RE: [PRR] Questions on passenger Sharks

I have used Bill Kachel's style of catenary with very good results on my Schuylkill Div. layout. Bill gave an excellent talk and handed out a pamphlet on building PRR catenary several years ago at a Phila. Chp. meeting which got me hooked. Bill's system is fairly easy to build and results in a very strong and realistic catenary sys. It's also very inexpensive to make being made up of piano wire, soldering rod and 100 code rail. This was my very first attempt at building catenary and I found it not too difficult to do.You can see a few pictures of it on Jerry's site under Model Railroads. Unfortunately, I will be moving soon and the layout will be coming down. Charles Chandler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG1s Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:42:17 -0400 Dear Bruce and Ed.: I use "H" brass detail shapes for up-front cat, 3/16" square bronze rod for middle distance and anything, including coat hanger metal, for the background more than 4' away. You can't see the lack of detail anyway and it gets cheaper. I use code 100, code 70 and code 55 rail upside down for the cross pieces and high voltage and signal wire carriers, with 1/32 brass wire for braces. My trolley and contact wire is doubled .0015 piano wire silver soldered at 2 inch intervals to form a 1/32 inch vertical gap between wires. I stagger the horizontal running gaps between the individual pieces of piano wire for strength. I make up about 25 feet of trolley wire at a time and string it from the crosspieces. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" To: Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG1s > Bruce, > > Tried it with Plastruct H girders. In the proper scale size, they were > way too flexible, even without wire. To stop the excessive flexibility, > You would have to go way over scale. > Did not like the looks of them. > Ended up using brass shapes, solder & wire. Did it on an assembly line > basis and it was easier than it sounds. > > Regards, > > Eddie > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > > > > I have thought about plastic, but I worry about long term > > durability with the tension of the catenary....will the posts slowly bend? > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 11:43:22 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] HO PRR Catenary Gregory said, >Your answer to rigidity characteristics is piano wire. Actually yes, the Bill Kachel handbook agrees; Bill specifies "1/32 steel music wire" for the trolley wire. My question: is music or piano wire just plain steel? Won't it rust? How best to solder it? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 17:06:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] John Prophet's Passing From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" This afternoon, at a Northern Central Chapter meeting, I learned that John Prophet passed away last Tuesday. John was a co-founder of the PRRT&HS and is often known as "the guy who carried car batteries trackside to power his recording equipment". Many of us today enjoy the fruits of his labor, in the form of the steam recordings (CD's, LP's) available from the Society. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 23:29:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Branchline X43c CK Andy Miller seems to be at the center of much debate of late... trouble maker... 3^) Let me say this, I was ask my opinion nearly a year ago on the subject whether the roof color was black and was quoted to from PRR spec's of post 1954 on the roof treatment, my recommendation was and still is not to release the cars in general PRR paint with straight Black roofs, there is no hard evidence that the cars prior to the X56 were left unpainted with the exception to the leased cars received from General American that were also painted "hunter green". Let's not ignore all of the photos we see of red roofs and abandon what we know for a few photos of what we believe. Please read on... Rick writes : prrhistorian@adelphia.net writes: << Here is a great response I received from Branchline Trains on their reason to simulate a black roof with red overspray from the side. It's nice to see the research they did for the car. Rick ------- Bill Schneider repsonds... <> In private post with Bill I have ask show me don't tell me... And to date I have seen one B&W photo "chip" of which I have a full copy and one reference to an overhead shot taken in the late 50's or early sixties on a float. This information comes to them from Ed Hawkins and I can't dispute his paper trail but I can't validate it either. Show me the photos taken at Altoona be the PRR, they have to be there... which I read to say... "as we inturpert" < that the roofs and frames were black with whatever overspray came up from the sides. If you have a copy of Morning Sun's "NY Harbor RR's in Color" check out the bottom picture on the back cover to see what I mean. It shows either an X29G or X46 40' boxcar (its a down-on aerial shot, so the sides are hard to see), what I believe is an X53 50' plug door and an X31 40' boxcar, all with black roofs with ragged red edges. This was a very common paint treatment with many car builders at the time and is the way that our circle keystone X43's are being delivered. We have duplicated the overspray on the roof and the underside of the roofwalk as it would have been on the real cars. FWIW, PRR built cars seem to have red roofs, and repainted cars show red roofs up until the mid to late 1950's. After that time unpainted asphaltum-colored (we'll call it black!) roofs became more common. Certainly many cars built and delivered in the late plain keystone scheme of the '60's had this treatment if the roofs were painted at all. Check out pg 53 of the PRR Color Guide - Vol 2 from Morning Sun of you have it handy. Hope this answers your question. Bill Schneider Branchline Trains >> I have gone through all the color guides and many personal slides and what I see is red roofs and as the car seem to fall in disrepair their red roof weather and the asphaltum seems to show through. I use the example of page 54 and 55 in the color guide where is the black ? I believe exactly opposite of most... as the cars went back to the shops to be repainted and if the roof did not leak, the roof was not likely painted and the overspray was allowed to fall as it may on the roof as the guy painting it was on the ground painting it not on the roof. Has anyone ever seen the spray gun they used to paint a car? It is not the same as one that is used for an automobile... you know as these cars were received on the property they were photographed and those photos were archived and at least the shot I have of the X44 show the roof to be red when received in Altoona to be photographed, now why would these cars be any differnet. Again I ask show me the photos in Altoona of the roof or do I need to order the prints and do the foot work? If you like the way they have presented the roof well fine, but for me it is just a preweathered roof the needs the side weathered to match. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 01:07:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR R50B Hey Yuze Gize, I can confirm that even though Walthers did not show the R50B in Chicago over the weekend at the hobby Show it was there. I hear, and can not confirm, but it will be "even better"as it was put to me. Ted, this is why I didn't want to see Sunshine get involved so late in the game. Special thanks need to go out to Bob Johnson at the PRRT&HS for his quiet work on the project. Hhhhmmmmm, what do we really need next? I know they have the data on they were looking for in the CB&Q caboose for sure... hhhmmmm 3^) Enjoy... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 10:51:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Web Site From: Jerry Britton A bit of good news, I suppose... Broadway Limited has done a major update to their web site. When you click on the Catalog link, all the info is there for the T1's, E7's, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited Web Site Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:15:43 -0500 At the MRIA show this weekend in Chicago, Broadway Limited displayed three Hudsons. Two of the three were operating, and the gentleman who manned their booth operated the one engine's sound system. The only thing I found annoying about the model (aside from its prototype heritage) was that one could see light in the smoke box, since the model has a fiber optics type headlight. They had a rather glossy brochure of their future releases. M1a's and M1b's in several road numbers. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 9:52 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Web Site A bit of good news, I suppose... Broadway Limited has done a major update to their web site. When you click on the Catalog link, all the info is there for the T1's, E7's, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 11:39:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses From: Jerry Britton Selley Finishing Touches (Bowser) will ship four varieties of HO scale dog houses in about two weeks. There are photos on my web site... merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Alco PAs Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:13:17 -0400 Lister's, I am building a set of Alco PAs. My local hobby shop has some undec versions for me to use. 21250 UND(ML&45 NB) 21609 UND(ML&DB 45 BD) 21631 UND(ML&DB ORIG # NB) 21650 UND(ML ORIG#BD) Are any of these useable for the PRR. I don't have the Mainline Modeler article readily available. I am modeling around 1955. TIA Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:43:51 -0400 OK who else besides me saw this and thought of a place to put Rover. Boy did I get a shock when I went to Jerry's site. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:39 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses Selley Finishing Touches (Bowser) will ship four varieties of HO scale dog houses in about two weeks. There are photos on my web site... merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 15:52:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses From: Jerry Britton On 9/9/02 3:43 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > OK who else besides me saw this and thought of a place to put Rover. Boy > did I get a shock when I went to Jerry's site. > Okay, maybe I should have said "Tender Dog Houses"!!! I'm not sure what all classes would have used these styles -- perhaps someone can chime in here -- but I know the I1's did. The J's had the wider dog house which I think was sometimes called the "three man doghouse". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:08:19 -0400 The 1923 original dog house was wooden. In 1928, instead of the wooden dog house being completely redone due to the elements beating on them, they were sheathed with metal. In 1934, the all metal dog house came. Depending on where the locomotive was operated, the extended roof was for areas of operation under electrification. Notice the contours on the roofs. The wooded and wood sheathed have a single arc roof. The later metal has a compound arc. The radius of the roof line near the sides of the structure are much sharper than the radius at the center portion of the roof. These dog houses are prototypically correct. Note that these dog houses appear long before the much larger dog houses found on J class locomotives with the 3 portholes. They did last till the very end. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 3:53 PM To: Chany, Christopher; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses On 9/9/02 3:43 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > OK who else besides me saw this and thought of a place to put Rover. Boy > did I get a shock when I went to Jerry's site. > Okay, maybe I should have said "Tender Dog Houses"!!! I'm not sure what all classes would have used these styles -- perhaps someone can chime in here -- but I know the I1's did. The J's had the wider dog house which I think was sometimes called the "three man doghouse". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses Jerry, Looks like the dog houses are suitable for H, I, L, M and the N Classes....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:20:02 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses >On 9/9/02 3:43 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > >> OK who else besides me saw this and thought of a place to put Rover. Boy >> did I get a shock when I went to Jerry's site. Jerry retorts, >Okay, maybe I should have said "Tender Dog Houses"!!! > >I'm not sure what all classes would have used these styles -- perhaps >someone can chime in here -- but I know the I1's did. The J's had the wider >dog house which I think was sometimes called the "three man doghouse". I dunno, sign of a true SPF...I KNEW Jerry meant tender dog houses... As for these models, its really the tender and not the loco, right Jerry ;^) Bottom line is that the early 210 class tenders had the one man wooden doghouses, and these were at some point sheathed in metal. Subsequently, all steel doghouses were used. One-man doghouses appeared on tenders of classes 90F82 (I1), 110F75 (L1), 130F82 (I1), 210F75 (M1), 210F82 (I1), 250F75 (M1). Note that a number of these classes of tender received three-man doghouses as well over their histories. As always, work from photos! Of course, I'm working from memory here, so feel free to chine in with corrections! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:04:00 -0500 From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Journal If anyone is interested, I just entered a complete (16 volume) set of Pennsy Journals on ebay. Jerry, I hope this message does not violate any list rules. Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 22:38:43 -0500 Finally--we have needed these for a long time. Adding to the classes that Bruce listed: > > One-man doghouses appeared on tenders of > classes 90F82 (I1), 110F75 (L1), 130F82 (I1), 210F75 (M1), 210F82 (I1), > 250F75 (M1). Note that a number of these classes of tender received > three-man doghouses as well over their histories. As always, work from > photos! Of course, I'm working from memory here, so feel free to chine in > with corrections! > (I1) 90F82, 110F82, 130F82, 210F82 (riveted), 210F82a and b (welded), and 250F82 (L1) 90F75, 110F75, 130F75 (maybe--anybody seen a photo?) (M1) 110F75, 130F75, 210F75 (riveted), 210F75a and b (welded), 250F75 (M1a and b) 210F75 (riveted), 210F75a and b (welded), 250F75 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:44:47 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses Don't feel badly, I made the same assumption since Shelly usually makes SCENIC details. I suppose a tender doghouse could be used for a very tall, large breed --or for a loco riding Dalmatian. Jim McDaniel, part owner of 5 Delmarva dogs of assorted backgrounds, but no doghouses of either kind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:58:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale Dog Houses From: Jerry Britton On 9/10/02 7:44 AM, James L. McDaniel (jlmcdaniel@esva.net) wrote: > Don't feel badly, I made the same assumption since Shelly usually makes > SCENIC details. I suppose a tender doghouse could be used for a very > tall, large breed --or for a loco riding Dalmatian. > I personally would have expected it to be a Cal Scale part, or else Bowser. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI M1 sound file Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:07:38 +0000 I just visited the BLI site and listened to the M1. The steam cound is ok but the whistle is way off in my opinion. I thought the M1's had either the banshee single note or the three tone like the K's. Is it me or them? By the way, they are now saying 10/02 shipment on the NYC engine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M1 sound file Norm, M1's had the 3 chime. The sound file isn't that bad for a digital copy. It is recognizable as a PRR Whistle. Whistle sounds often varied due to pressure available at the time and or surroundings and condition of the whistle itself. ...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 16:59:22 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] RR reference collection for sale Hello, everyone, A friend of mine has asked me to see if anyone is interested in purchasing his collection of rr magazines, videos, and slides. Available are the following: MODEL RAILROADER 1940-1993 RMC 1951-96 MODEL TRAINS 1951, 1955-61 NMRA BULLETIN 1950-56, 1963-85 Magazines are in spring-bound binders and a few have signs of dampness but there is no damage to them. VIDEOS (VHS) - There are 38 titles on 21 tapes, mostly copies of commercial tapes SLIDES - there are 983 slides, about 2/3rds of which are commercial (Blackhawk, etc.) and the rest taken by my friend (for example, many oh his shots of the collection at St. Louis). There are about 23 different rr subjects, many including steam. The asking price for the whole collection is $1120. My friend can do the delivery for buyers within a 300 mile radius of Chicago. If you have any questions, please contact me off-list. Thanks! George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco PAs Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:29:22 -0400 Chris Chany asked: I am building a set of Alco PAs. My local hobby shop has some undec versions for me to use: 21250 UND(ML&45 NB) 21609 UND(ML&DB 45 BD) 21631 UND(ML&DB ORIG # NB) 21650 UND(ML ORIG#BD) Are any of these useable for the PRR? I don't have the Mainline Modeler article readily available. I am modeling around 1955. I would start with 21650, Undecorated (Mars Light, Original numberboards, no dynamic brakes). Pennsy AP-20's didn't have Mars Lights; however I think the undecs come with an extra plain nose door - check the parts package that comes with the model. I recommend the original numberboard version as they'll be easier to remove and fill - you'll need the Cal Scale standoff numberboards (190-443) if you're modeling 1955. Get a copy of Greg Martin's article which appeared in the December 2000 and January 2001 issues of Mainline Modeler - he modeled 5759A and 5758B as they appeared in 1960 and 1961, so (as always) you might need to vary detail placement depending on which locomotive you model in 1955. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:07:41 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] John Prophet's Passing Jerry @ Pennsyrr wrote: >This afternoon, at a Northern Central Chapter meeting, I learned that John >Prophet passed away last Tuesday. > >John was a co-founder of the PRRT&HS and is often known as "the guy who >carried car batteries trackside to power his recording equipment". Many of >us today enjoy the fruits of his labor, in the form of the steam recordings >(CD's, LP's) available from the Society. > > Like many people on this list I should imagine, I was very saddened at John's passing. When I think back to my formative years in the hobby as a teenager there are certain people, both modellers and historians, whose published works were the guiding influence that carried me forward. In 1993 I found myself once again at the bottom of the learning curve and looking again for inspiration when I switched to modelling the Pennsy, and John's wonderful film captured in the Pennsy Glory III video was exactly what was needed to spur me on. People such as John never know how many lives they touch and we owe them a great debt. I wish I could have met him personally. Rest in peace. -- Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Fall Keystone Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:18:21 -0400 Listers, Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? I also think Chuck has finally run out of recipes because I believe that raisin pie is the same as Pennepicure pie which I think is one of the first recipes he ever published. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:29:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone From: Jerry Britton On 9/11/02 8:18 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official > publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I > have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there > is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a > complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > With regard to the cover, it is a nice piece of work. But did anyone else catch the "artist's license faux pas"? The passenger train is eastbound on number one track, which is correct. However, the freight that is coming west across the tracks through the crossovers into Enola presents a problem. It obviously had to wait for the eastbound passenger train to clear before crossing over. Since the tail of the passenger train is still on the bridge, there is no way the freight could have waited for it to clear and then proceeded as far as it did in the amount of time elapsed...unless the passenger train is parked or going 1mph, or the freight goes from 0-60 in five seconds!!! Back to the wreck: They are trying to identify where this occurred. In the one shot, you can see a body of water downhill to the right. There are two tracks. Could this be somewhere on the "Port Road" (Columbia & Port Deposit Branch) with the Susquehanna River being the body of water? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:52:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Signals The recent discussion about catenary has proven so fruitful, I thought I'd chance a query about signals, position-light signals of course, and how to model them, in HO in my case. I know there have been posts from time to time about commercial suppliers, or specialists who exhibit their fantastic wares at meets; what is the current state of the art in position-light signals, may I ask? Is do-it-yourself fabrication feasible? Are there magazine articles, websites, or other information sources? My own armchair thoughts are that there seem to be lots of intriguing new LEDs (e.g. surface-mount devices) that might lend themselves to signal fabrication; this from perusing the DigiKey electronics catalog. So, before I reinvent the flanged wheel, where do we stand? In my own case, my railroad has plenty of interlockings, like most model roads; I've got block detectors installed for all blocks and interlocking sections; I have a home-brew computer control system (kinda like Chubb's CMRI) in place to control things; but no signals, yet! The electronics I can figure out, it's the signals I need. With this group I expect to hear at once about exquisite models already accomplished in Z scale! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:53:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals From: Jerry Britton On 9/11/02 8:52 AM, bobsin@nac.net (bobsin@nac.net) wrote: > The recent discussion about catenary has proven so fruitful, I > thought I'd chance a query about signals, position-light signals of > course, and how to model them, in HO in my case. > > I know there have been posts from time to time about commercial > suppliers, or specialists who exhibit their fantastic wares at meets; > what is the current state of the art in position-light signals, may I > ask? > Alkem Scale Models (http://www.geocities.com/bkempins/ASMMain/Main.html) produced awesome laser etched brass four track position light signal bridges and pole signals in N scale. Bernie has promised to release them in HO scale in the future. But they won't come cheap. The N scale signal bridge retails for $24.95. I'd bet the HO version would retail in the $40 range. But they are accurate! At the PRRT&HS convention a few years back, measurements were taken off of the actual signals at BANKS interlocking. If you are interested in these in HO, I suggest you visit the site and drop Bernie an e-mail telling him of your interest, and how many. That may get the project moving a bit faster. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:02:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals In a message dated 9/11/02 7:50:46 AM Central Daylight Time, bobsin@nac.net writes: << In my own case, my railroad has plenty of interlockings, like most model roads; >> I was just going to post this question, so your post was timely. On the subject of interlockings, I have a naive question. If a crossing is controlled by the Pennsy, PRR line has position lights in most cases. I have always assumed the other railroad's signals for the crossing would be their style, whatever that might be, searchlight, semaphore, etc. Am I correct? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:09:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals From: Jerry Britton On 9/11/02 9:02 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > I was just going to post this question, so your post was timely. On the > subject of interlockings, I have a naive question. If a crossing is > controlled by the Pennsy, PRR line has position lights in most cases. I > have always assumed the other railroad's signals for the crossing would be > their style, whatever that might be, searchlight, semaphore, etc. Am I > correct? > Yes, although there may be exceptions. The crews are trained to their own company's signal rules. The task of changing the aspect would be the same for the tower operator, regardless of the actual "appearance" of the signal. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:17:02 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone I had not noticed the particulars of the track assignments in that great painting, however I was curious about the Shadow Keystone box car and the exclusive use of steam, including the mainline passenger train. Is that period overlap possible? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 9/11/02 8:18 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > > > Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official > > publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I > > have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there > > is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a > > complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > > > With regard to the cover, it is a nice piece of work. But did anyone else > catch the "artist's license faux pas"? > > The passenger train is eastbound on number one track, which is correct. > However, the freight that is coming west across the tracks through the > crossovers into Enola presents a problem. It obviously had to wait for the > eastbound passenger train to clear before crossing over. Since the tail of > the passenger train is still on the bridge, there is no way the freight > could have waited for it to clear and then proceeded as far as it did in the > amount of time elapsed...unless the passenger train is parked or going 1mph, > or the freight goes from 0-60 in five seconds!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:34:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - eCommerce Web Hosting From: Jerry Britton Please pardon this brief interruption in our regularly scheduled programming... Desktop Solutions hosts a number of PRR web sites and numerous railroad lists. These costs are offset by banner advertising and web site hosting. Though there is no near term jeopardy in providing these services to the railroad community(*), we recently lost two web hosting customers and are looking to replace them. One company slowly went out of business due to ecomonic factors following 9/11, and another grew to the point that they had to take their web site in-house. So, I am looking for two (or more) web hosting customers to replace them. Are you looking for web site hosting? Or do you know someone who is? It doesn't have to be railroad related. My full eStore package I normally sell for $50 per month and allows an unlimited number of products to be listed, with no limit on disk space. Besides continuing to offer the above, I am going to offer a "basic" eCommerce package for $20 per month. It will have a limit of 25 products, but that may suffice for many home-based businesses. The eStore solution will link to a PayPal account that the business arranges and maintains. Once set up, all management functions of the eStore can be accomplished remotely via web browser. If this interests you, please contact me OFF-LIST. Thank you! (*) Merchandise Service (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) picks up the excess costs when web hosting and advertising fees do not cover the cost of providing these services. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:36:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone From: Jerry Britton On 9/11/02 9:17 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > I had not noticed the particulars of the track assignments in that great > painting, however I was curious about the Shadow Keystone box car and the > exclusive use of steam, including the mainline passenger train. Is that > period > overlap possible? > Yes. Shadow Keystone was first applied in spring 1954. Steam lasted until 1957. On my layout of fall 1954, I use approximately one Shadow Keystone car to 20 Circle Keystone cars. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals I have a catolog from Integrated Signal Systems. They have some nice PRR PL signals in HO (led). I saw thier PL signals at a rail hobby show and they looked really good. ISS also makes PRR dwarf signals but I've heard they are off scale wise. No one makes a PRR pedestal type signal. ISS will build the signals and relays to fit your layout needs. They also have signal bridges. Sorry, no "Lines West" style bridges. All of the PRR aspects can be done. Even the Red "Snake Eyes" Stop aspect (1954) found on home signals and some automatic PLs can be done. We haven't reached that point on the layout I'm working on but it's going to be interesting. Ain't nothing standard about signals on the "Standard Railroad of the World". Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:49:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals From: Jerry Britton On 9/11/02 2:44 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net (zootowerprr@webtv.net) wrote: > Even the Red "Snake Eyes" Stop > aspect (1954) found on home signals and some automatic PLs can be done. That's a new reference to me, tell me more! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:25:20 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals List- Anybody know URL address for Integrated Signal Systems. Google & others could not locate it. TIA Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > I have a catolog from Integrated Signal Systems. They have some > nice PRR PL signals in HO (led). I saw thier PL signals at a rail hobby > show and they looked really good. ISS also makes PRR dwarf signals but > I've heard they are off scale wise. No one makes a PRR pedestal type > signal. > ISS will build the signals and relays to fit your layout needs. > They also have signal bridges. Sorry, no "Lines West" style bridges. > All of the PRR aspects can be done. Even the Red "Snake Eyes" Stop > aspect (1954) found on home signals and some automatic PLs can be done. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > List- > > Anybody know URL address for Integrated Signal Systems. > Google & others could not locate it. No URL, they aren't on line. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:29:15 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals John asks: >I know there have been posts from time to time about commercial >suppliers, or specialists who exhibit their fantastic wares at meets; >what is the current state of the art in position-light signals, may I >ask? Oregon Rail Supply http://www.oregonrail.com/ has position light signals with plastic heads and LEDs. They market two versions, incorrectly called "permissive" (#117) for the all yeller one, and "absolute" for the one with red stop aspects (#118). These are listed for $16.95 each (You can get them for less). Three of the signal heads (no circut board, no LEDS) are $7.95 A diode logic board (#124, $ 4.95) is needed to run the signal and goes between it and your detection system. Once you buy one of these, you can make the rest (or so the owner of ORS told me ). In addition, IIRC Bachman makes a pretty decent plastic 4 track PRR signal bridge, so you can build LOTS of signals, pretty cheap (much cheaper than ISS or NJB). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Signals Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:29:13 -0400 If Al Werner is still on this list I hope he will speak up. His PRR layout uses ISS signals. The coolest thing is to turn all the lights off in the train room, send a train around and watch the signals change. According to Al the signals are very expensive. At one time he had offered to do a clinic at a PRRT&HS convention on using these signals (and the pitfalls involved) but I guess there wasn't much interest. Jerry I don't think they are in N scale. Also did not see an ad for them in the issues I had handy of MR & RMC. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:32:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" What I would like to find out is how the wreck occurred. While the I-1 is off the tracks, the M-1 or whatever it is looks like it was demolished. Maybe it just illustrates how tough the I-1 engines were. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "Chany, Christopher" >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Fall Keystone >Date: Wed, 11 Sep, 2002, 7:18 > > Listers, > > Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official > publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I > have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there > is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a > complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > > I also think Chuck has finally run out of recipes because I believe that > raisin pie is the same as Pennepicure pie which I think is one of the first > recipes he ever published. > > > Chris Chany > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:38:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Bruce F. Smith wrote: > get them for less). Three of the signal heads (no circut board, no LEDS) > are $7.95 A diode logic board (#124, $ 4.95) is needed to run the signal > and goes between it and your detection system. Once you buy one of these, > you can make the rest (or so the owner of ORS told me ). In addition, Good luck buying one. His own web site shows it as out of stock. > IIRC Bachman makes a pretty decent plastic 4 track PRR signal bridge, so > you can build LOTS of signals, pretty cheap (much cheaper than ISS or NJB). Bachmann makes a 2 track bridge. IHC makes a 4 track bridge but it's rather narrow for 4 tracks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:46:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Regarding ISS signals . They do not have a web site. The owner Walt Peters passed away about 2 months ago. The company still exists and day to day ops had been transferred before Walter's passing. I would highly reccomend their signals to any PRR modeler. Their PRR dwarf while slightly oversize due to the size of leds available is a beaut. The mail address is po box 25451 Rochester NY 14625-0451 -=--------------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:00:26 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals All: I don't know which is correct, but when you put a ISS PRR position light beside a ORS PRR position light (both HO scale), the ISS is noticably larger... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:58:34 +0000 The fall Keystone will arrive here in the Chicago area in two to three weeks. For some reason they ship it around the world by surface mail. Can't wait to see what you are all talking about. > What I would like to find out is how the wreck occurred. While the I-1 is > off the tracks, the M-1 or whatever it is looks like it was demolished. > Maybe it just illustrates how tough the I-1 engines were. > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > > ---------- > >From: "Chany, Christopher" > >To: PRR-Talk LIST > >Subject: [PRR] Fall Keystone > >Date: Wed, 11 Sep, 2002, 7:18 > > > > > Listers, > > > > Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official > > publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I > > have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there > > is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a > > complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > > > > I also think Chuck has finally run out of recipes because I believe that > > raisin pie is the same as Pennepicure pie which I think is one of the first > > recipes he ever published. > > > > > > Chris Chany > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:12:06 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Bruce, Bachmann's PRR signal bridge is very nice & delicate but is only 2 track. I combined two of them to make a 4 track. I added Oregons PRR signal heads to them. Someday I'll get to the leds. Look pretty good even without the lights. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: In addition, > IIRC Bachman makes a pretty decent plastic 4 track PRR signal bridge, so > you can build LOTS of signals, pretty cheap (much cheaper than ISS or NJB). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:17:37 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: HO scale PRR 2 & 4 Track Signal Bridges] Bernard Kempinski wrote: > >Dear Bernie, > > > >There is a desperate need for HO scale PRR 2 & 4 Track Signal Bridges > >and Position Light Pole Signal Kits. Prefer prewired & RTR myself, but kits > would be better than > >nothing. > > > >Thanks, > >Eddie > > > >Dr. Edmond L. Freed > >PRRT&HS # 156 > >Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > Eddie, > > Thanks for the note. I had plans to do an HO version of our PRR > signal bridge, but I am concerned that it would cost so much that it > would be prohibitive. A 4 Track signal bridge would cost around $60 > retail. > > Have you looked at the Oregon Signal products? > > Take care, > BCK > > -- > ================================================================================ > Bernard Kempinski > ALKEM Scale Models > 6056 Estates Drive > Alexandria, VA 22310 > > See the whole Alkem Scale Models product line including new HO Scale > Large Cantilevered Signal Bridges, diesel and freight car detailing > sets, super realistic corn, C&O and PRR signal bridges, and N scale > heavy industrial detail parts at the following web site: > http://www.alkemscalemodels.com > ================================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals The red "Snake Eyes" stop aspect can be found on the top arm of a "Home signal" system wide after 1954. The red stop aspect (two red lenses with center amber out) were easier to see in bad weather. PRR train crews and tower operators gave the name "Snake Eyes" to the new red lenses when they were first tested between Zoo and Paoli. There are photos in Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940s-1950s" of some auto PLs with "snake eyes" on page 96. Most automatic PLs and "Approach Lit" PLs have the regular three amber "stop" aspect. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals I didn't get to go to any of the layout tours at the last PRR convention in Harrisburg but I understand that there was a layout with working PL signals. Did anybody on this list see them? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:42:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > I didn't get to go to any of the layout tours at the last PRR > convention in Harrisburg but I understand that there was a layout with > working PL signals. Did anybody on this list see them? Yes, but if I'm not mistaken, the owner reads the list and can no doubt comment himself;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:54:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals --part1_10d.17ebff56.2ab131ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have certainly appreciated all of this information regarding the signal models that are available out there. Unfortunately, I am not an electronics wizard. I can handle the basics but building my own circuit boards and other detection system components is daunting to me. I know there have been articles and books published on signals but has there ever been one that focuses on PRR position-light modeling? If not, perhaps some of you more knowledgeable and experienced modelers could put such an article together for The Keystone. I know I would sure benefit from it! Chris Baker PRRT&HS member #1918 --part1_10d.17ebff56.2ab131ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have certainly appreciated all of this information regarding the signal models that are available out there. Unfortunately, I am not an electronics wizard. I can handle the basics but building my own circuit boards and other detection system components is daunting to me.

I know there have been articles and books published on signals but has there ever been one that focuses on PRR position-light modeling? If not, perhaps some of you more knowledgeable and experienced modelers could put such an article together for The Keystone. I know I would sure benefit from it!

Chris Baker
PRRT&HS member #1918 --part1_10d.17ebff56.2ab131ac_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:55:38 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: james six [mailto:jamessix@ameritech.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:26 PM To: railroadmodeler@yahoogroups.com; PCModeler@yahoogroups.com; NYCmodeler@yahoogroups.com; NW-NKP-WAB@yahoogroups.com; ACL-SALmodeler@yahoogroups.com; southernmodeler@yahoogroups.com; APPALACHIANcoalhauler@yahoogroups.com Subject: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Folks, After waiting a few years we have finally created a group for Pennsy modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. Like the ACL-SAL, CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is specific to modelers of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its equipment. IT is for the exchange of modeling information, resource material and camaraderie among those modeling the P-Company. Please do not expect this new group to become an overnight success. Should you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a friendly, informative and beneficial experience for all. Group page for PENNSYmodeler http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PENNSYmodeler/ To subscribe send a message to: PENNSYmodeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and follow the simple instructions. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 2nd Annual Lake Region Railroad Modeler's Meet, October 18th-20th, 2002 (formerly Cleveland PM-meet) Contact jamessix@ameritech.net Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:23:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group From: Jerry Britton On 9/11/02 7:55 PM, "Andy Cich" wrote: > After waiting a few years we have finally created a group for Pennsy > modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. Like the ACL-SAL, > CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is specific to modelers > of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its equipment. IT is for the > exchange of modeling information, resource material and camaraderie among > those modeling the P-Company. > > Please do not expect this new group to become an overnight success. Should > you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a friendly, > informative and beneficial experience for all. > Just what we need, one more fxxxing group to duplicate content on. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:32:56 -0400 Why yet another group, and at Yahoo, to boot???? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" To: "PRR-Modeling" ; "Prr-talk" Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:55 PM Subject: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > -----Original Message----- > From: james six [mailto:jamessix@ameritech.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:26 PM > To: railroadmodeler@yahoogroups.com; PCModeler@yahoogroups.com; > NYCmodeler@yahoogroups.com; NW-NKP-WAB@yahoogroups.com; > ACL-SALmodeler@yahoogroups.com; southernmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > APPALACHIANcoalhauler@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > Folks, > > After waiting a few years we have finally created a group for Pennsy > modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. Like the ACL-SAL, > CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is specific to modelers > of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its equipment. IT is for the > exchange of modeling information, resource material and camaraderie among > those modeling the P-Company. > > Please do not expect this new group to become an overnight success. Should > you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a friendly, > informative and beneficial experience for all. > > Group page for PENNSYmodeler > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PENNSYmodeler/ > > To subscribe send a message to: PENNSYmodeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and > follow the simple instructions. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > 2nd Annual Lake Region Railroad Modeler's Meet, October 18th-20th, 2002 > (formerly Cleveland PM-meet) > Contact jamessix@ameritech.net > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:12:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > I know there have been articles and books published on signals but has there > ever been one that focuses on PRR position-light modeling? If not, perhaps > some of you more knowledgeable and experienced modelers could put such an > article together for The Keystone. I know I would sure benefit from it! Chris Ruhl wrote an article which was published in "Clear Block", the publication of the Railway Signaling Technical and Historical Society, on how he signaled his own layout with position light signals. I can probably dig up the contact information for that organization if you need it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:24:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals --part1_31.2cd69883.2ab146b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks - I would sure appreciate that. Chris Baker --part1_31.2cd69883.2ab146b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks - I would sure appreciate that.

Chris Baker --part1_31.2cd69883.2ab146b9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:01:04 -0700 On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:55:38 -0500 I have just one question... WHY? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ "Andy Cich" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: james six [mailto:jamessix@ameritech.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:26 PM > To: railroadmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > PCModeler@yahoogroups.com; > NYCmodeler@yahoogroups.com; NW-NKP-WAB@yahoogroups.com; > ACL-SALmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > southernmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > APPALACHIANcoalhauler@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > Folks, > > After waiting a few years we have finally created a group > for Pennsy > modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. > Like the ACL-SAL, > CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is > specific to modelers > of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its > equipment. IT is for the > exchange of modeling information, resource material and > camaraderie among > those modeling the P-Company. > > Please do not expect this new group to become an > overnight success. Should > you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a > friendly, > informative and beneficial experience for all. > > Group page for PENNSYmodeler > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PENNSYmodeler/ > > To subscribe send a message to: > PENNSYmodeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and > follow the simple instructions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:01:30 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: [PRR] PRR catenary Hello, I'm a bit late getting in this conversation but anywho... Model Memories (mentioned previously) does has some great looking PRR cat in HO and S scale. (I have some of the S scale product) As for the comments regarding the use of non-metal wires. One problem is the pressure of the pans pushing upward will distort all but the very taught wire. My trick to minimize the distortion is to attach a small thread (fishing fly makers thread) between the base and the top of the pan. This prevents the pan from extending beyond a determined point. Then hang the cat just below that point. This trick also helps in tunnels. The string keeps the pans from fully extending so i don't need to wire the tunnels. A great wire to use is Tinned Stainless Steel. Strong, stiff and solders easily. It also comes in very fine sizes. A friend in NJ has used this on his HO layout and it is gorgeous! I have a on-line copy of the Bill Kachel paper and would be happy to send it to anyone or better yet, have someone post it. It's a 1M byte pdf file. Regards, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:11:29 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Railfest O gauge Boxcar and Info Greetings to the list, I wanted to let everyone know that the Railroaders Memorial Museum will have a limited edition Railfest 2002 Boxcar available this year. There will be 150 Tuscan and 150 Brunswick Green Cars available. Cost will be $29.95 each. If anyone is interested in pre-ordering one please email me. I have several Pre orders already. They will go fast at Railfest I am certain. Along that same line, I have seen the mock up of the Railfest 2002 T- shirt and it is spectacular. It is taken from an origional Oil painting that Bennett Levin had commissioned of his E8's entitled "Ready to Go II" There will also be a similar Railfest Pin available. Bennett has donated a Print of this painting which is being raffled off at Railfest. It is setting in the Lobby of the Museum. Please make sure you check it out. It's a Beauty!!! It's BIG too! Keystone Restoration and Preservation is busy laying Rail in the yard for the 1.5 inch Scale Pennsy Live Steam Loco's that will grace our yard at Railfest. We have an I1 G5 B6 M1b and a K4s that will be running. An E6 will be on display in Building B as well as the Tender of a soon to be completed T1!! There will be a large N gauge Model RR display in Building B as well as soem Railroadania vendors. For complete info on Railfest 2002 check out the Museums Website railroadcity.com , also click on the link to the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS's website for even more detailed info and photos of some of the Live Steamers. You can also call the museum at (814) 946-0834. Excursion tickets are also available. Both HSC excursions and some Long distance excursions will be available including an all new overnight trip to Pittsburgh with some Rare milage around Pittsburgh. There will be Shuttles to the Curve and to a Train meet at the Jaffa Mosque. A chicken BBQ will happen on Saturday Oct 5th which is included in your $8 Railfest Admission. Make sure to mark those calander for Saturday October 5th and Sunday October 6th to be in Altoona. Hope to see many of you guys there. We can really use the support!! Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Board of Directors Chairman Railfest Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:19:16 -0400 Andy, Why????, we already have the following: PRR-Talk, Prototype PRR and Modeling PRR covered PRR Fax Prototype PRR PRR-Modeling, The modeling side of PRR Talk PRR-Freight, covering freight car questions regarding the PRR, although it has been awhile since I have seen a post from this list. Garret Rea is it still active? PRR-Cyber, Cyber Division of the PRR, although I haven't received a post from here in a long time either. And these are only the ones I am subscribed too, there probably are more. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" To: "PRR-Modeling" ; "Prr-talk" Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 7:55 PM Subject: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > -----Original Message----- > From: james six [mailto:jamessix@ameritech.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:26 PM > To: railroadmodeler@yahoogroups.com; PCModeler@yahoogroups.com; > NYCmodeler@yahoogroups.com; NW-NKP-WAB@yahoogroups.com; > ACL-SALmodeler@yahoogroups.com; southernmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > APPALACHIANcoalhauler@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > Folks, > > After waiting a few years we have finally created a group for Pennsy > modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. Like the ACL-SAL, > CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is specific to modelers > of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its equipment. IT is for the > exchange of modeling information, resource material and camaraderie among > those modeling the P-Company. > > Please do not expect this new group to become an overnight success. Should > you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a friendly, > informative and beneficial experience for all. > > Group page for PENNSYmodeler > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PENNSYmodeler/ > > To subscribe send a message to: PENNSYmodeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and > follow the simple instructions. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > 2nd Annual Lake Region Railroad Modeler's Meet, October 18th-20th, 2002 > (formerly Cleveland PM-meet) > Contact jamessix@ameritech.net > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:22:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Wreck shown in Keystone Hello all, The wreck shown in the Autumn 2002 issue of "The Keystone" occurred on March 6, 1937 at Blairsville, PA. Train VC-1, hauled by I1s 4662 and M1 6905, derailed and resulted in the death of the engineman and severe injury to the fireman of the M1. The ICC report stated that the cause of the accident was not definitely determined, but was believed to be caused by a broken rail. To read the ICC report go to: http://specialcollections.tasc.dot.gov/scripts/ws.dll?login& site=dot_railroads and look up document no. 2156. Best regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Signals Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:25:07 -0400 For PL dimensions, you can check the diagrams on my site... In this case here's a few to check: http://prr.railfan.net/signalstandards/standards.cgi?plan=S-401-E http://prr.railfan.net/signalstandards/standards.cgi?plan=S-400-E http://prr.railfan.net/signalstandards/standards.cgi?plan=S-406-A (some others and other revs are also available too...) I just measured the ORS signal I have and it's a little oversized. The drawings list the diameter of the target at 4'4". ORS is 4'8" I think the worst aspect of the ORS heads is that the heads are almost 11 scale inches thick to hide the LEDS and PCB. They're pretty good for background signals though... I don't have an ISS head to measure... Anyone know if the Signal Depot is still around? They made amazing (but pricey) signals a few years ago but I haven't heard anything about them in quite a while.. Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Warner Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:00 PM To: PRR Talk List Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals All: I don't know which is correct, but when you put a ISS PRR position light beside a ORS PRR position light (both HO scale), the ISS is noticably larger... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:30:02 -0400 Why not another list.. It is just another group for people to advertise on. The past few weeks, a few have been doing just that on prr talk. Too bad there is not 1 list and only 1 list for the dissemination of information. Seems people always need to get their personal financial plugs in. Just talk, save the sales pitch for someone else. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of billd@gci-net.com Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:01 PM To: Andy Cich; PRR-Modeling; Prr-talk Cc: jamessix@ameritech.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:55:38 -0500 I have just one question... WHY? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ "Andy Cich" wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: james six [mailto:jamessix@ameritech.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:26 PM > To: railroadmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > PCModeler@yahoogroups.com; > NYCmodeler@yahoogroups.com; NW-NKP-WAB@yahoogroups.com; > ACL-SALmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > southernmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > APPALACHIANcoalhauler@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > Folks, > > After waiting a few years we have finally created a group > for Pennsy > modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. > Like the ACL-SAL, > CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is > specific to modelers > of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its > equipment. IT is for the > exchange of modeling information, resource material and > camaraderie among > those modeling the P-Company. > > Please do not expect this new group to become an > overnight success. Should > you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a > friendly, > informative and beneficial experience for all. > > Group page for PENNSYmodeler > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PENNSYmodeler/ > > To subscribe send a message to: > PENNSYmodeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and > follow the simple instructions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:35:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary --part1_180.d8d3ba2.2ab1659c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to get a copy of Bill's paper. Chris Baker PRRT&HS member #1918 --part1_180.d8d3ba2.2ab1659c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to get a copy of Bill's paper.

Chris Baker
PRRT&HS member #1918 --part1_180.d8d3ba2.2ab1659c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Signals List, ISS signals are pricey too,but they custom build the signal head to match the prototype aspects. Every type of PRR PL aspect you can think of, they will build. But then again, It's all up to you. Some folks just want a simple auto-block system. Or an all out full interlocking with flashing "med-approach" signals. I remember seeing an article about PRR signals in the Keystone a few years back. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:53:22 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Boyd Tower downed -- but not by terrorists Long out of service, the remains of BOYD Tower were demolished today, as reported by Steve Simpson, local model railroader. BOYD Tower stood at MP 104.9 from Indianapolis, the crossing of the B&O at the north end of ex-PRR's Jeffersonville IN yard, once protecting the Pennsy Indianapolis-Louisville Main Line from B&O trains running between North Vernon IN and New Albany IN, where they crossed the Ohio River and terminated using the facilities of the Kentucky and Indiana Terminal RR (K&IT). Speaking historically, this was a crossing of the Jeffersonville RR/Jeffersonville Madison & Indianapolis/Pittsburgh Cincinnati Chicago & St. Louis (PRR Lines Southwest)/PRR/PC/Conrail with the New Albany branch of the Ohio & Mississippi/B&O Southwestern/B&O/Chessie System/CSX. A little-known PRR line called "The Ordnance Spur" also left the north end of the yard here and paralleled the B&O to an interlocking at WATSON, where it crossed the B&O's Jeffersonville line and entered the Indiana Army Ammunition Plant at Charleston IN. Aerial views showed a large number of spurs inside the government plant at one time, but naturally this trackage was off limits to railfans. As the late James J.D. Lynch wrote in his Keystone article on the Indianapolis Division, BOYD Interlocking and Block Station ("BO" Tower) was rebuilt in 1928. The structure was probably reinforced concrete, but the exterior was faced in brick above the foundation. Its Standard 'A' mechanical interlocking had a 24-lever frame, with about 2/3rds of the frame in use. In Pennsy days, the operator job was filled by a PRR man, but B&O forces maintained the plant. Some years ago the Ordnance spur was lifted (the Ammo plant was downsized), and Conrail sold the Indianapolis line to the L&I (reporting marks LIRC). LIRC, owned by the same company that operates the New York & Atlantic on Long Island, has now rebuilt the Jeffersonville Yard for today's needs, essentially eradicating all remaining PRR features except for the 1961 metal-building engine house. BOYD was decommissioned some time back, and vandals had reduced it to a bombed-out (but still roofed) shell. The interlocking machine was replaced by a simple, manually operated high bar signal standing at the crossing - this kind of signal is a yellow rectangular blade with small lamps hanging from each of the lower corners. It's pivoted in the middle, and mounted at the top of a pole, with an actuating rod that sets it either horizontal (stop) or diagonal (dare to cross). This signal is locked with a switch lock so that crews can move it in their favor. I'm not positive, but I think it's probably the same bar signal that used to protect the PRR from the Milwaukee Road at C.M.St.P.&P. Crossing at MP58.4. This crossing of the Milwaukee (yes, the Milwaukee only missed Louisville and Cincinnati by about 50 miles each) was once known as SI Junction, for a Milwaukee predecessor called the Southern Indiana Railroad (not to be confused with today's SIR at Speed IN, MP 98.3). In the Louisville area, BOYD tower is survived only by CLAGG (a CTC plant still operating at MP 109.1 at the south end of the PRR Ohio River Bridge) and WATSON (still standing but closed when the PRR Ordnance Spur was pulled up). These were the last three historic towers standing on any railroad in Louisville. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:53:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Boyd Tower downed -- but not by terrorists --part1_c6.1188aab3.2ab169b2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Long out of service, the remains of BOYD Tower were demolished today, as reported by Steve Simpson, local model railroader. BOYD Tower stood at MP 104.9 from Indianapolis, the crossing of the B&O at the north end of ex-PRR's Jeffersonville IN yard, once protecting the Pennsy Indianapolis-Louisville Main Line from B&O trains running between North Vernon IN and New Albany IN, where they crossed the Ohio River and terminated using the facilities of the Kentucky and Indiana Terminal RR (K&IT). Speaking historically, this was a crossing of the Jeffersonville RR/Jeffersonville Madison & Indianapolis/Pittsburgh Cincinnati Chicago & St. Louis (PRR Lines Southwest)/PRR/PC/Conrail with the New Albany branch of the Ohio & Mississippi/B&O Southwestern/B&O/Chessie System/CSX. A little-known PRR line called "The Ordnance Spur" also left the north end of the yard here and paralleled the B&O to an interlocking at WATSON, where it crossed the B&O's Jeffersonville line and entered the Indiana Army Ammunition Plant at Charleston IN. Aerial views showed a large number of spurs inside the government plant at one time, but naturally this trackage was off limits to railfans. As the late James J.D. Lynch wrote in his Keystone article on the Indianapolis Division, BOYD Interlocking and Block Station ("BO" Tower) was rebuilt in 1928. The structure was probably reinforced concrete, but the exterior was faced in brick above the foundation. Its Standard 'A' mechanical interlocking had a 24-lever frame, with about 2/3rds of the frame in use. In Pennsy days, the operator job was filled by a PRR man, but B&O forces maintained the plant. Some years ago the Ordnance spur was lifted (the Ammo plant was downsized), and Conrail sold the Indianapolis line to the L&I (reporting marks LIRC). LIRC, owned by the same company that operates the New York & Atlantic on Long Island, has now rebuilt the Jeffersonville Yard for today's needs, essentially eradicating all remaining PRR features except for the 1961 metal-building engine house. BOYD was decommissioned some time back, and vandals had reduced it to a bombed-out (but still roofed) shell. The interlocking machine was replaced by a simple, manually operated high bar signal standing at the crossing - this kind of signal is a yellow rectangular blade with small lamps hanging from each of the lower corners. It's pivoted in the middle, and mounted at the top of a pole, with an actuating rod that sets it either horizontal (stop) or diagonal (dare to cross). This signal is locked with a switch lock so that crews can move it in their favor. I'm not positive, but I think it's probably the same bar signal that used to protect the PRR from the Milwaukee Road at C.M.St.P.&P. Crossing at MP58.4. This crossing of the Milwaukee (yes, the Milwaukee only missed Louisville and Cincinnati by about 50 miles each) was once known as SI Junction, for a Milwaukee predecessor called the Southern Indiana Railroad (not to be confused with today's SIR at Speed IN, MP 98.3). In the Louisville area, BOYD tower is survived only by CLAGG (a CTC plant still operating at MP 109.1 at the south end of the PRR Ohio River Bridge) and WATSON (still standing but closed when the PRR Ordnance Spur was pulled up). These were the last three historic towers standing on any railroad in Louisville. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_c6.1188aab3.2ab169b2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Long out of service, the remains of BOYD Tower were demolished today, as reported by Steve Simpson, local model railroader. BOYD Tower stood at MP 104.9 from Indianapolis, the crossing of the B&O at the north end of ex-PRR's Jeffersonville IN yard, once protecting the Pennsy Indianapolis-Louisville Main Line from B&O trains running between North Vernon IN and New Albany IN, where they crossed the Ohio River and terminated using the facilities of the Kentucky and Indiana Terminal RR (K&IT). Speaking historically, this was a crossing of the Jeffersonville RR/Jeffersonville Madison & Indianapolis/Pittsburgh Cincinnati Chicago & St. Louis (PRR Lines Southwest)/PRR/PC/Conrail with the New Albany branch of the Ohio & Mississippi/B&O Southwestern/B&O/Chessie System/CSX. A little-known PRR line called "The Ordnance Spur" also
As the late James J.D. Lynch wrote in his Keystone article on the Indianapolis Division, BOYD Interlocking and Block Station ("BO" Tower) was rebuilt in 1928. The structure was probably reinforced concrete, but the exterior was faced in brick above the foundation. Its Standard 'A' mechanical interlocking had a 24-lever frame, with about 2/3rds of the frame in use. In Pennsy days, the operator job was filled by a PRR man, but B&O forces maintained the plant.

Some years ago the Ordnance spur was lifted (the Ammo plant was downsized), and Conrail sold the Indianapolis line to the L&I (reporting marks LIRC). LIRC, owned by the same company that operates the New York & Atlantic on Long Island, has now rebuilt the Jeffersonville Yard for today's needs, essentially eradicating all remaining PRR features except for the 1961 metal-building engine house.

BOYD was decommissioned some time back, and vandals had reduced it to a bombed-out (but still roofed) shell. The interlocking machine was replaced by a simple, manually operated high bar signal standing at the crossing - this kind of signal is a yellow rectangular blade with small lamps hanging from each of the lower corners. It's pivoted in the middle, and mounted at the top of a pole, with an actuating rod that sets it either horizontal (stop) or diagonal (dare to cross). This signal is locked with a switch lock so that crews can move it in their favor. I'm not positive, but I think it's probably the same bar signal that used to protect the PRR from the Milwaukee Road at C.M.St.P.&P. Crossing at MP58.4. This crossing of the Milwaukee (yes, the Milwaukee only missed Louisville and Cincinnati by about 50 miles each) was once known as SI Junction, for a Milwaukee predecessor called the Southern Indiana Railroad (not to be confused with today's SIR
In the Louisville area, BOYD tower is survived only by CLAGG (a CTC plant still operating at MP 109.1 at the south end of the PRR Ohio River Bridge) and WATSON (still standing but closed when the PRR Ordnance Spur was pulled up). These were the last three historic towers standing on any railroad in Louisville.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_c6.1188aab3.2ab169b2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 22:53:59 -0500 I got my Keystone today--not bad coming all the way down to the Gulf Coast. Jerry offered: > > The passenger train is eastbound on number one track, which is correct. > However, the freight that is coming west across the tracks through the > crossovers into Enola presents a problem. It obviously had to wait for the > eastbound passenger train to clear before crossing over. Since the tail of > the passenger train is still on the bridge, there is no way the freight > could have waited for it to clear and then proceeded as far as it did in the > amount of time elapsed...unless the passenger train is parked or going 1mph, > or the freight goes from 0-60 in five seconds!!! > I am not sure of the track layout on the bridge, but could the M1 and its train have been held on the bridge waiting for clearance into Enola, maybe waiting for 4628 to clear? Could the passenger have come onto the bridge on number two track then have crossed over to number one track behind the freight? It appears that one of the headend cars has a light colored stripe along the side; assuming this is a Missouri Pacific baggage car, can this daylight train in the fall of 1954 be identified? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 23:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group I guess the "PRR Modeler" group on yahoo wasn't good enough. Kind of like those T.V. show spin offs! Last time I checked, almost 1000 railroad groups on Yahoo. About 15 to 20 PRR groups. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:27:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone In a message dated 9/11/02 11:10:32 PM Central Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << It appears that one of the headend cars has a light colored stripe along the side; assuming this is a Missouri Pacific baggage car, can this daylight train in the fall of 1954 be identified? >> I apologize for a quick answer from memory. Most of the videos I have seen of the MOP (actually usually T&P in MOP colors) express cars identified the train as the Duquesne. I seem to remember a video of the St. Louisan running in daylight in the area, too: coming from the Southwest gateway with a lot of headend cars, that would be a possible candidate as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 00:32:09 -0400 I want to start my own group. PRR snappers. Anyone interested. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:55 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group I guess the "PRR Modeler" group on yahoo wasn't good enough. Kind of like those T.V. show spin offs! Last time I checked, almost 1000 railroad groups on Yahoo. About 15 to 20 PRR groups. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:18:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group From: Jerry Britton On 9/11/02 11:55 PM, "zootowerprr@webtv.net" wrote: > I guess the "PRR Modeler" group on yahoo wasn't good enough. Kind of > like those T.V. show spin offs! > Last time I checked, almost 1000 railroad groups on Yahoo. About 15 > to 20 PRR groups. > And Yahoo's days are numbered. You can read about it once a week on CNN/fn. Over the past few years the advertising support waned. So they started putting ads in the posts UNLESS the group paid to opt out. Now when you try to access the message archives, there's something like a 1 in 4 chance you'll go to an ad page first. Just this week many Yahoo list owners indicated that Yahoo announced they would be reducing disk space allotted to groups, forcing them to thin their archives or risk losing a massive amount of files at random. Yahoo Groups was once eGroups, which was once OneList. I suspect Yahoo Groups will either die in the next 12 months, or be absorbed by Microsoft. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:20:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group From: Jerry Britton On 9/12/02 12:32 AM, "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." wrote: > I want to start my own group. PRR snappers. Anyone interested. > > How about... PRR-Couplers PRR-Enginement PRR-Brakemen PRR-Conductors PRR-MoW PRR-NonRevenue PRR-Passenger PRR-Varnish Etc Etc Etc --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 07:15:31 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PENNSYmodeler-group Jim, There are already two groups dedicated to modeling the PRR - PRR-Talk and PRR-Modeling in addition to PRR-FAX and PRR-Signals. Frankly I find your efforts to be counter productive. Why not join the other two and post what you want. Adding another group with the same interests will do nothing but create multiple posts or not give wide coverage to important issues because of the excess splintering. Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:08:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Hello Chris, My layout was on the tour this year and I have operating signals. I use Digitrax DCC system to control my layout but I use Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system to control my signals. I made this decision because of the ability to literally provide any signaling condition without having to build a lot of specialized boards and run miles of interconnecting wires. I use an old out-dated computer system that would otherwise make a good boat anchor. The program is written in QBASIC and is very flexible. With DCC the realism of operation is enhanced by the removal of toggle or rotar switches for block control. Now the crews must observe and obey the signals while making their runs. I too have the knowledge to build my own boards and I actually did design a system using TTL chips but when I tried to install the system, the wiring soon overwhelmed my desire to continue. I did a lot of research on commercial systems before I made the decision to use the C/MRI. Most commercially designed systems are very rigid in their performance, especially if you require something more complex than a simple ABS system. If they have the flexibility you need, they become cost-prohibitive the more complex the system. When I need to make a change, all I need to do is modify the software and add the new signal or aspect. In the case of the new signal, I need to run three output wires (one for each position) and one input wire for the new detector (if needed). Bruce Chubb has written two books for the construction and use of his system. The original system appeared in a series of articles in Model Railroader in the 1980's. It used computer systems of the times like the Apple, Commodore, and an early IBM PC. The Handbook has tons of information on prototype signaling and very good information on how to set up PRR position lights and their meanings. The cost was easy to handle since the system can be built in stages and the support from both Bruce, the C/MRI group on Yahoo and Don Wood of EaseeeInterfaces (he sells kits and assembled boards for the system) is fantastic. The system can also control room lighting, turntable operation, automated staging, and there is even a throttle module that provides a non-DCC throttle system. I am sure there are other systems out there that work fine for others but the C/MRI is being used on some pretty famous layouts like Rick Rideout's (RIX RAX) The Granite Mountain, Bill Gruber's Reading Railroad, and of course, the Sunset Valley of Bruce Chubb. All of these layouts have been featured in Allen Keller's Great Model Railroad videos. I would be happy to provide info off-list to anyone interested. Regards, Nick Kulp Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals From: Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:54:20 EDT I have certainly appreciated all of this information regarding the signal models that are available out there. Unfortunately, I am not an electronics wizard. I can handle the basics but building my own circuit boards and other detection system components is daunting to me. I know there have been articles and books published on signals but has there ever been one that focuses on PRR position-light modeling? If not, perhaps some of you more knowledgeable and experienced modelers could put such an article together for The Keystone. I know I would sure benefit from it! Chris Baker PRRT&HS member #1918 http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:19:04 -0400 Oh, and you don't get constant sales pitches, and constant spam, from Yahoo????? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: ; "Andy Cich" ; "PRR-Modeling" ; "Prr-talk" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:30 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > Why not another list.. It is just another group for people to advertise on. > The past few weeks, a few have been doing just that on prr talk. Too bad > there is not 1 list and only 1 list for the dissemination of information. > Seems people always need to get their personal financial plugs in. > > Just talk, save the sales pitch for someone else. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > billd@gci-net.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:01 PM > To: Andy Cich; PRR-Modeling; Prr-talk > Cc: jamessix@ameritech.net > Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:55:38 -0500 > > I have just one question... > > WHY? > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > "Andy Cich" wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: james six [mailto:jamessix@ameritech.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:26 PM > > To: railroadmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > > PCModeler@yahoogroups.com; > > NYCmodeler@yahoogroups.com; NW-NKP-WAB@yahoogroups.com; > > ACL-SALmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > > southernmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > > APPALACHIANcoalhauler@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > > > > Folks, > > > > After waiting a few years we have finally created a group > > for Pennsy > > modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. > > Like the ACL-SAL, > > CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is > > specific to modelers > > of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its > > equipment. IT is for the > > exchange of modeling information, resource material and > > camaraderie among > > those modeling the P-Company. > > > > Please do not expect this new group to become an > > overnight success. Should > > you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a > > friendly, > > informative and beneficial experience for all. > > > > Group page for PENNSYmodeler > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PENNSYmodeler/ > > > > To subscribe send a message to: > > PENNSYmodeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and > > follow the simple instructions. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:28:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group From: Jerry Britton On 9/12/02 8:19 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > Oh, and you don't get constant sales pitches, and constant spam, from > Yahoo????? > There is a policy on PRR talk (see http://lists.dsop.com/prr/) that sales posts are permitted on the 1st and 15th of every month. This was by popular request some time ago, though it is seldom used. There have been some For Sale post outside of these dates and I have contacted the individuals off-list and they have apologized. There are over 600 people on the list, so it is impossible to block off-date ads unless we switch to moderating the list, which causes undue delays. I often relate new product announcements, but that is all they are. Although my signature links to my store, which anyone is entitled to do, the actual content doesn't say "go here to reserve". I often relate the suggested retail price. I think sometimes people make assumptions that I am advertising, but in fact I am not. Don't make the assumption! Reserve wherever you want, whether LHS (Local Hobby Store) or online. I appreciate the business I get, but I try to walk the line with regard to list content. Then there is the rare occasion, as I did yesterday, where, as Listmaster, I post a TANGENT thread that somehow relates to operations. In all fairness, I don't think you get them all that often. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:47:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals We're getting lots of good information here, thanks to all! As far as signal heads, the consensus seems to be that there are good commercial units that have been on the market; they seem however either to be custom and expensive, or possibly no longer available for the cheaper units. Some comments have noted the difficulty in some designs of combining a printed circuit board (which apparently forms the target itself) and making it realistically thin; I always suspected this would be a problem. I had hoped that someone would come forward with a do-it-yourself design for signal heads; the technology for LEDs for example keeps advancing, so there may be new LEDs that could be closer to scale size. As far as wiring, I imagine that once a position-light signal is reduced to wire leads that generate the various aspects (e.g. clear, approach, stop) the wiring would be pretty much as for a color light system, for which there have been many articles and books. How to get to that wire-lead-per-aspect point could be done on the target itself, with a PC board forming the target and which puts LEDs in series; or all the leads could be brought off the signal to a separate PC board, but I suspect eight leads from a typical target would be difficult and messy. This is a position-light unique problem, because of all the lamps on a single target. The logic for the system can be done in a traditional, distributed fashion using logic boards; or by a central computer, as in the Bruce Chubb C/MRI system. Both types of systems have been written about extensively. I myself decided on the centralized approach, and although my system is similar to and inspired by Bruce's great work, I redesigned the hardware and the protocols used for the remote boards to communicate with the central computer. This can easily become a hobby in itself, and no shame to anyone who decides he or she doesn't want to put in many hours becoming a computer geek! But the dream of a working signal system is very compelling, and how can we not have position light signals in it! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:55:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Signals at MG From: Jerry Britton MG was built during WW II and saw heavy use at that time. In later years, several sources report that MG was only in service for six months of the year. I am assuming the warmer months, but that doesn't matter for my query. What occurred to me last evening is, when MG was out of service, how were the interlocking signals handled? As far as I know, they weren't remoted to anywhere. All tracks would have been left straight through. I can't imagine that the stretch from Kittaning Point all the way to AG was considered one occupancy block for normal ABS. Anyone know? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:09:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PENNSYmodeler-group Jim, As always, the erudite Al Buchan says it well. I think this is bad idea, and I have to wonder why you would create yet another PRR group when there are already groups devoted to PRR-modeling or which cover the subject well. I will keep my PRR modeling discussion on PRR-talk, if you do not want them on RM-Group. Happy Rails Bruce >Jim, > >There are already two groups dedicated to modeling the PRR - PRR-Talk >and PRR-Modeling in addition to PRR-FAX and PRR-Signals. > >Frankly I find your efforts to be counter productive. Why not join the >other two and post what you want. Adding another group with the same >interests will do nothing but create multiple posts or not give wide >coverage to important issues because of the excess splintering. > >Thanx. > >Al Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 09:38:43 -0400 Sorry- I am not on a yahoo list. YYYAAAAHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:19 AM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.; billd@gci-net.com; Andy Cich; Prr-talk Cc: jamessix@ameritech.net Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Oh, and you don't get constant sales pitches, and constant spam, from Yahoo????? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: ; "Andy Cich" ; "PRR-Modeling" ; "Prr-talk" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:30 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > Why not another list.. It is just another group for people to advertise on. > The past few weeks, a few have been doing just that on prr talk. Too bad > there is not 1 list and only 1 list for the dissemination of information. > Seems people always need to get their personal financial plugs in. > > Just talk, save the sales pitch for someone else. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > billd@gci-net.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 10:01 PM > To: Andy Cich; PRR-Modeling; Prr-talk > Cc: jamessix@ameritech.net > Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:55:38 -0500 > > I have just one question... > > WHY? > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > "Andy Cich" wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: james six [mailto:jamessix@ameritech.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 6:26 PM > > To: railroadmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > > PCModeler@yahoogroups.com; > > NYCmodeler@yahoogroups.com; NW-NKP-WAB@yahoogroups.com; > > ACL-SALmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > > southernmodeler@yahoogroups.com; > > APPALACHIANcoalhauler@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group > > > > > > Folks, > > > > After waiting a few years we have finally created a group > > for Pennsy > > modelers. The new group is the PENNSYmodeler-group. > > Like the ACL-SAL, > > CofG, Chessie, NYC, and SOU groups, this new group is > > specific to modelers > > of the once great PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD and its > > equipment. IT is for the > > exchange of modeling information, resource material and > > camaraderie among > > those modeling the P-Company. > > > > Please do not expect this new group to become an > > overnight success. Should > > you join with us we ask that you work to help make this a > > friendly, > > informative and beneficial experience for all. > > > > Group page for PENNSYmodeler > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PENNSYmodeler/ > > > > To subscribe send a message to: > > PENNSYmodeler-subscribe@yahoogroups.com and > > follow the simple instructions. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 08:55:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Wreck shown in Keystone From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I spent some time examining the photos using a magnifying glass last evening. My initial reaction when I first opened the magazine was that it was a rear-ender. Second reaction was rolled or broken rail because I've seen engines down here sort of in the position of the I-1 when one of the cars they were hauling went over. Couple of things about the photos. 4662 must have been shopped recently, or it was very wet. The boiler jacket is shiny. This is one of the best photos I've seen for differentiating the color of the smokebox and the jacket. It it was not a rear-ender, they must have been going at a pretty good clip and stopped dead to produce the violent-looking wreck. In the top photo, at the right, under the upturned gondola, is the back end of a tender. Given the condition of the cab on the M-1 I'm surprised both crewmen were not killed. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Wreck shown in Keystone >Date: Wed, 11 Sep, 2002, 22:22 > > Hello all, > > The wreck shown in the Autumn 2002 issue of "The Keystone" occurred on March > 6, 1937 at Blairsville, PA. Train VC-1, hauled by I1s 4662 and M1 6905, > derailed and resulted in the death of the engineman and severe injury to the > fireman of the M1. > > The ICC report stated that the cause of the accident was not definitely > determined, but was believed to be caused by a broken rail. To read the ICC > report go to: http://specialcollections.tasc.dot.gov/scripts/ws.dll?login& > site=dot_railroads and look up document no. 2156. > > Best regards, > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:58:35 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] PENNSYmodeler-group Al, I'll have to publicly agree with your comments regarding the potentially divisive nature of another list. While it's certainly true that a person can join any or all of the numerous lists, personally I ain't goin' there, as they say. I find also that many of the 'proprietory' lists tend to be dominated by a relative handful of members. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of opinion, but I don't find it overly appealing. I'm content with PRR-FAX, PRR-Modeling, PRR-Talk and PRR-C&A Division at this time. Oh, on the side, I'm rather glad when folks mention goods for sale online...it gives us half a chance to dodge around the ebay game, or to keep us informed of new products. Best regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:03:17 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group Let's not overlook: PRR-DGLE Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:08:59 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals at MG Jerry asks >MG was built during WW II and saw heavy use at that time. > >In later years, several sources report that MG was only in service for six >months of the year. I am assuming the warmer months, but that doesn't matter >for my query. > >What occurred to me last evening is, when MG was out of service, how were >the interlocking signals handled? As far as I know, they weren't remoted to >anywhere. All tracks would have been left straight through. I can't imagine >that the stretch from Kittaning Point all the way to AG was considered one >occupancy block for normal ABS. Jerry, Depends on how you define "block" ;^) Way back in July 2000 I stimulated a very similar discussion based on SMITHS on the A&S. On the A&S SMITHS represented a temporary block station that was occaisionally opened to allow "wrong track running" for repairs etc. Located halfway between PORT and PARK it reduced the amount of track that needed to be converted to single track running. However, the section from PARK to PORT was not just two blocks. There were quite a few signaled "blocks" over that distance. In fact, a quick survey of the A&S track charts indicates that there were 15 additional signals along the route! As Mark said way back when...this allowed "fleeting" of trains. Theoretically, that one section of the A&S could be occupied by as many as 16 trains! The signals ONLY worked for running in the correct direction (rule 251?). When SMITHS was closed, the signals at SMITHS reverted from being home signals to block signals and their "normal" aspects changed from STOP to CLEAR. Bill Strassner scanned an actual order opening SMITHS dated September 22, 1952. If you would like I can email you a copy off list. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:13:41 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group How about a PRR-groups group where we can talk about talking on PRR groups, like this thread is doing. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 9/12/02 12:32 AM, "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." wrote: > > > I want to start my own group. PRR snappers. Anyone interested. > > > > > How about... > > PRR-Couplers > PRR-Enginement > PRR-Brakemen > PRR-Conductors > PRR-MoW > PRR-NonRevenue > PRR-Passenger > PRR-Varnish > Etc > Etc > Etc > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:18:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Multiple PRR Lists From: Jerry Britton On 9/12/02 10:58 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > I'll have to publicly agree with your comments regarding the potentially > divisive nature of another list. While it's certainly true that a person can > join any or all of the numerous lists, personally I ain't goin' there, as they > say. > I find also that many of the 'proprietory' lists tend to be dominated by a > relative handful of members. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of > opinion, but I don't find it overly appealing. > I'm content with PRR-FAX, PRR-Modeling, PRR-Talk and PRR-C&A Division at this > time. With no bashing of PRR-FAX intended (honestly, referenced as base event), it was the first splinter group to form. I know PRR-talk and PRR-FAX share a lot of subscribers. The best threads end up posted to both lists. If that were all there was to it, we could deal with it. But all of the splinter groups that have formed since then really have been detrimental to the cause. Consider if the archives of the PRRT&HS were kept at a dozen different locations. Okay, so you go to Chuck Blardone's basement to check out the paint and lettering diagrams for that gondola you want to kitbash. Then it's off to Bob Johnson's den for photos. Then Walt Keely's family room for diagrams. Oops, gotta go visit Al Buchan for truck details. What, Al's gone to Europe for three months? See what I'm getting at? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 10:37:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Multiple PRR Lists From: Roger P Hensley Ok, I wasn't going to say anything, but I see the relative point as mulitiple lists and keeping up with them. For a while, I was subscribing to a large number of Conrail, NYC, PC and a large variety of modeling lists. It's just too much. I have dropped almost all of them except the original lists. Most of the regional modeling lists and specialized modeling lists have also gone by the wayside. It the idea is to replace PRR-talk, or CR-talk or... ...well, it won't work any more than it has worked for many others. That's the way I see it. I'll go back to sleep now. On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:18:20 -0400 Jerry Britton writes: > On 9/12/02 10:58 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > But all of the splinter groups that have formed since then really > have been detrimental to the cause. Consider if the archives of > the PRRT&HS were kept at a dozen different locations... Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 11:53:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought From: Jerry Britton Bear with me a moment...I have a proposal that is totally in "draft mode"... PRR-talk was founded in 1996 and has over 600 members. PRR-FAX was founded in 1999 and has over 500 members. Those are the givens and I am not suggesting change (but maybe there's hope for a later change). I just did a search on Yahoo Groups and there are 25 results for "PRR". Many of them are specific to branches, signaling, modeling, modeling a specific scale, etc. A lot of them formed so that their content would be very specific, to make it more amiable for the subscriber. But, and I don't think I am off-base here, most of their subscribers still subscribe to the general topic lists as well. So they still receive the same amount of content, but from multiple sources. Has anything been gained? But something is definitely lost. By having multiple lists, with perhaps somewhat differing specific subject matters, you lose the advantage of having a master archive...which would benefit all. I would propose to the listmasters of all of the splinter groups to CONSIDER merging back into one of the two main groups (FAX vs. talk). Then kill off the old groups from Yahoo Groups as they merge. This would make things much easier for newbies when they search the Internet for "PRR", as well as make things much more organized for all. The biggest obstacle I see is personal egos. Hopefully that could be overcome for the betterment of all. I have not contacted any of the splinter group listmasters (though some may be on this list). What do you think of the concept? Al, perhaps you could run this by Mr. S. I don't know if he's lurking on this list or not, but perhaps he could merge some of his own splinter groups back into FAX. Are there reasons why they need to be different? PLAN B: The other thing I might suggest is a shared archive. My database server subscribes to all of my own lists. The server has its own e-mail address which is subscribed to the list. It checks for mail every few minutes. This is how the PRR-talk and other lists at my site have their archives updated almost instantly. A potential, partial solution would require the cooperation of all the listmasters. I could create a new e-mail address that would be subscribed to ALL of the lists (FAX and talk, etc.). All of the postings would go into one common, searchable database. The database would be reading from the lists only, and never posting, so that would not be an issue. We could also import the existing archives of all lists into the new shared archive. Heck, we'd probably have close to 50,000 messages! On the search page for the shared archive we could have links to the lists themselves, with a credit note for the operator of the list. Any opinions on either of the above scenarios? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] inexpensive generic signals Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:59:35 GMT Good Morning List, In regards to inexpensive block signals, our local club has made some for a total cost of $1.50 each. Although they are not "PRR" they are a good generic version. We made them from the Bachmann #42101 signals. If you want to check out how we made them you can find the instructions at: http://www.avmrc.av.org/projects/signal.html One change I would make would be to change the green LED to the top and red to the bottom. I really don't know why we did it the way we did. OOPS!!! the the only thing that comes to mind. We are powering them off the Tortoise switch machines to show turnout position. Very simple, if the trunout is in your favor, you get a green, if not you have red. We also use one to show if the turnout you are approaching is main line (green) or set for the siding (red over green). Any questions of additional info, reach me off-line. Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:45:37 -0700 In general, the red top-arm aspect was not used in electrified territory. Overbrook was an exception. Somewhere on the A&S I recall as being an exception too. Might have been Cola. Overbrook was changed back to 3-light yellow in the very early '70s. The interlocking diagram of Overbrook on Mark's site has a note to this effect. I've seen general orders and I very dimly recall seeing red dwarfs at overbrook too. Thus a restricting on the dwarf was one white light diagonally above a red. John -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals The red "Snake Eyes" stop aspect can be found on the top arm of a "Home signal" system wide after 1954. The red stop aspect (two red lenses with center amber out) were easier to see in bad weather. PRR train crews and tower operators gave the name "Snake Eyes" to the new red lenses when they were first tested between Zoo and Paoli. There are photos in Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad, 1940s-1950s" of some auto PLs with "snake eyes" on page 96. Most automatic PLs and "Approach Lit" PLs have the regular three amber "stop" aspect. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:16:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Laurie Cooper wrote: > In general, the red top-arm aspect was not used in electrified territory. > Overbrook was an exception. Somewhere on the A&S I recall as being an > exception too. Might have been Cola. Overbrook was changed back to 3-light > yellow in the very early '70s. The interlocking diagram of Overbrook on > Mark's site has a note to this effect. I've seen general orders and I very > dimly recall seeing red dwarfs at overbrook too. Thus a restricting on the > dwarf was one white light diagonally above a red. I have a vague recollection that one or 2 timetables later the dwarf modifications were withdrawn, but I won't stake anything to that. If I can find the reference I will share it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 12:17:46 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone Chris asks >Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official >publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I >have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there >is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a >complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? I don't hink anyone has tackled this yet so I will, and then Al can correct my mistakes . Derricks carried their own supply of coal and water on board. I have seen a number of shots of wreck trains, including the one I like to refer to from the now fallen Fallen Flags pages, that did not have a tender. In fact I wonder if the presence of a tender, especially in the steam era, was unusual, since most shots with tenders appear to be more modern. It can be hypothesized that either the clean up was such that internal supplies would suffice, or that train lacked a tender and supplies would be borrowed from the locomotive crew. As diseasels replaced steam, the later was no longer possible and discarded tenders were used to provide fuel and water. For this reason I am contemplating removing the tender from my wreck train. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:40:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: signals One last comment I had forgotten to mention. My friend, Larry Reynolds, has a beautiful PRR layout and models a portion of the Pittsburgh Division that includes Horseshoe Curve. He does not yet have working signals installed but a few of his crew members assisted him by applying small colored paper dots to his static signal bridges. This method did provide a very simple system that required neither fancy electronics, nor maintenance of any kind. The only problem was that after a few "signal changes" the dots fell off and had to be replaced. This system might not work for everyone but it took Larry several hours to discover the "system". We were only trying to help.... Kindest regards, Nick Kulp BTW his layout is merely a branchline of the famous and mighty Cornwall Railroad http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: signals Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:44:59 +0000 Your comment got my creative juices flowing. I wonder if a mechanical system could be developed Where the guts of the signal was a disk with yellow band. By shining a light through the band the signal positon could be determined. By rotating the disk the different aspects could be obtained. Could be a lot less wiring and controllable from a tortise motor or solenoid using a rod. HMMM! > One last comment I had forgotten to mention. My friend, Larry Reynolds, has a > beautiful PRR layout and models a portion of the Pittsburgh Division that > includes > Horseshoe Curve. He does not yet have working signals installed but a few of > his crew members assisted him by applying small colored paper dots to his static > signal bridges. This method did provide a very simple system that required > neither > fancy electronics, nor maintenance of any kind. The only problem was that after > a few "signal changes" the dots fell off and had to be replaced. This system > might not work for everyone but it took Larry several hours to discover the > "system". We were only trying to help.... > > Kindest regards, > Nick Kulp > > BTW his layout is merely a branchline of the famous and mighty Cornwall Railroad > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:22:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] inexpensive generic signals From: Roger P Hensley I am doing this for my railroad even as we speak except that I also use amber. It works very well, but you must be getting the LEDs for free because I can't begin to do it for $1.50 each. :-) On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:59:35 GMT howdy@qnet.com writes: > Good Morning List, > > In regards to inexpensive block signals, our local club has > made some for a total cost of $1.50 each. Although they > are not "PRR" they are a good generic version. We made > them from the Bachmann #42101 signals. If you want to > check out how we made them you can find the instructions > at: > http://www.avmrc.av.org/projects/signal.html Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: signals Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:50:17 -0400 Why doesn't Larry make a signal disc and put the 3 yellow painted dots on it. Put a bobby pin through the center yellow dot(paint the head of the pin) and rotate the disc according to the appropriate signal being transmitted. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Nick Kulp Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:41 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: signals One last comment I had forgotten to mention. My friend, Larry Reynolds, has a beautiful PRR layout and models a portion of the Pittsburgh Division that includes Horseshoe Curve. He does not yet have working signals installed but a few of his crew members assisted him by applying small colored paper dots to his static signal bridges. This method did provide a very simple system that required neither fancy electronics, nor maintenance of any kind. The only problem was that after a few "signal changes" the dots fell off and had to be replaced. This system might not work for everyone but it took Larry several hours to discover the "system". We were only trying to help.... Kindest regards, Nick Kulp BTW his layout is merely a branchline of the famous and mighty Cornwall Railroad http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals at MG Jerry & list...... MG Interlocking is remote from Pittsburgh. A lot of trains still use those cross-overs. And Norfolk Southern (like PRR,Penn Central. and Conrail) on a regular basis, yanks the couplers out on heavy westbounds. Those cross-overs come in real handy when that happens. I got a tour of ALTO tower a few years back and the tower op said that she (yes, a woman) work MG Tower in the winter months. When the heavy snows hit, she would go to Alto Tower to get picked up by a westbound. She still works Alto Tower to this day. You can hear her voice on the speaker mounted in the park at Horseshoe Curve. It was the late 1980s when Conrail replaced MG Tower with a box that sits right next to the tower. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:22:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals at MG On Thu, Sep 12, 2002 at 08:55:44AM -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: > MG was built during WW II and saw heavy use at that time. > > In later years, several sources report that MG was only in service for six > months of the year. I am assuming the warmer months, but that doesn't matter > for my query. > > What occurred to me last evening is, when MG was out of service, how were > the interlocking signals handled? As far as I know, they weren't remoted to > anywhere. All tracks would have been left straight through. I can't imagine > that the stretch from Kittaning Point all the way to AG was considered one > occupancy block for normal ABS. > > Anyone know? Jerry, I scanned the list, and it appears that Bruce replied by analogy. The signals at MG were fleeted when the place was closed. ONe does not really have that many choices, after all, in such a situation -- (1) fleet, (2) make provisions for a crew to operate the signals manually, or (3) have some other rule stating how to proceed. I'd be curious to know if (2) was ever used on a heavily used main line like the PRR. The example I can provide you of this is the "tilting target signal", several of which still exist in my present neck of the woods. These are generally present where branch lines cross branch lines, not on major lines. HOWEVER, note on the diagram of Alliance, O. on the Fort Wayne on my site - the crossing of the PFtW&C and the C&P (Cleveland main) is protected by a tilting trget! I am not able to check the diagrams right now, but I recall some weirdness in the arrangement of the FtW's interlockings at this point. Something like that the crossing itself was not interlocked, but there were interlockings immediately on either side of the crossing. (3) I also don't know, without again delving into the depths of my ETTs, if there are any examples of this on PRR main lines. I can tell you that I've seen Special Instructions to the effect: "if you can't get a signal at this point, pull forward so that your engine's front wheels are past the insulated joints, then wait 4 minutes, confirm that the crossing RR's signals are at Stop, then if no train is approaching, proceed across at Restricted Speed". OK, back to 1. Many (most?) towers that closed would fleet their signals. In essence, this takes an interlocking signal and makes it an automatic signal. On the NEC right now, the dispatchers will often fleet signals just so that they don't have to keep manually setting them up - i.e. when they have multiple similar movements. I've seen the Conrail dispatchers fleet signals through the former HUDSON interlocking on the C&P main as well. No, you don't create one huge block. First off, there are almost certainly automatic signals along both stretches of track on either side of the inter- locking. Let's say you have 3 interlockings in a row. Let's call them, say, OVERBROOK, BRYN MAWR, and PAOLI. BRYN MAWR is only open 1st and 2nd trick, closed 3rd. But - you have passenger trains and some freights running during 3rd trick, just not the Bryn Mawr Turn that needs intensive use of the interlocking at its namesake terminal city. From Overbrook to Bryn Mawr there are several blocks, then you have the Bryn Mawr interlocking and the following block, then you have several more blocks between there and Paoli. All are in use the usual way. The only difference is that, once the operator at Bryn Mawr normals all of his switches and fleets his signals (2 one way and 2 the other way) before he leaves for the night, the signal, once a train has dropped it to Stop, will progress back up through Stop-and-proceed, Approach, to Clear, ready for the next train. When the operator arrives in the morning, he takes the signals out of fleet, and you're back in business as usual. An interesting question, to which I don't know the answer is - when the signals are fleeted and the interlocking station is not manned, do interlocking rules still apply? Now, you may have been thinking about what would happen, when such a station is closed, if a train needed orders to run "wrong main". Or because part of the signal system went out. Since Bryn Mawr is closed and no one can control its switches or signals, one would be forced to create a manual block from Overbrook to Paoli. This being said, I do seem to recall other locations - don't ask me right now where, but it's all written up in the ETT - where, when the operator left, actual control of the interlocking reverted to some other tower. In such a case, the manual block running I just described would not be necessary for that entire distance. Hope this helps. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:43:38 -0400 All of this discussion is very interesting. I certainly hope my mailman finshes reading my copy soon so he can deliver it to my house. Frank Brua - Still waiting in Michigan -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone >Chris asks > >>Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official >>publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I >>have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there >>is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a >>complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > >I don't hink anyone has tackled this yet so I will, and then Al can correct >my mistakes . Derricks carried their own supply of coal and water on >board. I have seen a number of shots of wreck trains, including the one I >like to refer to from the now fallen Fallen Flags pages, that did not have >a tender. In fact I wonder if the presence of a tender, especially in the >steam era, was unusual, since most shots with tenders appear to be more >modern. It can be hypothesized that either the clean up was such that >internal supplies would suffice, or that train lacked a tender and supplies >would be borrowed from the locomotive crew. As diseasels replaced steam, >the later was no longer possible and discarded tenders were used to provide >fuel and water. For this reason I am contemplating removing the tender >from my wreck train. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: signals Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:50:38 -0400 Nick: The falling dots fell into the tender of J1 #6410. When the dots reached the screw they were conveyed into the firebox, heated to cherry red and blown out the stack onto the signal bridges. Now I have real red glowing signals. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Nick Kulp To: PRR-Talk Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: signals > One last comment I had forgotten to mention. My friend, Larry Reynolds, has a > beautiful PRR layout and models a portion of the Pittsburgh Division that includes > Horseshoe Curve. He does not yet have working signals installed but a few of > his crew members assisted him by applying small colored paper dots to his static > signal bridges. This method did provide a very simple system that required neither > fancy electronics, nor maintenance of any kind. The only problem was that after > a few "signal changes" the dots fell off and had to be replaced. This system > might not work for everyone but it took Larry several hours to discover the > "system". We were only trying to help.... > > Kindest regards, > Nick Kulp > > BTW his layout is merely a branchline of the famous and mighty Cornwall Railroad > http://www.igateway.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:27:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals at MG From: Jerry Britton On 9/12/02 6:11 PM, "zootowerprr@webtv.net" wrote: > MG Interlocking is remote from Pittsburgh. A lot of trains still > use those cross-overs. And Norfolk Southern (like PRR,Penn Central. and > Conrail) on a regular basis, yanks the couplers out on heavy westbounds. > Those cross-overs come in real handy when that happens. As this is a PRR list, we are generally speaking of PRR times (<1968) unless otherwise noted. I don't think MG was remoted from Pittsburgh until Conrail days, was it? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:29:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone From: Jerry Britton On 9/12/02 6:43 PM, "parkvarieties" wrote: > All of this discussion is very interesting. I certainly hope my mailman > finshes reading my copy soon so he can deliver it to my house. > Perhaps we will have discussed the entire issue before it gets to you! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:52:28 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re: signals --=====================_22968067==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is no longer a gag message and my apologies to the more serious members of the list. The idea below has some merit. A few years ago I remember an article in one of the magazines that used fiber-optic rods for N scale signals. The "lights were provided via a mechanical linkage with a colored lens gel used in photography and a "wig-wag" device that changed the color of the searchlight signal. The same principle could be used for position lights with the light source under the benchwork. The device is a real possibility using a Tortise machine and the Tomar three position semaphore linkage. Regards, Nick Kulp >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: signals >From: >Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:44:59 +0000 > >Your comment got my creative juices flowing. I wonder if a mechanical system >could be developed Where the guts of the signal was a disk with yellow band. >By shining a light through the band the signal positon could be >determined. By >rotating the disk the different aspects could be obtained. Could be a lot >less >wiring and controllable from a tortise motor or solenoid using a rod. HMMM! --=====================_22968067==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" This is no longer a gag message and my apologies to the more serious members of the list. The idea below has some merit. A few years ago I remember an article in one of the magazines that used fiber-optic rods for N scale signals. The "lights were provided via a mechanical linkage with a colored lens gel used in photography and a "wig-wag" device that changed the color of the searchlight signal. The same principle could be used for position lights with the light source under the benchwork. The device is a real possibility using a Tortise machine and the Tomar three position semaphore linkage.

Regards,
Nick Kulp

Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: signals
From: <ndbprr@att.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:44:59 +0000

Your comment got my creative juices flowing. I wonder if a mechanical system
could be developed Where the guts of the signal was a disk with yellow band.
By shining a light through the band the signal positon could be determined. By
rotating the disk the different aspects could be obtained. Could be a lot less
wiring and controllable from a tortise motor or solenoid using a rod. HMMM!

--=====================_22968067==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:16:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone From: prrq2 My mailman just finished reading my copy and delivered it to me today out here in Iowa. Now I can see what all the excitement is all about, another great issue! -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > From: "parkvarieties" > Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 18:43:38 -0400 > To: , "Bruce F. Smith" > Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone > > All of this discussion is very interesting. I certainly hope my mailman > finshes reading my copy soon so he can deliver it to my house. > > Frank Brua - Still waiting in Michigan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought Good idea Jerry......... But will it work. The "ego" thing will have to be squared away first. I must admit, I did start my own PRR group on Yahoo called "PRRCatenaryElectrics". I thought it was a good idea. Then I found out that "certain PRR listers" were upset that I started a list. Then you have the "official PRR list" war. I still don't know what's that all about! So many PRR fans with so many different interest. Some guys like steam, some like diesels, and some like electric. So many lists! I don't think it's bad thing to have a lots of PRR lists, But if you guys want a merger then lets do it. BUT IF WE DO MERGE, We are going to keep the catenary up and we are not rerouting any freights out of Waverly or Greenville Yards on to the Water Level Route. Long live the Red Team! :-) Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:41:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars --part1_127.16d2b073.2ab28e31_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've posted this question at railroad.net but got no reply so I thought I'd take a shot at it with you guys! :-) I have been doing some research on the P82/P85 and D82/D85 Budd-built cars ordered by the Pennsy mostly prior to WWII. I'm not talking about the cars that were purchased for through-service assignment to the Florida trains or the Southern Railway trains. AFAIK, those were always in natural stainless steel finish. (Well, okay. I know about the purple letterboards on the ACL-assigned cars!) The South Wind cars and the general-service equipment were delivered in Tuscan paint, some as early as 1938. According to my sources, the all-Tuscan paint schemes on the stainless steel cars started giving way in the early 1950's (1952?) to a natural stainless steel finish everywhere except the letterboards and numberboards, which were kept Tuscan. Later, the paint went away entirely. Unfortunately, all the photos I have of these cars show them completely painted in Tuscan until the mid-1960's (earliest photo evidence I have is 1964). Can anyone confirm for me the date when the Budd cars in question began giving up their Tuscan paint? Any photo sources? Thanks in advance for your help. Chris Baker PRRT&HS member #1918 --part1_127.16d2b073.2ab28e31_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've posted this question at railroad.net but got no reply so I thought I'd take a shot at it with you guys! :-)

I have been doing some research on the P82/P85 and D82/D85 Budd-built cars ordered by the Pennsy mostly prior to WWII. I'm not talking about the cars that were purchased for through-service assignment to the Florida trains or the Southern Railway trains. AFAIK, those were always in natural stainless steel finish. (Well, okay. I know about the purple letterboards on the ACL-assigned cars!)

The South Wind cars and the general-service equipment were delivered in Tuscan paint, some as early as 1938. According to my sources, the all-Tuscan paint schemes on the stainless steel cars started giving way in the early 1950's (1952?) to a natural stainless steel finish everywhere except the letterboards and numberboards, which were kept Tuscan. Later, the paint went away entirely. Unfortunately, all the photos I have of these cars show them completely painted in Tuscan until the mid-1960's (earliest photo evidence I have is 1964).

Can anyone confirm for me the date when the Budd cars in question began giving up their Tuscan paint? Any photo sources?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Chris Baker
PRRT&HS member #1918

--part1_127.16d2b073.2ab28e31_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:08:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C25AA0.807F78A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, I think you are confusing cars for separate services as "South Wind and = general service" equipment. The "South Wind" equipment was separate and = distinct equipment that ran in a through train, just like the cars that = ran through on the Florida trains out of New York. The stainless steel = cars with the tuscan letterboard (and built in 1952) were specifically = built for a single line PRR premium service - the New York-Washington = Congressionals. These trains were heavy on the parlor cars, even had a = conference car, and were one of the first vehicles to offer mobile = telephone service. These cars were most emphartically NOT general = service. In the 1960's, PRR bought some smoothside Pullmans (I wish I = could remember from what service) and rebuilt them into coaches with = smooth, not corrugated, stainless steel sides. AFAIK, these were the = first "general service" stainless steel cars on the PRR. Hopefully, one of the experts will chime in on this, as my observations = are as a PRR sales dept person 1962-1968 Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars I've posted this question at railroad.net but got no reply so I = thought I'd take a shot at it with you guys! :-) I have been doing some research on the P82/P85 and D82/D85 Budd-built = cars ordered by the Pennsy mostly prior to WWII. I'm not talking about = the cars that were purchased for through-service assignment to the = Florida trains or the Southern Railway trains. AFAIK, those were always = in natural stainless steel finish. (Well, okay. I know about the purple = letterboards on the ACL-assigned cars!) The South Wind cars and the general-service equipment were delivered = in Tuscan paint, some as early as 1938. According to my sources, the = all-Tuscan paint schemes on the stainless steel cars started giving way = in the early 1950's (1952?) to a natural stainless steel finish = everywhere except the letterboards and numberboards, which were kept = Tuscan. Later, the paint went away entirely. Unfortunately, all the = photos I have of these cars show them completely painted in Tuscan until = the mid-1960's (earliest photo evidence I have is 1964). Can anyone confirm for me the date when the Budd cars in question = began giving up their Tuscan paint? Any photo sources? Thanks in advance for your help. Chris Baker PRRT&HS member #1918 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C25AA0.807F78A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Chris,

I think you are confusing cars for separate services = as "South=20 Wind and general service" equipment. The "South Wind" equipment was = separate and=20 distinct equipment that ran in a through train, just like the cars that = ran=20 through on the Florida trains out of New York. The stainless steel cars = with the=20 tuscan letterboard (and built in 1952) were specifically built for a = single line=20 PRR premium service - the New York-Washington Congressionals. These = trains were=20 heavy on the parlor cars, even had a conference car, and were one of the = first=20 vehicles to offer mobile telephone service. These cars were most = emphartically=20 NOT general service. In the 1960's, PRR bought some smoothside Pullmans = (I wish=20 I could remember from what service) and rebuilt them into coaches with = smooth,=20 not corrugated, stainless steel sides. AFAIK, these were the first = "general=20 service" stainless steel cars on the PRR.

Hopefully, one of the experts will chime in on this, = as my=20 observations are as a PRR sales dept person 1962-1968

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =

To: prr-talk@dsop.com

Sent: Thursday, September 12, = 2002 8:41=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Painted Budd = Cars

I've posted this question at railroad.net but got = no reply=20 so I thought I'd take a shot at it with you guys! :-)

I = have been=20 doing some research on the P82/P85 and D82/D85 Budd-built cars ordered = by the=20 Pennsy mostly prior to WWII. I'm not talking about the cars that were=20 purchased for through-service assignment to the Florida trains or the = Southern=20 Railway trains. AFAIK, those were always in natural stainless steel = finish.=20 (Well, okay. I know about the purple letterboards on the ACL-assigned=20 cars!)

The South Wind cars and the general-service equipment = were=20 delivered in Tuscan paint, some as early as 1938. According to my = sources, the=20 all-Tuscan paint schemes on the stainless steel cars started giving = way in the=20 early 1950's (1952?) to a natural stainless steel finish everywhere = except the=20 letterboards and numberboards, which were kept Tuscan. Later, the = paint went=20 away entirely. Unfortunately, all the photos I have of these cars show = them=20 completely painted in Tuscan until the mid-1960's (earliest photo = evidence I=20 have is 1964).

Can anyone confirm for me the date when the Budd = cars in=20 question began giving up their Tuscan paint? Any photo = sources?

Thanks=20 in advance for your help.

Chris Baker
PRRT&HS member=20 #1918

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C25AA0.807F78A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:39:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought If you are talking about a common archive, which I think you are, it sounds great. I am not as enthusiastic about consolidating lists. Some lists have specific topics (signaling, e.g.) or orientations that, true, I could eliminate by the delete button,but right now I do by using Digest mode or temporarily unsubscribing. I may have a signaling question once every two years. Great to have an archive, but I don't want to be on a list every day with signal grognards, great guys though they may be. I dropped the Layout Design list as it unfortunately occasionally wandered off to be Carpentry.com. I was glad the OPSIG group split off, even though Layout Design itself and Operations are linked. Another $.02 worth from resident curmudgeon, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:42:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone In a message dated 9/12/02 12:29:16 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Derricks carried their own supply of coal and water on board. >> I wish I had the breakdown, but weren't most of the Pennsy's derricks or cranes oil-fired? Otherwise, my impressions are similar to Bruce's. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:58:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars In a message dated 9/12/02 8:09:49 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << In the 1960's, PRR bought some smoothside Pullmans (I wish I could remember from what service) and rebuilt them into coaches with smooth, not corrugated, stainless steel sides. AFAIK, these were the first "general service" stainless steel cars on the PRR. >> I am in a particularly lazy mood (and very busy period in my life) and not digging through my library for all the facts, so I will put this in the form of a question: you are not talking about the Budd 21 roomette Pullmans, are you? These were slabside (i.e., smooth sides with a few ridges) with fluted roofs and delivered in Tuscan. Later, they had the tuscan paint removed. This resulted in a satin (not shiny) stainless steel smooth side (with the aforementioned ridges). Satin, because to get the tuscan to adhere, Budd had to "rough up" the stainless steel. I velieve they were delivered in the early 50's. I will research whether I have a date when they were stripped of the tuscan. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:09:25 -0400 Gregg, I think the sleepers that were rebuilt into coaches were the INN series of 21 roomette cars purchased in 1946 from Budd. http://PRR.Railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/GSPEAR_PRR_SL_Inn.htm Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [SMTP:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 9:08 PM To: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Chris, I think you are confusing cars for separate services as "South Wind and general service" equipment. The "South Wind" equipment was separate and distinct equipment that ran in a through train, just like the cars that ran through on the Florida trains out of New York. The stainless steel cars with the tuscan letterboard (and built in 1952) were specifically built for a single line PRR premium service - the New York-Washington Congressionals. These trains were heavy on the parlor cars, even had a conference car, and were one of the first vehicles to offer mobile telephone service. These cars were most emphartically NOT general service. In the 1960's, PRR bought some smoothside Pullmans (I wish I could remember from what service) and rebuilt them into coaches with smooth, not corrugated, stainless steel sides. AFAIK, these were the first "general service" stainless steel cars on the PRR. Hopefully, one of the experts will chime in on this, as my observations are as a PRR sales dept person 1962-1968 Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:41 PM Subject: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars I've posted this question at railroad.net but got no reply so I thought I'd take a shot at it with you guys! :-) I have been doing some research on the P82/P85 and D82/D85 Budd-built cars ordered by the Pennsy mostly prior to WWII. I'm not talking about the cars that were purchased for through-service assignment to the Florida trains or the Southern Railway trains. AFAIK, those were always in natural stainless steel finish. (Well, okay. I know about the purple letterboards on the ACL-assigned cars!) The South Wind cars and the general-service equipment were delivered in Tuscan paint, some as early as 1938. According to my sources, the all-Tuscan paint schemes on the stainless steel cars started giving way in the early 1950's (1952?) to a natural stainless steel finish everywhere except the letterboards and numberboards, which were kept Tuscan. Later, the paint went away entirely. Unfortunately, all the photos I have of these cars show them completely painted in Tuscan until the mid-1960's (earliest photo evidence I have is 1964). Can anyone confirm for me the date when the Budd cars in question began giving up their Tuscan paint? Any photo sources? Thanks in advance for your help. Chris Baker PRRT&HS member #1918 << File: ATT00002.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Question on Passenger Yard Operations Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:08:37 -0400 I have a question regarding passenger yard operations in the larger yards. I understand that the dining and kitchen cars were cut out of the consist and shuttled off to the commissary for servicing but what about the lounge and cafe cars? were they serviced at the commissary also? if not, how were the lounges and cafes restocked? if they were serviced at the commissary how were the rooms serviced? Don (Still in the planning stages...) --------------------------------------- Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:16:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars --part1_191.d133665.2ab2a472_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregg, I do know that the South Wind equipment was dedicated specifically to that train, at least for a while. It was delivered in the 2-tone FOM paint scheme starting in late 1940. Sometime in the late 1940's/early 1950's that equipment was repainted into the standard Tuscan paint scheme. A number of other coaches and diners were also ordered from Budd around the same time. Most were delivered in the FOM paint. These cars (e.g., coaches 4000-4014; 4018-4029 and diners 4500-4512; 4514-4517 were used in general service, and appeared in such trains as the Trail Blazer, the Jeffersonian, the coach section of the Liberty Limited and so on. Some of the diners were occasionally operated back-to-back in the 1938-era Broadway Limited consists. According to the PRRT&HS book about paint schemes for PRR passenger cars, these Budd cars started losing their all-over Tuscan paint starting in the early 1950's. However, all the pictures in that book (as well as similar photos in other books) show these cars either fully painted or completely stripped of Tuscan paint -- the photos all circa the mid-1960's. I have not been able to locate any photographic evidence of one of these Budd cars having lost their Tuscan paint in the 1950's. There were 2 exception cars in the groupings listed above: coaches 4014 and 4018 were delivered (1939-40) in natural stainless finish from Budd. It's possible that the Pennsy did begin stripping the paint off of some these cars coincidentally with the arrival of the Congo/Senator consists. I do have some video that shows the Congo operating out of NY Penn Station in the mid-50's with one of these older coaches leading the consist. In the video that car had a red letterboard and numberboards but was otherwise natural stainless finish. One giveaway on this car is the short letterboard that was only long enough for the name "Pennsylvania". Anyway, if anyone out there can help me nail down data on the prewar Budd cars and their paint schemes I'd sure appreciate it. I model the 1948-1952 time period and would like to represent some of these cars in the various paint schemes of the era. thanks, Chris Baker --part1_191.d133665.2ab2a472_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregg,

I do know that the South Wind equipment was dedicated specifically to that train, at least for a while. It was delivered in the 2-tone FOM paint scheme starting in late 1940. Sometime in the late 1940's/early 1950's that equipment was repainted into the standard Tuscan paint scheme.

A number of other coaches and diners were also ordered from Budd around the same time. Most were delivered in the FOM paint. These cars (e.g., coaches 4000-4014; 4018-4029 and diners 4500-4512; 4514-4517 were used in general service, and appeared in such trains as the Trail Blazer, the Jeffersonian, the coach section of the Liberty Limited and so on. Some of the diners were occasionally operated back-to-back in the 1938-era Broadway Limited consists.

According to the PRRT&HS book about paint schemes for PRR passenger cars, these Budd cars started losing their all-over Tuscan paint starting in the early 1950's. However, all the pictures in that book (as well as similar photos in other books) show these cars either fully painted or completely stripped of Tuscan paint -- the photos all circa the mid-1960's. I have not been able to locate any photographic evidence of one of these Budd cars having lost their Tuscan paint in the 1950's.

There were 2 exception cars in the groupings listed above: coaches 4014 and 4018 were delivered (1939-40) in natural stainless finish from Budd.

It's possible that the Pennsy did begin stripping the paint off of some these cars coincidentally with the arrival of the Congo/Senator consists. I do have some video that shows the Congo operating out of NY Penn Station in the mid-50's with one of these older coaches leading the consist. In the video that car had a red letterboard and numberboards but was otherwise natural stainless finish. One giveaway on this car is the short letterboard that was only long enough for the name "Pennsylvania".

Anyway, if anyone out there can help me nail down data on the prewar Budd cars and their paint schemes I'd sure appreciate it. I model the 1948-1952 time period and would like to represent some of these cars in the various paint schemes of the era.

thanks,
Chris Baker --part1_191.d133665.2ab2a472_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:14:33 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: signals Nick Kulp wrote: > This is no longer a gag message and my apologies to the more serious > members of the list. The idea below has some merit. A few years ago I > remember an article in one of the magazines that used fiber-optic rods > for N scale signals. The "lights were provided via a mechanical linkage > with a colored lens gel used in photography and a "wig-wag" device that > changed the color of the searchlight signal. The same principle could be > used for position lights with the light source under the benchwork. The > device is a real possibility using a Tortise machine and the Tomar three > position semaphore linkage. I have, from a train show, about 90% of a Curious Searchlight Signal, dating, i'd guess, from about 1950. Brass, hollow mast. Kit form, it came with a bit of glass cane (technical term) that could be whiffled into the mast, and had a right angle bend, flame bent, in it. Made a proto light pipe. UNDER THE table, was a thing, rather like a semaphore spectacle, with red and green lenses. Lamp also mounted under the table. Wonderful little 'fiber optic' implementation, before the prototype used FO.... > Regards, > Nick Kulp best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:21:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Question on Passenger Yard Operations --part1_ea.2dadb519.2ab2a5b8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe if the lounge or parlor was a Pullman-operated car, it was serviced at the Pullman commisary if there was one. Pennsy-operated broilers, cafes and such were stocked at the PRR commisaries (again, if there was one). Some mid-sized stations only had one general commisary and still other larger terminals had one commisary that served multiple railroads' cars. Chris Baker --part1_ea.2dadb519.2ab2a5b8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe if the lounge or parlor was a Pullman-operated car, it was serviced at the Pullman commisary if there was one. Pennsy-operated broilers, cafes and such were stocked at the PRR commisaries (again, if there was one). Some mid-sized stations only had one general commisary and still other larger terminals had one commisary that served multiple railroads' cars.

Chris Baker --part1_ea.2dadb519.2ab2a5b8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:23:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Question on Passenger Yard Operations In a message dated 9/12/02 9:13:45 PM Central Daylight Time, ande1857@bellsouth.net writes: <> At Chicago 16th St. and Sunnyside NY , I believe most of the Pennsy's Blue Ribbon trains stayed intact on servicing tracks and carts brought service items (linen, ice, provisions) to diners, kitchen cars on narrow platforms between the tracks. That would have included the lounge cars which usually abutted the diner. I believe that may have also held true in the heavyweight era, but maybe someone else can help there. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 21:34:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought From: prrq2 I am not in favor of merging the PRR lists. Having all this information rain down into one place is a grand idea, however, I can see it becoming rather cluttered with a gazillion messages each day. This is not to say that this is good or bad, just a lot more hits on the delete key! I like the idea of keeping all the lists as they are, and have a single searchable archive for all the lists. This would avoid the "ego" problem, maintain the "focus" of each list, and yet make all the info from these lists easily accessible to everyone. Just my $.02 worth. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > From: zootowerprr@webtv.net > Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:23:14 -0400 (EDT) > To: jerry@pennsyrr.com (Jerry Britton), PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought > > > Good idea Jerry......... > > But will it work. The "ego" thing will have to be squared away > first. I must admit, I did start my own PRR group on Yahoo called > "PRRCatenaryElectrics". I thought it was a good idea. Then I found out > that "certain PRR listers" were upset that I started a list. > Then you have the "official PRR list" war. I still don't know > what's that all about! > So many PRR fans with so many different interest. Some guys like > steam, some like diesels, > and some like electric. So many lists! > I don't think it's bad thing to have a lots of PRR lists, But if > you guys want a merger then lets do it. > BUT IF WE DO MERGE, We are going to keep the catenary up and we > are not rerouting any freights out of Waverly or Greenville Yards on to > the Water Level Route. Long live the Red Team! :-) > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 22:45:24 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: [PRR] Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper Hello, Since so many folks have requested that I send them the paper on building PRR catenary I have uploaded it to my website. You can view and/or download it from: http://www.bit-net.com/~kbt/CATENARY.pdf (note that CATENARY must be caps) It is 1M byte so it may take some time to load for anyone on a dial-up connection. Enjoy, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 00:44:15 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 12 Sep, Jerry Britton wrote: > PLAN B: > > The other thing I might suggest is a shared archive. Jerry, this is truly a wonderful idea. Extracting archives from Yahoo may be an interesting exercise, but not altogether impossible. I'll be more than happy to lend a hand with web hackery in perl. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 01:29:37 -0400 Gregg, I suggest you acquire two books for reference. 1) 'By STREAMLINER New York to Florida' by Joseph Welsh, and 2) 'The Passenger Car Library' Vol. 4 by David Randell. The book by Welsh lists all Streamline equipment ordered by the PRR, SAL, FEC, and ACL for the NY to Florida trains. This will identify all the cars and none of this equipment was painted. The book by Randell lists the lightweight equipment ordered by the PRR, RDG, C&O, B&O, N&W, and RFP. Most of this equipment operated NY to Wash. on the south bound trains. This will identify if the as built cars were painted. As for running without the paint pictures may be your only choice. There is a picture of 1126 (South Wind, obs buf, lounge) with paint in the scrap line. Randall list cars 4019 to 4023 painted for the South Wind, 4024 and 4025 in stainless finish for the SAL's Silver Meteor, and 4026 to 4029 in stainless finish for the ACL's Champion. 4014 was not painted, but was a display car at the 1939 NY World's Fair. In Short a very careful study is required to determined the paint status of a car. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com [SMTP:Chrisandbelton2@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 10:16 PM To: mahlkov@gtcom.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Gregg, I do know that the South Wind equipment was dedicated specifically to that train, at least for a while. It was delivered in the 2-tone FOM paint scheme starting in late 1940. Sometime in the late 1940's/early 1950's that equipment was repainted into the standard Tuscan paint scheme. A number of other coaches and diners were also ordered from Budd around the same time. Most were delivered in the FOM paint. These cars (e.g., coaches 4000-4014; 4018-4029 and diners 4500-4512; 4514-4517 were used in general service, and appeared in such trains as the Trail Blazer, the Jeffersonian, the coach section of the Liberty Limited and so on. Some of the diners were occasionally operated back-to-back in the 1938-era Broadway Limited consists. According to the PRRT&HS book about paint schemes for PRR passenger cars, these Budd cars started losing their all-over Tuscan paint starting in the early 1950's. However, all the pictures in that book (as well as similar photos in other books) show these cars either fully painted or completely stripped of Tuscan paint -- the photos all circa the mid-1960's. I have not been able to locate any photographic evidence of one of these Budd cars having lost their Tuscan paint in the 1950's. There were 2 exception cars in the groupings listed above: coaches 4014 and 4018 were delivered (1939-40) in natural stainless finish from Budd. It's possible that the Pennsy did begin stripping the paint off of some these cars coincidentally with the arrival of the Congo/Senator consists. I do have some video that shows the Congo operating out of NY Penn Station in the mid-50's with one of these older coaches leading the consist. In the video that car had a red letterboard and numberboards but was otherwise natural stainless finish. One giveaway on this car is the short letterboard that was only long enough for the name "Pennsylvania". Anyway, if anyone out there can help me nail down data on the prewar Budd cars and their paint schemes I'd sure appreciate it. I model the 1948-1952 time period and would like to represent some of these cars in the various paint schemes of the era. thanks, Chris Baker << File: ATT00001.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: FW: [PRR] Fall Keystone Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:21:39 +1000 Tough luck, guys, My Keystone arrived here in Oz today - I always thought Michigan was closer to the PRR than Australia! Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of parkvarieties Sent: Friday, 13 September 2002 8:44 am To: prr-talk@dsop.com; Bruce F. Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone All of this discussion is very interesting. I certainly hope my mailman finshes reading my copy soon so he can deliver it to my house. Frank Brua - Still waiting in Michigan -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone >Chris asks > >>Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official >>publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background I >>have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, there >>is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a >>complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > >I don't hink anyone has tackled this yet so I will, and then Al can correct >my mistakes . Derricks carried their own supply of coal and water on >board. I have seen a number of shots of wreck trains, including the one I >like to refer to from the now fallen Fallen Flags pages, that did not have >a tender. In fact I wonder if the presence of a tender, especially in the >steam era, was unusual, since most shots with tenders appear to be more >modern. It can be hypothesized that either the clean up was such that >internal supplies would suffice, or that train lacked a tender and supplies >would be borrowed from the locomotive crew. As diseasels replaced steam, >the later was no longer possible and discarded tenders were used to provide >fuel and water. For this reason I am contemplating removing the tender >from my wreck train. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 04:16:00 -0400 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C25ADC.4457B9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Hurrier I get, the slower I go is the motto of the US mails anymore. = There is so much Dead Weight in the Post Office anymore, the Supervisors = are afraid to say anything I guess because of getting Shot or something b= y a employee look what's happen in the past. A member of the PRRT&H Society. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C25ADC.4457B9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Hurrier I = get, the slower I go is the motto of the US mails anymore. There is so mu= ch Dead Weight in the Post Office anymore, the Supervisors are afraid to = say anything I guess because of getting Shot or something by a employee l= ook what's happen in the past.

A member of t= he PRRT&H Society.

<= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C25ADC.4457B9A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:24:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper From: Jerry Britton On 9/12/02 10:45 PM, "Keith B Thompson" wrote: > Since so many folks have requested that I send them > the paper on building PRR catenary I have uploaded > it to my website. You can view and/or download it from: > > http://www.bit-net.com/~kbt/CATENARY.pdf > > (note that CATENARY must be caps) > > It is 1M byte so it may take some time to load for > anyone on a dial-up connection. Copyright issue? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:30:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails --part1_170.13a89a4e.2ab33458_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/13/02 4:22:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, leeprrswitchkey@msn.com writes: > The Hurrier I get, the slower I go is the motto of the US mails anymore. > There is so much Dead Weight in the Post Office anymore, the Supervisors > are afraid to say anything I guess because of getting Shot or something by > a employee look what's happen in the past. > > A member of the PRRT&H Society. > To Unknown PRR TH&S Member, If you are going to malign the USPS and its workers, you should have the guts to use your name. I have always had excellent service from the Bryn Mawr, PA post office personnel, especially when I was mailing out 900+ copies of the "High Line" magazine for the Philadelphia Chapter several times a year. Andy Hart, PRR T&HS #92 Phila Chapter Secretary 1976-1990 --part1_170.13a89a4e.2ab33458_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/13/02 4:22:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, leeprrswitchkey@msn.com writes:

The Hurrier I get, the slower I go is the motto of the US mails anymore. There is so much Dead Weight in the Post Office anymore, the Supervisors are afraid to say anything I guess because of getting Shot or something by a employee look what's happen in the past.

A member of the PRRT&H Society.

To Unknown PRR TH&S Member,

If you are going to malign the USPS and its workers, you should have the guts to use your name.

I have always had excellent service from the Bryn Mawr, PA post office personnel, especially when I was mailing out 900+ copies of the "High Line" magazine for the Philadelphia Chapter several times a year.

Andy Hart, PRR T&HS #92
Phila Chapter Secretary 1976-1990
--part1_170.13a89a4e.2ab33458_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:31:50 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought Well...it's an interesting proposal which I will deal with in two parts. PART A: merging the splintered lists into the main two(?) lists. The egos of (some of) the listmeisters are going to be a problem, just as they have been in the past. That being said, its still an idea that merits discussion. I "serve" as the "owner" of the DELMARVA list on YOOHOO and like some other of the minor lists, DELMARVA serves no useful purpose other than as a place to post files of Delmarva stuff -- photos, maps and such that can't be attached to list postings (or archives). Delmarva traffic is light, members are few and more often than not, the Delmarva postings are on the main list. It would better serve the majority of folks to have fewer splinter lists and more use of the delete key for messages that don't interest you. This assumes that posters put correct descriptive headers on posts. In my opinion, the de-splintering won't happen although a number of the lists will die natural deaths, particularly on YOO-HOO which keeps changing, not always for the better. PART B: Shared Archives. This is a great idea with the only problem being getting access to the separate archives of each of the lists (copyrights and all that.) I also assume the archives that now exist are are on physically separate computers. Not being a computer person, I don't know how this can be done, but the technical folks always seem to figure out the magic to make it work. Sounds like a CYBER Division project to me, which I hope will go better than the Red team-Green team fiasco of PC days. Jim McDaniel, suffering from Merger Fever in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:39:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails From: Jerry Britton On 9/13/02 8:30 AM, AHARTPRR137@aol.com (AHARTPRR137@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 9/13/02 4:22:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > leeprrswitchkey@msn.com writes: > > > The Hurrier I get, the slower I go is the motto of the US mails anymore. There > is so much Dead Weight in the Post Office anymore, the Supervisors are afraid > to say anything I guess because of getting Shot or something by a employee > look what's happen in the past. > > A member of the PRRT&H Society. > > > To Unknown PRR TH&S Member, > > If you are going to malign the USPS and its workers, you should have the guts > to use your name. > > I have always had excellent service from the Bryn Mawr, PA post office > personnel, especially when I was mailing out 900+ copies of the "High Line" > magazine for the Philadelphia Chapter several times a year. > Whoah Nellie, on this thread!!! I, too, receive excellent service from the local office for outbound shipping. However, I can also say that the local delivery person (rural, uses their own vehicle) leaves something to be desired. In fact, one year they ran over our mail box!!!1 Different areas can have different levels of service. But let's not argue it on list, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:48:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought From: Jerry Britton On 9/13/02 8:31 AM, James L. McDaniel (jlmcdaniel@esva.net) wrote: > Well...it's an interesting proposal which I will deal with in two parts. > > PART A: merging the splintered lists into the main two(?) lists. The > egos of (some of) the listmeisters are going to be a problem, just as > they have been in the past. That being said, its still an idea that > merits discussion. > > I "serve" as the "owner" of the DELMARVA list on YOOHOO and like some > other of the minor lists, DELMARVA serves no useful purpose other than > as a place to post files of Delmarva stuff -- photos, maps and such that > can't be attached to list postings (or archives). Delmarva traffic is > light, members are few and more often than not, the Delmarva postings > are on the main list. > > It would better serve the majority of folks to have fewer splinter lists > and more use of the delete key for messages that don't interest you. > This assumes that posters put correct descriptive headers on posts. If the subjects are appropriate, then merging the lists shouldn't be a problem. Again, the common solution is a good Delete Key reflex. However, you point out being able to post files. That can be addressed via one or more ways. That is something I did not think about in my original post. > > In my opinion, the de-splintering won't happen although a number of the > lists will die natural deaths, particularly on YOO-HOO which keeps > changing, not always for the better. Unfortunately, some of the "dead" lists are still showing as active when one does a "PRR" search on Yahoo. Their owners never deactivated the group. People can still join and leave at will. Ideally, these should be removed from the search results. > > PART B: Shared Archives. This is a great idea with the only problem > being getting access to the separate archives of each of the lists > (copyrights and all that.) My solution would import the posts in their entirety, including their message headers, which will clearly show the source. The search page could have copyright messages. It should also be noted that reading the messages via the shared archive still would not allow one to post to a list. They would still have to join the list to participate. > > I also assume the archives that now exist are are on physically separate > computers. Not being a computer person, I don't know how this can be > done, but the technical folks always seem to figure out the magic to > make it work. Most of the "splinter" lists are on Yahoo. Last week Yahoo notified many (if not all) listmasters that their disk space would be reduced. I don't know the time frame for this, but at some point some (or all) groups will see part of their archives deleted from the Yahoo system. There is probably some method of exporting them. If I can get a sample, I can see how the file can be manipulated to be imported into my system. Also, any lists participating from here on out wouldn't be an issue, as the archive database would be directly subscribed to the lists and would receive new posts in real time. > > Sounds like a CYBER Division project to me, which I hope will go better > than the Red team-Green team fiasco of PC days. That idea has merit. That would put the archives under the auspices of a neutral party. Though on my server, I am not an officer of the Cyber Division. Or, since the Cyber Division is hardly active, perhaps under the Northern Central Chapter's site. A positive idea. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 08:59:53 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Gregg, I think Chris is right. I've seen photos of Budd built prewar PRR coaches in what could be called the "Congo" scheme (in one of the Morning Sun Color Guides I think.) I too was curious (but only slightly) about when the cars got this livery. I knew from the photo it was sometime after the war. I did not know, as Chris apparently does, that they were the cars delivered in Tuscan paint. I suppose its easy enough to trace the car number. I just never bothered. BTW The Budd sleepers were bought from N&W. Of course the PRR also converted its Budd 21 rmts to coaches and striped them of their Tuscan paint. These cars have a long interesting history. The were bought by MARC for commuter service some years ago. MARC had the decency and historical sense to put their original "xxxx INN" names back on them! They have since been sold to the Panama Canal RR and are still running today! In KCS black-yellow-orange livery I believe. Unfortunately, none of this trivia answers Chris's original question. Sorry Chris ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Chris, I think you are confusing cars for separate services as "South > Wind and general service" equipment. The "South Wind" equipment was > separate and distinct equipment that ran in a through train, just like > the cars that ran through on the Florida trains out of New York. The > stainless steel cars with the tuscan letterboard (and built in 1952) > were specifically built for a single line PRR premium service - the > New York-Washington Congressionals. These trains were heavy on the > parlor cars, even had a conference car, and were one of the first > vehicles to offer mobile telephone service. These cars were most > emphartically NOT general service. In the 1960's, PRR bought some > smoothside Pullmans (I wish I could remember from what service) and > rebuilt them into coaches with smooth, not corrugated, stainless steel > sides. AFAIK, these were the first "general service" stainless steel > cars on the PRR. Hopefully, one of the experts will chime in on this, > as my observations are as a PRR sales dept person 1962-1968 Gregg > Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 8:41 PM > Subject: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars > I've posted this question at railroad.net but got no reply > so I thought I'd take a shot at it with you guys! :-) > > I have been doing some research on the P82/P85 and D82/D85 > Budd-built cars ordered by the Pennsy mostly prior to WWII. > I'm not talking about the cars that were purchased for > through-service assignment to the Florida trains or the > Southern Railway trains. AFAIK, those were always in natural > stainless steel finish. (Well, okay. I know about the purple > letterboards on the ACL-assigned cars!) > > The South Wind cars and the general-service equipment were > delivered in Tuscan paint, some as early as 1938. According > to my sources, the all-Tuscan paint schemes on the stainless > steel cars started giving way in the early 1950's (1952?) to > a natural stainless steel finish everywhere except the > letterboards and numberboards, which were kept Tuscan. > Later, the paint went away entirely. Unfortunately, all the > photos I have of these cars show them completely painted in > Tuscan until the mid-1960's (earliest photo evidence I have > is 1964). > > Can anyone confirm for me the date when the Budd cars in > question began giving up their Tuscan paint? Any photo > sources? > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > Chris Baker > PRRT&HS member #1918 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: FW: [PRR] Fall Keystone Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:07:57 +0000 Oh good! That means they are half way to Chicago now. Yippee!! > Tough luck, guys, > My Keystone arrived here in Oz today - I always thought Michigan was closer > to the PRR than Australia! > Regards, Viv Brice > An SPF from 'Down Under' > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > parkvarieties > Sent: Friday, 13 September 2002 8:44 am > To: prr-talk@dsop.com; Bruce F. Smith > Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone > > > All of this discussion is very interesting. I certainly hope my mailman > finshes reading my copy soon so he can deliver it to my house. > > Frank Brua - Still waiting in Michigan > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce F. Smith > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone > > > >Chris asks > > > >>Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official > >>publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background > I > >>have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, > there > >>is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a > >>complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > > > >I don't hink anyone has tackled this yet so I will, and then Al can correct > >my mistakes . Derricks carried their own supply of coal and water on > >board. I have seen a number of shots of wreck trains, including the one I > >like to refer to from the now fallen Fallen Flags pages, that did not have > >a tender. In fact I wonder if the presence of a tender, especially in the > >steam era, was unusual, since most shots with tenders appear to be more > >modern. It can be hypothesized that either the clean up was such that > >internal supplies would suffice, or that train lacked a tender and supplies > >would be borrowed from the locomotive crew. As diseasels replaced steam, > >the later was no longer possible and discarded tenders were used to provide > >fuel and water. For this reason I am contemplating removing the tender > >from my wreck train. > > > >Happy Rails > >Bruce > > > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > >Scott-Ritchey Research Center > >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:12:46 +0100 I expect my copy in some 4-5 weeks, as postage across "the pond" seems to be getting worse! However there is a nice article about John Wright's "Federal Street" in the current ( October ) issue of Continental Modeller. Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "parkvarieties" To: ; "Bruce F. Smith" Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone > All of this discussion is very interesting. I certainly hope my mailman > finshes reading my copy soon so he can deliver it to my house. > > Frank Brua - Still waiting in Michigan > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce F. Smith > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Thursday, September 12, 2002 1:34 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Fall Keystone > > > >Chris asks > > > >>Got my fall Keystone yesterday, Besides the cute way the "official > >>publication of the PRRT&HS" changes color from the sky to hill background > I > >>have a question. If you look at the overall shot of the train wreck, > there > >>is a derrick being pushed into position by a steam loco. It seems to be a > >>complete wreck train. However I don't see a tender for the crane? > > > >I don't hink anyone has tackled this yet so I will, and then Al can correct > >my mistakes . Derricks carried their own supply of coal and water on > >board. I have seen a number of shots of wreck trains, including the one I > >like to refer to from the now fallen Fallen Flags pages, that did not have > >a tender. In fact I wonder if the presence of a tender, especially in the > >steam era, was unusual, since most shots with tenders appear to be more > >modern. It can be hypothesized that either the clean up was such that > >internal supplies would suffice, or that train lacked a tender and supplies > >would be borrowed from the locomotive crew. As diseasels replaced steam, > >the later was no longer possible and discarded tenders were used to provide > >fuel and water. For this reason I am contemplating removing the tender > >from my wreck train. > > > >Happy Rails > >Bruce > > > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > >Scott-Ritchey Research Center > >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:06:44 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars As yet another interesting sidelight to this issue, there was one "foreign" road that painted its Budd built cars in PRR FOM colors, the ACL did at least one coach in that scheme to match the PRR equipment on the Southwind! -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 09:53:37 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C25B0B.6E3C2B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd like one as well! Earl Myers PRRT&HS # 6778=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: kbt@bit-net.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary I'd like to get a copy of Bill's paper. Chris Baker PRRT&HS member #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C25B0B.6E3C2B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'd like one as well!

Earl Myers

PRRT&HS # 6778

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =

To: kbt@bit-net.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 11, = 2002 11:35=20 PM

Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR = catenary

I'd like to get a copy of Bill's = paper.

Chris=20 Baker
PRRT&HS member #1918 = ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C25B0B.6E3C2B00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Trains Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:02:39 -0400 Listers, To get off the topic of mail and lists, in the latest issue of Model Railroad News there is an advertisement from TLC Publishing for: Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Trains, Consists and Cars-1952 Volume 1, East-West Trains Color throughout 150 illustrations. Anyone know anything about this book. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:57:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] This Just In... From: Jerry Britton Hot news for N scalers...InterMountain will be doing EMD F units following the release of their Tunnel Motors next summer. No details yet, but they are coming!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 11:10:03 -0500 Out where I live, the Post Office has outsourced its carrier service. Sometimes we receive mail in tha afternoon, sometimes at 7:00 PM at night. It is very uneven. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:39 AM To: AHARTPRR137@aol.com; leeprrswitchkey@msn.com; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails On 9/13/02 8:30 AM, AHARTPRR137@aol.com (AHARTPRR137@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 9/13/02 4:22:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > leeprrswitchkey@msn.com writes: > > > The Hurrier I get, the slower I go is the motto of the US mails anymore. There > is so much Dead Weight in the Post Office anymore, the Supervisors are afraid > to say anything I guess because of getting Shot or something by a employee > look what's happen in the past. > > A member of the PRRT&H Society. > > > To Unknown PRR TH&S Member, > > If you are going to malign the USPS and its workers, you should have the guts > to use your name. > > I have always had excellent service from the Bryn Mawr, PA post office > personnel, especially when I was mailing out 900+ copies of the "High Line" > magazine for the Philadelphia Chapter several times a year. > Whoah Nellie, on this thread!!! I, too, receive excellent service from the local office for outbound shipping. However, I can also say that the local delivery person (rural, uses their own vehicle) leaves something to be desired. In fact, one year they ran over our mail box!!!1 Different areas can have different levels of service. But let's not argue it on list, please! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:18:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] EMD F3's in Helper Service From: Jerry Britton Folks, I am trying to establish some facts rather quickly. I am at a remote site and do not have access to Withers Publishing "PRR Diesels, Volume Six, EMD and Alco Freight Cab Units". Anyone have one handy? A few weeks ago Greg Martin discussed various phases of F units, for an Athearn HO project. Here is an excert from his post, pertaining only to F3's: > F-3 phase 2 early High Fans, dynamic brake grills, Chicken wire over the air > intakes on the upper carbody as well as between the portholes. (total of 6 > A-units possible) > > F-3 phase 2 late Low fans, dido on the dynamics as above, Chicken wire is > same as above. > > F-3 phase 3 low fans, dynamic brake grills, chicken wire only in the upper > carbody and now louvers on the sides. > > F-3 phase 4 low fans standard, dynamic brake grills, Stainless grills. > I know from Hirsimaki's book "Black Gold Black Diamonds" there were numerous F3 ABA helper sets. What I need are the road numbers of all of the helper sets matched with the phases (above). Can anyone help? Greg, maybe you've already done this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:22:43 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Raymond Loewy & the GG1 Was it here that we were discussing the history of the GG1 'shape'? (I hope so.) Stumbled on a copy of KEYSTONE: Spring, 1991. This is almost completely devoted to the relationship between Raymond Loewy's design firm and the PRR. Reference is made to Loewy's biography: Never Leave Well Enough Alone and other printed historical material, including a Master's Thesis examining the relationship, which is reprinted in full. Also, a Raymond Loewy retrospective at the Renwick Gallery of the Smithsonian, some years back, which had a printed guidebook. (I went to DC, in part for that show. Didn't buy the guide....) Casual search on ebay, amazon, and alibris (used/antiquarian books) shows: Never Leave Well Enough Alone is available, and apparently about to be reprinted. The Renwick Exhibit guide is available, used. Back to the 'GG1 Shape'. The _shape_ does not seem to have originated with Loewy. (fanpress comments to the contrary notwithstanding.) This is covered in 'More than...' and confirmed, in my view, in the Keystone article: 1) There is a quote from Loewy that he looked at a photograph of the [GG1[1]] prototype, and suggested (roughly) that a welded skin and 'simpler' paint would look better. 2) There is a large project list of all the traceable Loewy projects for PRR. The second entry is: Suggested Improvements to GG1 Styling and Painting. My understanding is that (1) is also reflected in 'Never leave...'. What i find intriguing is a note from Loewy, reproduced in the Keystone (P14), very roughly paraphrased: The elok sketches I left with Mr Duer are for boxcabs, assuming RoW with no gradecrossings. I am preparing some sketches for 'now' with full protection for crew. It would be very interesting to see THOSE sketches, if made. An informal Chronology: R1 (per P5 Electrics book) 26 Aug, 1934 Loewy contract to 'paint and skin' 'GG1' Oct 34-Jan 1935 Note, paraphrased above: 14 Dec, 1934 P5A Streamlined (per P5 book) 26 Feb, 1935 GG1 (per 'P5 Electrics book) 25 May, 1935 This more less matches the comment when we discussed this last, that 'the shape': '...is said to have originated at Westinghouse...' (with the R1, possibly by streamlining[2] the L5 shape?). [1] Per the article in the Keystone, there is some confusion as to WHICH 'prototype electric' Loewy was shown a picture of. Loewy says P5 (which does not match the chronology above, depending on the exact dates chosen.). Looks like a photo of R1 was a possibility, depending on EXACT dates of GG1 proto production. [2] Unrelated to the GG1 Shape, but... Streamlining was, in my view, more or less a fashion statement. In the Keystone article Loewy quotes the following (from, i believe, _model_ tests): K4s, normal, aero drag: 890 hp K4s, streamlines, aero drag: 600 HP Soooooo: All that 'tin' and maintenance headache saved: 290 hp AND: it only saved THAT at full speed. Savings dropped off at lower speeds. Dropped off a LOT. (The figures do NOT state a speed, so one might Assume 'full rated'.) The 'fashion statement' brought in the passengers, so may have been worthwhile. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy & the GG1 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:44:46 +0000 My only concern or complaint with Loewy's work is that he tweaked the GG1. The basic carbody shape is still the same as Rivets. It is probably part of his personal PR effort to claim he disigned it but in my mind he didn't design the GG1. He improved it. To take creidt for all of it is plagerism. Not a big deal in the overall scheme of life but he certainly did have an ego. > Was it here that we were discussing the history of the GG1 > 'shape'? > (I hope so.) > > Stumbled on a copy of KEYSTONE: Spring, 1991. > This is almost completely devoted to the relationship between > Raymond Loewy's design firm and the PRR. Reference is made > to Loewy's biography: > Never Leave Well Enough Alone > and other printed historical material, including a Master's > Thesis examining the relationship, which is reprinted in full. > Also, a Raymond Loewy retrospective at the Renwick Gallery > of the Smithsonian, some years back, which had a printed > guidebook. (I went to DC, in part for that show. Didn't buy > the guide....) > > Casual search on ebay, amazon, and alibris (used/antiquarian > books) shows: > Never Leave Well Enough Alone > is available, and apparently about to be reprinted. > The Renwick Exhibit guide is available, used. > > Back to the 'GG1 Shape'. The _shape_ does not seem to have > originated with Loewy. (fanpress comments to the contrary > notwithstanding.) This is covered in 'More than...' and > confirmed, in my view, in the Keystone article: > 1) There is a quote from Loewy that he looked at > a photograph of the [GG1[1]] prototype, and suggested > (roughly) that a welded skin and 'simpler' paint would > look better. > 2) There is a large project list of all the traceable > Loewy projects for PRR. The second entry is: > Suggested Improvements to GG1 Styling and > Painting. > > My understanding is that (1) is also reflected in 'Never > leave...'. > > What i find intriguing is a note from Loewy, reproduced > in the Keystone (P14), very roughly paraphrased: > The elok sketches I left with Mr Duer are for > boxcabs, assuming RoW with no gradecrossings. > I am preparing some sketches for 'now' with > full protection for crew. > It would be very interesting to see THOSE sketches, if made. > > An informal Chronology: > R1 (per P5 Electrics book) 26 Aug, 1934 > Loewy contract to 'paint and > skin' 'GG1' Oct 34-Jan 1935 > Note, paraphrased above: 14 Dec, 1934 > P5A Streamlined (per P5 book) 26 Feb, 1935 > GG1 (per 'P5 Electrics book) 25 May, 1935 > > This more less matches the comment when we discussed this > last, that 'the shape': > '...is said to have originated at Westinghouse...' > (with the R1, possibly by streamlining[2] the L5 shape?). > > [1] > Per the article in the Keystone, there is some confusion as > to WHICH 'prototype electric' Loewy was shown a picture of. > Loewy says P5 (which does not match the chronology above, > depending on the exact dates chosen.). Looks like a photo > of R1 was a possibility, depending on EXACT dates of GG1 > proto production. > > [2] > Unrelated to the GG1 Shape, but... > Streamlining was, in my view, more or less a fashion statement. > In the Keystone article Loewy quotes the following (from, i > believe, _model_ tests): > K4s, normal, aero drag: 890 hp > K4s, streamlines, aero drag: 600 HP > Soooooo: All that 'tin' and maintenance headache saved: > 290 hp > AND: it only saved THAT at full speed. Savings dropped off > at lower speeds. Dropped off a LOT. > (The figures do NOT state a speed, so one might Assume > 'full rated'.) > The 'fashion statement' brought in the passengers, so may > have been worthwhile. > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 13:01:02 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy & the GG1 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > My only concern or complaint with Loewy's work is that he > tweaked the GG1. Which is all HE ever said he did. It's 'others' being 'loose' (or careless), who attribute the entire design to Loewy. Not Loewy's fault if others make mistakes. > The basic carbody shape is still the same as Rivets. cf my chronology (and it's sources). Unclear that the pic Loewy styled from was Rivets (original 4899) or R1 (original 4800.) The DATES make R1 more probable. > It is probably part of his personal PR effort to claim he > designed it He made no such claim. cf his autobiography. OTHERS made that assertion. Hardly Loewy's 'fault'. > but in my mind he didn't design the GG1. cf above. He did not say he did. > He improved it. To take credit for all of it is plagiarism. Loewy made no such claim. cf above. > Not a big deal in the overall scheme of life but he certainly > did have an ego. Indeed. an ego, and enough honesty to say: All i did was some mods. At least that's what the record shows. ====================================================== >>Was it here that we were discussing the history of the GG1 >>'shape'? >>(I hope so.) >> >>Stumbled on a copy of KEYSTONE: Spring, 1991. >>This is almost completely devoted to the relationship between >>Raymond Loewy's design firm and the PRR. Reference is made >>to Loewy's biography: >> Never Leave Well Enough Alone >>and other printed historical material, including a Master's >>Thesis examining the relationship, which is reprinted in full. >>Also, a Raymond Loewy retrospective at the Renwick Gallery >>of the Smithsonian, some years back, which had a printed >>guidebook. (I went to DC, in part for that show. Didn't buy >>the guide....) >> >>Casual search on ebay, amazon, and alibris (used/antiquarian >>books) shows: >> Never Leave Well Enough Alone >>is available, and apparently about to be reprinted. >>The Renwick Exhibit guide is available, used. >> >>Back to the 'GG1 Shape'. The _shape_ does not seem to have >>originated with Loewy. (fanpress comments to the contrary >>notwithstanding.) This is covered in 'More than...' and >>confirmed, in my view, in the Keystone article: >> 1) There is a quote from Loewy that he looked at >> a photograph of the [GG1[1]] prototype, and suggested >> (roughly) that a welded skin and 'simpler' paint would >> look better. >> 2) There is a large project list of all the traceable >> Loewy projects for PRR. The second entry is: >> Suggested Improvements to GG1 Styling and >> Painting. >> >>My understanding is that (1) is also reflected in 'Never >>leave...'. >> >>What i find intriguing is a note from Loewy, reproduced >>in the Keystone (P14), very roughly paraphrased: >> The elok sketches I left with Mr Duer are for >> boxcabs, assuming RoW with no gradecrossings. >> I am preparing some sketches for 'now' with >> full protection for crew. >>It would be very interesting to see THOSE sketches, if made. >> >>An informal Chronology: >> R1 (per P5 Electrics book) 26 Aug, 1934 >> Loewy contract to 'paint and >> skin' 'GG1' Oct 34-Jan 1935 >> Note, paraphrased above: 14 Dec, 1934 >> P5A Streamlined (per P5 book) 26 Feb, 1935 >> GG1 (per 'P5 Electrics book) 25 May, 1935 >> >>This more less matches the comment when we discussed this >>last, that 'the shape': >> '...is said to have originated at Westinghouse...' >>(with the R1, possibly by streamlining[2] the L5 shape?). >> >>[1] >>Per the article in the Keystone, there is some confusion as >>to WHICH 'prototype electric' Loewy was shown a picture of. >>Loewy says P5 (which does not match the chronology above, >>depending on the exact dates chosen.). Looks like a photo >>of R1 was a possibility, depending on EXACT dates of GG1 >>proto production. >> >>[2] >>Unrelated to the GG1 Shape, but... >>Streamlining was, in my view, more or less a fashion statement. >>In the Keystone article Loewy quotes the following (from, i >>believe, _model_ tests): >> K4s, normal, aero drag: 890 hp >> K4s, streamlines, aero drag: 600 HP >>Soooooo: All that 'tin' and maintenance headache saved: >> 290 hp >>AND: it only saved THAT at full speed. Savings dropped off >>at lower speeds. Dropped off a LOT. >>(The figures do NOT state a speed, so one might Assume >>'full rated'.) >>The 'fashion statement' brought in the passengers, so may >>have been worthwhile. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] RE: More painting instructions Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:42:18 -0700 Hi all; With many thanks to my buddy Jack Consoli, and courtesy of the PA State Archives, we now have some more information on painting PRR freight cars. Facts: There were "painting instructions" issued some time prior to; and then, 1953, 1955, 1961, and perhaps one additional date post-'61 and prior to the merger. There were no interim instructions between 1955 and 1961. There may have been one in between 1953 and 1955, but I kind of doubt this. Fact: Painting instructions have NOTHING to do with lettering, except that the lettering standards were derived AFTER a paint scheme was decided on. Then lettering would have been put together according to individual car class instructions you have probably all seen before (if not, see the Middle Division Lettering Compendium). This is very clear from the correspondence. This discussion only has to do with how paint was applied! "The Pennsylvania Railroad - Issued June 20, 1961 - Instructions for Painting Freight Equipment Cars.......Superceding Instructions Dated December 1, 1955" Here are the highlights: 1) "Trucks, Couplers, Wheels, Axles, Etc.: On new cars the assembled trucks, new or reconditioned (that means your Crown trucks on later classes!), except for wheels and axles, are to be painted with one coat of Hard Drying Black Enamel.....for painting repaired cars, the trucks are not to be painted." "Couplers, wheels, axles, air hose, and truck side frames (see paragraph above) shall not be painted and must be covered during painting operations to protect them from inadvertently being painted." So, for those of us that might have believed that trucks were painted "red", and have seen photos of same, I guess the painter must've come in with a hangover! This differs from the earlier painting instructions only in that at that time only NEW trucks were to be painted, apparently not reconditioned ones. 2) "Standard Hopper Cars.... ...the exterior, except the underframes, and exterior surfaces of slope and floor sheets and doors with one coat of Black Freight Car Paint.....the exterior surfaces of the underframes, doors, slope sheets and floor sheets shall be painted with one coat of Asphaltum Compound" Hey, who knew! It's not like there was a big color difference. This explains that "tarry" feel to the undersides of those H39's, though, doesn't it? Also, "Hopper cars are not to be painted on the interior...." Also explains those uniformly rusty interiors! Obviously in the interim, PRR had chosen to paint std hoppers black. And, the Asphaltum on the undersides thing is new. Also, in the earlier period, NEW hoppers had their interior painted. Not reconditioned or repainted ones, unless new steel was used. For all of us, there are few cases in which this would matter, as paint did not last long on a hopper interior. Paint them rusty, guys! 3) "Gondola Cars.... .....the top surface of all underframe details of cars....which are to have wood floors applied shall be painted with one coat of Asphaltum Compound." Not an important detail, but makes sense. "Cars must be spray painted all over, inside and outside, except treated wood floors, with one coat of Red Freight Car Paint.....when repainting gondola cars which have had no new steel applied, the inside painting is to be omitted if the corners and crevices are still properly protected." So, if new, paint the inside sides but not flooring on wood floors; if repainted (and assuming OK condition without sheet replacement) NO interior paint. And given that treated wood was almost uniformly used, that red on the wood floor is probably only overspray in most cases. Unless, of course, that hungover guy is back at work. The only difference between 1961 and 1953 is the earlier application of a second coat of paint, exterior only. And no, we are not going to start calling this RFCP, are we? Just kidding. On the earlier instructions, the "red" paint called for is variously called "Ready-Mixed Freight Car Paint", "Wet-on-Wet Freight Car Red Paint", "Synthetic Red Freight Car Enamel", and "Ready-Mixed Alkali-Resisting Red Freight Car Paint", depending on application. And no, we are not calling them RMFCP, WOWFCRP, SRFCP, and RMARRFCP, either. 4) "Flat and Well Cars... ...(same as item 1 on gons above, and then)...Paint all metal parts and untreated wood floors with one coat of Red Freight Car Paint....treated wood floors are not painted." So, now you can paint those unpainted Railworks flats you have been hoarding with some degree of comfort. For the earlier instructions, it is stated that "all METAL parts are painted with two coats of W-on-W Freight Car Paint. I guess the wood was not painted then, either, regardless of treatment. So, what color do we paint those wood floors? I guess you have your pick between grey for old cars and light yellow/tan for new ones. Only NOT red! Unless of course you hired that hungover guy back after firing for painting your gon floor red...... 5) "Standard Box Cars...... (interiors are painted Red, down to 24 inches above the butt, below which is painted w/Asphaltum).....Spray the exterior sides, ends, underframes and roofs (if not new galvanized) with one coat of Red FCP" But next, follow this: "ALL ROOFS (exterior surface) shall be spray painted with Asphaltum Compound." (!) Folks, this means that the PRR intended ALL roofs to be final coated with Asphaltum. The order of painting steps is clear. However, you can see where the confusion might come in. If you read this incorrectly, you might think that only galvanized roofs (at this point, all new cars were) were coated with Asphaltum. ONLY. Or maybe you followed the instructions in a different order, as long as the intent was followed. I know, there are photos in which cars do NOT have Asphaltum on the roof (see the X29D's in vol 2 of the color guide, and others). How do you explain this? You probably can't. There were thousands of shop employees, and dozens of locations. Can we honestly say that everybody followed the instructions to the letter? Do your employees? Also, there is no specific instruction as to the painting of running boards, roof seams, brake platforms, or other. So, why the variations we have seen? Confusion reigns... Additionally, "Box cars with special interior equipment, such as DF loaders....interior sides, ends, racks, doors and ceiling, if the roof sheets are not of galvanized construction, spray painted with one coat of Ready Mix Aluminum Paint." THAT explains those "grey" interiors and racks, doesn't it? 6) "Covered Hopper Cars.....and any steel box cars which are assigned to the alkali trade (and which were these?)...Spray paint the exterior sides, ends, underframes, and roof (if not NEW galvanized) with one coat of Gray Paint...." And, "Spray paint ALL roofs with Asphaltum Compound..." So, how does the H34 mystery and others fit into this? The earlier paint instructions call for Asphaltum ONLY on new galvanized roofs. Can you imagine the confusion over this? It doe NOT say "subsequently paint the roofs with Asphaltum" Vendors and car shops might have been saying, "so, do we have to paint the grey first, or maybe we can do the roof first with car cement and then paint the whole thing grey." We have all seen cars with grey roofs and also with black. Might this confusion explain some of that variation from the std specs? Maybe? So, now don't you feel better? Have a great weekend! Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 10:49:09 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] B&O/PRR parallel tracks Sometime back in the closing years of the 20th century, there was a thread here about "places where B&O and PRR trains would run on parallel tracks" At the time, I mentioned a stretch along the Clarion River where the PRR's Ridgway Branch ran beside the BR&P double-track main line, creating the impression of a three-track line. A postcard showing that is currently on eBay (not a plug for the seller, just a reference to the image). The item number is 713382281. The PRR track is the one farthest to the right in the photo. As I mentioned at the time, I've seen this photo in BR&P advertisements, and suggested that its use may have been a form of pre-WW2 advertising hype. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:38:31 -0400 To plagiarize Bill Ayers: "I like the idea of keeping all the lists as they are, and have a single searchable archive for all the lists. This would avoid the "ego" problem, maintain the "focus" of each list, and yet make all the info from these lists easily accessible to everyone." Like Bill said I think this would ruffle the least feathers. The only problem I see is how would I know that something that I want to know about just went to the archive from the "PRR tugboat propeller list"? :) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:58:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] List Merger Proposal - Feedback Sought From: Jerry Britton On 9/13/02 3:38 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > "I like the idea of keeping all the lists as they are, and have a single > searchable archive for all the lists. This would avoid the "ego" problem, > maintain the "focus" of each list, and yet make all the info from these > lists easily accessible to everyone." > > Like Bill said I think this would ruffle the least feathers. The only > problem I see is how would I know that something that I want to know about > just went to the archive from the "PRR tugboat propeller list"? :) > I reiterate that this is still just a proposal... If such a central archive were implemented, the database itself would be subscribed to all of the lists. It would check its mailbox every 15 minutes and read all mail. When you search, get the search results table, and click to view the detail of the message, the "Full headers" would be there, which would indicate what list the message came from. Furthermore, most lists put a prefix on the subject line which would also still be present. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] EMD F3's in Helper Service Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:22:02 -0400 Jerry, I have a copy handy, but it does not list all the F-3's that were originaly geared as helpers. According to Pensey Power II by Alvin F. Staufer and Bert Pennypacker, the numbers for the EH15 class (both F-3's and F-7's) where: 9518A 9519A 9542A-9555A 9652A-9655A 9680A-9699A 9518B 9519B 9528B 9541B-9555B 9652B 9654B Going back to PRR Diesels, V6 9518A 9518B 9519A where F-3 Phase 2 late 9542A-9555A 9680A-9689A where F-3 Phase 4 9519B 9528B 9541B-9546B 9548B 9550B 9552B 9554B where F-3 Phase 4 9652A-9655A & 9690A-9699A where F-7 9547B 9549B 9551B 9553B 9555B 9652B 9654B where F-7 Hope I got that all right. The B-units get a little confused Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 12:18 PM Subject: [PRR] EMD F3's in Helper Service > Folks, I am trying to establish some facts rather quickly. I am at a remote > site and do not have access to Withers Publishing "PRR Diesels, Volume Six, > EMD and Alco Freight Cab Units". Anyone have one handy? > > A few weeks ago Greg Martin discussed various phases of F units, for an > Athearn HO project. Here is an excert from his post, pertaining only to > F3's: > > > F-3 phase 2 early High Fans, dynamic brake grills, Chicken wire over the air > > intakes on the upper carbody as well as between the portholes. (total of 6 > > A-units possible) > > > > F-3 phase 2 late Low fans, dido on the dynamics as above, Chicken wire is > > same as above. > > > > F-3 phase 3 low fans, dynamic brake grills, chicken wire only in the upper > > carbody and now louvers on the sides. > > > > F-3 phase 4 low fans standard, dynamic brake grills, Stainless grills. > > > I know from Hirsimaki's book "Black Gold Black Diamonds" there were numerous > F3 ABA helper sets. > > What I need are the road numbers of all of the helper sets matched with the > phases (above). Can anyone help? > > Greg, maybe you've already done this? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] SD-35's List, Need to know a little diesel info tidbit. Being a Steam fan, I need help on this. When the SD-35's were DELIVERED in 1965?, did they or did they not, have the "Radio Equiped" Logo applied to the lower cab area similar to the GP-30's of a few years earlier? I am painting an Overland SD-35 and the owner wants it in the "as delivered" scheme. I am assuming it did NOT, due to the radio system used was then common at that time and no need to state so. But, maybe a Diesel fan knows better? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-35's Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:34:48 +0000 Gary and the List: I believe that the SD-35's were delivered in late 1965. According to my Trainsheet charts from Warsaw Tower, they did not show up on the Ft. Wayne Line until the later part of 1965. As for the Radio decal, I believe that it was applied in 1966 after the engines were delievered. Hence, the SD-35's, as delivered, should be without the decals. I will check some photos to confirm this for you. Ted Andrews >From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] SD-35's >Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:36:05 -0400 (EDT) > >List, > > Need to know a little diesel info tidbit. Being a Steam fan, I need >help on this. When the SD-35's were DELIVERED in 1965?, did they or did >they not, have the "Radio Equiped" Logo applied to the lower cab area >similar to the GP-30's of a few years earlier? I am painting an Overland >SD-35 and the owner wants it in the "as delivered" scheme. I am assuming >it did NOT, due to the radio system used was then common at that time >and no need to state so. But, maybe a Diesel fan knows better? Thanks, >Gary > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > >PRR Loco Pics: >http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > >& > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html >and...... > >PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:42:08 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals at MG Hi Mark! >OK, back to 1. Many (most?) towers that closed would fleet their >signals. In >essence, this takes an interlocking signal and makes it an automatic >signal. >On the NEC right now, the dispatchers will often fleet signals just >so that they don't have to keep manually setting them up - i.e. when >they have multiple similar movements. I've seen the Conrail dispatchers >fleet signals through the former HUDSON interlocking on the C&P main >as well. Really? I would have thought it would take a change in the general orders to do that, not the decision of a dispatcher...don't train crews need to know how the signal is operating before they see it?..OTOH, to them its a PROCEED or whatever... In a place like SMITHS, you could only fleet the signals when the controls were locked, adn there was no chance of using the interlocking for movements. An interesting question, to which I don't know the answer is - when the >signals >are fleeted and the interlocking station is not manned, do interlocking >rules still apply? I don't think so. When the tower is closed I think it is rule 251 that applies. However, as I noted above, any change in the rules would have to be noted either in the ETT, or in a general order of some kind. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-35's Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:42:13 +0000 While on the topic why did the PRR buy the SD35's over GP35's? I remember something about tractive effort but I am having senior month rather than moment. Thanks, Norm Bell > > Gary and the List: > > I believe that the SD-35's were delivered in late 1965. According to my > Trainsheet charts from Warsaw Tower, they did not show up on the Ft. Wayne > Line until the later part of 1965. > > As for the Radio decal, I believe that it was applied in 1966 after the > engines were delievered. Hence, the SD-35's, as delivered, should be without > the decals. I will check some photos to confirm this for you. > > Ted Andrews > > > >From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) > >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >Subject: [PRR] SD-35's > >Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:36:05 -0400 (EDT) > > > >List, > > > > Need to know a little diesel info tidbit. Being a Steam fan, I need > >help on this. When the SD-35's were DELIVERED in 1965?, did they or did > >they not, have the "Radio Equiped" Logo applied to the lower cab area > >similar to the GP-30's of a few years earlier? I am painting an Overland > >SD-35 and the owner wants it in the "as delivered" scheme. I am assuming > >it did NOT, due to the radio system used was then common at that time > >and no need to state so. But, maybe a Diesel fan knows better? Thanks, > >Gary > > > > > > > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > > >PRR Loco Pics: > >http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > >& > > > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > >and...... > > > >PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jedalberg@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:09:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars One of them was the "Cawabunga Falls", later converted to a 20 roomete car. JED ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-35's Ted, List, Thanks for the quick comfirmations. I would never have thought the Radio logo was used that late. But for the 1965 "as delivered" SD-45, I have my answer. Thanks again, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jedalberg@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:40:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails This is the only country in the world where you can send a letter anywhere for 37 cents and be 99.99 percent sure it will get to its destination in just a few days. Occasional horror stories notwithstanding. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:08:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Trains --part1_63.119bdafd.2ab3e5fe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would knock my grandmother over to get my hands on such a book! (Well, maybe not my grandmother!) I would actually like a similar book for a slightly earlier time period (1945-1950). Such books seem as rare as hen's teeth. Chuck Blardone sent me his list of available books but the earliest East-West book he has is 1958. Chris Baker --part1_63.119bdafd.2ab3e5fe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would knock my grandmother over to get my hands on such a book! (Well, maybe not my grandmother!) I would actually like a similar book for a slightly earlier time period (1945-1950). Such books seem as rare as hen's teeth. Chuck Blardone sent me his list of available books but the earliest East-West book he has is 1958.

Chris Baker --part1_63.119bdafd.2ab3e5fe_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:02:35 -0400 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [PRR] Re: Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper Subject: Re: [PRR] Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:24:48 -0400 > > On 9/12/02 10:45 PM, "Keith B Thompson" wrote: > > > Since so many folks have requested that I send them the paper on building PRR catenary I have uploaded it to my website. You can view and/or download it from: > > http://www.bit-net.com/~kbt/CATENARY.pdf > > > > (note that CATENARY must be caps) > > > > It is 1M byte so it may take some time to load for anyone on a dial-up connection. > > Copyright issue? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS Since Bill's older than I and may not remember, he sold the paper to MR back in the 70s. It's a technicality but as author, he can give a copy to anyone he wants. I was part of the gang in the 70's who'd go to his house on Brookhaven in Wallingford and ran his version of the PRR in the 4th floor of his 4 floor split level - warm in the summer - but we cooled off with Bill's favorite adult beverage at the time - little pony bottles of Rolling Rock - the 7 oz size. How did I remember; Bill was the first to sell an article to a national mag in our gang. Lots of great PRR & railfaning stories. MR still owns the publishing rights to the article even though they never published it. Did you ask permission of MR or Bill? Just because you have a copy of something, you do not have the right to distribute it - there are time limits. His copyright is good for 95 years - got another 60+ years. If I remember correctly, only anything before 1923 is now in the public domain. Knowing Bill, he would probably be tickled someone scanned the article and posted it on the `Net. I'm a touch frustrated because of the cavalier attitude about posting stuff on the `Net just because they have a copy. Look at the rampant copying and posting of copyrighted photos. Sorry for my rant - again, was permission asked for? and granted? -=- Bob Colquitt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:14:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Trains --part1_196.d23b7c7.2ab3e788_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I checked the publisher's website and the book is listed as a pre-publication offering. The savings is about $5.00. Does anyone know about this publisher? I've been burned more times than I'd like to admit on pre-publication offers for books that never get published! Here's the link to the listing: http://shop.sslonline.com/cgi-sz4/webc/sz41/accounts/a0013639/st_prod.html?p_p rodid=109&sid=8jw30t0Wh7od0cD-54102427422.f4 Chris Baker --part1_196.d23b7c7.2ab3e788_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I checked the publisher's website and the book is listed as a pre-publication offering. The savings is about $5.00. Does anyone know about this publisher? I've been burned more times than I'd like to admit on pre-publication offers for books that never get published!

Here's the link to the listing:

http://shop.sslonline.com/cgi-sz4/webc/sz41/accounts/a0013639/st_prod.html?p_prodid=109&sid=8jw30t0Wh7od0cD-54102427422.f4

Chris Baker --part1_196.d23b7c7.2ab3e788_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:11:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] 1890 South West Penna.Railway Land book for sale --part1_122.170bf62f.2ab3f4bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List Members I have for sale a predcessor RR of the PRR,The South West Pennsylvania Railway.It is a Railroad Land Book beginning July, 1890. It contains 169 pages of records of land transactions with the RR and individuals written by hand using a fountain pen. The book actually has over 450 pages but only 169 have anything recorded. The book has a leather cover which is still intact in good cond. but has the corners rubbed,cracking at the spine,normal conditions for a 112 year old book. Please contact OFF LIST only for pricing information. Right now unable to get pictures as I don't have the digital camera setup in the computer. Thank You. Pat McKinney PKMac101@aol.com --part1_122.170bf62f.2ab3f4bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List Members
I have for sale a predcessor RR of the PRR,The South West Pennsylvania Railway.It is a Railroad Land Book beginning July, 1890. It contains 169 pages of records of land transactions with the RR and individuals written by hand using a fountain pen. The book actually has over 450 pages but only 169 have anything recorded. The book has a leather cover which is still intact in good cond. but has the corners rubbed,cracking at the spine,normal conditions for a 112 year old book.
Please contact OFF LIST only for pricing information. Right now unable to get pictures as I don't have the digital camera setup in the computer. Thank You.

Pat McKinney PKMac101@aol.com

--part1_122.170bf62f.2ab3f4bf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:29:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Trains In a message dated 9/13/02 8:22:30 PM Central Daylight Time, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com writes: << Does anyone know about this publisher? I've been burned more times than I'd like to admit on pre-publication offers for books that never get published! >> The SP book is out and seems quite good, though even as an SPF, at a glance I noted a slight error of omission wherein what I believe is a horse-express car is simply identified as a "baggage" car. Loosely correct, but not precise. But it is difficult to produce books like this with a plethora of info without an occasional error. Having said that they have a track record, I too have been burned on prepublication offers and just don't participate in them anymore. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 22:57:11 -0400 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Trains Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > > I checked the publisher's website and the book is listed as a > pre-publication offering. The savings is about $5.00. Does anyone > know about this publisher? I've been burned more times than I'd like > to admit on pre-publication offers for books that never get published! > > Here's the link to the listing: > > http://shop.sslonline.com/cgi-sz4/webc/sz41/accounts/a0013639/st_prod.html?p_prodid=109&sid=8jw30t0Wh7od0cD-54102427422.f4 > > Chris Baker I've dealt with TLC for some years now. They are a reputable company but sometimes late on achieving their announced publishing/shipping dates. Tom (the owner) is pleasant to deal with and keeps an accurate order database. They've been the publishers for N&WT&HS for some years. IMHO, their books are extremely well done. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 23:06:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Trains --part1_b9.26966667.2ab4019e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the input. I've placed an on-line order for the book so we'll see what happens. At least I think my credit card company will offer me some recourse if the book never gets published. --part1_b9.26966667.2ab4019e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the input. I've placed an on-line order for the book so we'll see what happens. At least I think my credit card company will offer me some recourse if the book never gets published. --part1_b9.26966667.2ab4019e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:09:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] modeling PL via fiber optics and a mechanical rocker --part1_177.e8265c3.2ab41061_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/02 10:22:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: signals > From: "Nick Kulp" > Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:52:28 -0400 > > --=====================_22968067==.ALT > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > This is no longer a gag message and my apologies to the more serious > members of the list. The idea below has some merit. A few years ago I > remember an article in one of the magazines that used fiber-optic rods for > N scale signals. The "lights were provided via a mechanical linkage with a > colored lens gel used in photography and a "wig-wag" device that changed > the color of the searchlight signal. The same principle could be used for > position lights with the light source under the benchwork. The device is a > real possibility using a Tortise machine and the Tomar three position > semaphore linkage. > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > > > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: signals > >From: > >Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:44:59 +0000 > > > >Your comment got my creative juices flowing. I wonder if a mechanical > system > >could be developed Where the guts of the signal was a disk with yellow > band. > >By shining a light through the band the signal positon could be > >determined. By > >rotating the disk the different aspects could be obtained. Could be a lot > > >less > >wiring and controllable from a tortise motor or solenoid using a rod. > HMMM! Oddly, I found myself describing something similar last week to another modeler. Of course, I was doing a takeoff on Rick Rideout's searchlight signals, Rick lives west of me in Evansville IN and has a club-size L&N layout in his basement, modeling Evansville to Nashville). This is the Rick of Rix model railroad products, many of which feature injected styrene parts. I don't think they're offered commercially, but Rick lights his signals via one fiber optic pipe. Under the table, there's a rocker with three windows, each with colored plastic in it. A light shines into the end of the fiber optic, passing through one of the windows. The rocker hangs at red when not energized, yellow when DC polarity drives it one way, and green when the polarity is reversed - the actuator is much less robust than a switch machine. This rig makes the signal shine red, or (when powered) yellow or green. Adaptation to PL signals would be a little more complicated, as we'd need at least 7 optical fibers. But a slit to illuminate only a row of 3 at a time might be feasible - horizontal, diagonal, and vertical. Of course, in the real world, we need a signal driver anyway, to interface between the layout's controls and the signal. The electronic ability to turn on any 3 of 7 LED's at a time might be cheaper/faster than doing this with fiber optics. The fact that the outside lights come on in pairs probably makes electronics even cheaper. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_177.e8265c3.2ab41061_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/12/02 10:22:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Re: signals
From: "Nick Kulp" <caseyj@mail.igateway.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:52:28 -0400

--=====================_22968067==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

This is no longer a gag message and my apologies to the more serious
members of the list. The idea below has some merit. A few years ago I
remember an article in one of the magazines that used fiber-optic rods for
N scale signals. The "lights were provided via a mechanical linkage with a
colored lens gel used in photography and a "wig-wag" device that changed
the color of the searchlight signal. The same principle could be used for
position lights with the light source under the benchwork. The device is a
real possibility using a Tortise machine and the Tomar three position
semaphore linkage.

Regards,
Nick Kulp

>Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: signals
>From: <ndbprr@att.net>
>Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:44:59 +0000
>
>Your comment got my creative juices flowing. I wonder if a mechanical system
>could be developed Where the guts of the signal was a disk with yellow band.
>By shining a light through the band the signal positon could be
>determined. By
>rotating the disk the different aspects could be obtained. Could be a lot
>less
>wiring and controllable from a tortise motor or solenoid using a rod. HMMM!

Oddly, I found myself describing something similar last week to another modeler. Of course, I was doing a takeoff on Rick Rideout's searchlight signals,

Rick lives west of me in Evansville IN and has a club-size L&N layout in his basement, modeling Evansville to Nashville). This is the Rick of Rix model railroad products, many of which feature injected styrene parts. I don't think they're offered commercially, but Rick lights his signals via one fiber optic pipe. Under the table, there's a rocker with three windows, each with colored plastic in it. A light shines into the end of the fiber optic, passing through one of the windows. The rocker hangs at red when not energized, yellow when DC polarity drives it one way, and green when the polarity is reversed - the actuator is much less robust than a switch machine. This rig makes the signal shine red, or (when powered) yellow or green.

Adaptation to PL signals would be a little more complicated, as we'd need at least 7 optical fibers. But a slit to illuminate only a row of 3 at a time might be feasible - horizontal, diagonal, and vertical.

Of course, in the real world, we need a signal driver anyway, to interface between the layout's controls and the signal. The electronic ability to turn on any 3 of 7 LED's at a time might be cheaper/faster than doing this with fiber optics. The fact that the outside lights come on in pairs probably makes electronics even cheaper.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_177.e8265c3.2ab41061_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 02:30:37 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] RE: SD35 >>>Need to know a little diesel info tidbit. Being a Steam fan, I need >>>help on this. When the SD-35's were DELIVERED in 1965?, did they or did >>>they not, have the "Radio Equiped" Logo applied to the lower cab area . . . In "Pennsylvania Railroad, Diesel Locomotive Manual, Volume Three, Second-Generation EMD Road Switchers", page 164 shows SD35s 6002,6030, & 6036. 6036 is too far back in the photo but 6002 and 6030 don't have "radio-equipped" decals. Caption states the units are less than a year old on Aug 14, 1965. Page 167 has a photo of 6011 with the "radio-equipped" decal on May 20, 1968. Caption states, "Like the GP35s, the SD35s were delivered without "radio-equipped" decals, so an "R" was stenciled on the frame, and in the case of 6011 . . . on the front lifting pad." Also 6016 is shown on page 168 without decal, caption states "straight from the erecting shop . . . March 1965." __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:54:37 -0400 Thank you very much Bob. It seems that so many people on this list have the interest to be thee "infosource focal point" for all, and disregard the source for information itself. I gave a copy of Bill Kachel's Catenary to 2 people for personal use with strict directions not to be posted. Ofcourse, their seems to be a group of people on this list that have no regard for anothers work. I found it very distasteful that my recommendations for posting were inadvertently ignored. Furthermore, I strongly believe the work of Bill Kachel is being distributed discourteously with no respect to the author's permission. This issue falls into the category of proper vs. improper. This is only my opinion. I knew it would end up on a list somewhere. I will never forward copyrighted information to another again. For those who wish to have the information, you may blame the few who want everything to be POSTED. I have respect for those who work to achieve something extra-ordinary. What does it matter anyway. How many people who now have the directions on building PRR style catenary will have the drive and determination to actually build it? Building catenary ultimately will be left for the detail oriented individuals who share the ability to focus on constructing difficult projects. Others will need to just buy it(modelmemories). You can pull a brass engine out of a box, but there is nothing like super detailing your own locomotive. Putting the time into the research end of the project, and all the other aspects of the hobby that mainstream America has seemed to forgot. You can buy it, but you wont get satisfaction talking about it unless you actually applied each grab iron, masked the body for painting, applied the numbers to the side of the headlight, reworked the drive to make it run like a clock, etc, etc, etc. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bob Colquitt Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 9:03 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper Subject: Re: [PRR] Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 06:24:48 -0400 > > On 9/12/02 10:45 PM, "Keith B Thompson" wrote: > > > Since so many folks have requested that I send them the paper on building PRR catenary I have uploaded it to my website. You can view and/or download it from: > > http://www.bit-net.com/~kbt/CATENARY.pdf > > > > (note that CATENARY must be caps) > > > > It is 1M byte so it may take some time to load for anyone on a dial-up connection. > > Copyright issue? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS Since Bill's older than I and may not remember, he sold the paper to MR back in the 70s. It's a technicality but as author, he can give a copy to anyone he wants. I was part of the gang in the 70's who'd go to his house on Brookhaven in Wallingford and ran his version of the PRR in the 4th floor of his 4 floor split level - warm in the summer - but we cooled off with Bill's favorite adult beverage at the time - little pony bottles of Rolling Rock - the 7 oz size. How did I remember; Bill was the first to sell an article to a national mag in our gang. Lots of great PRR & railfaning stories. MR still owns the publishing rights to the article even though they never published it. Did you ask permission of MR or Bill? Just because you have a copy of something, you do not have the right to distribute it - there are time limits. His copyright is good for 95 years - got another 60+ years. If I remember correctly, only anything before 1923 is now in the public domain. Knowing Bill, he would probably be tickled someone scanned the article and posted it on the `Net. I'm a touch frustrated because of the cavalier attitude about posting stuff on the `Net just because they have a copy. Look at the rampant copying and posting of copyrighted photos. Sorry for my rant - again, was permission asked for? and granted? -=- Bob Colquitt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] 1890 South West Penna.Railway Land book for sale Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:58:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C25BDD.A2F8A760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry- What 2 days a month are list members permitted for posting sale items? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of PKMac101@aol.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 10:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] 1890 South West Penna.Railway Land book for sale List Members I have for sale a predcessor RR of the PRR,The South West Pennsylvania Railway.It is a Railroad Land Book beginning July, 1890. It contains 169 pages of records of land transactions with the RR and individuals written by hand using a fountain pen. The book actually has over 450 pages but only 169 have anything recorded. The book has a leather cover which is still intact in good cond. but has the corners rubbed,cracking at the spine,normal conditions for a 112 year old book. Please contact OFF LIST only for pricing information. Right now unable to get pictures as I don't have the digital camera setup in the computer. Thank You. Pat McKinney PKMac101@aol.com ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C25BDD.A2F8A760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jerry-

Wh= at 2 days a month are list members permitted for posting sale = items?

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of PKMac101@aol.com
Sent: Friday, September = 13, 2002 10:11 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] 1890 South = West Penna.Railway Land book for sale

List = Members
= I have for sale a predcessor RR of the PRR,The South West Pennsylvania = Railway.It is a Railroad Land Book beginning July, 1890. It contains 169 pages of = records of land transactions with the RR and individuals written by hand using a = fountain pen. The book actually has over 450 pages but only 169 have = anything recorded. The book has a leather cover which is still intact in good = cond. but has the corners rubbed,cracking at the spine,normal conditions for a 112 = year old book.
Please contact OFF LIST only for pricing = information. Right now unable to get pictures as I don't have the digital camera = setup in the computer. Thank You.

Pat McKinney PKMac101@aol.com<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C25BDD.A2F8A760-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:38:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR vista-domes: maybe The December 1959 Official Guide lists on page 243, in the PRR section, Equipment--Table H, the consist of 90 & 93 The South Wind. It states "Chicago to Miami---(Vista-Dome)---( 4 roometts, 4 Duplex Rooms, 4 Double Bedrooms). ( 24 Dome Lounge Seats for Pullman passengers only.) This along with the thread on Budd cars raises some interesting issues. Were these cars, need 2 to protect the schedule, PRR owned? Probably not. How were they painted, tuscan, natural SS, or foreign road? In the Budd thread there was some statements that leads one to believe that foreign road cars on the SW were either tuscan, or later on SS, but both with the PRR roadname or letterboards. So, just maybe, there were at least 2 vista-domes with PRR on them. What if the #*#* manufacturers that made all those PRR vista-domes were right all along? Can't wait for the feedback. Jerry Finefrock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:51:00 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re: modeling PL via fiber optics and a mechanical rocker --=====================_3355169==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Rick, >Of course, in the real world, we need a signal driver anyway, to interface >between the layout's controls and the signal. The electronic ability to turn >on any 3 of 7 LED's at a time might be cheaper/faster than doing this with >fiber optics. The fact that the outside lights come on in pairs probably >makes electronics even cheaper. Thanks for jogging my memory about where I saw that gizmo. I have the video of Rick's gorgeous L&N layout. Rick also uses the C/MRI for his CTC panel. I too am a C/MRI user as I have stated in other posts. I use signals with LEDs and I originally had the signals wired with the center LED illuminated seperately and the other sets of LEDs were wired to the outputs from the interface. That method worked but it required another set of wires for the center LED. I have since learned how to eliminate the extra wires. The center LED can be wired "reversed" and can act as the common lead to the othe sets. When a set is illuminated the center LED automatically lights. This also makes all of the LEDs have the same intensity. The other method caused the center LED to glow noticibly brighter. This way the wiring is the same as if you were wiring three LEDs with one common lead, 4 wires instead of 6. Regards, Nick From: >Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:09:05 EDT > > >Oddly, I found myself describing something similar last week to another >modeler. Of course, I was doing a takeoff on Rick Rideout's searchlight >signals, > >Rick lives west of me in Evansville IN and has a club-size L&N layout in his >basement, modeling Evansville to Nashville). This is the Rick of Rix model >railroad products, many of which feature injected styrene parts. I don't >think they're offered commercially, but Rick lights his signals via one fiber >optic pipe. Under the table, there's a rocker with three windows, each with >colored plastic in it. A light shines into the end of the fiber optic, >passing through one of the windows. The rocker hangs at red when not >energized, yellow when DC polarity drives it one way, and green when the >polarity is reversed - the actuator is much less robust than a switch >machine. This rig makes the signal shine red, or (when powered) yellow or >green. > >Adaptation to PL signals would be a little more complicated, as we'd need at >least 7 optical fibers. But a slit to illuminate only a row of 3 at a time >might be feasible - horizontal, diagonal, and vertical. > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West --=====================_3355169==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Rick,

Of course, in the real world, we need a signal driver anyway, to interface
between the layout's controls and the signal. The electronic ability to turn
on any 3 of 7 LED's at a time might be cheaper/faster than doing this with
fiber optics. The fact that the outside lights come on in pairs probably
makes electronics even cheaper.

Thanks for jogging my memory about where I saw that gizmo. I have the video of Rick's gorgeous L&N layout. Rick also uses the C/MRI for his CTC panel. I too am a C/MRI user as I have stated in other posts. I use signals with LEDs and I originally had the signals wired with the center LED illuminated seperately and the other sets of LEDs were wired to the outputs from the interface. That method worked but it required another set of wires for the center LED. I have since learned how to eliminate the extra wires. The center LED can be wired "reversed" and can act as the common lead to the othe sets. When a set is illuminated the center LED automatically lights. This also makes all of the LEDs have the same intensity. The other method caused the center LED to glow noticibly brighter. This way the wiring is the same as if you were wiring three LEDs with one common lead, 4 wires instead of 6.

Regards,
Nick
From: <RickTipton@aol.com>

Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:09:05 EDT

Oddly, I found myself describing something similar last week to another
modeler. Of course, I was doing a takeoff on Rick Rideout's searchlight
signals,

Rick lives west of me in Evansville IN and has a club-size L&N layout in his
basement, modeling Evansville to Nashville). This is the Rick of Rix model
railroad products, many of which feature injected styrene parts. I don't
think they're offered commercially, but Rick lights his signals via one fiber
optic pipe. Under the table, there's a rocker with three windows, each with
colored plastic in it. A light shines into the end of the fiber optic,
passing through one of the windows. The rocker hangs at red when not
energized, yellow when DC polarity drives it one way, and green when the
polarity is reversed - the actuator is much less robust than a switch
machine. This rig makes the signal shine red, or (when powered) yellow or
green.

Adaptation to PL signals would be a little more complicated, as we'd need at
least 7 optical fibers. But a slit to illuminate only a row of 3 at a time
might be feasible - horizontal, diagonal, and vertical.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
                        (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West

--=====================_3355169==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] N scale H21s Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 13:36:46 -0500 Hello all, I have recently received my first set of Bowser N scale H-21 hopper cars. The set I received was the second 12 number car set, does anyone know where I may be able to get my hands on the first run set still? I am looking to increase my fleet to 26 instead of the 14 I have right now (2 shadow keystone ones). Thanks for any pointers. Jeremy Helms ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vista-domes: maybe I could be wrong but the train you are refering to has "L&N" passenger equipment. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:21:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Model Signal Lighting --part1_c9.28450094.2ab4e629_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a look as surface mount LEDs (light emitting diodes) for modeling in limited space applications. Surface mount components are basically small chips made to solder directly to a printed circuit such as the motherboard and plug-in boards in your PC. We have used them to model the PRR marker lights in the ends of HO and O coaches. 30 AWG wire-wrap wire or bulk armature wire (enamel coated wire for making inductive coils and rewinding motor armatures) were attached to the surface mount LED then the wires run beneath the floor to a sewitch and lithium batteries hidden, where else, in the car's battery box or ice box. The surface mount red LEDs had their lenses filed down so as to be fflush with the tiny marker lamp holes in the car ends. The effect is awesome and the surface mount chips could easily be mounted behind the target head of a PRR signal in HO or larger. These LEDs have a typical current draw of less than 10 milliamps, usually 8 mils. I have seen the white colored surface mounts on commercial boards but have as of yet to see them sold separately. They are probably out there, I just haven't run across them yet. One for the N scalers, a black disk with a white stripe across it. The disk is rotated behind the signal head to give the desired aspect. Saw this on a layout near Sharlettsville, Pa. with the effect being very good in daylight. The disk rests in the approach-medium position with no power applied, then two tiny coils moved it to the stop and the clear position. One coil pulls down on one side of the disk for the stop and the second coil pulls down on the other side of the disk for the clear. When power was removed, the weight on the push rods pulled the signal back to approach-medium. The signals were controlled either by auxillary contacts on the turnout machines or manual switches on the control panel. The mechanisms worked great but the work involved convinced me that solid-state electronics is the easier route. Evan Leisey --part1_c9.28450094.2ab4e629_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a look as surface mount LEDs (light emitting diodes) for modeling in limited space applications. Surface mount components are basically small chips made to solder directly to a printed circuit such as the motherboard and plug-in boards in your PC.

We have used them to model the PRR marker lights in the ends of HO and O coaches. 30 AWG wire-wrap wire or bulk armature wire (enamel coated wire for making inductive coils and rewinding motor armatures) were attached to the surface mount LED then the wires run beneath the floor to a sewitch and lithium batteries hidden, where else, in the car's battery box or ice box. The surface mount red LEDs had their lenses filed down so as to be fflush with the tiny marker lamp holes in the car ends. The effect is awesome and the surface mount chips could easily be mounted behind the target head of a PRR signal in HO or larger. These LEDs have a typical current draw of less than 10 milliamps, usually 8 mils. I have seen the white colored surface mounts on commercial boards but have as of yet to see them sold separately. They are probably out there, I just haven't run across them yet.

One for the N scalers, a black disk with a white stripe across it. The disk is rotated behind the signal head to give the desired aspect. Saw this on a layout near Sharlettsville, Pa. with the effect being very good in daylight. The disk rests in the approach-medium position with no power applied, then two tiny coils moved it to the stop and the clear position. One coil pulls down on one side of the disk for the stop and the second coil pulls down on the other side of the disk for the clear. When power was removed, the weight on the push rods pulled the signal back to approach-medium. The signals were controlled either by auxillary contacts on the turnout machines or manual switches on the control panel. The mechanisms worked great but the work involved convinced me that solid-state electronics is the easier route.

Evan Leisey --part1_c9.28450094.2ab4e629_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: RE: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:22:28 +1000 Sorry Jim, but that's rubbish. A letter here in Australia is handled just as well for 45 cents but them's aussie cents, which equates to about 25 US cents. I also think you may be surprised by how good postal services are in some places in Europe as well. Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jedalberg@aol.com Sent: Saturday, 14 September 2002 8:40 am To: AHARTPRR137@aol.com; leeprrswitchkey@msn.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails This is the only country in the world where you can send a letter anywhere for 37 cents and be 99.99 percent sure it will get to its destination in just a few days. Occasional horror stories notwithstanding. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] Pullman 242 Trucks - Construction Article Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:36:07 -0400 Do you model heavyweight Pullman cars? With NERS parts. Then you most likely will need Pullman 242 type trucks for some of you cars. Here is a web page article on creating this style of truck from an AHM / IHC / Rivarossi truck frame. http://varnish.pennsyrr.com/TRUCK242.html Garry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:00:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vista-domes: maybe --part1_4c.118a8877.2ab50b86_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the domes operated in the consists of the South Wind were borrowed seasonally from the Empire Builder or the North Coast Limited, They would have been in the owner's paint scheme. --part1_4c.118a8877.2ab50b86_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the domes operated in the consists of the South Wind were borrowed seasonally from the Empire Builder or the North Coast Limited, They would have been in the owner's paint scheme. --part1_4c.118a8877.2ab50b86_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:22:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vista-domes: maybe In a message dated 9/14/02 5:08:48 PM Central Daylight Time, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com writes: <> Unlike the IC which repainted them in their colors for the winter Florida runs, Pennsy did indeed run the NP North Coast Limited dome as-is. I can't find the photos, but can anyone else verify whether these were smooth side domes or the "slabside" Budds that later ran on Amtrak's Capitol Limited (I believe the IC cars were the latter)? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vista-domes: maybe Photo of NP dome in consist (South Wind) on page 9 and page 19 of Pennsy Disel Years Vol.6 Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:53:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] re PRR Vista domes --part1_1a3.8a06950.2ab517fb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The domes I believe were seasonally borrowed from the Northern Pacific by the ILLINOIS CENTRAL and painted in the ICs Chocolate and Orange paint scheme. There was an article some time ago in Passenger Train Journel ( no longer published) on the cars. Of note also is that for a short time The Great Northern borrowed some Pennsy Sleeper Obs ( not the Broadway's Obs.) for use on its Empire Builder trains. Again the article was in Passenger Train Journal. --part1_1a3.8a06950.2ab517fb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The domes I believe were seasonally borrowed from the Northern Pacific by the ILLINOIS CENTRAL and painted in the ICs Chocolate and Orange paint scheme. There was an article some time ago in Passenger Train Journel ( no longer published) on the cars. Of note also is that for a short time The Great Northern borrowed some Pennsy Sleeper Obs ( not the Broadway's Obs.) for use on its Empire Builder trains. Again the article was in Passenger Train Journal. --part1_1a3.8a06950.2ab517fb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:05:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vista-domes: maybe Jerry, Bob & folks, Yessir, these stayed in NP colors while heading down to sunnier regions. They were from a group of 7 built in 1954 for the North Coast Ltd by Budd. The book, "From Zephyr to Amtrak" has a photo of one in service, as does Dorin's book "Domeliners" if I recall. The photo shows a corregated roof and 'smooth' sides, though having two horizontal lines below the window panel, if that makes it a slabsided car. Brass Car Sides may offer this side in HO scale, it seems. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:03:45 -0400 What is the differences in "Lines West" and other PRR signal bridges????? Earl Myers, PRRT&HS Member ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals > > > I have a catolog from Integrated Signal Systems. They have some > nice PRR PL signals in HO (led). I saw thier PL signals at a rail hobby > show and they looked really good. ISS also makes PRR dwarf signals but > I've heard they are off scale wise. No one makes a PRR pedestal type > signal. > ISS will build the signals and relays to fit your layout needs. > They also have signal bridges. Sorry, no "Lines West" style bridges. > All of the PRR aspects can be done. Even the Red "Snake Eyes" Stop > aspect (1954) found on home signals and some automatic PLs can be done. > We haven't reached that point on the layout I'm working on but > it's going to be interesting. Ain't nothing standard about signals on > the "Standard Railroad of the World". > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Another N scale H21 question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:29:21 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 15 Sep, "Jeremy & Soni Helms" wrote: > One more quick question on the H21 in N scale, just started coupler > replacement on the first car and ran into a problem. I could not get the > original truck mounted coupler box off of the truck, how do you remove > these? Is there a special trick to it? Thanks for any help on this one. You just cut it off. Can't go back. I use diagonal cutters of no great precision. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] Another N scale H21 question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 01:11:42 -0500 Hello again all, One more quick question on the H21 in N scale, just started coupler replacement on the first car and ran into a problem. I could not get the original truck mounted coupler box off of the truck, how do you remove these? Is there a special trick to it? Thanks for any help on this one. Jeremy Helms ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "trainstuffllc" Subject: [PRR] painting question Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:36:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C25CA3.D1AB8A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know this is not a scale or prototype related question. I was at an = Antique fair yesterday where I happened to purchase a beautifully = detailed cast iron fire plate. Anyone have any suggestions on what type = of paint I can use to paint it? It has a steam locomotive coming down a = mountain and through some trees. I don't need to worry about the paint = being fireproof. I just want to paint the scene rather than leaving it = all black. I want to put it into a non working fireplace and put a light = on it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Dayna Warner CEO Trainstuff LLC www.trainstuffllc.com ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C25CA3.D1AB8A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I know this is not a scale or = prototype related=20 question. I was at an Antique fair yesterday where I happened to = purchase=20 a beautifully detailed cast iron fire plate. Anyone have any suggestions = on what=20 type of paint I can use to paint it? It has a steam locomotive coming = down a=20 mountain and through some trees. I don't need to worry about the = paint=20 being fireproof. I just want to paint the scene rather than leaving it = all=20 black. I want to put it into a non working fireplace and put a light on=20 it.

Any suggestions would be=20 appreciated.

Dayna Warner CEO
Trainstuff = LLC
www.trainstuffllc.com

------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C25CA3.D1AB8A20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 11:37:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale H21s From: Jerry Britton On 9/14/02 2:36 PM, "Jeremy & Soni Helms" wrote: > I have recently received my first set of Bowser N scale H-21 hopper cars. > The set I received was the second 12 number car set, does anyone know where > I may be able to get my hands on the first run set still? I am looking to > increase my fleet to 26 instead of the 14 I have right now (2 shadow > keystone ones). Thanks for any pointers. > Merchandise Service (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) still has TWO complete sets of the first series in Circle Keystone. (For those who gripe about ads, I am responding to a request, not making an original post!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:49:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Signal Lighting Evan suggests use of surface-mount LEDs for signals; this is along the lines I have been thinking too, but I haven't tried anything yet. Comercially available SM LEDs seem to mostly be square in shape, which might be a problem; the smallest size I have seen is .079" on a side, which is something like six inches in HO. Now, how to mount them? I had been thinking that the target itself would be a PC board. Thinnest common PC boards are 1/16", or about 5-6" HO scale. Some sort of cover might be needed over the PC traces (presumably, on the front of the target) to hide the etched traces. The traces might be arranged to put appropriate LEDs in a series connection (e.g., the three LEDs that form the "Stop" indication might all be in series on a position light signal). Just some ideas to bounce around. Do the commercially available signals use any of these techniques? John Bobsn ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:52:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [RM-forum] PENNSYmodeler-group I wonder if anyone told Jim Six that htere was a PRR-Modeling Group on Yahoo? Perhaps someone should. I just did, LOL LOL LOL ! No snese in trying to re-invet the wheel here Jim, just join in with the rest of us. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:32:54 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals --=====================_6573765==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Listers, This is not a bash of ISS but I feel it is necessary for anyone that is going to build a signaling system, to know about the differences in the processes of supplying a customer's requests. Last year I was looking for a source for pre-assembled PRR PL signals. A well-known and respected modeler mentioned ISS and I contacted them. At the time, the old owner was in the process of retiring and his partner was taking over the business. H egave me the old owner's email address so I could contact him. I placed an order for 2 signal heads and one cantaliever two-track bridge. All emails I sent to the address I was provided with went unanswered. After a month, I recontacted the new owner (long-distance call, no email address) and asked about the status of my order and why noone answered my emails, since my check had already cleared and was cashed over three weeks ago. I was told that the old owner doesn't read his email and the order was "misplaced" and that the transfer of the business was not going as well as expected since the new owner was using the old workshop in the retired owner's home and was subject to the home-owner's schedule. After three more weeks and one more tense phonecall, I finally got my signals. They were pre-wired and ready to go. I had a few of the Oregon Rail Supply signals in place on the layout already and they looked good but were a pain to install LEDs in them. The ISS signal heads were grossly over-sized and made the old NJ International signals with light bulbs look small. The LEDs that were used were a LOT larger than the miniature ones on the ORS signals. Needless to say, they didn't look very well against the ORS signal heads. I also recieved my signal bridge which turned out to be a bag of brass parts, no mention of it being a brass structure was made in the catalog. Since I did not own a resistance soldering rig, the bridge was worthless to me. I contacted the new owner and explained the problem and requested that I be able to trade in the bridge for two more signal heads. I would pay the difference. He accomodated my request and I got the signal heads within the week. I have since decided to go with the ORS signal heads mounted on Bachmann signal bridges. The ISS heads will be installed on a brass 4-track NJ International signal bridge in a remote portion of the layout that enters a staging area, far from the more visible portion of the layout. Since this unpleasant occurance I have made a desision to avoid dealers that do not have means to distribute their product through hobby shops or direct email. If I would have been able to see the signals before I bought them, I would not have made the purchase. Some modelers would not be bothered by the oversized signal heads and would accept them since they came assembled. I choose not to. I have no axe to grind with ISS but I will not place any more orders with them. Their prices are not bad for their product but I would rather have something closer to scale on my layout. My opinion only, Nick Kulp >From: "Derrick J Brashear" >Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT) > >On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > > > List- > > > > Anybody know URL address for Integrated Signal Systems. > > Google & others could not locate it. > >No URL, they aren't on line. > --=====================_6573765==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Listers,

This is not a bash of ISS but I feel it is necessary for anyone that is going to build a signaling system, to know about the differences in the processes of supplying a customer's requests.

Last year I was looking for a source for pre-assembled PRR PL signals. A well-known and respected modeler mentioned ISS and I contacted them. At the time, the old owner was in the process of retiring and his partner was taking over the business. H egave me the old owner's email address so I could contact him. I placed an order for 2 signal heads and one cantaliever two-track bridge. All emails I sent to the address I was provided with went unanswered. After a month, I recontacted the new owner (long-distance call, no email address) and asked about the status of my order and why noone answered my emails, since my check had already cleared and was cashed over three weeks ago. I was told that the old owner doesn't read his email and the order was "misplaced" and that the transfer of the business was not going as well as expected since the new owner was using the old workshop in the retired owner's home and was subject to the home-owner's schedule. After three more weeks and one more tense phonecall, I finally got my signals. They were pre-wired and ready to go. I had a few of the Oregon Rail Supply signals in place on the layout already and they looked good but were a pain to install LEDs in them. The ISS signal heads were grossly over-sized and made the old NJ International signals with light bulbs look small. The LEDs that were used were a LOT larger than the miniature ones on the ORS signals. Needless to say, they didn't look very well against the ORS signal heads.

I also recieved my signal bridge which turned out to be a bag of brass parts, no mention of it being a brass structure was made in the catalog. Since I did not own a resistance soldering rig, the bridge was worthless to me. I contacted the new owner and explained the problem and requested that I be able to trade in the bridge for two more signal heads. I would pay the difference. He accomodated my request and I got the signal heads within the week. I have since decided to go with the ORS signal heads mounted on Bachmann signal bridges. The ISS heads will be installed on a brass 4-track NJ International signal bridge in a remote portion of the layout that enters a staging area, far from the more visible portion of the layout.

Since this unpleasant occurance I have made a desision to avoid dealers that do not have means to distribute their product through hobby shops or direct email. If I would have been able to see the signals before I bought them, I would not have made the purchase.

Some modelers would not be bothered by the oversized signal heads and would accept them since they came assembled. I choose not to. I have no axe to grind with ISS but I will not place any more orders with them. Their prices are not bad for their product but I would rather have something closer to scale on my layout.

My opinion only,
Nick Kulp

From: "Derrick J Brashear" <shadow@dementia.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:19:00 -0400 (EDT)

On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote:

> List-
>
> Anybody know URL address for Integrated Signal Systems.
> Google & others could not locate it.

No URL, they aren't on line.

--=====================_6573765==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 20:27:54 -0700 Wasn't someone on this list working on a project to mass produce PL signals for their layout? Was it the same person working to accurately model Midway Interlocking? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:06:27 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: Re: [PRR] Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper Hello, It's so nice to open your email and read all the supportive comments regarding Mr. Kachel's paper. In hopes that this is the last of the off topic posts, the answer is yes - I have cleared sending the paper with Bill. However, I should amend my original post and state that the paper is for personal noncommercial use only. That said, if you are into modeling catenary, take a look at the paper, I found it helpful. Though I've not seen it, Bill's layout sounds fantastic. He is planning to have it on a layout tour at next year's PRRT&HS convention, a must see for us electric fans. Regards, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:21:02 -0500 I am sorry, but my mail service is no where near 99.99% of perfection. -----Original Message----- From: Jedalberg@aol.com [mailto:Jedalberg@aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 5:40 PM To: AHARTPRR137@aol.com; leeprrswitchkey@msn.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails This is the only country in the world where you can send a letter anywhere for 37 cents and be 99.99 percent sure it will get to its destination in just a few days. Occasional horror stories notwithstanding. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:25:17 -0500 Are you sure. "Cawabunga" was the epitaph that the Indian Chief uttered on the Howdy Doody show when I was a boy! -----Original Message----- From: Jedalberg@aol.com [mailto:Jedalberg@aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 5:09 PM To: Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars One of them was the "Cawabunga Falls", later converted to a 20 roomete car. JED ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Hello Earl, A"Lines West" signal bridge has the round steel plates at the top ends of the bridge. Most of those types of signal bridges are west of Altoona(?). Many more west of Pittsburgh. MG and BENNY interlockings have the bridges. Many photos of the Lines West bridges are in various PRR books. Check out Pennsy Diesel Years Vol.2,page 100. You can clearly see the difference between a "L.W." bridge and a standard PRR bridge. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] AAR Mechanical Designations Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:42:27 -0400 Lists: If y'all need a printable list of the AAR Mechanical Designations of the different types of freight cars, such as appear in the "Official Railway Equipment Register" go to http://www.trains.com and look at the right under "Model trains". From there you can access a printable list. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:46:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Keystones for sale. Hi, In the process of trying to fill in my collection, extras have been aquired so I have the following Keystone Magazines for sale. Summer 1994 Vol 27 N 2 Panhandle Div Pt ll Winter 1995 Vol 28 N 4 K5 & Requiem for the Broadway Limited Spring 1996 Vol 29 N 1 (2) Sunnyside Yard Winter 1996 Vol 29 N 4 Overhead catenary All are very good to excellent condition. Interested parties contact me at: albertsr@attbi.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:16:10 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails You may be right, if your world spans from the Pacific eastward to the Atlantic. But there are other worlds beyond the horizon... ;-) with alien greetings, Burkhard Jedalberg@aol.com schrieb: > This is the only country in the world where you can send a letter anywhere > for 37 cents and be 99.99 percent sure it will get to its destination in just > a few days. Occasional horror stories notwithstanding. > Jim > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:43:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Circulation and The Mails We know it's been all down hill since the NY & Wash RPO died. John Bobsin PS, Burkhard, what is the cost of an ordinary letter, say 30 grams, one ounce? Is it less than 0.5 Euro, which would put it in the same range as the US? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: gpierson@trnty.edu From: George.Pierson@trnty.edu Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:51:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FYI Panhandle lecture Hi, everyone, For those in the Chicago area, I just found out about a lecture to be given this Wednesday, Sept. 18th, at 7:30 pm entitled "X Marks the Spot: The Panhandle RR and the Development of Washington Heights." The location is 10621 S. Seeley, Chicago, at the Driscoll House, where the Ridge Historical Society meets. The flier suggests that seating is limited so RSVP to 773-881- 1675. A $6 donation is suggested. For background, Washington Heights is the local neighorhood name for the south side Chicago area more broadly known as Beverly, between about 91st and 111th Sts. The Panhandle crossed the Rock Island suburban and main line tracks in this area but have been gone for a number of years. I don't know how "railroady" this talk will be but I may go to find out. George Pierson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:57:13 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR No. 12-A Diesel Electric Road Locomotives Operating Instructions Speaking of the first Pennsy road dieselsâ€¦ Before we auction it off, I've been examining the following booklet, issued at a time when enginemen were still being retrained to run diesels: PRR No. 12A The Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Electric Road Locomotives Operating Instructions for Locomotive Enginemen, Firemen, and Helpers June 2, 1949 Approved by H.T. Cover, Chief of Motive Power The first thing noticeable is that locomotive classification is still the same scheme it was in 1945. At that time, diesel road loco classes were: AP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Alco passenger locomotive, later AP20 or PA-PB-PA) AF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Alco freight locomotive, later AF15 or FA1-FB1-FB1-FA1) BP-1 (a semipermanently coupled set of "Centipedes", later BP60) BP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose passenger locomotive, later BP20) BF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose freight locomotive, later BF15) EP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp EMD passenger locomotive, later EP20 or E7A) EF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp EMD freight locomotive, later EF15 or F3A-F3B-F3B-F3A) FP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse passenger locomotive, later FP-20) FF-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse freight locomotive, later FF-20) I'm told that this was actually the second loco classification scheme used, so this leads me to two questions: 1. When did this intermediate scheme take over? (obviously no later than 1945, judging from the 109J Classification and Description I have) 2. When was the more familiar scheme adopted? (obviously no earlier than June 1949). After 127 pages of general info on Diesel electrics, this book starts in by class with details of operating and maintaining the locomotives. Each section is somewhat reminiscent of an EMD op manual, except there are no illustrations. There are quite a number of troubleshooting sequences for locating and fixing equipment problems (especially electrical ones). >From time to time there are some very practical zingers - for example, the EP-3 directions tell how to frustrate the automatic operation of the middle radiator shutters if they cool the engines too much in cold weather. In another hint, there's a table of minimum speeds to maintain in each notch if the load ammeter is not working. My favorite is a workaround for controlling from the lead F-3 unit even if its batteries are low and the auxiliary generators are "inoperative" - it uses a sneak circuit to borrow control power from a functioning trailing unit. Instructions for the BF-4 tell how to do the same thing on Baldwin freight sharks, but in addition it recommends closing one of the contactors "using flag stick" - presumably to avoid an electrical burn from the flashover. In a way, it's curious that PRR "rewrote" the vendors' operating manuals. But I suspect: 1. As usual, the Pennsy was doing it their own way 2. Motive power forces were passing on info they had learned during the break-in cycle on these locomotives. Some of this must be informal hints from the manufacturers' service reps who installed the locomotives. 3. This book made a "testable" text for qualifying both new men and the old heads who were coming out of steam locomotive cabs. This half-inch-thick book, with stained, heavy cardboard covers, is in good condition inside, and will be auctioned via email (not eBay) as item 4106 on List 16 of the Jack Fravert collection, closing October 2. If you're interested, please contact meâ€¦ Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:57:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR No. 12-A Diesel Electric Road Locomotives Operating --part1_81.2160d3ff.2ab73d39_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of the first Pennsy road diesels=E2=80=A6 Before we auction it off, I've been examining the following booklet, issued=20 at a time when enginemen were still being retrained to run diesels: PRR No. 12A The Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Electric Road Locomotives Operating Instructions for Locomotive Enginemen, Firemen, and Helpers June 2, 1949 Approved by H.T. Cover, Chief of Motive Power The first thing noticeable is that locomotive classification is still the=20 same scheme it was in 1945. At that time, diesel road loco classes were: AP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Alco passenger locomotive, later AP20 or PA-PB-PA) AF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Alco freight locomotive, later AF15 or FA1-FB1-FB1-FA1) BP-1 (a semipermanently coupled set of "Centipedes", later BP60) BP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose passenger locomotive, later BP20) BF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose freight locomotive, later BF15) EP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp EMD passenger locomotive, later EP20 or E7A) EF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp EMD freight locomotive, later EF15 or F3A-F3B-F3B-F3A) FP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse passenger locomotive, later FP-20) FF-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse freight locomotive, later FF-20) I'm told that this was actually the second loco classification scheme used,=20 so this leads me to two questions: 1. When did this intermediate scheme take over? (obviously no later than=20 1945, judging from the 109J Classification and Description I have) 2. When was the more familiar scheme adopted? (obviously no earlier than Jun= e=20 1949). After 127 pages of general info on Diesel electrics, this book starts in by=20 class with details of operating and maintaining the locomotives. Each=20 section is somewhat reminiscent of an EMD op manual, except there are no=20 illustrations. There are quite a number of troubleshooting sequences for=20 locating and fixing equipment problems (especially electrical ones). >From time to time there are some very practical zingers - for example, the=20 EP-3 directions tell how to frustrate the automatic operation of the middle=20 radiator shutters if they cool the engines too much in cold weather. In=20 another hint, there's a table of minimum speeds to maintain in each notch if= =20 the load ammeter is not working. =20 My favorite is a workaround for controlling from the lead F-3 unit even if=20 its batteries are low and the auxiliary generators are "inoperative" - it=20 uses a sneak circuit to borrow control power from a functioning trailing=20 unit. Instructions for the BF-4 tell how to do the same thing on Baldwin=20 freight sharks, but in addition it recommends closing one of the contactors=20 "using flag stick" - presumably to avoid an electrical burn from the=20 flashover. In a way, it's curious that PRR "rewrote" the vendors' operating manuals. =20 But I suspect: 1. As usual, the Pennsy was doing it their own way 2. Motive power forces were passing on info they had learned during the=20 break-in cycle on these locomotives. Some of this must be informal hints=20 from the manufacturers' service reps who installed the locomotives. 3. This book made a "testable" text for qualifying both new men and the old=20 heads who were coming out of steam locomotive cabs. This half-inch-thick book, with stained, heavy cardboard covers, is in good=20 condition inside, and will be auctioned via email (not eBay) as item 4106 on= =20 List 16 of the Jack Fravert collection, closing October 2. If you're=20 interested, please contact me=E2=80=A6=20 Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builde= r=20 plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and=20 other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_81.2160d3ff.2ab73d39_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Speaking of the first Pennsy r= oad diesels=E2=80=A6

Before we auction it off, I've been examining the following booklet, issued=20= at a time when enginemen were still being retrained to run diesels:

PRR No. 12A
The Pennsylvania Railroad
Diesel Electric Road Locomotives
Operating Instructions for Locomotive Enginemen, Firemen, and Helpers
June 2, 1949
Approved by H.T. Cover, Chief of Motive Power

The first thing noticeable is that locomotive classification is still the sa= me scheme it was in 1945. At that time, diesel road loco classes were:=

AP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Alco passenger locomotive, later AP20 or PA-PB-PA)
AF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Alco freight locomotive, later AF15 or FA1-FB1-FB1-FA1)=
BP-1 (a semipermanently coupled set of "Centipedes", later BP60)
BP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose passenger locomotive, later BP20)
BF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose freight locomotive, later BF15)
EP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp EMD passenger locomotive, later EP20 or E7A)
EF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp EMD freight locomotive, later EF15 or F3A-F3B-F3B-F3A)<= BR> FP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse passenger locomotive, later FP-20)
FF-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse freight locomotive, later FF-20)

I'm told that this was actually the second loco classification scheme used,=20= so this leads me to two questions:
1. When did this intermediate scheme take over? (obviously no later than 194= 5, judging from the 109J Classification and Description I have)
2. When was the more familiar scheme adopted? (obviously no earlier than Jun= e 1949).

After 127 pages of general info on Diesel electrics, this book starts in by=20= class with details of operating and maintaining the locomotives. Each=20= section is somewhat reminiscent of an EMD op manual, except there are no ill= ustrations. There are quite a number of troubleshooting sequence= s for locating and fixing equipment problems (especially electrical ones).
>From time to time there are some very practical zingers - for example, the E= P-3 directions tell how to frustrate the automatic operation of the middle r= adiator shutters if they cool the engines too much in cold weather. In= another hint, there's a table of minimum speeds to maintain in each notch i= f the load ammeter is not working.

My favorite is a workaround for controlling from the lead F-3 unit even if i= ts batteries are low and the auxiliary generators are "inoperative" - it use= s a sneak circuit to borrow control power from a functioning trailing unit.&= nbsp; Instructions for the BF-4 tell how to do the same thing on Baldwin fre= ight sharks, but in addition it recommends closing one of the contactors "us= ing flag stick" - presumably to avoid an electrical burn from the flashover.=

In a way, it's curious that PRR "rewrote" the vendors' operating manuals.&nb= sp; But I suspect:
1. As usual, the Pennsy was doing it their own way
2. Motive power forces were passing on info they had learned during the brea= k-in cycle on these locomotives. Some of this must be informal hints f= rom the manufacturers' service reps who installed the locomotives.
3. This book made a "testable" text for qualifying both new men and the old=20= heads who were coming out of steam locomotive cabs.

This half-inch-thick book, with stained, heavy cardboard covers, is in good=20= condition inside, and will be auctioned via email (not eBay) as item 4106 on= List 16 of the Jack Fravert collection, closing October 2. If you're=20= interested, please contact me=E2=80=A6

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builde= r plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and o= ther railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive

Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_81.2160d3ff.2ab73d39_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:11:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR No. 12-A Diesel Electric Road Locomotives From: Jerry Britton On 9/16/02 9:57 AM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > The first thing noticeable is that locomotive classification is still the same > scheme it was in 1945. At that time, diesel road loco classes were: > > AP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Alco passenger locomotive, later AP20 or PA-PB-PA) > AF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Alco freight locomotive, later AF15 or FA1-FB1-FB1-FA1) > BP-1 (a semipermanently coupled set of "Centipedes", later BP60) > BP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose passenger locomotive, later BP20) > BF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp Baldwin sharknose freight locomotive, later BF15) > EP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp EMD passenger locomotive, later EP20 or E7A) > EF-4 (4 unit 6000 hp EMD freight locomotive, later EF15 or F3A-F3B-F3B-F3A) > FP-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse passenger locomotive, later FP-20) > FF-3 (3 unit 6000 hp Fairbanks-Morse freight locomotive, later FF-20) > > I'm told that this was actually the second loco classification scheme used, so > this leads me to two questions: > 1. When did this intermediate scheme take over? (obviously no later than 1945, > judging from the 109J Classification and Description I have) > 2. When was the more familiar scheme adopted? (obviously no earlier than June > 1949). > I think the changeover was somewhat of a "grey area". Hirskimaki's "Black Gold Black Diamonds, Volume II" covers the changeover. This volume covers some point in the late 1940's to 1952. I "believe" it was between 1949 and 1952. I have amassed quite a bit of paperwork from 1954 and the more familiar classifications are definitely well in place. However, I was scanning one 1954 ETT (Pittsburgh, I believe) and it still had the old classifications in the section on Locomotive Restrictions. I was really surprised, but it is proof that not everything changes overnight! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:37:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Diesel class nomenclature [formerly- PRR No. 12-A Diesel Electric Road Rick, et al., Rick said> "I'm told that this was actually the second loco classification scheme used," Actually it wasn't the second it was the sixth. I have extracted a dissertation on PRR diesel class nomenclature from Chapter 6, Motive Power and Equipment (C), of my book on the E&P book (due out one of these years), see the following. ------------------- . The first system was based on the wheel arrangement on each truck of the unit and the design type. It was used on the early yard power acquired between June 1937 and 1942. . The second system was based on wheel arrangement on each truck of the unit, the horsepower in hundreds and a builder's initial. . The third system was based on wheel arrangement per two-unit set and was only applied to two class 4B units (EMC E-7 models) acquired in September 1945. . The fourth system used the AAR truck classification. . The fifth system used the AAR truck classification plus the horsepower in hundreds and a builder's initial. . The sixth and more commonly known system introduced in August 1947, was based on a builder's initial ("A" for American Locomotive Company, "B" for Baldwin Locomotive Works, "E" for Electro-Motive Division, General Motors Corporation, "F" for Fairbanks-Morse "G" for General Electric Company and "L" for Lima Locomotive Works) and a service initial ("F" for freight, "P" for passenger and "S" for switching service). The freight and passenger road locomotives used a third character, which indicated the number of individual units in the locomotive set. For example an EF2 had two 1500 hp EMD F units, a BF4 had four 1500 hp Baldwin shark units, etc. As can be seen, the early road diesel units were not considered individual locomotives, as we know them today. Locomotives were considered sets of several units, mostly A-B-A, some A-A, still fewer A-B-B-A, and only one single A unit, the 9666 an EMD F-7A, class EF1. This was a difficult classification system to work with, as it was soon discovered maintaining pure sets of units was not particularly efficient given that not all units of a set required maintenance at the same time and different trains required different horsepower ratings. The yard diesels had a third or fourth character, which identified the horsepower in hundreds. A class BS10 was a Baldwin switcher with 1000 hp engine. This yard diesel classification system was the pattern for the eventual system that was subsequently introduced for all units. . As early as October 1951, the seventh classification was introduced, with the road units being designated based on each individual unit's horsepower (in hundreds), not by the number of units in the set. The service initial "H" for units assigned to helper service in the various helper districts was added but lasted only until ca. 1959-1962. It should be noted that not all units classified under the previous system were changed overnight. . In 1966, in anticipation of the merger, a new service symbol, "RS," was introduced for the road switchers. The "RS" symbol was applied to the ALCo RS-2, RS-3, RS-11, RSD-4, RSD-7, RSD-12 and RSD-15 models; the BLW RS-15 and AS-616 models; the EMD GP-7, GP-9, SD-7 and SD-9 models; and the FM H-16-44, H-20-44 and H-24-66 models, formerly designated as "F." However, the 40 GP-9B units remained designated as road freight units (class EF17). Otherwise, the system remained the same as the seventh. The Chief of Freight Transportation (CFT) also had a nomenclature system, used ca. 1951-52, which used the horsepower of the locomotive set (in hundreds) rather than the number of units. Thus an EF3 was known an EF45, etc. All very interesting stuff but somewhat confusing. Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:37:08 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Diesel class nomenclature [formerly- PRR No. 12-A Diesel Rick, et al., Rick said> "I'm told that this was actually the second loco classification scheme used," Actually it wasn't the second it was the sixth. I have extracted a dissertation on PRR diesel class nomenclature from Chapter 6, Motive Power and Equipment (C), of my book on the E&P book (due out one of these years), see the following. ------------------- . The first system was based on the wheel arrangement on each truck of the unit and the design type. It was used on the early yard power acquired between June 1937 and 1942. . The second system was based on wheel arrangement on each truck of the unit, the horsepower in hundreds and a builder's initial. . The third system was based on wheel arrangement per two-unit set and was only applied to two class 4B units (EMC E-7 models) acquired in September 1945. . The fourth system used the AAR truck classification. . The fifth system used the AAR truck classification plus the horsepower in hundreds and a builder's initial. . The sixth and more commonly known system introduced in August 1947, was based on a builder's initial ("A" for American Locomotive Company, "B" for Baldwin Locomotive Works, "E" for Electro-Motive Division, General Motors Corporation, "F" for Fairbanks-Morse "G" for General Electric Company and "L" for Lima Locomotive Works) and a service initial ("F" for freight, "P" for passenger and "S" for switching service). The freight and passenger road locomotives used a third character, which indicated the number of individual units in the locomotive set. For example an EF2 had two 1500 hp EMD F units, a BF4 had four 1500 hp Baldwin shark units, etc. As can be seen, the early road diesel units were not considered individual locomotives, as we know them today. Locomotives were considered sets of several units, mostly A-B-A, some A-A, still fewer A-B-B-A, and only one single A unit, the 9666 an EMD F-7A, class EF1. This was a difficult classification system to work with, as it was soon discovered maintaining pure sets of units was not particularly efficient given that not all units of a set required maintenance at the same time and different trains required different horsepower ratings. The yard diesels had a third or fourth character, which identified the horsepower in hundreds. A class BS10 was a Baldwin switcher with 1000 hp engine. This yard diesel classification system was the pattern for the eventual system that was subsequently introduced for all units. . As early as October 1951, the seventh classification was introduced, with the road units being designated based on each individual unit's horsepower (in hundreds), not by the number of units in the set. The service initial "H" for units assigned to helper service in the various helper districts was added but lasted only until ca. 1959-1962. It should be noted that not all units classified under the previous system were changed overnight. . In 1966, in anticipation of the merger, a new service symbol, "RS," was introduced for the road switchers. The "RS" symbol was applied to the ALCo RS-2, RS-3, RS-11, RSD-4, RSD-7, RSD-12 and RSD-15 models; the BLW RS-15 and AS-616 models; the EMD GP-7, GP-9, SD-7 and SD-9 models; and the FM H-16-44, H-20-44 and H-24-66 models, formerly designated as "F." However, the 40 GP-9B units remained designated as road freight units (class EF17). Otherwise, the system remained the same as the seventh. The Chief of Freight Transportation (CFT) also had a nomenclature system, used ca. 1951-52, which used the horsepower of the locomotive set (in hundreds) rather than the number of units. Thus an EF3 was known an EF45, etc. All very interesting stuff but somewhat confusing. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:26:42 +0000 As of 9/16/02 we still don't have our Keystones in Chicago. Boy do I feel good about my mail delivery! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:36:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? From: Jerry Britton On 9/16/02 11:26 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > As of 9/16/02 we still don't have our Keystones in Chicago. Boy do I feel > good > about my mail delivery! > Hey, I got my Winter issue of The Keystone arrived today... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:47:46 -0500 I too live in the Chicago area and have not received my Keystone. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 10:27 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? As of 9/16/02 we still don't have our Keystones in Chicago. Boy do I feel good about my mail delivery! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:12:02 -0400 Keith- My apologies. It is nice to give credit where credit is due. At least permission was asked prior to posting. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Keith B Thompson Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 3:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bill Kachel's Catenary Paper Hello, It's so nice to open your email and read all the supportive comments regarding Mr. Kachel's paper. In hopes that this is the last of the off topic posts, the answer is yes - I have cleared sending the paper with Bill. However, I should amend my original post and state that the paper is for personal noncommercial use only. That said, if you are into modeling catenary, take a look at the paper, I found it helpful. Though I've not seen it, Bill's layout sounds fantastic. He is planning to have it on a layout tour at next year's PRRT&HS convention, a must see for us electric fans. Regards, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Railfan Guide Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:04:32 -0400 I will be in Pittsburgh the weekend of November 8-10 for the first annual Montour Railroad Convention. Can any listers help me with railfan information for the Pittsburgh area? Please include must-see area and dangerous areas to avoid. Also information on the Pittsburgh trolley/light rail system. And also please include surrounding area such as Conway Yard, Rochester Jcn, etc. Are there any good locations for video taping trains on the Ohio Connecting bridge? Thanks in advance! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:45:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Railfan Guide From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" There is a Montour RR convention????? Where? Who organized it? How did you find out about it? You can get a good view of the OC bridge from the hill east of it, but I don't remember the name of the exit off the Ohio River Blvd to get there. In West Park on the North Side is a pedestrian overpass over the exPRR Ft. Wayne main where you can get some good photos. You can get some good photos of CSX traffic from the Smithfield Street Bridge or Station Square. The light rail system has a stop just across the street. If you can get to Rook Yard in Carnegie there is often something going on. Conway Yard is hard to get to. Have to park across the street in various places and brave the traffic and critters on the west side of the road. North of Conway is Rochester. The Ft. Wayne goes around a curve where the Beaver River enters the Ohio. Good place for train watching at ground level. Haysville off the Ohio River Blvd, just south of Sewickley is a good spot. The position lights are still in place. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "William Bigler" >To: >Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Railfan Guide >Date: Mon, 16 Sep, 2002, 14:04 > > I will be in Pittsburgh the weekend of November 8-10 for the first annual > Montour Railroad Convention. Can any listers help me with railfan > information for the Pittsburgh area? Please include must-see area and > dangerous areas to avoid. Also information on the Pittsburgh trolley/light > rail system. And also please include surrounding area such as Conway Yard, > Rochester Jcn, etc. Are there any good locations for video taping trains on > the Ohio Connecting bridge? > > Thanks in advance! > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh Railfan Guide Don, Bill, Always play it safe. NS Police will approach you if you are anywhere on their property. Conway is pretty much off limits. Yes you can probably stand on the highway but not much room. I also heard this past weekend that NS is removing several signal bridges just east of Conway. Seems they are ridding the old PRR styles for their own. Exactly which are gone at this point I do not know. Bill, if you ride the Pittsburgh T System, be sure to ride it to Dormont Jct. That is where AB Charles Hobby Shop is. One block up the hill from the Dormont station stop. Station Square as mentioned is a nice site seeing/photo area. The Incline is there to ride also. Hard Rock Cafe etc to eat. Have fun and hope for sun.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:33:58 -0400 Mine arrived Saturday. The mule train is slowly making its way west. Frank Brua in Michigan -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? >As of 9/16/02 we still don't have our Keystones in Chicago. Boy do I feel good >about my mail delivery! > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] John Prophet Lists, Just stumbled on this website pertaining to John Prophet and his recordings. Check it out if you have a few moments to spare and adjust your speakers accordingly before entering......Gary http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/sounds/Welcome.html Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] John Prophet Lists, Just stumbled on this website pertaining to John Prophet and his recordings. Check it out if you have a few moments to spare and adjust your speakers accordingly before entering......Gary http://www.buffalohistoryworks.com/sounds/Welcome.html Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:04:47 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Wreck Derricks was previously Fall Keystone Bob, et al., As I recall most but not all of the wreck derricks were steam powered. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:20:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Wreck Derricks was previously Fall Keystone In a message dated 9/16/02 9:15:18 PM Central Daylight Time, abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: << As I recall most but not all of the wreck derricks were steam powered. >> Al: Yes, but my question was whether the boiler was oil or coal-fired. In one of the Pennsy books, the statement is made that all but one of the derricks was oil-fired. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 01:49:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals --part1_8b.1dee9c9f.2ab81c6c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob and Group; I've been watching this thread on modeling PRR signals. I was originally inspired to try my hand at 'kitbashing' the Oregon heads after seeing what Al Buchan did a few years ago. I too found their heads to be the best representation of a PRR head, but like Al, I did not like thier thickness. I file away the rear of the head (the circle of plastic designed to enclose the diodes). This leaves a flat head with the shades. The diodes are then mounted to the circuit board provided in the kit. I paint the board flat black, only leaving the LED's unpainted. This assembly is then carefully glued to the head. While the resulting assembled head is still thicker than the prototype, it displays some of the 'character' of the rear of prototype head and is much less offensive. Since my layout requires the use of just about every aspect, I also have modified some heads to include a 'restricting' aspect. A little careful effort can go a long way to make this already good heads great! I also use the Bachmann bridge with a few modifications, such as adding a real wood decking, slightly weathered. With the addition of some other minor details and painting, the resulting structure is very believable. By the way, the heads that come with the Bachmann bridge appear to be the same as the heads in the Bachmann signal bridge kit. No, they are not 'operating' yet! I enjoy the modeling part, but am not proficient at the electronics part. That's next, with the assistance of someone who is better educated in this area! Mark --part1_8b.1dee9c9f.2ab81c6c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob and Group;

I've been watching this thread on modeling PRR signals. I was originally inspired to try my hand at 'kitbashing' the Oregon heads after seeing what Al Buchan did a few years ago. I too found their heads to be the best representation of a PRR head, but like Al, I did not like thier thickness.

I file away the rear of the head (the circle of plastic designed to enclose the diodes). This leaves a flat head with the shades. The diodes are then mounted to the circuit board provided in the kit. I paint the board flat black, only leaving the LED's unpainted. This assembly is then carefully glued to the head. While the resulting assembled head is still thicker than the prototype, it displays some of the 'character' of the rear of prototype head and is much less offensive.

Since my layout requires the use of just about every aspect, I also have modified some heads to include a 'restricting' aspect. A little careful effort can go a long way to make this already good heads great!

I also use the Bachmann bridge with a few modifications, such as adding a real wood decking, slightly weathered. With the addition of some other minor details and painting, the resulting structure is very believable. By the way, the heads that come with the Bachmann bridge appear to be the same as the heads in the Bachmann signal bridge kit.

No, they are not 'operating' yet! I enjoy the modeling part, but am not proficient at the electronics part. That's next, with the assistance of someone who is better educated in this area!

Mark --part1_8b.1dee9c9f.2ab81c6c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:42:28 +0000 I'm still waiting here in the south suburbs but then I have a mail carrier who put a letter with our street number but not our name, street, town or zip code in our mail box four times in spite of our efforts. When confronted he said, "I got the number right didn't I?" and stuck it back in our mailbox a fifth time. We finally had to take it to a different community to get it on it's way. > At least one person (me) received his Kaystone in the mail, yesterday. > > -----Original Message----- > From: parkvarieties [mailto:parkvarieties@provide.net] > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 5:34 PM > To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? > > > Mine arrived Saturday. The mule train is slowly making its way west. > Frank Brua in Michigan > -----Original Message----- > From: ndbprr@att.net > To: PRR-Talk > Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:31 AM > Subject: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? > > > >As of 9/16/02 we still don't have our Keystones in Chicago. Boy do I feel > good > >about my mail delivery! > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 08:37:25 -0500 At least one person (me) received his Kaystone in the mail, yesterday. -----Original Message----- From: parkvarieties [mailto:parkvarieties@provide.net] Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 5:34 PM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? Mine arrived Saturday. The mule train is slowly making its way west. Frank Brua in Michigan -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net To: PRR-Talk Date: Monday, September 16, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: [PRR] Has anybody seen my Keystone? >As of 9/16/02 we still don't have our Keystones in Chicago. Boy do I feel good >about my mail delivery! > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven & Flo" Subject: [PRR] Re: Signals Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 19:02:29 +0200 Hi guys, John Bobsn writes (quote) "Evan suggests use of surface-mount LEDs for signals; this is along the lines I have been thinking too, but I haven't tried anything yet. Commercially available SM LEDs seem to mostly be square in shape, which might be a problem; the smallest size I have seen is .079" on a side, which is something like six inches in HO. Now, how to mount them? " (unquote) I have fiddled around making signals in N scale using surface mounted LEDs. I have not tried to model PRR signals, but have had success making a generic type as detailed in the July 1990 issue of Model Railroader. I use sub miniature LED's obtained from my (not so) local electronics store, approx. size 2mm square. With the 2 LED's placed next to each other, I solder a thin enameled wire to the + pole of the red and the - pole of the green. The other contacts of the LED's are soldered directly to the mast. A notch is filed in the rear of the mast just below the lower LED, and the enameled wire is threaded through the mast. For the target I use 0.03 styrene sheet punched in a paper punch, with a hole, large enough to allow the 2 LED's to poke through, drilled through the centre. The target is glued to the mast with CA gel. The hood is made from styrene tube reamed out for a thinner wall, and glued to the target face. With a ladder fitted, and painted black it looks great. Mandatory PRR content - I am modeling the PRR in southern Pennsylvania, loosely based on the Reid brothers beautiful Cumberland Valley layout. Regards Steve Smith I had been thinking that the target itself would be a PC board. Thinnest common PC boards are 1/16", or about 5-6" HO scale. Some sort of cover might be needed over the PC traces (presumably, on the front of the target) to hide the etched traces. The traces might be arranged to put appropriate LEDs in a series connection (e.g., the three LEDs that form the "Stop" indication might all be in series on a position light signal). Just some ideas to bounce around. Do the commercially available signals use any of these techniques? John Bobsn ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:51:44 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] FYI Panhandle lecture Hi, everyone, For those in the Chicago area, I just found out about a lecture to be given this Wednesday, Sept. 18th, at 7:30 pm entitled "X Marks the Spot: The Panhandle RR and the Development of Washington Heights." The location is 10621 S. Seeley, Chicago, at the Driscoll House, where the Ridge Historical Society meets. The flier suggests that seating is limited so RSVP to 773-881- 1675. A $6 donation is suggested. For background, Washington Heights is the local neighorhood name for the south side Chicago area more broadly known as Beverly, between about 91st and 111th Sts. The Panhandle crossed the Rock Island suburban and main line tracks in this area but have been gone for a number of years. I don't know how "railroady" this talk will be but I may go to find out. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:59:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] F Units on the Pennsy From: Jerry Britton Over the past few years I've had discussions with many manufacturers about producing N scale F units. Glad IM is finally stepping up to the plate. I am sure they will be rewarded for their efforts. I've been doing some research and found that while the PRR didn't have any FT's, F2's, or F9's, and only a minor stake in F7's (4%), I was quite pleased when I did the math and found the PRR had an 8% share of the F3's and a 15% share of the FP7's!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:27:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Bobby Bryzinski Subject: [PRR] S1 6-4-4-6 whistle and bell Hi, Does anyone know if the S1 6-4-4-6 was equipped with a whistle and bell? In photos all that I've seen is the air horn on the front. Any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/16/02 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:42:03 -0400 This will answer Dayna Warner's painting question. Although it is not strictly PRR-Talk stuff, I just couldn't help myself and it may be valuable to others. Hi Dayna: The simple answer is, if the paint is intact you can use any kind of paint to refinish it. To be more specific, If the paint is not intact, you must remove any loose paint and corrosion and then prime the whole plate. The bigger issue is cleaning the surface to remove oily soils and loose particulates. My suggestion for a refinishing procedure is: 1. Wash the plate with an aqueous solution of household alkaline cleaner (Spic and Span) or an household detergent (Dishwashing detergent) rinse thoroughly with clear water and dry. 2. After it is completely dry, apply a coat of white interior paint as a primer. 3. After the primer is dry you can paint the scene using artist colors either oil based or acrylic (I prefer oils because they dry slower and can be blended longer), model railroad paints or whatever. 4. After the scene is dry apply a clear overcoat varnish to protect your art work. Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint Consultant ----- Original Message ----- From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 1:10 AM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/16/02 PRR-Talk Digest - Monday, September 16, 2002 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: painting question From: "trainstuffllc" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:36:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0051_01C25CA3.D1AB8A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I know this is not a scale or prototype related question. I was at an = Antique fair yesterday where I happened to purchase a beautifully = detailed cast iron fire plate. Anyone have any suggestions on what type = of paint I can use to paint it? It has a steam locomotive coming down a = mountain and through some trees. I don't need to worry about the paint = being fireproof. I just want to paint the scene rather than leaving it = all black. I want to put it into a non working fireplace and put a light = on it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Dayna Warner CEO Trainstuff LLC www.trainstuffllc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:28:54 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Wreck Derrick Power No one has any facts as of this time (yet). However, an estimate at time of merger from a well traveled former PRR Master Mechanic and Regional Mechanical officer was o/a merger time 40% coal, 40% oil, 20% diesel. Given that there were 53 wreck train in 1963 that would equate to about 21 coal, 21 oil and 8 diesel, or thereabouts. But this is an estimate. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:32:40 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] F Units on the Pennsy Jerry, et al: Sorry for barging in, as I normally just "lurk", but your quote of, "a 15% share of the FP7's!!!" left me wondering. With that %age of prototypical use, it should be thought that more manufacturers would have worked on this model. At the same time, it seems that the manufacturers seem to ignore PRR motive power. Am I wrong? I subscribe to MR, and hit the best ads on the web, but it seems to me that plain 'off-the-shelf' PRR goods are sadly lacking, as agianst the SF, NYC, and even the MEC! And this continues into the 'off-the-shelf' freight and passenger cars. What gives? Zak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 1:59 PM Subject: [PRR] F Units on the Pennsy > Over the past few years I've had discussions with many manufacturers about > producing N scale F units. Glad IM is finally stepping up to the plate. I am > sure they will be rewarded for their efforts. > > I've been doing some research and found that while the PRR didn't have any > FT's, F2's, or F9's, and only a minor stake in F7's (4%), I was quite > pleased when I did the math and found the PRR had an 8% share of the F3's > and a 15% share of the FP7's!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 06:16:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] F Units on the Pennsy From: Jerry Britton On 9/17/02 9:32 PM, "Zak" wrote: > Sorry for barging in, as I normally just "lurk", but your quote of, "a 15% > share of the FP7's!!!" left me wondering. > > With that %age of prototypical use, it should be thought that more > manufacturers would have worked on this model. At the same time, it seems > that the manufacturers seem to ignore PRR motive power. > > Am I wrong? I subscribe to MR, and hit the best ads on the web, but it > seems to me that plain 'off-the-shelf' PRR goods are sadly lacking, as > agianst the SF, NYC, and even the MEC! > > And this continues into the 'off-the-shelf' freight and passenger cars. > > What gives? > Though the PRR had a 15% share of all the FP7's made, there were only a couple hundred made, vs. several thousand F7's. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] F Units on the Pennsy Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:08:55 -0700 Simple...PRR-painted equipment isn't "pretty" enough to sell to the R-T-R collector crowd. And they are becoming a major factor in this hobby (scary thought!) although if the economy continues to tank, that just might change... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:32:40 -0400 Zak wrote: > At the > same time, it seems > that the manufacturers seem to ignore PRR motive power. > > Am I wrong? I subscribe to MR, and hit the best ads on > the web, but it > seems to me that plain 'off-the-shelf' PRR goods are > sadly lacking, as > agianst the SF, NYC, and even the MEC! > > And this continues into the 'off-the-shelf' freight and > passenger cars. > > What gives? > > Zak ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Tichy Wreck Crane was Wreck Derrick Power Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:12:04 -0400 Listers(especially Al Buchan), I have started building a Tichy wreck crane that I bought years ago. I have two questions. 1)Any building hints or pitfalls to avoid on the model? 2)Any thing special that has to be done to Pennsify it? Assume 1955 around Harrisburg as my modeling era/location. Thanks in advance!! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:01:33 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Thoughts on H6 Hello, everyone, Some thoughts and questions about the H6 engine. Great article in the latest KEYSTONE by Dick Adams! Now look at the top photo on p.41 and compare how the smokebox front looks with all the other photos. It appears that the smokebox front had a rounded "lip" so that the bolts attaching it to the smokebox were attached from the side rather than the front. Anyone got more info on this? Second, note the great photo on the bottom of p.41. Where are the front-end class lights (or flags)? I've seen a similar lack in many of the great Charles Chaney photos from the WW I era in other books, esp. the Pennsy Power series. Again, is there an explanation? Finally some thoughts on modeling the H6 in HO. There are a number of nice brass engines out there but if one wanted a fleet, is there a non-brass substitute? I can think of one way. I understand that Bowser is going to be doing a B6 0-6-0. The two hardest things to get right in a steam engine are the boiler and the drivers. The B6 boiler is VERY similar to an H6, except that the sand dome is further back from the stack. Second, the B6 and the H6 both rode on 56" drivers. Seems like this might be a good place to start - are there other options you know of? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:12:04 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Top lights on cabin cars Hi, all, In my deepening fascination (or is it obsession?) with the PRR c.1920, I've noticed that all cabin cars (including the N5) had what the rr called "top lights." These were 2-lens marker lights semi-permanently mounted, centered, on the roofs of cabin cars. The normal running aspects were red to the rear and amber to the front but this could be changed by rotating a set of internal colored lenses to show amber-amber. This was done by the crew from inside the cupola. Anyway, these were used in conjunction with the familiar rear-end class lights/flags. They were gone by 1925. I've seen at least one photo that shows an N5 with a nice round metal plate on its roof covering the hole where the top light once resided. And here's my question - what was the purpose of these lights, esp. if class lights/flags were in use? One guess (but it's only a guess) is that in the pre-airbrake days, if a train came apart on the road (esp. at night) there would be no brake application to indicate a problem. Could the top light have been a way for the head-end crew to determine if they still had an intact train? I note that many other rr's also used these "top lights" and they all seem to have gone out of use about the time when all cars were finally equipped with airbrakes, around WW I. Your thoughts? George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:08:44 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Thoughts on H6 George, et al., During the recent BoD meeting Dick Adams advised Chuck that two of the class H6 pictures have the incorrect captions. That will be corrected in the winter edition. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:14:26 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Top lights on cabin cars --- gpierson@trnty.edu wrote: > Hi, all, > > In my deepening fascination (or is it obsession?) with the PRR > c.1920, I've > noticed that all cabin cars (including the N5) had what the rr > called "top > lights." [...] Perhaps (a sure indicator of Evil Speculation) the third lamp high up allowed a following train to determine at night that that thing up ahead was a freight rather than a passenger train? That, combined with the then-current rules about altering the color of the other markers when off the main track, turned out against the current of traffic, etc, may have given valuable clues as to whether it (the train up ahead) was on my track or some other track. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:53:08 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tichy Wreck Crane was Wreck Derrick Power Chris asks: >I have started building a Tichy wreck crane that I bought years ago. I have >two questions. > >1)Any building hints or pitfalls to avoid on the model? This may be the best engineered styrene kit EVER. Take your time, trim parts carefully, enjoy the kit and it will be an absolutely gorgeous model. >2)Any thing special that has to be done to Pennsify it? Assume 1955 around >Harrisburg as my modeling era/location. As built it is fairly close. Items of super detail interest that are missing are curtains on the operator's compartment, boom lights, rear grabs instead of a ladder and boom and other tie-down details. See http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr497013alb.jpg for a great rear shot of #497013. I am contemplating building a second Tichy Derrick and cutting the roof hatch open to the coal bin, as in the photo above... BTW, for those who did not know, the B&O museum has en ex Washington terminal, ex PRR 120 ton derrick on display! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Name Trains... Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:42:31 -0400 The folks at Innvista (www.invista.com) post a listing of 77 name trains for the PRR and it is by no means complete. I found three names on Jerry Britton's 24 Hours at Harrisburg without even trying. So my question is, has anyone compiled a complete roster of name trains for the Pennsy? is it available on the web? Thanks. --------------------------------------- Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:31:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Name Trains... --part1_9f.2d400c83.2aba74fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pennsy named a lot of its trains. In some cases, the same name was applied to vastly different trains operating in separate districts. Also, certain trains underwent name changes on a frequent basis, especially in the later years from the late 1940's through the early 60's. I would imagine any attempt to compile a 'comprehensive' list would be a monumental job unless one limited the list to a specific "snapshot" time period. CBaker --part1_9f.2d400c83.2aba74fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Pennsy named a lot of its trains. In some cases, the same name was applied to vastly different trains operating in separate districts. Also, certain trains underwent name changes on a frequent basis, especially in the later years from the late 1940's through the early 60's. I would imagine any attempt to compile a 'comprehensive' list would be a monumental job unless one limited the list to a specific "snapshot" time period.

CBaker --part1_9f.2d400c83.2aba74fa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:40:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Minor Name Trains... I remember the morning and afternoon "Steelers" between Cleveland and Pittsburgh, via Alliance - before most people were aware of a football team by that name - what I don't remember is whether the Westbounds carried a different name...... Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 22:03:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Minor Name Trains... --part1_14f.1449b7da.2aba8a61_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to my April 1950 Official Railway Guide, the PRR operated trains 360 and 361 between Pittsburgh and Cleveland via Salem (and Alliance). Both the eastbound and the westbound trains were named The Steeler. C Baker --part1_14f.1449b7da.2aba8a61_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to my April 1950 Official Railway Guide, the PRR operated trains 360 and 361 between Pittsburgh and Cleveland via Salem (and Alliance). Both the eastbound and the westbound trains were named The Steeler.

C Baker --part1_14f.1449b7da.2aba8a61_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] A new F-7 part Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:50:46 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_039B_01C25F6E.354E4B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Taking another look through the October Model Railroader revealed that = the good folks at Details West have given the Pennsy HO modeler another = part. In their ad they announce the "FT-315 Fuel Tank Extension Kit for = SP, WP & Other Roads". We fit in where it says "Other Roads". This is = the part that lets us use Highliners F units, both A and B, to model the = last F-7 order, 9872 - 9879 A's and 9872 - 9878 (even) B's. This is the = 1952 order which had not only the "fat" fuel tanks but also vertical = side louvers and the vertical Farr grills like the FP-7's. An interesting photo which some of you may have tucked away because it = is black and white is in "The 50 Best of PRR", Book One, on page 40. = This photo, dated August 1953, is captioned to be at Dauphin, Pa., = putting it on the Susquehanna Division. It shows FP-7 9832 leading two = other units on a Buffalo - Harrisburg passenger train. It appears to be = a regularly scheduled train, not an excursion, since there appear to be = several headend cars. (Jerry, are you listening?) The passenger train = is passing F-7 9872 with its fat tank clearly visible. Okay, now we can model every PRR F-3 and F-7 phase. Pleeeeeeease = somebody make a state of the art HO FP-7!!!!!! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_039B_01C25F6E.354E4B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Taking another look through the October = Model=20 Railroader revealed that the good folks at Details West have given the = Pennsy HO=20 modeler another part. In their ad they announce the "FT-315 Fuel = Tank=20 Extension Kit for SP, WP & Other Roads". We fit in where = it=20 says "Other Roads". This is the part that lets us use = Highliners=20 F units, both A and B, to model the last F-7 order, 9872 - 9879 A's and = 9872 -=20 9878 (even) B's. This is the 1952 order which had not only the "fat" = fuel tanks=20 but also vertical side louvers and the vertical Farr grills like = the=20 FP-7's.

An interesting photo which some of you = may have=20 tucked away because it is black and white is in "The 50 Best of PRR", = Book One,=20 on page 40. This photo, dated August 1953, is captioned to be at = Dauphin,=20 Pa., putting it on the Susquehanna Division. It shows FP-7 9832 = leading two=20 other units on a Buffalo - Harrisburg passenger train. It appears = to be a=20 regularly scheduled train, not an excursion, since there appear to = be=20 several headend cars. (Jerry, are you listening?) The = passenger=20 train is passing F-7 9872 with its fat tank clearly = visible.

Okay, now we can model every PRR F-3 = and F-7=20 phase. Pleeeeeeease somebody make a state of the art HO=20 FP-7!!!!!!

Steve Hoxie

Pensacola FL

------=_NextPart_000_039B_01C25F6E.354E4B40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:03:52 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: Re: [PRR] Tichy Wreck Crane was Wreck Derrick Power > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:53:08 -0500 > > Chris asks: > >>I have started building a Tichy wreck crane that I bought years ago. I have >>two questions. >> >>1)Any building hints or pitfalls to avoid on the model? >> > > This may be the best engineered styrene kit EVER. Take your time, trim > parts carefully, enjoy the kit and it will be an absolutely gorgeous model. I'll second Bruce's assessment for this kit. Though very detailed I found the kit easy to assemble into a great looking model. ... > I am contemplating building a second Tichy Derrick and cutting the roof > hatch open to the coal bin, as in the photo above... > > BTW, for those who did not know, the B&O museum has en ex Washington > terminal, ex PRR 120 ton derrick on display! I am also contemplating building another, though this time I have to scratch build it in S scale. I have sold my Tichy model so short of driving down to the B&O museum with a tape measure, are there drawings/plans available? (or anyone have a tichy kit that they can loan to me? :) Regards, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:51:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Don't Sell! From: Jerry Britton Walthers is listing among their new arrivals an A/B set of F7's in Z scale from Marklin... http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/441-88605 Get this: The product description reads "Broadway Limited", the paint scheme is Tuscan Red in five stripe. Hmmm. Think these are going to sell well? Can't wait till Marklin whines about product not selling! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:04:17 -0500 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] More on top lights Hi, all, Reading some of your responses got me going back to some documents, the results of which might be helpful. I should have stated from the git-go that this whole discussion is basically about Lines East equipment. Lines West, from what I can tell, had lights mounted in the front and rear of the repsective cupola walls in large permanent boxes. Moreover, the markers were rectangular affairs that resided in the rear side walls of cabin cars and were pushed out from their niches when in use. First is a copy of the PRR book of rules for the transportation department, 1910. On p.18 (and other places) it states that the rear of trains on main tracks shall have yellow flags by day and markers showing yellow to the front and sides and red to the rear by night. Also the top light will show yellow to the front and red to the rear. Actually, the book has "green" printed where I have just noted "yellow." (BTW, since I wrote "amber" in my earlier message, is there a difference between "yellow" and "amber"?) The original owner of the book has crossed out all references to green and written in yellow in its place. From past reading, I seem to recall that this rule book remained in effect until c.1925. Next I was given a copy of the engineering dept. drawing for a top light by a PRRT&HS officer. Drawn in c.1916, it clearly indicates that three of the four colored lenses inside the top light were to be yellow and the fourth red. Could this 1916 date be about the time that the "green" was replaced by "yellow"? Moreover, the drawing has a note from April of 1925 indicating that it is obsolete "account no longer using deck lamp". Interestingly, the drawing is labled "cupola lamp" while the rule book cited above specifically calls them "top lights." I might also add, in the trivia department, that while most photos of cabin cars are taken from ground level and therefore the top light is often partially obscurred, there appear to have been more than one style of lamp. Many had a protruding housing for the two exterior lenses (the above-mentioned drawing is one such) while others appear to have had the outer lenses mounted more-or-less flush with the lamp housing, like the later one-lens markers. I also have seen a photo of the cupola roof of an N5 after the top lights were removed. There is a nice round plate covering the former top light access hole. A suggestion was made that the top light may have helped distinguish a freight from a passenger train at night. To play devil's advocate, I wonder what difference this could make to a following train. The main object of rear-end lights, as I understand them, was to protect the rear of the train from following trains. I presume that properly controlled following trains either kept their proper distance or did not, regardless of the nature of train ahead. IOW, would a front-end crew (as the joined the birds) be saying to each other, "if I'd only seen the top light, I would have applied the brakes in time?" Just some thoughts! George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:29:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Don't In a message dated 9/19/02 8:58:05 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Think these are going to sell well? >> Most likely. Many, many, many people oohed and aahed over their HO Sante Fe passenger train with caricature shorty cars. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:23:30 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Jerry, Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of model railroaders consider anyone who knows that the PRR never had any tuscan 5 stripe F7s, a "rivet counter" :-( BTW I'm proud to be called a rivet counter by most model RRs. BTW2 I never count rivets. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/19/02 8:58:05 AM Central Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << Think these are going to sell well? >> > > Most likely. Many, many, many people oohed and aahed over their HO Sante Fe > passenger train with caricature shorty cars. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 08:29:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Thoughts on H6 George, list, Every Christmas, I put the H6sb on my wish list for the survey of desired products that Jerry does on the list in December.... I only needed/wanted one H6sb. H6sb 2846 and D16sb made lasting impressions on me when I first visited them as a second grader in 1977. I found a Lambert H6sb for around $300 from Caboose Hobbies, and I'm redetailing it to match the 2846 (she has extra steam pipes from her time as a snow melter; I may or may not add them). I plan to use the engine for freight service on my eventual New York and Long Branch; PRR consolidations and CNJ camelbacks worked together out of Red Bank in the 1940s. Prior to my being fully employed, I considered a bunch of options. I thought about a Mantua PRR Atlantic Boiler on an MDC old-timer 2-8-0 chassis, but a closer look at the plans for the E3sd (MR circa 1940)and H6sb (January 1974 MR for the H6sb)revealed enough differences in the boiler to make it a non-starter (for me, anyway). The MDC chassis has 50" drivers, which are just too small (again, to me) to represent the 56" drivers of the H6sb. I bought some 56" drivers from International Hobbies (the drivers are made in England); you'll need to add counterweights and accept the odd/even spoke issue (American wheels usually have an odd number of spokes and European wheels usually have an even number of spokes). I was considering shortening a Bowser H9s chassis, but that's a bit too long for my tastes. The January 1974 MR has an article on brass kitbashing; author John Sauers (he now models in O scale and seems to do quite well in terms of gathering awards at the PRR annual convention) used two brass B6sb engines to kitbash an H6sb and he used the lefovers to create (with some 50" drivers) an A5s. Once Bowser's B6sb arrives (sign me up for two, please; one for me and one for my Grandfather), you could execute the same kitbash; depending on the cost of the kit, it could come to more than what a Sunset or Lambert H6sb is worth. I have only seen pictures of the beautiful Railworks H6sb (and D16sb)....someday if finances permit...grin. Grate area on the B6sb was 61 square feet, while it was 49 square feet on the H6a/H6sa/H6b/H6sb. My copy of the Keystone has not made it's way to Aviano...yet (I have mine sent to my stateside address and then it goes here), so I can't comment on the photos. Modelers of the PRR, B&O (E-24 Consols and L-1 O-8-0s), LIRR, PRSL, and Interstate can use this engine; there were about 600 H6b (most converted to H6sb), 1200 H6a, 200 E-24, and 200 of the narrow-fireboxed H6 predecessor. How about it, manufacturers? Doug --- gpierson@trnty.edu wrote, in part: > Finally some thoughts on modeling the H6 in HO. > There are a number of nice brass engines out there but if one wanted a fleet, is there a non-brass > substitute? I can think of one way. I understand > that Bowser is going to be doing a B6 0-6-0. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Keystone Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:40:03 +0000 My Keystone finally arrived in the wilds of the south suburbs of Chicago ( 17 miles from the loop) on Wednesday. I guess I should thank the local USPS for getting it here in the same year it was sent. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:42:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Thoughts on H6 From: Jerry Britton On 9/19/02 11:29 AM, Doug Kisala (dougkisala@yahoo.com) wrote: > Every Christmas, I put the H6sb on my wish list for > the survey of desired products that Jerry does on the > list in December.... > Actually, I do the poll in mid-November, so start thinking...even though 2002 really has been a "good year" for announcements. > Modelers of the PRR, B&O (E-24 Consols and L-1 > O-8-0s), LIRR, PRSL, and Interstate can use this > engine; there were about 600 H6b (most converted to > H6sb), 1200 H6a, 200 E-24, and 200 of the > narrow-fireboxed H6 predecessor. How about it, > manufacturers? > The math still doesn't warrant anything other than brass, except perhaps Broadway Limited Imports. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:05:25 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Don't Eh, Jerry, wasn't it you that kinda inferred a couple of days ago that a PRR FP7 wasn't feasible, as although the PRR had 15% of 'em, only a few hundred were ever built? Who knows what would have happened had the PRR avoided that (pugh...get the taste out of my mouth) merger with the N%C! Zak ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Don't Sell! > In a message dated 9/19/02 8:58:05 AM Central Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << Think these are going to sell well? >> > > Most likely. Many, many, many people oohed and aahed over their HO Sante Fe > passenger train with caricature shorty cars. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:05:20 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] More on top lights --- gpierson@trnty.edu wrote: + I should have stated from the git-go that + this whole discussion is basically about Lines East equipment. + On p.18 (and other places) it states that the rear of trains + on main Tracks shall have yellow flags by day and markers showing + yellow to the front and sides and red to the rear by night. + Actually, the book has "green" printed where I have just + noted "yellow." There was some discussion of the change from green to yellow on this list a few years ago. Someone turned up a Phila. Div. general order giving the date of the change (which I forget) and wondered if that was the effective date on all divisions, or if it was phased in at different times on different divisions. Best I can recall the date was sometime during WW1 or just before it. + A suggestion was made that the top light may have helped + distinguish a freight from a passenger train at night. To play + devil's advocate, I wonder what difference this could make to a + following train. I suppose my having grown up near the four-track main line colored my thinking. Note that in general two of the four were passenger tracks, two freight. Now, suppose Thomas T. Engineer, operating a passenger train on the passenger track in the assigned direction, comes around a curve and sees some colored lights perhaps a quarter mile ahead. Since this is multi-track territory, I would think his first question would be "Is that train on my track, or on one of the others?" It's night, it's pitch black, all he sees is that group of lights up there. Are they dead ahead, or 16 feet off to one side or the other? If the pattern of lights indicates a freight train, and there's no red/green (or red/yellow) combination to indicate the train is not on its normal track, Thomas can breathe easy; it's on the freight track, he isn't. If they indicate a passenger train and there's no indication that it's on a non-standard track, Thomas needs to do something right quickly. That's the difference. + IOW, would a front-end crew (as the joined the birds) be + saying to + each other, "if I'd only seen the top light, I would have applied + the brakes + in time?" Just some thoughts! In the scene I've tried to suggest, more like "If I'd only seen the top light, I wouldn't have precipitated this mess." (I'm taking the phrase "join the birds" to refer to jumping off of a moving train to avoid being on it when it collides with something.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:19:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products From: Jerry Britton On 9/19/02 1:05 PM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > Eh, Jerry, wasn't it you that kinda inferred a couple of days ago that a PRR > FP7 wasn't feasible, as although the PRR had 15% of 'em, only a few hundred > were ever built? Yeah, so what's the relevance...what's your point? In my previous post I said the PRR owned 15% of the FP7's ever built. But since only a few hundred were built, it wouldn't justify creation of the model (in N scale). The post you are responding to was about F7's (not FP7's) in Tuscan Red Five-Stripe passenger paint. This wasn't prototype! (The four-foot-longer FP7 was in Tuscan Red Five-Stripe though.) > > Who knows what would have happened had the PRR avoided that (pugh...get the > taste out of my mouth) merger with the N%C! > > Zak ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:46:45 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Don't Mild change in direction. Video (Cable) of Grand Central Terminal (wait). Voice over of: 'no matter where they were going, the left from GCT' (Strike 1.... 'spose i was headed for DC?) Accompanying vide included a shot of a tailsign on a classic open air platform obs Air Line Special (or close to that....) (Strike 2: tail sign was KEYSTONE SHAPED!!!) Anyone have a handy list of name trains? (I know: can't expect the media to get it right....) But i can giggle... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:08:50 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products I believe the AIRLINE SPECIAL was run by the PRR in the 30s as part of a transcontinental service. It ran as an advance section o f the AMERICAN. It took passengers overnight from New York to Dayton Ohio where they had an "across the platform" transfer to a Ford Tri-Motor which flew them during daylight hours (and weather permitting) to an airfield somewhere in Oklahoma. There they again took a train (SP?) overnight to somewhere in Nevada. The next day the flew into Los Angeles. And no one checked their luggage for bombs, or cared if they packed there own bags, and no one ever hijacked an American train. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== davep wrote: > Mild change in direction. > Video (Cable) of Grand Central Terminal (wait). > Voice over of: > 'no matter where they were going, the left from GCT' > (Strike 1.... 'spose i was headed for DC?) > Accompanying vide included a shot of a tailsign on > a classic open air platform obs > Air Line Special > (or close to that....) > (Strike 2: tail sign was KEYSTONE SHAPED!!!) > Anyone have a handy list of name trains? > > (I know: can't expect the media to get it right....) > But i can giggle... > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:15:18 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Andrew S. Miller wrote: > I believe the AIRLINE SPECIAL was run by the PRR in the 30s as part of a > transcontinental service. It ran as an advance section o f the AMERICAN. > It took passengers overnight from New York to Dayton Ohio where they had an > "across the platform" transfer to a Ford Tri-Motor which flew them during > daylight hours (and weather permitting) to an airfield somewhere in > Oklahoma. There they again took a train (SP?) overnight to somewhere in > Nevada. The next day the flew into Los Angeles. I was familiar with that operation, tho had no way to check the name... > And no one checked their luggage for bombs, The world progresses. > or cared if they packed there own bags, I believe the airlines/airports have dropped that question. > and no one ever hijacked an American train. The names Jesse James and Butch Cassidy and James(?) Longebaugh come to mind, for a short list... (I won't mention Capt Pierre Cardona... 8)>>) > ================================================== > davep wrote: > > >>Mild change in direction. >>Video (Cable) of Grand Central Terminal (wait). >>Voice over of: >> 'no matter where they were going, the left from GCT' >>(Strike 1.... 'spose i was headed for DC?) >> Accompanying vide included a shot of a tailsign on >> a classic open air platform obs >> Air Line Special >> (or close to that....) >>(Strike 2: tail sign was KEYSTONE SHAPED!!!) >> Anyone have a handy list of name trains? >> >>(I know: can't expect the media to get it right....) >> But i can giggle... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:25:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their From: Jerry Britton On 9/19/02 2:15 PM, davep (davep@quik.com) wrote: > >> and no one ever hijacked an American train. > The names > > Jesse James > and > Butch Cassidy > and > James(?) Longebaugh > come to mind, for a short list... > (I won't mention Capt Pierre Cardona... 8)>>) Then there was that guy on the Silver Streak...oh, that's right, that was a movie! Can't help but think the finale wasn't somehow inspired by the PRR GG1 plowing through Washington Union! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:26:30 -0400 From: "Gluckman, Robert" Subject: [PRR] Harvard Tower I found a photo of the PRR Harvard tower on http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/. In what town/state was this tower located? Bob Gluckman IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database 8*222-2693 (585) 422-2693 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Harvard Tower Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:19:00 -0500 In Ohio, near Cleveland. -----Original Message----- From: Gluckman, Robert [mailto:Robert.Gluckman@usa.xerox.com] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 2:27 PM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: [PRR] Harvard Tower I found a photo of the PRR Harvard tower on http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/. In what town/state was this tower located? Bob Gluckman IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database 8*222-2693 (585) 422-2693 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] WWII Operations Question Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:54:21 -0400 My question pertains to operations during WWII on the Buffalo line, specifically Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium. When a freight train came into a yard like Renovo, the locomotive would be changed or serviced (which?), reefers would be cut out for icing, stock cars would be cut out for watering and exercise of the livestock. The cabin car might be changed?? Who handled the reefers and stock cars? I assume it was the yard crew. Who handled the cabin if it needed changed? Again, I assume the yard crew. In Williamsport and Emporium, passenger trains were switched, adding/removing cars from the Elmira Branch in Williamsport; combining or separating Buffalo/Erie trains in Emporium. Again, the yard crews? In Emporium a helper was added on the front for the assault on Keating Summit (RIP). I'd like to model the operations as much as possible like it was done back then, and I'm not at all sure about locomotive servicing vs. changes, and when cabin cars started running through rather than being assigned to crews. Thanks! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 18:06:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Don't --part1_39.2d30edca.2abba477_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Put a string of flat cars with large people on them behing these "Pennsy F-7's" and you'll have the perfect "Broadway Limited" train for your model ammusement park in HO or large scale. Sorry, can't take Z scale seriously. Several years ago, the household feline took care of the first and last Z scale train in this house. Rascal actually tried to eat it. Somethings are for the dogs.....Z scale is obviously for the cats. Evan Leisey --part1_39.2d30edca.2abba477_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Put a string of flat cars with large people on them behing these "Pennsy F-7's" and you'll have the perfect "Broadway Limited" train for your model ammusement park in HO or large scale.

Sorry, can't take Z scale seriously. Several years ago, the household feline took care of the first and last Z scale train in this house. Rascal actually tried to eat it. Somethings are for the dogs.....Z scale is obviously for the cats.

Evan Leisey

--part1_39.2d30edca.2abba477_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 16:54:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] WWII Operations Question My question pertains to operations during WWII on the Buffalo line, specifically Williamsport, Renovo, Emporium. When a freight train came into a yard like Renovo, the locomotive would be changed or serviced (which?), reefers would be cut out for icing, stock cars would be cut out for watering and exercise of the livestock. The cabin car might be changed?? Who handled the reefers and stock cars? I assume it was the yard crew. Who handled the cabin if it needed changed? Again, I assume the yard crew. In Williamsport and Emporium, passenger trains were switched, adding/removing cars from the Elmira Branch in Williamsport; combining or separating Buffalo/Erie trains in Emporium. Again, the yard crews? In Emporium a helper was added on the front for the assault on Keating Summit (RIP). I'd like to model the operations as much as possible like it was done back then, and I'm not at all sure about locomotive servicing vs. changes, and when cabin cars started running through rather than being assigned to crews. Thanks! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:06:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products << and no one ever hijacked an American train.>> How bout "The General" Locomotive not train name. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:11:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tichy Wreck Crane was Wreck Derrick Power In a message dated 9/19/02 8:15:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kbt@bit-net.com writes: << I am also contemplating building another, though this time I have to scratch build it in S scale. I have sold my Tichy model so short of driving down to the B&O museum with a tape measure, are there drawings/plans available? (or anyone have a tichy kit that they can loan to me? :) >> Check the MTH one in 3 rail "O" - they sent a Tichy 100 ton "derrick" to the Orient - they built it and did a credible copy too Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:05:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! From: Jerry Britton With numerous models announced, and the first one yet to ship, BLI has announced yet another loco... The PRR GG-1 !!! See http://www.broadway-limited.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:17:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! From: Jerry Britton On 9/20/02 8:05 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > With numerous models announced, and the first one yet to ship, BLI has > announced yet another loco... > > The PRR GG-1 !!! > > See > > http://www.broadway-limited.com/ Looking over the variants they will be offering, there is at least one that I "think" never existed. Their part #625 is a Tuscan unit with Gold Leaf lettering. Tuscan was introduced on passenger locos in 1952. By then everything would have been Buff, right? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:39:50 +0000 The last few E-8s had tuscan red paint with gold leaf trim. This is from the GM expert. BTW If Broadway wants to do something ,why don't they do an M-1a that is undecorated with extra parts; and leave the antenna in the bag. It would be nice to make one NOBODY has ever made. There are some combinations that would be interesting. Try and find a first run Challenger M-1a. Ed Case > On 9/20/02 8:05 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > > With numerous models announced, and the first one yet to ship, BLI has > > announced yet another loco... > > > > The PRR GG-1 !!! > > > > See > > > > http://www.broadway-limited.com/ > > Looking over the variants they will be offering, there is at least one that > I "think" never existed. > > Their part #625 is a Tuscan unit with Gold Leaf lettering. Tuscan was > introduced on passenger locos in 1952. By then everything would have been > Buff, right? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:22:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! --part1_cc.120713b9.2abc8912_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please dont start another thread on Broadway Limited :( BUT I for one hope they are late on all these releases because my pocket book cant handle the M1b, T1, and now a GG1 in one year :) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_cc.120713b9.2abc8912_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please dont start another thread on Broadway Limited :(

BUT I for one hope they are late on all these releases because my pocket book cant handle the M1b, T1, and now a GG1 in one year :)

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_cc.120713b9.2abc8912_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:33:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! From: Jerry Britton On 9/20/02 10:22 AM, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com (USMCnewdog25431@cs.com) wrote: > Please dont start another thread on Broadway Limited :( > > BUT I for one hope they are late on all these releases because my pocket book > cant handle the M1b, T1, and now a GG1 in one year :) > Have to admit, if I were today pondering the switch from HO to N scale... Releasing all those locos in PRR at one time is a bit shortsighted. You have to be wealthy to get the quantities you need, since they are limited runs. One per year would be a more reasonable release schedule, then folks could afford (perhaps) 3-4 of each model to build a decent roster. Of perhaps one new road number every four months. I dunno. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:34:34 +0000 USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote: >I for one hope they are late on all these releases because my pocket >book >cant handle the M1b, T1, and now a GG1 in one year :) > That is if they come out in the same year. Given BLI sliding schedule, I doubt if all 3 will come out the same year. BTW, isn't Roco planning in coming out with a detailed GG-1? Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:42:37 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products Don't Gentry, Afraid I have to disagree with Jerry's assessment of Marklin's "passenger F7's" set, after taking a moment to think about it. After all, take a look at the market. They're talking Z scale here. Z scale...hell, I've been in the hobby over fourty years and can't even tell you what proportion that is. (What, 1:220 or something?) Doesn't matter in any event. The point is, Z scale is a different ball game than the more mainstream scales. It's market share is very small, certainly less than 1% of model railroaders, at least in the US, I'd gather. What percentage of these Z scalers do you imagine are serious prototype modelers? Of of those who are, how many are into Pennsy? And of these Z scale, Pennsy-specific protomodelers, how many care about an extra four feet of length in Z scale ? I'd bet a case of suds that all of them would fit easily into a typical mini-van (or Beetle for that matter). I think what Marklin did was compare the concerns of this carload of guys to the other potential customers: Z scale collectors, novelty buyers, Z scale modelers happy to get anything that runs well, Pennsy fans and folks who just think the Pennsy train looks neat. I'm not so sure they made such a big mistake. And, as a chuckle, I'd bet that if BLI had announched such a set in their ever-expanding roundhouse, we'd be hearing what a brainstorm, a masterstroke, this Pennsy set was! Regards, and have a good weekend folks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:55:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] And Some Manufacturers Wonder Why Their Products From: Jerry Britton On 9/20/02 10:42 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > Afraid I have to disagree with Jerry's assessment of Marklin's "passenger > F7's" set, after taking a moment to think about it. After all, take a look at > the market. They're talking Z scale here. Z scale...hell, I've been in the > hobby over fourty years and can't even tell you what proportion that is. > (What, 1:220 or something?) Doesn't matter in any event. The point is, Z scale > is a different ball game than the more mainstream scales. It's market share is > very small, certainly less than 1% of model railroaders, at least in the US, > I'd gather. What percentage of these Z scalers do you imagine are serious > prototype modelers? Of of those who are, how many are into Pennsy? And of > these Z scale, Pennsy-specific protomodelers, how many care about an extra > four feet of length in Z scale ? I'd bet a case of suds that all of them would > fit easily into a typical mini-van (or Beetle for that matter). > I think what Marklin did was compare the concerns of this carload of guys to > the other potential customers: Z scale collectors, novelty buyers, Z scale > modelers happy to get anything that runs well, Pennsy fans and folks who just > think the Pennsy train looks neat. I'm not so sure they made such a big > mistake. And, as a chuckle, I'd bet that if BLI had announched such a set in > their ever-expanding roundhouse, we'd be hearing what a brainstorm, a > masterstroke, this Pennsy set was! Your opinion is certainly honored...and you make a good point about 4' not being noticable in Z scale. But a Z scale F unit painted in Tuscan Red will not appear to be DGLE!!! Are you saying that 100 years from now a railroad fan doing research on the PRR might find a Tuscan F unit and that would be acceptable to become "generally accepted" history? Four feet is one thing, color is another. It should be in DGLE single narrow stripe. Otherwise, market it as an FP7. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:16:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! In a message dated 9/20/02 7:57:27 AM Central Daylight Time, PRR5499@att.net writes: << The last few E-8s had tuscan red paint with gold leaf trim. >> 2 or 4 of 'em, reportedly. Color photo of 5789 in Prototype Modeler Nov-Dec 1988. Why is subject coming up? I thought Broadway Limited was doing an E7. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:21:51 +0000 Do I detect a defensive maneuver here? If you were thinking about doing one and somebody (Roco) was going to beat you to the punch with a better than average issue would you tell the world to hold on for yours to have an effect on their sales? In the meantime they are playing Pennsy fans for adoring sycophants that will eventually result in some serious anger if they keep up this ludicrous charade of supposed releases. What makes me think my two week old granddaughter will understand what a G is before we see this? Norm Bell > On 9/20/02 10:22 AM, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com (USMCnewdog25431@cs.com) wrote: > > > Please dont start another thread on Broadway Limited :( > > > > BUT I for one hope they are late on all these releases because my pocket book > > cant handle the M1b, T1, and now a GG1 in one year :) > > > Have to admit, if I were today pondering the switch from HO to N scale... > > Releasing all those locos in PRR at one time is a bit shortsighted. You have > to be wealthy to get the quantities you need, since they are limited runs. > One per year would be a more reasonable release schedule, then folks could > afford (perhaps) 3-4 of each model to build a decent roster. Of perhaps one > new road number every four months. I dunno. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:23:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! From: Jerry Britton On 9/20/02 11:16 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > Why is subject coming up? I thought Broadway Limited was doing an E7. > They are doing E7's...the "first" release is just incorrect for PRR, I believe. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:45:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! In a message dated 9/20/02 10:27:22 AM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << If you were thinking about doing one and somebody (Roco) was going to beat you to the punch with a better than average issue would you tell the world to hold on for yours to have an effect on their sales? >> I think that if Roco releases a reasonably accurate, good-running GG1 with sound in a DCC set similar to the other sets they showed at the National Hobby Show, they will get enough business to keep them happy (not starting any rumors, just giving an example). Yeah, their stuff doesn't excite the more particular crowd, but that isn't the mass market. I believe BL is trying to get a little of both crowds. For example, I am not an NYC expert, but I don't think their Hudson is a state of the art superdetailed version. It is "good enough" for some of the particular crowd but will get the Lionel crowd with its sound effects RTR. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 17:50:09 +0100 They must be mad! If Roco are doing one next year why are BLI?? surely a P5 would be a better idea... Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 1:05 PM Subject: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! > With numerous models announced, and the first one yet to ship, BLI has > announced yet another loco... > > The PRR GG-1 !!! > > See > > http://www.broadway-limited.com/ > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ron Ditty" Subject: [PRR] Trevorton coal breaker Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:45:13 -0400 I'm trying to get photo's of the [still standing, but in very bad repair] the coal breaker at the western end of Trevorton, Pa. [Northumberland Co., Coal Township]...If any of you have seen this breaker, you'd know that it is worth modeling...In the shape of an octopus, with the 'arms' being conveyors for the coal [assuming different sizes or grades of coal], being fed out to train or trucks as needed. I'm not sure if this is a Reading company or not, as the P.R.R. had tracks in the area, but I do believe that reading was the carrier. And dsome sources have told me that this was named the "Stevens" breaker, but I haven't been able to confirm or deny that. When I do get some photo's of this, I will put it on my Yah*ll profile for others to see the modelling potential. Ron [ditty@pa.net / purplestrat63@yahoo.com] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:37:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Harvard Tower --part1_48.11e41039.2abcd30d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/20/02 1:24:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Harvard Tower > From: "Gluckman, Robert" > Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:26:30 -0400 > > I found a photo of the PRR Harvard tower on > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/. In what town/state was this tower > located? > > Bob Gluckman > IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database > 8*222-2693 > (585) 422-2693 > Bob, Harvard Tower was where the Cleveland & Pittsburgh (PRR leasee) crossed Harvard Avenue on its way through southeast Cleveland on its way to its daring dash down the bluffs to the shore of Lake Erie. Although I wasn't in time to shoot Harvard Tower, I did find Harvard passenger station and possibly a freight house still standing 2-3 years ago on a freezing February day. Believe I saw the Amtrak from Cleveland soon after in the same neighborhood. I'm in hopes that Mark Bej and others can provide a more substantial answer to your question... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_48.11e41039.2abcd30d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/20/02 1:24:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Subject: Harvard Tower
From: "Gluckman, Robert" <Robert.Gluckman@usa.xerox.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:26:30 -0400

I found a photo of the PRR Harvard tower on
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/. In what town/state was this tower
located?

Bob Gluckman
IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database
8*222-2693
(585) 422-2693

Bob,

Harvard Tower was where the Cleveland & Pittsburgh (PRR leasee) crossed Harvard Avenue on its way through southeast Cleveland on its way to its daring dash down the bluffs to the shore of Lake Erie.

Although I wasn't in time to shoot Harvard Tower, I did find Harvard passenger station and possibly a freight house still standing 2-3 years ago on a freezing February day. Believe I saw the Amtrak from Cleveland soon after in the same neighborhood.

I'm in hopes that Mark Bej and others can provide a more substantial answer to your question...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_48.11e41039.2abcd30d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 18:57:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] More on lights & lanterns In a message dated 9/19/02 10:25:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gpierson@trnty.edu writes: << is there a difference between "yellow" and "amber"? >> Yes, in the days of kerosene lanterns (Yellow flames) the lenses were "amber" (almost orange) to show a yellow aspect, after dark - "red" lenses were almost Purple and, in the book "the Brass Pounder" the young telegrapher thinks that someone is testing him when he opens a box of "green" lenses that look blue to him. (show green when lit) Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:09:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F Units on the Pennsy In a message dated 9/18/02 10:19:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Simple...PRR-painted equipment isn't "pretty" enough to sell to the R-T-R collector crowd >> Doesn't this apply more to NYC equipment? The Grey was pretty dull - Lionel, with their original "F-3's" made a deal to sell ATSF in the West & NYC in the East > only trouble was everyone wanted the "War Bonnets" and some dealers/buyers (from the east) even made specia; trips to Chicago - to get them... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:25:19 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Correcting errors in Jeffersonville posting. More questions about Jeff Got over to the Pennsy line in Jeff myself this week and took a look. Thus, let me correct my previous post, which contained some errors. A more accurate description of the situation is: I-65 parallels the ex-PRR yard area from Boyd all the way to where Jeffersonville's passenger station stood. A little south, it crosses under the tracks, heading for the six-lane Kennedy bridge across the Ohio River into Louisville. The original build of I-65 (well prior to 1970) may have taken a strip down the edge of some PRR land, but wasn't all that close to any yard tracks, and the freeway underpass had keystones cast into the concrete (so sometime prior to 1968). I-65 north of the Ohio River has long been swamped by a tide of trucks, not to mention the commuters (both to Louisville employment and from Louisville housing). Seemingly it's been under construction since I moved here, but most of the work has been repaving projects that avoided major relocation. However, the rebuild under way now is increasing the number of lanes, remodeling how ramps work, etc. Part of the remodeling of Jeffersonville Yard by the LIRC involved clearing off land west of the active tracks. I was puzzled a year or so ago when newer larger billboards, much farther from the interstate, replaced the old ones. Now the plan is clear -- new lanes are being built on the land cleared. Thus, the highway project is taking a much bigger bite out of ex-PRR land. OTOH, it still has not moved the main a bit from its location in, say, 1942. At the PRR/I-65 bridge, I found that the east side (former northbound track, with facade visible to northbound auto traffic) is still there, but the west side (former southbound track) is gone. That side of the bridge is being replaced by new abutments that provide additional space for the lanes. I believe Chad commented that the result of this rebuilding will be a single track bridge for the LIRC -- probably true. In any case, it's clear that any pictures of the keystones had better be taken soon, because that track will come out as soon as the other is in. While on the subject, I'm a little shaky on the era that the Sixties version of Jeffersonville Yard replaced ancient, cramped yards in downtown Jeffersonville, and the new alighnment made straight for the Ohio River bridge without detouring through Jeff first. We local fans assume the metal "engine house" circa 1960 allowed the closing of both 14th Street Lousville and the small rounhouse in downtown Jeff. We'd also like to discover more about the Crestline-style ("USRA") roundhouse that was cancelled for Jeff -- like where would it have stood? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 22:25:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] Correcting errors in Jeffersonville posting. More --part1_129.17ce2a87.2abd328f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Got over to the Pennsy line in Jeff myself this week and took a look. Thus, let me correct my previous post, which contained some errors. A more accurate description of the situation is: I-65 parallels the ex-PRR yard area from Boyd all the way to where Jeffersonville's passenger station stood. A little south, it crosses under the tracks, heading for the six-lane Kennedy bridge across the Ohio River into Louisville. The original build of I-65 (well prior to 1970) may have taken a strip down the edge of some PRR land, but wasn't all that close to any yard tracks, and the freeway underpass had keystones cast into the concrete (so sometime prior to 1968). I-65 north of the Ohio River has long been swamped by a tide of trucks, not to mention the commuters (both to Louisville employment and from Louisville housing). Seemingly it's been under construction since I moved here, but most of the work has been repaving projects that avoided major relocation. However, the rebuild under way now is increasing the number of lanes, remodeling how ramps work, etc. Part of the remodeling of Jeffersonville Yard by the LIRC involved clearing off land west of the active tracks. I was puzzled a year or so ago when newer larger billboards, much farther from the interstate, replaced the old ones. Now the plan is clear -- new lanes are being built on the land cleared. Thus, the highway project is taking a much bigger bite out of ex-PRR land. OTOH, it still has not moved the main a bit from its location in, say, 1942. At the PRR/I-65 bridge, I found that the east side (former northbound track, with facade visible to northbound auto traffic) is still there, but the west side (former southbound track) is gone. That side of the bridge is being replaced by new abutments that provide additional space for the lanes. I believe Chad commented that the result of this rebuilding will be a single track bridge for the LIRC -- probably true. In any case, it's clear that any pictures of the keystones had better be taken soon, because that track will come out as soon as the other is in. While on the subject, I'm a little shaky on the era that the Sixties version of Jeffersonville Yard replaced ancient, cramped yards in downtown Jeffersonville, and the new alighnment made straight for the Ohio River bridge without detouring through Jeff first. We local fans assume the metal "engine house" circa 1960 allowed the closing of both 14th Street Lousville and the small rounhouse in downtown Jeff. We'd also like to discover more about the Crestline-style ("USRA") roundhouse that was cancelled for Jeff -- like where would it have stood? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_129.17ce2a87.2abd328f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Got over to the Pennsy line in Jeff myself this week and took a look. Thus, let me correct my previous post, which contained some errors. A more accurate description of the situation is:

I-65 parallels the ex-PRR yard area from Boyd all the way to where Jeffersonville's passenger station stood. A little south, it crosses under the tracks, heading for the six-lane Kennedy bridge across the Ohio River into Louisville.

The original build of I-65 (well prior to 1970) may have taken a strip down the edge of some PRR land, but wasn't all that close to any yard tracks, and the freeway underpass had keystones cast into the concrete (so sometime prior to 1968).

I-65 north of the Ohio River has long been swamped by a tide of trucks, not to mention the commuters (both to Louisville employment and from Louisville housing). Seemingly it's been under construction since I moved here, but most of the work has been repaving projects that avoided major relocation. However, the rebuild under way now is increasing the number of lanes, remodeling how ramps work, etc.

Part of the remodeling of Jeffersonville Yard by the LIRC involved clearing off land west of the active tracks. I was puzzled a year or so ago when newer larger billboards, much farther from the interstate, replaced the old ones. Now the plan is clear -- new lanes are being built on the land cleared. Thus, the highway project is taking a much bigger bite out of ex-PRR land. OTOH, it still has not moved the main a bit from its location in, say, 1942.

At the PRR/I-65 bridge, I found that the east side (former northbound track, with facade visible to northbound auto traffic) is still there, but the west side (former southbound track) is gone. That side of the bridge is being replaced by new abutments that provide additional space for the lanes. I believe Chad commented that the result of this rebuilding will be a single track bridge for the LIRC -- probably true. In any case, it's clear that any pictures of the keystones had better be taken soon, because that track will come out as soon as the other is in.

While on the subject, I'm a little shaky on the era that the Sixties version of Jeffersonville Yard replaced ancient, cramped yards in downtown Jeffersonville, and the new alighnment made straight for the Ohio River bridge without detouring through Jeff first. We local fans assume the metal "engine house" circa 1960 allowed the closing of both 14th Street Lousville and the small rounhouse in downtown Jeff. We'd also like to discover more about the Crestline-style ("USRA") roundhouse that was cancelled for Jeff -- like where would it have stood?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_129.17ce2a87.2abd328f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRR in the Wiregrass: 9/28/02 Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:18:44 -0400 Lists, I will have my N scale PRR layout at the Wiregrass Train Show sponsored by the Wiregrass Chapter of the NHRS, to be held at The National Peanut Festival main building, Dothan, AL, on September 28th from 9 AM, to 4 PM, CDT I plan to operate my PRR H3 built from an MDC Roundhouse 2-8-0 but will have additional equipment to run on my 2 ft. by 4 ft. layout. I'll be wearing my WGH Ambassador's button and giving away stickers to the kids and WGH booklets to others. Y'all c'mon by and we'll talk about the Standard Railroad of the World. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 13:18:13 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] Passenger Shark trucks Don't have the right information at hand and have been unable to find the answer so far - was the truck used under the passenger shark similar to or the same as the PA? __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Railroad Videotapes Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 14:16:35 -0400 Does anyone know whether Midwest Video Productions of Aurora IL is still in business? I am looking for videos on Chicago (recent timeframe) and they had some good ones - railroads like BRC and IHB, and videos on tower junctions, river crossings, etc. Their 800 number is now an insurance company and I haven't had a reply to my written query. I am after any video footage relating to PRR, especially steam era. If they're gone, any leads on videos on Belt Railway of Chicago, Indiana Harbor Belt, or Chicago (present day) in general? TIA Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:45:19 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] X50B Boxcar lettering In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:03:03 EDT > From: Midlandblb@cs.com > Subject: Re: Boxcars at Jeff > > Rick: > > Thanks for your note. The Penn Central box car is #153177; its > Pennsylvania > Railroad number was 607627 (the Pennsy number is up in the corner of the > car > although the PC paint is now fading so badly that the number is getting > extremely hard to read.) As I said before, we would like to repaint the > car > into an authentic Pennsy scheme, providing we can find one. > > Les Beckman (HVRM) > Les, According to an index of paint schemes I've been building, this car is an X50B (607550-607949) and is described (among others) in the June 1979 Keystone, pages 16-19 or so. The Altoona photo shown for #607618 is E-22247, and the #607801 is a photo from my friend Rich Burg. The paint scheme is SK2a as described by the McGuire nomenclature (discussed in Spring 1988 Keystone). Among other things, this car would have the 16" PENNSYLVANIA over 7" PRR over 7" car number. Unfortunately, neither of these issues of the Keystone is in print. Alas, I have no additional references to the X50B box. Sounds like you might need xeroxes of one or both articles to do your lettering correctly. Since this class was rebuilt and painted only 9 years from the end of the PRR, cars repainted in the one later scheme (Plain Keystone) would be rare. Thus, I'd strongly recommend restoring it to its original paint scheme. BTW, it doesn't surprise me that the car came up for repair/repainting during the PC years. Do I understand you correctly that the car would be displayed at North Judson IN? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 17:45:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] X50B Boxcar lettering --part1_68.2614d584.2abe426f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:03:03 EDT > From: Midlandblb@cs.com > Subject: Re: Boxcars at Jeff > > Rick: > > Thanks for your note. The Penn Central box car is #153177; its > Pennsylvania > Railroad number was 607627 (the Pennsy number is up in the corner of the > car > although the PC paint is now fading so badly that the number is getting > extremely hard to read.) As I said before, we would like to repaint the > car > into an authentic Pennsy scheme, providing we can find one. > > Les Beckman (HVRM) > Les, According to an index of paint schemes I've been building, this car is an X50B (607550-607949) and is described (among others) in the June 1979 Keystone, pages 16-19 or so. The Altoona photo shown for #607618 is E-22247, and the #607801 is a photo from my friend Rich Burg. The paint scheme is SK2a as described by the McGuire nomenclature (discussed in Spring 1988 Keystone). Among other things, this car would have the 16" PENNSYLVANIA over 7" PRR over 7" car number. Unfortunately, neither of these issues of the Keystone is in print. Alas, I have no additional references to the X50B box. Sounds like you might need xeroxes of one or both articles to do your lettering correctly. Since this class was rebuilt and painted only 9 years from the end of the PRR, cars repainted in the one later scheme (Plain Keystone) would be rare. Thus, I'd strongly recommend restoring it to its original paint scheme. BTW, it doesn't surprise me that the car came up for repair/repainting during the PC years. Do I understand you correctly that the car would be displayed at North Judson IN? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_68.2614d584.2abe426f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:03:03 EDT
From: Midlandblb@cs.com
Subject: Re: Boxcars at Jeff

Rick:

Thanks for your note. The Penn Central box car is #153177; its Pennsylvania
Railroad number was 607627 (the Pennsy number is up in the corner of the car
although the PC paint is now fading so badly that the number is getting
extremely hard to read.) As I said before, we would like to repaint the car
into an authentic Pennsy scheme, providing we can find one.

Les Beckman (HVRM)

Les,

According to an index of paint schemes I've been building, this car is an X50B (607550-607949) and is described (among others) in the June 1979 Keystone, pages 16-19 or so. The Altoona photo shown for #607618 is E-22247, and the #607801 is a photo from my friend Rich Burg. The paint scheme is SK2a as described by the McGuire nomenclature (discussed in Spring 1988 Keystone). Among other things, this car would have the 16" PENNSYLVANIA over 7" PRR over 7" car number.

Unfortunately, neither of these issues of the Keystone is in print. Alas, I have no additional references to the X50B box. Sounds like you might need xeroxes of one or both articles to do your lettering correctly.

Since this class was rebuilt and painted only 9 years from the end of the PRR, cars repainted in the one later scheme (Plain Keystone) would be rare. Thus, I'd strongly recommend restoring it to its original paint scheme. BTW, it doesn't surprise me that the car came up for repair/repainting during the PC years.

Do I understand you correctly that the car would be displayed at North Judson IN?

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_68.2614d584.2abe426f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] Yet Another Broadway Limited Announcement! Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:15:16 -0400 > >Their part #625 is a Tuscan unit with Gold Leaf lettering. Tuscan was >introduced on passenger locos in 1952. By then everything would have been >Buff, right? Maybe, but I recall seeing a brand new E8 in tuscan red with gold leaf striping. Never saw a red G with gold leaf. Saw tons of them in green with buff lettering/striping (immitation gold). Andrew Harmantas, SPF from down here near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: RE: [PRR] Painted Budd Cars Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:22:54 -0400 >Are you sure. "Cawabunga" was the epitaph that the Indian Chief uttered on >the Howdy Doody show when I was a boy! "Cowabunga Falls", indeed. Yes, indeed, it was the character Chief Thunderthud, on the "Howdy Doody Show", with the exclamation of "cowabunga". He was Dayton Allen, Jr. a graduate of the Yiddish theater, and vaudeville, who went on to become one of Steve Allen's men in the street. He was the one who answered every question with a very loud "why not!", and then proceeded into a string of some of the best double talk ever on stage. In the eary days of TV, when recycled Hollywood shorts were played, he could be seen in "another visit with the doctor", where he would look into the camera and say "hello, sickies". It was his shingle that I have lifted for my internet signature: Dayton Allen, Jr, Auther, Lecturer, World Traveler, and Bum. The name in question for the pasenger car might have been Catawba, possibly Catawba Rapids, or Falls. Andrew Harmantas, by no means a passenger car name expert. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 20:04:06 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Wire Train Bruce (Smith) and others, Nice shot of a steam powered wire train at HBG in the new Withers' book, PRR-DLP Vol. 7, on page 505. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 10:30:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Trip East --part1_177.eff875c.2abf2e01_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I am leaving Dallas Wed for Altoona, Strasburg, and Scranton. I will visit the curve, museum, and Gallitzin in Altoona: the Railroad, & museum in Strasburg; and Steamtown in Scranton. I would appreciate any recommended sights/activities that you might be aware of. As an example, is there a good spot in Altoona for taking pictures where I won't get chased? Is there any prototype hot spots near Scranton? Thanks in advance, Jerry --part1_177.eff875c.2abf2e01_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All,
I am leaving Dallas Wed for Altoona, Strasburg, and Scranton. I will visit the curve, museum, and Gallitzin in Altoona: the Railroad, & museum in Strasburg; and Steamtown in Scranton.
I would appreciate any recommended sights/activities that you might be aware of. As an example, is there a good spot in Altoona for taking pictures where I won't get chased? Is there any prototype hot spots near Scranton?
Thanks in advance,
Jerry
--part1_177.eff875c.2abf2e01_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 12:46:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Alco PA vs. Baldwin Passenger Sharks Trucks --part1_127.175feafd.2abf4dde_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr.Bear The trucks appear very similar right down to the same wheelbase 15' 6" and mix of leaf and coil springs. Brake cylinders are slightly different shape. The one difference that might be noticeable but easily corrected is wheel size 40" on the PA and 42" on the passenger shark. I hope this helps. Sources: MR Cyclopedia Vol. 2 Diesels RMC July 1968 Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 Years --part1_127.175feafd.2abf4dde_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr.Bear

The trucks appear very similar right down to the same wheelbase 15' 6" and mix of leaf and coil springs. Brake cylinders are slightly different shape. The one difference that might be noticeable but easily corrected is wheel size 40" on the PA and 42" on the passenger shark.
I hope this helps.
Sources: MR Cyclopedia Vol. 2 Diesels
RMC July 1968

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 Years --part1_127.175feafd.2abf4dde_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Trip East Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:09:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C26239.5011D8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry- I enjoyed the famous brickyard crossing just southeast of town. Also, the tunnels at Gallitzin are awesome. Jackson street crossing by the tunnels is great. Also, you can still get to AR tower. It is no longer in use, but you can definitely get to it via the access road. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ARRJERRY@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 10:30 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Trip East Hi All, I am leaving Dallas Wed for Altoona, Strasburg, and Scranton. I will visit the curve, museum, and Gallitzin in Altoona: the Railroad, & museum in Strasburg; and Steamtown in Scranton. I would appreciate any recommended sights/activities that you might be aware of. As an example, is there a good spot in Altoona for taking pictures where I won't get chased? Is there any prototype hot spots near Scranton? Thanks in advance, Jerry ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C26239.5011D8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Je= rry-

I = enjoyed the famous brickyard crossing just southeast of town.=A0 Also, the tunnels at Gallitzin are awesome.=A0 Jackson street crossing by the = tunnels is great.=A0 Also, you can still = get to AR tower.=A0 It is no longer in = use, but you can definitely get to it via the access road.=A0

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of ARRJERRY@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September = 22, 2002 10:30 AM
To: PRR Talk
Subject: [PRR] Trip = East

Hi All,
I am leaving Dallas Wed for Altoona, Strasburg, and Scranton. I will = visit the curve, museum, and Gallitzin in Altoona: the Railroad, & museum in Strasburg; and Steamtown in Scranton.
I would appreciate any recommended sights/activities that you might be = aware of. As an example, is there a good spot in Altoona for taking pictures = where I won't get chased? Is there any prototype hot spots near Scranton?
Thanks in advance,
Jerry <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C26239.5011D8C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trip East Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 16:21:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C26254.1172B420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh my, I'm jealous. Suggestions: 1. Altoona: -Railroader's Memorial Museum -Walkway over railroad in front of museum -Overpass near there and by Alto tower -Brickyard road crossing. Try bank on uphill side of tracks -Horseshoe Curve -Overpass by tunnel portals in Galitzin (can only see 2 of 3 tracks) -Cresson: Railfan platform. Try Station Inn (Cresson) for a place=20 to stay. Tracks run right by front porch. Restaurants = within walking distance, bar downstairs in Inn. Front rooms are=20 noisy (all those darn trains [YES] all night!). 2. Strasburg -RR Museum of PA -Strasburg RR -Strasburg RR Bookstore. Upstairs. A MUST. -Various other museums and toy train museums - just ask around. 3. Scranton: -Steamtown. Ride the excursion. Ask for maps to get to Myrtle=20 St. road crossing just above tunnel - great spot for filming excursion trains. Walk down to tunnel. Used to be ok - can't=20 hurt to check at Steamtown (they own it). -Univ. of Scranton, just up from Steamtown and Lackawanna RR Station. Under the street overpass is a very cool place to = watch=20 and film. -Trolley Museum - adjacent to Steamtown. Short excursion ride. -Coal mine tour and coal museum, Dade Park. Mine tour is a must. Again, ask for directions and hours. -No info on prototype railfanning in Scranton - sorry. I could use=20 info on this myself. Have a great time, and let us all know how it went. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ARRJERRY@aol.com=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 10:30 AM Subject: [PRR] Trip East Hi All,=20 I am leaving Dallas Wed for Altoona, Strasburg, and Scranton. I will = visit the curve, museum, and Gallitzin in Altoona: the Railroad, & = museum in Strasburg; and Steamtown in Scranton.=20 I would appreciate any recommended sights/activities that you might be = aware of. As an example, is there a good spot in Altoona for taking = pictures where I won't get chased? Is there any prototype hot spots near = Scranton?=20 Thanks in advance,=20 Jerry=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C26254.1172B420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh my, I'm jealous. = Suggestions:

1. Altoona:

-Railroader's Memorial=20 Museum

-Walkway over railroad in = front of=20 museum

-Overpass near there and by = Alto=20 tower

-Brickyard road = crossing. Try=20 bank on uphill side of tracks

-Horseshoe Curve

-Overpass by tunnel portals = in Galitzin=20 (can only see 2 of 3 tracks)

-Cresson: Railfan = platform. =20 Try Station Inn (Cresson) for a place

= =20 to stay. Tracks run right by front porch. Restaurants=20 within

= =20 walking distance, bar downstairs in Inn. Front rooms are =

= =20 noisy (all those darn trains [YES] all night!).

2. Strasburg

-RR Museum of PA

-Strasburg RR

-Strasburg RR = Bookstore. =20 Upstairs. A MUST.

-Various other museums and = toy train=20 museums - just ask around.

3. Scranton:

-Steamtown. Ride the=20 excursion. Ask for maps to get to Myrtle

St. road = crossing=20 just above tunnel - great spot for filming

excursion=20 trains. Walk down to tunnel. Used to be ok - can't =

hurt to = check at=20 Steamtown (they own it).

-Univ. of Scranton, = just up from=20 Steamtown and Lackawanna RR

= Station. =20 Under the street overpass is a very cool place to watch

and=20 film.

-Trolley Museum - adjacent to = Steamtown. Short excursion ride.

-Coal mine tour and coal = museum, Dade=20 Park. Mine tour is a must.

Again, ask = for=20 directions and hours.

-No info on prototype = railfanning in=20 Scranton - sorry. I could use

info on = this=20 myself.

Have a great time, and let us all know how it=20 went.

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
Williamsport WWII

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 ARRJERRY@aol.com=20

To: PRR Talk

Sent: Sunday, September 22, = 2002 10:30=20 AM

Subject: [PRR] Trip East

Hi All, =
I am=20 leaving Dallas Wed for Altoona, Strasburg, and Scranton. I will visit = the=20 curve, museum, and Gallitzin in Altoona: the Railroad, & museum in = Strasburg; and Steamtown in Scranton.
I would appreciate any = recommended=20 sights/activities that you might be aware of. As an example, is there = a good=20 spot in Altoona for taking pictures where I won't get chased? Is there = any=20 prototype hot spots near Scranton?
Thanks in advance,=20
Jerry=20
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C26254.1172B420-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:27:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Winfield painting From: Roger P Hensley It that Painting on the cover of the Keystone available as a print? That is one beautiful scene. Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:12:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Winfield painting --part1_47.23920556.2abf8c32_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger- I agree 100% and was wondering the same thing. Everytime I've picked up the current Keystone I've said to myself I really somewhere, some how, have to get a copy of this. So let me ask the same question. Is the beautiful cover painting avalible as a print? If so where? If not, what do we need to do to make it so??? Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 --part1_47.23920556.2abf8c32_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger-
I agree 100% and was wondering the same thing. Everytime I've picked up the current Keystone I've said to myself I really somewhere, some how, have to get a copy of this. So let me ask the same question. Is the beautiful cover painting avalible as a print? If so where? If not, what do we need to do to make it so???

Jon S.
PRRT&HS #3079 --part1_47.23920556.2abf8c32_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Winfield painting Hello Jon, Page 3 of the latest "Keystone" tells how to get a print of the Winfield cover painting. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:40:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Winfield painting --part1_97.2dcf9074.2abf92bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/22/02 2:33:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > Hello Jon, > > Page 3 of the latest "Keystone" tells how to get a print of the > Winfield cover painting. Hope this helps. > > Dave Hopson > Dave- Thanks so much Dave. I gues I missed that. I must admit I haven't had a chance to really read the whole issue as of yet. Jon --part1_97.2dcf9074.2abf92bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/22/02 2:33:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:

Hello Jon,

Page 3 of the latest "Keystone" tells how to get a print of the
Winfield cover painting. Hope this helps.

Dave Hopson

Dave-

Thanks so much Dave. I gues I missed that. I must admit I haven't had a chance to really read the whole issue as of yet.

Jon --part1_97.2dcf9074.2abf92bd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 17:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Winfield painting Jon........ I think Mr. Winfield sells his prints by mail order also. I've seen his ads in various RR magazines. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 19:43:40 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] Winfield painting zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Jon........ > > I think Mr. Winfield sells his prints by mail order also. I've > seen his ads in various RR magazines. > > Dave http://www.winfieldrailart.com/main.html John W Rosenbauer --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.60] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:08:15 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] 1957 M.P. 229 Hi All, Does anyone have a M.P. 229 for 1957? I have the one for 3-1-56. I am trying to determine whether the following J-1and J-1a were still active. If so, what date and region? 6169 J-1 6403 J-1 6474 J-1a Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 07:08:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] 1957 M.P. 229 Hi All, Does anyone have a M.P. 229 for 1957? I have the one for 3-1-56. I am trying to determine whether the following J-1and J-1a were still active. If so, what date and region? 6169 J-1 6403 J-1 6474 J-1a Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Stewart models Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:23:36 +0000 Steve Stewart who is the person behind Stewart Models has lost his wife to cancer. He has had a series of medical concerns. I believe his son had a serious heart problem and possibly a transplant a year or two ago. It was one of the reasons the C-628's and C-630's were delayed. Obviously he will have some issues to deal with and in the event deliveries slip thought we should be a little more patient then we usually are. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:28:23 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] FW: Stewart Hobbies Subject: Stewart Hobbies I don't know how many of you may have heard this sad news about Steve's wife, Terry, so I'm passing it along. It was dated today, September 22nd. Terry Stewart passed away at 10:05 a.m. today after a 9 month battle with leukemia. The service will be held on Thursday, September 26 at Huff & Lakjer Funeral Home, Derstine & Cannon Aves, Lansdale, PA 19446-0645, Phone number 215) 855-3311. Friends and family may visit from 9:30-11:00 am that day with the service following at 11:00 am. Interment will follow at Whitemarsh Memorial Park in Prospectville, PA. One of Terry's wishes was that somber clothing not be worn at the service. Thank you for your thoughts, prayers and cards. Steve Stewart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:41:15 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] PRR catenary types Howdy y'all, The discussion on modeling PRR catenary over the past couple of weeks has really gotten me interested in this (and a good thing too as I have MILES of electrified territory to model!). One thing I realized pretty quickly...all PRR catenary was NOT the same!! I had heard that the C&PD and A&S did not have the same "compound" catenary as did the passenger main lines. Compound catenary consists of the gracefully arcing messenger wire, a fairly level "auxiliary" wire and just below the auxilary wire, the contact or "trolley" wire. The simplified catenary on the C&PD and A&S consisted of just the messenger and trolley wires. This is confirmed in the Keystone, Volume 29, #4 (Winter 1996). Interestingly, a quick perusal of photogrpahs indicates that "simplified" catenary appears in many locations, system wide, where slow speeds might be the rule, such as enginehouse areas and freight only lines, such as the Grey's Ferry branch, the B1 track at Harrisburg, etc... To further confound the issue, it appears that the simplified catentry on the A&S and perhaps the C&PD were replaced by compound catenary in 1963 or '64! On top of everything else, simplified catenary may look simpler, but it may be more difficult to model, since the auxiliary and trolley wire of compound catenary can be soldered together on the bench and then "hung" from support wires (through the gap between aux and trolley wire) until soldered into place. The simplified catenary requires that the support wires be soldered directly to the top of the trolley wire! In addition, simplified catenary had bends in the support wire to make sure that the support wires did not get hooked by the pantograph on curves. This is gonna be fun! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:51:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types From: Jerry Britton On 9/23/02 1:41 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > The discussion on modeling PRR catenary over the past couple of weeks has > really gotten me interested in this (and a good thing too as I have MILES > of electrified territory to model!). Not to mention your need to model a 12"=1' building to put the layout in!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:28:56 -0400 Bruce, A further complication is that PRR catenary was constructed in at least three distinct phases The first phase was the electrification of the Philadelphia Terminal area and suburban lines, including the Main Line to Paoli prior to World War I. In the early 1930's electrification was extended to New York and Wilmington. And in the mid-1930's the final extensions were made to Harrisburg and Wassdhington, along with several freight only lines like the A&S and the Jamesburg Branch in NJ. The lije poles used in the original electrification were round, not the girders used in later construction. Each time more was constructed better and cheaper methods were found. At least PRR did not use triangular catenary with two "messengers" like the NH!! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR catenary types > Howdy y'all, > > The discussion on modeling PRR catenary over the past couple of weeks has > really gotten me interested in this (and a good thing too as I have MILES > of electrified territory to model!). One thing I realized pretty > quickly...all PRR catenary was NOT the same!! > > I had heard that the C&PD and A&S did not have the same "compound" catenary > as did the passenger main lines. Compound catenary consists of the > gracefully arcing messenger wire, a fairly level "auxiliary" wire and just > below the auxilary wire, the contact or "trolley" wire. The simplified > catenary on the C&PD and A&S consisted of just the messenger and trolley > wires. This is confirmed in the Keystone, Volume 29, #4 (Winter 1996). > Interestingly, a quick perusal of photogrpahs indicates that "simplified" > catenary appears in many locations, system wide, where slow speeds might be > the rule, such as enginehouse areas and freight only lines, such as the > Grey's Ferry branch, the B1 track at Harrisburg, etc... To further > confound the issue, it appears that the simplified catentry on the A&S and > perhaps the C&PD were replaced by compound catenary in 1963 or '64! On top > of everything else, simplified catenary may look simpler, but it may be > more difficult to model, since the auxiliary and trolley wire of compound > catenary can be soldered together on the bench and then "hung" from support > wires (through the gap between aux and trolley wire) until soldered into > place. The simplified catenary requires that the support wires be soldered > directly to the top of the trolley wire! In addition, simplified catenary > had bends in the support wire to make sure that the support wires did not > get hooked by the pantograph on curves. This is gonna be fun! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 13:45:47 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Greg sez: >The line poles used in the >original electrification were round, not the girders used in later >construction. Each time more was constructed better and cheaper methods were >found. Absolutely! Thus all of my catenary has girder poles. Additionally, most of the C&PD has cantilever style poles, while the A&S has bridge poles. The area in Columbia is fascinating with bridges over 3 tracks also holding a cantilever over and additional 2 tracks...Wilmington Station had some similar structures. >At least PRR did not use triangular catenary with two "messengers" like the >NH!! Indeed! Except of course that in my review of PRR catenary, I did find a section of V-shaped catenary that STRONGLY resembles the NH wire with an open top in photos of the mainline near GAP! In addition, it turns out that "box" catenary structures were used to hold the wires near turnouts and in sectionalization breaks, where two parallel or nearly so sets of wires were held by horizontal wires side to side, vertical wires and a set of cross wires! Lots of wires, lots of insulators! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:19:19 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cincinnati Limited 2004 In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Yours truly once rode the line to and from college (Oakland City, Indiana), > usually as far as Washington, the railroad's former shop town. Since this > was > 1967-68, what I rode was a remnant of the old National Limited, by this > date only > an appendage of C&O's G.W. The best stretch of the journey, however, was > over > the Pennsylvania between North Philadelphia and D.C.--of course;-) But the > best > part, at least westbound, was the brief layover at Cincinnati--home to the > most > beautiful train station ever built. > > Richard Wallis > And thus the most beautiful still standing. Sounds like a good time for me to remind all that we'll be banqueting in the rotunda of Cincinnati Union Terminal when the PRRT&HS has its annual meet (the first ever on Lines West) there in 2004. Some say there'll even be an opportunity to ride there behind PRR diesels from Philadelphia. I hope so, but the troops in Cincinnati are going to put on a good convention, and no one should miss it because of a lack of rail transportation. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:19:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Limited 2004 --part1_4a.120c5139.2ac0c337_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Yours truly once rode the line to and from college (Oakland City, Indiana), > usually as far as Washington, the railroad's former shop town. Since this > was > 1967-68, what I rode was a remnant of the old National Limited, by this > date only > an appendage of C&O's G.W. The best stretch of the journey, however, was > over > the Pennsylvania between North Philadelphia and D.C.--of course;-) But the > best > part, at least westbound, was the brief layover at Cincinnati--home to the > most > beautiful train station ever built. > > Richard Wallis > And thus the most beautiful still standing. Sounds like a good time for me to remind all that we'll be banqueting in the rotunda of Cincinnati Union Terminal when the PRRT&HS has its annual meet (the first ever on Lines West) there in 2004. Some say there'll even be an opportunity to ride there behind PRR diesels from Philadelphia. I hope so, but the troops in Cincinnati are going to put on a good convention, and no one should miss it because of a lack of rail transportation. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_4a.120c5139.2ac0c337_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:

Yours truly once rode the line to and from college (Oakland City, Indiana),
usually as far as Washington, the railroad's former shop town. Since this was
1967-68, what I rode was a remnant of the old National Limited, by this date only
an appendage of C&O's G.W. The best stretch of the journey, however, was over
the Pennsylvania between North Philadelphia and D.C.--of course;-) But the best
part, at least westbound, was the brief layover at Cincinnati--home to the most
beautiful train station ever built.

Richard Wallis

And thus the most beautiful still standing. Sounds like a good time for me to remind all that we'll be banqueting in the rotunda of Cincinnati Union Terminal when the PRRT&HS has its annual meet (the first ever on Lines West) there in 2004.

Some say there'll even be an opportunity to ride there behind PRR diesels from Philadelphia. I hope so, but the troops in Cincinnati are going to put on a good convention, and no one should miss it because of a lack of rail transportation.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_4a.120c5139.2ac0c337_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:27:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Limited 2004 From: Jerry Britton On 9/23/02 3:19 PM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > Some say there'll even be an opportunity to ride there behind PRR diesels from > Philadelphia. I hope so, but the troops in Cincinnati are going to put on a > good convention, and no one should miss it because of a lack of rail > transportation. > Bennett, that gives you two years to have a B60b running for the vendors! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Modeling a T1 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:52:57 -0400 Listers, In the PRRT&HS e-news Al Buchan mentions that: MAINLINE MODELER 10/02 *Class T1, How to make a Bowser model spin its wheels, pp 34-35. Anyone have any info on how it is done since I don't think I'll spend $5 for 2 pages of Mainline Modeler Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Limited 2004 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:01:31 +0000 And thus the most beautiful still standing. Yes and no. As you are probably awar eall that is left is the rotunda. The pltaforms are gone to the best of my knowledge and many of the mosaics that graced the base of the half dome are now on the walls of the Cincinatti airport. So like so many remaining structures, "It ain't what it used to be". > In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Yours truly once rode the line to and from college (Oakland City, Indiana), > > usually as far as Washington, the railroad's former shop town. Since this > > was > > 1967-68, what I rode was a remnant of the old National Limited, by this > > date only > > an appendage of C&O's G.W. The best stretch of the journey, however, was > > over > > the Pennsylvania between North Philadelphia and D.C.--of course;-) But the > > best > > part, at least westbound, was the brief layover at Cincinnati--home to the > > most > > beautiful train station ever built. > > > > Richard Wallis > > > > Sounds like a good time for me > to remind all that we'll be banqueting in the rotunda of Cincinnati Union > Terminal when the PRRT&HS has its annual meet (the first ever on Lines West) > there in 2004. > > Some say there'll even be an opportunity to ride there behind PRR diesels > from Philadelphia. I hope so, but the troops in Cincinnati are going to put > on a good convention, and no one should miss it because of a lack of rail > transportation. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:57:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers --part1_133.14c30275.2ac0da4e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris hold on to your money mine is gone. It is somewhat complex using nine volt batteries and a timing mechanism in the tender. Only the rear drivers slip unlike the prototype. I find it sad that this was all this could come up with for an article and he found someone to publish it. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_133.14c30275.2ac0da4e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris hold on to your money mine is gone. It is somewhat complex using nine volt batteries and a timing mechanism in the tender. Only the rear drivers slip unlike the prototype.
I find it sad that this was all this could come up with for an article and he found someone to publish it.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_133.14c30275.2ac0da4e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cincinnati Limited 2004 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:57:33 -0500 You are basically correct. However, the tower which controlled the terminal interlocking is still there. It's now a RR club with its model board intact. The board room of the Cincinnati Union Terminal Company, which actually ran the station for its shareholders, is intact with all its Art Deco furniture. We may be lucky enough to get into the area which shows how the dome was actually constructed. Although it is now a VFW hall, the Norwood Ohio station in suburban Cincinnati still exists with its platforms crumbling. The fascinating floodwall is still there. The tunnels for the still born subway still exist. The PRR tunnel portal modeled by Alexander can still be seen from the expressway. And there is plenty of railfanning to be done with the still very active (albeit non-PRR heritage) Queensgate hump yard. And hopefully, the convention will attract Cincinnatians who were familiar with the PRR and want to share their experiences with us, that would never think of attending the convention back east. So the Society as a whole will be richer for holding the convention in a Lines West location. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 3:02 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; RickTipton@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Limited 2004 And thus the most beautiful still standing. Yes and no. As you are probably awar eall that is left is the rotunda. The pltaforms are gone to the best of my knowledge and many of the mosaics that graced the base of the half dome are now on the walls of the Cincinatti airport. So like so many remaining structures, "It ain't what it used to be". > In a message dated 9/17/02 4:08:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Yours truly once rode the line to and from college (Oakland City, Indiana), > > usually as far as Washington, the railroad's former shop town. Since this > > was > > 1967-68, what I rode was a remnant of the old National Limited, by this > > date only > > an appendage of C&O's G.W. The best stretch of the journey, however, was > > over > > the Pennsylvania between North Philadelphia and D.C.--of course;-) But the > > best > > part, at least westbound, was the brief layover at Cincinnati--home to the > > most > > beautiful train station ever built. > > > > Richard Wallis > > > > Sounds like a good time for me > to remind all that we'll be banqueting in the rotunda of Cincinnati Union > Terminal when the PRRT&HS has its annual meet (the first ever on Lines West) > there in 2004. > > Some say there'll even be an opportunity to ride there behind PRR diesels > from Philadelphia. I hope so, but the troops in Cincinnati are going to put > on a good convention, and no one should miss it because of a lack of rail > transportation. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:06:32 -0400 Guys: Before I "Cat-erized" my layout the first time, I undertook a photo study of the PRR system. After several days of photos and sketches, I came to the conclusion that unless I was trying to model a very particular scene of a well know location, it really didn't matter what I used for catenary. Hardly anyone knows what any given stretch of catenary looks like unless they have a particular location photo, and even then, it could change in just 100 yards. I decided to build a plausible looking cat system that was workable, easy to construct and had PRR charm. (with that criteria, I got it built) >From several feet away, its hard for a viewer to tell if your poles are round, "H" shaped or square in cross section. The EFFECT of overhead is what makes the scene. The more wire, the better!!! Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types > Greg sez: > >The line poles used in the > >original electrification were round, not the girders used in later > >construction. Each time more was constructed better and cheaper methods were > >found. > > Absolutely! Thus all of my catenary has girder poles. Additionally, most > of the C&PD has cantilever style poles, while the A&S has bridge poles. > The area in Columbia is fascinating with bridges over 3 tracks also holding > a cantilever over and additional 2 tracks...Wilmington Station had some > similar structures. > > >At least PRR did not use triangular catenary with two "messengers" like the > >NH!! > > Indeed! Except of course that in my review of PRR catenary, I did find a > section of V-shaped catenary that STRONGLY resembles the NH wire with an > open top in photos of the mainline near GAP! In addition, it turns out > that "box" catenary structures were used to hold the wires near turnouts > and in sectionalization breaks, where two parallel or nearly so sets of > wires were held by horizontal wires side to side, vertical wires and a set > of cross wires! Lots of wires, lots of insulators! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:15:24 +0000 AMEN! > Guys: > > Before I "Cat-erized" my layout the first time, I undertook a photo study of > the PRR system. After several days of photos and sketches, I came to the > conclusion that unless I was trying to model a very particular scene of a > well know location, it really didn't matter what I used for catenary. > Hardly anyone knows what any given stretch of catenary looks like unless > they have a particular location photo, and even then, it could change in > just 100 yards. I decided to build a plausible looking cat system that was > workable, easy to construct and had PRR charm. (with that criteria, I got > it built) > > From several feet away, its hard for a viewer to tell if your poles are > round, "H" shaped or square in cross section. The EFFECT of overhead is > what makes the scene. The more wire, the better!!! > > Lew Matt > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:45 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types > > > > Greg sez: > > >The line poles used in the > > >original electrification were round, not the girders used in later > > >construction. Each time more was constructed better and cheaper methods > were > > >found. > > > > Absolutely! Thus all of my catenary has girder poles. Additionally, most > > of the C&PD has cantilever style poles, while the A&S has bridge poles. > > The area in Columbia is fascinating with bridges over 3 tracks also > holding > > a cantilever over and additional 2 tracks...Wilmington Station had some > > similar structures. > > > > >At least PRR did not use triangular catenary with two "messengers" like > the > > >NH!! > > > > Indeed! Except of course that in my review of PRR catenary, I did find a > > section of V-shaped catenary that STRONGLY resembles the NH wire with an > > open top in photos of the mainline near GAP! In addition, it turns out > > that "box" catenary structures were used to hold the wires near turnouts > > and in sectionalization breaks, where two parallel or nearly so sets of > > wires were held by horizontal wires side to side, vertical wires and a set > > of cross wires! Lots of wires, lots of insulators! > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:26:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types I always thought that the curved top wire was the "catenary wire," the next one down (if used) the "messenger wire," which of course supports the "contact wire." John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Bruce......... Good luck on your catenary project. Let me know when you start working on PRR's "Incline Catenary"(which is found on all those sharp turns of the Port Road). I don't know if you have any hair on your head, but once you start on incline catenary...you won't!!! :-) I think only 2 PRR modelers tried to do a incline cat system. It looks tough,but it can be done. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:46:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Limited 2004 In a message dated 9/23/02 4:09:52 PM, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << And hopefully, the convention will attract Cincinnatians who were familiar with the PRR and want to share their experiences with us, that would never think of attending the convention back east. So the Society as a whole will be richer for holding the convention in a Lines West location. >> Let me start. My first real job with the Pennsy was in Cincinnati. I was transferred in from an Apprentice position in Buffalo on 6/1/61 and was promoted out to Indianapolis on 11/1/62 (I am using notes, my memory isn't that good any more). While the trains and operating types were at the station, the administrative offices were downtown in the Swift Building, 230 East 9th Street. I believe this building is now the hq for the public school system. It is located, IIRC, sort of around the corner from the stadium that was built downtown what, in the late 70s? There was a freight house near the river and the PRR stored old, old stuff there. I've always wondered what happened to the company reords/material that most have been forgotten in the old storage facilities. The Ohio River flooded in 1936 and, whenever I needed an old file (1945 to 1955) and it couldn't be found, the answer always was, "It must have gone down the river in '36." If it is your first time to Cincinnati, be sure to have someone show you the high water mark on the telephone building. Speaking of records, it was in Cincinnati that I first began to initiate and handle correspondence that actually became part of files. I was introduced to a couple of conventions that must confuse some collectors of Pennsy records. There was a period, 10 - 20 years, when internal correspondence was addressed to recipients only by their three initials and never by name. Two or three page letters/memos were NEVER stapled or paper clipped but the pages held together with a straight pin. Finally, I recall an interchange with the Leaky and Nasty in their yard (Decourcy Yard?) on the Kentucky side of the Ohio. I used to take an afternoon off now and then and go out and "play" trains. I remember riding a yard engine pulling a draft to drop off at the L&N and having the engineer stop while going across a one track (as I remember it) bridge at a wooden shack, probably a 'phone shack, on the side of the bridge. He stopped at the shack and told me it was a toll gate and that I had to pay a nickel toll so the draft could continue. College boys were fair game. I flipped a nickel in the shed and we continued. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:09:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/23/02 4:04:16 PM Central Daylight Time, RBurg74133@aol.com writes: <> I found it pathetic to see it published in the only magazine I bother to subscribe to. Perpetuates certain myths. Not that the T1 didn't slip occasionally. OTOH, so did I-1s, Sante Fe Texas types, UP 4-12-2s and other engines where a combination of grade, weather, load, wheelbase, trackwork and engineer skill level combined to make it so. Bob Zoeller Another SPF for 50+ years ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:42:29 -0700 John and all, This is correct. The term cantenary refers to the curve, which is known as a cantenary sag, and is described in advanced trigonometry using hyberbolic sines and cosines (sinh and cosh). Basically this is the curve that a member will follow due to the effects of gravity, mass, material properties and shape. I really don't want to go any further, since it will involve digging out my old structural analysis texts, and looking up obscure and weird fourth-order integrals... :-( Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:26:59 -0400 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > I always thought that the curved top wire was the > "catenary wire," > the next one down (if used) the "messenger wire," which > of course > supports the "contact wire." > > John Bobsin > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR catenary types Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 20:58:41 -0400 Gregg and list- Keep in mind that the initial round poles used on the initial 1915-16 project of Broad Street Station to Paoli were tapered. They look as if they are 3-4 sections of different pole mounted together. The section above enlarges to the section below. Also, getting to Bruce's comments on insulators. The most critical component to modeling catenary is the insulators. They are shaped with a compound curve across the top and straight edged across the bottom. They also have a ring type structure on the inside. If catenary is the project to do, then I think the insulators are the icing on the cake. I recently contacted model memories to have them send me an insulator. I am interested to see the detail. Years ago, modelers would use jewelry beads for insulators. That just doesn't cut it. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:29 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com; Bruce F. Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Bruce, A further complication is that PRR catenary was constructed in at least three distinct phases The first phase was the electrification of the Philadelphia Terminal area and suburban lines, including the Main Line to Paoli prior to World War I. In the early 1930's electrification was extended to New York and Wilmington. And in the mid-1930's the final extensions were made to Harrisburg and Wassdhington, along with several freight only lines like the A&S and the Jamesburg Branch in NJ. The lije poles used in the original electrification were round, not the girders used in later construction. Each time more was constructed better and cheaper methods were found. At least PRR did not use triangular catenary with two "messengers" like the NH!! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR catenary types > Howdy y'all, > > The discussion on modeling PRR catenary over the past couple of weeks has > really gotten me interested in this (and a good thing too as I have MILES > of electrified territory to model!). One thing I realized pretty > quickly...all PRR catenary was NOT the same!! > > I had heard that the C&PD and A&S did not have the same "compound" catenary > as did the passenger main lines. Compound catenary consists of the > gracefully arcing messenger wire, a fairly level "auxiliary" wire and just > below the auxilary wire, the contact or "trolley" wire. The simplified > catenary on the C&PD and A&S consisted of just the messenger and trolley > wires. This is confirmed in the Keystone, Volume 29, #4 (Winter 1996). > Interestingly, a quick perusal of photogrpahs indicates that "simplified" > catenary appears in many locations, system wide, where slow speeds might be > the rule, such as enginehouse areas and freight only lines, such as the > Grey's Ferry branch, the B1 track at Harrisburg, etc... To further > confound the issue, it appears that the simplified catentry on the A&S and > perhaps the C&PD were replaced by compound catenary in 1963 or '64! On top > of everything else, simplified catenary may look simpler, but it may be > more difficult to model, since the auxiliary and trolley wire of compound > catenary can be soldered together on the bench and then "hung" from support > wires (through the gap between aux and trolley wire) until soldered into > place. The simplified catenary requires that the support wires be soldered > directly to the top of the trolley wire! In addition, simplified catenary > had bends in the support wire to make sure that the support wires did not > get hooked by the pantograph on curves. This is gonna be fun! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:46:37 -0500 Previously-- > > < he > found someone to publish it. >> > and > > I found it pathetic to see it published in the only magazine I bother to > subscribe to. > Perpetuates certain myths. > Hmmm. I guess different opinions are part of what makes each of us unique. Haven't seen the article yet, but I know the author and the model well. No, it doesn't dispell the slipping myth. But it is a wonderful example of modeling craftmanship and mechanical ingenuity. In years past the author received a Model of the Month Award from Model Railroader (not the T1) and had published an article on how to build a decent, good running PRR E6. Rather than this being all he "could come up with for an article", after creating the model he thought it might be of interest to other modelers. By the way, like all of his engines, the T1 is an excellent, quiet runner. No doubt this article will be his last. At age 90, he has finally disassembled his layout. Steve Hoxie Also an SPF for 50+ years ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:39:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: Cat Insulators (was RE: [PRR] PRR catenary types) GregV asks: >> I recently contacted model memories to have them send me an insulator. I am >> interested to see the detail. Years ago, modelers would use jewelry beads >> for insulators. That just doesn't cut it. Keith responds: >Unless MM has changed their design you will not be happy with their >insulators. > >Is there a measured drawing of one? Or does someone have one that they >can take some measurements from? Model Memories insulators are better than craft beads, but not by a lot. They have two types - one is cast for the catenary wires and has a disk shape. The insulators supplied for the power line attachments are beads. Drawings of the insulators appeared in the Keystone, volume 29 #4 and Volume 30 #1 in the articles on catenary. Someone with some lathe skills could make a master and easily cast their own. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:02:23 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types > This is correct. The term cantenary Catenary. > refers to the curve, which is known as a cantenary Catenary, from the latin, 'catena' a chain. (The Romans built suspension bridges, with chain as the tension member....) > sag, and is described in advanced trigonometry using > hyberbolic sines and cosines (sinh and cosh). Basically > this is the curve that a member will follow due to the > effects of gravity, mass, material properties and shape. yep.... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:11:52 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types > Good luck on your catenary project. Let me know when you start > working on PRR's "Incline Catenary"(which is found on all those sharp > turns of the Port Road). 'Catenary' was developed across roads, eg NH had 'Inclined catenary', where applicable. Inclned is particularly suited to crooked railroads (eg Port Road). Different styles represented evolution in design techniques, applications etc. They are writ up in (ferinstance) AIEE proceedings of the time. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:09:36 -0500 There are several video tapes available which show the T1 slipping. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hoxie [mailto:steveh@dotstar.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 10:47 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Previously-- > > < he > found someone to publish it. >> > and > > I found it pathetic to see it published in the only magazine I bother to > subscribe to. > Perpetuates certain myths. > Hmmm. I guess different opinions are part of what makes each of us unique. Haven't seen the article yet, but I know the author and the model well. No, it doesn't dispell the slipping myth. But it is a wonderful example of modeling craftmanship and mechanical ingenuity. In years past the author received a Model of the Month Award from Model Railroader (not the T1) and had published an article on how to build a decent, good running PRR E6. Rather than this being all he "could come up with for an article", after creating the model he thought it might be of interest to other modelers. By the way, like all of his engines, the T1 is an excellent, quiet runner. No doubt this article will be his last. At age 90, he has finally disassembled his layout. Steve Hoxie Also an SPF for 50+ years ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:21:19 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types >>At least PRR did not use triangular catenary with two >>"messengers" like the NH!! This was used on the earliest work. It turned out to be problematical and overdesigned, not used above Stamford. (and, IIR, all gone, or nearly so...) > Indeed! Except of course that in my review of PRR catenary, I did find a > section of V-shaped catenary that STRONGLY resembles the NH wire with an > open top in photos of the mainline near GAP! In addition, it turns out > that "box" catenary structures were used to hold the wires near turnouts > and in sectionalization breaks, where two parallel or nearly so sets of > wires were held by horizontal wires side to side, vertical wires and a set > of cross wires! Lots of wires, lots of insulators! best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] T1s, and slipping Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:59:40 -0400 Steve Hoxie wrote: > Hmmm. I guess different opinions are part of what makes each of us unique. Hear, hear, Steve! > No, it doesn't dispell the slipping myth. Myth? It's a myth that the T1's were prone to slipping? Interesting. Also a myth that they were notorious smokers? ;<) I've read that not only were they prone to slipping while starting (which makes sense, given the amount of power being applied to four large-diametered drivers by each pair of cylinders) but in certain conditions, a set of drivers could also begin slipping wildly at speed. Anyone care to comment? Speaking of slipping, back around the turn of the last century there was a type of locomotive developed in the UK by the London & Northwestern called the "Webb Compound", developed by the CMO of that railroad. Memory fails, but I believe it had two driven axles, the rearward drivers powered by the high pressure cylinders connected via side-rods, but the forward axle was powered by a large single low-pressure cylinder via an inside-connection to the axle crank. There was no direct connection between the two sets of drivers. This lead to 'dead center' problems at times as apparently the Brits didn't quarter the rear drivers, and I've read that sometimes the engines had to be "pried" off dead center via a large pinch bar and a lot of sweat on the part of the fireman and anyone else who could help. Not only that, but I've also read that it was possible to also get both sets of drivers into a wild slip *in opposite directions* while attempting a start from this dead center position without benefit of prying, first. Needless to say, the Webb Compounds weren't pursued as a means of motive power... -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:17:11 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Transfers to DeCoursey (Cincinnati) In a message dated 9/24/02 1:15:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Finally, I recall an interchange with the Leaky and Nasty in their yard > (Decourcy Yard?) on the Kentucky side of the Ohio. I used to take an > afternoon off now and then and go out and "play" trains. I remember riding > a > yard engine pulling a draft to drop off at the L&N and having the engineer > stop while going across a one track (as I remember it) bridge at a wooden > shack, probably a 'phone shack, on the side of the bridge. He stopped at > the > shack and told me it was a toll gate and that I had to pay a nickel toll so > > the draft could continue. College boys were fair game. I flipped a nickel > in > the shed and we continued. LOL - college boys were always been fair game. You have reminded me of two research subjects: 1. The Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, a railroad bridge from the L&N in Kentucky to the Pennsy at Pearl Street in Cincinnati. Original one (1872) was a lengthened version of the Steubenville bridge (1863?) -- betrays the PRR or Lines West hand in both of them. 2. DeCoursey Yard, a little south into Kentucky on the L&N (former Kentucky Central) line to Corbin and Knoxville. DeCoursey handled masses of hoppers (coal moved north prior to the 60's), but also what merchandise traffic was routed via the Kentucky Central to Atlanta and points south. Most transfers from Cincinnati railroads to L&N came to DeCoursey, though only PRR and N&W (and later DT&I running on PRR trackage rights) used the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge on downtown Cincinnati's east edge. The rest of them used the "C&O" bridge, from downtown's west edge and all the other railroads, which had yards over there in the Mill Creek Valley (B&O, C&O, Erie, NYC, SOU). Very recently, I've been studying slides of DeCoursey in the 50's, left behind by my late friend Jack Fravert. As it happens, I can see NYC steam delivering transfers, but have not yet identified any PRR there. But I'll keep looking. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:17:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Transfers to DeCoursey (Cincinnati) --part1_15c.14205348.2ac1cde7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/24/02 1:15:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Finally, I recall an interchange with the Leaky and Nasty in their yard > (Decourcy Yard?) on the Kentucky side of the Ohio. I used to take an > afternoon off now and then and go out and "play" trains. I remember riding > a > yard engine pulling a draft to drop off at the L&N and having the engineer > stop while going across a one track (as I remember it) bridge at a wooden > shack, probably a 'phone shack, on the side of the bridge. He stopped at > the > shack and told me it was a toll gate and that I had to pay a nickel toll so > > the draft could continue. College boys were fair game. I flipped a nickel > in > the shed and we continued. LOL - college boys were always been fair game. You have reminded me of two research subjects: 1. The Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, a railroad bridge from the L&N in Kentucky to the Pennsy at Pearl Street in Cincinnati. Original one (1872) was a lengthened version of the Steubenville bridge (1863?) -- betrays the PRR or Lines West hand in both of them. 2. DeCoursey Yard, a little south into Kentucky on the L&N (former Kentucky Central) line to Corbin and Knoxville. DeCoursey handled masses of hoppers (coal moved north prior to the 60's), but also what merchandise traffic was routed via the Kentucky Central to Atlanta and points south. Most transfers from Cincinnati railroads to L&N came to DeCoursey, though only PRR and N&W (and later DT&I running on PRR trackage rights) used the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge on downtown Cincinnati's east edge. The rest of them used the "C&O" bridge, from downtown's west edge and all the other railroads, which had yards over there in the Mill Creek Valley (B&O, C&O, Erie, NYC, SOU). Very recently, I've been studying slides of DeCoursey in the 50's, left behind by my late friend Jack Fravert. As it happens, I can see NYC steam delivering transfers, but have not yet identified any PRR there. But I'll keep looking. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_15c.14205348.2ac1cde7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/24/02 1:15:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

Finally, I recall an interchange with the Leaky and Nasty in their yard
(Decourcy Yard?) on the Kentucky side of the Ohio. I used to take an
afternoon off now and then and go out and "play" trains. I remember riding a
yard engine pulling a draft to drop off at the L&N and having the engineer
stop while going across a one track (as I remember it) bridge at a wooden
shack, probably a 'phone shack, on the side of the bridge. He stopped at the
shack and told me it was a toll gate and that I had to pay a nickel toll so
the draft could continue. College boys were fair game. I flipped a nickel in
the shed and we continued.

LOL - college boys were always been fair game.

You have reminded me of two research subjects:
1. The Newport & Cincinnati Bridge, a railroad bridge from the L&N in Kentucky to the Pennsy at Pearl Street in Cincinnati. Original one (1872) was a lengthened version of the Steubenville bridge (1863?) -- betrays the PRR or Lines West hand in both of them.
2. DeCoursey Yard, a little south into Kentucky on the L&N (former Kentucky Central) line to Corbin and Knoxville. DeCoursey handled masses of hoppers (coal moved north prior to the 60's), but also what merchandise traffic was routed via the Kentucky Central to Atlanta and points south. Most transfers from Cincinnati railroads to L&N came to DeCoursey, though only PRR and N&W (and later DT&I running on PRR trackage rights) used the Newport & Cincinnati Bridge on downtown Cincinnati's east edge. The rest of them used the "C&O" bridge, from downtown's west edge and all the other railroads, which had yards over there in the Mill Creek Valley (B&O, C&O, Erie, NYC, SOU).

Very recently, I've been studying slides of DeCoursey in the 50's, left behind by my late friend Jack Fravert. As it happens, I can see NYC steam delivering transfers, but have not yet identified any PRR there. But I'll keep looking.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_15c.14205348.2ac1cde7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] T1s, and slipping Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:26:08 +0000 There was an article in the Keystone a couple of issues ago that tried to dispel the issue of slipping. the author interviewed several engineers who had run them and they all said pretty much the same thing about starting them and that they weren't slippery if started correctly. You just couldn't yank the throttle and sit back. There was much discussion following the article back and forth for a couple of issues as I recall. I found his case to be pretty convincing. > Steve Hoxie wrote: > > > Hmmm. I guess different opinions are part of what makes each of > us unique. > > > Hear, hear, Steve! > > > No, it doesn't dispell the slipping myth. > > > Myth? > > It's a myth that the T1's were prone to slipping? > > Interesting. Also a myth that they were notorious smokers? ;<) > > I've read that not only were they prone to slipping while starting (which > makes sense, given the amount of power being applied to four > large-diametered drivers by each pair of cylinders) but in certain > conditions, a set of drivers could also begin slipping wildly at speed. > > Anyone care to comment? > > Speaking of slipping, back around the turn of the last century there was a > type of locomotive developed in the UK by the London & Northwestern called > the "Webb Compound", developed by the CMO of that railroad. Memory fails, > but I believe it had two driven axles, the rearward drivers powered by the > high pressure cylinders connected via side-rods, but the forward axle was > powered by a large single low-pressure cylinder via an inside-connection to > the axle crank. There was no direct connection between the two sets of > drivers. This lead to 'dead center' problems at times as apparently the > Brits didn't quarter the rear drivers, and I've read that sometimes the > engines had to be "pried" off dead center via a large pinch bar and a lot of > sweat on the part of the fireman and anyone else who could help. Not only > that, but I've also read that it was possible to also get both sets of > drivers into a wild slip *in opposite directions* while attempting a start > from this dead center position without benefit of prying, first. Needless to > say, the Webb Compounds weren't pursued as a means of motive power... > > -- Doug Drew > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:42:38 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 In a message dated 9/23/02 5:01:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: > And thus the most beautiful still standing. > > Yes and no. As you are probably awar eall that is left is the rotunda. > The > > pltaforms are gone to the best of my knowledge and many of the mosaics that > > graced the base of the half dome are now on the walls of the Cincinatti > airport. So like so many remaining structures, "It ain't what it used to > be". > Maybe I'm being picky, but if all that remained was the rotunda, that would still be monumental (the rotunda is a huge fourth-of-a-sphere room that lies behind the semicircular facade). Actually, IIRC, CUT is all there except for the platforms and the rear (concourse) wing above them -- that land was freed up to became a Southern Railway intermodal yard. True, the mosaics from the demolished concourse wing over the tracks went to Cincinnati's airport and can be seen in the air terminal out there (a sacrilege). I think the demolition left one platform, because Amtrak (and excursions) use it. Anyway, the huge mosaics in the rotunda remain up on the walls, several stories high. Some/most of the mosaics elsewhere (for example, the observation car with obvious NYC tailsign, where departures were posted) are still in place. The shopping arcades, offices, and Tower A, all being behind the rotunda, remain and much of the original decor has been saved and beautifully reconditioned. The huge indoor cab and bus wings of the terminal have become museums; but some original walls and finishes survive on the inside, and all on the outside. The basement has been refitted as another museum (Natural History and IMAX?); I suspect little was lost down there but baggage space. Outside, on the plaza, CUT again looks like the train station I remember as a little boy. From the plaza, of course, you can't see that the platforms out back are gone. You can see that the fountains have been restored, the facade cleaned, and the neon on the clock hands even lights. Inside and out, the graphics put up for the new tenants are done in Aluminum Art Deco, so they harmonize with the original lettering. And there's people (especially families) there all day every day and sometimes in the evening. Perhaps the biggest single compromise in the rotunda is that a one story wall section that may have been ticket windows has become the windows for a food court. Every year at a 12 hour slide show called Summerail, the Cincinnati Railroad Club (CRRC) uses CUT's original theater (not the IMAX, but a 300-seat theater just behind the rotunda on the north side) for slides, and half the rotunda for a railroadiana sales floor. CRRC, who opens their Tower A museum to the public most Saturdays, was one of the organizations who, over the years, have done what is necessary to keep Cincinnati Union Terminal intact. I know for a fact that CRRC has more original furnishings , equipment, and records mothballed than will fit in their display areas, club library, and meeting spaces in CUT, because I've been to the warehouse annex where the extra stuff is kept. I'm sure in 2004 CRRC will open Tower A to us (overlooking all the rail yards of the Mill Creek valley). They will undoubtedly show exhibits on the history and construction of CUT, its railroads, and the predecessor stations. And (if we're lucky) they will take us on a tour of the secret places of the building. As a meeting place for railroaders, CUT has some tremendous advantages. One, it's a museum in itself. Two, it houses several family-oriented museums that will appeal to wives and children. Three, a variety of food is available onsite. Four, you can watch trains there. Five, there's a good-sized railroad library. Six, there's plenty of space for convention activities, including railroadiana sales. And seven, you can talk to railfans who've been studying the Cincinnati area's railroads for years -- some of them are even ex-Pennsy men. I'm looking forward to the PRRT&HS convention in 2004. CUT is just one of the factors that will make this a convention to remember... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:42:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 --part1_16c.144af201.2ac1d3de_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/23/02 5:01:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: > And thus the most beautiful still standing. > > Yes and no. As you are probably awar eall that is left is the rotunda. > The > > pltaforms are gone to the best of my knowledge and many of the mosaics that > > graced the base of the half dome are now on the walls of the Cincinatti > airport. So like so many remaining structures, "It ain't what it used to > be". > Maybe I'm being picky, but if all that remained was the rotunda, that would still be monumental (the rotunda is a huge fourth-of-a-sphere room that lies behind the semicircular facade). Actually, IIRC, CUT is all there except for the platforms and the rear (concourse) wing above them -- that land was freed up to became a Southern Railway intermodal yard. True, the mosaics from the demolished concourse wing over the tracks went to Cincinnati's airport and can be seen in the air terminal out there (a sacrilege). I think the demolition left one platform, because Amtrak (and excursions) use it. Anyway, the huge mosaics in the rotunda remain up on the walls, several stories high. Some/most of the mosaics elsewhere (for example, the observation car with obvious NYC tailsign, where departures were posted) are still in place. The shopping arcades, offices, and Tower A, all being behind the rotunda, remain and much of the original decor has been saved and beautifully reconditioned. The huge indoor cab and bus wings of the terminal have become museums; but some original walls and finishes survive on the inside, and all on the outside. The basement has been refitted as another museum (Natural History and IMAX?); I suspect little was lost down there but baggage space. Outside, on the plaza, CUT again looks like the train station I remember as a little boy. From the plaza, of course, you can't see that the platforms out back are gone. You can see that the fountains have been restored, the facade cleaned, and the neon on the clock hands even lights. Inside and out, the graphics put up for the new tenants are done in Aluminum Art Deco, so they harmonize with the original lettering. And there's people (especially families) there all day every day and sometimes in the evening. Perhaps the biggest single compromise in the rotunda is that a one story wall section that may have been ticket windows has become the windows for a food court. Every year at a 12 hour slide show called Summerail, the Cincinnati Railroad Club (CRRC) uses CUT's original theater (not the IMAX, but a 300-seat theater just behind the rotunda on the north side) for slides, and half the rotunda for a railroadiana sales floor. CRRC, who opens their Tower A museum to the public most Saturdays, was one of the organizations who, over the years, have done what is necessary to keep Cincinnati Union Terminal intact. I know for a fact that CRRC has more original furnishings , equipment, and records mothballed than will fit in their display areas, club library, and meeting spaces in CUT, because I've been to the warehouse annex where the extra stuff is kept. I'm sure in 2004 CRRC will open Tower A to us (overlooking all the rail yards of the Mill Creek valley). They will undoubtedly show exhibits on the history and construction of CUT, its railroads, and the predecessor stations. And (if we're lucky) they will take us on a tour of the secret places of the building. As a meeting place for railroaders, CUT has some tremendous advantages. One, it's a museum in itself. Two, it houses several family-oriented museums that will appeal to wives and children. Three, a variety of food is available onsite. Four, you can watch trains there. Five, there's a good-sized railroad library. Six, there's plenty of space for convention activities, including railroadiana sales. And seven, you can talk to railfans who've been studying the Cincinnati area's railroads for years -- some of them are even ex-Pennsy men. I'm looking forward to the PRRT&HS convention in 2004. CUT is just one of the factors that will make this a convention to remember... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_16c.144af201.2ac1d3de_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/23/02 5:01:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes:

And thus the most beautiful still standing.

Yes and no. As you are probably awar eall that is left is the rotunda. The

pltaforms are gone to the best of my knowledge and many of the mosaics that
graced the base of the half dome are now on the walls of the Cincinatti
airport. So like so many remaining structures, "It ain't what it used to
be".

Maybe I'm being picky, but if all that remained was the rotunda, that would still be monumental (the rotunda is a huge fourth-of-a-sphere room that lies behind the semicircular facade). Actually, IIRC, CUT is all there except for the platforms and the rear (concourse) wing above them -- that land was freed up to became a Southern Railway intermodal yard. True, the mosaics from the demolished concourse wing over the tracks went to Cincinnati's airport and can be seen in the air terminal out there (a sacrilege). I think the demolition left one platform, because Amtrak (and excursions) use it.

Anyway, the huge mosaics in the rotunda remain up on the walls, several stories high. Some/most of the mosaics elsewhere (for example, the observation car with obvious NYC tailsign, where departures were posted) are still in place. The shopping arcades, offices, and Tower A, all being behind the rotunda, remain and much of the original decor has been saved and beautifully reconditioned. The huge indoor cab and bus wings of the terminal have become museums; but some original walls and finishes survive on the inside, and all on the outside. The basement has been refitted as another museum (Natural History and IMAX?); I suspect little was lost down there but baggage space.

Outside, on the plaza, CUT again looks like the train station I remember as a little boy. From the plaza, of course, you can't see that the platforms out back are gone. You can see that the fountains have been restored, the facade cleaned, and the neon on the clock hands even lights. Inside and out, the graphics put up for the new tenants are done in Aluminum Art Deco, so they harmonize with the original lettering. And there's people (especially families) there all day every day and sometimes in the evening. Perhaps the biggest single compromise in the rotunda is that a one story wall section that may have been ticket windows has become the windows for a food court.

Every year at a 12 hour slide show called Summerail, the Cincinnati Railroad Club (CRRC) uses CUT's original theater (not the IMAX, but a 300-seat theater just behind the rotunda on the north side) for slides, and half the rotunda for a railroadiana sales floor. CRRC, who opens their Tower A museum to the public most Saturdays, was one of the organizations who, over the years, have done what is necessary to keep Cincinnati Union Terminal intact. I know for a fact that CRRC has more original furnishings , equipment, and records mothballed than will fit in their display areas, club library, and meeting spaces in CUT, because I've been to the warehouse annex where the extra stuff is kept.

I'm sure in 2004 CRRC will open Tower A to us (overlooking all the rail yards of the Mill Creek valley). They will undoubtedly show exhibits on the history and construction of CUT, its railroads, and the predecessor stations. And (if we're lucky) they will take us on a tour of the secret places of the building.

As a meeting place for railroaders, CUT has some tremendous advantages. One, it's a museum in itself. Two, it houses several family-oriented museums that will appeal to wives and children. Three, a variety of food is available onsite. Four, you can watch trains there. Five, there's a good-sized railroad library. Six, there's plenty of space for convention activities, including railroadiana sales. And seven, you can talk to railfans who've been studying the Cincinnati area's railroads for years -- some of them are even ex-Pennsy men.

I'm looking forward to the PRRT&HS convention in 2004. CUT is just one of the factors that will make this a convention to remember...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_16c.144af201.2ac1d3de_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:42:39 -0400 Is it possible for a posting of the video titles/Production shops offering T1 slippage? Without any research, I'm reluctant to ask, were both driver sets (aren't these termed "Engines") susceptible to slippage? Did the engineer have two throttles, one for each set? The T1 has gotten obvious coverage on this list, but if I am not mistaken, not definitive operating scenario has been discussed here. Does the Keystone cover this subject? Which edition(s)? Pentrex offers a title, "Steam Across America" 2-tape set put out in the early '90s which has the UP 3961 on the Clinchfield. The locomotive eases around a curve and one of its driver sets takes off in a slip. I've seen at the Timonium show a vendor with videos dedicated to depicting relatively current excursion steamers losing traction and slipping, but I do not have titlaes or producers to reference. All I'm saying is that titles to exist. Curiously, Conan Evans Bristow, VA -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 9:10 AM To: 'Steve Hoxie'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers There are several video tapes available which show the T1 slipping. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: [PRR] Re: Cat Insulators Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:48:50 -0400 Bruce wrote: > Drawings of the insulators appeared in the Keystone, volume 29 #4 and > Volume 30 #1 in the articles on catenary. > > Someone with some lathe skills could make a master and easily cast their own. I can vouch for how easy this is. I had to duplicate a lost insulator for a Lambert GG1 pantagraph so I ground a tool (with my Dremel) to match the item's contours. This probably took all of ten minutes to do. Within about 1 hour I had turned dozens of duplicate insulators both in aluminum and nylon, so if anyone needs a spare for their Lambert GG1 .............. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:09:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/24/02 8:29:01 AM Central Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << There are several video tapes available which show the T1 slipping. >> And the other locos I mentioned, as well. No one denies the T1 slipped under certain conditions if not handled correctly. However, I have had some second thoughts. Whereas my I1 and other nonduplex model locos will slip prototypically under load or on grade or curve, by itself I admit that slipping of just ONE set of drivers on a model T1 might not occur by itself. I still haven't finished mine yet so can't test it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:27:36 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] T1s, and slipping Guys: Steam is not my strong suit, but recently I've had occasion to dig into the files at Hagley for a related research project, and I've ended up reading chapter and verse on this issue. I have to report that the evidence in the surviving records of the PRR Chief of Motive Power seems clear: -- "The T1s were slippery:" This was documented over and over again in black and white. Although some skilled enginemen were able to compensate and reduce this tendency to some extent (as noted in the Keystone article, which bore what might be termed a revisionist/apologist tone), evidence seems to point to the fact that for the majority of crews, train assignments, loadings, and weather conditions, this tendency persisted throughout the entire and very short life of this class. It was a design deficiency and it was Baldwin's design deficiency. PRR's culpability lay in not insisting that the fault be fixed before launching into fleet production. Not that people didn't notice: noting this and numerous other problems with the T1s, at least one PRR official tried to reduce the T1 production orders by at least 20 locomotives (and correpsondingly increase PRR's orders for diesels) because he saw how poorly the T1s were performing when compared to the E7s. By the time he inquired, he was told, the material to construct them had already been ordered and paid for, and thus PRR had ventured past the point of no return and was committed to its decision to buy/build 50 of the class. Unfortunately, slipperiness was among the least of the T1s' problems. High in-shop time and low availability is what really did them in, because they were being compared side-by-side with the E7s, which were running like Swiss watches with something like 95 percent availability. The technology was just not advanced enough to give the T1s a chance -- they needed the split-engine, four-cylinder duplex design to reduce the pounding on the rail, but that meant a higher first cost and more machinery to maintain (and contributed to the slipperiness); they needed poppet valves to get more work out of the steam (after finding dramatic results with the experimentally equipped K4 5399), yet the devices were temperamental. PRR found that the streamlining not only hampered maintenance access to the guts of the T1s (and other streamlined steam engines on its roster as well), but, more than that, it actually discouraged it. In other words, shop forces let maintenance slip on these locomotives rather than do the inconvenient thing and get under the shrouds and do the work they were paid to do. Any under-maintained locomotive will eventually fail in both performance and availability. -- "The T1s were smoky:" Perhaps, but seemingly not because of any inherent combustion inefficiency. From my reading of the records, the main issue was that the combination of a small forward cab window and the shape of the streamlining, combined with firebox girth, limited forward visibility even in clear weather with a clean stack. It didn't take much for that situation to deteriorate from "limited" to "no" forward visibility, and the usual culprit was smoke. Bad coal, inefficient firing due to either human or mechanical reasons, and/or unfavorable wind conditions, all could combine to create more smoke in the wrong places. All of this aside, no one can deny that when all the stars were in alignment, they could fly like the wind. As David P. Morgan wrote, they were the final examples of American steam locomotives that were designed and built to run at more than 100 mph. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper Doug Drew wrote: > > Steve Hoxie wrote: > > > Hmmm. I guess different opinions are part of what makes each of > us unique. > > > Hear, hear, Steve! > > > No, it doesn't dispell the slipping myth. > > > Myth? > > It's a myth that the T1's were prone to slipping? > > Interesting. Also a myth that they were notorious smokers? ;<) > > I've read that not only were they prone to slipping while starting (which > makes sense, given the amount of power being applied to four > large-diametered drivers by each pair of cylinders) but in certain > conditions, a set of drivers could also begin slipping wildly at speed. > > Anyone care to comment? > > Speaking of slipping, back around the turn of the last century there was a > type of locomotive developed in the UK by the London & Northwestern called > the "Webb Compound", developed by the CMO of that railroad. Memory fails, > but I believe it had two driven axles, the rearward drivers powered by the > high pressure cylinders connected via side-rods, but the forward axle was > powered by a large single low-pressure cylinder via an inside-connection to > the axle crank. There was no direct connection between the two sets of > drivers. This lead to 'dead center' problems at times as apparently the > Brits didn't quarter the rear drivers, and I've read that sometimes the > engines had to be "pried" off dead center via a large pinch bar and a lot of > sweat on the part of the fireman and anyone else who could help. Not only > that, but I've also read that it was possible to also get both sets of > drivers into a wild slip *in opposite directions* while attempting a start > from this dead center position without benefit of prying, first. Needless to > say, the Webb Compounds weren't pursued as a means of motive power... > > -- Doug Drew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:44:37 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Bob sez: >And the other locos I mentioned, as well. No one denies the T1 slipped under >certain conditions if not handled correctly. However, I have had some second >thoughts. Whereas my I1 and other nonduplex model locos will slip >prototypically under load or on grade or curve, by itself I admit that >slipping of just ONE set of drivers on a model T1 might not occur by itself. >I still haven't finished mine yet so can't test it. I mentioned this a lonnnnnnng time ago...here's the plan for DCC...equip the loco with 2 decoders, preferable a sound decoder on the front "engine". Set the decoders up with different momentum responses (more momentum on the rear engine). Any heavy handed throttle movements will cause the front engine to start first, initiating a slip, and with the sound decoder, the sound of a slip!! BTW, its not the the T1 didn't slip, its that it didn't slip any more than any other loco if handled properly. Apparently the prototypes did occaisionally experience weird high speed slips, but these were uncommon and were not a problem with the production engines...as with everything historical primary sources should be used. Many secondary sources report the T1 as "slippery". The Keystone's recent T1 issue with its interviews of T1 enginemen should be used as a primary source that discredits much of the blather from secondary sources! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] T1s, and slipping Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:08:04 -0400 Thanks, Dan. As to the smokiness of the T1, I don't know how bad they were once underway, but apparently when starting they exhibited what Lucius Beebe termed "burning-of-Rome smoke effects". There's a dilly of a shot in that otherwise mediocre book "Rails to Pittsburgh" which demonstrates how bad a T1 could be, in this particular case on the Fort Wayne side of the Pittsburgh station/office building. The caption read something like "The T1's were known to be smokers, but it took some real guts to do this directly below the division headquarters office windows." I submit the engineman may not have had a choice, in the matter. I think there WAS some kind of combustion problem with these engines, at least at a low draft (I believe in the shot I cite, the engine may be backing at low speed). However, given all the other problems the Pennsy had with these engines, this smoke issue probably fell rather low on the scale... They WERE beautiful though, weren't they? -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:34:27 -0500 The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. Despite what everyone says, it was far more prone to slippage than other engines. I realize one can say that the engineer did not handle the engine correctly, because, by definition, if an engine slips, it is not being driven correctly. Another way of stating this is that more skill was required by an engineer to avoid slippage with a T1 than a conventional steam engine. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 10:09 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/24/02 8:29:01 AM Central Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << There are several video tapes available which show the T1 slipping. >> And the other locos I mentioned, as well. No one denies the T1 slipped under certain conditions if not handled correctly. However, I have had some second thoughts. Whereas my I1 and other nonduplex model locos will slip prototypically under load or on grade or curve, by itself I admit that slipping of just ONE set of drivers on a model T1 might not occur by itself. I still haven't finished mine yet so can't test it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:50:58 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers > The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. ...and taping slipping drivers is Much More Fun (and salable) than taping not_slipping drivers... (Or, probably: filming same....) > Despite what everyone says, it was far more prone to slippage than other > engines. That may be. Film footage is a tad selective, tho. > I realize one can say that the engineer did not handle the engine > correctly, because, by definition, if an engine slips, it is not being > driven correctly. Another way of stating this is that more skill was > required by an engineer to avoid slippage with a T1 than a conventional > steam engine. ANY engine slips when applied force exceed friction. Light engines slip eaily. Small numbers of drivers slip easily. High HP (high pressure/large boilers) slip easily. Specifics of control linkage make an engine subject to slippage. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:58:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] T1 Slippage From: Gary Rowe I thought the Keystone article helped to resolve the slippery reputation of the T1. For what it's worth, my Uncle Edgar Rowe was something of an authority on the subject. He had fired on L1s for his father and moved on later into his career as a locomotive foreman, air brake instructor, etc. He knew the Pennsy and he knew its locomotives. In one of my last visits with him at his home in Shamokin Dam before his death I quoted from a PRR book about the slipping issue. Uncle Ed had a laconic personality at times and did not suffer fools easily, nor foolish statements. To the question "Were they slippery, really?" came his gruff rebuttal, "Not if you knew how to run 'me right!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Ore and the PRR List ....... Need help finding an article called "The Number 2 Ore Carrier" about the PRR. I was told it appeared in Trains magazines. Don't know what year or month. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:01:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Harvard Tower On Thu, Sep 19, 2002 at 03:19:00PM -0500, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > In Ohio, near Cleveland. Actually, in Ohio, *IN* Cleveland. Southeast side thereof. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gluckman, Robert [mailto:Robert.Gluckman@usa.xerox.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 2:27 PM > To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: [PRR] Harvard Tower > > > I found a photo of the PRR Harvard tower on > http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/. In what town/state was this tower > located? > > Bob Gluckman > IOC Data Repository/Backup & Disaster Recovery Database > 8*222-2693 > (585) 422-2693 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Mark D. Bej, M.D. bejm@eeg.ccf.org Section of Epilepsy & Sleep Disorders Section of Neurological Computing Department of Neurology Phone (216) 445-2565 Cleveland Clinic Foundation S-51 Operator (216) 444-2200 bpr 24095 9500 Euclid Ave. Fax (216) 445-6617 (public) Cleveland, Ohio 44195 U.S.A. Voice mail (216) 444-0119 (nonclinical only) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:27:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore and the PRR --part1_18c.ea6b877.2ac24ef0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/24/02 6:10:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > List ....... > > Need help finding an article called "The Number 2 Ore Carrier" > about the PRR. I was told it appeared in Trains magazines. Don't know > what year or month. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson > Hi Dave and List, Trains Magazine September 1962 issue. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_18c.ea6b877.2ac24ef0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/24/02 6:10:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:

List .......

Need help finding an article called "The Number 2 Ore Carrier"
about the PRR. I was told it appeared in Trains magazines. Don't know
what year or month. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Dave Hopson

Hi Dave and List,

Trains Magazine September 1962 issue.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_18c.ea6b877.2ac24ef0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore and the PRR Thanx Andy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now it's time to dig through my Trains magazine collection. Thanks much. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:41:32 -0400 "Years ago, modelers would use jewelry beads for insulators. That just doesn't cut it." I made a fairly presentable insulator from beads and sequins stacked alternately, then dipped in brown enamel paint and allowed to drip dry. (watch for runs and fill ins) They were a lot large for HO, a bit big for O scale and just about right for 1:32. I made about 20 insulators for an O scale photography project and it looked right, as the insulators and overhead were slightly out of focus from the "Scheimflug effect" of the view camera's forward tilted film plane to get the foreground in sharp focus. ( I haven't used THAT word in 30 years) I wouldn't use this technique again, it is just too labor intensive. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; ; "Bruce F. Smith" Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 8:58 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR catenary types > Gregg and list- > > Keep in mind that the initial round poles used on the initial 1915-16 > project of Broad Street Station to Paoli were tapered. They look as if they > are 3-4 sections of different pole mounted together. The section above > enlarges to the section below. > > Also, getting to Bruce's comments on insulators. The most critical > component to modeling catenary is the insulators. They are shaped with a > compound curve across the top and straight edged across the bottom. They > also have a ring type structure on the inside. If catenary is the project > to do, then I think the insulators are the icing on the cake. > > I recently contacted model memories to have them send me an insulator. I am > interested to see the detail. Years ago, modelers would use jewelry beads > for insulators. That just doesn't cut it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 2:29 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com; Bruce F. Smith > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR catenary types > > Bruce, > > A further complication is that PRR catenary was constructed in at least > three distinct phases The first phase was the electrification of the > Philadelphia Terminal area and suburban lines, including the Main Line to > Paoli prior to World War I. In the early 1930's electrification was extended > to New York and Wilmington. And in the mid-1930's the final extensions were > made to Harrisburg and Wassdhington, along with several freight only lines > like the A&S and the Jamesburg Branch in NJ. The lije poles used in the > original electrification were round, not the girders used in later > construction. Each time more was constructed better and cheaper methods were > found. > > At least PRR did not use triangular catenary with two "messengers" like the > NH!! > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 1:41 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR catenary types > > > > Howdy y'all, > > > > The discussion on modeling PRR catenary over the past couple of weeks has > > really gotten me interested in this (and a good thing too as I have MILES > > of electrified territory to model!). One thing I realized pretty > > quickly...all PRR catenary was NOT the same!! > > > > I had heard that the C&PD and A&S did not have the same "compound" > catenary > > as did the passenger main lines. Compound catenary consists of the > > gracefully arcing messenger wire, a fairly level "auxiliary" wire and just > > below the auxilary wire, the contact or "trolley" wire. The simplified > > catenary on the C&PD and A&S consisted of just the messenger and trolley > > wires. This is confirmed in the Keystone, Volume 29, #4 (Winter 1996). > > Interestingly, a quick perusal of photogrpahs indicates that "simplified" > > catenary appears in many locations, system wide, where slow speeds might > be > > the rule, such as enginehouse areas and freight only lines, such as the > > Grey's Ferry branch, the B1 track at Harrisburg, etc... To further > > confound the issue, it appears that the simplified catentry on the A&S and > > perhaps the C&PD were replaced by compound catenary in 1963 or '64! On > top > > of everything else, simplified catenary may look simpler, but it may be > > more difficult to model, since the auxiliary and trolley wire of compound > > catenary can be soldered together on the bench and then "hung" from > support > > wires (through the gap between aux and trolley wire) until soldered into > > place. The simplified catenary requires that the support wires be > soldered > > directly to the top of the trolley wire! In addition, simplified catenary > > had bends in the support wire to make sure that the support wires did not > > get hooked by the pantograph on curves. This is gonna be fun! > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:06:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/24/02 2:44:05 PM Central Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. Despite what everyone says, it was far more prone to slippage than other engines. I realize one can say that the engineer did not handle the engine correctly, because, by definition, if an engine slips, it is not being driven correctly. Another way of stating this is that more skill was required by an engineer to avoid slippage with a T1 than a conventional steam engine. >> No quarrel with what you are saying, except to point out that you will notice that several (not all) of the "slipping" scenes were on complicated switchwork, notably out of St. Louis Union Station. One of the occurences of the I1 slippage I have noted was on the 21st St. crossing of multiple lines out of Chicago Union Station, similarly complicated. T1 slipping may have been more frequent,but it was also by nature more dramatic in some ways, with one engine seemingly having footing and another spinning. I can see how that might be more of a challenge to an engineer in driving by the "seat of his pants", that is the feel of the locomotive. Pennsy got the benefit of not getting the first diesels (which were much more prone to failure than the history books would say) and got the E7 which had a lot of the bugs ironed out and clearly was the way to go. Quite correctly, the T1 never got much further analysis and corrections. I would point out that the great J1 had to have 125 modifications added that C&O neglected to give it prior to construction and which they had made to their 2-10-4 to refine it. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:27:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/24/02 7:13:29 PM, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. Despite what everyone says, it was far more prone to slippage than other engines. I realize one can say that the engineer did not handle the engine correctly, because, by definition, if an engine slips, it is not being driven correctly. Another way of stating this is that more skill was required by an engineer to avoid slippage with a T1 than a conventional steam engine. >> By "slipping," do you mean that an engine actually spins its wheels, much as a teenager burns rubber when he spins the wheels on dad's car? If so, then I remember slipping as an offense for which an engineer could, at least on the Pennsy, receive a disciplinary notice (I forget the form number). The offense was called "making a flat spot," something the MofW folks and the Road Foreman took seriously. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:28:03 -0700 Marty, Slipping does mean letting the drivers spin, either intentionally or unintentionally. However, slipping does not result in a flat spot...that is caused by locking the driver (or other wheel) usually by overzealous application of the brakes and allowing the wheel to slide on the rail, resulting in (at best) a "thump" as the wheel turns. In the worst case the locomotive (or car) cannot be moved until the wheel is either replaced or the tread is built up using welding. Flat spots were major bad news. Slipping usually resulted in rail burns, which were a major problem on double-slip switches, which were usually found in terminals. On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:27:11 EDT LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > By "slipping," do you mean that an engine actually spins > its wheels, much as > a teenager burns rubber when he spins the wheels on dad's > car? > > If so, then I remember slipping as an offense for which > an engineer could, at > least on the Pennsy, receive a disciplinary notice (I > forget the form number). > > The offense was called "making a flat spot," something > the MofW folks and the > Road Foreman took seriously. > > Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:34:22 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: Re: Cat Insulators (was RE: [PRR] PRR catenary types) > From: "Bruce F. Smith" ... >>Is there a measured drawing of one? Or does someone have one that they >>can take some measurements from? >> > > Model Memories insulators are better than craft beads, but not by a lot. > They have two types - one is cast for the catenary wires and has a disk > shape. The insulators supplied for the power line attachments are beads. > > Drawings of the insulators appeared in the Keystone, volume 29 #4 and > Volume 30 #1 in the articles on catenary. > > Someone with some lathe skills could make a master and easily cast their own. Way ahead of you buddy! :) Thanks for the references, i may have those issues somewhere. kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:52:23 -0400 From: Mike Calo Subject: [PRR] Re: Cat Insulator measurements An interested lurker chiming in here... Does the NMRA by chance have a data sheet on catenary and its various components? I long ago got rid of my data sheets and back issues of the NMRA bulletin, otherwise I'd check. Keith B Thompson wrote: > Is there a measured drawing of one? Or does someone have one that they > can take some measurements from? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:42:31 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 In a message dated 9/24/02 3:30:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: > An additional interesting thing about CUT is that all the clocks were > mechanically linked so that they all showed exactly the same time. IIRC, Patrick Rose, president of the Cincinnati Railroad Club, tells that the original 1934 clock installation was electrically driven from a central device, which also had the capability of driving all the clocks to a new time (power outages, Daylight Savings Time, whatever). I think he showed us the driver device (first or second version?) in the suite where the president's office and the boardroom are located. Lots of original woodwork and some original furniture in this suite -- the fashion of the day decreed fine wood veneers on everything. BTW, board members tended to be local vice presidents of the member railroads. Sorry, I haven't yet gotten names of the PRR board members over the years. For those curious about CUT details, I think CRRC has one or more picture books for sale. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR Rochester branch Lokking for Jim Mancuso Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:32:43 -0400 Jim please contact me offline I have some questions relating to the PRR Rochester Branch. I will be away in Atlanta Ga. tomorrow, but I will be back late Thursday. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: Cat Insulators (was RE: [PRR] PRR catenary types) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 00:25:49 -0400 Gents; Could/would someone make available copies of those cat part drawings that are described in Keystone #s 29 & 30????????? Earl Myers Lines West, but what the heck! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith B Thompson" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Cat Insulators (was RE: [PRR] PRR catenary types) > > > > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > > ... > > > >>Is there a measured drawing of one? Or does someone have one that they > >>can take some measurements from? > >> > > > > Model Memories insulators are better than craft beads, but not by a lot. > > They have two types - one is cast for the catenary wires and has a disk > > shape. The insulators supplied for the power line attachments are beads. > > > > Drawings of the insulators appeared in the Keystone, volume 29 #4 and > > Volume 30 #1 in the articles on catenary. > > > > Someone with some lathe skills could make a master and easily cast their own. > > > Way ahead of you buddy! :) Thanks for the references, i may have those > issues somewhere. > > kbt > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Library of Congress - Harrisburg Terminal Drawings Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 02:30:26 -0400 All, I may be telling an oft-told tale but I just found line drawings including details of the Harrisburg PRR Station in the Library of Congress On-Line Catalog. If your browser can handle TIFF's and you have broadband you can download full scale drawings. Don --------------------------------------- Don E. Anderson, Jr. Mailto:andersond@bellsouth.net --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:14:26 -0400 Conan Herrod Rail (services? productions?) Pennsylvania Glory #3 Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Conan Evans [mailto:cevans@onlinesecurities.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 10:43 AM To: TALK PRR- Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Is it possible for a posting of the video titles/Production shops offering T1 slippage? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:24:39 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers It was said that> "slipping does not result in a flat spot...that is caused by locking the driver (or other wheel) usually by overzealous application of the brakes and allowing the wheel to slide on the rail, resulting in (at best) a "thump" as the wheel turns." No but slipping can cause engine burns on the rail surface, which if serious enough can lead to engine burn fractures, which under failure may cause a derailment. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:41:32 -0400 Gents: All this talk about T1 slippage has inspired me to do some "looks only" engineering. I believe that I can get two motors into a brass T1 without too much difficulty. The plan is to use two decoders with two separate addresses. You could then turn up one of the motors upon start up for the slippage effect and after reaching track speed, consist the two decoders on the fly. A lot of work and money for this effect, but wouldn't it be something to see? BTW, the tender is certainly big enough to house two sound decoders and two speakers! Now we're really talking $$$$. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: 'Conan Evans' ; TALK PRR- Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:14 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers > > Conan > > Herrod Rail (services? productions?) Pennsylvania Glory #3 > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Conan Evans [mailto:cevans@onlinesecurities.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 10:43 AM > To: TALK PRR- > Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers > > > Is it possible for a posting of the video titles/Production shops offering > T1 slippage? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 19:34:06 -0400 > >Herrod Rail (services? productions?) Pennsylvania Glory #3 > Herron Rail Services 2016 North Village Avenue Tampa, FL 33612 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:54:58 -0400 Yes but what happens when both Fireman Freds decide to shovel coal at the same time! :) Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Larry Reynolds [mailto:pennsyrr@rcn.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:42 AM To: Chany, Christopher; 'Conan Evans'; TALK PRR- Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers Gents: All this talk about T1 slippage has inspired me to do some "looks only" engineering. I believe that I can get two motors into a brass T1 without too much difficulty. The plan is to use two decoders with two separate addresses. You could then turn up one of the motors upon start up for the slippage effect and after reaching track speed, consist the two decoders on the fly. A lot of work and money for this effect, but wouldn't it be something to see? BTW, the tender is certainly big enough to house two sound decoders and two speakers! Now we're really talking $$$$. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: 'Conan Evans' ; TALK PRR- Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:14 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers > > Conan > > Herrod Rail (services? productions?) Pennsylvania Glory #3 > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Conan Evans [mailto:cevans@onlinesecurities.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 10:43 AM > To: TALK PRR- > Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers > > > Is it possible for a posting of the video titles/Production shops offering > T1 slippage? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:08:02 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Cat Insulator measurements Mike asks: > >Does the NMRA by chance have a data sheet on catenary and its various >components? >I long ago got rid of my data sheets and back issues of the NMRA bulletin, >otherwise I'd check. Go to http://www.nmra.org To save time, the URL for "Standards and RPs" is http://www.nmra.org/standards/consist.html#standards and the relevant standards are S6, S7, S8. I do not believe that the NMRA has standards or RPs governing the "components" of catenary since the design varied between individual railroads. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:17:10 +0000 Slipping does mean letting the drivers spin, either > intentionally or unintentionally. However, slipping does > not result in a flat spot...that is caused by locking the > driver (or other wheel) usually by overzealous application > of the brakes and allowing the wheel to slide on the rail Years ago there was a story about an ATSF engineer who was breaking in an engine whose tires had either been replaced or turned. Apparently they are very soft and the surface work hardens with time to provide tire life. For some reason I can't remember he locked up the brakes and flat spotted the wheels but using his head he found a stretch of track where some weeds provided sufficient lubrication that he spun the drivers for several minutes and smoothed out the flat spots since the tires were still soft on the surface. No one ever knew what had happened but the fireman. > Marty, > > Slipping does mean letting the drivers spin, either > intentionally or unintentionally. However, slipping does > not result in a flat spot...that is caused by locking the > driver (or other wheel) usually by overzealous application > of the brakes and allowing the wheel to slide on the rail, > resulting in (at best) a "thump" as the wheel turns. In the > worst case the locomotive (or car) cannot be moved until > the wheel is either replaced or the tread is built up using > welding. Flat spots were major bad news. > > Slipping usually resulted in rail burns, which were a major > problem on double-slip switches, which were usually found > in terminals. > > On Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:27:11 EDT > LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > > > By "slipping," do you mean that an engine actually spins > > its wheels, much as > > a teenager burns rubber when he spins the wheels on dad's > > car? > > > > If so, then I remember slipping as an offense for which > > an engineer could, at > > least on the Pennsy, receive a disciplinary notice (I > > forget the form number). > > > > The offense was called "making a flat spot," something > > the MofW folks and the > > Road Foreman took seriously. > > > > Regards, Marty > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:21:02 -0500 You are right. Except that given the expense of film, timing, the possibility of seeing only a few trains during one filming session, etc., I do not believe that amateur moving picture takers in that era specifically sought out instances when the T1 slipped. -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:51 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers > The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. ...and taping slipping drivers is Much More Fun (and salable) than taping not_slipping drivers... (Or, probably: filming same....) > Despite what everyone says, it was far more prone to slippage than other > engines. That may be. Film footage is a tad selective, tho. > I realize one can say that the engineer did not handle the engine > correctly, because, by definition, if an engine slips, it is not being > driven correctly. Another way of stating this is that more skill was > required by an engineer to avoid slippage with a T1 than a conventional > steam engine. ANY engine slips when applied force exceed friction. Light engines slip eaily. Small numbers of drivers slip easily. High HP (high pressure/large boilers) slip easily. Specifics of control linkage make an engine subject to slippage. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:40:02 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > You are right. Except that given the expense of film, timing, the > possibility of seeing only a few trains during one filming session, etc., I > do not believe that amateur moving picture takers in that era specifically > sought out instances when the T1 slipped. Film cost little more than a blank VHS tape. (yeah. I'm from the trail end of the film era. 8)>> ...and a tape hold 2 hours & can be reused, so the comparison is iffy.) More to the point: some 'post editing/selection' takes place when the transfer to video takes place. > -----Original Message----- >>The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. > ...and taping slipping drivers is Much More Fun > (and salable) than taping not_slipping drivers... > (Or, probably: filming same....) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Railfest/West Slope Greeting list. Anyone interested in a guided tour of the West Slope early Saturday morning before the fun starts? ----------------Mark L----------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 11:02:33 -0400 "Pennsy got the benefit of not getting the first diesels (which were much more prone to failure than the history books would say) and got the E7 which had a lot of the bugs ironed out and clearly was the way to go. Quite correctly, the T1 never got much further analysis and corrections" I would definitely have to agree to this statement. Their was a technical group that got involved with the nuts and bolts of steam locomotives in the 70's. It was called the Railroad Enthusiast, New York Division, Inc. They published bulletins in regards to many issues. Poppet valves was 1 issue they looked at in detail. Following poppet valves led to the discussion of the T1, poppet valves, differences between type A & B, piston valves vs. poppets, T1's and the factor of adhesion, etc. Those interested should locate The Railroad Enthusiast NY Div. Bulleting Vol. XVIII, No. 7 March 1976, and Vol. XVIII No. 8 April 1976. It is only 6-8 pages, but interesting. Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:05:34 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: [PRR] RailFest Dinner Get-Together Greetings to the groups, Sorry about the cross post but I wanted to get to everyone. If there is interest again this year for a Saturday evening dinner get-together at Hoss's, let me know and I'll make the arrangements. In past years we have set a 6:30 PM time for dinner at the Altoona Hoss's (Valley View Blvd at 7th Street). This Hoss's has a railroad motif in its banquet room. I always look forward to the dinner so let me know. Andrew and I will be working the first shift Saturday morning again for RailFest. Since neither shop is going to be used, we don't know where we'll be. If you see us, please stop and say hi. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:42:17 -0500 Yes, but the tapes were not advertized as ones which illustrate the T1 slipping. And why would one want to focus on such occureneces, unless of course, they observed so much of this phenomena, that to edit out these events would have left very little tape to sell. -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:40 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > You are right. Except that given the expense of film, timing, the > possibility of seeing only a few trains during one filming session, etc., I > do not believe that amateur moving picture takers in that era specifically > sought out instances when the T1 slipped. Film cost little more than a blank VHS tape. (yeah. I'm from the trail end of the film era. 8)>> ...and a tape hold 2 hours & can be reused, so the comparison is iffy.) More to the point: some 'post editing/selection' takes place when the transfer to video takes place. > -----Original Message----- >>The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. > ...and taping slipping drivers is Much More Fun > (and salable) than taping not_slipping drivers... > (Or, probably: filming same....) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:06:58 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > Yes, but the tapes were not advertized as ones which illustrate the T1 > slipping. Slipping is more dramatic. (hint: I distinctly recall tape adverts which say: See engine soandso lose its feet (slip) on a grade.) > And why would one want to focus on such occurrences, Slipping is more dramatic. > unless of course, they observed so much of this phenomena, > that to edit out these events would have left very little > tape to sell. Slipping is more dramatic. 1) These are fan videos (or films) rather than technical studies. 2) _any_ film (video) is, to some extent, a fiction: created by the cameraman/director/editor, and others. 3) Many videos use footage that was shot 'silent' with lok sounds added in production. Consider that some steam operating crews routinely 'make smoke for the fans', blow the whistle for the fans, etc. I'm sure no one intentionally slipped an engine, THAT is risky. And, yes, fans then, as now, sought 'interesting' places to shoot: where the lok would be working hard. Working hard is when slips occur. ===================================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:40 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers > Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: >>You are right. Except that given the expense of film, timing, the >>possibility of seeing only a few trains during one filming session, etc., >> I do not believe that amateur moving picture takers in >> that era specifically sought out instances when the T1 slipped. >> > Film cost little more than a blank VHS tape. > > (yeah. I'm from the trail end of the film era. > 8)>> ...and a tape hold 2 hours & can be reused, > so the comparison is iffy.) > > More to the point: some 'post editing/selection' takes > place when the transfer to video takes place. >>-----Original Message----- >>>The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. >> ...and taping slipping drivers is Much More Fun >> (and salable) than taping not_slipping drivers... >> (Or, probably: filming same....) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:35:23 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] T1s, and slipping Doug Drew wrote: > Steve Hoxie wrote: > > > Hmmm. I guess different opinions are part of what makes each of >us unique. > > >Hear, hear, Steve! > > > No, it doesn't dispell the slipping myth. > > >Myth? > >It's a myth that the T1's were prone to slipping? > >Interesting. Also a myth that they were notorious smokers? ;<) > >I've read that not only were they prone to slipping while starting (which >makes sense, given the amount of power being applied to four >large-diametered drivers by each pair of cylinders) but in certain >conditions, a set of drivers could also begin slipping wildly at speed. > >Anyone care to comment? > >Speaking of slipping, back around the turn of the last century there was a >type of locomotive developed in the UK by the London & Northwestern called >the "Webb Compound", developed by the CMO of that railroad. Memory fails, >but I believe it had two driven axles, the rearward drivers powered by the >high pressure cylinders connected via side-rods, but the forward axle was >powered by a large single low-pressure cylinder via an inside-connection to >the axle crank. There was no direct connection between the two sets of >drivers. This lead to 'dead center' problems at times as apparently the >Brits didn't quarter the rear drivers, and I've read that sometimes the >engines had to be "pried" off dead center via a large pinch bar and a lot of >sweat on the part of the fireman and anyone else who could help. > Yes, this did happen on a few occasions with the Webb 3 cylinder compounds. >Not only >that, but I've also read that it was possible to also get both sets of >drivers into a wild slip *in opposite directions* while attempting a >start >from this dead center position without benefit of prying, first. But this one's an example of wishful thinking on behalf of one of the old time railway enthusiasts that has found its way into several publications over the last 100 years or so. AFAIK no recorded examples of contra wheel spinning were ever recorded ..... pity, though:-) -- Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:36:14 +0100 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] T1s, and slipping (2) To the list, Someone on one of the UK groups is putting around the story that firemen were occasionally 'minced' in the stoker screw of the T1's tender. I was under the impression that this tale had been well and truly rubbished shortly after Roberts repeated it in his Triumph I. Can anyone confirm? -- Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:43:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/25/02 12:50:38 PM Central Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << And why would one want to focus on such occureneces, unless of course, they observed so much of this phenomena, that to edit out these events would have left very little tape to sell. >> Yeah, T1s were slippery, but you're reaching, Marvin :-). The slipping you mention from Glory Years 3 and one near St. Louis in Glory Years 4 are two film examples. OTOH, Glory Years 3 and other tapes have mulitiple shots of T1s with nary a slip and Glory Years 4 has the most extensive video of T1s out of St. Louis and in Southern Illinois I have seen, with only the one slipping example, to my recollection. If I were doing a tape, I would certainly include the slipping because it is interesting, even if, as in GY4, I had plenty of other tape of the T1. Will someone on a chat list 50 years from now conclude from the video evidence of one or two Conrail and UP engines that all diesels in the last 10 years were commonly prone to shootng exhaust flames from unburned fuel? By the way, referring to techniques of the engineers, I can think of the analogy of the Boeing 727 aircraft. A very reliable aircraft. However, it took 3 early fatal crashes (landing short) before they found out they were flying them wrong. In any case the T1 was a beautiful sight at speed and it must have taken a little courage to stand close trackside in southern Illinois to get some of those shots in GY4. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:22:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1 with slipping drivers --part1_102.1b568fac.2ac3830e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about MARK ONE VIDEO Memories of Pennsy Steam (30 minutes). Many shots of the T-1 in motion a few of them slipping at low speed. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_102.1b568fac.2ac3830e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about MARK ONE VIDEO Memories of Pennsy Steam (30 minutes). Many shots of the T-1 in motion a few of them slipping at low speed.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_102.1b568fac.2ac3830e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] T1s, and slipping (2) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:53:48 -0400 John: I can't confirm, but I can tell you that I seriously doubt that this could happen. If memory serves me correctly, the screw is about 6" diameter. This could certainly cut off a foot, and even part of a leg, but having worked with screw conveyors for a good portion off my life, I just can't envision an entire man being drawn into a 6" conveyor. Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: John H. Wright To: 'PRR-Talk' Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] T1s, and slipping (2) > To the list, > Someone on one of the UK groups is putting around the story that firemen > were occasionally 'minced' in the stoker screw of the T1's tender. > I was under the impression that this tale had been well and truly > rubbished shortly after Roberts repeated it in his Triumph I. Can > anyone confirm? > > -- > Regards, > John H. Wright > Washington, England > Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ > http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 19:37:28 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: Re: Cat Insulators (was RE: [PRR] PRR catenary types) Earl Myers wrote: > Gents; > Could/would someone make available copies of those cat part drawings that > are described in Keystone #s 29 & 30????????? > Earl Myers > Lines West, but what the heck! Turns out i did have those issues and had forgotten what great resources they are for cat info. If you are at all interested you should pick them up. I guessing that back issues are still be available from PRRT&HS? I'd scan you a copy but i'm not getting into that one again... kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:24:16 -0500 Several instances of slipping usually one set of drivers, but not the other. -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 7:27 PM To: Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/24/02 7:13:29 PM, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. Despite what everyone says, it was far more prone to slippage than other engines. I realize one can say that the engineer did not handle the engine correctly, because, by definition, if an engine slips, it is not being driven correctly. Another way of stating this is that more skill was required by an engineer to avoid slippage with a T1 than a conventional steam engine. >> By "slipping," do you mean that an engine actually spins its wheels, much as a teenager burns rubber when he spins the wheels on dad's car? If so, then I remember slipping as an offense for which an engineer could, at least on the Pennsy, receive a disciplinary notice (I forget the form number). The offense was called "making a flat spot," something the MofW folks and the Road Foreman took seriously. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:14:02 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Fwd: [PRR] Cincinnati Union Terminal in 2004 In a message dated 9/25/02 9:38:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick.Rose@ae.ge.com writes: > Marvin, > Interesting you should mention the clocks. The original clock system > is something of a pet project of mine. The system is an IBM (yep, the same > one) momentary impulse system, very similar to school systems many of us > knew as kids. The facinating part is that IBM managed to drive several > different clock displays, from regular dial clocks to the 'light-bulb > digital' in the information booth to the one on the face of the rotunda, > all from a single master clock. There were even mixed cycles; some clocks > were on 30 second intervals, some on 60 second (depending on dial diameter > and other factors). There was even a correction circuit to 'catch-up' any > clocks that fell behind. > To date, we have 5 (soon to be 7) original clocks running with their > original motors being driven by a new master clock from American Time & > Signal Co. This was necessary as the original master clock was stolen > shortly after the CUT closed in 1972. It has never surfaced in any estate > auction that I'm aware of, so it's likely still in whoever's basement in > went to then. It's a shame, as it's a georgeous and dramatic piece of > clock-work. If you have the hardback book recently published on the > Terimnal by the CRRC, there's a photo of it in there, pg 112. > If you're at at the next Summerail, maybe we'll run into each other and > can talk further. > Thanks, > Patrick Rose > CRRC > Hi, With 7 days left until we close, your status is: I will be offline from Wednesday night to Monday morning (Sept 30), so there will be no status messages in that interval. Then we close two days later on Wednesday October 2, at 8pm (it will still be Eastern Daylight Time here). Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Thomas von Trott" Subject: [PRR] M&H #91, non-PRR Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:23:42 -0400 Hey folks: Just thought I'd drop everyone a quick, not PRR, but Harrisburg PA related note of interest for Steam buffs. The folks over at the Middletown and Hummelstown were kind enough to allow me to be a guest for a Hydro test of the boiler on their ex-CN 2-6-0 #91 this past Saturday, and I'm happy to report that things went very well, and it is looking very likely that we will see her running in 2003. As far as I know they have not set any firm dates yet to have her in steam, but things are looking real good for a great year for steam in the Harrisburg area next year. We are hoping over at the WGHSEA to have ex-PRR 643 back as well (I'm a member of the crew over there). So I encourage all of you to keep your eyes open for more news (I don't know if there are any M&H people on this list or not, if there are I ask them to pretty please keep us up to date) so we can all go out and support and congradulate them on all their hard work comming to fruitation when 91 is up and running. Tom von Trott _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Robert S Johnson" Subject: [PRR] T 1 Tender Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:11:37 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C26534.55EB8B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A guy I met from California is trying to find out what stripping on the = T 1 tender is correct. Can someone tell me where I could find some = pictures of the engine and tender that show what the stripping should = be? Thanks, Bob Johnson ------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C26534.55EB8B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A guy I met from California is trying = to find out=20 what stripping on the T 1 tender is correct. Can someone tell = me where I could find some pictures of the engine and tender that = show=20 what the stripping should be?

Thanks,

Bob Johnson

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01C26534.55EB8B80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Reed Kosmal" Subject: Re: [PRR] T 1 Tender Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:43:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26538.BF7CB430 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Take a look at this site. It has pictures of a almost completed 1" scale = livesteam T 1. I know the builder and I can assure you that this = locomotive and tender are as close as you get to the original. http://users.rcn.com/borders/woodings/PLS_Shots/ Reed Kosmal ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert S Johnson=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:11 AM Subject: [PRR] T 1 Tender A guy I met from California is trying to find out what stripping on = the T 1 tender is correct. Can someone tell me where I could find some = pictures of the engine and tender that show what the stripping should = be? Thanks, Bob Johnson ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26538.BF7CB430 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Take a look at this site. It has = pictures of a=20 almost completed 1" scale livesteam T 1. I know the builder and I can = assure you=20 that this locomotive and tender are as close as you get to the=20 original.

http://users.rcn.com/borders/woodings/PLS_Shots/
<= /DIV>

Reed Kosmal

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Robert S=20 Johnson

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Thursday, September 26, = 2002 8:11=20 AM

Subject: [PRR] T 1 Tender

A guy I met from California is trying = to find out=20 what stripping on the T 1 tender is correct. Can someone = tell=20 me where I could find some pictures of the engine and tender = that show=20 what the stripping should be?

Thanks,

Bob = Johnson

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C26538.BF7CB430-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:46:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] T 1 Tender In a message dated 9/26/02 7:23:38 AM Central Daylight Time, rosaljo@starpower.net writes: << Can someone tell me where I could find some pictures of the engine and tender that show what the stripping should be? >> Well,you could get a copy of the Winter 2001 Keystone which included a foldout drawing of the T1 and tender. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:12:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] T 1 Tender Bob asks: > A guy I met from California is trying to find out what stripping on >the T 1 tender is correct. Can someone tell me where I could find some >pictures of the engine and tender that show what the stripping should be? > Thanks, Bob Johnson The T1 wore two different tender schemes. The two prototypes originally had a pinstripe with a circle Keystone, similar to the first sharknose diseasel scheme, but the keystone was LARGER. The later scheme dropped the keystone, and had just the pinstripes (a thick one, then 3 or 4 thin ones below that), with the word PENNSYLVANIA above that, and a PRR keystone above that. As has been noted, precise info about this scheme is in the Winter 2001 Keystone. Of copurse, the tender body was DGLE and trucks and underframe were black. I believe excellent color photos of the prototype scheme are available in "Pennsylvania - Standard Railroad of the World Volume 1" by Jeremy F. Plant and Robert J. Yanosey (Morning Sun Books) Online photos of T1s are available on Gary Mittner's site: http://community-1.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA/ (although I can't get the pics to load this AM) Bowser's site has several prototype photos showing the striping: http://www.bowser-trains.com/holocos/t1/t1.htm Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:14:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] T 1 Tender In a message dated 9/26/02 7:49:08 AM Central Daylight Time, reed@kosmal.org writes: << Take a look at this site. It has pictures of a almost completed 1" scale livesteam T 1. I know the builder and I can assure you that this locomotive and tender are as close as you get to the original. >> The striping may or may not be the same for all, but that beautiful model looks to be one of the original two prototypes which included the large Keystone within circle. OK if that is the model in question, but that was not duplicated on the 50 production models. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:15:28 +0000 A front page article in the Chicago Tribune business section today indicates that both the Pennsylvanian and the Three Rivers are proposed by Amtrak to be dropped. They are both losing over $200 per person traveling on them. Does this leave any through passenger service on the former main line? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:22:39 -0500 My conclusions regarding slipping T1 drivers are not based on the video tapes. I think Dan Cupper's remarks on this tape were more than adequate in describing the operating problems associated with these locomotives. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:44 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/25/02 12:50:38 PM Central Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << And why would one want to focus on such occureneces, unless of course, they observed so much of this phenomena, that to edit out these events would have left very little tape to sell. >> Yeah, T1s were slippery, but you're reaching, Marvin :-). The slipping you mention from Glory Years 3 and one near St. Louis in Glory Years 4 are two film examples. OTOH, Glory Years 3 and other tapes have mulitiple shots of T1s with nary a slip and Glory Years 4 has the most extensive video of T1s out of St. Louis and in Southern Illinois I have seen, with only the one slipping example, to my recollection. If I were doing a tape, I would certainly include the slipping because it is interesting, even if, as in GY4, I had plenty of other tape of the T1. Will someone on a chat list 50 years from now conclude from the video evidence of one or two Conrail and UP engines that all diesels in the last 10 years were commonly prone to shootng exhaust flames from unburned fuel? By the way, referring to techniques of the engineers, I can think of the analogy of the Boeing 727 aircraft. A very reliable aircraft. However, it took 3 early fatal crashes (landing short) before they found out they were flying them wrong. In any case the T1 was a beautiful sight at speed and it must have taken a little courage to stand close trackside in southern Illinois to get some of those shots in GY4. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:19:56 -0500 ANY tape on Pennsy steam sells, without the need for dramatic effects. I don't recall seeing the tape advertised as one that emphasized slippng T1 drivers. With regard to the locomotive's tendency to slip, see Dan Cupper's very thorough comments on this very same thread. -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:07 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > Yes, but the tapes were not advertized as ones which illustrate the T1 > slipping. Slipping is more dramatic. (hint: I distinctly recall tape adverts which say: See engine soandso lose its feet (slip) on a grade.) > And why would one want to focus on such occurrences, Slipping is more dramatic. > unless of course, they observed so much of this phenomena, > that to edit out these events would have left very little > tape to sell. Slipping is more dramatic. 1) These are fan videos (or films) rather than technical studies. 2) _any_ film (video) is, to some extent, a fiction: created by the cameraman/director/editor, and others. 3) Many videos use footage that was shot 'silent' with lok sounds added in production. Consider that some steam operating crews routinely 'make smoke for the fans', blow the whistle for the fans, etc. I'm sure no one intentionally slipped an engine, THAT is risky. And, yes, fans then, as now, sought 'interesting' places to shoot: where the lok would be working hard. Working hard is when slips occur. ===================================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:40 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers > Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: >>You are right. Except that given the expense of film, timing, the >>possibility of seeing only a few trains during one filming session, etc., >> I do not believe that amateur moving picture takers in >> that era specifically sought out instances when the T1 slipped. >> > Film cost little more than a blank VHS tape. > > (yeah. I'm from the trail end of the film era. > 8)>> ...and a tape hold 2 hours & can be reused, > so the comparison is iffy.) > > More to the point: some 'post editing/selection' takes > place when the transfer to video takes place. >>-----Original Message----- >>>The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. >> ...and taping slipping drivers is Much More Fun >> (and salable) than taping not_slipping drivers... >> (Or, probably: filming same....) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:24:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR From: Jerry Britton On 9/26/02 9:15 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > A front page article in the Chicago Tribune business section today indicates > that both the Pennsylvanian and the Three Rivers are proposed by Amtrak to be > dropped. They are both losing over $200 per person traveling on them. Does > this leave any through passenger service on the former main line? > $1 says they'll keep one coach on just so they can call it a passenger train...which will enable them to put 19 roadrailers behind it!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:28:41 -0500 Not west of Harrisburg. Aside from the Capital Limited for a short stretch of track west of Pittsburgh. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:15 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR A front page article in the Chicago Tribune business section today indicates that both the Pennsylvanian and the Three Rivers are proposed by Amtrak to be dropped. They are both losing over $200 per person traveling on them. Does this leave any through passenger service on the former main line? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:38:12 -0500 I think AMTRAK's current strategy is to discontinue the hauling freight to offset passenger losses. I think the freight business increased the losses. This may be why these two trains are on the list. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:25 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR On 9/26/02 9:15 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > A front page article in the Chicago Tribune business section today indicates > that both the Pennsylvanian and the Three Rivers are proposed by Amtrak to be > dropped. They are both losing over $200 per person traveling on them. Does > this leave any through passenger service on the former main line? > $1 says they'll keep one coach on just so they can call it a passenger train...which will enable them to put 19 roadrailers behind it!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:56:29 -0400 Listers, Could this be a ploy to get the state (commonwealth) to pay a portion of the bill. Since there big on Philly to Pitt trains. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Cadwell, Marvin L [mailto:cadwelml@bp.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 9:38 AM To: 'Jerry Britton'; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR I think AMTRAK's current strategy is to discontinue the hauling freight to offset passenger losses. I think the freight business increased the losses. This may be why these two trains are on the list. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 8:25 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR On 9/26/02 9:15 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > A front page article in the Chicago Tribune business section today indicates > that both the Pennsylvanian and the Three Rivers are proposed by Amtrak to be > dropped. They are both losing over $200 per person traveling on them. Does > this leave any through passenger service on the former main line? > $1 says they'll keep one coach on just so they can call it a passenger train...which will enable them to put 19 roadrailers behind it!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Ore Train Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:59:21 -0400 Listers, Was watching Clarence Weaver's "The Ore Train" video last night. While I know it is common for the sets of I-1's to have a large tender and a small tender, is there a reason why the first I-1 always has the larger tender? Safety, better to have the second I-1 pushing on a larger (heavier) tender? Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:02:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR In a message dated 9/26/02 8:34:05 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << $1 says they'll keep one coach on just so they can call it a passenger train...which will enable them to put 19 roadrailers behind it!!! >> Press release I skimmed cursorily indicated the express service was generally going to be dropped as a result of the budget cuts. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:02:57 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR Your question displays a very Lines West view of the world. The "Big Red Subway" from NY to DC remains the core of Amtrak's service! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ndbprr@att.net wrote: > A front page article in the Chicago Tribune business section today indicates > that both the Pennsylvanian and the Three Rivers are proposed by Amtrak to be > dropped. They are both losing over $200 per person traveling on them. Does > this leave any through passenger service on the former main line? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:29:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train In a message dated 9/26/02 9:07:12 AM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << is there a reason why the first I-1 always has the larger tender? >> A guess, though partly from dim recesses of memory, but I believe in a doubleheader the nature of the operation results in the lead loco consuming more water. I know there usually seems to be a consistent difference in smoke quantity between double-headed locos, though I must confess I don't remember if that is consistent with the steam consumption. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:33:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR In a message dated 9/26/02 9:07:48 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Your question displays a very Lines West view of the world. The "Big Red Subway" from NY to DC remains the core of Amtrak's service! >> Didn't realize Philadelphia-Pittsburgh was now considered part of Lines West :-). (We'll take it! :-)) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:05:04 -0500 Ah, the provincial East! Read the article in the recent Trains magazine - it destroys some myths regarding AMTRAK corridor service as being profitable, while the long distance service is not. BOTH services will never make money. After the war, the itself PRR did not regard the corridor as very profitable. Aside from the Congressional and Senator trains, (and the experimental Keystone), it bought no equipment for the corridor. Yet it tried to upgrade its entire long distance fleet. This was accomplished because the perception was that there was little money to be made on short-haul service. In the long run, of course the Pennsy regarded the long distance passenger investment as equally disastrous. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 9:03 AM To: ndbprr@att.net Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak trains on the PRR Your question displays a very Lines West view of the world. The "Big Red Subway" from NY to DC remains the core of Amtrak's service! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ndbprr@att.net wrote: > A front page article in the Chicago Tribune business section today indicates > that both the Pennsylvanian and the Three Rivers are proposed by Amtrak to be > dropped. They are both losing over $200 per person traveling on them. Does > this leave any through passenger service on the former main line? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:28:29 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train >In a message dated 9/26/02 9:07:12 AM Central Daylight Time, >cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > ><< is there a reason why the first I-1 always has the larger tender? >> > >A guess, though partly from dim recesses of memory, but I believe in a >doubleheader the nature of the operation results in the lead loco consuming >more water. I know there usually seems to be a consistent difference in >smoke quantity between double-headed locos, though I must confess I don't >remember if that is consistent with the steam consumption. > >Bob Zoeller I'm not sure where you could confirm this, but it seems somewhat logical. The lead or road engine would have the throttle and the cutoff opened up and the helper would keeping adding power until the train moved, leading to a lower expenditure of steam by the helper. I'm not an expert on operations for this branch, but in general, the "road engine" was coupled in front. The big tanks were often used for these locos so that they would make fewer stops for water. Helpers would have been on the train for less time, allowing them, in many cases, to complete the shove without stopping for water. Of course, if water stops were needed then the lowest capacity tank on the train would dictate when the stop occurred. BTW Chris, I would hope that the second I1 is NOT shoving on the first, as that means the first is doing no work! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:04:59 -0400 Gents; QUESTION, from a new guy....doubleheading, the head loco is pulling the second loco but is exerting less strain than if it was by itself, that how it works?? Example, if it was a 50 car train, the head loco "feels" like it is a 30 car train cause of the effort of the second loco?????? Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train > >In a message dated 9/26/02 9:07:12 AM Central Daylight Time, > >cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > > > ><< is there a reason why the first I-1 always has the larger tender? >> > > > >A guess, though partly from dim recesses of memory, but I believe in a > >doubleheader the nature of the operation results in the lead loco consuming > >more water. I know there usually seems to be a consistent difference in > >smoke quantity between double-headed locos, though I must confess I don't > >remember if that is consistent with the steam consumption. > > > >Bob Zoeller > > I'm not sure where you could confirm this, but it seems somewhat logical. > The lead or road engine would have the throttle and the cutoff opened up > and the helper would keeping adding power until the train moved, leading to > a lower expenditure of steam by the helper. > > I'm not an expert on operations for this branch, but in general, the "road > engine" was coupled in front. The big tanks were often used for these > locos so that they would make fewer stops for water. Helpers would have > been on the train for less time, allowing them, in many cases, to complete > the shove without stopping for water. Of course, if water stops were > needed then the lowest capacity tank on the train would dictate when the > stop occurred. > > BTW Chris, I would hope that the second I1 is NOT shoving on the first, as > that means the first is doing no work! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:28:40 +0000 This is going to get real technical real fast I fear but the basic answer is no. If engine 1 can move 1000 tons and engine 2 can move 1000 tons then the two engines together can move 2000 tons. Add two more on the back as was the case on the Mt. Carmel ore branch and add an additional 2000 tons to the train although these are hypothetical engines in a hypothetical train. Now if both engines are capable of 1000 tons each and the total tonnage is 1500 all bets are off. That isn't the way most trains were run in the steam era. Mostly it was tie every possible ton onto a drawbar and drag the whole thing at 10 mph and keep it moving. It wasn't until the very end that railroads started moving smaller tonnage trains faster. > Gents; > QUESTION, from a new guy....doubleheading, the head loco is pulling the > second loco but is exerting less strain than if it was by itself, that how > it works?? Example, if it was a 50 car train, the head loco "feels" like it > is a 30 car train cause of the effort of the second loco?????? > Earl Myers > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 11:28 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train > > > > >In a message dated 9/26/02 9:07:12 AM Central Daylight Time, > > >cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > > > > > ><< is there a reason why the first I-1 always has the larger tender? >> > > > > > >A guess, though partly from dim recesses of memory, but I believe in a > > >doubleheader the nature of the operation results in the lead loco > consuming > > >more water. I know there usually seems to be a consistent difference in > > >smoke quantity between double-headed locos, though I must confess I don't > > >remember if that is consistent with the steam consumption. > > > > > >Bob Zoeller > > > > I'm not sure where you could confirm this, but it seems somewhat logical. > > The lead or road engine would have the throttle and the cutoff opened up > > and the helper would keeping adding power until the train moved, leading > to > > a lower expenditure of steam by the helper. > > > > I'm not an expert on operations for this branch, but in general, the "road > > engine" was coupled in front. The big tanks were often used for these > > locos so that they would make fewer stops for water. Helpers would have > > been on the train for less time, allowing them, in many cases, to complete > > the shove without stopping for water. Of course, if water stops were > > needed then the lowest capacity tank on the train would dictate when the > > stop occurred. > > > > BTW Chris, I would hope that the second I1 is NOT shoving on the first, as > > that means the first is doing no work! > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:36:34 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train Earl asks: > QUESTION, from a new guy....doubleheading, the head loco is pulling the >second loco but is exerting less strain than if it was by itself, that how >it works?? Example, if it was a 50 car train, the head loco "feels" like it >is a 30 car train cause of the effort of the second loco?????? Not bad for a "new guy" . Basically, all of the force needed to move the train is transmitted through the coupler. If the train were light enough, the head loco could pull the helper and all the cars (and you see this with "deadheading locos") but in the situation on the video, you need more HP than one engine can provide, so two are used (and often on the Ore trains, 2 MORE on the REAR!). Its even more interesting to watch rear end helpers in action. There, the pulling of the road engine(s) stretches the draft gear of the first 30 cars, while the pusher(s) compresses the draft gear of the last 20. If you observe closely, you can find the point in the train where the slack action occurs as the shoved cars "catch up" to the pulled cars! Some other thoughts about steam helpers: 1) Moving a dead steamer any distance required removal of the rods, as the pistons and valves could be severly damaged if run without steam. Thus, a helper would never be "shut off" while in motion, but would always have the throttle open to some extent. 2) Stalling a steam engine means the wheels stop turning, and steam fills the cylinder but cannot move the piston. This does not damage the piston. Stalling a diseasel means you'd better shut off the current to the traction motors PDQ or you let out all the "magic smoke" (electronic devices all run on "magic smoke"...let it out and they stop working!) 3) It is VERY difficult to duplicate stalling on a model...rather, we have a situation where we have nearly unlimited horsepower (relatively speaking), but adhesion fails, and the model begins to slip. This is good as if we did actually stall our models, then all that magic smoke would get out! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Ore Train Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:58:20 -0400 Hi Guys, Having seen Ore Train many times at the PRRT&HS annual meetings I remember Clarence saying that the grade only warrented helpers at certain points along the way. The road engine typically had the large capacity tender and the helper(s) would have the smaller tenders. The road engine would do most of the work over the line with the helpers "loafing" along untill needed. Thus, the required horsepower was with the train the entire trip and the water in the smaller tenders was conserved for the times when the extra power was needed. All the locomotives were working the entire trip, although some not as hard as others. I hope some others who had the pleasure of knowing Clarence and hearing his narrations remember hearing this explaination the same way as I did. Hope this helps. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 11:28 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train >In a message dated 9/26/02 9:07:12 AM Central Daylight Time, >cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > ><< is there a reason why the first I-1 always has the larger tender? >> > >A guess, though partly from dim recesses of memory, but I believe in a >doubleheader the nature of the operation results in the lead loco consuming >more water. I know there usually seems to be a consistent difference in >smoke quantity between double-headed locos, though I must confess I don't >remember if that is consistent with the steam consumption. > >Bob Zoeller I'm not sure where you could confirm this, but it seems somewhat logical. The lead or road engine would have the throttle and the cutoff opened up and the helper would keeping adding power until the train moved, leading to a lower expenditure of steam by the helper. I'm not an expert on operations for this branch, but in general, the "road engine" was coupled in front. The big tanks were often used for these locos so that they would make fewer stops for water. Helpers would have been on the train for less time, allowing them, in many cases, to complete the shove without stopping for water. Of course, if water stops were needed then the lowest capacity tank on the train would dictate when the stop occurred. BTW Chris, I would hope that the second I1 is NOT shoving on the first, as that means the first is doing no work! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI M! and T1 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:35:58 +0000 If I read the information on the BLI web site correctly we can expect the A followed by the E7's with the M1 spring or early summer 2003 followed by the T1 summer 2003. That isn't good news to my thinking. They will most likely slip for many reasons. We are probably looking at 12 -18 months at best in my opinion for the M1 and 18-24 months for the T1 as a guess. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:46:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M! and T1 From: Jerry Britton On 9/26/02 3:35 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > If I read the information on the BLI web site correctly we can expect the A > followed by the E7's with the M1 spring or early summer 2003 followed by the > T1 > summer 2003. That isn't good news to my thinking. They will most likely slip > for many reasons. We are probably looking at 12 -18 months at best in my > opinion for the M1 and 18-24 months for the T1 as a guess. > I'm pessimistic as well... However, if they share a lot of components that had their problems worked out during J1e production, then perhaps there will be several units coming out at in close sequence. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:13:35 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 >If I read the information on the BLI web site correctly we can expect the A >followed by the E7's with the M1 spring or early summer 2003 followed by >the T1 >summer 2003. That isn't good news to my thinking. They will most likely >slip >for many reasons. We are probably looking at 12 -18 months at best in my >opinion for the M1 and 18-24 months for the T1 as a guess. Hey, what about the GG!??? On a similar note, has anyone heard any more on the following: 1) Walthers R50b - Sunshine was almost ready to release this in resin, but is sitting on the masters waiting to see what Walthers is doing. Hopefully at least one of these will see the light of day! 2) NKP - three new HO brass car side kits including a combine..shown at the PRRT&HS meeting, advertised in the back of the current Keystone...They've had my check (uncashed) for the combine since June. 3) Middle Division FOM (fleet of modernism) decals - samples shown at the PRRT&HS meeting, release set for June/July. They've had my SSAE since June. Don't get me wrong...I don't think that any of these companies are going belly up...sometimes it just takes time to get product out...I just wish I knew when the real dates were ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:26:50 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 While were waiting for products, what ever happened to the DesPlaines Hobbies (ne Middle Division) HO P85b's?? I saw test shots at the Springfield show over two years ago.. They were gorgeous, but have not yet seen the commercial light of day :-(( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > >If I read the information on the BLI web site correctly we can expect the A > >followed by the E7's with the M1 spring or early summer 2003 followed by > >the T1 > >summer 2003. That isn't good news to my thinking. They will most likely > >slip > >for many reasons. We are probably looking at 12 -18 months at best in my > >opinion for the M1 and 18-24 months for the T1 as a guess. > > Hey, what about the GG!??? > > On a similar note, has anyone heard any more on the following: > > 1) Walthers R50b - Sunshine was almost ready to release this in resin, but > is sitting on the masters waiting to see what Walthers is doing. Hopefully > at least one of these will see the light of day! > > 2) NKP - three new HO brass car side kits including a combine..shown at > the PRRT&HS meeting, advertised in the back of the current > Keystone...They've had my check (uncashed) for the combine since June. > > 3) Middle Division FOM (fleet of modernism) decals - samples shown at the > PRRT&HS meeting, release set for June/July. They've had my SSAE since June. > > Don't get me wrong...I don't think that any of these companies are going > belly up...sometimes it just takes time to get product out...I just wish I > knew when the real dates were ! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:53:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 From: Jerry Britton On 9/26/02 4:26 PM, "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > While were waiting for products, what ever happened to the DesPlaines Hobbies > (ne > Middle Division) HO P85b's?? They've been out in N for over a year...I've got a dozen. Care to switch scales? ;-) > > I saw test shots at the Springfield show over two years ago.. They were > gorgeous, but have not yet seen the commercial light of day :-(( > They've been showing the same test shots for two years, as you said. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:59:49 -0400 While talking to Intermountain, they have stated that they will be offering the Des Plains P85b built up and painted. They are hoping for delivery before the end of the year. That still doesn't answer the question of kit availability. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Bruce F. Smith" Cc: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 > While were waiting for products, what ever happened to the DesPlaines Hobbies (ne > Middle Division) HO P85b's?? > > I saw test shots at the Springfield show over two years ago.. They were > gorgeous, but have not yet seen the commercial light of day :-(( > > Regards, > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:33:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 Dennis sez: >While talking to Intermountain, they have stated that they will be offering >the Des Plains P85b built up and painted. They are hoping for delivery >before the end of the year. > >That still doesn't answer the question of kit availability. Well, actually, it probably does :^( Delivery before the end of the year means that the dies are cut, the parts are cast, and the cars are being built. Since Des Plains has not (recently) announced the kit, they may not be planning on releasing it as such. Welcome to the RTR world, gang. I most emphatically do NOT want to get a thread going on "the demise of kits" but some interesting facts are that IM sells 25 RTR cars for every kit in HO and its 40:1 in N! IM kits will most likely only be available by direct order from IM, and will not longer be available on hobby shop shelves or through retailers. Availability of a non-IM kit like the P85b will depend on the kit part maker. In many cases, they may forgo the kit as that relieves them of some costs of kit developement (like instructions that even Thumbz can follow). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Questions on passenger Sharks From: Matthew J Brown Date: 26 Sep 2002 02:46:09 -0700 I'm doing drawings of the PRR's Baldwin Sharknose passenger units BP-20 for use in train screensavers (see my page at http://www.byz.org/~morven/Railway32/ for much of my previous work) and I have a few questions: 1. Except for the panels over the engine units, steam generator etc. were the roofs painted body color? 2. I've seen mentions that the passenger sharks were painted in 'non-standard Tuscan' -- was the COLOR or the SCHEME non standard? And if the latter, are they referring to the keystones inside circles on the sides? 3. Were any passenger sharks painted in DGLE with 5 stripes extending to the nose? I've seen no photographs but have heard of text describing such. The original paint scheme with 5 stripes but not extending to the nose was in DGLE, I believe? 4. When some of the BP20 locomotives were derated and used in freight service, were they painted in DGLE single stripe? Any other visible changes for this service? 5. Could BP20s MU with any other type of locomotive and/or were they ever so used? Thank you in advance for any assistance you can provide. -Matthew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:16:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Raymond Loewy Exhibit --part1_bc.2d248aff.2ac4e12d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just received notification that the Hagley Museum in Wilmington, Delaware, is hosting a special exhibition on Raymond Loewy's industrial design work. The exhibit opened in Aug. and will run through Dec. 31, 2002. Information: www.hagley.org or phone 302/658-2400. Evan Leisey --part1_bc.2d248aff.2ac4e12d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just received notification that the Hagley Museum in Wilmington, Delaware, is hosting a special exhibition on Raymond Loewy's industrial design work. The exhibit opened in Aug. and will run through Dec. 31, 2002.

Information: www.hagley.org or phone 302/658-2400.

Evan Leisey --part1_bc.2d248aff.2ac4e12d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Questions on passenger Sharks Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:33:52 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C265B5.2C786990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Matthew, First let me preface by saying, "I believe" before each of these. The painting instructions I've seen: 1) do not make exceptions for any roof panels. The entire carbody was DGLP/DGLE/Brunswick Green (yes, all three were used interchangeably); 2) the latter. there was no non-standard Tuscan color; 3) I can't answer this one. I've never seen a photo; 4) Yes, and they retained the little numberboards; 5) Yes, the freight Sharks (BF-16z?) were m.u.-ed with other freight Sharks (BF-15/BF-15a/BF-16), spliced in the middle of drag freights. Their air actuated m.u. prevented them from doing so with others. Hope this helps, Elden - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C265B5.2C786990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Questions on passenger Sharks

Matthew, First let me preface by saying, "I = believe" before each of these. The painting instructions = I've seen:
1) do not make exceptions for any roof panels. = The entire carbody was DGLP/DGLE/Brunswick Green (yes, all three were = used interchangeably);

2) the latter. there was no non-standard = Tuscan color;
3) I can't answer this one. I've never = seen a photo;
4) Yes, and they retained the little = numberboards;
5) Yes, the freight Sharks (BF-16z?) were = m.u.-ed with other freight Sharks (BF-15/BF-15a/BF-16), spliced in the = middle of drag freights. Their air actuated m.u. prevented them = from doing so with others.

Hope this helps,
Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C265B5.2C786990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:44:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 In a message dated 9/26/02 4:39:50 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Since Des Plains has not (recently) announced the kit, they may not be planning on releasing it as such. >> I hesitate to jump in here as I don't know if Ron Sebastian is a member of the list and maybe he would comment (or not--- if I was a manufacturer I wouldn't comment on availability on the internet until the product was on the boat). However, I stopped at Des Plaines Hobbies the weekend of the National Hobby Show and was just lucky enough to see the latest test shots (unfortunately Andy Miller had apparently been there lately and bought up most of the Train Station Products core kits:-(). Look great. Yes, Ron is smart enough to see the trends and they will be RTR---I believe I am not giving away any secrets. He did say that he might have a small run of kits. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:53:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Delayed Releases was BLI M! and T1 In a message dated 9/26/02 4:39:50 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << IM kits will most likely only be available by direct order from IM, and will not longer be available on hobby shop shelves or through retailers. >> You are assuming all dealers buy IM through, say Walthers. Very costly in the case of IM, though convenient for a small purchase . IM has a dealer program and presumably offer the kits to us in the future. <> Actually a bigger cause is that the Chinese want labor hours (and U.S. dollars) and want more value added. Thus, a supplier of a kit doesn't have enough "hours" to bid to get a supplier there. He has lower priority than someone who will pay for assembly as well. Trust me that Ron Sebastian can get someone to write good instructions---I've built his freight cars. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions on passenger Sharks From: Matthew J Brown Date: 26 Sep 2002 06:09:21 -0700 "Michael A. Hmel" writes: > Is there a web page to look at the Railway 32 . I took a look at your page > and was wondering if there was a simulation of the product . Also were do > you go to get the system and who do you pay? http://www.railway32.net/ and the two Yahoo groups (general) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Railway32/ (US prototypes) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/r32usa/ It's a British program and thus a large proportion (but not all) of the drawings and modules produced are of British prototypes. My PRR stuff is a work in progress and thus does not yet install as easily as some of the prepackaged modules do. Railway 32 costs about 10 British pounds to buy the fully functional version, which goes to a charity the author is involved in. My drawings also function in the German MM&MM screensaver program and the Hungarian 'Traffic' program by Szabo Zoltan -- the latter being free, MM&MM also being shareware (about the same price as Railway 32). Thanks, -Matthew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Slipping & Flat Spots Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:09:04 -0400 Marty ...anybody interested. Your correct about discipline for such offenses but your definitions are a bit mixed up. A Flat Spot is created from a wheel dragged without rolling over the rail for a distance. The FRA has their own system to determine if a Flat Spot is concern to pull a car/locomotive from service. Average is 2-4 inches in length. Slipping was/is of concern not for flat spots but for "Ridge-ing" or "Shelving" caused by the friction of the wheel spin creating heat and ...for lack of a better explanation ....Melting the steel on the wheel and rail enough to actually add metal to the wheel ....a melding of sorts if you will. once the locomotive gets moving the "added metal" cools and becomes as part of the wheel. Do this enough times and the build-up can actually raise the hieght of the wheel to a very dangerous level near-even with the flange. Should this happen the obvious derailment can occur. Hopefully I've not addedd fuel to the fire on this one. Take care...Broadway -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk To: PRR-Talk Date: Thursday, September 26, 2002 1:13 AM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 09/26/02 PRR-Talk Digest - Thursday, September 26, 2002 RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers by "Cadwell, Marvin L" M&H #91, non-PRR by "Thomas von Trott" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:24:16 -0500 Several instances of slipping usually one set of drivers, but not the other. -----Original Message----- From: LAMAassoc@aol.com [mailto:LAMAassoc@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 7:27 PM To: Bobspf@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling a T1with slipping drivers In a message dated 9/24/02 7:13:29 PM, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << The tapes that I'm referring to show SEVERAL scenes in which the T1 slips. Despite what everyone says, it was far more prone to slippage than other engines. I realize one can say that the engineer did not handle the engine correctly, because, by definition, if an engine slips, it is not being driven correctly. Another way of stating this is that more skill was required by an engineer to avoid slippage with a T1 than a conventional steam engine. >> By "slipping," do you mean that an engine actually spins its wheels, much as a teenager burns rubber when he spins the wheels on dad's car? If so, then I remember slipping as an offense for which an engineer could, at least on the Pennsy, receive a disciplinary notice (I forget the form number). The offense was called "making a flat spot," something the MofW folks and the Road Foreman took seriously. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: M&H #91, non-PRR From: "Thomas von Trott" Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 00:23:42 -0400 Hey folks: Just thought I'd drop everyone a quick, not PRR, but Harrisburg PA related note of interest for Steam buffs. The folks over at the Middletown and Hummelstown were kind enough to allow me to be a guest for a Hydro test of the boiler on their ex-CN 2-6-0 #91 this past Saturday, and I'm happy to report that things went very well, and it is looking very likely that we will see her running in 2003. As far as I know they have not set any firm dates yet to have her in steam, but things are looking real good for a great year for steam in the Harrisburg area next year. We are hoping over at the WGHSEA to have ex-PRR 643 back as well (I'm a member of the crew over there). So I encourage all of you to keep your eyes open for more news (I don't know if there are any M&H people on this list or not, if there are I ask them to pretty please keep us up to date) so we can all go out and support and congradulate them on all their hard work comming to fruitation when 91 is up and running. Tom von Trott _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Train Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:42:43 -0500 Hi Chris--I have wondered about this myself. Alas, I was unable to attend any of the Clarence Weaver presentations. After watching "The Ore Train" many times, I realized that the second engine on the headend and the second pusher (short tenders) were not working all the time based on what I could see of the exhaust smoke. When they were working, smoke/steam was being blasted out; when not being used to assist in powering the train, the smoke looks more like it was just rising out of a chimney. No doubt this was being done to reduce the water stops which had to be a royal pain: uncouple the headend engines, take on water, then couple and get the air brake test, then move ahead, uncouple the pushers, take on water, then another brake test. Spotting a heavy train precisely where needed four times to provide water the four tenders was probably extremely difficult. Of course, not all of the ore trains had the luxury of engines being assigned this way. And Bruce wrote-- > > Not bad for a "new guy" . Basically, all of the force needed to move > the train is transmitted through the coupler. If the train were light > enough, the head loco could pull the helper and all the cars (and you see > this with "deadheading locos") but in the situation on the video, you need > more HP than one engine can provide, so two are used (and often on the Ore > trains, 2 MORE on the REAR!). Its even more interesting to watch rear end > helpers in action. There, the pulling of the road engine(s) stretches the > draft gear of the first 30 cars, while the pusher(s) compresses the draft > gear of the last 20. If you observe closely, you can find the point in the > train where the slack action occurs as the shoved cars "catch up" to the > pulled cars! > Exactly what can be done with DCC without worrying about scattering hoppers all over the floor! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:24 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) Bob, 1) I've never been to DesPlaines! Must have been someone else who cleaned them out of TSP core kits. I cleaned out my dealer in Boston. Actually, I had him order just the roofs for me. I build my own brass floors. I was most curious as to the difference between the PS roof and the ACF/PS roof. It turns out the the latter is a riveted roof - nice. Probably the right roof to put on my AHM/Rivarossi ACF 10-6s. 2) I sent an e-mail to DesPlaines re the P85s. They responded immediately, in effect apologizing for the delay, saying they had gotten involved in other projects. Now I know what the other project was. I am afraid we are going to soon see the $100 plastic car and my desire for a fleet of P85s will have to rely on my scratch building some more. I never thought it would happen, but I could get to hate I/M! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/26/02 4:39:50 PM Central Daylight Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > << Since Des Plains has not (recently) announced the kit, they may not > be planning on releasing it as such. >> > > I hesitate to jump in here as I don't know if Ron Sebastian is a member of > the list and maybe he would comment (or not--- if I was a manufacturer I > wouldn't comment on availability on the internet until the product was on the > boat). However, I stopped at Des Plaines Hobbies the weekend of the National > Hobby Show and was just lucky enough to see the latest test shots > (unfortunately Andy Miller had apparently been there lately and bought up > most of the Train Station Products core kits:-(). Look great. Yes, Ron is > smart enough to see the trends and they will be RTR---I believe I am not > giving away any secrets. He did say that he might have a small run of kits. > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:07:23 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Questions on passenger Sharks Mathew sez: >I'm doing drawings of the PRR's Baldwin Sharknose passenger units >BP-20 for use in train screensavers (see my page at >http://www.byz.org/~morven/Railway32/ for much of my previous work) >and I have a few questions: Mathew, see Jerry's site Keystone Crossings for a complete run down on these paint schemes http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/index.html and Rob Schoenberg's site http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/ for the PRR drawings. >1. Except for the panels over the engine units, steam generator > etc. were the roofs painted body color? As noted, the ENTIRE body, including roof was DGLE and then Tuscan, no exception made for "panels". >2. I've seen mentions that the passenger sharks were painted in > 'non-standard Tuscan' -- was the COLOR or the SCHEME non standard? > And if the latter, are they referring to the keystones inside > circles on the sides? Where was "non-standard Tuscan mentioned? AFAIK, it is a figment of someone's imagination! >3. Were any passenger sharks painted in DGLE with 5 stripes extending > to the nose? I've seen no photographs but have heard of text > describing such. The original paint scheme with 5 stripes but not > extending to the nose was in DGLE, I believe? Yes, "Sheme 2" http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/bg_bp20/scheme2_p.jpeg Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Silver G's Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:22:59 +0000 According to some pretty good sources the silver G's were originally intended for the Congresionals. Why did they have a red stripe instead of Tuscan? Were they painted before the cars were available and did somebody decide to change the letterboard to tuscan from red during construction? I assume the stripe was Toulidine red? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 06:50:29 -0700 Andy and all, Marty McGuirk, now a Veep at Intermountain, has weighed in on another list (steam-era freightcars) regarding IM's decision to go pretty much exclusively RTR. He says it was due to the fact that most if not all shops ordering cars were ordering almost exclusively RTR...this was a marketing decision and not a decision based on Walthers or IM's desires. From what I've seen here in Arizona where I live (not exactly a hotbed of modeling) all the shops are selling RTR like there was no tomorrow. Kits languish on the shelves. Therefore the dealers are ordering what their customers are buying. From what I am seeing, nobody is buying kits anymore. Don't blame Intermountain (or Red Caboose or other former kit manufacturer) for what the guys who are willing to spend money for RTR are buying. I understand that kits will still be available from IM, RC and others direct only. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:00:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) From: Jerry Britton On 9/27/02 9:50 AM, billd@gci-net.com (billd@gci-net.com) wrote: > Marty McGuirk, now a Veep at Intermountain, has weighed in > on another list (steam-era freightcars) regarding IM's > decision to go pretty much exclusively RTR. He says it was > due to the fact that most if not all shops ordering cars > were ordering almost exclusively RTR...this was a marketing > decision and not a decision based on Walthers or IM's > desires. From what I've seen here in Arizona where I live > (not exactly a hotbed of modeling) all the shops are > selling RTR like there was no tomorrow. Kits languish on > the shelves. Therefore the dealers are ordering what their > customers are buying. From what I am seeing, nobody is > buying kits anymore. Don't blame Intermountain (or Red > Caboose or other former kit manufacturer) for what the guys > who are willing to spend money for RTR are buying. > > I understand that kits will still be available from IM, RC > and others direct only. > >From a sales standpoint, I have to agree. MS has seen most sales go as RtR, even though folks on the list say they would rather build a kit and detail it. I think perhaps the majority want something that is RtR so they can concentrate on building the layout. It's not that money isn't an issue, but rather that money is taking a back seat to time. I know that is my case. The IM models are excellent. Their built-up Reading coaches (from BCW) were well received. I don't remember the last time I filled an order for IM kits. I have RC kits that sit unsold (anyone needs PRR X29's?) while the RtR cars move immediately. If only more PRR RtR cars were available! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:21:17 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) Of course, I get a substantial discount from my dealer which I would not get on a direct order for one kit from I/M. So the kit might wind up costing more than the RTR. Looks like scratch building may make a comeback. Of course I could always watch the train shows. All those RTR cars are being sold to people, many of whom will lose interest in the hobby since they don't build anything. Cheap, second hand RTR cars should start appearing on dealers tables within a year or so. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== billd@gci-net.com wrote: > Andy and all, > > Marty McGuirk, now a Veep at Intermountain, has weighed in > on another list (steam-era freightcars) regarding IM's > decision to go pretty much exclusively RTR. He says it was > due to the fact that most if not all shops ordering cars > were ordering almost exclusively RTR...this was a marketing > decision and not a decision based on Walthers or IM's > desires. From what I've seen here in Arizona where I live > (not exactly a hotbed of modeling) all the shops are > selling RTR like there was no tomorrow. Kits languish on > the shelves. Therefore the dealers are ordering what their > customers are buying. From what I am seeing, nobody is > buying kits anymore. Don't blame Intermountain (or Red > Caboose or other former kit manufacturer) for what the guys > who are willing to spend money for RTR are buying. > > I understand that kits will still be available from IM, RC > and others direct only. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:53:05 -0500 With the RTR freight cars, how easy is it to replace the trucks and couplers? Is it simply a matter of unscrewing these items, or is it more complicated. I've never bought RTR cars before for fear of having trouble replacing these items. -----Original Message----- From: billd@gci-net.com [mailto:billd@gci-net.com] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 8:50 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) Andy and all, Marty McGuirk, now a Veep at Intermountain, has weighed in on another list (steam-era freightcars) regarding IM's decision to go pretty much exclusively RTR. He says it was due to the fact that most if not all shops ordering cars were ordering almost exclusively RTR...this was a marketing decision and not a decision based on Walthers or IM's desires. From what I've seen here in Arizona where I live (not exactly a hotbed of modeling) all the shops are selling RTR like there was no tomorrow. Kits languish on the shelves. Therefore the dealers are ordering what their customers are buying. From what I am seeing, nobody is buying kits anymore. Don't blame Intermountain (or Red Caboose or other former kit manufacturer) for what the guys who are willing to spend money for RTR are buying. I understand that kits will still be available from IM, RC and others direct only. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] N5 in MOW Liist, Can someone relay to me a known N5 car number seen in MOW Yellow/Black. I have color guide #3 but no pics there. How about Vol 1 or 2? Not sure where else to look for a photo of one. The car I need a number from is a plain N5. Also share what all lettering is on the car. I assume just PRR, Car Number and maybe a few small stencilings? No Keystone I presume? Thanks for the help....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:16:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) Marvin aks >With the RTR freight cars, how easy is it to replace the trucks and >couplers? Is it simply a matter of unscrewing these items, or is it more >complicated. I've never bought RTR cars before for fear of having trouble >replacing these items. Over on the RM-forum, Jim Six was bemoaning the fact that he nearly demolished two of the new IM built up Tichy Panel side rebuilt USRA hoppers trying to change out the couplers...seems they glued the boxes on with Kadee #5s...Jim wanted the proto sized #58 or #78...at $32 a car, that seems like a REAL pain . Of course, if the kit has screws for the coupler boxes, it is likely that the RTR will too. Happy Raisl Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:22:52 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Icing Stations While surfing the Web I came across a listing of PRR icing stations at www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/ ICING_STATIONS.htm What is the difference among the three categories: regular, emergency and retop? And what is "snow ice?" Anyone know what these actually looked like, assuming there was a standard design? Jim McDaniel, looking for a way to cool some Delmarva produce reefers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:50:31 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Icing Stations Jim asked: >While surfing the Web I came across a listing of PRR icing stations at >http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/ICING_STATIO >NS.htm Great web site! (I added in the http:// above as it allows most web browsers to bring it up as a hot link!) >What is the difference among the three categories: regular, emergency >and retop? And what is "snow ice?" Lets see how I do here... Regular icing station could involve icing/pre-icing cars for loading or just after loading, and would involve filling the ice bunkers from "scratch". Retop icing would be topping off the ice in the bunker of loaded car. This might occur with a pre-iced car that had be loaded and was topped off prior to departure or it might be don en-route, according to orders in the waybill, to keep the load chilled correctly. Emergency icing would be done when the car inspector determined that sufficient ice was not present to preserve the load. Snow ice is crushed ice, and might be loaded either in the bunker or as "top ice" on the load. >Anyone know what these actually looked like, assuming there was a >standard design? Most icing stations consisted of a platform at car top level. Reefewr were accessed by gangplanks across to the car. The platforms often had belts to move the ice blocks, and bins for the salt. Snow ice would require either a conveyor or a mobile crushing machine. There may have been a standard PRR design, but I'm not aware of it. Great news for PRR reefer fans...Marty McGuirk, of Intermountain says that IM is well along in producing an "FGE Reefer". This will be a wood sheathed ice reefer and is "all new tooling". I don't know if it duplicates one of the Sunshine kits. It will AFAIK, following current IM policy, be sold only as RTR except directly from IM. FGE reefers were probably the most common roadname seen on the PRR, so a fleet of these, with a few PFE and SFRD cars mixed in will look mighty nice! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 in MOW Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:04:45 -0400 Page 118 in Volume 1 has a real nice shot in the black and yellow paint. The number is 492418, and it has no keystone. Just PRR then the number. Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: [PRR] N5 in MOW > Liist, > > Can someone relay to me a known N5 car number seen in MOW > Yellow/Black. I have color guide #3 but no pics there. How about Vol 1 > or 2? Not sure where else to look for a photo of one. The car I need a > number from is a plain N5. Also share what all lettering is on the car. > I assume just PRR, Car Number and maybe a few small stencilings? No > Keystone I presume? Thanks for the help....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Icing Stations Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:20:49 +0000 >Anyone know what these actually looked like, assuming there was a > >standard design? > One of the Keystones in the 90's had an article on icing stations including several pictures. The pictures were toward the end of the ice era so the station was getting minimal attention but like everything else the PRR probably had standard designs, paint, etc. As I recall what paint there was appeared to be gray. > Jim asked: > >While surfing the Web I came across a listing of PRR icing stations at > >http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/ICING_STATIO > >NS.htm > > Great web site! (I added in the http:// above as it allows most web > browsers to bring it up as a hot link!) > > >What is the difference among the three categories: regular, emergency > >and retop? And what is "snow ice?" > > Lets see how I do here... > Regular icing station could involve icing/pre-icing cars for loading or > just after loading, and would involve filling the ice bunkers from > "scratch". > > Retop icing would be topping off the ice in the bunker of loaded car. This > might occur with a pre-iced car that had be loaded and was topped off prior > to departure or it might be don en-route, according to orders in the > waybill, to keep the load chilled correctly. > > Emergency icing would be done when the car inspector determined that > sufficient ice was not present to preserve the load. > > Snow ice is crushed ice, and might be loaded either in the bunker or as > "top ice" on the load. > > >Anyone know what these actually looked like, assuming there was a > >standard design? > > Most icing stations consisted of a platform at car top level. Reefewr were > accessed by gangplanks across to the car. The platforms often had belts to > move the ice blocks, and bins for the salt. Snow ice would require either > a conveyor or a mobile crushing machine. There may have been a standard > PRR design, but I'm not aware of it. > > Great news for PRR reefer fans...Marty McGuirk, of Intermountain says that > IM is well along in producing an "FGE Reefer". This will be a wood > sheathed ice reefer and is "all new tooling". I don't know if it > duplicates one of the Sunshine kits. It will AFAIK, following current IM > policy, be sold only as RTR except directly from IM. FGE reefers were > probably the most common roadname seen on the PRR, so a fleet of these, > with a few PFE and SFRD cars mixed in will look mighty nice! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:13:17 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] PFE (was:Icing Stations) "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: (in part) > . . . > > Great news for PRR reefer fans...Marty McGuirk, of Intermountain says that > IM is well along in producing an "FGE Reefer". This will be a wood > sheathed ice reefer and is "all new tooling". I don't know if it > duplicates one of the Sunshine kits. It will AFAIK, following current IM > policy, be sold only as RTR except directly from IM. FGE reefers were > probably the most common roadname seen on the PRR, so a fleet of these, > with a few PFE and SFRD cars mixed in will look mighty nice! > > Happy Rails > Bruce PFE was owned by the PRR, N&W, SAL, ... in fact, all the RRs PRR had a financial interest in. AFAIK it was primarily a shipper of Florida produce heading north and west. It was operated in coordination with Western Fruit Express, the GN subsidiary. Have you ever noticed the similarity in the two liveries? The two coordinated their complementary growing seasons. When oranges were being picked in Florida, WFE reefers headed east. When apples and potatoes were coming out of the Pacific NW, FGE cars headed west. So what? Well AFAICT this means you should have E-W reefer blocks and N-S reefer blocks, and the FGE/WFE cars should dominate the latter, while PFE/SFRD should dominate the former. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE (was:Icing Stations) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:07:02 -0400 Whoa, Andy, PFE {Pacific Fruit Express) was a joint venture of SOUTHERN PACIFIC and UNION PACIFIC and the PRR had nothing to do with it. PRR was the largest single shareholder in FGE (Fruit Growers Express), along with generally the same owners has those owning the RF&P, but based on the number of cars each contributed upon its creation in the late 1920's. Western Fruit Express (GN) and Burlington Refrigerator Express (CB&Q) also ended up under the same umbrella as did Armour (ARLX). Like the RF&P, FGE ended up being a creature of CSX. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Bruce F. Smith" Cc: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:13 PM Subject: [PRR] PFE (was:Icing Stations) > "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: (in part) > > > . . . > > > > Great news for PRR reefer fans...Marty McGuirk, of Intermountain says that > > IM is well along in producing an "FGE Reefer". This will be a wood > > sheathed ice reefer and is "all new tooling". I don't know if it > > duplicates one of the Sunshine kits. It will AFAIK, following current IM > > policy, be sold only as RTR except directly from IM. FGE reefers were > > probably the most common roadname seen on the PRR, so a fleet of these, > > with a few PFE and SFRD cars mixed in will look mighty nice! > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > PFE was owned by the PRR, N&W, SAL, ... in fact, all the RRs PRR had a financial > interest in. AFAIK it was primarily a shipper of Florida produce heading north and > west. It was operated in coordination with Western Fruit Express, the GN > subsidiary. Have you ever noticed the similarity in the two liveries? The two > coordinated their complementary growing seasons. When oranges were being picked in > Florida, WFE reefers headed east. When apples and potatoes were coming out of the > Pacific NW, FGE cars headed west. > > So what? Well AFAICT this means you should have E-W reefer blocks and N-S reefer > blocks, and the FGE/WFE cars should dominate the latter, while PFE/SFRD should > dominate the former. > > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:26:14 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: PFE (was:Icing Stations) Andy sez: >PFE was owned by the PRR, N&W, SAL, ... in fact, all the RRs PRR had a >financial ^^^^ um, you meant FGE right ? >interest in. AFAIK it was primarily a shipper of Florida produce heading >north and >west. It was operated in coordination with Western Fruit Express, the GN >subsidiary. Have you ever noticed the similarity in the two liveries? >The two >coordinated their complementary growing seasons. When oranges were being >picked in >Florida, WFE reefers headed east. When apples and potatoes were coming >out of the >Pacific NW, FGE cars headed west. > >So what? Well AFAICT this means you should have E-W reefer blocks and >N-S reefer >blocks, and the FGE/WFE cars should dominate the latter, while PFE/SFRD should >dominate the former. Actually, its probably a little more complicated than that. Solid blocks of reefers with similar cargos could be seen from "local originations", eg. peaches from the Carolinas that came off the RF&P at Potomac Yard, up the mainline and the NC at Baltimore to Enola for shipment west, or bananas from Baltimore's harbor. Lots of these cars in N/S banana service were PFE/SFRD. Reefer blocks from the left coast coming east were combinations of different produce from lots of different locations and would have been "mixed" and resorted in intermediate yards...as such they might have PFE reefers from CA, WFEX reefers from the pacific NW, BREX reefers from the northwest and midwest, SFRD reefers from the southwest, as well as FGE reefers in "back haul". According to Tony Thompson and Richard Hendrickson, PFE avoided shipping on the PRR as the damage records were atrocious. Most PFE traffic for New York and New England was routed over the Erie. Thus, the predominant reefer on the PRR would be the FGEX/WFEX/BREX (Burlington, also a member of the conglomerate) cars, with a minority population of PFE, and even fewer SFRD cars, whether E/W or N/S. Most trains should be mixes of these roads, rather than solid blocks of one road, although certain trains, like the peach train, might be 90% or more FGEX/WFEX/BREX. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:32:28 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE (was:Icing Stations) Sorry, of course I meant FGE, it was the discussion of the forthcoming FGE car from IM that prompted the discussion. I guess when I think of refrigerators, I just naturally think of PFE (and beer). Everything I mistakenly said of PFE applies to FGE, ownership, livery, coordination with WFE; except, of course, the reference to E-W reefer blocks being dominated by PFE/SFRD. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Whoa, Andy, > > PFE {Pacific Fruit Express) was a joint venture of SOUTHERN PACIFIC and > UNION PACIFIC and the PRR had nothing to do with it. PRR was the largest > single shareholder in FGE (Fruit Growers Express), along with generally the > same owners has those owning the RF&P, but based on the number of cars each > contributed upon its creation in the late 1920's. Western Fruit Express > (GN) and Burlington Refrigerator Express (CB&Q) also ended up under the same > umbrella as did Armour (ARLX). > > Like the RF&P, FGE ended up being a creature of CSX. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > To: "Bruce F. Smith" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 3:13 PM > Subject: [PRR] PFE (was:Icing Stations) > > > "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: (in part) > > > > > . . . > > > > > > Great news for PRR reefer fans...Marty McGuirk, of Intermountain says > that > > > IM is well along in producing an "FGE Reefer". This will be a wood > > > sheathed ice reefer and is "all new tooling". I don't know if it > > > duplicates one of the Sunshine kits. It will AFAIK, following current > IM > > > policy, be sold only as RTR except directly from IM. FGE reefers were > > > probably the most common roadname seen on the PRR, so a fleet of these, > > > with a few PFE and SFRD cars mixed in will look mighty nice! > > > > > > Happy Rails > > > Bruce > > > > PFE was owned by the PRR, N&W, SAL, ... in fact, all the RRs PRR had a > financial > > interest in. AFAIK it was primarily a shipper of Florida produce heading > north and > > west. It was operated in coordination with Western Fruit Express, the GN > > subsidiary. Have you ever noticed the similarity in the two liveries? > The two > > coordinated their complementary growing seasons. When oranges were being > picked in > > Florida, WFE reefers headed east. When apples and potatoes were coming > out of the > > Pacific NW, FGE cars headed west. > > > > So what? Well AFAICT this means you should have E-W reefer blocks and > N-S reefer > > blocks, and the FGE/WFE cars should dominate the latter, while PFE/SFRD > should > > dominate the former. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > ================================================== > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:38:04 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE (was:Icing Stations) Well...don't forget our very own Delmarva Division which was a major produce producing region in it's own right. Many FGE reefers originated here bound for Philadelphia and New York and other places -- but as far as I can tell they probably weren't iced because it was such a short trip. The main crops were potatoes (Irish and Sweet), with fancy vegetables, greens, beans, squash, tomatoes and strawberries depending on the season. I have been told that seafood usually went by express reefer as it was smaller, lighter and more valuable per pound. I have an old NYP&N list from the 'teens of a 39 car shipment of potatoes going north and west including 4 cars to Pier 29 (NYC?), 4 to Pitcairn, 4 to Detroit, 10 (!) to Chicago, and singles to many other places up the Eastern Seaboard. In the twenties, these tow Virginia counties had the highest per acre farm productivity in dollars of any in the US. I will be on the lookout for the IM FGE cars, but I would want kits because I enjoy the process of building them. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva near Nottingham Bros. Farms, growers of fancy produce (wholesale, mostly), who have about 20 acres of bell peppers growing near my house ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] TSP Core kits (was: Delayed Releases by BLI) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:31:55 +0000 ANDY - Your suspicion that the RTR buyers will , for the most part, be dumping the nice RTR items before too long is probably right on. Obviously the dollar speaks, and the retailers are wasting no time, (along with the manufacturers), in getting aboard the RTR special. Perhaps it's time for the dealers to change their letterboards from "Hobby Shop" to "Toy Store" ! That's been appropriate for the majority of them for some time now anyway. Hope I live long enough to see it turn around. "The guy who dies with the most toys is the winner." (Only he's just as dead as the losers.) Hoping for saner days, -HANK > Of course, I get a substantial discount from my dealer which I would not > get on a direct order for one kit from I/M. So the kit might wind up > costing more than the RTR. Looks like scratch building may make a > comeback. > > Of course I could always watch the train shows. All those RTR cars are > being sold to people, many of whom will lose interest in the hobby since > they don't build anything. Cheap, second hand RTR cars should start > appearing on dealers tables within a year or so. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > billd@gci-net.com wrote: > > > Andy and all, > > > > Marty McGuirk, now a Veep at Intermountain, has weighed in > > on another list (steam-era freightcars) regarding IM's > > decision to go pretty much exclusively RTR. He says it was > > due to the fact that most if not all shops ordering cars > > were ordering almost exclusively RTR...this was a marketing > > decision and not a decision based on Walthers or IM's > > desires. From what I've seen here in Arizona where I live > > (not exactly a hotbed of modeling) all the shops are > > selling RTR like there was no tomorrow. Kits languish on > > the shelves. Therefore the dealers are ordering what their > > customers are buying. From what I am seeing, nobody is > > buying kits anymore. Don't blame Intermountain (or Red > > Caboose or other former kit manufacturer) for what the guys > > who are willing to spend money for RTR are buying. > > > > I understand that kits will still be available from IM, RC > > and others direct only. > > > > Bill Daniels > > Tucson, AZ > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:56:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PFE (was:Icing Stations) --part1_188.ec5c22a.2ac63c1c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/27/2002 3:23:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: > PFE was owned by the PRR, N&W, SAL, ... in fact, all the RRs PRR had a > financial > interest in Andy: I think you misspoke here. PFE was owned entirely by Union Pacific and Southern Pacific. I think you meant ART and/or FGE. Rich Orr --part1_188.ec5c22a.2ac63c1c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 09/27/2002 3:23:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes:

PFE was owned by the PRR, N&W, SAL, ... in fact, all the RRs PRR had a financial
interest in

Andy:

I think you misspoke here. PFE was owned entirely by Union Pacific and Southern Pacific. I think you meant ART and/or FGE.

Rich Orr --part1_188.ec5c22a.2ac63c1c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:11:14 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] FGE (was icing stations) --------------Boundary-00=_QQD4MY50000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, With this thread about FGE and Pennsy being the largest shareholder= , where can I find info about it? Did someone write a book; where there = articles submitted in the model/prototype press about them? Are they st= ill in business? Thanks Jim --------------Boundary-00=_QQD4MY50000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable