From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] (LOCO) MP:229 Lists, Thanks guys for all the email help concerning the MP 229's and the assignment for the loco I had in question. The loco in question was C1 6638. The MP229's I have showed service at Wilmngton De in 1931. Later the 6638 went to the Philly Div. as my MP 229 of 1943 shows. Appearently it stayed there til late 1949. Then is not shown on any later MP 229. So one can assume it was dropped and later cut up or sold for scrap and cut up from someone else in 1950. ........Thanks again for the help....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] (LOCO) MP:229 Lists, Thanks guys for all the email help concerning the MP 229's and the assignment for the loco I had in question. The loco in question was C1 6638. The MP229's I have showed service at Wilmngton De in 1931. Later the 6638 went to the Philly Div. as my MP 229 of 1943 shows. Appearently it stayed there til late 1949. Then is not shown on any later MP 229. So one can assume it was dropped and later cut up or sold for scrap and cut up from someone else in 1950. ........Thanks again for the help....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:23:58 -0500 Try New Orleans. The last time I booked for a convention, the first night's charge appeared on my company credit card, a full month before I finally arrived. -----Original Message----- From: gregv@netreach.net [mailto:gregv@netreach.net] Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 8:25 PM To: Lewis J. Matt PhD; Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST; gregv@netreach.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel I found it odd that they asked for the full room charge in advance as a room hold. I work in the meeting/event planning industry and was never asked to pay in-full prior to receiving services. Yes, I am in the process of collecting my money via the credit card company. I am going to make one last attempt/phone call to collect before filing. It is a shame. It is a unique venue. When Conrail was selling off the N-5's, they were asking scrap value, I heard around 2,000-2,500. They would evan ship it anywhere on their system just to get rid of them. I hope they work out the problem, but everyone be aware of the circumstances. Thanks Greg Vlassopoulos > I assume when you say you are "in dispute" that you have filed an official > dispute form with your credit card company. This should be an effective way > to get your money back. You can also file a claim in small claims court > through a local PA magistrate and sue them for the charge and court costs > (about $95.00). BTW, the owner used to be John Denlinger. > > The info you supplied in this letter indicates that the caboose lodge had a > septic malfunction that went uncorrected and then contaminated their own > well. As a certified Sewage Enforcement Officer for PA, I know how > reluctant a municipality is to start any action against a violator, it must > be a significant violation (dangerous to the community and the party make NO > effort to repair. Should give everyone something to think about, for ever > staying at that motel. If they avoid repairing something that dangerous, > what other maintenance has been deferred or neglected? > > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" > > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel > > > > I expected to stay there for Pennsy Days. I cancelled well in advanced to > the > > cancellation cutoff date. The Red Caboose Motel never reversed charges on > my > > credit card. I am now in a dispute for 109.89? Who knows. They blamed > the > > non-response to their nitrate H2O problems, only they were shut down two > weeks > > after my initial request for my money return. Now where do I go for my > money? > > > > Greg Vlassopoulos > > > > > > > Headline from today... (http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/A1238905.asp) > > > > > > Township Sues Red Caboose Motel > > > > > > LANCASTER, Pa., 10:26 a.m. EDT June 26, 2002 - There is more trouble for > > > Lancaster County's Red Caboose Motel located near Strasburg. > > > > > > Paradise Township is suing the motel, saying it failed to maintain its > > > sewage treatment system after a sewer leak on the lawn. > > > > > > The state Department of Environmental Protection shut down the motel 13 > days > > > ago for not fixing unhealthy nitrate levels in its drinking water. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:52:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] Motels Try Athens Ohio (Ohio University) for events like parents weekend homecomming and graduation - all local rooms are sold out by noon on the Monday following the previous one (a year less a couple of days ahead) It is also typical that the charges appear on your credit card statement eleven months prior to your arrival. (Good Luck with a refund if you try to cancel - they WILL, however, resell the room) I assune PSU events - and other big schools in small towns are the same way. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:33:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/29/02 Just curious, what exactly is that K4 sitting on? Transfer table? Turntable? - Ben Sullivan > Subject: K4 Photo, > From: "Gary Mittner" > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:49:00 -0400 (EDT) > > List, > > This isn't an ebay sales pitch but go look at this item if you wish. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116640349. I was > alerted of this by someone who had a question on it's future (wondered > if it was scrapped afterwards) of this K4. Looks pretty bad. But, > according to records this particular K4 wasn't cut up til 1947. 13 more > years of faithful service! Look at that damage. New boiler, drivers? and > cylindesr to say the least was required for repair. Just goes to show > you how the Pennsy felt about their #1 mainline Passenger Class Loco. > All but the most severe of wrecks could take out a K4 for good....Gary __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 14:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest (K4 Photo) Ben, Actually it looks like the K4 is sitting on a bridge. Notice the famous PRR Stantions? .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 11:58:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/29/02 Alex & list, Here's a link to some info on the "half-GG1". Pretty wild. http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/prr.html#g-half Enjoy, Ben Sullivan > Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, > From: "Alex Charyna" > Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:38:56 -0800 > > Speaking of chopped up GG1s, > I read somewhere (maybe Pennsy Electric Years), > that there was a GG1 cut in half, and used for a > snow plow. I think it was based out of Wilmington > through the 80s.... Don't recall the number. > > Does anyone have pictures of this thing? > Did it get an official name? GG1/2? > > thanks.. > -alex __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 12:23:09 -0700 Hi guys, Although I have not devoted nearly as much time to this as I should, I thought I could add the following: The GLe is available from Railworks in both early and late (stamped rib) models. It is fine. Only a handful were still around in the 60's, but many in company sand service. The H30(a?) is now re-issued from F&C and is a MUCH nicer kit than the one previously available. You can also get one from Oriental in brass, plus the std H30. You need lots of H30's! The H32: ditto for the resin kit. The H33 you can kitbash, but is more like a scratchbuild, from the MDC 2-bay covered hopper. I did one and it turned out nice, but OUCH, lots of work. New roof, side stakes, complete ends, etc. The H34 is very do-able from the Atlas, but Rick's comments are well-taken. I did a H34 (no subseries) from the MDC kit with major re-work, but it does do the early narrow hatch model. You can susbstitute DA hatches and outlets now for better detail, plus the roofwalk from Plano. The H40 is do-able from ConCor, Walthers or Eastern Car Works. Each one of these kits have issues. There is an Overland brass not PRR specific, but it is nice. The H41 could be done as a kit bash of the above kits. Same issues apply. The H42 can be done with the Atlas model, and they have even done one with PRR paint. Note the PRR details, though. The H44 on are beyond my era, but someone can address these.' If anyone is interested in talking about these guys, drop me a line. Have a good one! elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:06:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest (K4 Photo) --part1_cb.2466b1d3.2a52102e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/1/02 2:53:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > Ben, > > Actually it looks like the K4 is sitting on a bridge. Notice the > famous PRR Stantions? .....Gary > Hi Gary and others, The K4s is sitting on a bridge...a turntable bridge. Note the tracks in the foreground leading to the pit and the support structure for the electric supply above the engine. The PRR stantions were found on most Pennsy turntables. Best regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 P.S. I really enjoy your website. --part1_cb.2466b1d3.2a52102e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/1/02 2:53:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes:


Ben,

     Actually it looks like the K4 is sitting on a bridge. Notice the
famous PRR Stantions? .....Gary


Hi Gary and others,

The K4s is sitting on a bridge...a turntable bridge.  Note the tracks in the foreground leading to the pit and the support structure for the electric supply above the engine.
The PRR stantions were found on most Pennsy turntables.

Best regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92

P.S. I really enjoy your website. --part1_cb.2466b1d3.2a52102e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:11:10 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Atlas H34 cars Rick Tipton writes in reply: > In a message dated 6/27/02 8:18:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Atlas did the H34 subclasses Rick goes on to comment... >To be exact, Atlas has the later PS-2 2003cf body, and so can only do H34C(first or second order)and H34D. Model Die Casting's PS-2 offering is still the closest to H34,H34A, and H34B.< I will likely stick my foot in my mouth as I am writting this from work away from the article I did in Mainline Modeler that broke down each offering by class and the needed changes for each. But I believe if my memory serves me, the only car that can be accurately model from the MDC kit is the H34 and H34A (? Yikes). Rememeber the H34 series of cars came from Pullman and the rest cars were built in company shops from kits. Thus there were some differences from the mainstream... The striking difference was the spacing of the roof hatches/loading hatches. The Pulllman built cars (H34) were spaced closer toward the center of the car and the cubic capacity was less 1958 cubic. By spreading the hatches out, the cars could actually load more product closer to the slope sheet thus adding to the cubic footage. Neet trick. The H34D is very close to the Atlas car (with mod's) and ran on Crown trucks from the dismantled H21's. The H34c may be close as well but without the drawings I did for the > > Believe my Atlas 3-pack includes one H34C in SK1b lettering, one in SK2a, and one in PK. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West< If you read the article many of the questions are answered and some are left wide open, such as the use of black roofs on some of the H34 cars. Could this just be the way Pullman delievered them, anti-slip car cement, or were they assigned to some special service...? The answers are gone with the men who ran the PRR? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:33:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Camp car yellow Howdy, Since I model the period prior to the introduction of Camp car Yeller for MOW equipment, and Al Buchan suggested yellow as the color for crawler cranse...I was wondering if any of you had a suggestion for an appropriate match in Poly Scale (since that is what my local shop has and what I like to use!) TIA Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] FF2's Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:06:53 +0000 Just turned over my Cedco calendar to July which is a picture of an FF2 at Thorn. I assume the "big Liz" was class FF1. Is this correct? thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:24:10 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] FF2's >Just turned over my Cedco calendar to July which is a >picture of an FF2 at Thorn. I assume the "big Liz" was >class FF1. Is this correct? thanks, Norm Bell Yep, the FF1 was "Big Liz" and the FF2 were the Ex Great Northern electrics. Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 19:29:17 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: [PRR] P5 #4700 I paid a visit to P5 #4700 and GG1 #4916 on Friday at the Museum of Transportation in St. Louis. Neither is looking to well, although they are under a roof. http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net/020629 -- Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 20:21:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Crestline roundhouse up-date From: prrq2 List, The Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society has been busy during the past couple of months. They have been fine tuning their Mission Statement, approved the By-laws, and discussing many topics as to the best path to take to save and preserve Crestline's PRR roundhouse. The big news came earlier today. The CRPS is now recognized by the State of Ohio as a non-profit corporation. This takes them one step closer to becoming an IRS 501(c)(3) tax exempt corporation. As you all know, this is the easy part, but a step in the right direction! Check the Preservation page on my web site http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ for more info. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:01:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re:Covered Hoppers --part1_169.fec14a7.2a526372_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm about 3/4 of the way through with my F&C H30a. It's a real nice kit but there is a bit of work to be done on the roof to match the prototype. From all of the pictures I've seen (Summer '02 Keystone and April '01 Mainline Modeler) the roof (except for the seams) and the hatches are both flat. The grinder and sanding sticks take care of raised sections of the roof but it's added work. Please correct me if I am mistaken about the prototype roof layout. The Summer Keystone was the first time I got a good look at the load instruction plate layout. Does anyone make Load Instruction Plates or Trust Plates in HO scale. Since they are painted the same color as the car, a flat piece of styrene and a decal doesn't cut it. Rick --part1_169.fec14a7.2a526372_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm about 3/4 of the way through with my F&C H30a.  It's a real nice kit but there is a bit of work to be done on the roof to match the prototype. From all of the pictures I've seen (Summer '02 Keystone and April '01 Mainline Modeler) the roof (except for the seams) and the hatches are both flat.  The grinder and sanding sticks take care of raised sections of the roof but it's added work.  Please correct me if I am mistaken about the prototype roof layout.

The Summer Keystone was the first time I got a good look at the load instruction plate layout.  Does anyone make Load Instruction Plates or Trust Plates in HO scale.  Since they are painted the same color as the car, a flat piece of styrene and a decal doesn't cut it.  

Rick --part1_169.fec14a7.2a526372_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 21:21:56 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Update Greetings to the List, Well its true. There are trees falling at the Curve. The guys have already cleared a large part of the first window on the east side of the curve. I was up to the Curve with my son over the Weekend and I must say its a great start . In these windows the trees and brush are totally removed. There will also be a window on the west side of the curve. After the windows are cut the rest will be topped . This should be done in another 2-3 weeks. I know everyone is waiting to see it when the trees are down. I can't wait!!! We have set the date for our first fundraising event. July 20th will be the first annual Boxcar BBQ held on the grounds of the museum. It will feature a Chicken BBQ with all the fixings as well as a Health Screening booth set up by the medical group where I practice, Blair Medical Associates. We are working on some entertainment as well. There is not a time set yet and more details will be forthcoming. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up. The next event will be on August 17th. It will be a kind of Railroad theme Antique Roadshow type event. We are also hoping to have some Railroad antique or Railroadania dealers there as well. We are currently working out the details on this as well. If you have some cool stuff to show off or want appraised this is the place to do it. If any of you out there would be interested in setting up a table or 2 or more to sell railroadania please email me. We have not yet set prices for tables yet, I can tell you that we will have indoor space in Building B (the origional museum) and outdoor space if you have a tent and want to set up outside. Railfest is the third event. It will not include any shop tours this year at all. We are working hard to come up with some cool programming for in the yard and in Downtown Altoona. Bennett Levin's E8's are slated to make another appearance this year. There will be long distance trips from Harrisburg to Altoona on Sat morning and return Sunday evening. Coach and Private Varnish. New this year will be an Altoona to Pittsburgh and return excursion . It will depart Altoona Sat afternoon after the last Curve trip and return on Sunday morning. Overnight accomidations in Pittsburgh will be included . We may have some program in Pittsburgh as well for the evening. Details and prices will be forthcoming soon. Plan to come and Ride the train and take it all in. Building B will also have some new displays for Railfest. It should be a good time. Thanks for reading this LONG post. Will continue to update as things happen. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Railfest? Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 07:44:29 -0400 Group, What are the dates of railfest this year? Thanks Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 08:11:40 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29 photo data review - BX and otherwise In a message dated 6/10/02 5:39:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billlane@comcast.net writes: > Hi Rick, > > I am only interested in cars that would have been in over the road service. > Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the receptacle have deemed it to be > for more static storage at that point? When you see the categories, I think > you will understand what I am looking for. > > Thanks > Bill > Hi Bill, Thanks for sending me your data for comparison. I really appreciate your recording of paint date lines, built dates, and whether the lower sides have been patched. I've entered parts of your X29 spreadsheet info into my MS Access index of photographs, and am returning to you an Excel image of all my 124 records on X29 boxcars. This includes cars in original revenue freight configuration, plus cars rebuilt to express box (BX), work car/work equipment, or company materials service cars. All the X29 freight rebuilds (e.g. X29B, D, F, G, L) are of course omitted. You'll have fun sorting this Excel worksheet by: 1. carnumber/change description (puts items in numerical order) 2. letcode/year (puts different paint schemes in order of the photo date or weight date if legible) 3. refloc/reftitle/refpage (sorts by the source of photo) I know some of the codes I use will not be sensible to you. Be aware: 1. X in letcode means no photo (teXt only). 2. UK is my program's internal code for Plain Keystone (PK) lettering. 3. YSD is Youngstown Steel Door 4. ELR means an electric light receptacle is visible in the photo, to the left of the door. Notes on the records you sent me: 1. I didn't have sources of these photos, so you're tentatively labelled as the source. 2. Nearly all your 12 car numbers fit in number series that I can verify. 544009 is an exception, but I don't have an ORER right around 1942 to check. Also, your 10866 lies in no series I was aware of, but I recognize the dreadnaught end as being characteristic of cars in 100000-103324, so I've tentatively entered it as 100866. In rechecking the photos in the Color Guides, I see that one or two of the company service or MoW cars have the extra handrails+sill stirrups characteristic of X29 BX cars -- which confirms your earlier suspicion that some of those cars had been in express service first. Similarly, the Conrail X29 company service car you emailed me about earlier had these extra appliances and was obviously a BX first. You will also note the "electric light receptacle" to the left of the door on some cars in the Color Guides -- one of them even has the stencil still visible. When so equipped, this receptacle was used to connect to the female end of an extension cord to light the car's interior when loading/unloading -- a lot of this work took place at night. FWIW, somewhere I have (as yet unindexed) additional slides of other "ELR" BX cars, taken out of service in the 70's and 80's in Columbus, Fort Wayne, and other places. I'll try to dig these out before we go 'round again. Coincidentally -- had anyone noticed that PRR CG1 and CG3 both use the same photo of a freight X29 painted in the elusive SK1a scheme? Apparently the paint in that shot is brand new (1954). Also notice that several of the X29 BX's in this index are 4-digit but have dreadnaught ends. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure these are cars from the 100,000 series, built 1932 or later, which were then converted to BX (express box) configuration. All the evidence I have says all X29 BX's were converted from cars first used in freight service, and I have no evidence that makes me think any of these X29 BX's were converted or renumbered back to revenue freight service. Naturally, I'm responsible for all goofs, omissions, and errors of interpretation in this data. But this should at the very least give you a much larger body of photos to examine. Naturally, I'd appreciate hearing from you about any item I've recorded that you find is in error. When we've cleaned this info up some more, we can share it with our listmates and solicit still more photo listings. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Where to start? Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 8:48:30 -0500 I just recently moved into a new house and am trying to plan my unfinished basement. The area is roughly 22' by 30', so I should have enough room to work with! I'm looking for input as to track, code 83 or code 100? Would time frame be an issue for track used? Not sure what years I would model right now or what area. Thinking of my home town of Pittsburgh though. Any help would be appreciated. Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Where to start? Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:35:08 -0400 Patrick, Judging by the rail sizes you mention, one makes the assumption you are talking about building an HO model railroad. There ARE other scales you know. Code 100 wouild be about the same height as the 152 Lb. rail used on some curves by the PRR, but Code 83, at about 130 lb. rail height, would be far more representative of most PRR main line trackage from the 1920's to January 31, 1968. Actually, you could build a far better representation of part of the Pittsburgh area in that space in N scale! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: [PRR] Where to start? > I just recently moved into a new house and am trying to plan my unfinished basement. The area is roughly 22' by 30', so I should have enough room to work with! I'm looking for input as to track, code 83 or code 100? Would time frame be an issue for track used? Not sure what years I would model right now or what area. Thinking of my home town of Pittsburgh though. Any help would be appreciated. > > > Patrick > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 09:35:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Update From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Andy It is good that you are planning fund raising events at the Museum, but be forewarned, based on our experience at the Galveston RR Museum, that the first event often brings in a large amount of money, but those following bring in much less. On our first one we netted 30K, but we have made as little 5K profit on some events after that. 5 K is not much money for all the time and energy that goes into planning fund raising events. And, I hope you are not using high priced fund raisers to promote these events. Long before I got involved, the Museum once spent 70K on a fund raiser and raised 20K. One of the reasons it is in financial troubles now. Fund raisers are good for filling in short term needs. I strongly recommend you guys consider adding programs that will bring in kids - kids are your long term lifeline. Get them hooked and they will be back as adults, bringing their kids and grandkids with them. And that is where part of your long term survival strategy should lie. In an earlier post I mentioned we started a Boy Scout Railroading Merit Badge program. This should be volunteer run to keep from using sparse staff on the program. Once established, make it known to each group that attends that you are open to Eagle Scout projects - we had an Eagle Scout re-deck our DRGW flat car for his project. I will be happy to supply you, and anyone else on the list who is interested in starting one, the files on the merit badge program. Although we have not done it yet, we have on the drawing board a Thomas the Tank Engine program for young kids to be held on Saturday mornings. The idea is for parents to drop off their kids for a couple of hours while they run errands, and the kids read train related books or watch videos, all under the supervision of several adults (who, we hope, are at least somewhat interested in trains). Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:39:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Where to start? Patrick sez, >I just recently moved into a new house and am trying to plan my unfinished >basement. The area is roughly 22' by 30', so I should have enough room to >work with! I'm looking for input as to track, code 83 or code 100? Would >time frame be an issue for track used? Not sure what years I would model >right now or what area. Thinking of my home town of Pittsburgh though. Any >help would be appreciated. Whoa! Slow down!! You're not sure where you're going to model and you're worried about track code? You've got the cabin in front of the consist! First, I ASSUME you're going to model in HO...bad news here is that while 22' x 30' is a nice space, when you start planning, you'll find it isn't all that big, especially when modeling a big city terminal like Pittsburgh or a high capacity main line! You need to work you're way through some questions first. For help in layout planning, I reccomend the Layout Design Special Interest Group's Primer (which I help maintain) on line at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/LDSIGprimer/TOC.html To answer your question, code 100 scales out close to the 152 lbs rail used on the heaviest PRR mainlines. It should be used sparingly. Code 83 scales out to a more modest weight rail used on most PRR lines. Codes 70 and 55 are appropriate for most branches, sidings and yard track. Some basic questions you need to answer in the process of designing a layout 1) Location...consider a branch line like the Octararo...huge model potential with lots of switching, short trains, mixed trains, doodlebugs...you'll get lots more bang for the buck than trying to squeeze a mainline into your space. Oh yeah, and excellent documentation! 2) Era (this can wait, but track arrangements change with the years, so you might at least have a clue so that you can pick the track arrangement). There are great things about many different PRR eras and most of us want to collect all sorts of stuff, but I realized that there were soooo many neat things in just one era that you can't have them all, so trying multiple eras is even more futile (that said, I still pick up an "anachronism" now and then..like the RC F38 or an FF2) 3) Equipment...so you want to run T1s eh? THINK minimum radius...even for smaller steamers, electrics or diseasels, 18" looks AWFUL...try 25-30"...for the big stuff like 80'+ passenger equipment, think 30-36" or higher. 4) Operation...are you a railfan (boring IMHO) or an operator...what is the operating potential of the area you are considering? 5) Train length...so you want to model the mainline eh? An 80 car train of 40' coal hoppers scales out to around 40' in HO! Lets use selective compression to make that train reasonable...say 40 cars (20 feet!) or 30 cars (15') and your 22' x 30' room is still a LOT smaller than you thought. This is particularly important as town seperation (minimum ~1.5 x train length) and passing siding length are governed by max train length! The good news is that there are lots of REALLY interesting locations and approaches that can be taken. Consider just modeling a terminal! What action, what activity! Until his switch to n-scale, our listmeister in absentia was planning just that with Harrisburg (and it would have made a GREAT layout, but he wanted to be able to run trains on the main...) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] use of PRR logo Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C221B3.E5672540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within = it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that = it is not a big deal to use it?? Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C221B3.E5672540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 The newly formed (Lines West) = Crestline=20 Roundhouse Preservation Society.........would like to incorporate the = PRR logo=20 somewhere within it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's = use??=20 Seems I have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take = it that=20 it is not a big deal to use it??
Earl Myers, BoD, = CRPS
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C221B3.E5672540-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] use of PRR logo Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:33:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C221E6.2C805DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, On a related note, I would like to buy a T-shirt with a simple PRR keystone, but I cannot seem to find one anywhere. Is there some restriction out there for some reason? Thanks, Keith -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Earl Myers Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:33 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] use of PRR logo Gents; The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that it is not a big deal to use it?? Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C221E6.2C805DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,
On a=20 related note, I would like to buy a T-shirt with a simple PRR keystone, = but I=20 cannot seem to find one anywhere. Is there some restriction out there = for some=20 reason?
Thanks,
Keith
 
 
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Earl=20 Myers
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:33 AM
To: PRR=20 Talk
Subject: [PRR] use of PRR = logo

Gents;
 The newly formed (Lines West) = Crestline=20 Roundhouse Preservation Society.........would like to incorporate the = PRR logo=20 somewhere within it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding = it's use??=20 Seems I have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I = take it=20 that it is not a big deal to use it??
Earl Myers, BoD,=20 CRPS
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C221E6.2C805DC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] use of PRR logo Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 17:12:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C221EB.9EEA94C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Earl, I am NOT a copyright lawyer, but I believe the PRR logo is considered = "in the public domain". Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Earl Myers=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 10:33 AM Subject: [PRR] use of PRR logo Gents; The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within = it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that = it is not a big deal to use it?? Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C221EB.9EEA94C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Earl,
 
I am NOT a copyright lawyer, but I believe the PRR = logo is=20 considered "in the public domain".
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Earl = Myers=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 = 10:33=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] use of PRR = logo

Gents;
 The newly formed (Lines West) = Crestline=20 Roundhouse Preservation Society.........would like to incorporate the = PRR logo=20 somewhere within it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding = it's use??=20 Seems I have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I = take it=20 that it is not a big deal to use it??
Earl Myers, BoD,=20 CRPS
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C221EB.9EEA94C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 19:53:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Where to start? Patrick wrote: "I just recently moved into a new house and am trying to plan my unfinished basement. The area is roughly 22' by 30', so I should have enough room to work with! I'm looking for input as to track, code 83 or code 100? Would time frame be an issue for track used? Not sure what years I would model right now or what area. Thinking of my home town of Pittsburgh though. Any help would be appreciated" ----------------- Greetings Patrick & folks, Sounds to me like a pretty decent sized layout space you have to work with, certainly more than enough for one fella to work on. I don't know what particular era you're thinking of, but by definition it has to be pre-1968, which means lots of heavy industry anywhere in the Pittsburgh area. Also a lot of attractive hilly/mountainous scenery. Just having those two elements sets a nice Pennsy mood. I should admit that a lot my personal image of the PRR was fostered by many passenger train rides through that area enroute from the midwest to Philley, and that region left a very lasting impression in my memories. I almost think you should look over those packs of prints made from the old Pennsy calenders: these give a strong PRR mystique, unlike the aura of any other railroad, at least to me. Consider, too, the terrain's effect on train watching in that area. Not a whole lot of track length is visable in most places, what with all the curves and sloped scernery, a nice bonus in building a layout as an entire train is seldom visible at one time. A couple week's ago I had to drive over from Altoona to Johnstown to swap rented cars while on vacation. I was struck with the descent into Johnstown and the city's setting: a river in a narrow valley, steep mountain slopes confining the city, railroad and river; narrow and often curivng or bending streets. Living as I do in the Midwest, I was absolutely fascinated by the modeling potential of this area. I could easily envisage tuscan red passenger trains cruising through the valley and lashups of Baldwins or FM's lugging coal and mineral trains, shifters working tight industry trackage. Fascinated enough, in fact, to take a second look at my currently-rebuilding layout, but that's another storey. I think if I had you space I might consider dedicating one 22 foot end wall to staging and the rest to recreating a place like Johnstown. Even using a good share of a 30 foot wall for Conemaugh Yard, the terrain is scenic enough even in town to create a fine mountainous layout. Think I'd give priority to the Main Line; use generous radius in the corners so that the trackage was out from the wall corners a good ways and use this space for urban/industrial developement. Doing the old around the walls shelves with a penninsula into the center of the room would be a natural. On a glancing look consider this: 3 foot wall shelves plus 4 foot aisles still leaves 8 feet of width for the penninsula, way more than enough. You could use 36' radius curves and still have plenty of room. (Wish I had your space: I've got more length but far less width). I'm not sure how important the code on your mainline is, but I think I'd go with 100 on the mail lines just to emphasis it's status, though code 83 would do if you built up it's ballast depth enough. As a practicle note, using 83 on the main forces a person to use code 70/75/55 on lesser trackage, which is more expensive than going code 100/83/70/55. I wouldn't even look a N scale due to the much lesser selection of much critical Pennsy stuff such as engines, freight cars, passenger cars and structures, passenger and freight trucks, etc, but that's a personal choice of course.(nice as some N scale stuff is, please consider who makes Pennsy steam engine kits in N scale, it's equivlent to ECW's four versions of the P70, Baldwin switchers, Keystones buildings and trucks, Westerfield and F&C's freight car kits, the old Walthers Pennsy-usable Pullmans, MDC passenger trucks, Bethlehem passenger cars, NERS convserion parts, balloon and arch passenger roofs, signal bridges, etc). Anway, that's my first impression of your potential situation. Have fun! Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:22:56 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Website Greetings to the list, I have gotten several inquiries as to where to send donations and I thought I would post our website address here. It gives details on how to volunteer and where to send any donations. While your checking out the site, make sure you take the virtual tour. By the way. The guy standing in front of the K4 backhead is ME.. That is my wife Christine and our son Ryan. Ryan is a foamer at the young age of 4. He is my Railroading Buddy. Thank You. www.railroadcity.com Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:24:23 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222A4.F644E98C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Just because the Listmeister is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should come to a screeching halt. So to get it moving, what year did the "_______ View" tail cars of the Broadway switch from the Keystone drumhead to the rectangular sign with the fluorescent light? Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222A4.F644E98C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Listers,
 
 Just because the Listmeister is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should come to a screeching halt.  So to get it moving, what year did the "_______ View" tail cars of the Broadway switch from the Keystone drumhead to the rectangular sign with the fluorescent light?
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C222A4.F644E98C-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:39:58 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222A7.E322E856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Just because the Listmeister is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should come to a screeching halt. So to get it moving, saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will pull 75 cars. When we had it for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we decided it's pulling power was highly suspect. Do you think that they will make the soundboards available for sale? I could see buying a couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C222A7.E322E856 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Listers,
 
Just because the Listmeister is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should come to a screeching halt.  So to get it moving, saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will pull 75 cars.  When we had it for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we decided it's pulling power was highly suspect.  Do you think that they will make the soundboards available for sale?  I could see buying a couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's.
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C222A7.E322E856-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:01:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Broadway tailsign change In a message dated 7/3/02 10:33:34 AM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << So to get it moving, what year did the "_______ View" tail cars of the Broadway switch from the Keystone drumhead to the rectangular sign with the fluorescent light? >> If we did the subject line right, this was discussed and may be in the archives. Otherwise, I guess we can always use updated information. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:09:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Chris sez: >Saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will >pull 75 cars. When we had it for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we >decided it's pulling power was highly suspect. Do you think that they >will make the soundboards available for sale? I could see buying a >couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's. Yeah, I saw that too. Jerry mentioned that Broadway 1) knew about the problem at the PRRT&HS meeting (and thought about not letting us see the loco) and 2) had fixed it. Of course, the add only says "75 cars", not "75 NMRA weighted cars" ;^)...that said, I am EAGERLY awaiting my 4 reserved M1as. As for the sound boards, I haven't heard a peep about them being available seperately, but it sure would be nice for Soundtraxx to have competition. BTW, I noticed that the Dallee sound boards appear to have been redesigned to a lower profile. This would be a VERY good thing as the bloody things were HUGE before. Maybe they've even got multiplex sound too? (Previously, only one sound at time, so the chuff goes away when the whistle blows etc..really annoying and a good reason not to use them) The one thing going for Dallee is that they have a number of different PRR whistles that are supposedly correct. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:08:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports --part1_10.2138d80b.2a5489ab_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am glad this came up! I was looking at the M1 and the T1, but there are no photos of the actually model anywhere!!! I just cant pay that much without atleast seeing a picture! To those who have seen the M1, what so you think?? And why hasn't Model railroader or someone gotten a hold of one to test it?! I emailed Broadway limited with my thoughts, and did not get anywhere there. To bad to, because Brass is out of the question for me ($$), but with a decoder and sound I was willing to buy one an M1 and T1. If I cant see it or a picture, and haven't heard anything about how it runs there's just no way I am going to pay that money. And I dont suspect one of my local hobby shops will carry one! I would love to hear from anyone who saw the J! Or knows anything else about these engines! Is there a way to search the archives on this list?? Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_10.2138d80b.2a5489ab_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I am glad this came up!  I was looking at the M1 and the T1, but there are no photos of the actually model anywhere!!!  I just cant pay that much without atleast seeing a picture!

To those who have seen the M1, what so you think??  And why hasn't Model railroader or someone gotten a hold of one to test it?!  I emailed Broadway limited with my thoughts, and did not get anywhere there.

To bad to, because Brass is out of the question for me ($$), but with a decoder and sound I was willing to buy one an M1 and T1.  If I cant see it or a picture, and haven't heard anything about how it runs there's just no way I am going to pay that money.  And I dont suspect one of my local hobby shops will carry one!

I would love to hear from anyone who saw the J! Or knows anything else about these engines!

Is there a way to search the archives on this list??

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_10.2138d80b.2a5489ab_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 13:28:21 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports --------------462A66AF961AF2F0F3DB36DD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, It has been my impression that the M1, T1, et al are so far just good intentions. The only item BLI has produced (even as a pilot) is the NYC J. That said, I don't think they are guilty of anything more heinous than pre-mature announcement - a very common marketing ploy. They got our attention, didn't they? Besides which without announcing the M1 and T1 how could they possibly explain a company called BROADWAY LIMITED selling a NYC J?? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote: > > I am glad this came up! I was looking at the M1 and the T1, but there > are no photos of the actually model anywhere!!! I just cant pay that > much without atleast seeing a picture! > > To those who have seen the M1, what so you think?? And why hasn't > Model railroader or someone gotten a hold of one to test it?! I > emailed Broadway limited with my thoughts, and did not get anywhere > there. > > To bad to, because Brass is out of the question for me ($$), but with > a decoder and sound I was willing to buy one an M1 and T1. If I cant > see it or a picture, and haven't heard anything about how it runs > there's just no way I am going to pay that money. And I dont suspect > one of my local hobby shops will carry one! > > I would love to hear from anyone who saw the J! Or knows anything else > about these engines! > > Is there a way to search the archives on this list?? > > Mike Schock > List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group > Sandusky, Ohio > Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --------------462A66AF961AF2F0F3DB36DD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike,

It has been my impression that the M1, T1, et al are so far just good intentions.  The only item BLI has produced (even as a pilot) is the NYC J.  That said, I don't think they are guilty of anything more heinous than pre-mature announcement - a very common marketing ploy.  They got our attention, didn't they?  Besides which without announcing the M1 and T1 how could they possibly explain a company called BROADWAY LIMITED selling a NYC J??

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote:

 
I am glad this came up!  I was looking at the M1 and the T1, but there are no photos of the actually model anywhere!!!  I just cant pay that much without atleast seeing a picture!

To those who have seen the M1, what so you think??  And why hasn't Model railroader or someone gotten a hold of one to test it?!  I emailed Broadway limited with my thoughts, and did not get anywhere there.

To bad to, because Brass is out of the question for me ($$), but with a decoder and sound I was willing to buy one an M1 and T1.  If I cant see it or a picture, and haven't heard anything about how it runs there's just no way I am going to pay that money.  And I dont suspect one of my local hobby shops will carry one!

I would love to hear from anyone who saw the J! Or knows anything else about these engines!

Is there a way to search the archives on this list??

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period

--------------462A66AF961AF2F0F3DB36DD-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:39:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports --part1_193.944e89b.2a5490bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LOL so true Andy. Well, they definitely got my attention :) I went from my most expensive engine being the Athearn Genesis 2-8-2 when they first came out to considering a $200 or $300 engine :) BUT I would be glad to pay that amount for a nice sounding, running , and looking plastic steamer :)) Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_193.944e89b.2a5490bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LOL so true Andy.  Well, they definitely got my attention :) I went from  my most expensive engine being the Athearn Genesis 2-8-2 when they first came out to considering a $200 or $300 engine :) BUT I would be glad to pay that amount for a nice sounding, running , and looking plastic steamer :))

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_193.944e89b.2a5490bf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:24:31 -0400
I think we are being a little too harsh on BLI. We need to remember that it was a pre-production model that was sent to the convention. I seem to remember a post that they knew about the sample's lack of pulling power. Later there was a post about a more recent sample that pulled much better. They did go out on a limb by sending the first sample to the convention, it seems a bit unfair to crucify them for it. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they have rectified the problems. That would explain why a model that was due out in April is not yet here. While I do not have a J on order, I do have a M1b and a Class A on order.
Eric
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 14:15:17 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] BLI locomotives: some answers Hello all: I have one of the two layouts that Jerry test ran the pre-production model on during the PRRH&TS open house tour. To try and answer some of your questions: 1) BLI did push the ship dates back a little for the NYC J and PRR M1. This was due to the pulling problems. My understanding is that the J will ship late summer, the M1 late fall (this year). 2) There is a "second" pre-production model of the J. It has been sent to the labs for testing. That's where the 75 car number came from (I've also been told 17 cars on 4% grade). It is my understanding that a completely different, redesigned gear box is now being used. The first pre-production pulled 5 cars up my 2.1% grade... 3) The sound system is actually made by QSI. This is the same company that made MTH's Proto-Sound until recently. It has been rumored that QSI is considering a stand-alone version of the sound system in the future. My only "problem" with this sound is that you can not seperately control the elements as you can in Soundtraxx (you can't make the bell quieter, the horn louder, and keep the exhaust chuff the same). All adjustments are made via a screw on the underside of the tender (like MTH did)... This sound was the highlight of the new loco. It sounded REAL, REAL good (better than soundtraxx IMHO). 4) The NYC J details were good, but not great. It is a step below P2K Heritage or the new Rivarossi Allegheny. It is on par with Bachmann Spectrum or perhaps slightly better in some areas. I am not a NYC fan, but somebody who is commented that the detail looked dead on accurate while it was here... 5) If you are looking to buy a BLI locomotive, Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossing site's Merchandise Service carries all of them (unsolicited plug since Jerry's out of town). If there is anything else I can answer as I have seen the pre-productoin model, please let me know. Note: I tried sending this once before, but noticed (after I hit send) that I had the address wrong, so I apoligize to the person who got both versions. Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Railworks flats Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:22:55 -0700 Hi folks, On this subject, have any of you received any of the new Railworks flats (F25, F42, etc.)? Or the new Rail Classics F40? Any comments? Thanks, and a happy 4th! Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:55:32 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports WOW...I keep hearing the manufacturers say that the average model railroader is clueless about the industry, and some of y'all seem bent on proving it! 1) Broadway lent a DEMO to Jerry so we could have SOME idea of the detail and sound. They KNEW it didn't pull worth a damn and took the risk of demoing anyway as they were working on a fix. We did the right thing in letting them know the problems, and they did the right thing in FIXING it. Lets reserve our complaints about pulling power until the model is released and we can see it and instead thank Broadway for having the guts to let us see the preproduction sample...lets hope they do the same thing with the M and the T so that if there are any errors, they can be fixed before production too. 2) No plastic Locomotive will EVER pull as well as a metal one, so stop hammering that point..."Ye canna defy the laws of physics Captain"!, to quote Mr. Scott. Go ahead and play with your Bowsers with their incorrect tenders, misplaced and out of scale features and hamburger sized rivits...its your choice...I have a few and will keep them as long as there aren't better alternatives (but note that a Bowser + superdetail kit + repower kit + sound decoder costs MORE than a Broadway loco, so don't be bitchin to me about PRICE) 3) Broadway is a new company, so they basically have no track record. While I'm not saying we have to implicitly trust every statement they make, sometime we need to give them the benefit of the doubt, or at least postpone that doubt until it is reasonable. If we don't do that, we'll NEVER see new companies interested in bringing new (revolutionary) products out on a large scale. 4) So you want someone to make your favorite loco model of a single road (albeit a big road) prototype, you want it super detailed and you don't want to have to make a reservation? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You'll be waiting a LONG time then since most manufacturers out there are smart enough to realize that they can't afford a sales failure. Essentially, you should think of Broadway as making an affordable brass locomotive in the media of choice...styrene (which, as many of you HAVE noticed, can be more highly detailed than either brass or zamac). If there aren't enough reservations, the model won't get produced...witness Rail Classics' E6. You still don't HAVE to make a reservation...you can hope that enough of the REST of us do reserve enough models that it will get made and that maybe you can pick up one of the "surplus"...Maybe you'll get lucky and the supply will overwhelm demand (like P2K 0-8-0s which sell for a fraction of list from the discounters or on eBay) and then maybe not...(there is always eBay, where a kadee Rutland PS1 went for over $100 recently). Sheeesh, I need a vacation Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] (EQ) Request for Drawings Lists, This Saturday, finally, the Beaver Valley Jct Chapter of the NRHS will start restoration of the Clubs's PRR N5c 477974. We looked the car over last week to get an idea what we want to do. First is the removal of rivits (lots of em) from the bottom sides so that large areas of rusted siding can be cut away and new metal welded in then rerivited in place. While looking at the car we decided we would like to remove the PC/CR era steps. The original PRR Pedestal Steps were removed when the newer, longer, Barber Bentondorf trucks were installed. What we would like to do is fabricate these Pedestal Steps from steel (originals were cast) to the "likness" of the originals. What the group would like to have are some PRR drawings of these steps so we can have the measurments. Is there anyone here who has such drawings that can be copied for our use. No big hurry as there is plenty of body work down the road. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 17:59:24 +0000 From: hank m Subject: [PRR] off topic notice Hello all. As i've mentioned to Ken Meyer.... A little over a week ago i had to crash my hard drive on purpose to get rid of a worm in my system. I've lost many of the e-mails and addresses from some of the folks here because of this. If anyone here was in contact with me via e-mail or ICQ (13559398) and still wishes to keep in contact please write or page me off list. Sorry for this short Non-PRR notice. Now back to something more fun to talk about. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:24:06 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C222BE.D1377B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Latest dealer info I have seen indicates the NYC Hudson will now be here = sometime in August. No word on subsequent models but I would assume they = will be delayed accordingly. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Eric Lauterbach To: prr-talk Date: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:32 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway limited imports I think we are being a little too harsh on BLI. We need to remember = that it was a pre-production model that was sent to the convention. I = seem to remember a post that they knew about the sample's lack of = pulling power. Later there was a post about a more recent sample that = pulled much better. They did go out on a limb by sending the first = sample to the convention, it seems a bit unfair to crucify them for it. = I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they = have rectified the problems. That would explain why a model that was due = out in April is not yet here. While I do not have a J on order, I do = have a M1b and a Class A on order. Eric = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C222BE.D1377B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Latest dealer info I have seen indicates the NYC = Hudson will=20 now be here sometime in August. No word on subsequent models but I would = assume=20 they will be delayed accordingly.
Frank Brua
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Eric Lauterbach <ealauterbach@earthlink.net= >
To:=20 prr-talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Wednesday, July 03, 2002 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] = Broadway=20 limited imports

I think we are being a little too harsh on BLI. We need to = remember that=20 it was a pre-production model that was sent to the convention. I seem = to=20 remember a post that they knew about the sample's lack of pulling = power. Later=20 there was a post about a more recent sample that pulled much better. = They did=20 go out on a limb by sending the first sample to the convention, it = seems a bit=20 unfair to crucify them for it. I am willing to give them the benefit = of the=20 doubt and believe that they have rectified the problems. That would = explain=20 why a model that was due out in April is not yet here. While I do not = have a J=20 on order, I do have a M1b and a Class A on order.
=
Eric
----------------------------------------------------------= -------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C222BE.D1377B40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 16:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] (EQ) Request for Drawings Lists, This Saturday, finally, the Beaver Valley Jct Chapter of the NRHS will start restoration of the Clubs's PRR N5c 477974. We looked the car over last week to get an idea what we want to do. First is the removal of rivits (lots of em) from the bottom sides so that large areas of rusted siding can be cut away and new metal welded in then rerivited in place. While looking at the car we decided we would like to remove the PC/CR era steps. The original PRR Pedestal Steps were removed when the newer, longer, Barber Bentondorf trucks were installed. What we would like to do is fabricate these Pedestal Steps from steel (originals were cast) to the "likness" of the originals. What the group would like to have are some PRR drawings of these steps so we can have the measurments. Is there anyone here who has such drawings that can be copied for our use. No big hurry as there is plenty of body work down the road. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 19:29:15 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports --=====================_4930432==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Bruce and Chris, I operated the J1 during the convention at Jeff Warner's layout while I imagined it was the M1a coming out in December. BLI has addressed the weight issue and has taken steps to improve the tracking ability. The loco was a pre-production model and Jerry did say they knew about the poor adhesion but wanted people to see and HEAR the locomotive. The sound was excellent and although a bit quieter than I would like, the whistle was fun to "play" I could actually quill it and the exhaust had a throaty quality the Soundtraxx sorely lacks. Their exhaust is reminiscent of sandpaper rubbing together unless you install a 12" subwoofer in the tender. I can't wait for the M1a. Soundtraxx will have some competition. What the heck, the J1 costs little more than a Soundtraxx decoder after you pay for a good speaker. Buy the loco and use the decoder. The sound is better Nick Kulp >Subject: >From: "Bruce F. Smith" >Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:09:21 -0500 > >Chris sez: > >Saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will > >pull 75 cars. When we had it for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we > >decided it's pulling power was highly suspect. Do you think that they > >will make the soundboards available for sale? I could see buying a > >couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's. > >Yeah, I saw that too. Jerry mentioned that Broadway 1) knew about the >problem at the PRRT&HS meeting (and thought about not letting us see the >loco) and 2) had fixed it. Of course, the add only says "75 cars", not "75 >NMRA weighted cars" ;^)...that said, I am EAGERLY awaiting my 4 reserved >M1as. > >As for the sound boards, I haven't heard a peep about them being available >seperately, but it sure would be nice for Soundtraxx to have competition. >BTW, I noticed that the Dallee sound boards appear to have been redesigned >to a lower profile. This would be a VERY good thing as the bloody things >were HUGE before. Maybe they've even got multiplex sound too? (Previously, >only one sound at time, so the chuff goes away when the whistle blows >etc..really annoying and a good reason not to use them) The one thing >going for Dallee is that they have a number of different PRR whistles that >are supposedly correct. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > --=====================_4930432==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi Bruce and Chris,

I operated the J1 during the convention at Jeff Warner's layout while I imagined it was the M1a coming out in December. BLI has addressed the weight issue and has taken steps to improve the tracking ability. The loco was a pre-production model and Jerry did say they knew about the poor adhesion but wanted people to see and HEAR the locomotive. The sound was excellent and although a bit quieter than I would like, the whistle was fun to "play" I could actually quill it and the exhaust had a throaty quality the Soundtraxx sorely lacks. Their exhaust is reminiscent of sandpaper rubbing together unless you install a 12" subwoofer in the tender. I can't wait for the M1a. Soundtraxx will have some competition. What the heck, the J1 costs little more than a Soundtraxx decoder after you pay for a good speaker. Buy the loco and use the decoder. The sound is better <VBG>

Nick Kulp

Subject:
From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 11:09:21 -0500

Chris sez:
>Saw the ad in August MR for the NYC  (the horror) J. It says that it will
>pull 75 cars.  When we had it for the  PRRT&HS meeting I thought we
>decided it's pulling power was highly  suspect.  Do you think that they
>will make the soundboards available for  sale?  I could see buying a
>couple of the M1 boards for my Westside  M's. 

Yeah, I saw that too.  Jerry mentioned that Broadway 1) knew about the
problem at the PRRT&HS meeting (and thought about not letting us see the
loco) and 2) had fixed it.  Of course, the add only says "75 cars", not "75
NMRA weighted cars" ;^)...that said, I am EAGERLY awaiting my 4 reserved
M1as.

As for the sound boards, I haven't heard a peep about them being available
seperately, but it sure would be nice for Soundtraxx to have competition.
BTW, I noticed that the Dallee sound boards appear to have been redesigned
to a lower profile.  This would be a VERY good thing as the bloody things
were HUGE before.  Maybe they've even got multiplex sound too? (Previously,
only one sound at time, so the chuff goes away when the whistle blows
etc..really annoying and a good reason not to use them)  The one thing
going for Dallee is that they have a number of different PRR whistles that
are supposedly correct.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
                           __
                          /  \
  __<+--+>________________\__/___   ____________________________________
 |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
 | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
 |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________|
 | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                        0-0-0


--=====================_4930432==.ALT-- X-SpamDetect: low: Possible Junk Mail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:13:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports In a message dated 7/3/02 7:37:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, caseyj@mail.igateway.com writes: << unless you install a 12" subwoofer in the tender. >> Can someone explain how you get a 12" speaker in an HO Tender - I think it would be a tough job in "O" scale - even 12mm (bit less than a 1/2") would be tight...... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 16:41:10 +0000 Didn't I also read somwhere that the J is delayed? I think I saw it in one of the ads. That would push the M's back further. One can only speculate if it is a detail part or a major issue. N. Bell > Chris sez: > >Saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will > >pull 75 cars. When we had it for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we > >decided it's pulling power was highly suspect. Do you think that they > >will make the soundboards available for sale? I could see buying a > >couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's. > > Yeah, I saw that too. Jerry mentioned that Broadway 1) knew about the > problem at the PRRT&HS meeting (and thought about not letting us see the > loco) and 2) had fixed it. Of course, the add only says "75 cars", not "75 > NMRA weighted cars" ;^)...that said, I am EAGERLY awaiting my 4 reserved > M1as. > > As for the sound boards, I haven't heard a peep about them being available > seperately, but it sure would be nice for Soundtraxx to have competition. > BTW, I noticed that the Dallee sound boards appear to have been redesigned > to a lower profile. This would be a VERY good thing as the bloody things > were HUGE before. Maybe they've even got multiplex sound too? (Previously, > only one sound at time, so the chuff goes away when the whistle blows > etc..really annoying and a good reason not to use them) The one thing > going for Dallee is that they have a number of different PRR whistles that > are supposedly correct. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:43:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2228F.4BF350A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris- I can't agree with you more. I also hope BLI to put out the soundboards seperately. From the review on the NYC J following the national convention, I refuse to forward any funds for a locomotive based on magazine ads and very poor pulling power. 75 cars? I find that very hard to believe. If I remember correctly from list postings, didnt the loco have difficulty pulling 15 passenger cars upgrade, then cars kept coming off the tail until it could manage about 10 or so? For those who put $ down, I wish you luck. I will catch the next batch. If not, my heart is content with Bowsers and Brass. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chany, Christopher Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:40 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Listers, Just because the Listmeister is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should come to a screeching halt. So to get it moving, saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will pull 75 cars. When we had it for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we decided it's pulling power was highly suspect. Do you think that they will make the soundboards available for sale? I could see buying a couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's. Chris Chany ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2228F.4BF350A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris-
 
I=20 can't agree with you more.  I also hope BLI to put out the = soundboards=20 seperately.  From the review on the NYC J following the national=20 convention, I refuse to forward any funds for a locomotive based on = magazine ads and very poor pulling power.  75 cars? I find that = very hard=20 to believe.  If I remember correctly from list postings, didnt the=20 loco have difficulty pulling 15 passenger cars upgrade, then = cars kept=20 coming off the tail until it could manage about 10 or = so?   For=20 those who put $ down, I wish you luck. I will catch the next = batch.  If=20 not, my heart is content with Bowsers and = Brass. 
 
Greg=20 V
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chany,=20 Christopher
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 11:40 = AM
To:=20 PRR Talk
Subject: [PRR] Broadway limited=20 imports

Listers,
 
Just because the=20 Listmeister is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should = come to a=20 screeching halt.  So to get it moving, saw the ad in August MR = for the=20 NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will pull 75 cars.  When we = had it=20 for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we decided it's pulling power = was highly=20 suspect.  Do you think that they will make the soundboards = available for=20 sale?  I could see buying a couple of the M1 boards for my = Westside=20 M's.
 
Chris=20 Chany
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2228F.4BF350A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] R-50 Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:59:17 -0400 Does anyone have drawing for a R-50 reefer. Need not be highly detailed, just the basic dimensions. Thank you Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 21:34:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Class P85R Budd Coaches From: John Sheets Does anybody know the road numbers for these cars? 60 Seats, Budd Built 1940s PRR Coach Class P85R Thnks John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:07:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports In a message dated 7/3/02 4:08:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << 3) Broadway is a new company, so they basically have no track record. While I'm not saying we have to implicitly trust every statement they make, sometime we need to give them the benefit of the doubt, or at least postpone that doubt until it is reasonable. If we don't do that, we'll NEVER see new companies interested in bringing new (revolutionary) products out on a large scale. >> Actually while the Broadway name is new the owners of the company have a long term track record in the industry. If you remember Oriental brass then you have seen past products from the same people. To me this is a big plus as they already have some idea of what they are getting into and how the average modeler reacts or at least how they used to react. -------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:01:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports --part1_17c.a96350f.2a55228a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I dont believe anyone was really knocking BLI, but maybe informing me of the demo they had (which I asked for). I am glad to hear they are aware of the problems and correcting them! THIS IS WHAT I WANTED TO HEAR! Like I responded to someone off list I think the M1 will make a great Christmas present to myself :)) Now lets move on, I just wanted some information on their models now I am ready to BUY! :) Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_17c.a96350f.2a55228a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

I dont believe anyone was really knocking BLI, but maybe informing me of the demo they had (which I asked for).  I am glad to hear they are aware of the problems and correcting them! THIS IS WHAT I WANTED TO HEAR!

Like I responded to someone off list I think the M1 will make a great Christmas present to myself :))

Now lets move on, I just wanted some information on their models now I am ready to BUY! :)

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_17c.a96350f.2a55228a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 02:02:26 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class P85R Budd Coaches John Sheets wrote: > > Does anybody know the road numbers for these cars? > > 60 Seats, Budd Built 1940s PRR Coach Class P85R > > Thnks > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Car Class Info Trucks P85R-Coach-85' Budd-1940 #4019-4023-Assign. to "South Wind"-Seats 60 rotate-recline 2DP5 P85R-Coach-85' Budd-1940 #4026-29,4046-55-Assign. to ACL-Seats 60 rotate-recline 2DP5 Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 07:44:12 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/04/02 --=====================_1139540==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >In a message dated 7/3/02 7:37:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >caseyj@mail.igateway.com writes: ><< unless you install a 12" subwoofer in the tender. >> >Can someone explain how you get a 12" speaker in an HO Tender - I think it >would be a tough job in "O" scale - even 12mm (bit less than a 1/2") would be >tight...... Obviously my statement was designed to be a sarcastic remark. It was meant to indicate that you CAN'T get decent exhaust sound from a Soundtraxx decoder. I apologize if my remark was too obscure to recognize as sarcasm. Although I have several Soundtraxx decoders I still find them lacking in true exhaust sound. Since I have worked at places like Bell Labs I can recognize someone bound for the engineering field . I will be more careful in the future. (My humble apologies to engineers I might have offended) Nick --=====================_1139540==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
In a message dated 7/3/02 7:37:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
caseyj@mail.igateway.com writes:
<< unless you install a 12" subwoofer in the tender. >>
Can someone explain how you get a 12" speaker in an HO Tender - I think it
would be a tough job in "O" scale - even 12mm (bit less than a 1/2") would be
tight......


Obviously my statement was designed to be a sarcastic remark. It was meant to indicate that you CAN'T get decent exhaust sound from a Soundtraxx decoder. I apologize if my remark was too obscure to recognize as sarcasm. Although I have several Soundtraxx decoders I still find them lacking in true exhaust sound. Since I have worked at places like Bell Labs I can recognize someone bound for the engineering field <VBG>. I will be more careful in the future. (My humble apologies to engineers I might have offended)

Nick



 --=====================_1139540==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:17:53 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/04/02 "Can someone explain how you get a 12" speaker in an HO Tender?" If one uses a G-scale 12" speaker, it should fit very nicely. Occasionally a left-handed monkey wrench or a henway is required to get the &%^**$# into the tender, especially it it's a smaller size tender like those used here on Delmarva. Jim McDaniel, hoping to get some trains rolling here in Delmarva soon. [The drywall in the garage trainroom/office is being hung this week!} ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:27:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Ken wrote: "Actually while the Broadway name is new the owners of the company have a long term track record in the industry. If you remember Oriental brass then you have seen past products from the same people. To me this is a big plus as they already have some idea of what they are getting into and how the average modeler reacts or at least how they used to react. -------------------- Ken McCorry -------------------------- Hmm, I've got some of their brass products from years ago, which if I recall was made in Korea. This leads me to ask, do anyone know where Broadway's plastic engines are being made: Korea or Red China? (This would make a big difference to my buying likelihood). Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 10:02:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8 4271 Headlight From: John Sheets In Schafer and Soloman's book, Pennsylvania RR , there is a photo on ppg 35 of PRR E-8 4271 at St Louis. The engine appears to have a double headlight. The second headlight, or whatever it is, is on the door above the keystone and is painted over. Is it what it appears to be? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:06:19 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C22342.7157FA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Barry: It will be interesting where they come from. The first P2K steam engine (= 1st run) came from Austria. The Athearn Genesis steam engines are a joint= effort with Samhongsa in South Korea. I think that Rivarossi's new Alleg= any C&O steam engine is made in Italy. In sum, Red China is not the only place where these engines came be made.= Probably a sizable part of the cost of these engines is the labor in ass= embling them. Since most modelers have experience in building plastic mod= els, perhaps these plastic steam engines can be offered in kit form. That= would not only reduce the sales price, but could mean that the manufactu= ring of the kit could be in America. Happy 4th of July to all! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: BPX29@aol.com Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:36 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports =20 Ken wrote: "Actually while the Broadway name is new the owners of the company have a long term track record in the industry. If you remember Oriental brass th= en you have seen past products from the same people. To me this is a big plu= s as they already have some idea of what they are getting into and how the ave= rage modeler reacts or at least how they used to react. -------------------- = Ken McCorry -------------------------- Hmm, I've got some of their brass products from years ago, which if I rec= all was made in Korea. This leads me to ask, do anyone know where Broadway's plastic engines are being made: Korea or Red China? (This would make a bi= g difference to my buying likelihood). Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C22342.7157FA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Barry:
<= DIV> 
It will be interesting where they come from. The fi= rst P2K steam engine (1st run) came from Austria. The Athearn Genesi= s steam engines are a joint effort with Samhongsa in South Korea. I think= that Rivarossi's new Allegany C&O steam engine is made in = Italy.
 
In sum, Red China is not the only pla= ce where these engines came be made. Probably a sizable pa= rt of the cost of these engines is the labor in assembling them. Sin= ce most modelers have experience in building plastic models, pe= rhaps these plastic steam engines can be offered in kit form. That w= ould not only reduce the sales price, but could mean that the m= anufacturing of the kit could be in America.
 
=
Happy 4th of July to all!
 
Ted Andrews<= /DIV>
Carmel, Indiana  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: BPX29@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:36 AM
=
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited impo= rts
 
Ken wrote:
"Actually while the Broadway nam= e is new the owners of the company have a
long term track record in th= e industry. If you remember Oriental brass then
you have seen past pro= ducts from the same people. To me this is a big plus as

they alrea= dy have some idea of what they are getting into and how the average
modeler reacts or at least how they used to react. --------------------=    Ken

McCorry
--------------------------
Hmm, I'v= e got some of their brass products from years ago, which if I recall
w= as made in Korea. This leads me to ask, do anyone know where Broadway'splastic engines are being made: Korea or Red China? (This would make a = big
difference to my buying likelihood).
Thanks,
Barry Peltier


-----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.= dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C22342.7157FA40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:03:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Class P85R Budd Coaches --part1_113.13f57606.2a55cbc1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/4/02 2:16:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > John Sheets wrote: > > > > Does anybody know the road numbers for these cars? > > > > 60 Seats, Budd Built 1940s PRR Coach Class P85R > > > > Thnks > > John > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > John > > Car Class Info Trucks > P85R-Coach-85' Budd-1940 #4019-4023-Assign. to "South Wind"-Seats 60 > rotate-recline 2DP5 > P85R-Coach-85' Budd-1940 #4026-29,4046-55-Assign. to ACL-Seats 60 > rotate-recline 2DP5 > > Eddie > Hi John, Eddie, and others, "The Passenger Car Library, Vol. 4, Mid-Atlantic Railroads" by W. David Randall provides the following: Budd Job 96407: 6, 60-seat coaches ordered 6/40, delivered 12/40 (South Wind) Budd Job 96411: 6, 60-seat coaches ordered 7/40, delivered 12/40 (Silver Meteor) Budd Job 96412: 6, 60-seat coaches ordered 8/40, delivered 12/40 (Champion) Coaches 4019 to 4023 were painted PRR Tuscan Red (two-tone) and built for the Chicago-Miami South Wind. Identical cars left with a stainless steel finish were 4024 and 4025 built for SAL's Silver Meteor and 4026 to 4029 for the ACL's Champion. The ACL cars had a purple name plate on an otherwise stainless steel finish. The book shows photos of one of the South Wind cars and side views and an interior floor plan of the coaches. "By Streamliner, New York to Florida" by Joseph M. Welsh in the appendix "Lightweight Equipment Roster, Northeast-Florida Service" lists PRR 4046-4054 as delivered 5-6/46 by Budd and assigned to ACL service. Best regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 --part1_113.13f57606.2a55cbc1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/4/02 2:16:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes:


John Sheets wrote:
>
> Does anybody know the road numbers for these cars?
>
> 60 Seats,  Budd Built 1940s  PRR Coach Class P85R
>
> Thnks
> John
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>

John

Car Class       Info    Trucks 
P85R-Coach-85' Budd-1940        #4019-4023-Assign. to "South Wind"-Seats 60
rotate-recline  2DP5   
P85R-Coach-85' Budd-1940        #4026-29,4046-55-Assign. to ACL-Seats 60
rotate-recline  2DP5   

Eddie


Hi John, Eddie, and others,

"The Passenger Car Library, Vol. 4, Mid-Atlantic Railroads" by W. David Randall provides the following:

Budd Job 96407: 6, 60-seat coaches ordered 6/40, delivered 12/40 (South Wind)
Budd Job 96411: 6, 60-seat coaches ordered 7/40, delivered 12/40 (Silver Meteor)
Budd Job 96412: 6, 60-seat coaches ordered 8/40, delivered 12/40 (Champion)

Coaches 4019 to 4023 were painted PRR Tuscan Red (two-tone) and built for the Chicago-Miami South Wind.  Identical cars left with a stainless steel finish were 4024 and 4025 built for SAL's Silver Meteor and 4026 to 4029 for the ACL's Champion.  The ACL cars had a purple name plate on an otherwise stainless steel finish.

The book shows photos of one of the South Wind cars and side views  and an interior floor plan of the coaches.

"By Streamliner, New York to Florida" by Joseph M. Welsh in the appendix "Lightweight Equipment Roster, Northeast-Florida Service" lists PRR 4046-4054 as delivered 5-6/46 by Budd and assigned to ACL service.

Best regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 --part1_113.13f57606.2a55cbc1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:32:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports In a message dated 7/4/02 10:11:27 AM Central Daylight Time, Ted_Andrews@msn.com writes: << Since most modelers have experience in building plastic models, perhaps these plastic steam engines can be offered in kit form. >> I agree, Ted, it would be a great idea, but commercially it would flop. Seen any kits from Walthers lately? Everything they announce is ready-to-run. The average model train customer has to ask the dealer to change out his Bachmann EZmate couplers with horn-hook---he is that mechanically challenged. Don't go by the 1% of the modelers on some chatlists on the internet. As I indicated on another list, in retirement I work part-time at a hobby shop and all the hobbies---planes, trains, and automobiles, are ready-to-run oriented today. We special order kits for the 1% who ask for them. Except for a few R/C vehicles which the manufacturer doesn't even bother to offer as kits. I ran into this when I wanted a PFE reefer. They are available RTR for almost $30 list. Instead I bought an older kit from a fellow chatlist member. I have no desire to pay almost $15 to someone to do the fun part---assembly. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 13:48:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8 4271 Headlight In a message dated 7/4/02 10:11:45 AM Central Daylight Time, john@mpa-inc.com writes: << In Schafer and Soloman's book, Pennsylvania RR , there is a photo on ppg 35 of PRR E-8 4271 at St Louis. The engine appears to have a double headlight. The second headlight, or whatever it is, is on the door above the keystone and is painted over. Is it what it appears to be? >> Two E8's and one BP20 had Mars lights (or was it the other way around?). Some say it was an experiment,others that the E units were requested that way in compliance with a request from the South Wind joint railroads (L&N, COG, ACL) to match those on their diesels. Presumably they thought it was a good idea with the many crossings at grade through the South that all the pool diesels on the train have the additional Mars warning light. Caveat: this is ancecdotal, not documented, information. I need to find other photos to check, but I believe the Mars light was usually on top and the regular headlight the lower door-mounted headlight. When they took out the Mars light, this would have required moving the headlight to the top position if it wasn't already there. I am relatively sure the door headlight housing in the photo is plated over and then painted. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 14:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8 4271 Headlight On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/4/02 10:11:45 AM Central Daylight Time, john@mpa-inc.com > writes: > > << In Schafer and Soloman's book, Pennsylvania RR , there is a photo on ppg 35 > of PRR E-8 4271 at St Louis. The engine appears to have a double headlight. > > The second headlight, or whatever it is, is on the door above the keystone > and is painted over. > > Is it what it appears to be? >> > > Two E8's and one BP20 had Mars lights (or was it the other way around?). 2 of each. the first 2 BP20s did, as well as 2 of the E units. The extra headlight housing on one of the BP20s may have disappeared after an accident; I can't remember and don't have a moment to check. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR G5s Lists, I have available for purchase a very nice HO Scale PRR G5s. Actually this is not mine but I was contacted by its owner to find it a new home. Here are the specifics: It was imported by Alco Models in the early 1980's. It is a Samhongsa Built model. It was purchased new and then professionally painted/finished in 1986. It has never seen a layout. When it was handed to me the other day I did test run it on a 3' section of track to witness the running ability. Fabulous! The looks are just as nice. It was painted/finished by Elmer Steurnagel (founder of the PRRT&HS). He knows his stuff! Sorry no pics available right now but let me describe the looks. It is painted the standard very dark DGLE. Smoke Box and exposed firebox area have a metalic looking finish. Never seen it done this way before but it is rather realistic looking. Correct MV Lens colors applied to the Class Lights and Loco/Tender Marker Lights. Headlights contain MV Lens as well. Cab Windows, Etched Number Plate (#5748) and Tender Plate applied. Brass colored Bell and Whistle. Slightly darkend rods/valve gear. Cab roof is a Dark Oxide color and the Tender deck is a Lighter Oxide color. If I recall this was correct when reshopping a loco. Overall finish is Glossy or freashly shopped if you will. No weathering applied. Lettering is the standard Gold Leaf with no stripes. Again, excellent overall appearance. If you are interested in this G5s let me know and we can go from there. I would really like to own this myself but can't jusify owning another......Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] N scale H3b from MDC 2-8-0 Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:27:46 -0400 Lists, I am fairly well along in my conversion of MDC Roundhouse's "Old-time" N scale 2-8-0into a PRR H3b, based on the photo of 7609 at Northeast.Railfan.net, the plans of 1187 in Nov. 1986 MR, and the photo in Stauffers' "Pennsy Power" whose number I can't make out. If anyone else has done this, how did you handle the under cab vertical air tanks? MDC Roundhouse has two screws directly above their location that hold the rear of the superstructure to the frame. There are several possibilities like making the air tanks out of brass and soldering the screw to them, then cutting a slot in the bottom of the air tank for a screwdriver, or replacing the screw with a longer one and making the tank out of tubing. The tank measures 21" by 42", so 1/8" by 1/4", which is 20" by 40" in N scale is close enough for me. If you can detect 1 inch in N scale you're a better man than I am Gunga Din! The superstructure and cab are in white alkyd metal primer now and look good to me with the cab roofline revised, cab handrails added, the windows modified to two double pane (one open of the engineer's side), a Belpaire added, new injectors and blowdown pipes, revised and added handrails and a new stack and number plate. The tender is finished and painted with Scalecoat II DGLE. The coal bunker was shortened, a water hatch added, as well as an oil headlamp pre the "Pennsy Power" photo, a ladder at the rear, and front tender steps - looks much better. Never did hear from anyone about the pilot conversion. Have a footboard type originally intended for a Rapido 0-6-0 lying aorund, so I'll try it, unless I get some guidance from fellow PRR N scalers. If anyone will be at the train show at the North Florida Fairgrounds in Tallahassee on July 13, I hope to have the completed model operating on my railroad there. BTW, haven't bought any Bowser H21's yet as years ago I made the decision to model only closed cars (you can't tell if they're loaded or empty) Gregg Mahlkov. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:39:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Railworks flats Elden, and list. These cars are OUT-OF-THIS-WORLD. I am very pleased with mine. Much like the prototype, however, the more axles the models has, the tougher it is to pull. I will probably end up putting semi-scale wheel sets in mine and that may ease the drag. Todd ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 20:03:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI Hudson --part1_61.2226b7ce.2a563c3a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Folks, Ref: BLI Hudson test. My layout was one of two on which the Hudson was tested. Here is an extract from my comments after the test run (by the way, the sound and appearance was great): We put the loco on the main at York on the CPRR. This area is located right next to the York Yard and is flat. The train I decided to use was a PRR passenger train consisting of Rivarossi cars weighted to one ounce per 10 scale feet. There were eight 85', two 72', and one 52' cars for a total weight of about 11.67 pounds. The Hudson was not able to move the train more than a few inches before it started to slip. We started taking cars off until the train moved (unfortunately, I didn't record how many). That, however, was the easy part. After leaving York, the track runs through a slight upgrade "S" curve through Jimville where the locomotive started to slip but it made it through that area. The real test came on a straight track 2 1/2% grade between Jimville and Robertsdale. We removed cars until we got to three 85' coaches at which point the loco, still slipping, managed to get the train up the grade with a little index finger weight on the sand dome. We continued to run the three car train for about 25 minutes but the performance on this grade did not improve. The Hudson ran well on all other parts of the CPRR. I believe everyone present was disappointed with its performance. Please note that the grade is 2 1/2% not 2% as I orginally reported - my mistake. Also note that I reported that the last half dozen or so steam loco's that I purchased had the same lack of pulling power (IHC, Athearn, Spectrum). I'm providing this info again so you all realize that my cars are weighted heavier than NMRA recommend practice. BLI also told us that the pre-production model they provided to Jerry was to listen to and look at because it wasn't weighted for pulling. Now, that said, I seriously doubt that they found enough room inside the loco to weight it enough to pull 75 or 72 (whatever) cars even those straight out of the box (not weighted). I really would love to test a production model. BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_61.2226b7ce.2a563c3a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Folks,

Ref:  BLI Hudson test.

My layout was one of two on which the Hudson was tested.  Here is an extract from my comments after the test run (by the way, the sound and appearance was great):  

We put the loco on the main at York on the CPRR.  This area is located right next to the York Yard and is flat.  The train I decided to use was a PRR passenger train consisting of Rivarossi cars weighted to one ounce per 10 scale feet.  There were eight 85', two 72', and one 52' cars for a total weight of about 11.67 pounds.  The Hudson was not able to move the train more than a few inches before it started to slip.  We started taking cars off  until the train moved (unfortunately, I didn't record how many).  That, however, was the easy part.  After leaving York, the track runs through a slight upgrade "S" curve through Jimville where the locomotive started to slip but it made it through that area.  The real test came on a straight track 2 1/2%
Please note that the grade is 2 1/2% not 2% as I orginally reported - my mistake.  Also note that I reported that the last half dozen or so steam loco's that I purchased had the same lack of pulling power (IHC, Athearn, Spectrum).  I'm providing this info again so you all realize that my cars are weighted heavier than NMRA recommend practice.  BLI also told us that the pre-production model they provided to Jerry was to listen to and look at because it wasn't weighted for pulling.  Now, that said, I seriously doubt that they found enough room inside the loco to weight it enough to pull 75 or 72 (whatever) cars even those straight out of the box (not weighted).  I really would love to test a production model.

BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_61.2226b7ce.2a563c3a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 01:12:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI M1b --part1_9b.29e8966e.2a5684af_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any ideas what the minimum radius of curve the M1B will run over??? Thought I should see if anyone knew before I bought one :) I ask because my Athearn Genesis Light Mike hates anything under 22", and it finicky about the 22" ! Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_9b.29e8966e.2a5684af_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any ideas what the minimum radius of curve the M1B will run over???  Thought I should see if anyone knew before I bought one :)

I ask because my Athearn Genesis Light Mike hates anything under 22", and it finicky about the 22" !


Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_9b.29e8966e.2a5684af_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 05:25:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR R50B Guys, A friend forwarded this to me and I don't recall seeing it here on this list but I would like to respond and without causing a war over the better manufacturer. I would like to say that Walthers will release a R50B and that I think samples of the tooling will likely be available in September... I would like to express my personal interest in getting the car onto the market as I canvassed a few manufacturers quietly two years ago and Walthers was willing to commit to the project. I took the project in tow and with help from selected members of the PRRT&HS many correction to the NJI drawing were made based on PRR Shop drawings as well as other published drawing and the tooling is likely finished. Don't count Walthers short in this project, please, until we see the finished project. We argued very small details like the 1" lip at the roof and sides. I am not faulting the release of the Sunshine kit but I have to question the need for two kits and I think Martin's "wait and see" understand position as a very reasonable one from an investment standpoint. I think we may all be surprised at how well Walthers does with this kit with as much information that has been offered them including their wishes to release the kit in the correct paint schemes that were available to them. Much research was considered by knowledgeable individuals (one in particular ... not myself) from "within" to get the car as correct as possible. The trucks alone will be valuable for other projects like the B60B. Walthers has agreed to credit the society for their help. Thanks for your time and Ted your efforts to move the kit forward from Martin might be valuable (and needed) in the future to some modelers. Ted, please have faith as I do that we will see an excellent kit this fall to add to Walthers passenger car efforts. Again, I do understand Martin's position from an investment standpoint. Greg Martin Pac Nor Wester ============================================================= >From another list Ted Culotta wrote: >Sunshine Models has completed patterns in order to produce HO scale resin kits of the Pennsy's R50b express refrigerator cars. These are extremely important prototypes for New Haven modelers as they were numerous (2,000) and appeared frequently on the NH in head end service. Walthers has also announced plans to produce the same prototype. I have little faith in Walthers ability to produce anything even remotely of the same quality as what Sunshine can produce. However, Sunshine has delayed release of its kits pending a review of the Walthers product. I believe that for many of us, these two products would be mutually exclusive as Sunshine would offer a kit that many prefer to Walthers. I am hoping to convince Martin Lofton of Sunshine to release these regardless of any plans that Walthers may have. If you would COMMIT to purchasing one or multiple copies of the Sunshine offering, please let me know by replying to this email with your name and quantity of kits you would buy (price will be in the $35 range, similar to but slightly more expensive than the Walthers offering). These cars were seen in head end service EVERYWHERE in the US. They saw service from the 20's into the 60's. If you are unsure as to what the R50b is, please use the following link. This photo is an older one. Go to www.steamfreightcars.com. The first item under 'What's New' is a link to the photo. Regards, Ted Culotta< ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 08:00:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8 4271 Headlight In a message dated 7/4/02 2:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << The extra headlight housing on one of the BP20s may have disappeared after an accident; I can't remember and don't have a moment to check. >> I thought that it was only one BP-20 and that the extra headlight appeared after the accident rebuild..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR R50B Greg, Will this Walthers R50B be a ready to run car or a kit form car? Walthers seems to be leaning towards RTR stuff these days....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 09:53:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR R50B In a message dated 7/5/02 4:32:27 AM Central Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << The trucks alone will be valuable for other projects like the B60B. >> Or putting on an older brass R50b if they are free-rolling. Am I correct to assume the R50b version modeled will be the "modernized" one? Or does the "-b" signify that? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: broadway@pa.net Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:00:21 US/Eastern > Subject: use of PRR logo > From: "Earl Myers" > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0400 > > > Gents; > The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = > Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within > = > it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = > have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that > = > it is not a big deal to use it?? > Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS Earl: It was my understanding that a fellow bought the rights lock-stock-and drumhead to the logo from the Pennsy Holding Company. He's the same guy that had those AWFUL PRR credit cards made up (with a Radial-Stay boiler...aggghh) and was selling them at Howard Zane's Scale meet a couple years ago. Supposedly he was giving the Decal companies a hard time over infringement on HIS rights with the logo. Not sure what happened to him or his holier than though attitude with the logo. Good Luck in your ventures though ......Broadway@pa.net --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using PAdotNET WebMail. http://www.pa.net/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:11:20 -0400 As I recall, the PRRT&HS lawyers (including the late Jim Lynch) worked this guy over and he was happy to cease and desist before they ground him underfoot. As far as I know, it's all in the public domain. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 6:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 > > > Subject: use of PRR logo > > From: "Earl Myers" > > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0400 > > > > > > Gents; > > The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = > > Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within > > = > > it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = > > have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that > > = > > it is not a big deal to use it?? > > Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS > > Earl: It was my understanding that a fellow bought the rights lock-stock-and > drumhead to the logo from the Pennsy Holding Company. He's the same guy that > had those AWFUL PRR credit cards made up (with a Radial-Stay boiler...aggghh) > and was selling them at Howard Zane's Scale meet a couple years ago. Supposedly > he was giving the Decal companies a hard time over infringement on HIS rights > with the logo. Not sure what happened to him or his holier than though attitude > with the logo. Good Luck in your ventures though ......Broadway@pa.net > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using PAdotNET WebMail. > http://www.pa.net/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:22:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8 4271 Headlight On Fri, 5 Jul 2002 VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/4/02 2:10:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > shadow@dementia.org writes: > > << The extra > headlight housing on one of the BP20s may have disappeared after an > accident; I can't remember and don't have a moment to check. >> > > I thought that it was only one BP-20 and that the extra headlight appeared > after the accident rebuild..... The list archives have discussion but I've 99% sure 5770 and 5771 were delivered dual-headlight and 5770 had an accident and was fixed the other way. Not right now but I can probably also go to books if that ends up helping. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:27:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8 4271 Headlight In a message dated 7/5/02 8:06:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << I thought that it was only one BP-20 and that the extra headlight appeared after the accident rebuild..... >> The 5770 and 5771 were built with two headlights. all other BP-20's were built with one. The 5770 had it's lower headlight removed after an accident in the mid fifties. ---------------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 10:01:45 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] PRR-R50B fellows, One concern I have with Walthers is their penchant for issuing a paint scheme with only one road number. Any chance of multiple numbers, or a car lacking road numbers? Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-R50B Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:08:40 +0100 Hopefully if they only do one number per paint scheme they will make the numbers relatively easy to remove! The best way would be either a totally undecorated model or a version of each scheme with no number... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR-R50B > fellows, > One concern I have with Walthers is their penchant for issuing a paint scheme > with only one road number. Any chance of multiple numbers, or a car lacking > road numbers? > > Walt Prusick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR-R50B Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:20:32 -0400 Didn't their REA reefers com in 3 numbers a 2 pack with 2 different and a single with a 3rd? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: cabincar01@earthlink.net [mailto:cabincar01@earthlink.net] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 1:02 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR-R50B fellows, One concern I have with Walthers is their penchant for issuing a paint scheme with only one road number. Any chance of multiple numbers, or a car lacking road numbers? Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 14:04:24 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-R50B I'm afraid that requiring the model RRer to put the number on is too much like a "kit" for Walthers tastes. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== pgrace wrote: > Hopefully if they only do one number per paint scheme they will make the > numbers relatively easy to remove! > > The best way would be either a totally undecorated model or a version of > each scheme > with no number... > > Patrick Grace > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 6:01 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR-R50B > > > fellows, > > One concern I have with Walthers is their penchant for issuing a paint > scheme > > with only one road number. Any chance of multiple numbers, or a car > lacking > > road numbers? > > > > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR-R50B Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:13:38 -0400 Now, now, We do have to decal the car names on their new passenger cars. Not to mention taking the roof off (involves tools) to add the lighting kits :) Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 2:04 PM To: pgrace Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-R50B I'm afraid that requiring the model RRer to put the number on is too much like a "kit" for Walthers tastes. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== pgrace wrote: > Hopefully if they only do one number per paint scheme they will make the > numbers relatively easy to remove! > > The best way would be either a totally undecorated model or a version of > each scheme > with no number... > > Patrick Grace > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 6:01 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR-R50B > > > fellows, > > One concern I have with Walthers is their penchant for issuing a paint > scheme > > with only one road number. Any chance of multiple numbers, or a car > lacking > > road numbers? > > > > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:13:36 -0500 I don't think the gentleman ever bought the rights to anything. He just tried to copyright the Keysone logo. I don't think his "rights" to ownership of this were ever upheld by any court. -----Original Message----- From: broadway@pa.net [mailto:broadway@pa.net] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 5:00 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 > Subject: use of PRR logo > From: "Earl Myers" > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0400 > > > Gents; > The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = > Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within > = > it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = > have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that > = > it is not a big deal to use it?? > Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS Earl: It was my understanding that a fellow bought the rights lock-stock-and drumhead to the logo from the Pennsy Holding Company. He's the same guy that had those AWFUL PRR credit cards made up (with a Radial-Stay boiler...aggghh) and was selling them at Howard Zane's Scale meet a couple years ago. Supposedly he was giving the Decal companies a hard time over infringement on HIS rights with the logo. Not sure what happened to him or his holier than though attitude with the logo. Good Luck in your ventures though ......Broadway@pa.net --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using PAdotNET WebMail. http://www.pa.net/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 18:33:36 +0000 He used to threaten people on AOL who would even mention the name of a railroad claiming "rights" to the names. He was laughed off the RR boards more than once. he disappeared from there at least three years ago after he tried to hawk his root beer and was roundly condemned. > I don't think the gentleman ever bought the rights to anything. He just > tried to copyright the Keysone logo. I don't think his "rights" to > ownership of this were ever upheld by any court. > > -----Original Message----- > From: broadway@pa.net [mailto:broadway@pa.net] > Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 5:00 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 > > > > > Subject: use of PRR logo > > From: "Earl Myers" > > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0400 > > > > > > Gents; > > The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = > > Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within > > = > > it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = > > have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that > > = > > it is not a big deal to use it?? > > Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS > > Earl: It was my understanding that a fellow bought the rights lock-stock-and > > drumhead to the logo from the Pennsy Holding Company. He's the same guy that > > had those AWFUL PRR credit cards made up (with a Radial-Stay > boiler...aggghh) > and was selling them at Howard Zane's Scale meet a couple years ago. > Supposedly > he was giving the Decal companies a hard time over infringement on HIS > rights > with the logo. Not sure what happened to him or his holier than though > attitude > with the logo. Good Luck in your ventures though ......Broadway@pa.net > > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using PAdotNET WebMail. > http://www.pa.net/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 14:39:35 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 Greetings to Marvin, Earl, and the List: The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office threw out the Illinois gentleman's alleged claim to the PRR keystone. He *was* correct in that the successor corporation to PRR-PC, American Premier Underwriters, had -- through oversight or inattention to detail or whatever -- allowed its legal claim to *one* version of the keystone to expire. He then spent much effort and money in an attempt to trademark the PRR keystone in his name, with the idea of collecting licensing fees from anyone who wanted to use it in any form. Fortunately, the federal administrative law judge hearing the case ruled that his claim was unenforceable on multiple counts. So the next time you read about a $600 Air Force wrench, just remember that there *are* instances affecting us closely in which our federal tax dollars go to support good, honorable, and right purposes. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------ Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > > I don't think the gentleman ever bought the rights to anything. He just > tried to copyright the Keysone logo. I don't think his "rights" to > ownership of this were ever upheld by any court. > > -----Original Message----- > From: broadway@pa.net [mailto:broadway@pa.net] > Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 5:00 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 > > > Subject: use of PRR logo > > From: "Earl Myers" > > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0400 > > > > > > Gents; > > The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = > > Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within > > = > > it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = > > have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that > > = > > it is not a big deal to use it?? > > Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS > > Earl: It was my understanding that a fellow bought the rights lock-stock-and > > drumhead to the logo from the Pennsy Holding Company. He's the same guy that > > had those AWFUL PRR credit cards made up (with a Radial-Stay > boiler...aggghh) > and was selling them at Howard Zane's Scale meet a couple years ago. > Supposedly > he was giving the Decal companies a hard time over infringement on HIS > rights > with the logo. Not sure what happened to him or his holier than though > attitude > with the logo. Good Luck in your ventures though ......Broadway@pa.net > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using PAdotNET WebMail. > http://www.pa.net/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:38:52 -0500 The gentleman is from my hometown. He did hawk red-colored credit cards with a Keystone logo at one of the GATS flea markets several years ago. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@att.net] Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 1:40 PM To: Cadwell, Marvin L Cc: 'broadway@pa.net'; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 Greetings to Marvin, Earl, and the List: The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office threw out the Illinois gentleman's alleged claim to the PRR keystone. He *was* correct in that the successor corporation to PRR-PC, American Premier Underwriters, had -- through oversight or inattention to detail or whatever -- allowed its legal claim to *one* version of the keystone to expire. He then spent much effort and money in an attempt to trademark the PRR keystone in his name, with the idea of collecting licensing fees from anyone who wanted to use it in any form. Fortunately, the federal administrative law judge hearing the case ruled that his claim was unenforceable on multiple counts. So the next time you read about a $600 Air Force wrench, just remember that there *are* instances affecting us closely in which our federal tax dollars go to support good, honorable, and right purposes. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------ Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > > I don't think the gentleman ever bought the rights to anything. He just > tried to copyright the Keysone logo. I don't think his "rights" to > ownership of this were ever upheld by any court. > > -----Original Message----- > From: broadway@pa.net [mailto:broadway@pa.net] > Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 5:00 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/03/02 > > > Subject: use of PRR logo > > From: "Earl Myers" > > Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:33:25 -0400 > > > > > > Gents; > > The newly formed (Lines West) Crestline Roundhouse Preservation = > > Society.........would like to incorporate the PRR logo somewhere within > > = > > it's identity.....what were the "rules" regarding it's use?? Seems I = > > have about 20 PRR "bookmarks" each one using this logo....I take it that > > = > > it is not a big deal to use it?? > > Earl Myers, BoD, CRPS > > Earl: It was my understanding that a fellow bought the rights lock-stock-and > > drumhead to the logo from the Pennsy Holding Company. He's the same guy that > > had those AWFUL PRR credit cards made up (with a Radial-Stay > boiler...aggghh) > and was selling them at Howard Zane's Scale meet a couple years ago. > Supposedly > he was giving the Decal companies a hard time over infringement on HIS > rights > with the logo. Not sure what happened to him or his holier than though > attitude > with the logo. Good Luck in your ventures though ......Broadway@pa.net > > --------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using PAdotNET WebMail. > http://www.pa.net/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-R50B Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:47:59 -0400 The REA Cars came in 3 numbers in each of the three pain schemes, hopefully the R50b will also. Walthers is better than others in releasing multiple numbers. I've personally asked Athearn's new owners to do a 12 pack of the Railbox cars in the original scheme for my other layout. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 19:19:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8 4271 Headlight In a message dated 7/5/02 12:35:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, KEMACPRR@aol.com writes: << The 5770 had it's lower headlight removed after an accident in the mid fifties. >> OK now, this Jibes with what I remember - I always felt the "High Headlight" version was more attractive, and remember seeing "post surgery" photos - It was my impression that the nose had been rebuilt with the single high headlight, as a replacement for the lower. I did not pick up that there had originally been two.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 18:48:20 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Wanna buy a real P-70? Hi, Anyone wanna buy a real P-70? There is one for sale here... http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/serv02.htm - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 07:31:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Two "headlights" on BP20 5771 --part1_7c.2a68cfd5.2a582f0b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 1:12:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > The second headlight, or whatever it is, is on the door above the > keystone > > and is painted over. > > > > Is it what it appears to be? >> > > > > Two E8's and one BP20 had Mars lights (or was it the other way around?). > > > 2 of each. the first 2 BP20s did, as well as 2 of the E units. The extra > headlight housing on one of the BP20s may have disappeared after an > accident; I can't remember and don't have a moment to check. > > -D > There's a print in the Jack Fravert collection of PRR 5771 with two headlights, backing south out of Louisville Union Station and then snaking onto the northbound connecting track toward 11TH STREET (beginning of PRR track and a PRR timetable point) for its run to Indy-Logansport-Chicago. The first and second BP20 units are visible, and then several cars back a fairly long train (12+ cars at least) has lightweight cars on the rear and at least 4 heavyweight passenger cars on the headend. We haven't yet located the negative, so can't date the photo yet, but 1946-1949 would be logical. It's obvious from the photo that the lower opening houses a reflector, and the upper opening houses something that shows as much darker. 5771 is in 5-stripe, has one horn, and is missing its coupler covers, showing its front coupler in the folded (down) position. The pair of inductive train phone antennae on 5771 look from this angle as if they're no taller than the horn; lack of antennae on the second unit tells us this is a B unit. The third unit (if any) is hidden behind the first two, as the train is lying in an S curve. Hopefully, this photo will appear in a future Keystone before it goes to archive at University of Louisville. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_7c.2a68cfd5.2a582f0b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 1:12:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


>  The second headlight, or whatever it is, is on the door above the keystone
>  and is painted over.
> 
>  Is it what it appears to be? >>
>
> Two E8's and one BP20 had Mars lights  (or was it the other way around?). 

2 of each. the first 2 BP20s did, as well as 2 of the E units. The extra
headlight housing on one of the BP20s may have disappeared after an
accident; I can't remember and don't have a moment to check.

-D


There's a print in the Jack Fravert collection of PRR 5771 with two headlights, backing south out of Louisville Union Station and then snaking onto the northbound connecting track toward 11TH STREET (beginning of PRR track and a PRR timetable point) for its run to Indy-Logansport-Chicago.  The first and second BP20 units are visible, and then several cars back a fairly long train (12+ cars at least) has lightweight cars on the rear and at least 4 heavyweight passenger cars on the headend.  We haven't yet located the negative, so can't date the photo yet, but 1946-1949 would be logical.

It's obvious from the photo that the lower opening houses a reflector, and the upper opening houses something that shows as much darker.  5771 is in 5-stripe, has one horn, and is missing its coupler covers, showing its front coupler in the folded (down) position.  The pair of inductive train phone antennae on 5771 look from this angle as if they're no taller than the horn; lack of antennae on the second unit tells us this is a B unit.  The third unit (if any) is hidden behind the first two, as the train is lying in an S curve.

Hopefully, this photo will appear in a future Keystone before it goes to archive at University of Louisville.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_7c.2a68cfd5.2a582f0b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 18:29:54 -0400 Howdy all, I am looking for the dates the following M class locomotives where taken out of service. M1a - 6743,6766,6775 M1b - 6704,6716,6738 If these numbers seem familiar they are the 6 decorated number that will be offered by BLI. Before anyone suggests using the searchable steam database on Jerry's site, I already tried that and the information isn't there. Thanks. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:56:53 -0500 Brian, According to Edson's Keystone Steam & Electric, 6743 Sold for Scrap 2/56 6766 Sold for Scrap 2/56 6775 Sold for Scrap (No date is given, but if the list is meant to be read using the previous date where none is given, the date would be 2/56) 6704 Sold for Scrap 6/59 6716 Dropped from Roster 10/56 6738 Sold for Scrap 9/59 Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:57:20 -0400 Edson's All Time Steam Roster lists 6775 as being sold for scrap on 3/55. I highly recommend his all time roster. It's over 500 pages of single sided photocopies which covers all locos from the beginning of the PRR to the end. (Keystone Steam & Electric starts in the early 1900's...) It's available directly from him for $49. I have his address info around here somewhere if anyone's interested, I'll dig it out and post it... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Cich Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 6:57 PM To: Prr-talk Subject: RE: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Brian, According to Edson's Keystone Steam & Electric, 6743 Sold for Scrap 2/56 6766 Sold for Scrap 2/56 6775 Sold for Scrap (No date is given, but if the list is meant to be read using the previous date where none is given, the date would be 2/56) 6704 Sold for Scrap 6/59 6716 Dropped from Roster 10/56 6738 Sold for Scrap 9/59 Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:29:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] M Class locomotive question From: prrq2 Rob, This sounds like an indispensable reference tool. If you can dig out his address, I'm sure others besides myself would appreciate it. TIA -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > Edson's All Time Steam Roster > I highly recommend his all time roster. It's over 500 pages of single sided > photocopies which covers all locos from the beginning of the PRR to the end. > (Keystone Steam & Electric starts in the early 1900's...) > > It's available directly from him for $49. > > I have his address info around here somewhere if anyone's interested, I'll > dig it out and post it... > > Rob > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 21:31:07 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Two "headlights" on BP20 5771 There are several clear pictures of 5771 circa 1964 in Pennsy Diesel Years #1, pgs. 18, 22, & 23. RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 7/5/02 1:12:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com >writes: > > >> >  The second headlight, or whatever it is, is on the door above the >> keystone >> >  and is painted over. >> >   >> >  Is it what it appears to be? >> >> > >> > Two E8's and one BP20 had Mars lights  (or was it the other way around?). >>   >> >> 2 of each. the first 2 BP20s did, as well as 2 of the E units. The extra >> headlight housing on one of the BP20s may have disappeared after an >> accident; I can't remember and don't have a moment to check. >> >> -D >> > >There's a print in the Jack Fravert collection of PRR 5771 with two >headlights, backing south out of Louisville Union Station and then snaking >onto the northbound connecting track toward 11TH STREET (beginning of PRR >track and a PRR timetable point) for its run to Indy-Logansport-Chicago.  The >first and second BP20 units are visible, and then several cars back a fairly >long train (12+ cars at least) has lightweight cars on the rear and at least >4 heavyweight passenger cars on the headend.  We haven't yet located the >negative, so can't date the photo yet, but 1946-1949 would be logical. > >It's obvious from the photo that the lower opening houses a reflector, and >the upper opening houses something that shows as much darker.  5771 is in >5-stripe, has one horn, and is missing its coupler covers, showing its front >coupler in the folded (down) position.  The pair of inductive train phone >antennae on 5771 look from this angle as if they're no taller than the horn; >lack of antennae on the second unit tells us this is a B unit.  The third >unit (if any) is hidden behind the first two, as the train is lying in an S >curve. > >Hopefully, this photo will appear in a future Keystone before it goes to >archive at University of Louisville. > >Rick Tipton >Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder >plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and >other railroadiana. >Email RickTipton@aol.com >Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) >Wolf Penn Station >5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive >Prospect, KY 40059-9197 > __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 21:43:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3108836630_102312_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 7/3/02 11:39 AM, Chany, Christopher at cpc1@westchestergov.com wrote: Just because the Listmeister is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should come to a screeching halt. I'm baaack! So to get it moving, saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It says that it will pull 75 cars. When we had it for the PRRT&HS meeting I thought we decided it's pulling power was highly suspect. Updates have been posted to the list since. Do you think that they will make the soundboards available for sale? No. I could see buying a couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ --MS_Mac_OE_3108836630_102312_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports on 7/3/02 11:39 AM, Chany, Christopher at cpc1@westchestergov.com wrote:
Just because the Listmeister= is on vacation doesn't mean that the list traffic should come to a screechi= ng halt.  

I'm baaack!

So to get it moving, saw the ad in August MR for the NYC (the horror) J. It= says that it will pull 75 cars.  When we had it for the PRRT&HS me= eting I thought we decided it's pulling power was highly suspect.  

Updates have been posted to the list since.

Do you think that they will make the soundboards available for sale?  =

No.

I could see buying a couple of the M1 boards for my Westside M's.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -
Jerry Britton       jerry@pennsyrr.com  =         http://kc.pennsyrr.com
Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/
--MS_Mac_OE_3108836630_102312_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 21:49:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway limited imports From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" on 7/3/02 1:08 PM, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com at USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote: > I am glad this came up! I was looking at the M1 and the T1, but there are no > photos of the actually model anywhere!!! I just cant pay that much without > atleast seeing a picture! M's aren't due until year end; T's next year. Ever see a photo of a brass model at time of announcement? No. If you wait until a photo is available, they are sold out. Fortunately, the first BLI product is the NYC J1 so you'll be able to hear how they work out. If you wait for photos of the finished M's or T's, good luck finding one to purchase! > > To those who have seen the M1, what so you think?? And why hasn't Model > railroader or someone gotten a hold of one to test it?! I emailed Broadway > limited with my thoughts, and did not get anywhere there. > > To bad to, because Brass is out of the question for me ($$), but with a > decoder and sound I was willing to buy one an M1 and T1. If I cant see it or > a picture, and haven't heard anything about how it runs there's just no way I > am going to pay that money. And I dont suspect one of my local hobby shops > will carry one! > > I would love to hear from anyone who saw the J! Or knows anything else about > these engines! > > Is there a way to search the archives on this list?? > http://lists.dsop.com/prr/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:13:06 -0400 Ok, Here's the info... I just got my copy in April so this info should be current... The roster's dated Nov 1994 so I guess he's been selling them for quite a while even though I just heard of it fairly recently... Also, note that the roster is Steam only.. The roster is $49 including postage. Send a check to William Edson at: 10820 Gainsborough Road Potomac, MD 20854 Standard disclaimer: I don't know Bill and am just a satisfied customer... Rob -----Original Message----- From: prrq2 [mailto:prrq2@prairieinet.net] Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:30 PM To: Rob Schoenberg; Andy Cich; Prr-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Rob, This sounds like an indispensable reference tool. If you can dig out his address, I'm sure others besides myself would appreciate it. TIA -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > Edson's All Time Steam Roster > I highly recommend his all time roster. It's over 500 pages of single sided > photocopies which covers all locos from the beginning of the PRR to the end. > (Keystone Steam & Electric starts in the early 1900's...) > > It's available directly from him for $49. > > I have his address info around here somewhere if anyone's interested, I'll > dig it out and post it... > > Rob > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 08:19:41 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster Rob said> "I highly recommend his all time roster. It's over 500 pages of single sided photocopies which covers all locos from the beginning of the PRR to the end." Yes, it's comprehensive and I have one. But buyer beware it has errors. It's not gospel so don't bet your life savings on its data. In doing in-depth research on the E&P owned steam locomotives for the book I found quite a few errors when comparing to the official PRR motive power records. It is from this type of information that urban legends are sometimes born. Also if you order it, make sure you check out all of the pages for copy quality. I ordered one several years ago and had to write him to get about 25 replacement pages as they were copied crooked and some of the data was cut off the page. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:09:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster In a message dated 7/7/02 8:33:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: << I highly recommend his all time roster. It's over 500 pages of single sided photocopies which covers all locos from the beginning of the PRR to the end." Yes, it's comprehensive and I have one. But buyer beware it has errors. It's not gospel so don't bet your life savings on its data. >> I have an original - copyright 1974 - 137 pages, double sided - soft cover, published by Wayner Publications Ansonia Station, NY, NY. How it became 500 pages single paged, I don't know. Wayner, about this same time, also did a similar style book of "Pullman Car Names and Passenger Train Consists" I had one, but have not seen it in a while. Please remember thate Edson's book was done before the era of PC's and desk top publishing, this is a single spaced, typewriten labor of love - Beyond any errors in research, or transcription, with page after page of numbers one would have unavoidable typing errors. Price, in pencil, inside front cover: $5.95 Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster Al, List, I have found mistakes also in the 137 page Edson PRR Roster Book "Keystone Steam and Electric". I needed confirming evidence of C1 6638. Edson says it was scrapped in March 1940. I have a photo of the loco in July 1940, in service. MP 229 of 1949 still has the loco on the roster. I believe it was a typo on his part. 1940 intead of 1950. Book may be filed with them? Anyway, these are the best roster compilations other than having every MP 229's issued.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:34:50 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster Gary said> "Book may be filed with [errors] them ? Anyway, these are the best roster compilations other than having every MP 229's issued" I agree with Gary, it's about the best available, other than the 229's. I was just putting people on notice about its potential to be incorrect. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:42:06 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster Dick said> "I have an original - copyright 1974 - 137 pages, double sided - soft cover, published by Wayner Publications Ansonia Station, NY, NY. How it became 500 pages single paged, I don't know." I believe, the 137-page book you are referring to is "Keystone Steam & Electric," which I also have a copy of. The book being referred to in the recent posts is different, it's "Steam Locomotives of the Pennsylvania Railroad - An All Time Roster" - no way could it have ever been 137 pages. However, it could be half the number of sheets of paper if it was printed on both sides. Also in my opinion being a pre-PC document is no excuse for errors, transcription, typos, or whatever. We proof read everything in the pre-PC era just as we do today in the post-PC era. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:29:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster From: prrq2 Al, Gary, List, I have heard tell of MP 229's in the past, but I am not familiar with them. Could you explain what these are and where one might find them? -- Bill Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > From: Al Buchan > Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 09:34:50 -0400 > To: 'Gary Mittner' > Cc: 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: RE: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster > > Gary said> "Book may be filed with [errors] them ? Anyway, these are the > best roster compilations other than having every MP 229's issued" > > I agree with Gary, it's about the best available, other than the 229's. > I was just putting people on notice about its potential to be incorrect. > > Al > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:36:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster In a message dated 7/7/02 9:42:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, abbuchan1@comcast.net writes: << I believe, the 137-page book you are referring to is "Keystone Steam & Electric," which I also have a copy of. The book being referred to in the recent posts is different, it's "Steam Locomotives of the Pennsylvania Railroad - An All Time Roster" - no way could it have ever been 137 pages. However, it could be half the number of sheets of paper if it was printed on both sides. >> The 137 page book is only "Modern era" Although the "Numerological" list goes back to the beginning, the construction list starts with units built 1906 and later but does include both steam and electric. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:47:51 -0500 An additional source for this info on the M1 and M1a is The Keystone, June and September 1979. The September issue lists both classes with drop dates and final dispositions. For the M1a there is also a listing of the date converted to M1b. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:18:48 -0500 By the way, I have heard that Mr. Edson is in rather poor health. He's done rosters for the B&O and was in the process of doing some roster work for the NYC, which has been delayed because of his health. -----Original Message----- From: Rob Schoenberg [mailto:robs@actel.com] Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 11:13 PM To: prrq2; Rob Schoenberg; Andy Cich; Prr-talk Subject: RE: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Ok, Here's the info... I just got my copy in April so this info should be current... The roster's dated Nov 1994 so I guess he's been selling them for quite a while even though I just heard of it fairly recently... Also, note that the roster is Steam only.. The roster is $49 including postage. Send a check to William Edson at: 10820 Gainsborough Road Potomac, MD 20854 Standard disclaimer: I don't know Bill and am just a satisfied customer... Rob -----Original Message----- From: prrq2 [mailto:prrq2@prairieinet.net] Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 8:30 PM To: Rob Schoenberg; Andy Cich; Prr-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] M Class locomotive question Rob, This sounds like an indispensable reference tool. If you can dig out his address, I'm sure others besides myself would appreciate it. TIA -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > Edson's All Time Steam Roster > I highly recommend his all time roster. It's over 500 pages of single sided > photocopies which covers all locos from the beginning of the PRR to the end. > (Keystone Steam & Electric starts in the early 1900's...) > > It's available directly from him for $49. > > I have his address info around here somewhere if anyone's interested, I'll > dig it out and post it... > > Rob > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:48:35 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanna buy a real P-70? --------------Boundary-00=_Z8FWQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Claus, While looking around on the web site you referenced, the locomoti= ve category caught my eye. Lo and behold, there is an E 8A for sale, =20 reportedly a former PennCentral/PRR unit. On looking up the cab number o= n the rosters in Pennsy Diesel Years 1 and 2 the information matches. Mr. Levin may be interested, even if for nothing but parts. Thanks Jim=0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Claus Schlund=0D Date: Friday, July 05, 2002 9:51:31 PM=0D To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D Subject: [PRR] Wanna buy a real P-70?=0D =0D Hi,=0D =0D Anyone wanna buy a real P-70?=0D =0D There is one for sale here...=0D =0D http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/serv02.htm=0D =0D - Claus=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_Z8FWQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A
Claus, While looking around on the web site you=20 referenced,  the locomotive category  caught my eye.=  =20 Lo and behold, there is an E 8A  for=20 sale,   reportedly a former PennCentral/PRR unit.&nb= sp; On=20 looking up the cab number on the rosters in Pennsy Diesel Years 1 a= nd 2=20 the information matches.  Mr. Levin may be interested, even if= for=20 nothing but parts.  Thanks   Jim
-------Original Message-------<= /I>
 
From: Claus Schlund
Date: Friday= , July 05,=20 2002 9:51:31 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PR= R] Wanna=20 buy a real P-70?
 
Hi,

Anyone wanna buy a real P-70?

Th= ere is=20 one for sale here...

http://www.= ozarkmountainrailcar.com/serv02.htm

-=20 Claus


--------------------------------------------------= ---------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

.<= /TD>
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
--------------Boundary-00=_Z8FWQL80000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:08:41 -0800 John, If you're still on this list, can you contact me offline? thanks. -alex charyna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 19:35:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper Would that be JB Cooper? beleve the FBI is still looking for him...... RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:51:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Would that be JB Cooper? beleve the FBI is still looking for him...... that's DB Cooper the FBI wants to see, or more likely his bones. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Emerson" Subject: RE: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:03:28 -0700 FBI still looking for DB Cooper Jim Emerson Lake Oswego, Oregon -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Charles Ring Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 4:52 PM To: VVA249@aol.com Cc: alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Would that be JB Cooper? beleve the FBI is still looking for him...... that's DB Cooper the FBI wants to see, or more likely his bones. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:18:44 -0400 From: Fred Kunchick Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper ROFLMAO Fred Frederick H. Kunchick Jr. GSCS(SW) USN(Retired) REDUCE OUR DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN OIL http://www.syntheticoils.net/kunchick Member Strasburg Model Railroad Club http://www.trainweb.org/smrc/index.html Host of ALHN/AHGP New Hampshire Civil War History and Genealogy Project http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nh/topic/civilwar/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 7:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper > Would that be JB Cooper? beleve the FBI is still looking for him...... > RR > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 21:51:44 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Edson's All Time Steam Roster Bill, et al., MP 229's were an "Assignment of Locomotives" report showing monthly the assignments by locomotive number, class and assistant road foreman to which the loco was assigned of all motive power assigned to a specific division. In addition it had symbols indicating which locomotives were equipped with stokers, ATS, back-up service, and/or whistle and acknowledger. MP 229 was the number assigned to that report format. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:21:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Books for Sale Greetings folks, I'm doing some more thinning of my railroad library, and thought I might offer a listing upon request. Books include some passenger-oriented material, some Pennsy, some history and assorted railroad topics. Please advise offline if you have any interest, and I'll get out a listing as soon as possible. Thanks for your time, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:35:31 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Greetings to the List, I just wanted to relay a story that was told to me this weekend. Sometime during the last week, an IRATE guest actually spit in the face of our maintanence supervisor. What was she so mad about you ask???? We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone! Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Untimely death Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 01:10:51 -0400 Dear list- I brings me sadness to let all of you know that in the early hours of July 6, 2002, James Kelly past away. Jim gave many presentations at both Philadelphia and National Chpt meetings. He was a photographer taking photos of PRR steam in the 40's and 50's. I remember him telling me the story of photographing K-4sa 612. He almost killed himself falling down an embankment because he couldnt believe what he was seeing. Jim wouldn't raise his camera for a diesel, he felt they were not worth the film. Furthermore, he also was an advocate to aiding model manufacturers to producing quality, PRR HO models. He was the motivator to aiding Bowser in the B-6sb project due by years end. He also pushed Bowser to do a N-8 with applied grab irons which is in the works, along with other PRR related modeling with different manufacturers. Jim had a different way with people, unique to his own. He didn't care about anything but PRR, and he will be greatly missed. He was a mentor to me, getting me highly involved in the PRR, travelling to the RR Museum of PA to photograph the B-6sb for Bowser, and researching other projects for all us modelers. This is only food for thought: many of our PRR Veterans are up in years and do not have eternity to spend with us. We need to respect and listen to their stories, evan if the story takes an hour or 2 to get out. I am an advocate for the Phila. Chpters oral history's program. Lodged in the stories are unpricable facts. Yours in health, Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: [PRR] Ford City Tower Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 06:48:11 -0400 I am looking for a photograph of the tower that was at the lower end of Ford City, PA on the Allegheny Valley Branch of the PRR for a friend. Any help out there? Thank you in advance. DF Cramer _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/08/02 Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:19:05 -0400 "andy mulhollen" wrote: "I just wanted to relay a story that was told to me this weekend. Sometime during the last week, an IRATE guest actually spit in the face of our maintanence supervisor. What was she so mad about you ask???? We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone!" Too bad a cop wasn't around, I believe spitting in someone's face qualifies as an assault (at a minimum), in these days of HIV/AIDS. It's a disgusting act, in any case. Someone a while ago discussing this Horse Shoe Curve thread claimed NS's Pittsburgh division (or whatever they call it, probably QWE43209C or something equally as undeciperable) is still the world's busiest mountain railroad. Anyone know if this is really true? My guess is that UP over Sherman Hill may have taken over that honor, though the third track over the continental divide is separated from the other two on the original alignment by quite a distance. By the way, what -- if anything -- is happening with NS resurrecting the Atglen and Susquehanna? Is this actually going to happen or was it just someone's pipe dream? -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 09:50:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Great Model Railroads Video Series From: Jerry Britton Prior to going away on vacation (last week), I ordered up two of Allen Keller's "Great Model Railroads" videos. First one was Volume 10, the Reed brother's "Cumberland Valley System". This one has been deemed a classic in the n scale genre and I had seen it at least once in MR. The video really adds to the effect. Though even the Reed's cite some operational "low marks" (they wouldn't model multiple railroads if starting over), the scenery is superb! They demonstrate their process for creating super realistic rock cuts that would apply to almost any PRR modeler. The Reed's used the only flex track available to them at the time...code 80. It's amazing, now that I have code 55 in hand, how oversized it looks on video. Not unlike HO's code 100 once you start using code 83. I'm glad I went to code 55! Second was Volume 41, the just released video of the "Florida East Coast's Key West Extension" that was featured in MR about 18 months ago. This is an absolutely beautiful single track mainline that truly has a clear operating purpose...getting fresh water to the Florida Keys. Neat layout! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:31:44 +0000 Dr.Mulhollen and the list: It is shocking enough to hear about this incident and the result of spitting in maintenance supervisor's face. What is even more outrageous that it was a "woman" that did the spitting! (I use that word "woman" loosely here). Ted Andrews >From: andy mulhollen >To: prr talk >Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:35:31 -0700 (PDT) > >Greetings to the List, > I just wanted to relay a story that was told to >me this weekend. Sometime during the last week, an >IRATE guest actually spit in the face of our >maintanence supervisor. What was she so mad about you >ask???? We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! >Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone! > >Dr Andy Mulhollen >Secretary >Executive Committee >Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free >http://sbc.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 11:52:45 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Maybe it was a loose woman! Bennett Ted Andrews wrote: > > Dr.Mulhollen and the list: > > It is shocking enough to hear about this incident and the result of spitting > in maintenance supervisor's face. What is even more outrageous that it was a > "woman" that did the spitting! (I use that word "woman" loosely here). > > Ted Andrews > > >From: andy mulhollen > >To: prr talk > >Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:35:31 -0700 (PDT) > > > >Greetings to the List, > > I just wanted to relay a story that was told to > >me this weekend. Sometime during the last week, an > >IRATE guest actually spit in the face of our > >maintanence supervisor. What was she so mad about you > >ask???? We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! > >Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone! > > > >Dr Andy Mulhollen > >Secretary > >Executive Committee > >Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free > >http://sbc.yahoo.com > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:36:57 -0700 Everybody can relax. It would be JT Cooper, and I'm not wanted by the FBI John Cooper Klamath Falls, Oregon -----Original Message----- From: Jim Emerson To: Charles Ring ; VVA249@aol.com Cc: alex@arclyte.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, July 07, 2002 5:06 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper >FBI still looking for DB Cooper > >Jim Emerson >Lake Oswego, Oregon > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Charles Ring >Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 4:52 PM >To: VVA249@aol.com >Cc: alex@arclyte.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper > > >VVA249@aol.com wrote: > >> Would that be JB Cooper? beleve the FBI is still looking for him...... > >that's DB Cooper the FBI wants to see, or more likely his bones. > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:01:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Offtopic: Looking for John Cooper From: Jerry Britton On 7/8/02 1:36 AM, John Cooper (johncoop@ix.netcom.com) wrote: > Everybody can relax. It would be JT Cooper, and I'm not wanted by the FBI > At least as far as you know... ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:08:32 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve No, no, you see, all of you are just so wrong! Don't you GET it? They were MURDERING those trees. *That* is the right terminology. (ObPRR:) So, for the rest of us - how IS the view now? On Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 11:52:45AM -0400, Bennett Levin wrote: > Maybe it was a loose woman! > > Bennett > > Ted Andrews wrote: > > > > Dr.Mulhollen and the list: > > > > It is shocking enough to hear about this incident and the result of spitting > > in maintenance supervisor's face. What is even more outrageous that it was a > > "woman" that did the spitting! (I use that word "woman" loosely here). > > > > Ted Andrews > > > > >From: andy mulhollen > > >To: prr talk > > >Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > > >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:35:31 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Greetings to the List, > > > I just wanted to relay a story that was told to > > >me this weekend. Sometime during the last week, an > > >IRATE guest actually spit in the face of our > > >maintanence supervisor. What was she so mad about you > > >ask???? We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! > > >Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone! -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 12:34:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Ted Andrews wrote: > Dr.Mulhollen and the list: > > It is shocking enough to hear about this incident and the result of spitting > in maintenance supervisor's face. What is even more outrageous that it was a > "woman" that did the spitting! (I use that word "woman" loosely here). > a tree hugger... what was she doing at the curve anyway - most of those would like to ban diesels for polluting and would faint at the very idea of operating a steamer.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: G5s List, Just wanted to thank all who inquired about the G5 model that is for sale. I was able to take a pic this morning of the loco and thought I would add it here. You can search/read last week's email concerning this Brass Loco. I did manage to find out a bit on the smoke/fire box color. Elmer used a combnation of Alcohol and Graphite. How it was applied I do not know. ... http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/g5bren3.jpg ........Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:13:49 -0400 List, Reminds me of the EPA bureaucrat at a rail oriented conference in Washington that asked "When are the railroads going to adopt non-fossil fueled locomotives?" Hunh? Horses went out as motive power oh, say, 170 years ago! Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:41:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/08/02 In a message dated 7/8/02 9:24:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone!" >> Actually the surprise, to me, is that the reaction from the ecco-extremeists was not anticipated. RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 10:20:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Reminds me of the EPA bureaucrat at a rail oriented conference in Washington > that asked "When are the railroads going to adopt non-fossil fueled > locomotives?" Hunh? Horses went out as motive power oh, say, 170 years ago! Well, the PRR could have; electric power and nuclear or hydro power stations are about the only thing that fits the bill. So I guess the answer is when the federal government is willing to pay the railroads to electrify ... Well, actually, wood fired 4-4-0's count too, since wood isn't a fossil fuel ... -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Steam cabs Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:06:58 +0000 Any idea why the engineer is on the right side of a train rather than the left? I assume it has to do with signal placement and station platforms. Doesn't England use right hand running on their trains which is backward from the way they drive? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:12:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/08/02// Horseshoe trees It was written: "In a message dated 7/8/02 9:24:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: << We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone!" >> Actually the surprise, to me, is that the reaction from the ecco-extremeists was not anticipated. RR ------------------------------------- Folks, Seems I was just a bit early, as I had visited the curve about three weeks ago and nothing had been cut trackside at that time. There was however some chainsaw buzzing going on near the funacular/cable car/whatever that takes you up and down the hillside. Are they cutting trees in that area? If so, I hope they know what they're doing, as these were far down the slope and didn't really effect the view. I thought they added nicely to the scenery. Along the right out way, however, especially toward the lower side of the curve, the view was awful, or should I say nonexistant. I don't know what it'll be like to actually see the trains again, as it's been many years, back in PC days if I recall, since the trains were easily seen. I don't get up there that often, I'm afraid. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:24:54 -0400 Matt, Point is, all of PRR's electricity was generated in coal-fired power plants (fossil fueled) and virtually all of the NE corridor's catenary is still energized by fossil-fueled plants. Nuclear? If you thought 'fossil fuel" was anathema! Now, wood burners are an idea. We could use the trees being cut at Horsehoe Curve. Wonder how a wood-fired K4 would run? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew J. Brown" To: Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > Reminds me of the EPA bureaucrat at a rail oriented conference in Washington > > that asked "When are the railroads going to adopt non-fossil fueled > > locomotives?" Hunh? Horses went out as motive power oh, say, 170 years ago! > > Well, the PRR could have; electric power and nuclear or hydro power > stations are about the only thing that fits the bill. > > So I guess the answer is when the federal government is willing to pay the > railroads to electrify ... > > Well, actually, wood fired 4-4-0's count too, since wood isn't a fossil > fuel ... > > -Matt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:23:34 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam cabs The theory, as I have always heard it, was that on two track lines, the signals would be on the outside of the right of way, rather than between the tracks. Therefore, if you run trains "right handed", the signals would be on the right and the engineer would also need to be on the right because visibility across the track from the window of a steam loco cab is very poor. In the day of diesels (cab or chop nose hood units) visibility is no longer an issue and RRs have started putting signals on the left if it is more convenient in a particular location. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Any idea why the engineer is on the right side of a > train rather than the left? I assume it has to do with > signal placement and station platforms. Doesn't England > use right hand running on their trains which is backward > from the way they drive? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 14:37:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > List, > > Reminds me of the EPA bureaucrat at a rail oriented conference in Washington > that asked "When are the railroads going to adopt non-fossil fueled > locomotives?" Hunh? Horses went out as motive power oh, say, 170 years ago! > Such an idea does exist: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53591,00.html a plan to use stationary locomotives to fix the "energy crisis" in California. quoting: Moreover, the company is going to fuel them with 100-percent biodiesel, a cleaner-burning vegetable oil equivalent of the familiar petroleum product. ..... It costs $3 per gallon, but what is that to a tree hugger, esp one backed up by the federal mace? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:49:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Point is, all of PRR's electricity was generated in coal-fired power plants > (fossil fueled) and virtually all of the NE corridor's catenary is still > energized by fossil-fueled plants. Nuclear? If you thought 'fossil fuel" was > anathema! Oh, I know. But the point is that only electric has a chance of non fossil fuel power in the modern age. Of course, nuclear or hydro have their own environmental problems ;) -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:54:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam cabs On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Any idea why the engineer is on the right side of a > train rather than the left? I assume it has to do with > signal placement and station platforms. Doesn't England > use right hand running on their trains which is backward > from the way they drive? Trains in England drive on the same side as do their cars, just like most railroads in the US. Also like most American railroads, the engineer's position in a steam locomotive was normally the outside one -- in the English locomotives, that meant left hand drive, normally, while most American locomotives had the engineer's seat on the right. Reasons: firstly, easier to see signals on the 'outside' side; secondly, in passenger service, easier to look back and make sure all the doors are closed, passengers all on board, and the station staff or conductor is giving the signal to depart. Some English locomotives were right hand drive, e.g. the Flying Scotsman in its original configuration (as modelled in MS train sim) though it was later converted to left hand drive. -Matt (Englishman in California) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:15:56 -0400 From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve I was up there Saturday. They have only cleared the hillsides along the park (where the dirt trail and the old steps were). They haven't started down the track sides yet, so you can still only see from one end of the fence to the other. But, when I say cleared, I mean cleared. Those hillsides were clear down to the dirt!! Not even a weed in sight! Hopefully in the next week or so... On Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:08:32 -0400 Mark Bej wrote: No, no, you see, all of you are just so wrong! Don't you GET it? They were MURDERING those trees. *That* is the right terminology. (ObPRR:) So, for the rest of us - how IS the view now? On Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 11:52:45AM -0400, Bennett Levin wrote: > Maybe it was a loose woman! > > Bennett > > Ted Andrews wrote: > > > > Dr.Mulhollen and the list: > > > > It is shocking enough to hear about this incident and the result of spitting > > in maintenance supervisor's face. What is even more outrageous that it was a > > "woman" that did the spitting! (I use that word "woman" loosely here). > > > > Ted Andrews > > > > >From: andy mulhollen > > >To: prr talk > > >Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > > >Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:35:31 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >Greetings to the List, > > > I just wanted to relay a story that was told to > > >me this weekend. Sometime during the last week, an > > >IRATE guest actually spit in the face of our > > >maintanence supervisor. What was she so mad about you > > >ask???? We are cutting down those lovely trees!!! > > >Just goes to show you , You can't please everyone! -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 15:32:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve From: Jerry Britton On 7/8/02 3:15 PM, scottc@uplink.net (scottc@uplink.net) wrote: > I was up there Saturday. They have only cleared the hillsides along the park > (where the dirt trail and the old steps were). They haven't started down the > track sides yet, so you can still only see from one end of the fence to the > other. > Hope they have a clear understanding of what is needed...not a clear view of the parking lot below! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:24:31 -0500 As an engineer, I do not see how a "bio"-diesel fuel is any more efficient, or environmentall more freindly, than fossil produced diesel fuel. One of the products of combustion from either is carbon dioxide, which is an alleged green house gas. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:38 PM To: Gregg Mahlkov Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > List, > > Reminds me of the EPA bureaucrat at a rail oriented conference in Washington > that asked "When are the railroads going to adopt non-fossil fueled > locomotives?" Hunh? Horses went out as motive power oh, say, 170 years ago! > Such an idea does exist: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53591,00.html a plan to use stationary locomotives to fix the "energy crisis" in California. quoting: Moreover, the company is going to fuel them with 100-percent biodiesel, a cleaner-burning vegetable oil equivalent of the familiar petroleum product. ..... It costs $3 per gallon, but what is that to a tree hugger, esp one backed up by the federal mace? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Dick Ross Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 21:04:40 +0000 Dick, please contact me off line. thank you, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/08/02- Busiest Mountain Pass. Doug & list, Last time I heard, the ex PRR line between Altoona and Gallitizin is still the busiest "mountain" pass, BUT Union Pacific has the highest amout of trains on one of their mainlines. I just read that somewhere. And what is the new name for the Pittsburgh Division? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 19:58:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/08/02 From: John Sheets > It is shocking enough to hear about this incident and the result of spitting > in maintenance supervisor's face. What is even more outrageous that it was a > "woman" that did the spitting! (I use that word "woman" loosely here). If you doubt it, you have never been to a Chicago Blackhawks Hockey game. Women have changed my friends, take it as gospel from a close to middle aged bachelor!!!! John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:50:10 -0400 Not all. Safe Harbor and Holtzwood are Hydro-electric dams. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [SMTP:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:25 PM To: Matthew J. Brown; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Matt, Point is, all of PRR's electricity was generated in coal-fired power plants (fossil fueled) and virtually all of the NE corridor's catenary is still energized by fossil-fueled plants. Nuclear? If you thought 'fossil fuel" was anathema! Now, wood burners are an idea. We could use the trees being cut at Horsehoe Curve. Wonder how a wood-fired K4 would run? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew J. Brown" To: Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > Reminds me of the EPA bureaucrat at a rail oriented conference in Washington > > that asked "When are the railroads going to adopt non-fossil fueled > > locomotives?" Hunh? Horses went out as motive power oh, say, 170 years ago! > > Well, the PRR could have; electric power and nuclear or hydro power > stations are about the only thing that fits the bill. > > So I guess the answer is when the federal government is willing to pay the > railroads to electrify ... > > Well, actually, wood fired 4-4-0's count too, since wood isn't a fossil > fuel ... > > -Matt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:30:43 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam cabs In England trains are using the left track on double track lines, just like car traffic does on that island (valid for Scots and Welsh, too ...). In continental Europe, many countries use left-hand driving on railroads, as opposed to their normal road traffic. Examples are: France, Belgium, Switzerland, Italy Right-hand is used in Germany and Austria. Interestingly, the trains in French Alsace use the right track, as this part was under German administration in 1871-1918, when most of the railway signalling was built. They did not switch back after 1918, but use flyovers on the main lines crossing the former boarder. I understand that there are some places where left-hand running was adopted in USA due to geographical reasons, like on Cajon pass (i.e. easier grades for uphill running). In those spots, the engineer naturally is on the "wrong" side. Did such lines exist on the PRR (and/or do the exist still today), and if yes, was the signalling put to the other side of the track? Regards, Burkhard Sanner ndbprr@att.net schrieb: > Any idea why the engineer is on the right side of a > train rather than the left? I assume it has to do with > signal placement and station platforms. Doesn't England > use right hand running on their trains which is backward > from the way they drive? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:01:35 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam cabs Just to confuse the issue of sides further, Back in the eighties, when I was still running traind with VicRail we used to get some "L" class (SD-40 look-a-likes) through running from Western Australia. They had two full engineer's consoles, one on each side, and could be driven from either! The stated reason was that on long hauls (+1000kms) they could run with two drivers and they could share driving duties. My $US0.0115 ($AU0.02) Mick *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 8/07/2002 at 6:06 PM ndbprr@att.net did electronicly scribble: >Any idea why the engineer is on the right side of a >train rather than the left? I assume it has to do with >signal placement and station platforms. Doesn't England >use right hand running on their trains which is backward >from the way they drive? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. And thus finishes this communication from ndbprr@att.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:00:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] ELECTRIFICATION In a message dated 7/8/02 1:55:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, morven@byz.org writes: << Well, the PRR could have; electric power and nuclear or hydro power stations are about the only thing that fits the bill. >> ELECTRIFICATION, in the East does not solve the problem - just moves it around - power plants are predominantly coal burners.... RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Steam cabs Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:10:58 -0400 Listers, I believe the C&NW was a left hand running railroad because it was designed by British engineers (not the train operating kind:) Mandatory PRR content: What yard in Chicago did the PRR interchange with the C&NW? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Burkhard Sanner [mailto:Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de] Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 5:31 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam cabs In England trains are using the left track on double track lines, just like car traffic does on that island (valid for Scots and Welsh, too ...). In continental Europe, many countries use left-hand driving on railroads, as opposed to their normal road traffic. Examples are: France, Belgium, Switzerland, Italy Right-hand is used in Germany and Austria. Interestingly, the trains in French Alsace use the right track, as this part was under German administration in 1871-1918, when most of the railway signalling was built. They did not switch back after 1918, but use flyovers on the main lines crossing the former boarder. I understand that there are some places where left-hand running was adopted in USA due to geographical reasons, like on Cajon pass (i.e. easier grades for uphill running). In those spots, the engineer naturally is on the "wrong" side. Did such lines exist on the PRR (and/or do the exist still today), and if yes, was the signalling put to the other side of the track? Regards, Burkhard Sanner ndbprr@att.net schrieb: > Any idea why the engineer is on the right side of a > train rather than the left? I assume it has to do with > signal placement and station platforms. Doesn't England > use right hand running on their trains which is backward > from the way they drive? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:23:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam cabs In a message dated 7/9/02 4:50:59 AM Central Daylight Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: << I understand that there are some places where left-hand running was adopted in USA due to geographical reasons >> If any C&NW fans are on the list, they can chime in, as I have heard two reasons why it was left-hand running. One was because its original financiers were British. The second was that out of Chicago it was originally single-track. For whatever reason, the stations were on the North Side of the tracks. When they added the second track, they wanted the station on the inbound side as that would be where people would be more inclined to be waiting and buying tickets, whereas passengers departing an outbound train would tend to head for home immediately. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:27:18 -0400 From: davep Subject: [Fwd: [PRR] ELECTRIFICATION] << Well, the PRR could have; electric power and nuclear or hydro power stations are about the only thing that fits the bill. >> >ELECTRIFICATION, in the East does not solve the problem - >just moves it around - power plants are predominantly coal >burners.... Much of PRR power came/comes (as noted) from Hydro. Fixed combustion plants are easier to make 'clean' (er) than mobile, as fixed plants do not need to fit into a loading gage, and survive shocks of travel. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 07/08/02 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:55:40 +0000 I find the story a tad on the unbelieveable side. Are you telling me this woman climbed a steep hillside to confront a crew and then spit in the foremans face? Somehow this has the ring of urban myth to it to my way of thinking. > > It is shocking enough to hear about this incident and the result of spitting > > in maintenance supervisor's face. What is even more outrageous that it was a > > "woman" that did the spitting! (I use that word "woman" loosely here). > > If you doubt it, you have never been to a Chicago Blackhawks Hockey game. > > Women have changed my friends, take it as gospel from a close to middle aged > bachelor!!!! > > John > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Steam cabs Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:52:58 -0400 Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 3:05 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam cabs > Hi Earl, > No here in the UK trains run on the left as per our road > vehicles. Most folk are right-handed so the strongest arm is always oin the > steering wheel.This is one area where I think Brits have it right and the > most of the rest of the world wrong. Australia and Japan also follow UK > practice I believe. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Earl Myers > To: Davy Cormack > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 6:44 PM > Subject: Fw: [PRR] Steam cabs > > > > ????????????????????????????????????????????? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: "PRR-Talk" > > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:06 PM > > Subject: [PRR] Steam cabs > > > > > > > Any idea why the engineer is on the right side of a > > > train rather than the left? I assume it has to do with > > > signal placement and station platforms. Doesn't England > > > use right hand running on their trains which is backward > > > from the way they drive? > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] GLa K & AB brakes Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:13:36 -0500 List, Last fall when Bowser released the HO GLa's there was talk about someone making a master and casting the bracket for the AB air reservoir. Has someone been quietly working on this project ? And, would this be the same bracket used on the H21 / 22a's as well. I'm also looking for a drawing or photo that shows the K brake arrangement on the GLa as I would like to have some cars with K brakes. I would assume that some of the GLa's were scraped in the 50's still with K brakes. Pete Reinhold Elmira Branch, 1950 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:55:55 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] GLa K & AB brakes I used Plastruct channel bent to an appropriate "S" shape. It wasn't very difficult. I don't believe that the H21s had a similar bracket. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Peter Reinhold wrote: > List, > > Last fall when Bowser released the HO GLa's there was talk about > someone making a master and casting the bracket for the AB air reservoir. > Has someone been quietly working on this project ? And, would this be the > same bracket used on the H21 / 22a's as well. > > I'm also looking for a drawing or photo that shows the K brake > arrangement on the GLa as I would like to have some cars with K brakes. I > would assume that some of the GLa's were scraped in the 50's still with K > brakes. > > Pete Reinhold > Elmira Branch, 1950 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: RE: [PRR] GLa K & AB brakes Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:13:41 -0500 Andy and List, What a great and simple idea. Thanks! Pete Reinhold I used Plastruct channel bent to an appropriate "S" shape. It wasn't very difficult. I don't believe that the H21s had a similar bracket. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Peter Reinhold wrote: > List, > > Last fall when Bowser released the HO GLa's there was talk about > someone making a master and casting the bracket for the AB air reservoir. > Has someone been quietly working on this project ? And, would this be the > same bracket used on the H21 / 22a's as well. > > I'm also looking for a drawing or photo that shows the K brake > arrangement on the GLa as I would like to have some cars with K brakes. I > would assume that some of the GLa's were scraped in the 50's still with K > brakes. > > Pete Reinhold > Elmira Branch, 1950 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] benchwork question Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:52:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C22769.09E5CE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What type and size of plywood is best to use for a layout? Birch seems = to stick in my mind. Thanks. Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C22769.09E5CE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What type and size of plywood is best = to=20 use for a layout?  Birch seems to stick in my mind.=20 Thanks.
 
 
Jeff Smith
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C22769.09E5CE20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: [PRR] Baltimore and Eastern Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:12:45 -0700 Fellow Listers: I was examining the 1941 Delmarva Division Map from Keystone Crossings and noticed the Baltimore and Eastern RR. I have searched but found no other references. It seems to have a car ferry/float connection from Baltimore to Love Point on the Eastern Shore. Anyone have more info? I am going to search the RMIG (rail-marine information group) site now. Thanks Tom Kane Hitachi Data Systems Consulting Systems Engineer CSC Global Account Team Phone 703-481-4273 FAX 703-471-8348 tom.kane@hds.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] benchwork question Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:04:40 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2279D.014AE730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, It depends! I am involved in building a large portable layout in my local club built = using standard 4mm ply. The OO gauge layout upstairs is made of 6mm ply = while parts of another layout use 25mm. Going by our experiences I would suggest either 4mm or 6mm ply for both = board framing and tops. If you use 4mm you need to construct the basic = frame as a series of box girders and fill the void between the frames ( = spacers of 1" by the depth of your frames and about 3" long are fine ), = with expanding foam to increase rigidity. Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message -----=20 From: J. Smith=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 9:52 PM Subject: [PRR] benchwork question What type and size of plywood is best to use for a layout? Birch = seems to stick in my mind. Thanks. Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2279D.014AE730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff,
 
It depends!
 
I am involved in building a large = portable layout=20 in my local club built using standard 4mm ply. The OO gauge layout = upstairs is=20 made of 6mm ply while parts of another layout use 25mm.
 
Going by our experiences I would = suggest either 4mm=20 or 6mm ply for both board framing and tops. If you use 4mm you need to = construct=20 the basic frame as a series of box girders and fill the void between the = frames=20 ( spacers of 1" by the depth of your frames and about 3" long are fine = ), with=20 expanding foam to increase rigidity.
 
Patrick Grace
 
www.prr.org.uk
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 J.=20 Smith
Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 = 9:52=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] benchwork = question

What type and size of plywood is best = to=20 use for a layout?  Birch seems to stick in my mind.=20 Thanks.
 
 
Jeff = Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C2279D.014AE730-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore and Eastern Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:10:55 -0400 Tom, The Baltimore & Eastern was a wholly owned? subsidiary of the PRR which for some reason I do not fully understand actually had a separate payroll until the merger. When I worked in Baltimore in 1956 and 1966, there was one clerk in the Service Bureau that was paid by the B&E rather than the PRR. The connection from Baltimore to Love Point was a passenger steamer, not a carferry. At one time, the separate branches off the NYP&N lines that were the B&E were a through route from Love Point to Ocean City, MD. Hopefully others familiar with the Eastern Shore can add more information. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Kane" To: "PRR-Talk (E-mail)" Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 5:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Baltimore and Eastern > Fellow Listers: > > I was examining the 1941 Delmarva Division Map from Keystone Crossings and > noticed the Baltimore and Eastern RR. I have searched but found no other > references. It seems to have a car ferry/float connection from Baltimore to > Love Point on the Eastern Shore. Anyone have more info? I am going to > search the RMIG (rail-marine information group) site now. > > Thanks > > Tom Kane > Hitachi Data Systems > Consulting Systems Engineer > CSC Global Account Team > Phone 703-481-4273 > FAX 703-471-8348 > tom.kane@hds.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:57:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Baltimore and Eastern There were a couple of RRs in DelMarVa country which were controlled by PRR through stock ownership, but operated by their own organization(s). One was the Baltimore, Chesapeake & Atlantic, the other the Maryland, Delaware and Virginia. Both these pre-dated the NYP&N, both operated steam ships all over the bay and up various rivers and creeks. See: broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/ for valuation report data on them, circa 1917. According to Burgess and Kennedy, pg 542, in 1923 a big piece of the MD&V (25 mi. Lewes to Greenwood, Del.) was abandoned in 1923. In 1924 the rest (61 mi.) was sold at foreclosure and 38 mi. from Love Pt. to Denton, Md. ended up owned by (fanfare) the Baltimore and Eastern, which had been organized by PRR for the purpose. B&E also acquired the Love Pt. to Baltimore boat route. In 1927 or '28, the BC&A was sold at foreclosure and pieces of it were acquired by B&E (B&K, pg 631). What I couldn't find was any explanation as to why these properties were off in their own little world. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] Steam Cabs Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:09:25 +1000 While its true that British trains are left hand running, the driving position in the cab varied between companies. The Great Western Railway had the driver on the right of the cab and of course all of its signals were set up for visibility from this side. The British Railways Standard classes followed LMS practice with the driving position on the left, causing some problems with seeing signals when they were used on the Western. Ahh, the Great Western Railway - the GWR or God's Wonderful Railway - Belpaire fireboxes, standardisation across loco design and other areas, its own unique way of doing things (eg right hand drive!) and a supreme arrogance as to what the rest of the railway world was doing - sound familiar to Pennsy fans? Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' but born and bred to the GWR!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:33:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baltimore and Eastern From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" on 7/9/02 5:12 PM, Tom Kane at Tom.Kane@hds.com wrote: > I was examining the 1941 Delmarva Division Map from Keystone Crossings and > noticed the Baltimore and Eastern RR. I have searched but found no other > references. It seems to have a car ferry/float connection from Baltimore to > Love Point on the Eastern Shore. Anyone have more info? I am going to > search the RMIG (rail-marine information group) site now. > Let me know what you find out. I grew up boating on the Bay and am very familiar with the nautical side of the Love Point area. Would be interested in knowing how the railroad fit in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:46:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passing of Jim Kelly of PRRT&HS --part1_179.afb9c9b.2a5cec01_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/02 7:41:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Untimely death > From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." > Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 01:10:51 -0400 > > Dear list- > > I brings me sadness to let all of you know that in the early hours of July > 6, 2002, James Kelly past away. Jim gave many presentations at both > Philadelphia and National Chpt meetings. He was a photographer taking > photos of PRR steam in the 40's and 50's. I remember him telling me the > story of photographing K-4sa 612. He almost killed himself falling down an > embankment because he couldnt believe what he was seeing. Jim wouldn't > raise his camera for a diesel, he felt they were not worth the film. > Furthermore, he also was an advocate to aiding model manufacturers to > producing quality, PRR HO models. He was the motivator to aiding Bowser in > the B-6sb project due by years end. He also pushed Bowser to do a N-8 with > applied grab irons which is in the works, along with other PRR related > modeling with different manufacturers. Jim had a different way with > people, unique to his own. He didn't care about anything but PRR, and he > will be greatly missed. > > He was a mentor to me, getting me highly involved in the PRR, travelling to > the RR Museum of PA to photograph the B-6sb for Bowser, and researching > other projects for all us modelers. > > This is only food for thought: many of our PRR Veterans are up in years > and > do not have eternity to spend with us. We need to respect and listen to > their stories, evan if the story takes an hour or 2 to get out. I am an > advocate for the Phila. Chpters oral history's program. Lodged in the > stories are unpricable facts. > > Yours in health, > > Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. > Thanks for your note, Greg. I can't claim I knew Jim well, but I always enjoyed talking with him at PRRT&HS. In the past few years, we had exchanged data and findings on several commercial models he was helping to bring to market, particularly covered hoppers. Jim was a newspaper pressman, worked at night, and slept in the daytime. One thing he always enjoyed was telling about the way he had eliminated daytime telephone calls, especially from telemarketers (this shall remain secret for the benefit of other day sleepers who use it). One hazard was, if Jim got you on the phone at 10 pm on a night when he didn't have to go to work, you might be up kind of late . Jim will be missed -- we should be thankful for each of our links to Pennsy's past. As my late mother was fond of saying (in mock German accent), "ve are too soon oldt, und too late schmart". Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_179.afb9c9b.2a5cec01_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/02 7:41:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Untimely death
From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." <gregv@NetReach.Net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 01:10:51 -0400

Dear list-

I brings me sadness to let all of you know that in the early hours of July
6, 2002, James Kelly past away.  Jim gave many presentations at both
Philadelphia and National Chpt meetings.  He was a photographer taking
photos of PRR steam in the 40's and 50's.  I remember him telling me the
story of photographing K-4sa 612.  He almost killed himself falling down an
embankment because he couldnt believe what he was seeing.  Jim wouldn't
raise his camera for a diesel, he felt they were not worth the film.
Furthermore, he also was an advocate to aiding model manufacturers to
producing quality, PRR HO models.  He was the motivator to aiding Bowser in
the B-6sb project due by years end.  He also pushed Bowser to do a N-8 with
applied grab irons which is in the works, along with other PRR related
modeling with different manufacturers.   Jim had a different way with
people, unique to his own.  He didn't care about anything but PRR, and he
will be greatly missed.

He was a mentor to me, getting me highly involved in the PRR, travelling to
the RR Museum of PA to photograph the B-6sb for Bowser, and researching
other projects for all us modelers.

This is only food for thought:  many of our PRR Veterans are up in years and
do not have eternity to spend with us.   We need to respect and listen to
their stories, evan if the story takes an hour or 2 to get out.  I am an
advocate for the Phila. Chpters oral history's program.  Lodged in the
stories are unpricable facts.

Yours in health,

Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr.


Thanks for your note, Greg.  I can't claim I knew Jim well, but I always enjoyed talking with him at PRRT&HS.  In the past few years, we had exchanged data and findings on several commercial models he was helping to bring to market, particularly covered hoppers.

Jim was a newspaper pressman, worked at night, and slept in the daytime.  One thing he always enjoyed was telling about the way he had eliminated daytime telephone calls, especially from telemarketers (this shall remain secret for the benefit of other day sleepers who use it).  One hazard was, if Jim got you on the phone at 10 pm on a night when he didn't have to go to work, you might be up kind of late <G>.

Jim will be missed -- we should be thankful for each of our links to Pennsy's past.  As my late mother was fond of saying (in mock German accent), "ve are too soon oldt, und too late schmart".

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_179.afb9c9b.2a5cec01_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:11:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Steam Cabs From: John Sheets > I believe the C&NW was a left hand running railroad because it was designed > by British engineers (not the train operating kind:) CNW always denied it was English capital, they side it was simply sue to the fact that their Engineers could see the signals better, UP still runs these lines left side > > Mandatory PRR content: What yard in Chicago did the PRR interchange with > the C&NW? PRR used to use the CR&I down by the stockyards , CNW delivered to the PRR there, out of Wood St Yard. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Class X29B from Accurail Boxcar? (was: Results of Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:31:35 -0400 Bob Zoeller wrote: I have one unbuilt kit, which if I recall consists of a C&BT body with some resin parts and styrene to modify. I had purchased some of the Accurail 40-footers in the Silver Merchandise scheme. I haven't studied the rivet patterns (fortunately, they are at least closer to scale than the old days, hence not all that noticeable except in closeup) nor have I miked the car to X29 dimensions, but I wonder if it would be a good starting point to work from. Right now it is a train filler at the club for me. As I recall, one of the many unique features of the X29 versus the rest of the world's 40-footers is the closeness of the trucks to the ends of the car, so any rebuild needs a new frame/bolster arrangement. Got around to doing some e-mail inbox cleaning, and I don't recall anyone posting an answer to Bob's post from last Thanksgiving, and I couldn't find one in the archives. As it turns out, waiting over six months for a reply worked out in everyone's favor (in a way) - read on: Those Accurail cars painted in MS1 masquerading as Class X29B Merchandise Service cars are best kept as train fillers. Even though the Accurail cars have the correct 10-panel riveted sides and diagonal panel roofs later rebuilds, they have incorrect ends and doors. The prototype cars had R+3/4 early ("rolling pin") Improved Dreadnaught ends and 7 ft Youngstown doors; the Accurail model has late ("banana taper") Improved Dreadnaught ends and 6 ft Youngstown Doors that are molded onto the car sides which would be very difficult to modify without cutting up the car sides. Bob's correct about the underframe - all X29 rebuilds retained the 5 ft truck center to striker distance. So how does waiting over six months work out for everyone? Still no C&BT X29B kit (has it been over two years since the test shots?), but the retooled (the original kits are about 2 ft too long) Branchline 40 ft Post-war AAR boxcar kits are now available. The #1600 7 ft door kits should provide an excellent base for a kitbash - like C&BT's original tooling, the kits feature separate details; however, the Branchline kits are state of the art, with vastly superior tooling. In addition, the undecorated kits contain each end variation, both rectangular and diagonal panel roofs, and both 7- and 8-rung ladders. Modify the side sills per Greg Martin's article "Pennsy X29B" in the November 1992 Mainline Modeler. The underframe needs to be modified to represent the original X29 underframe, which can also be found in Greg's article. I haven't had a chance to check the Red Caboose X29 underframe against the Branchline kit to see if it will work out with the modified side sills, so that might be another approach. Of course, if you still have some early run 10-panel, R+3/4 end, 7 ft door, rectangular panel roof C&BT Car Shops kits that you want to use up, that's still an option. The Front Range/McKean kits have later "banana taper" Improved Dreadnaught ends and are not as good an option for Class X29B, though they're fair game for the later rebuilds if you leave a gap along the eaves to represent the "overhanging roof" eave of the later rebuilds. I haven't checked if the Branchline kits have the later ends; if they do, they're also fair game for the later rebuilds. If you do use the Branchline kit as the base for your kitbash, make sure you get ones made from the corrected tooling. The new kits have a picture of the car on the end of the box. Good luck! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:38:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update to my website Greetings one and all: I have finally had a chance to do an update to my website http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm. I have added a new section entitled Diesels Assigned by Region. The first three regions I have finished are the New York, Philadelphia, and Chesapeake (Sorry Rick). I should have the other ones finished by the end of the week. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/DIESELS.htm If anyone has a copy of the M.P. 229 from 1957 I would be most appreciative if they could photocopy me the pages from it. Right now I am inputting the information from Withers Publishing Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorials (with their permission). But it would be a whole lot easier if I had the pages in my hands to finish the job. Thanks, Randy Williamson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:38:25 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Update to my website Greetings one and all: I have finally had a chance to do an update to my website http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm. I have added a new section entitled Diesels Assigned by Region. The first three regions I have finished are the New York, Philadelphia, and Chesapeake (Sorry Rick). I should have the other ones finished by the end of the week. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/DIESELS.htm If anyone has a copy of the M.P. 229 from 1957 I would be most appreciative if they could photocopy me the pages from it. Right now I am inputting the information from Withers Publishing Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorials (with their permission). But it would be a whole lot easier if I had the pages in my hands to finish the job. Thanks, Randy Williamson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:54:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Class X29B from Accurail Boxcar? (was: Results In a message dated 7/9/02 10:39:00 PM Central Daylight Time, b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes: << I haven't had a chance to check the Red Caboose X29 underframe against the Branchline kit to see if it will work out with the modified side sills, so that might be another approach. >> Happy to see your post and the input therein. I am going to check the Walthers (Trains Miniature) underframe. I have some of these around and I would be more willing to carve one of these oldies up for an underframe part than a good Red Caboose kit. Shame to lose a fairly nice paint job on the Accurail cars. I was really impressed with the Merchandise Service paint job on the C&BT test shot car a couple years ago, so am sorry not to see the car. On a related note, my 60-foot Merchandise car could use a good styrene 7 foot door--I'll have to see if the Branchline door would fill the bill for a rare item commercially. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Class X29B from Accurail Boxcar? Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 06:17:33 -0400 Bob Zoeller wrote: "I am going to check the Walthers (Trains Miniature) underframe. I have some of these around and I would be more willing to carve one of these oldies up for an underframe part than a good Red Caboose kit." You'd have to correct the truck spacing, cross-members, and the incorrect shallow fishbelly if you use the old Train-Miniature underframe. Fortunately, Red Caboose sells X29 underframes separately - the underframe is Part No. RP-7000-01 @$4.00 and comes with the brake detail sprue. Unfortunately, they don't sell the floors separately, but the T-M floor should do after you modify it to take the Red Caboose underframe as long as nobody turns the car over. By the way, the Red Caboose 2D-F8 trucks are available with wheelsets (RP-5009 @$2.75/pair) or without (RP-5013 @$2.00/pair). "I was really impressed with the Merchandise Service paint job on the C&BT test shot car a couple years ago, so am sorry not to see the car." I was too. Has anyone talked to Dick Schweiger lately about this project? My concern is that if he waits too long, he'll be left behind by the quality of the kits coming out today (Proto 2000, Branchline, Kadee, etc.). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:16:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] BLI M1b --part1_132.107cbf69.2a5d717b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What would the M1b have been used for? Passenger service or freight? Or both :) Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_132.107cbf69.2a5d717b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What would the M1b have been used for? Passenger service or freight? Or both :)

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_132.107cbf69.2a5d717b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI M1b Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:30:27 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C227E3.A987BD60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The initial M1's were dual service locomotives. By the time the M1b came along(40 rebuilt M1a with increased boiler pressure, overfire jets, and slighltly increased heating surface) they were strictly for freight. M1b rebuilds occured between 1945-1953. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:16 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] BLI M1b What would the M1b have been used for? Passenger service or freight? Or both :) Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C227E3.A987BD60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 initial M1's were dual service locomotives.  By the time the M1b = came=20 along(40 rebuilt M1a with increased boiler pressure, overfire jets, and=20 slighltly increased heating surface) they were strictly for = freight.  M1b=20 rebuilds occured between 1945-1953. 
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of=20 USMCnewdog25431@cs.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 = 7:16=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] BLI=20 M1b

What would the M1b have been used for? = Passenger=20 service or freight? Or both :)

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era = Yahoo group=20
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition=20 period
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C227E3.A987BD60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:34:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M1b --part1_16a.1044276d.2a5d75ae_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <"What would the M1b have been used for? Passenger service or freight? Or both :) " Excellent! Just the answer I had hoped for! And such FAST service too! Thanks Greg! Now I need to make my reservation :) (got the wife convinced to do it) Sorry for the reply directly to you Greg! Meant to send it to the list. Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_16a.1044276d.2a5d75ae_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <"What would the M1b have been used for? Passenger service or freight? Or both :) "


Excellent! Just the answer I had hoped for! And such FAST service too!
Thanks Greg! Now I need to make my reservation :) (got the wife convinced to do it)
Sorry for the reply directly to you Greg! Meant to send it to the list.

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_16a.1044276d.2a5d75ae_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:03:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M1b --part1_9.2ab5d1e5.2a5e1736_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Didn't the M1b's occasionally pinch-hit on heavy holiday extras and mail trains? Weren't they equipped with steam lines? Chris Baker chrisandbelton2@aol.com --part1_9.2ab5d1e5.2a5e1736_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Didn't the M1b's occasionally pinch-hit on heavy holiday extras and mail trains?  Weren't they equipped with steam lines?

Chris Baker
chrisandbelton2@aol.com --part1_9.2ab5d1e5.2a5e1736_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI M1b Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:22:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C22847.2CB76240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit M1b's were rebuilt M1a's between '45 and '54. By the late 40's, early 50's, much dieselization occured. Steam was also being bumped off all divisions. Including the Phila. Division due to electrified locomotives. Out west had the T's, Q's, and J's. I'm sure a couple M1b's were in passenger service, but I cant think of anybooks photodocumenting that. If it is out there, let me know. I'd be interested to see it. The drop couplers did have steam lines. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 7:03 PM To: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI M1b Didn't the M1b's occasionally pinch-hit on heavy holiday extras and mail trains? Weren't they equipped with steam lines? Chris Baker chrisandbelton2@aol.com ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C22847.2CB76240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
M1b's=20 were rebuilt M1a's between '45 and '54.  By the late 40's, early = 50's, much=20 dieselization occured.  Steam was also being bumped off all=20 divisions.  Including the Phila. Division due to electrified=20 locomotives.  Out west had the T's, Q's, and J's.  I'm sure a = couple=20 M1b's were in passenger service, but I cant think of anybooks = photodocumenting=20 that. 
 
If it=20 is out there, let me know.  I'd be interested to see it.  The = drop=20 couplers did have steam lines.
 
Greg=20 Vlassopoulos, Jr.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 = 7:03=20 PM
To: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:=20 Re: [PRR] BLI M1b

Didn't the M1b's = occasionally=20 pinch-hit on heavy holiday extras and mail trains?  Weren't they = equipped=20 with steam lines?

Chris Baker
chrisandbelton2@aol.com =
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C22847.2CB76240-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] PRR Class X29 rebuilds and other lingering questions Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:00:42 -0400 Noticed a few more questions on PRR Class X29 rebuilds in the archives that never got answered - turns out that I answered a couple of Merchandise Service paint scheme questions on the Steam Era Freight Cars group a few days ago, so hopefully the info is still useful despite the extreme tardiness of the answers. First, a review of the three Merchandise Service paint schemes and the car classes they went on: MS1 (1947-1948): Classes X40B (100 cars), X41B (300 cars), X29B (some cars - total undetermined), X26C (three cars based on ORER entries noting assignment to Merchandise Service (105126) and LCL (105136, 107324). PHOTOS WANTED!) 23 1/4" wide aluminum band with 4 1/4" white edges. Background for keystone monogram toludine red vice freight car color. "Merchandise Service" letters toludine red with narrow white accent shadow. MS2 (1950): Class X29 (some cars - total undetermined). Banner simplified to all white. Keystone background and "Merchandise Service" lettering freight car color. MS3 (1954): Lettering diagram prepared for Class X40b boxcars in May 1954; very few cars assigned to LCL service received this scheme. Known photos are PRR 37080 (Class X40B) and PRR 504087 (Class X29). White banner with shadow keystone and freight car color "Merchandise Service). Despite what model manufacturers and custom painting services would have you believe, the following did not exist: MS1 on Class X29 MS1 on pseudo-Class X37 (Athearn boxcars) MS1 on any Class X43 subclass MS1 on Class X48 PS-1s DSMS on pseudo-Class X37 (MDC boxcars) DSMS on any Class X43 subclass Next, some answers to questions posted by Jerry Britton back on July 27, 2000 (Subj: C&BT X-29b's and X-29d's): "While the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it on the X-29b in '54?" Yes: PRR 27901, SK1a, c. June 1954 (Mainline Modeler December 1992) PRR 28647, SK1a, 7/31/1954 (PRR Color Guide Vol 2) PRR 30689, SK1a, c. October 1959 (PRR Color Guide Vol 3) "Was this, "Merchandise Service, Scheme 1", valid for this car? I can't help but recall the InterMountain PS-1 that some distributor incorrectly had custom painted in this scheme. It looked great, but it was wrong!" Yes - see the above info on MS1. "Again, while the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it on the X-29d in '54?" I haven't been able to find any Class X29D photos in SK1a; however, with the X29D rebuilding program taking place between 1952-1956 and documentation of Class X29B cars in SK1a, this is probably a safe bet. As always, I'd feel better with a photo or two. "20303 PRR X-29d Box Car -- "Don't Stand Me Still" yellow Slogan I believe this is correct. Can anyone confirm?" Yes, 500 Class X29D cars rebuilt in August 1955. These were the only cars to receive the slogan. The cars were otherwise in SK1b. Finally, some questions from Eldon Gatewood, also from July 27, 2000 "On another freight car question, I have also understood that PRR only had a small group of later boxes that did NOT have the diagonal panel roof. Obviously everything thru X41 did not have diagonals, except the rebuilds, but I have never heard confirmation about the X26 rebuilds. Does anyone know for sure? Those that had diagonals were all the X29 rebuilds, X38 rebuilds, and everything after X41. Do you guys believe this to be accurate?" Classes X26C and X29B had both rectangular panel and diagonal panel roofs applied during their rebuilding programs. Two Class X26C cars are shown on page 50 of PRR Color Guide Vol 3 - PRR 105007 has a rectangular panel roof, while PRR 107363 clearly shows a diagonal panel roof. As for Class X29B cars, PRR 30901 (Mainline Modeler December 1992) has a rectangular panel roof, while an overhead shot PRR 30689 (PRR Color Guide Vol 3, page 51) shows a diagonal panel roof. "And can we reopen the question as to how PRR boxes roofs were painted FROM THE FACTORY? I realize that repaints were coated top to trucks, but what about these new photos in the Cyc with ACF X41s with black roofs? What about all those old photos in CK with extremely dark roofs? Is it just peeling, or can I get some feedback (pleasant of course) on this issue?" A color builders photo of Class X41B PRR 118747 in MS1 is on page 59 of PRR Color Guide Vol 3. It clearly shows a Freight Car Color roof. Unfortunately, this doesn't answer the question of how the roofs were painted at off-line carbuilders as these cars were built at Altoona. Ben Hom By the way, there are NO DASHES in Pennsy car classes... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:48:29 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] X-26 Merchandise Service Hi All, I thought I knew almost everything about Merchandise Service cars because of my X-29 research until S Helper Service released them in S Scale recently as X-26. http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html Go to the 40' Steel Rebuilt Box Cars tab, then see roadnames. It is the first photo. I never knew anything about them, or have seen photos. I am sure that SHS would have not released them without proof that they existed. I was disappointed to find that I could not put the "colorful" Merchandise Service version on the straight X-29; that is on the X-29b. That is just Freight car red showing through a white band. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:04:34 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] The REAL real Pennsy S Models Update Hi All, I am VERY happy to announce the photos of our new S Scale X-29 pilot model have been posted to our website. www.pennsysmodels.com Please give a look. We are still fine tuning it, but are VERY happy with it. We have come a long way from this time last year, compared to the original pilot model photo at the bottom of the photos page. We still have a few cars available. Please do not hesitate to contact us. We would like to thank all of our customers for being so patient with us. The end product will be well worth the wait. Thank You, Bill Lane Dan Mastrobuono Pennsy S Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:44:19 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR traffic off the CR&I in Chicago In a message dated 7/10/02 1:12:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > Mandatory PRR content: What yard in Chicago did the PRR interchange with > > the C&NW? > > PRR used to use the CR&I down by the stockyards , CNW delivered to the PRR > there, out of Wood St Yard. > > John > This is fascinating. I, of course, had assumed the CR&I was a New York Central property. In any case, there's some evidence to believe that Ash Street (a Chicago Junction RR property affiliated with the CR&I) continued to be the source or interchange point of important traffic (perishables?, meat?) through Penn Central and Conrail days. This evidence comes from the Through Freight Schedules (arrangement of train origins, destinations, and makeups) of PRR, PC, and CR. Rick Tipton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:44:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR traffic off the CR&I in Chicago --part1_103.180b157d.2a5ec993_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/10/02 1:12:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > Mandatory PRR content: What yard in Chicago did the PRR interchange with > > the C&NW? > > PRR used to use the CR&I down by the stockyards , CNW delivered to the PRR > there, out of Wood St Yard. > > John > This is fascinating. I, of course, had assumed the CR&I was a New York Central property. In any case, there's some evidence to believe that Ash Street (a Chicago Junction RR property affiliated with the CR&I) continued to be the source or interchange point of important traffic (perishables?, meat?) through Penn Central and Conrail days. This evidence comes from the Through Freight Schedules (arrangement of train origins, destinations, and makeups) of PRR, PC, and CR. Rick Tipton --part1_103.180b157d.2a5ec993_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/10/02 1:12:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


>
> Mandatory PRR content:  What yard in Chicago did the PRR interchange with
> the C&NW?

PRR used to use the CR&I down by the stockyards , CNW delivered to the PRR
there, out of Wood St Yard.

John


This is fascinating.  I, of course, had assumed the CR&I was a New York Central property.  In any case, there's some evidence to believe that Ash Street (a Chicago Junction RR property affiliated with the CR&I) continued to be the source or interchange point of important traffic (perishables?, meat?) through Penn Central and Conrail days.  This evidence comes from the Through Freight Schedules (arrangement of train origins, destinations, and makeups) of PRR, PC, and CR.

Rick Tipton
 --part1_103.180b157d.2a5ec993_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:38:13 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR traffic off the CR&I in Chicago > > > Mandatory PRR content: What yard in Chicago did the PRR interchange with > > > the C&NW? > > PRR used to use the CR&I down by the stockyards , CNW delivered to the PRR > > there, out of Wood St Yard. > > John On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 07:44:19AM -0400, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > This is fascinating. I, of course, had assumed the CR&I was a New York > Central property. In any case, there's some evidence to believe that Ash > Street (a Chicago Junction RR property affiliated with the CR&I) continued to > be the source or interchange point of important traffic (perishables?, meat?) > through Penn Central and Conrail days. This evidence comes from the Through > Freight Schedules (arrangement of train origins, destinations, and makeups) > of PRR, PC, and CR. > Rick Tipton One of the advantages of having the PRR freight schedules (http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/) in text form is that they can be searched. A quick grep (Unix search program) search of these files shows that the following freight train schedules mention the C&NW: CNY-2, CO-3, CS-6, CS-8, DC-1, FW-8, FWC-2, LCL-1, LD-1, NF-6, NS-7, NS-8, NW-82, NW-88, PWC-1, PYC-1, TT-2, WC-1, WC-5, WC-7, WC-9. I don't have time to review these for you now (have to go to clinic soon), but please review them for yourself(ves) at your leisure. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:40:30 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR traffic off the CR&I in Chicago On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 07:44:19AM -0400, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: BTW, just for completeness, I did a search on "CR&I" and got nothing. However, this RR's nickname, "Chicago Junction", a.k.a. CJ, resulted in the following hits: CG-8, CNY-2, CO-2, CS-6, FW-8, FWC-2, LCL-1, NS-8, NW-82, NW-85, NW-88, PYC-1, WC-9 -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:00:51 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Pseudo X37 (was: PRR Class X29 rebuilds ...) Ben, Thank you for the great info on PRR box cars. Its a "keeper". I have to take issue however, from a model RR view. You reference to Athearn and MDC cars as "pseudo X37"s. Perhaps the most distinctive feature of the X37s was the internally framed carline roof. It makes the X37 fundamentally an AAR boxcar with an X29 roof. Since roofs are the most prominent feature of any HO model, and both the Athearn and MDC cars have outside braced, rectangular panel roofs, I can't think of them as pseudo X37s. They are perhaps closer to pseudo X41s. But of course X41s had 7 and 8 foot doors and the two models have 6 foot doors. So the answer perhaps is that they are just plain "pseudo" ;) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:28:36 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] Accurail boxcars Does the 40-foot-AAR-boxcar in PRR-colours, Accurail # 3204, have a real PRR prototype, and if so, what would be the class? And what about 50-foot-AAR-boxcars? I also understand that PRR never owned PS-1 boxcars (weel, therwise Kadee or Accurail will have released a version for sure). Is that info correct? I know Rob Schoenbergs freight car pages, but without a class # for starting, it may be a long way to find the answer to my questions. Thankful for any enlightment, Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Accurail boxcars Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:14:05 -0400 Didn't the PRR buy a HUGE order of about 26? :) Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Burkhard Sanner [mailto:Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de] Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 9:29 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Accurail boxcars Does the 40-foot-AAR-boxcar in PRR-colours, Accurail # 3204, have a real PRR prototype, and if so, what would be the class? And what about 50-foot-AAR-boxcars? I also understand that PRR never owned PS-1 boxcars (weel, therwise Kadee or Accurail will have released a version for sure). Is that info correct? I know Rob Schoenbergs freight car pages, but without a class # for starting, it may be a long way to find the answer to my questions. Thankful for any enlightment, Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRR at Tallahassee Train show on 7/13 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:25:55 -0400 Lists, I don't know if there are any PRR fans in the area, but I will have my N scale 2 ft. by 4 ft.. PRR layout at the Big Bend Model Railroad Show and Sale at the North Florida Fairgrounds, Tallahassee, Florida on Saturday, July 13, from 10 AM to 5 PM. The show has outgrown the former site at the Elks Club on Magnolia and this year will be hald in the building that has been used by GATS shows in the past. The Fairgorunds are on S. Monroe St., several miles south of the Capitol. I will be running my just completed H3 2-8-0 kitbashed from an MDC Roundhouse Consolidation. Look forward to seeing any of you there. I will be wearing my World's Greatest Hobby Ambassador's button. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] brake resevoir dimensioned drawing Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:29:32 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C228B5.15291240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List; Anybody know where I can get a dimensioned drawing of the air tank and = the cylinder?? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C228B5.15291240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List;
 Anybody know where I can get a = dimensioned=20 drawing of the air tank and the cylinder??
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C228B5.15291240-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:48:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] X-26 Merchandise Service Hi All, I thought I knew almost everything about Merchandise Service cars because of my X-29 research until S Helper Service released them in S Scale recently as X-26. http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html Go to the 40' Steel Rebuilt Box Cars tab, then see roadnames. It is the first photo. I never knew anything about them, or have seen photos. I am sure that SHS would have not released them without proof that they existed. I was disappointed to find that I could not put the "colorful" Merchandise Service version on the straight X-29; that is on the X-29b. That is just Freight car red showing through a white band. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:10:43 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail boxcars The PRR owned 12 (I think) PS-1s with cushioned underframe. They were X48s. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Burkhard Sanner wrote: > Does the 40-foot-AAR-boxcar in PRR-colours, > Accurail # 3204, have a real PRR prototype, > and if so, what would be the class? > And what about 50-foot-AAR-boxcars? > > I also understand that PRR never owned PS-1 > boxcars (weel, therwise Kadee or Accurail will > have released a version for sure). Is that info > correct? > > I know Rob Schoenbergs freight car pages, but > without a class # for starting, it may be a long > way to find the answer to my questions. > > Thankful for any enlightment, > > Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:30:00 -0400 Holtwood is a coal fired, steam generating plant. They used to burn the coal dust dredged up from the Susquehana near Shank's Ferry area. They now truck in anthracite to power the plant. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Spear" To: "'Gregg Mahlkov'" ; "Matthew J. Brown" ; Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > Not all. Safe Harbor and Holtzwood are Hydro-electric dams. > Garry Spear > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregg Mahlkov [SMTP:mahlkov@gtcom.net] > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:25 PM > To: Matthew J. Brown; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > > Matt, > > Point is, all of PRR's electricity was generated in coal-fired power plants > (fossil fueled) and virtually all of the NE corridor's catenary is still > energized by fossil-fueled plants. Nuclear? If you thought 'fossil fuel" was > anathema! > > Now, wood burners are an idea. We could use the trees being cut at Horsehoe > Curve. Wonder how a wood-fired K4 would run? > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew J. Brown" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve > > > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > > > Reminds me of the EPA bureaucrat at a rail oriented conference in > Washington > > > that asked "When are the railroads going to adopt non-fossil fueled > > > locomotives?" Hunh? Horses went out as motive power oh, say, 170 years > ago! > > > > Well, the PRR could have; electric power and nuclear or hydro power > > stations are about the only thing that fits the bill. > > > > So I guess the answer is when the federal government is willing to pay the > > railroads to electrify ... > > > > Well, actually, wood fired 4-4-0's count too, since wood isn't a fossil > > fuel ... > > > > -Matt > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [SPAM] [PRR] PRR N5 Photos Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:07:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2290E.286A47D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while ago, there was a lively thread on surviving PRR cabin cars. One = that was mentioned was on a dinner train in Lincoln, NH. I have taken = five pix of the cabin in its new paint. Would like to share with the = list, but unsure how to do that. Help on this would be appreciated. Thanks. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2290E.286A47D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A while ago, there was a lively thread = on surviving=20 PRR cabin cars. One that was mentioned was on a dinner train in Lincoln, = NH. I=20 have taken five pix of the cabin in its new paint. Would like to share = with the=20 list, but unsure how to do that. Help on this would be = appreciated.
 
Thanks.
 
Tom Mahon
Merrimack, = NH
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2290E.286A47D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:12:19 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] [SPAM] Re: [PRR] PRR traffic off the CR&I in Chicago From: Paul W Metzger Here's some of the deliveries PRR made in Chicago, gleaned from Mark Bej's site: LCL-1 Chicago Terminal Clearance Inc. To C&NW RR-Proviso Traffic for C&NW - Grand Ave. To C&NW RR-Grand Ave. Traffic for C&NW - 40th Ave. To C&NW - 40th Ave. PWC-1 delivered to CNW-Proviso Yard PYC-1: delivered to CNW-Proviso Yard WC-1 delivered to CNW-Grand Ave WC-5 delivered to CNW-Proviso Yard WC-9 CNW-40th Ave Paul On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:40:30 -0400 Mark Bej writes: > On Thu, Jul 11, 2002 at 07:44:19AM -0400, RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > BTW, just for completeness, I did a search on "CR&I" and got > nothing. > However, this RR's nickname, "Chicago Junction", a.k.a. CJ, > resulted > in the following hits: > > CG-8, CNY-2, CO-2, CS-6, FW-8, FWC-2, LCL-1, NS-8, NW-82, > NW-85, NW-88, PYC-1, WC-9 > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [SPAM] [PRR] Re: Pseudo X37 Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:29:14 -0400 Andy Miller wrote: I have to take issue however, from a model RR view. You reference to Athearn and MDC cars as "pseudo X37"s. Perhaps the most distinctive feature of the X37s was the internally framed carline roof. It makes the X37 fundamentally an AAR boxcar with an X29 roof. Since roofs are the most prominent feature of any HO model, and both the Athearn and MDC cars have outside braced, rectangular panel roofs, I can't think of them as pseudo X37s. They are perhaps closer to pseudo X41s. But of course X41s had 7 and 8 foot doors and the two models have 6 foot doors. So the answer perhaps is that they are just plain "pseudo" ;) Agreed - As far as Pennsy modelers are concerned, these cars are just plain "pseudo". However, I labeled them "pseudo X37"s because for the longest time, modelers thought Class X37 boxcars could be modeled using AAR boxcar kits such as the Athearn and MDC kits. Even Jim Six penned an article in the May 1990 Model Railroading using a Front Range boxcar kit to do a Class X37B, which not only got the roof wrong, but also the ends. The roof is the most visible difference, but it's not the only one. The doors are 7 ft vice 6 ft, and the sides feature an unusual alternating rivet pattern - as you look at the panels, you'll see alternating rows of different numbers of rivets. Fortunately, as Pennsy boxcars go, this was a pretty small class (1000 cars) - HO modelers are fortunate that they have the Sunshine kits for Class X37 and subclasses. BTW, you did mean "pseudo X43s" instead of X41s, right? The X41s were 50 ft cars... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [SPAM] Re: [PRR] Accurail boxcars Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:43:25 -0400 Burkhard Sanner asked: "Does the 40-foot-AAR-boxcar in PRR-colours, Accurail # 3204, have a real PRR prototype, and if so, what would be the class?" The Accurail #3204 PRR 40 ft AAR boxcar has no Pennsy prototype. It is closest to PRR Class X43B; however, the Class X43B cars had 7 ft doors with many having 5-panel Superior doors. The Accurail 6 ft Youngstown doors are cast on and can't be replaced without major surgery to the carbody. Beware the X43 subclasses - the cars came from several different carbuilders and are not consistent within each subclass. This issue is one Greg Martin and Rick Tipton have been working to sort out. In the meantime, always model from a photo any car from Class X43A, X43B, and X43C. "I also understand that PRR never owned PS-1 boxcars (otherwise Kadee or Accurail will have released a version for sure). Is that info correct?" No. PRR 47000-47019, Class X48, 20 cars. These cars, delivered in February 1954, were the first new cars to be painted in SK1a. Accurail has a version (#3421) which is decorated in a mostly correct SK1a paint scheme (the ends need to be painted black); however, the 20 Class X48 cars had a unique Pullman-Standard cushioned underframe that were only on a small number of PS-1s on the PRR, N&W, and WP. See Jim Kinkaid's "Pullman-Standard's Early Cushioned Boxcar" in the January 2002 Mainline Modeler. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:16:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT -- [SPAM} Prefix From: Jerry Britton Sorry if some list traffic came through with a [SPAM} prefix. I am testing new mail filtering software which screens mail BEFORE it gets processed by the mail server. As a visual flag, I had it inserting the prefix but had thought it would only affect non-list mail. I have turned off the prefix and soon all list traffic should appear normal. Again, sorry! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:54:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail boxcars --part1_3c.210787b8.2a5f82b7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/11/2002 9:28:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: > I also understand that PRR never owned PS-1 > boxcars (weel, therwise Kadee or Accurail will > have released a version for sure). Is that info > correct? > > The PRR did own PS-1's Class X48. However, all of the PRR cars had cushioned underframes which are not on the models currently available. Rich Orr --part1_3c.210787b8.2a5f82b7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/11/2002 9:28:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes:


I also understand that PRR never owned PS-1
boxcars (weel, therwise Kadee or Accurail will
have released a version for sure). Is that info
correct?



The PRR did own PS-1's Class X48.  However, all of the PRR cars had cushioned underframes which are not on the models currently available.

Rich Orr --part1_3c.210787b8.2a5f82b7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] X-26 Merchandise Service Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:01:26 -0400 Bill Lane wrote: I thought I knew almost everything about Merchandise Service cars because of my X-29 research until S Helper Service released them in S Scale recently as X-26. http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html Go to the 40' Steel Rebuilt Box Cars tab, then see roadnames. It is the first photo. I never knew anything about them, or have seen photos. I am sure that SHS would have not released them without proof that they existed. Bill, I hate to break it to you, but there are quite a few problems with these models: The Prototype: Even though Youngstown marketed kits to the railroads during the 1930s to rebuild single- and double-sheathed boxcars, each individual railroad approached rebuilding cars in a different manner, with some roads simply replacing the sides while retaining the original roof and ends; others replacing the sides and roof while retaining the ends, and one (KCS) doing a USRA DS rebuild similar to Class X29B, with a modern boxcar body on top of an old underframe. Almost all rebuilds increased the height of the car, and railroads took different approaches to making the ends taller, with some adding a blank panel and others splicing in sections of Murphy ends. The cars were also widened - a reliable spotting feature of a rebuilt SS or DS boxcar is an indented side sill with trapezoidal or triangular brackets supporting the new steel sides. The wider cars required end modifications as well - most railroads simply used an angle to join the ends to the side creating an indent there, but some roads used sheet metal to widen the ends creating a more familiar square corner. The original trucks were almost always reused; the underframe was always reused. The net result is that rebuilt boxcars were unique to each railroad. The Model: There are several problems with the S Helper Service model. The model has eight-panel steel sides, which is correct for many of the rebuilds except ATSF and PRR, who used ten-panel sides. However, the sides have two problems. First, the side sills are incorrect for any SS or DS rebuild - there is no noticeable inset, and the brackets are actually closer to those used on Class X29 rebuilds than anything used on an SS or DS rebuild. Without this inset, the car looks too narrow and fails to capture the look of a wider new carbody fitted to a narrow older underframe. In fact, it's pretty obvious that the tooling for this car was modified from S Helper Service's USRA SS boxcar. This model is closest to the ACL and SL-SF USRA DS rebuilds; however, it lacks the heavy fishbelly underframe of the DS rebuilds. The Model as Class X26C: The model is a poor representation of Class X26C. Prototype photo links: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=prr.x26c.1097601.gif &fr= http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR109760_X26c_steam town_broadside_RayThibaut.jpg&fr= http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=prr.x26c.1058081.gif &fr= Here's the comparison: Roof: Incorrect. The model has the original USRA steel sheathed roof; Class X26C had either a rectangular panel (early rebuilds) or diagonal panel (late rebuilds) roof. Ends: Incorrect. Class X26C did retain the original 5/5/5 Murphy ends, but the shops modified them with sheet metal, adding a blank panel at the top to make them taller and sheet metal to widen them, wrapping around the sides to create a square corner. The model has unmodified 5/5/5 Murphy ends. Sides: Incorrect. Class X26C had ten-panel sides. The model has eight-panel sides. Additionally, Class X26C had a distinct inset side sill with trapezoidal support brackets, which the model lacks. Underframe: If it's the same one as the USRA SS car, it's correct. Paint Schemes: Bill, I know you've been taking great pains to ensure accurate paint schemes on your X29 project, but unfortunately, other manufacturers do not. Even if I ignore the shortcomings of the model as a representation of a SS or DS rebuild and consider paint schemes for those cars, there are still several bogus schemes here. All of the GN schemes are suspect. They did go on rebuilt boxcars; however, those cars were rebuilds of DS cars similar to the 1937 AAR steel boxcar design, which had Dreadnaught ends and rectangular panel roofs familiar to HO scale modelers as the Athearn's 40 ft DS boxcar. In fact, GN never rebuilt their USRA DS boxcars, and they were some of the last in revenue service surviving into 1965. I based my call on MS1 schemes on Class X26C using ORER data from Richard Burg, which indicated a total of three cars in Merchandise or LCL service. I would very much like to see a picture to back this up. I am very skeptical of the MS3 scheme available on this car - it makes it a rare scheme on a rarer car, and this definitely needs a photo to support it. I'm sorry Bill, but asking me to base research on what model manufacturers put on models is like asking me to put money in Enron's 401(k) plan. This model's shortcomings combined with the presence of bogus paint schemes doesn't lead me to give the benefit of the doubt. Serious S scalers deserve better. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:00:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail boxcars --part1_40.208108bc.2a5f8425_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: It was 20 Class X48 47000-47019 blt 2-54 Rich Orr --part1_40.208108bc.2a5f8425_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All:

It was 20 Class X48 47000-47019 blt 2-54

Rich Orr --part1_40.208108bc.2a5f8425_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:18:53 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] Bowser HO "un-numbered" cabin cars Hello all: I recently picked up 4 of these cars and today I demolished my first attempt at the "decals" they include. So, two questions... One, are they decals or dry transfers or what? Two, any tips, hints, tricks on putting them on the cabins? Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] X-26 Merchandise Service Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:31:33 -0400 For more background information on rebuilt boxcars, see "Steel Side USRA Rebuilds," Parts 1 and 2 by Martin Lofton in the September and October 1989 Railroad Model Craftsman. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:01:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] X-26 Merchandise Service Bill Lane wrote: I thought I knew almost everything about Merchandise Service cars because of my X-29 research until S Helper Service released them in S Scale recently as X-26. http://www.showcaseline.com/index.html Go to the 40' Steel Rebuilt Box Cars tab, then see roadnames. It is the first photo. I never knew anything about them, or have seen photos. I am sure that SHS would have not released them without proof that they existed. Bill, I hate to break it to you, but there are quite a few problems with these models: The Prototype: Even though Youngstown marketed kits to the railroads during the 1930s to rebuild single- and double-sheathed boxcars, each individual railroad approached rebuilding cars in a different manner, with some roads simply replacing the sides while retaining the original roof and ends; others replacing the sides and roof while retaining the ends, and one (KCS) doing a USRA DS rebuild similar to Class X29B, with a modern boxcar body on top of an old underframe. Almost all rebuilds increased the height of the car, and railroads took different approaches to making the ends taller, with some adding a blank panel and others splicing in sections of Murphy ends. The cars were also widened - a reliable spotting feature of a rebuilt SS or DS boxcar is an indented side sill with trapezoidal or triangular brackets supporting the new steel sides. The wider cars required end modifications as well - most railroads simply used an angle to join the ends to the side creating an indent there, but some roads used sheet metal to widen the ends creating a more familiar square corner. The original trucks were almost always reused; the underframe was always reused. The net result is that rebuilt boxcars were unique to each railroad. The Model: There are several problems with the S Helper Service model. The model has eight-panel steel sides, which is correct for many of the rebuilds except ATSF and PRR, who used ten-panel sides. However, the sides have two problems. First, the side sills are incorrect for any SS or DS rebuild - there is no noticeable inset, and the brackets are actually closer to those used on Class X29 rebuilds than anything used on an SS or DS rebuild. Without this inset, the car looks too narrow and fails to capture the look of a wider new carbody fitted to a narrow older underframe. In fact, it's pretty obvious that the tooling for this car was modified from S Helper Service's USRA SS boxcar. This model is closest to the ACL and SL-SF USRA DS rebuilds; however, it lacks the heavy fishbelly underframe of the DS rebuilds. The Model as Class X26C: The model is a poor representation of Class X26C. Prototype photo links: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=prr.x26c.1097601.gif &fr= http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR109760_X26c_steam town_broadside_RayThibaut.jpg&fr= http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=prr.x26c.1058081.gif &fr= Here's the comparison: Roof: Incorrect. The model has the original USRA steel sheathed roof; Class X26C had either a rectangular panel (early rebuilds) or diagonal panel (late rebuilds) roof. Ends: Incorrect. Class X26C did retain the original 5/5/5 Murphy ends, but the shops modified them with sheet metal, adding a blank panel at the top to make them taller and sheet metal to widen them, wrapping around the sides to create a square corner. The model has unmodified 5/5/5 Murphy ends. Sides: Incorrect. Class X26C had ten-panel sides. The model has eight-panel sides. Additionally, Class X26C had a distinct inset side sill with trapezoidal support brackets, which the model lacks. Underframe: If it's the same one as the USRA SS car, it's correct. Paint Schemes: Bill, I know you've been taking great pains to ensure accurate paint schemes on your X29 project, but unfortunately, other manufacturers do not. Even if I ignore the shortcomings of the model as a representation of a SS or DS rebuild and consider paint schemes for those cars, there are still several bogus schemes here. All of the GN schemes are suspect. They did go on rebuilt boxcars; however, those cars were rebuilds of DS cars similar to the 1937 AAR steel boxcar design, which had Dreadnaught ends and rectangular panel roofs familiar to HO scale modelers as the Athearn's 40 ft DS boxcar. In fact, GN never rebuilt their USRA DS boxcars, and they were some of the last in revenue service surviving into 1965. I based my call on MS1 schemes on Class X26C using ORER data from Richard Burg, which indicated a total of three cars in Merchandise or LCL service. I would very much like to see a picture to back this up. I am very skeptical of the MS3 scheme available on this car - it makes it a rare scheme on a rarer car, and this definitely needs a photo to support it. I'm sorry Bill, but asking me to base research on what model manufacturers put on models is like asking me to put money in Enron's 401(k) plan. This model's shortcomings combined with the presence of bogus paint schemes doesn't lead me to give the benefit of the doubt. Serious S scalers deserve better. Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:31:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] X-26 Merchandise Service For more background information on rebuilt boxcars, see "Steel Side USRA Rebuilds," Parts 1 and 2 by Martin Lofton in the September and October 1989 Railroad Model Craftsman. Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:31:43 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering Hi Ben, On the lettering schemes for Merchandise Service boxcars, let me contribute a few car numbers from my photo index (mostly of published photos). Should we remind folks that MS1 and MS2 were both adaptations of the CK lettering of their day, and that MS3 is essentially an elaboration of SK1b? In a message dated 7/11/02 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR Class X29 rebuilds and other lingering questions > From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" > Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:00:42 -0400 > > Noticed a few more questions on PRR Class X29 rebuilds in the archives that > never got answered - turns out that I answered a couple of Merchandise > Service paint scheme questions on the Steam Era Freight Cars group a few > days ago, so hopefully the info is still useful despite the extreme > tardiness of the answers. > > > First, a review of the three Merchandise Service paint schemes and the car > classes they went on: > > MS1 (1947-1948): Classes X40B (100 cars), X41B (300 cars), X29B (some > cars - total undetermined), X26C (three cars based on ORER entries noting > assignment to Merchandise Service (105126) and LCL (105136, 107324). > PHOTOS WANTED!) 23 1/4" wide aluminum band with 4 1/4" white > edges. Background for keystone monogram toludine red vice freight car > color. "Merchandise Service" letters toludine red with narrow white accent > shadow. Have indexed in MS1: X29B #28049, #30901, #30998 X40B #37007 (had Steins load retainer) X41B #118502, #118600, #118728, #118770 X26C none > > MS2 (1950): Class X29 (some cars - total undetermined). Banner simplified > to all white. Keystone background and "Merchandise Service" lettering > freight car color. Have indexed in MS2: X29 #92410, #92419, #101393, #567427, #568169. also probably #505932 with 1950 weigh date. > > MS3 (1954): Lettering diagram prepared for Class X40b boxcars in May 1954; > very few cars assigned to LCL service received this scheme. Known photos > are > PRR 37080 (Class X40B) and PRR 504087 (Class X29). White banner > with shadow keystone and freight car color "Merchandise Service). Only found X29 #504087 (tell me where you found #37080). > > Despite what model manufacturers and custom painting services would have > you > believe, the following did not exist: > > MS1 on Class X29 > MS1 on pseudo-Class X37 (Athearn boxcars) > MS1 on any Class X43 subclass > MS1 on Class X48 PS-1s > DSMS on pseudo-Class X37 (MDC boxcars) > DSMS on any Class X43 subclass Hear hear! DSMS (an elaboration of SK1b) was only used on 500 of the X29D cars rebuilt in August of 1955. I don't know which part of August these cars were painted in this scheme. > > > Next, some answers to questions posted by Jerry Britton back on July 27, > 2000 (Subj: C&BT X-29b's and X-29d's): > > "While the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it on the > X-29b in '54?" > Yes: > PRR 27901, SK1a, c. June 1954 (Mainline Modeler December 1992) > PRR 28647, SK1a, 7/31/1954 (PRR Color Guide Vol 2) > PRR 30689, SK1a, c. October 1959 (PRR Color Guide Vol 3) Note that these are 3 of the less than a dozen available pix showing SK1a on a repainted boxcar. The 20 X48's, of course, were painted in this scheme new. > > > "Again, while the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it > on > the X-29d in '54?" > I haven't been able to find any Class X29D photos in SK1a; however, with > the > X29D rebuilding program taking place between 1952-1956 and documentation of > Class X29B cars in SK1a, this is probably a safe bet. As always, I'd feel > better with a photo or two. I have no X29D photos in SK1a either -- that doesn't prove they never existed, but if SK1a were used in this rebuilding program, you'd think there'd be some evidence of it. There was (naturally) a marked tendency to take X29D photos in DSMS, but photos of the plain SK1b include #24477 and 26194. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:31:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering --part1_93.1fe0ee58.2a5fc3bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ben, On the lettering schemes for Merchandise Service boxcars, let me contribute a few car numbers from my photo index (mostly of published photos). Should we remind folks that MS1 and MS2 were both adaptations of the CK lettering of their day, and that MS3 is essentially an elaboration of SK1b? In a message dated 7/11/02 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR Class X29 rebuilds and other lingering questions > From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" > Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:00:42 -0400 > > Noticed a few more questions on PRR Class X29 rebuilds in the archives that > never got answered - turns out that I answered a couple of Merchandise > Service paint scheme questions on the Steam Era Freight Cars group a few > days ago, so hopefully the info is still useful despite the extreme > tardiness of the answers. > > > First, a review of the three Merchandise Service paint schemes and the car > classes they went on: > > MS1 (1947-1948): Classes X40B (100 cars), X41B (300 cars), X29B (some > cars - total undetermined), X26C (three cars based on ORER entries noting > assignment to Merchandise Service (105126) and LCL (105136, 107324). > PHOTOS WANTED!) 23 1/4" wide aluminum band with 4 1/4" white > edges. Background for keystone monogram toludine red vice freight car > color. "Merchandise Service" letters toludine red with narrow white accent > shadow. Have indexed in MS1: X29B #28049, #30901, #30998 X40B #37007 (had Steins load retainer) X41B #118502, #118600, #118728, #118770 X26C none > > MS2 (1950): Class X29 (some cars - total undetermined). Banner simplified > to all white. Keystone background and "Merchandise Service" lettering > freight car color. Have indexed in MS2: X29 #92410, #92419, #101393, #567427, #568169. also probably #505932 with 1950 weigh date. > > MS3 (1954): Lettering diagram prepared for Class X40b boxcars in May 1954; > very few cars assigned to LCL service received this scheme. Known photos > are > PRR 37080 (Class X40B) and PRR 504087 (Class X29). White banner > with shadow keystone and freight car color "Merchandise Service). Only found X29 #504087 (tell me where you found #37080). > > Despite what model manufacturers and custom painting services would have > you > believe, the following did not exist: > > MS1 on Class X29 > MS1 on pseudo-Class X37 (Athearn boxcars) > MS1 on any Class X43 subclass > MS1 on Class X48 PS-1s > DSMS on pseudo-Class X37 (MDC boxcars) > DSMS on any Class X43 subclass Hear hear! DSMS (an elaboration of SK1b) was only used on 500 of the X29D cars rebuilt in August of 1955. I don't know which part of August these cars were painted in this scheme. > > > Next, some answers to questions posted by Jerry Britton back on July 27, > 2000 (Subj: C&BT X-29b's and X-29d's): > > "While the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it on the > X-29b in '54?" > Yes: > PRR 27901, SK1a, c. June 1954 (Mainline Modeler December 1992) > PRR 28647, SK1a, 7/31/1954 (PRR Color Guide Vol 2) > PRR 30689, SK1a, c. October 1959 (PRR Color Guide Vol 3) Note that these are 3 of the less than a dozen available pix showing SK1a on a repainted boxcar. The 20 X48's, of course, were painted in this scheme new. > > > "Again, while the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it > on > the X-29d in '54?" > I haven't been able to find any Class X29D photos in SK1a; however, with > the > X29D rebuilding program taking place between 1952-1956 and documentation of > Class X29B cars in SK1a, this is probably a safe bet. As always, I'd feel > better with a photo or two. I have no X29D photos in SK1a either -- that doesn't prove they never existed, but if SK1a were used in this rebuilding program, you'd think there'd be some evidence of it. There was (naturally) a marked tendency to take X29D photos in DSMS, but photos of the plain SK1b include #24477 and 26194. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_93.1fe0ee58.2a5fc3bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ben,

On the lettering schemes for Merchandise Service boxcars, let me contribute a few car numbers from my photo index (mostly of published photos).

Should we remind folks that MS1 and MS2 were both adaptations of the CK lettering of their day, and that MS3 is essentially an elaboration of SK1b?

In a message dated 7/11/02 1:12:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: PRR Class X29 rebuilds and other lingering questions
From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:00:42 -0400

Noticed a few more questions on PRR Class X29 rebuilds in the archives that
never got answered - turns out that I answered a couple of Merchandise
Service paint scheme questions on the Steam Era Freight Cars group a few
days ago, so hopefully the info is still useful despite the extreme
tardiness of the answers.


First, a review of the three Merchandise Service paint schemes and the car
classes they went on:

MS1 (1947-1948): Classes X40B (100 cars), X41B (300 cars), X29B (some
cars - total undetermined), X26C (three cars based on ORER entries noting
assignment to Merchandise Service (105126) and LCL (105136, 107324).
PHOTOS WANTED!)  23 1/4" wide aluminum band with 4 1/4" white
edges. Background for keystone monogram toludine red vice freight car
color. "Merchandise Service" letters toludine red with narrow white accent
shadow.



Have indexed in MS1: X29B #28049, #30901, #30998
                                 X40B #37007 (had Steins load retainer)
                                 X41B #118502, #118600, #118728, #118770
                                 X26C none


MS2 (1950): Class X29 (some cars - total undetermined). Banner simplified
to all white. Keystone background and "Merchandise Service" lettering
freight car color.


Have indexed in MS2: X29 #92410, #92419, #101393, #567427, #568169. also probably #505932 with 1950 weigh date.


MS3 (1954): Lettering diagram prepared for Class X40b boxcars in May 1954;
very few cars assigned to LCL service received this scheme. Known photos are
PRR 37080 (Class X40B) and PRR 504087 (Class X29).  White banner
with shadow keystone and freight car color "Merchandise Service).



Only found X29 #504087 (tell me where you found #37080).


Despite what model manufacturers and custom painting services would have you
believe, the following did not exist:

MS1 on Class X29
MS1 on pseudo-Class X37 (Athearn boxcars)
MS1 on any Class X43 subclass
MS1 on Class X48 PS-1s
DSMS on pseudo-Class X37 (MDC boxcars)
DSMS on any Class X43 subclass


Hear hear!

DSMS (an elaboration of SK1b) was only used on 500 of the X29D cars rebuilt in August of 1955.  I don't know which part of August these cars were painted in this scheme.



Next, some answers to questions posted by Jerry Britton back on July 27,
2000 (Subj: C&BT X-29b's and X-29d's):

"While the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it on the
X-29b in '54?"
Yes:
PRR 27901, SK1a, c. June 1954 (Mainline Modeler December 1992)
PRR 28647, SK1a, 7/31/1954 (PRR Color Guide Vol 2)
PRR 30689, SK1a, c. October 1959 (PRR Color Guide Vol 3)


Note that these are 3 of the less than a dozen available pix showing SK1a on a repainted boxcar.  The 20 X48's, of course, were painted in this scheme new.



"Again, while the SK did begin in spring of 1954, did it actually make it on
the X-29d in '54?"
I haven't been able to find any Class X29D photos in SK1a; however, with the
X29D rebuilding program taking place between 1952-1956 and documentation of
Class X29B cars in SK1a, this is probably a safe bet.  As always, I'd feel
better with a photo or two.



I have no X29D photos in SK1a either -- that doesn't prove they never existed, but if SK1a were used in this rebuilding program, you'd think there'd be some evidence of it.  There was (naturally) a marked tendency to take X29D photos in DSMS, but photos of the plain SK1b include #24477 and 26194.



                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_93.1fe0ee58.2a5fc3bf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 02:43:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Bowser unnumbered cars have dry transfers Jeff, list, Bowser includes dry transfers with their unnumbered freight cars (H21s, N5s, N5cs, etc). Place the number in position and burnish with a pencil or burnishing tool to apply to the car. I have bad luck with dry transfers (we refuse to see eye to eye). I've used Champ's decal sets to number some Bowser H21s; other manufacturers should have appropriate decals for HO and N scale. Other folks swear by dry transfers and love them; try the burnishing route and see how it goes for you. Doug --- Jeff Warner wrote, in part: > One, are > they decals or dry transfers or what? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "teabow" Subject: [PRR] X26c photo Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:04:34 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C229D6.F6273520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Url posted for my pennsy boxcar photos didn't load for me. Try this = http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo_PRR = 109760_X26c_steamtown_broadside_Ray Thibaut.jpg&fr=3D Ray Thibaut teabow@dbscorp.net ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C229D6.F6273520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Url posted for my pennsy boxcar = photos didn't=20 load for me. Try this http= ://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo_PRR=20 109760_X26c_steamtown_broadside_Ray Thibaut.jpg&fr=3D
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;    =20 Ray Thibaut
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =       =20 teabow@dbscorp.net
 
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C229D6.F6273520-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] Diaphrams Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 06:44:50 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22999.87EFF3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To List: I am building up some HO Alco P70 and HO Brass P85 Coaches. Does anybody have suggestions where I can get good working diaphragms for both? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C22999.87EFF3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Diaphrams

To List:

I am building up some HO Alco P70 and HO Brass P85 Coaches.
Does anybody have suggestions where I can get good working diaphragms for both?

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C22999.87EFF3E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:29:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering RickTipton@aol.com wrote: (in part) > . . . > > Should we remind folks that MS1 and MS2 were both adaptations of the > CK lettering of their day, and that MS3 is essentially an elaboration > of SK1b? > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ================================================== > > Nahh! I wouldn't remind them ;-) -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:29:02 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering RickTipton@aol.com wrote: (in part) > . . . > > Should we remind folks that MS1 and MS2 were both adaptations of the > CK lettering of their day, and that MS3 is essentially an elaboration > of SK1b? > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ================================================== > > Nahh! I wouldn't remind them ;-) -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:32:01 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser unnumbered cars have dry transfers BTW If your efforts with dry transfers fail and leave you with pieces of text where the numbers should have been, they can be removed from the car with Scotch tape. Then you can start over again or use decals as you prefer. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Doug Kisala wrote: > Jeff, list, > > Bowser includes dry transfers with their unnumbered > freight cars (H21s, N5s, N5cs, etc). Place the number > in position and burnish with a pencil or burnishing > tool to apply to the car. > > I have bad luck with dry transfers (we refuse to see > eye to eye). I've used Champ's decal sets to number > some Bowser H21s; other manufacturers should have > appropriate decals for HO and N scale. > > Other folks swear by dry transfers and love them; try > the burnishing route and see how it goes for you. > > Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Justin Silverman" Subject: [PRR] Start of N5 Restoration Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:18:24 -0400 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C22985.12FFFA30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, I just want to let anyone who is interested in restoring a N5 cabin car k= now that the Ocean Gate Historical Society will begin its restoration of = its N5 on Saturday, 7-13. Anyone living in the Ocean County region of Ne= w Jersey and would like to help, please email me directly. Thank you all for your help! Sincerely, Justin Silverman Co-curator at OGHS oghistorian@msn.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : h= ttp://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C22985.12FFFA30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Everyone,<= /FONT>
 
I just want to let anyone who is interested in restoring a N5 cabin= car know that the Ocean Gate Historical Society will begin its restorati= on of its N5 on Saturday, 7-13.  Anyone living in the Ocean County r= egion of New Jersey and would like to help, please email me directly.
 
Thank you all for your help!
 
Sincerely,
Justin Silverman
Co= -curator at OGHS
Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C22985.12FFFA30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Bronze Gold / Dulux Gold Lettering Change Date Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:25:43 -0500 List, I know this has been covered before so bear with me here. When did PRR motive power start being lettered in the Dulux Gold ? Thanks, Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:10:37 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Diaphrams American Ltd probably makes the best working diaphragm available. I would use their "Streamlined" diaphragms for both, since that model contains the external bottom torsion bars which the PRR used. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Colman Gerald wrote: > > > To List: > > I am building up some HO Alco P70 and HO Brass P85 Coaches. > Does anybody have suggestions where I can get good working diaphragms > for both? > > Thanks in advance, > Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Tank Cars Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 10:32:21 -0400 PRR Tank cars Any info on them, how many prr had, any used in revenue service of just for its own plant use? thank you Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tank Cars Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:56:15 -0400 Greg, In addition to the tankcars used by PRR for Diesel fuel and lube oil, PRR had two tank car built to its specifications in 1966?, PRR 500000 and PRR 500001, both of which were 100 ton cars riding on three axle Buckeye-type trucks.. One was a pressurized car and the other was a non-pressure car. The cars were painted white and tuscan red with reflective red keystones. PRR was vehemnetly opposed to raising the standard capacity from 70 tons (220000# gross weight on rail) to 100 tons (263000# GWOR) on only four axles and offered these cars to the chemicals industry as an alternative. NYC accepted 100 ton four axle cars, forcing PRR do also do so. IMHO, PRR was right, as many roads had derailments all over the place shortly after the introduction of 100 ton cars as the trackage was not designed for that weight. (I called on the chemicals industry in Louisiana for the PRR in 1967) Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 10:32 AM Subject: [PRR] Tank Cars > PRR Tank cars > > Any info on them, how many prr had, any used in revenue service of just for > its own plant use? > > thank you > > Greg V > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:00:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bronze Gold / Dulux Gold Lettering Change Date Pete, I need a clarification of your question...Are you asking about passenger locos? Freight locos, including steamers were lettered in "dulux gold", at least from the 20's on. I only learned this tidbit a couple of years ago...I had blythely assumed that all locos were the same and had gold letters up to the change date (somewhere around 1953 IIRC, which in my world has yet to arrive!)...I'm still trying to figure out if some locos like the P5B or P5A without boilers were lettered yeller or gold prior to '53... Happy Rails Bruce >List, > > I know this has been covered before so bear with me here. When did PRR >motive power start being lettered in the Dulux Gold ? > >Thanks, >Pete Reinhold Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Flo Smith" Subject: [PRR] Signal info needed Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:35:53 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C229EC.19502A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi guys, On PRR mainlines and branch lines, which side of the track were the = signals positioned, and at what distance from the track centres ? TIA and regards, Steve Smith South Africa ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C229EC.19502A60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi guys,
On PRR mainlines and branch lines, which side of = the track=20 were the signals positioned, and at what distance from the track centres = ?
 
TIA and regards,
Steve Smith
South Africa
 
------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C229EC.19502A60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:03:00 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] > PRR Tank cars Greg, Other than the two experimental high capacity tank cars already mentioned, during most of its life the PRR had only company service (not revenue service) tank cars (8k and 10K capacity). See Rich Berg's article in "The Keystone" Vol. 17, No.1 Spring 1984. The original cars were painted freight car red with while markings, subsequently gray with black markings. There is a report of at least one car in the yellow and black scheme, however, I have never seen a color photo of it. They did have 1,308 oil carrying revenue tank cars from a purchase of the Empire Line and Green Line (fast freight lines) completed in October 1877. However, their ownership of these tanks cars was relatively short lived. But that's a another whole story. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] > PRR Tank cars Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:04:07 -0400 Thank you all for your valuable tank car input. My next question is what tank cars (prototype ownership) ran over PRR rails between 1949-1957? Which manufactures make these cars in HO scale? I seen a photo of a string of tank cars being pulled over rockville bridge. I would like to get a dozen or so for my collection. Thanks Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:03 PM To: PRR-Talk Cc: gregv@NetReach.Net Subject: [PRR] > PRR Tank cars Greg, Other than the two experimental high capacity tank cars already mentioned, during most of its life the PRR had only company service (not revenue service) tank cars (8k and 10K capacity). See Rich Berg's article in "The Keystone" Vol. 17, No.1 Spring 1984. The original cars were painted freight car red with while markings, subsequently gray with black markings. There is a report of at least one car in the yellow and black scheme, however, I have never seen a color photo of it. They did have 1,308 oil carrying revenue tank cars from a purchase of the Empire Line and Green Line (fast freight lines) completed in October 1877. However, their ownership of these tanks cars was relatively short lived. But that's a another whole story. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Tank Cars Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:11:45 -0400 The Gross Weight On Rails of 220000 or 263000 lbs. were determined by the axle, wheel and journal size. These standards were part of the standard interchange rules. By the middle 60's the PRR had H43s and G41s as part of their fleet, both at 263000 lbs. gross weight. The PRR did not like the 125 ton car, which had 315000 lbs. gross weight. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [SMTP:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:56 AM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Tank Cars Greg, In addition to the tankcars used by PRR for Diesel fuel and lube oil, PRR had two tank car built to its specifications in 1966?, PRR 500000 and PRR 500001, both of which were 100 ton cars riding on three axle Buckeye-type trucks.. One was a pressurized car and the other was a non-pressure car. The cars were painted white and tuscan red with reflective red keystones. PRR was vehemnetly opposed to raising the standard capacity from 70 tons (220000# gross weight on rail) to 100 tons (263000# GWOR) on only four axles and offered these cars to the chemicals industry as an alternative. NYC accepted 100 ton four axle cars, forcing PRR do also do so. IMHO, PRR was right, as many roads had derailments all over the place shortly after the introduction of 100 ton cars as the trackage was not designed for that weight. (I called on the chemicals industry in Louisiana for the PRR in 1967) Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 10:32 AM Subject: [PRR] Tank Cars > PRR Tank cars > > Any info on them, how many prr had, any used in revenue service of just for > its own plant use? > > thank you > > Greg V > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal info needed Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:19:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C229AF.2FCEE8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Signals were on the right. If I recall, tracks were 13' on center and = catenary poles were 10' from track center. Unless someone else has = anything more definitive, I would work with 10' from track centers. John -----Original Message----- From: Flo Smith To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:00 PM Subject: [PRR] Signal info needed =20 =20 Hi guys, On PRR mainlines and branch lines, which side of the track were the = signals positioned, and at what distance from the track centres ? =20 TIA and regards, Steve Smith South Africa ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C229AF.2FCEE8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Signals were on the right.  If = I recall,=20 tracks were 13' on center and catenary poles were 10' from track = center. =20 Unless someone else has anything more definitive, I would work with 10' = from=20 track centers.
 
John
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Flo Smith <sfsmith@iafrica.com>
To:= =20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Thursday, July 11, 2002 5:00 PM
Subject: [PRR] Signal = info=20 needed

Hi guys,
On PRR mainlines and branch lines, which = side of the=20 track were the signals positioned, and at what distance from the = track=20 centres ?
 
TIA and regards,
Steve Smith
South Africa
 
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C229AF.2FCEE8E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:57:14 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Re: Bowser unnumbered cars have dry transfers If your not into dry transfers, Microscale has a new set of PRR cabin decals for the 1927-1968 period it's #87-1210, w/ white and black lettering and keystones - CK, SK and PK. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Tank cars on PRR rails Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:29:38 -0700 Hi folks; Because I needed so many tank cars for my operating area, I did some research into this, both on a national/regional scale and on a local scale (for my area). I do not have my figures in front of me, and of course they are specific to both year and operating arena, but you can probably get a general idea from the ORER breakdown by owner. For my era, the largest owners were Union Tank Car (UTLX) and General American (GATX), each with somewhat more than 50k tanks each. Shippers (SHPX) was third with about 24k(?) Fourth was National (NATX) with about 17k(?) Then many much smaller fleets, most of them VERY regional. You need to look into where you are operating and who might have been around there (CT1000 for your area?) doing business. There is currently no way you can put together a truly accurate fleet, as there are too few accurate tank car models to model a representative fleet. The ones you can use are the LL P2K Type 21, the IM Type 27, and the RC welded ACF tank. These are all AC&F prototypes, of which the two largest fleets owned very few of, mostly through merger with smaller operators. AC&F's operating arm was SHPX, so these models are all good for SHPX, which unfortunately had the third largest fleet. UTLX had mostly Union-unique cars (they had their own specs for the cars they ran), which you cannot currently buy off the shelf models for. You can modify others to suit UTLX specs, as has been done by some talented modelers. GATX had its own GATC-produced prototypes, which are also not made in plastic. You could also do the same for these, but also with some work. There are some exceedingly rare brass cars of UTLX and GATX heritage, but they are now >$150 in price and well....... There are no plastic NATX cars, either, and NATX cars are also the weirdest, most customer specific cars of the lot. Tank cars are also the most product-specific car on the road in your era. You can model the general, but it is helpful to have more of an idea what you should model given the time and locale. My suggestion would be to buy some of the existing cars listed above and get some "stand-ins" for UTLX and GATX also off that list (a couple of each labeled for those owners), with the hope that someone may make accurate ones in the future for those two. Also, avoid too many of the billboard schemes. There were just not that many of those cars in comparison to the plain lettering-only cars (black with reporting marks only). If you need cars other than general service 103 or 103-W cars, which hauled gasoline, veg oil and other common non-pressurized or caustic products, you are WAY out of luck. No one makes cars of other than 103 types for that era. At least no accurate ones. AHM used to make a 105 type pressurized tank that can be upgraded for special usage, but that is talking another story... If you want more detailed info, contact me off line. Have a good weekend! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. [mailto:gregv@NetReach.Net] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:04 PM To: Al Buchan; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] > PRR Tank cars Thank you all for your valuable tank car input. My next question is what tank cars (prototype ownership) ran over PRR rails between 1949-1957? Which manufactures make these cars in HO scale? I seen a photo of a string of tank cars being pulled over rockville bridge. I would like to get a dozen or so for my collection. Thanks Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:03 PM To: PRR-Talk Cc: gregv@NetReach.Net Subject: [PRR] > PRR Tank cars Greg, Other than the two experimental high capacity tank cars already mentioned, during most of its life the PRR had only company service (not revenue service) tank cars (8k and 10K capacity). See Rich Berg's article in "The Keystone" Vol. 17, No.1 Spring 1984. The original cars were painted freight car red with while markings, subsequently gray with black markings. There is a report of at least one car in the yellow and black scheme, however, I have never seen a color photo of it. They did have 1,308 oil carrying revenue tank cars from a purchase of the Empire Line and Green Line (fast freight lines) completed in October 1877. However, their ownership of these tanks cars was relatively short lived. But that's a another whole story. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tank Cars Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:04:47 -0400 Garry, In addition to the interchange rules, the railroads also publish a maximum allowable weight by line of railroad. For years, this weight was 220,000 lbs. unless published otherwise. The fight was over making 263000 lbs. the standard. I was in the PRR sales department at the time and heard all about it from both sides, Philadelphia and the customers! When I want to work for the AN, we handled many 100 ton cars, but our published maximum weight still was 220,000 and I had a time convincing the EVP to change it. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Spear" To: "'Gregg Mahlkov'" ; "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." ; Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 6:11 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Tank Cars > The Gross Weight On Rails of 220000 or 263000 lbs. were determined by the > axle, wheel and journal size. These standards were part of the standard > interchange rules. By the middle 60's the PRR had H43s and G41s as part of > their fleet, both at 263000 lbs. gross weight. The PRR did not like the > 125 ton car, which had 315000 lbs. gross weight. > > Garry Spear > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregg Mahlkov [SMTP:mahlkov@gtcom.net] > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 11:56 AM > To: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Tank Cars > > Greg, > > In addition to the tankcars used by PRR for Diesel fuel and lube oil, PRR > had two tank car built to its specifications in 1966?, PRR 500000 and PRR > 500001, both of which were 100 ton cars riding on three axle Buckeye-type > trucks.. One was a pressurized car and the other was a non-pressure car. > The > cars were painted white and tuscan red with reflective red keystones. PRR > was vehemnetly opposed to raising the standard capacity from 70 tons > (220000# gross weight on rail) to 100 tons (263000# GWOR) on only four > axles > and offered these cars to the chemicals industry as an alternative. NYC > accepted 100 ton four axle cars, forcing PRR do also do so. IMHO, PRR was > right, as many roads had derailments all over the place shortly after the > introduction of 100 ton cars as the trackage was not designed for that > weight. (I called on the chemicals industry in Louisiana for the PRR in > 1967) > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." > To: > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 10:32 AM > Subject: [PRR] Tank Cars > > > > PRR Tank cars > > > > Any info on them, how many prr had, any used in revenue service of just > for > > its own plant use? > > > > thank you > > > > Greg V > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:40:25 -0400 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Form 109-L -- Proofreader(s) needed! Hi all, Though the magic of OCR and alot of retyping I have a copy of form 109-L, Locomotives-Classification and Description dated 9/1/1956 almost ready to be put online. Before I do, it needs proofreading... I'm looking for a few folks bored enough to tackle a few pages! If you're willing to help out, please let me know! Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:18:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] K4s and antennas Were there any otherwise unmodernized K4s (i.e., slat pilot, etc) that had inductive train phone antennas on the tender? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s and antennas Bob, As you may know, I have many many many many K4 photos. I have none in my collection of a pre war look K4 with Train Phone. Not saying any never existed, just none in my 800+ K4 photo collection. I do remember seeing a photo of a K4 wearing experimental wiring on an early K4 tender. Not sure if this was early radio or something else. It has probably been talked about before here. Exactly when did Induction Train Phone begin? Pre war or post war? If post war that may be the reason no "normal" looking K4 can be spotted with antenna? But then again, not all K4s's were modernized. One of those may have been lucky enough to receive the system. Now being everyone is jimmy on the spot looking for photos, sure enough someone will come up with one!.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:42:08 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Fwd: Re: [PRR] Tank Cars --- Gregg Mahlkov or maybe "Garry Spear" said: > The PRR did not like the > 125 ton car, which had 315000 lbs. gross weight. As I recall, Trains had an article in the mid-70's regarding 125-ton covered hoppers on the UP. The gist of the story: Sometime in the late 60's or early 70's, EPA banned the Solvay process for producing soda ash. UP saw that coming and laid in a supply of 125-ton covered hoppers to haul naturally-occurring soda ash from Green River, Wyo. to glass plants all over the place, but primarily to the East, as there are also soda ash mines in California. After doing that for a time, someone noticed that the east-bound track east of Green River had 2 or 3 times the maintenance costs of the west-bound track. Yet analysis of everything said "there is no difference, same tons, same number of locomotives, same everything" except for the loaded 125-ton cars going east. UP reduced the capacity rating to 100 tons. Just after that it is said the UP received a letter from the Black Mesa and Lake Powell, wondering if UP would be interested in some good used 125-ton coal hoppers. They passed on the deal. Perhaps PRR knew what they were about in disliking 125-ton cars? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Posted-Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:25:15 +0200 (DST) From: Abdul Mohammed Subject: BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP/INVESTMENT Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:25:14 GMT+1 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --=_NextPart_Caramail_0103801026563114_ID Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable URGENT PROPOSAL FOR JOINT INVESTMENT Dear sir, I am well confident of your capability to assist me in a transaction for mutual benefit of both parties, ie (me and you) I am also believing that you will not expose or betray the trust and confidence I am about to establish with you. I have decided to contact you with greatest delight and personal respect. I am Alahaji ABDUL Mohamed. Former Director of National Union of hotels Sierra Leon presently now in Cote d=92Ivoire because of Political Problem in my Country Sierra Leon. During my stay in Office I acquired 16.5 million Dollars, through money being mapped out for hotels Renovation in my Country Sierra Leon. Now due to war, I and the entire management could not be able to utilise the money being mapped out for the project. Now I diverted this money to a nearby Country Cote d=92Ivoire and deposited the money into a BANK here in Abidjan for immediate transfer, for investment. Now the war in my country is over with the help of ECOMOG soldiers, the present goverment of sierra leone has revoked the passport of all officers who served under the former regime and now asked countries to expel such person at the same time freeze their account and confiscate their asset, It is on this note that Iam contacting you, all I needed from you is to furnish me with your bank particulars: 1)Account name 2)Account number 3)Bank address,telephone fax number. Now I would like to use your company account to transfer the money for investment. If my wish to invest in your Company is accepted with you as the manager, please contact me for more clarification. Thanks and God bless. NOTE: YOUR PERCENTAGE IS HIGHLY NEGOCIATED FOR YOUR NOBLE ASSISTANCE. HOPING TO HEAR FROM YOU SOONEST. Alahaji ABDUL MOHAMED (F) Director National Union of hotels Sierra Leon. TEL : 0022507758105 ______________________________________________________ Bo=EEte aux lettres - Caramail - http://www.caramail.com --=_NextPart_Caramail_0103801026563114_ID-- !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 08:50:07 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal info needed Re John Cooper answer to this post. Yes, signals were typically on the right (engineman's side). However, track centers were set as a function of the standard when constructed. Any time track improvement work was accomplished (not just routine maintenance) the centers had to be adjust to meet the then standard dimension. The tangent track standards in CE78J (last edition before merger) were for two main tracks - 14', for a four track system - 14' for inside tracks, 16' for outside track. Between a main and a yard ladder and two parallel ladder tracks - 19.' Siding yard and other side and industrial tracks 13'-6" except in Ohio and Michigan where is was 14'. 14' was also required in DC if practicable. Re Par. 938. When PL signals were between tracks the min. distance was 25'. Re Par 939. On curves, where super elevation was the same on parallel tracks the distance between tracks was increased 1" for each 30 minutes of degree of curve. There was another standard for tracks where superelevation on each track was not the same but its more complicated. Re Par 940. Cat poles and signals as well as bridge piers, abutments, buildings and other permanent structures on main running tracks were at 16'-0" from track center. Note adds that where practicable a lateral clearance of 18'-0" instead of 16'-0" is desired. Ref. PRR drawing 70050-F "Standard Minimum Roadway Clearances" Sep. 1963 - in CE78J. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tank cars on PRR rails Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:33:30 -0500 Tank cars with the GATX, UTL, and SHPX reporting marks are nearly "generic" in the sense that these cars were used by nearly every shipper of liquid materials on the railroads. Even those firms with large fleets of tank cars with their own reporting marks utilized these tank cars during shortages. -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 6:30 PM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.; Al Buchan; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Tank cars on PRR rails Hi folks; Because I needed so many tank cars for my operating area, I did some research into this, both on a national/regional scale and on a local scale (for my area). I do not have my figures in front of me, and of course they are specific to both year and operating arena, but you can probably get a general idea from the ORER breakdown by owner. For my era, the largest owners were Union Tank Car (UTLX) and General American (GATX), each with somewhat more than 50k tanks each. Shippers (SHPX) was third with about 24k(?) Fourth was National (NATX) with about 17k(?) Then many much smaller fleets, most of them VERY regional. You need to look into where you are operating and who might have been around there (CT1000 for your area?) doing business. There is currently no way you can put together a truly accurate fleet, as there are too few accurate tank car models to model a representative fleet. The ones you can use are the LL P2K Type 21, the IM Type 27, and the RC welded ACF tank. These are all AC&F prototypes, of which the two largest fleets owned very few of, mostly through merger with smaller operators. AC&F's operating arm was SHPX, so these models are all good for SHPX, which unfortunately had the third largest fleet. UTLX had mostly Union-unique cars (they had their own specs for the cars they ran), which you cannot currently buy off the shelf models for. You can modify others to suit UTLX specs, as has been done by some talented modelers. GATX had its own GATC-produced prototypes, which are also not made in plastic. You could also do the same for these, but also with some work. There are some exceedingly rare brass cars of UTLX and GATX heritage, but they are now >$150 in price and well....... There are no plastic NATX cars, either, and NATX cars are also the weirdest, most customer specific cars of the lot. Tank cars are also the most product-specific car on the road in your era. You can model the general, but it is helpful to have more of an idea what you should model given the time and locale. My suggestion would be to buy some of the existing cars listed above and get some "stand-ins" for UTLX and GATX also off that list (a couple of each labeled for those owners), with the hope that someone may make accurate ones in the future for those two. Also, avoid too many of the billboard schemes. There were just not that many of those cars in comparison to the plain lettering-only cars (black with reporting marks only). If you need cars other than general service 103 or 103-W cars, which hauled gasoline, veg oil and other common non-pressurized or caustic products, you are WAY out of luck. No one makes cars of other than 103 types for that era. At least no accurate ones. AHM used to make a 105 type pressurized tank that can be upgraded for special usage, but that is talking another story... If you want more detailed info, contact me off line. Have a good weekend! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. [mailto:gregv@NetReach.Net] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 3:04 PM To: Al Buchan; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] > PRR Tank cars Thank you all for your valuable tank car input. My next question is what tank cars (prototype ownership) ran over PRR rails between 1949-1957? Which manufactures make these cars in HO scale? I seen a photo of a string of tank cars being pulled over rockville bridge. I would like to get a dozen or so for my collection. Thanks Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:03 PM To: PRR-Talk Cc: gregv@NetReach.Net Subject: [PRR] > PRR Tank cars Greg, Other than the two experimental high capacity tank cars already mentioned, during most of its life the PRR had only company service (not revenue service) tank cars (8k and 10K capacity). See Rich Berg's article in "The Keystone" Vol. 17, No.1 Spring 1984. The original cars were painted freight car red with while markings, subsequently gray with black markings. There is a report of at least one car in the yellow and black scheme, however, I have never seen a color photo of it. They did have 1,308 oil carrying revenue tank cars from a purchase of the Empire Line and Green Line (fast freight lines) completed in October 1877. However, their ownership of these tanks cars was relatively short lived. But that's a another whole story. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 15:08:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tank cars on PRR rails "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > Tank cars with the GATX, UTL, and SHPX reporting marks are nearly "generic" > in the sense that these cars were used by nearly every shipper of liquid > materials on the railroads. Even those firms with large fleets of tank cars > with their own reporting marks utilized these tank cars during shortages. > General American Transportation eventually renamed themselves GATX after their reporting mark. They had a large facility in this area until they like ao many others shut down. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:05:28 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Tank cars on PRR rails Charles Ring said> GATX had a large facility in this area until they like so many others shut down. Is "this area" that you are referring to Sharon, PA? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO List- does anyone have any comments on the ER Models version of the RF-16 Shark. Is it accurate? How well does it run? Are there any other similar models available? Thank you in advance for any feedback. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:07:26 -0500 Hi! I have the "old" Model Power versions of the Sharks. My understanding of the ER's is that they are better in detail, but not in power. The "really old" versions of Sharks made by Mantua were terrible. Again, ER's are better. That is just hearsay and "In My Humble Opinion", go ahead and buy them. Bear in mind there is no "sound" for Baldwins except for a "Dallee" which is a rather large sound system. Best installed in a dummy loco. Works with DC as well as DCC. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > List- does anyone have any comments on the ER Models version of the RF-16 Shark. Is it accurate? How well does it run? Are there any other similar models available? Thank you in advance for any feedback. < ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:26:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Tank cars on PRR rails Al Buchan wrote: > Charles Ring said> GATX had a large facility in this area until they > like so many others shut down. > > Is "this area" that you are referring to Sharon, PA? Yes, though their plant was across the Ohio border in Masury./Brookfield Township. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:39:48 -0400 Hey you newbies, don't overlook some of the older stuff. I have several of the Hobbytown cast (pewter ?) RF16 locos with all wheel drive. They have fine added detailing, weigh a ton and can pull anything. If you ever come across them at shows etc., consider them for redetailing and repainting. Mine are remotored with those BIG Swiss can motors with the grear reduction heads and modeltronics sound. I am going to consider them for DCC..... one of these days. Lew Matt Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO > Hi! > > I have the "old" Model Power versions of the Sharks. My understanding of > the ER's is that they are better in detail, but not in power. The "really > old" versions of Sharks made by Mantua were terrible. Again, ER's are > better. > > That is just hearsay and "In My Humble Opinion", go ahead and buy them. > Bear in mind there is no "sound" for Baldwins except for a "Dallee" which is > a rather large sound system. Best installed in a dummy loco. Works with DC > as well as DCC. > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist! > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > > > > List- does anyone have any comments on the ER Models version of the RF-16 > Shark. Is it accurate? How well does it run? Are there any other similar > models available? Thank you in advance for any feedback. < > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:43:57 -0400 Hey you newbies, don't overlook some of the older stuff. I have several of the Hobbytown cast (pewter ?) RF16 locos with all wheel drive. They have fine added detailing, weigh a ton and can pull anything. If you ever come across them at shows etc., consider them for redetailing and repainting. Mine are remotored with those BIG Swiss can motors with the grear reduction heads and Modeltronics sound. I am going to consider them for DCC..... one of these days. Lew Matt Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO > Hi! > > I have the "old" Model Power versions of the Sharks. My understanding of > the ER's is that they are better in detail, but not in power. The "really > old" versions of Sharks made by Mantua were terrible. Again, ER's are > better. > > That is just hearsay and "In My Humble Opinion", go ahead and buy them. > Bear in mind there is no "sound" for Baldwins except for a "Dallee" which is > a rather large sound system. Best installed in a dummy loco. Works with DC > as well as DCC. > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist! > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > > > > List- does anyone have any comments on the ER Models version of the RF-16 > Shark. Is it accurate? How well does it run? Are there any other similar > models available? Thank you in advance for any feedback. < > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati Station Book Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:58:12 -0400 Wow, what a birthday present! I went to Barnes and Noble to buy myself a birthday (the big 70) present. I ordered "The Thirteenth Element: The sordid tale of Murder, Fire and Phosphorus" (Chemists have funny tastes in books) While I was there I spotted a book, on the "Special Value" table, named "Cincinnati Union Terminal" The design and construction of an art deco masterpiece, copyright 1999. I never heard of the book. On a business trip to Cincinnati 10 to 15 years age, I visited the station and was shocked to see vendor stalls in the concourse. Yuck! I understand the vendors are now gone. Since the 2004 PRRT&HS Annual Meeting is planned for Cincinnati I anticipated visiting the station again. Although I gave up Lionel stuff when I went to HO scale in 1947, I vaguely recall that there was a model of that station in 0 gauge tinplate. The book is great! Oh, did I mention that the book cost me $3.95. Carl P. Izzo PRRT&HS #832 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 23:31:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cincinnati Station Book --part1_14c.10c531b3.2a624a7f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds as if it one of the many Barnes and Noble reprint editions which they use to populate the "Bargain Books" shelves. Most likely printed in Hong Kong or Singapore? If you look on the copyright page, you might be able to trace back to the original publication. All best wishes. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_14c.10c531b3.2a624a7f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds as if it one of the many Barnes and Noble reprint editions which they use to populate the "Bargain Books" shelves. Most likely printed in Hong Kong or Singapore? If you look on the copyright page, you might be able to trace back
to the original publication.

All best wishes.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_14c.10c531b3.2a624a7f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Betty" Subject: [PRR] test Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:25:36 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C22ACC.F96BED10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable just testing the new email server again. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C22ACC.F96BED10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
just testing the new email server=20 again.
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C22ACC.F96BED10-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:51:33 -0400 Thanks for the assist, Rick! Here are some more data points: Rick Tipton wrote: "Have indexed in MS1: X29B #28049, #30901, #30998 X40B #37007 (had Steins load retainer) X41B #118502, #118600, #118728, #118770 X26C none" Add: X41B #118747 X40B #37051 (Photos in PRR Color Guide Vol 3) "Have indexed in MS2: X29 #92410, #92419, #101393, #567427, #568169. also probably #505932 with 1950 weigh date." PRR 505932, Reweigh "P2 4 50," Col. Chet McCoid photo available from Bob's Photos. Add: X40B #37043 (PRR Color Guide Vol 3) Re: MS3 "Only found X29 #504087 (tell me where you found #37080)." PRR "Pennsy" Magazine, July/August 1955. Car pictured in a line of newly repainted equipment at New Brunswick, NJ, May 10, 1955. Contributed by Andy Hart. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Signal info needed Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:31:27 -0400 Re Al's reply, If you want to view similar source material to what Al refers... An OCR'd copy of CE78J is on my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/documents/CE78(j).pdf It has 70050-C (11/56) on page 101 another version of dwg 70050, rev H (12/66) is also on my web site at: http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=70050-h Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 8:50 AM To: PRR-Talk Cc: johncoop@ix.netcom.com; sfsmith@iafrica.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal info needed Re John Cooper answer to this post. Yes, signals were typically on the right (engineman's side). However, track centers were set as a function of the standard when constructed. Any time track improvement work was accomplished (not just routine maintenance) the centers had to be adjust to meet the then standard dimension. The tangent track standards in CE78J (last edition before merger) were for two main tracks - 14', for a four track system - 14' for inside tracks, 16' for outside track. Between a main and a yard ladder and two parallel ladder tracks - 19.' Siding yard and other side and industrial tracks 13'-6" except in Ohio and Michigan where is was 14'. 14' was also required in DC if practicable. Re Par. 938. When PL signals were between tracks the min. distance was 25'. Re Par 939. On curves, where super elevation was the same on parallel tracks the distance between tracks was increased 1" for each 30 minutes of degree of curve. There was another standard for tracks where superelevation on each track was not the same but its more complicated. Re Par 940. Cat poles and signals as well as bridge piers, abutments, buildings and other permanent structures on main running tracks were at 16'-0" from track center. Note adds that where practicable a lateral clearance of 18'-0" instead of 16'-0" is desired. Ref. PRR drawing 70050-F "Standard Minimum Roadway Clearances" Sep. 1963 - in CE78J. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 08:16:55 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Cincinnati Station Book Carl, Frank Ellison had a model of the CUT on his Delta Lines. He described its construction in both Model Railroader and Model Builder Magazines. Other scratch built models have ben done over the years. The building is also used by the Justice Society (Saturday morning TV cartoons) as their headquarters, the "Hall of Justice." Steve Bartlett Subject: Cincinnati Station Book From: "Carl Izzo" Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:58:12 -0400 ....... I vaguely recall that there was a model of that station in 0 gauge tinplate. The book is great! Oh, did I mention that the book cost me $3.95. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:01:44 -0400 Ben Hom wrote: Add [to MS1 boxcar index]: X41B #118747 X40B #37051 (Photos in PRR Color Guide Vol 3) Also add: X29B #30949, Col Chet McCoid photo available from Bob's Photos Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 00:51:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering Thanks for the assist, Rick! Here are some more data points: Rick Tipton wrote: "Have indexed in MS1: X29B #28049, #30901, #30998 X40B #37007 (had Steins load retainer) X41B #118502, #118600, #118728, #118770 X26C none" Add: X41B #118747 X40B #37051 (Photos in PRR Color Guide Vol 3) "Have indexed in MS2: X29 #92410, #92419, #101393, #567427, #568169. also probably #505932 with 1950 weigh date." PRR 505932, Reweigh "P2 4 50," Col. Chet McCoid photo available from Bob's Photos. Add: X40B #37043 (PRR Color Guide Vol 3) Re: MS3 "Only found X29 #504087 (tell me where you found #37080)." PRR "Pennsy" Magazine, July/August 1955. Car pictured in a line of newly repainted equipment at New Brunswick, NJ, May 10, 1955. Contributed by Andy Hart. Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:01:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Merchandise Service Boxcar lettering Ben Hom wrote: Add [to MS1 boxcar index]: X41B #118747 X40B #37051 (Photos in PRR Color Guide Vol 3) Also add: X29B #30949, Col Chet McCoid photo available from Bob's Photos Ben Hom ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: privatevarnish@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 19:48:39 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Cast Iron Mile Post For Sale PRR cast iron milepost for sale in Chicago area. Consists of tapered cast iron "angle", approx 6 feet long, with triangular "hat" integrally cast on top. Mile number is cast on two outer sides of the angle. Prefer buyer picks up but delivery may be possible. Contact PRIVATEVARNISH@AOL.COM ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Whistle, Lists, I thought the PRR Locomotive Whistles included only 2 kind. The 3 Chime and the "Banshee". Today while at a local train show I saw another version. It had all the tel tel signs of a PRR Whistle. I have a 3 Chime and the one I saw today looked identical except that the length was only 9+ inches long instead of 12 inches long. A Banshe is a single chime and only 5ish" long. I thought maybe it was a cut down/modified standard 3 chime but it wasn't. All looked OK. No Valve was present, just the Whislte part that screws to the valve. Too much money required so I didn't add it to my collection. Does anyone have info of a third type PRR Loco Whistle? Please enlighten me if possible. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: r.r.farquharson@att.net Subject: [PRR] East Broad Top 18 & 29 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 04:27:48 +0000 The Friends of the East Broad Top will be bidding on two original EBT passenger cars on July 20, when the collection at the Sundown & Southern Railroad, Fort Lupton, CO, is sold. Combine 18 is likely the oldest surviving EBT passenger car and is original to the railroad. Baggage-mail 29 is the only survivor of its type. While the price the cars will bring at auction is unknown, we do know that the cost of returning them to Pennsylvania will be substantial. Their restoration will require even more. The Friends of the East Broad launched its effort to "Bring 18 & 29 Home" in early June. While results from our membership have been encouraging, we are now appealing to the greater railfan/preservation community. Please consider a donation in support of this effort. Donations can be sent to FEBT restoration fund treasurer Nancy E. Jacqmin at the following address: Friends of the East Broad Top Restoration Fund Treasurer 513 Shady Avenue, No. 12 Pittsburgh PA 15206-4447 Mark your check (or indicate on the return envelope) that your donation is to be used to "Bring 18 and 29 Home." Contributions to support our effort to acquire these EBT passenger cars will be treated as part of our current fund-raising campaign. Each donor who contributes a donation of $50.00 or more will receive one of our art reproductions of Ted Rose's Mount Union Train. Friends of the East Broad is a 501(c)(3) organization and your donation may qualify for favorable tax treatment. For more details, visit http://www.febt.org/1829.html Required PRR content - EBT interchanged with the PRR at Mount Union, PA (Middle Division). Thank you for your consideration. Bob Farquharson FEBT Vice President PRRT&HS member 2408 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: RE: [PRR] Bronze Gold / Dulux Gold Lettering Change Date Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 07:42:05 -0500 Thanks Btuce, In my world, 1950, the freight locomotives will be lettered in dulux and passenger power in bronze. Two sets of decals to have on hand. Can I assume (bad word) it was this way with the pre 1953 diesel power also. Pete Reinhold Pete, I need a clarification of your question...Are you asking about passenger locos? Freight locos, including steamers were lettered in "dulux gold", at least from the 20's on. I only learned this tidbit a couple of years ago...I had blythely assumed that all locos were the same and had gold letters up to the change date (somewhere around 1953 IIRC, which in my world has yet to arrive!)...I'm still trying to figure out if some locos like the P5B or P5A without boilers were lettered yeller or gold prior to '53... Happy Rails Bruce >List, > > I know this has been covered before so bear with me here. When did PRR >motive power start being lettered in the Dulux Gold ? > >Thanks, >Pete Reinhold Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] L1s picture in Wall Street Journal Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 13:58:33 +0000 The 7/15/02 edition of the Wall Street Journal has a special section today regarding E commerce. On the inside of the last page is an article on how emerging technologies have changed business and one of the technologies listed is railroads. In the center of the page is a collage of items that changed business including a 3/4 view of an L1s that is quite well done. the items are radiating like spokes of a wheel and the L1 is at 3 O'clock. It cuts off the cab so I couldn't find a number but it is clearly a PRR L1s belpaire boiler and all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Cincinnati Station Book Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 08:03:51 -0500 There are at least two CUT books available. One is soft cover, and is a reprint of the book published at the time the station was opened. It is (was) available at the book store located in one of the shops in the Cincinnati Union Terminal. A second book, hard cover, has also been published detailing the construction and workings of the station. CUT had a lot of unique features. All the clocks in the terminal were mechanically connected so that they all showed the exactly the same time. When I last visited the terminal, the board of directors room was nearly intact with its ART Deco furniture - it looked like a movie set from the 30s. Other rooms in the terminal have been restored, although the concourse over the tracks is gone. A panoramic view is available from the CUT control tower, which I expect will be opened during the convention. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Bartlett [mailto:tower.op@verizon.net] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:17 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Cincinnati Station Book Carl, Frank Ellison had a model of the CUT on his Delta Lines. He described its construction in both Model Railroader and Model Builder Magazines. Other scratch built models have ben done over the years. The building is also used by the Justice Society (Saturday morning TV cartoons) as their headquarters, the "Hall of Justice." Steve Bartlett Subject: Cincinnati Station Book From: "Carl Izzo" Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:58:12 -0400 ....... I vaguely recall that there was a model of that station in 0 gauge tinplate. The book is great! Oh, did I mention that the book cost me $3.95. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Cincinnati Station Book Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 15:05:38 +0000 Before they destroyed it they moved all the frescos that were on the upper walls of the waiting room to the airport. If you ever go through their airport they line the hallways to the gates. I was fortunate enough to live in the area before Amtrak and have some shots of PRR E7's with L&N E7's at the station waiting for their assignments. Norm Bell > There are at least two CUT books available. One is soft cover, and is a > reprint of the book published at the time the station was opened. It is > (was) available at the book store located in one of the shops in the > Cincinnati Union Terminal. A second book, hard cover, has also been > published detailing the construction and workings of the station. > > CUT had a lot of unique features. All the clocks in the terminal were > mechanically connected so that they all showed the exactly the same time. > When I last visited the terminal, the board of directors room was nearly > intact with its ART Deco furniture - it looked like a movie set from the > 30s. Other rooms in the terminal have been restored, although the concourse > over the tracks is gone. A panoramic view is available from the CUT control > tower, which I expect will be opened during the convention. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Bartlett [mailto:tower.op@verizon.net] > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 7:17 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Re: Cincinnati Station Book > > > Carl, > Frank Ellison had a model of the CUT on his Delta Lines. He described > its construction in both Model Railroader and Model Builder Magazines. > > Other scratch built models have ben done over the years. > > The building is also used by the Justice Society (Saturday morning TV > cartoons) as their headquarters, the "Hall of Justice." > > Steve Bartlett > > Subject: Cincinnati Station Book > From: "Carl Izzo" > Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 19:58:12 -0400 > > ....... I vaguely > recall that there was a model of that station in 0 gauge tinplate. > > The book is great! Oh, did I mention that the book cost me $3.95. > > Carl P. Izzo > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:16:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] J1a 6480 Hello list, A few months back (when I only had email at work) someone was asking about the assignments of J1a 6480. Here they are from 1949-56, courtesy of MP229s from that era. J1a 6480 1949-56 7/1/49: Southwestern Division: St Louis Division 5/1/50: Southwestern Division: St. Louis Division 6/1/51: Western Region: Southwestern Division 3/1/52: Western Region: Southwestern Division 4/1/53: Western Region: Southwestern Division 3/1/54: Western Region: Southwestern Division 4/1/55: Western Region: Southwestern Division 3/1/56: Buckeye Region Enjoy! Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:32:14 -0700 (PDT) From: george carey Subject: [PRR] God Bless Newspapers For those of you unsure of how steam locomotives work, The Wall Street Journal has come to your rescue. Check out the E-Commerce Section of the July 15th WSJ. On Page R13 is a picture of an L1s Mikado with exhaust pouring out of the sandbox -- if only I had known how they really work. Dave Carey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Whistle, Lists, I thought the PRR Locomotive Whistles included only 2 kind. The 3 Chime and the "Banshee". Today while at a local train show I saw another version. It had all the tel tel signs of a PRR Whistle. I have a 3 Chime and the one I saw today looked identical except that the length was only 9+ inches long instead of 12 inches long. A Banshe is a single chime and only 5ish" long. I thought maybe it was a cut down/modified standard 3 chime but it wasn't. All looked OK. No Valve was present, just the Whislte part that screws to the valve. Too much money required so I didn't add it to my collection. Does anyone have info of a third type PRR Loco Whistle? Please enlighten me if possible. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:23:11 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] God Bless Newspapers could anybody scan this? this looks like archive material to me! - godfrey hall george carey wrote: > For those of you unsure of how steam locomotives work, > The Wall Street Journal has come to your rescue. Check > out the E-Commerce Section of the July 15th WSJ. On > Page R13 is a picture of an L1s Mikado with exhaust > pouring out of the sandbox -- if only I had known how > they really work. > > Dave Carey > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes > http://autos.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:04:56 -0400 In my opinion the ER Shark and the Model Power version are identical, at least by standards of detailing. I can't comment on their comparable running qualities but I've look-ed at them pretty closely side by side and they look much the same. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: "PennsyNut" To: "Chris Sawicki" Cc: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Modeling" Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO > Hi! > > I have the "old" Model Power versions of the Sharks. My understanding of > the ER's is that they are better in detail, but not in power. The "really > old" versions of Sharks made by Mantua were terrible. Again, ER's are > better. > > That is just hearsay and "In My Humble Opinion", go ahead and buy them. > Bear in mind there is no "sound" for Baldwins except for a "Dallee" which is > a rather large sound system. Best installed in a dummy loco. Works with DC > as well as DCC. > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist! > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > > > > List- does anyone have any comments on the ER Models version of the RF-16 > Shark. Is it accurate? How well does it run? Are there any other similar > models available? Thank you in advance for any feedback. < > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:10:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Kris Kollar wrote: > In my opinion the ER Shark and the Model Power version are identical, at > least by standards of detailing. I can't comment on their comparable > running qualities but I've look-ed at them pretty closely side by side and > they look much the same. Agree. The later runs of the Model Power sharks seem to have been a little less "crisp" than the ER or the earlier Model Power sharks, but I can't quantify that. I treat them as interchangeable, also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:41:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO In a message dated 7/15/02 11:26:05 PM Central Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << The later runs of the Model Power sharks seem to have been a little less "crisp" than the ER or the earlier Model Power sharks, but I can't quantify that. I treat them as interchangeable, also. >> Your statement may be why the ER looks better to me by a very small margin---either the tooling is crisper (less worn out?) or the paint is not as thick. In any case, the tradeoff is in operation in two areas. The Model Power with the O-scale can motor is incredibly smooth and powerful for a product which was marketed through dime stores. The E-R motor is acceptable, perhaps less powerful, but has a socket for a DCC decoder. The Model Power units have a cartoonish wheel profile, looking to be a flat stamped disk. The E-R aren't exactly P:87 but are better. On a powered Model Power B-unit I picked up, I have bought the NWSL wheelset which is super! A long term budget item to replace the A unit wheelsets. To really look right either unit needs to have the paint stripped and new paint and decals applied . The E-R striping and lettering is not bad, but the base color is horrible. In the case of the E-R, before stripping I will probably try and darken it with weathering to see if I can get away with the lazy man's approach. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 02:27:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Hey Yuze Guys! I am going to run this up the flag pole one more time before I sink my pick. I realize that I have ask this once before but, I want to make darn sure we are on the same page. Al Buchan and I were passing messages back and forth and here is what we would both like to know... So please chime in and reply to both of us please, and preferably offline. I am going to go to Athearn about the Genesis F-units one more time and I would like to know which one everyone would like to see and here is a brief run down on each phase the PRR had: F-3 phase 2 early High Fans, dynamic brake grills, Chicken wire over the air intakes on the upper carbody as well as between the portholes. (total of 6 A-units possible) F-3 phase 2 late Low fans, dido on the dynamics as above, Chicken wire is same as above. F-3 phase 3 low fans, dynamic brake grills, chicken wire only in the upper carbody and now louvers on the sides. F-3 phase 4 low fans standard, dynamic brake grills, Stainless grills. F-5 same as above but all were helpers. F-7 phase 1a low fans dynamic brake fans stanless grills (Currently already in the market from Athearn) from this point above all units had the EMD 4 numeral streamlined number board ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ F-7 phase 1b dynamic brake fan, 45º number boards, stainless grill; this is the most common variation or as they say "Standard Athearn (globe) unit" F-7 phase 2 dynamic brake fan, 45º number boards, stainless steel grills, absence of a stainless kick plate. F-7 phase 2 "FARR" variation same as above with FARR vertical louvers. I have picked out the most common easy spotting features. NO, ATHEARN WILL NOT DO THE ATENNA MAST or NOSE LIFT LUGS! MY personal favorite is the early F-7 phase 2's which were the first to appear on the PRR without stainless kick plates on the door. WE WANT FEED BACK and I will talk with Athearn so we can get these into production. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 02:39:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Guys, I have a set of two powered A units and a dummy B-unit and I have pulled 98 cars with just the two powered original Model Powers units, no constant light or DCC, or fly wheels. Never as much as a hum from them and smooooth! BTW they might have pulled more but I ran out of cars, and best cars had KADEE wheel sets and the rest well they were just whatever, nothing special. I did them in DGLE with BUFF 5-stripes and a Circle Keystone and utilized both lettering diagrams. I had to research long and hard to find a set of number to make the match. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 06:48:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO --part1_32.29df9662.2a65540b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an ER Sharknose and a FP7. They both run great, but they lack a real slow speed. They seem geared for speed :) Otherwise I love them, but they seem pricey for the level of detail the shell has. Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_32.29df9662.2a65540b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an ER Sharknose and a FP7. They both run great, but they lack a real slow speed. They seem geared for speed :) Otherwise I love them, but they seem pricey for the level of detail the shell has.

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_32.29df9662.2a65540b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:26:26 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C22C9A.18843B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike: I too have a set of ER sharks. Initially, I was quite disappointed with = the slow speed performance of the engines until I installed Lenz back = EMF decoders. Now they have fantastic slow speed control. =20 Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message -----=20 From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO I have an ER Sharknose and a FP7. They both run great, but they lack a = real slow speed. They seem geared for speed :) Otherwise I love them, = but they seem pricey for the level of detail the shell has.=20 Mike Schock=20 List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group=20 Sandusky, Ohio=20 Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C22C9A.18843B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike:
 
I too have a set of ER sharks.  = Initially, I=20 was quite disappointed with the slow speed performance of = the=20 engines until I installed Lenz back EMF decoders.  Now they have = fantastic=20 slow speed control. 
 
Larry Reynolds
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 USMCnewdog25431@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 = 6:48=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin = RF-16 in=20 HO

I have an ER Sharknose and a FP7. They both run = great, but=20 they lack a real slow speed. They seem geared for speed :) Otherwise I = love=20 them, but they seem pricey for the level of detail the shell has.=20

Mike Schock=20
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio=20
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C22C9A.18843B20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 08:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Greg, My Vote: F3 Phase 3 or F5. Neither were ever offered before, correct? (except maybe for high liners?) That would be a good reason to go with one of those versions. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:54:49 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Even though some of the variations may have been offered by others before, they have never been offered as such fine models and therefore, I believe that issue should not necessarily cloud our choice. I haven't specifically decided yet. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:53:01 -0500 Hi! Some additional input. "The Model Power with the O-scale can motor is incredibly smooth and powerful for a product which was marketed through dime stores." Your comments about the "O-scale motor" is what I was referring to - the old Model Power run and pull very well. "To really look right either unit needs to have the paint stripped and new paint and decals applied." And this is true of each and every model produced by our wonderful manufacturers, PERIOD! Isn't this our favorite gripe? "In the case of the E-R, before stripping I will probably try and darken it with weathering to see if I can get away with the lazy man's approach." One can always hope and try. In fact, there was one time I was able to get away with that. It was a steam engine where I was able to repaint without relettering. It takes a very steady hand. Anyone ever try hand lettering? Even hand numbering is possible. Good Luck! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 15:33:19 +0000 Greg: Thank you for giving us the opportunity in influencing upcoming versions of the Genesis F-units. I, like you, would like to see F-7, Phase 2 units be produced. However, was that version the most common on the PRR? As a general question, which of all of the versions that you mentioned were the most common (or had the most produced). Perhaps that should influence the final choice. Once again, thank you for your past and current work on this project. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com >To: abbuchan1@comcast.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com >CC: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units >Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 02:27:23 EDT > >Hey Yuze Guys! > >I am going to run this up the flag pole one more time before I sink my >pick. >I realize that I have ask this once before but, I want to make darn sure we >are on the same page. > >Al Buchan and I were passing messages back and forth and here is what we >would both like to know... So please chime in and reply to both of us >please, >and preferably offline. > >I am going to go to Athearn about the Genesis F-units one more time and I >would like to know which one everyone would like to see and here is a brief >run down on each phase the PRR had: > >F-3 phase 2 early High Fans, dynamic brake grills, Chicken wire over the >air >intakes on the upper carbody as well as between the portholes. (total of 6 >A-units possible) > >F-3 phase 2 late Low fans, dido on the dynamics as above, Chicken wire is >same as above. > >F-3 phase 3 low fans, dynamic brake grills, chicken wire only in the upper >carbody and now louvers on the sides. > >F-3 phase 4 low fans standard, dynamic brake grills, Stainless grills. > >F-5 same as above but all were helpers. > >F-7 phase 1a low fans dynamic brake fans stanless grills (Currently >already >in the market from Athearn) > >from this point above all units had the EMD 4 numeral streamlined number >board >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------ > >F-7 phase 1b dynamic brake fan, 45º number boards, stainless grill; this is >the most common variation or as they say "Standard Athearn (globe) unit" > >F-7 phase 2 dynamic brake fan, 45º number boards, stainless steel grills, >absence of a stainless kick plate. > >F-7 phase 2 "FARR" variation same as above with FARR vertical louvers. > >I have picked out the most common easy spotting features. NO, ATHEARN WILL >NOT DO THE ATENNA MAST or NOSE LIFT LUGS! > >MY personal favorite is the early F-7 phase 2's which were the first to >appear on the PRR without stainless kick plates on the door. > >WE WANT FEED BACK and I will talk with Athearn so we can get these into >production. > >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:25:54 -0700 Hi guys, If we are talking about the final PRR F7 units that had vertically-punched louvers in the side panels and vertical louvers in the stainless steel "grilles", I am not sure most folks would call them Phase 2, as I think most folks also want the 48" dynamic fan to call it Phase 2. I believe that the final PRR units did not have this feature, but retained a 36" dynamic fan. I have heard this final PRR phase referred to as Phase 1c or something like that. Does this strike a chord, or am I way off base? I believe that only the final group of F-7s on the PRR had the vertical louver feature, and that these guys also had extended range fuel tanks, so they also had no skirts right from the factory. There were also not many of these guys, perhaps about a dozen? Also, I think the final set of F7b's does not exactly match these guys, as they were made for back up passenger service and had steam generators for use with the FP-7's. Again, I am trying to work from memory, so I may be wrong. There were, however, many more of the (I think called by most...Phase 1b?) models with the horizontal louvers and grillework, square corner doors and windows, round reardoor porthole, pointed overhang (later modified for less depth,) true F7 cut levers, triple horn and smaller tank with skirts from the factory. These also had the larger angled numberboards, unlike the early Phase 1a's PRR got that were divided up between helper and road service models and had the small numberboard and F3 cut levers and single horn. I think I got most of this correct, but don't kill me if I didn't! There were lots of the Phase 1b's in the high 9600 series, and high 9700/low 9800 series, both A and B. There are, however, on each of these orders, very specific spotting differences, which should be matched since these Athearn units appear to be the only ones coming RTR that are attempting to hit all the correct details. And happily have to date! I would STRONGLY urge you to contact Jack Consoli for verification of the details on any of these F3 or F7 orders. He has done simply stunning research on these guys. Much better than my lame attempts. I would also like to thank you all in advance for even asking these questions. Athearn gets great praise for asking the questions, and attempting to do something about it, which is not something that can be said for the majority of manufacturers. Have an excellent day! Elden If the question remains that folks would like the most commonly produced model of F3 or F7, we should get those number series together. I would be glad to help. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 09:41:01 -0700 Hi guys, If you wouldn't mind, may I ask a few questions about these models? Did the ER model correct the slots in the sidesills? Did the ER model correct the door inset issue? Are there any real changes to the shell from the MP model? Is it only my impression that the nose appears too narrow for the RF-16 prototype? Is this taper actually more correct for the longer-nosed DR 4-4-1500's? Is the nose door more correct for the RF-16 or RF-15/DR 4-4-1500? Has anyone done the sandbox doors on top of the pilot? How did you do them? Has anyone added rear end detail? Has anyone corrected the shell of the B-unit to add the screened intake as on the "A"? Did the post-9707 RF-16's differ at ALL from the 2000 series? How about those late 9500's? What did you do as far as the NWSL wheelsets? Was this done to an ER or MP model? YES, those silver disks they called wheelsets on the MP have flanges that will bottom out on anything larger than code 100 (as well as looking terrible) and I would like to change them out. However, I recently saw a thread that someone had simply swapped chassis with an Atlas RS3. That would seem to solve the chassis problem. Did this work well? Are they the same wheelbase? How was that done? I am aware that they both have AAR B sideframes, but are the bearing caps and details close enough? Forgive me if I am asking questions answered earlier, as I do not have a copy of Kris' article at hand. Thanks for any input you can provide. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Kris Kollar [mailto:kkollar@cplx.net] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 8:05 PM To: PennsyNut; Chris Sawicki Cc: PRR Talk; PRR Modeling Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO In my opinion the ER Shark and the Model Power version are identical, at least by standards of detailing. I can't comment on their comparable running qualities but I've look-ed at them pretty closely side by side and they look much the same. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: "PennsyNut" To: "Chris Sawicki" Cc: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Modeling" Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO > Hi! > > I have the "old" Model Power versions of the Sharks. My understanding of > the ER's is that they are better in detail, but not in power. The "really > old" versions of Sharks made by Mantua were terrible. Again, ER's are > better. > > That is just hearsay and "In My Humble Opinion", go ahead and buy them. > Bear in mind there is no "sound" for Baldwins except for a "Dallee" which is > a rather large sound system. Best installed in a dummy loco. Works with DC > as well as DCC. > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist! > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > > > > List- does anyone have any comments on the ER Models version of the RF-16 > Shark. Is it accurate? How well does it run? Are there any other similar > models available? Thank you in advance for any feedback. < > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:18:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > Hi guys, > If you wouldn't mind, may I ask a few questions about these models? > Did the ER model correct the slots in the sidesills? Can't remember. > Did the ER model correct the door inset issue? No. > Are there any real changes to the shell from the MP model? Not really, if my recollection is correct. > Is it only my impression that the nose appears too narrow for the RF-16 > prototype? Is this taper actually more correct for the longer-nosed DR > 4-4-1500's? It looks fine to me, but I haven't measured. I also have never seen the prototype;-) > Has anyone added rear end detail? Does anyone have decent pictures of it? I've seen, I think, 2 *ever* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:48:28 -0400 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] K4s and antennas >Gary, I don't know if you got an answer on this yet. But I'm almost sure the Train Phones went into service around 1946-47. I gave Rob Rob Schoenberg a copy of a couple of Railway Age articles on the Train Phones and I think they were from that time frame. Rob, might you get a chance to put these articles on your website? Tom Hayden >Subject: Re: [PRR] K4s and antennas >From: "Gary Mittner" >Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:56:44 -0400 (EDT) > >Bob, > > > It has probably been talked about before here. Exactly when did >Induction Train Phone begin? Pre war or post war? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:02:09 -0700 Derrick, You are right, there are very few pics of the rear end. There is a photo I have referred to that is at the beginning of the diesel section in Pennsy Power 2 of the turntable at Conway with some Sharks. Also, one in "Rails to Pittsburgh". Plus the new Withers book, maybe. I think there is an extended walkway platform that has a deep notch in the base to clear the coupler, which appears to be supported by two long rods with rounded turnbuckles. Also a backup light housing over the door with a pipe conduit. And of course the remains (after they were removed) of the diaphragm housing base, kind of like the ones on the FAs. I can't tell where the jumper is located for the MU. It does not appear to be over the door frame like on the Fs. Given that the Sharks were air-activated, one would expect that it'd be a hose of some kind, but the arrangement does not appear to be like on the Baldwin roadswitchers and switchers with the large hoses/cables under the walkway step. No detail on this exists in my Shark operator's manual. Oh well. It may be only my imagination playing tricks on me, but I think the Sharks were much "fatter" than the MP/ER shell appears. I mean the carbody looks wider in photos than the model appears. I think the reason that the nose looks narrow on some is that the DR 4-4-1500 had a longer nose, perhaps with less taper, than the RF-16s. They (DR 4-4-1500's in Shark bodies) also appear to have smaller numberboards like the DR 6-6-2000's, or again, am I imagining this? Have a good one! Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Motel Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 14:26:36 -0400 List- Early June I sparked talk about the Red Caboose Motel not returning monies charged on my credit card. I am presently filing a suit against them to return not only the first evening charge when I did not stay there, but for the recent second charge my VISA received again on July 13th, 2002. I need the name of the newspaper that did a story on the Red Caboose motel being shut down for nitrate in their water system and neglecting to comply with EPA regulations and the fine they received. They seem to keep charging me for no service. Please contact me offlist. Thank you Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. gregv@netreach.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 16:42:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO --part1_ea.2aa2cdee.2a65df2f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that is great news Larry! I will be going DCC this fall, so I cant wait! Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_ea.2aa2cdee.2a65df2f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that is great news Larry! I will be going DCC this fall, so I cant wait!

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_ea.2aa2cdee.2a65df2f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red Caboose Motel Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:43:40 -0400 Even if you had stayed there, you would have been charged for no service! :-) Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2002 2:26 PM Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Motel > List- > > Early June I sparked talk about the Red Caboose Motel not returning monies > charged on my credit card. I am presently filing a suit against them to > return not only the first evening charge when I did not stay there, but for > the recent second charge my VISA received again on July 13th, 2002. I need > the name of the newspaper that did a story on the Red Caboose motel being > shut down for nitrate in their water system and neglecting to comply with > EPA regulations and the fine they received. They seem to keep charging me > for no service. > > Please contact me offlist. > > Thank you > > Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. > gregv@netreach.net > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:46:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units --part1_142.118dc470.2a660a3d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't forget to mention the passenger-style pilots. They're one of the most frequent errors on PRR-painted F units I've seen. --part1_142.118dc470.2a660a3d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't forget to mention the passenger-style pilots.  They're one of the most frequent errors on PRR-painted F units I've seen. --part1_142.118dc470.2a660a3d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:36:56 -0500 Hi Elden--Answers to a couple of your questions-- > > Has anyone done the sandbox doors on top of the pilot? How did you do > them? > Bits of styrene can be fashioned to resemble these sandbox doors. > > However, I recently > saw a thread that someone had simply swapped chassis with an Atlas RS3. > That would seem to solve the chassis problem. Did this work well? Are they > the same wheelbase? How was that done? I am aware that they both have AAR > B sideframes, but are the bearing caps and details close enough? > I did this, and the result was fantastic. The wheelbase is not identical, but very close. The difference is not noticeable on the model. I attached styene stock inside the shell then used screws thru the Atlas/Kato frame. That left plenty of room for lots of weight. The bearing caps and other truck details of the Atlas/Kato model are improvements over the Model Power details; additional details can be added as desired. This was done in the days before DCC and, as you can imagine, resulted in an exceptionally smooth running Shark. The same technique can be used to repower the P2K FA2, but that is off topic.... And Kato RS2 trucks and motor can be installed in the P2K FA1, but that is also off topic.... Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] For Sale: HO Model Power Shark Powered Chassis Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:57:50 -0500 Since it has been a current thread, I rummaged around and found a complete HO Model Power powered chassis, including the weight. Just tested it and it runs as new, even the headlight works. $20 and I will pay the shipping in the USA. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:20:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin RF-16 in HO On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Steve Hoxie wrote: > > However, I recently > > saw a thread that someone had simply swapped chassis with an Atlas RS3. > > That would seem to solve the chassis problem. Did this work well? Are > they > > the same wheelbase? How was that done? I am aware that they both have > AAR > > B sideframes, but are the bearing caps and details close enough? > > > I did this, and the result was fantastic. The wheelbase is not identical, > but very close. The difference is not noticeable on the model. I attached 6 prototype inches difference (9'4" for the GE-motored trucks on the Alcos, 9'10" for the Westinghouse-motored Baldwins). I think the difference is noticeable. Note the leaf spring, for instance. Of course, it may not be noticeable to you, in which case, have fun with it. The Atlas chassis is pretty nice. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 22:09:58 -0500 Hi Elden--F-7's this time. From PDY1 and Paul Withers Vol. 6, the last PRR F-7's, with the vertical Farr grills and vertical louvers, were A's 9872-9879 and B's 9872-9878 (even only). Photos show both A's and B's equipped with extended range (wider) tanks. The as-delivered configuration did include skirts which had cutouts to accommodate the wider tanks. These B's should not be confused with the B's, 9832-9858 (even only) delivered with the FP-7's. These had the vertical grills and louvers but not the extended range tanks. They also had steam generators as you pointed out. According to these two sources, PRR classed them as EFP-15 like the FP-7 A units even though EMD called them F-7's. I have responded with my preference to Greg Martin, and it will be great to have another PRR version, but what we really need is a good FP-7. With 40 A's I believe that is more identical engines than any one of the F-3 or F-7 phases. That makes it a pretty big hole in my model roster. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 01:27:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Elden and all, Let's not try to use the dynamic brakes to identify any phase as dynamics were options and just as the Phase 2's could be delivered with 48" diameter fans and usually were our men at the PRR used the 36" option. Always try to look at carbody features that were fundamentally common to all roads units like the kick plate on the door, square door corners vs. round door corners. The rear pointed over hang on the back of the units were never on the GMD units (EMD of Canada) so it is not an absolute feature and the grill work doesn't work as it could be swapped around or deleted. The 1500 gallon fuel tank was an option that not many roads decided to use, PRR and SP come to mind, and yes it forced the shirt off the units. I was really just trying to get a run down on what modelers want in a nut shell not start a tread on F-unit phases again. 3^) So Elden choose your poison. And a good source for F unit info is the Withers Publication, excellent source. Thanks and again I just want to know what you guys want and at this point it is leaning towards the F-3 phase 2's and then the F-3 phase 3's. Al would you ever have believed this? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:10:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units bobflores99@yahoo.com writes: << I guess my thoughts are that Stewart did a nice job with the F-3's, correct me if I am wrong, but that might leave F7's. ?? >> Bob and all, For us Pennsy guys about all the Stewart F units are good for is the drive and a long conversion job. Wrong pilots, wrong, number boards on the F-3's, just a lot of work if you have the time or own them like me. 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:36:37 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Class X29 Lettering codes -- where standards break down In a message dated 7/5/02 11:57:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ben Horn < b.hom@worldnet.att.net> writes: > Hi Bill, > > Apologies for the delay in getting this to you - it took me a lot longer > than I thought to go through all of my references and photo collection, but > here's the database as promised. I've added worksheets with photo > information and a bibliography. Some notes on the database: > > > 3. Paint schemes are in accordance with Brady McGuire's designation with > the following additions: > SK2c: Same as SK2b (Shadow Keystone, billboard "Pennsylvania", plain-style > "PRR" and numerals) without the billboard "Pennsylvania". > MOW: Car in MOW service. > NK5b: SK1b scheme without the Shadow Keystone as applied to MOW equipment. > "-S": Indicates "Square S" in upper left hand corner of car side. Ben, Bill, and friends, Brady McGuire's 10 basic lettering schemes (as described in his 1988 article and my 2002 one) cover the bulk of cases on revenue freight cars very well. On the other hand, I've found plenty of photos where these standard codes don't tell the whole story. That this is particularly true in work equipment, it also crops up with passenger-lettered cars, and it can even be seen in revenue freight. Reasons/reasoning is as follows: 1. MOW equipment (which Al Buchan and others claim the PRR called work equipment) - was painted in Renovo and other places, and was not bound by standard "Lettering Arrangement Drawings". Remember that these cars do not have to conform to interchange standards, and may have door and window arrangements not found on the revenue equipment they're built from. Thus, they commonly omit much data found on interchange cars, arrange stencil elements in different places on the carbody, mix stencil elements from different eras, and often leave off the monogram or the PENNSYLVANIA name. Sometimes their lettering doesn't look like standard lettering phases at all. 2. Express boxcars (especially X29's) - these are freight cars equipped to travel in passenger service. Most were lettered consistently, but from observation, there were SK2b cars that economized by omitting the big PENNSYLVANIA above the reporting marks. And on some of these cars, it's tough to tell from a photo whether the keystone was once shadowed or not. 3. Revenue cars - especially after some time has passed, strange things can happen to a standard revenue paint scheme. When a car is partially re-lettere d to make the reporting marks legible, some of the older lettering scheme's elements may remain, providing a seemingly "hybrid" scheme. Sometimes only enough lettering is restored so the car number can be read. And (offroad), a car with deteriorated lettering may receive some oddball typeface known only at the faraway shop that did the re-mark. I'm going to beg for good judgement in how we interpret these schemes. A. My first plea is for a recognition that not all cars are in "standard" paint, and we will see paint schemes not conforming to a Lettering Arrangement Drawing. As a suggestion, I suggest we try to decide what standard scheme the odd scheme is based on, and code from it. For example, if an MoW car carries the PENNSYLVANIA and road number of PK, it's still basically that PK stencil set even if the plain (unshaded) keystone we expect is missing. Personally, I'm presently coding such a scheme as PKz, where PK tells me what standard lettering scheme was used, and z tells me the monogram is missing. For those X29 BX's in the Color Guide Volume 3 cited where the keystone is SK and reporting marks lettering is consistent with SK2b, I'm personally coding this IN MY OWN FILES as SK2bv, showing there is some variance from standard other than the absence of a monogram. B. Thus, I gently suggest that a letter code of SK2c is not what we want to do. What we really need is something that tells us this is recognizably SK2b, but something is off - like SK2bv (Shaded Keystone, 7" PRR and number, in "transition" type face, but with a variance). C. Likewise, I'd like to suggest that resorting to NK5 because a keystone is missing is undesirable. "NK" sets up an expectation that we are looking at pre-1930 lettering, characteristic of the railroad before a monogram was adopted for freight car markings. Instead, PKz tells us this is the standard 1961-68 lettering scheme, but with the monogram omitted. D. I agree with Ben that we need to recognize when a lettering scheme has been used on work equipment, and it happens I started using suffixes for this just as he did. Of course, I've already been beat up over terming these cars Maintenance of Way equipment, since that's apparently not the preferred PRR company terminology, so I didn't use the letters MoW (at least for long). Besides, using an MoW suffix doesn't tell us which color scheme the work equipment is in -- despite the well-known dates when freight car color gave way to gray, and gray gave way to chrome yellow, it's possible to find, say, PK lettering on all three. So I started classifying the not-quite-standard work equipment as follows: a. gray - like NK4gray b. yellow - like PKyello, except black roofed cars are PKyellk and silver roof cars are PKyells c. freight car color - like PKFCC (for stores department cars, those that also have the yellow 'S', I do see merit in using PK-S as Ben did, or maybe PKFCC-S). E. Once in a while, we will find a picture that conforms to no lettering standard. My practice here is to code simply with the letter 'V', indicating that the photo varies from all standard lettering schemes. Likewise, if the lettering is so obscured as to defy categorization, (or if not enough of the car is visible to tell) I just use the letter 'Z', meaning the correct code will remain missing. ******************************************** An admission: since I'm dealing with a database (MS Access), I have the option of using such "nonstandard" codes but translating many of them back to their "standard" base codes before exporting the data. In other words, it's easy for me to have private codes but turn them into the ten standard codes for public consumption. Unfortunately, for those with data in spreadsheets like Excel, this kind of conversion is more work. ********************************************** Ben and Bill Lane have both been generous in sharing their datafiles on X29 boxcars with me, and I've been reluctant to argue over bits of terminology. But I'm interested in advancing our knowledge base, particularly in paint schemes, so I'd welcome some discussion of how this coding might best be done. As in all things, I suspect a consensus can be achieved on part of this, and individuality will reign supreme in other elements. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:31:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units --part1_29.2a30dc7b.2a66af8a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I was really just trying to get a run down on what modelers want in a nut > shell not start a tread on F-unit phases again. How about some FT's?? I am not sure the PRR had any or very many, but the HO scale modeler could use another FT! :) Mike Schock List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group Sandusky, Ohio Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_29.2a30dc7b.2a66af8a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I was really just trying to get a run down on what modelers want in a nut
shell not start a tread on F-unit phases again.
How about some FT's??  I am not sure the PRR had any or very many, but the HO scale modeler could use another FT! :)

Mike Schock
List owner of the Transition Era Yahoo group
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling B&O and PRR in the Transition period --part1_29.2a30dc7b.2a66af8a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:36:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- proposed Buckeye Division --part1_b4.e9537a8.2a66b0be_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/02 9:34:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kwmcelre@rockwellcollins.com writes: > Rick, > > Amen and amen! I agree with all that you have said. But also to Stu's > question: I have reached the point where I believe that less is more when > it comes to multiple decks. A good single deck design with perhaps some > portion where one sees two diverging lines separated by grade is great, but > I feel that the visual focus of a single deck layout is hard to beat. The > multi-deck approach confines the view too much and destroys the sense of > "being there" for me. > I'm concerned about this dynamic also (I've seen some unbelievably cramped multiple deck plans). One of my primary design criteria for the proposed Buckeye Division is that the "top deck" be 2 or more feet wide and with a 3-4 foot tall backrop, lit by lights pretty close to the ceiling. This design provides plenty of "open air". As one writer recently said, "a layout is worthless if it can't be photographed". However, I also find the "once around through a scene" principle that the Layout Design SIG has practially made a religious doctrine means you either have a millionaire-sized basement (and we all envy the folks who do), or you build a multiple-deck layout with severely compromised scenery to get decent mileage. This is the same rock that Tony Koester recently ran into. Like any sane person, I'm looking for a way to break through this heifer dust, and wonder if a sincere, worthwhile, full-size top deck, with a narrow shelf say 12" deep by 12" high cantilevered underneath its front edge most of the way around, might be a good design. On one side of the room, the Columbus yards would be built low enough to be operable (the prototype PRR lay in a "railroad gulch" with higher land in front and to the rear). Columbus & Xenia main line going west would quickly become a shelf layout, climbing out of the Scioto River valley at a prototypically 0.7% grade, corkscrewing around the room through shallow shadow box representations of West Jefferson and London until it began the second lap as a "horizon" line passing behind the Columbus yard and Columbus Union Station (the prototype yard did have tracks up above it on the north side). Once leaving the Columbus city scene the second time, the main would pass through fairly deep scenery allowing good representations of South Charleston (crossing of the DT&I) where DC9 and DC8 join and leave this main. The "full scenery treatment" would continue through Cedarville, Wilberforce, and Xenia, where the line would split and run offstage to Cincinnati, to Dayton, and to Springfield. Xenia would be 18" or more higher than Columbus, although they would be separated visually by a wall. Xenia would be rendered as a local yard with perhaps 5 body tracks, and would originate locals in all four directions; it would be deliberately too small to break down mainline trains, but might be the swapping point for some blocks off through trains. Most of the crossings enroute will be fake diamonds with interchanges if they existed (Scioto, London, South Charleston, Greene Tower), and may be left out where they did not (Mounds, Miami Crossing). Online traffic generators are modest in 1968 -- we'll take all the elevators and fertilizer operators surviving then, and may revive a few more from earlier years. Though it would eventually lie behind the scenes, I plan in the first phase to build a continuous double track lap track around the basement that departs High Street west as the doubletrack line to Chicago (via Bradford and Logansport) and returns as the 3 track Columbus & Newark Division, bringing traffic into East Columbus from Pittsburgh, etc. This lap, lined with hidden storage tracks, will provide the heavy traffic through Columbus that's simply impossible to sustain with a modeled yard. Then the "modeled" part of the layout rising toward Xenia can swing off the continuous loop just west of CUS at High Street Tower. Of course, right now this is just the middle-risk option out of three plans that would take the Pennsy west out of Columbus. I'll be drawing and trading off these options in the months ahead, as I build some benchwork common to all three. Oh - one more comment. Buckeye Yard doesn't play a part here because it will still be in the future. The PRR was still forced to operate multiple yards, close to the downtown area, to get the work done. Thus, we'll be flat-switching, more or less on the same plant that steam finished up on in 1956 -- except that no home layout can hope to have more than a sampling of the facilities that still existed in 1966-1968. The buildings are neat, though -- and it's a very "railroady" scene. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_b4.e9537a8.2a66b0be_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/8/02 9:34:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kwmcelre@rockwellcollins.com writes:


Rick,

Amen and amen!  I agree with all that you have said.  But also to Stu's
question:  I have reached the point where I believe that less is more when
it comes to multiple decks.  A good single deck design with perhaps some
portion where one sees two diverging lines separated by grade is great, but
I feel that the visual focus of a single deck layout is hard to beat.  The
multi-deck approach confines the view too much and destroys the sense of
"being there" for me.


I'm concerned about this dynamic also (I've seen some unbelievably cramped multiple deck plans).  One of my primary design criteria for the proposed Buckeye Division is that the "top deck" be 2 or more feet wide and with a 3-4 foot tall backrop, lit by lights pretty close to the ceiling.  This design provides plenty of "open air".  As one writer recently said, "a layout is worthless if it can't be photographed".

However, I also find the "once around through a scene" principle that the Layout Design SIG has practially made a religious doctrine means you either have a  millionaire-sized basement (and we all envy the folks who do), or you build a multiple-deck layout with severely compromised scenery to get decent mileage.  This is the same rock that Tony Koester recently ran into.

Like any sane person, I'm looking for a way to break through this heifer dust, and wonder if a sincere, worthwhile, full-size top deck, with a narrow shelf say 12" deep by 12" high cantilevered underneath its front edge most of the way around, might be a good design. 

On one side of the room, the Columbus yards would be built low enough to be operable (the prototype PRR lay in a "railroad gulch" with higher land in front and to the rear).  Columbus & Xenia main line going west would quickly become a shelf layout, climbing out of the Scioto River valley at a prototypically 0.7% grade, corkscrewing around the room through shallow shadow box representations of West Jefferson and London until it began the second lap as a "horizon" line passing behind the Columbus yard and Columbus Union Station (the prototype yard did have tracks up above it on the north side).

Once leaving the Columbus city scene the second time, the main would pass through fairly deep scenery allowing good representations of South Charleston (crossing of the DT&I) where DC9 and DC8 join and leave this main.  The "full scenery treatment" would continue through Cedarville, Wilberforce, and Xenia, where the line would split and run offstage to Cincinnati, to Dayton, and to Springfield.  Xenia would be 18" or more higher than Columbus, although they would be separated visually by a wall.  Xenia would be rendered as a local yard with perhaps 5 body tracks, and would originate locals in all four directions; it would be deliberately too small to break down mainline trains, but might be the swapping point for some blocks off through trains.

Most of the crossings enroute will be fake diamonds with interchanges if they existed (Scioto, London, South Charleston, Greene Tower), and may be left out  where they did not (Mounds, Miami Crossing).  Online traffic generators are modest in 1968 -- we'll take all the elevators and fertilizer operators surviving then, and may revive a few more from earlier years. 

Though it would eventually lie behind the scenes, I plan in the first phase to build a continuous double track lap track around the basement that departs High Street west as the doubletrack line to Chicago (via Bradford and Logansport) and returns as the 3 track Columbus & Newark Division, bringing traffic into East Columbus from Pittsburgh, etc.  This lap, lined with hidden storage tracks, will provide the heavy traffic through Columbus that's simply impossible to sustain with a modeled yard.  Then the "modeled" part of the layout rising toward Xenia can swing off the continuous loop just west of CUS at High Street Tower.

Of course, right now this is just the middle-risk option out of three plans that would take the Pennsy west out of Columbus.  I'll be drawing and trading off these options in the months ahead, as I build some benchwork common to all three.

Oh - one more comment.  Buckeye Yard doesn't play a part here because it will still be in the future.  The PRR was still forced to operate multiple yards, close to the downtown area, to get the work done.  Thus, we'll be flat-switching, more or less on the same plant that steam finished up on in 1956 -- except that no home layout can hope to have more than a sampling of the facilities that still existed in 1966-1968.  The buildings are neat, though -- and it's a very "railroady" scene.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_b4.e9537a8.2a66b0be_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:36:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Class X29 Lettering codes -- where standards break down --part1_48.e7a43a9.2a66b0c5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 11:57:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ben Horn < b.hom@worldnet.att.net> writes: > Hi Bill, > > Apologies for the delay in getting this to you - it took me a lot longer > than I thought to go through all of my references and photo collection, but > here's the database as promised. I've added worksheets with photo > information and a bibliography. Some notes on the database: > > > 3. Paint schemes are in accordance with Brady McGuire's designation with > the following additions: > SK2c: Same as SK2b (Shadow Keystone, billboard "Pennsylvania", plain-style > "PRR" and numerals) without the billboard "Pennsylvania". > MOW: Car in MOW service. > NK5b: SK1b scheme without the Shadow Keystone as applied to MOW equipment. > "-S": Indicates "Square S" in upper left hand corner of car side. Ben, Bill, and friends, Brady McGuire's 10 basic lettering schemes (as described in his 1988 article and my 2002 one) cover the bulk of cases on revenue freight cars very well. On the other hand, I've found plenty of photos where these standard codes don't tell the whole story. That this is particularly true in work equipment, it also crops up with passenger-lettered cars, and it can even be seen in revenue freight. Reasons/reasoning is as follows: 1. MOW equipment (which Al Buchan and others claim the PRR called work equipment) - was painted in Renovo and other places, and was not bound by standard "Lettering Arrangement Drawings". Remember that these cars do not have to conform to interchange standards, and may have door and window arrangements not found on the revenue equipment they're built from. Thus, they commonly omit much data found on interchange cars, arrange stencil elements in different places on the carbody, mix stencil elements from different eras, and often leave off the monogram or the PENNSYLVANIA name. Sometimes their lettering doesn't look like standard lettering phases at all. 2. Express boxcars (especially X29's) - these are freight cars equipped to travel in passenger service. Most were lettered consistently, but from observation, there were SK2b cars that economized by omitting the big PENNSYLVANIA above the reporting marks. And on some of these cars, it's tough to tell from a photo whether the keystone was once shadowed or not. 3. Revenue cars - especially after some time has passed, strange things can happen to a standard revenue paint scheme. When a car is partially re-lettere d to make the reporting marks legible, some of the older lettering scheme's elements may remain, providing a seemingly "hybrid" scheme. Sometimes only enough lettering is restored so the car number can be read. And (offroad), a car with deteriorated lettering may receive some oddball typeface known only at the faraway shop that did the re-mark. I'm going to beg for good judgement in how we interpret these schemes. A. My first plea is for a recognition that not all cars are in "standard" paint, and we will see paint schemes not conforming to a Lettering Arrangement Drawing. As a suggestion, I suggest we try to decide what standard scheme the odd scheme is based on, and code from it. For example, if an MoW car carries the PENNSYLVANIA and road number of PK, it's still basically that PK stencil set even if the plain (unshaded) keystone we expect is missing. Personally, I'm presently coding such a scheme as PKz, where PK tells me what standard lettering scheme was used, and z tells me the monogram is missing. For those X29 BX's in the Color Guide Volume 3 cited where the keystone is SK and reporting marks lettering is consistent with SK2b, I'm personally coding this IN MY OWN FILES as SK2bv, showing there is some variance from standard other than the absence of a monogram. B. Thus, I gently suggest that a letter code of SK2c is not what we want to do. What we really need is something that tells us this is recognizably SK2b, but something is off - like SK2bv (Shaded Keystone, 7" PRR and number, in "transition" type face, but with a variance). C. Likewise, I'd like to suggest that resorting to NK5 because a keystone is missing is undesirable. "NK" sets up an expectation that we are looking at pre-1930 lettering, characteristic of the railroad before a monogram was adopted for freight car markings. Instead, PKz tells us this is the standard 1961-68 lettering scheme, but with the monogram omitted. D. I agree with Ben that we need to recognize when a lettering scheme has been used on work equipment, and it happens I started using suffixes for this just as he did. Of course, I've already been beat up over terming these cars Maintenance of Way equipment, since that's apparently not the preferred PRR company terminology, so I didn't use the letters MoW (at least for long). Besides, using an MoW suffix doesn't tell us which color scheme the work equipment is in -- despite the well-known dates when freight car color gave way to gray, and gray gave way to chrome yellow, it's possible to find, say, PK lettering on all three. So I started classifying the not-quite-standard work equipment as follows: a. gray - like NK4gray b. yellow - like PKyello, except black roofed cars are PKyellk and silver roof cars are PKyells c. freight car color - like PKFCC (for stores department cars, those that also have the yellow 'S', I do see merit in using PK-S as Ben did, or maybe PKFCC-S). E. Once in a while, we will find a picture that conforms to no lettering standard. My practice here is to code simply with the letter 'V', indicating that the photo varies from all standard lettering schemes. Likewise, if the lettering is so obscured as to defy categorization, (or if not enough of the car is visible to tell) I just use the letter 'Z', meaning the correct code will remain missing. ******************************************** An admission: since I'm dealing with a database (MS Access), I have the option of using such "nonstandard" codes but translating many of them back to their "standard" base codes before exporting the data. In other words, it's easy for me to have private codes but turn them into the ten standard codes for public consumption. Unfortunately, for those with data in spreadsheets like Excel, this kind of conversion is more work. ********************************************** Ben and Bill Lane have both been generous in sharing their datafiles on X29 boxcars with me, and I've been reluctant to argue over bits of terminology. But I'm interested in advancing our knowledge base, particularly in paint schemes, so I'd welcome some discussion of how this coding might best be done. As in all things, I suspect a consensus can be achieved on part of this, and individuality will reign supreme in other elements. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_48.e7a43a9.2a66b0c5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 11:57:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ben Horn <b.hom@worldnet.att.net> writes:


Hi Bill,

Apologies for the delay in getting this to you - it took me a lot longer
than I thought to go through all of my references and photo collection, but
here's the database as promised.  I've added worksheets with photo
information and a bibliography.  Some notes on the database:



<snip>


3.  Paint schemes are in accordance with Brady McGuire's designation with
the following additions:
SK2c:  Same as SK2b (Shadow Keystone, billboard "Pennsylvania", plain-style
"PRR" and numerals) without the billboard "Pennsylvania".
MOW:  Car in MOW service.
NK5b:  SK1b scheme without the Shadow Keystone as applied to MOW equipment.
"-S":  Indicates "Square S" in upper left hand corner of car side.


Ben, Bill, and friends,

Brady McGuire's 10 basic lettering schemes (as described in his 1988 article and my 2002 one) cover the bulk of cases on revenue freight cars very well.  On the other hand, I've found plenty of photos where these standard codes don't tell the whole story.  That this is particularly true in work equipment, it also crops up with passenger-lettered cars, and it can even be seen in revenue freight.  Reasons/reasoning is as follows:

1.  MOW equipment (which Al Buchan and others claim the PRR called work equipment) - was painted in Renovo and other places, and was not bound by standard "Lettering Arrangement Drawings".  Remember that these cars do not have to conform to interchange standards, and may have door and window arrangements not found on the revenue equipment they're built from.  Thus, they commonly omit much data found on interchange cars, arrange stencil elements in different places on the carbody, mix stencil elements from different eras, and often leave off the monogram or the PENNSYLVANIA name.  Sometimes their lettering doesn't look like standard lettering phases at all.

2.  Express boxcars (especially X29's) - these are freight cars equipped to travel in passenger service.  Most were lettered consistently, but from observation, there were SK2b cars that economized by omitting the big PENNSYLVANIA above the reporting marks.  And on some of these cars, it's tough to tell from a photo whether the keystone was once shadowed or not.

3.  Revenue cars - especially after some time has passed, strange things can happen to a standard revenue paint scheme.  When a car is partially re-lettered to make the reporting marks legible, some of the older lettering scheme's elements may remain, providing a seemingly "hybrid" scheme.  Sometimes only enough lettering is restored so the car number can be read.  And (offroad), a car with deteriorated lettering may receive some oddball typeface known only at the faraway shop that did the re-mark.

I'm going to beg for good judgement in how we interpret these schemes. 

A.  My first plea is for a recognition that not all cars are in "standard" paint, and we will see paint schemes not conforming to a Lettering Arrangement Drawing.  As a suggestion, I suggest we try to decide what standard scheme the odd scheme is based on, and code from it.  For example, if an MoW car carries the PENNSYLVANIA and road number of PK, it's still basically that PK stencil set even if the plain (unshaded) keystone we expect is missing.  Personally, I'm presently coding such a scheme as PKz, where PK tells me what standard lettering scheme was used, and z tells me the monogram is missing.  For those X29 BX's in the Color Guide Volume 3 cited where the keystone is SK and reporting marks lettering is consistent with SK2b, I'm personally coding this IN MY OWN FILES as SK2bv, showing there is some variance from standard other than the absence of a monogram.

B.  Thus, I gently suggest that a letter code of SK2c is not what we want to do.  What we really need is something that tells us this is recognizably SK2b, but something is off - like SK2bv (Shaded Keystone, 7" PRR and number, in "transition" type face, but with a variance).

C.  Likewise, I'd like to suggest that resorting to NK5 because a keystone is missing is undesirable.  "NK" sets up an expectation that we are looking at pre-1930 lettering, characteristic of the railroad before a monogram was adopted for freight car markings.  Instead, PKz tells us this is the standard 1961-68 lettering scheme, but with the monogram omitted.

D.  I agree with Ben that we need to recognize when a lettering scheme has been used on work equipment, and it happens I started using suffixes for this just as he did.  Of course, I've already been beat up over terming these cars Maintenance of Way equipment, since that's apparently not the preferred PRR company terminology, so I didn't use the letters MoW (at least for long).  Besides, using an MoW suffix doesn't tell us which color scheme the work equipment is in -- despite the well-known dates when freight car color gave way to gray, and gray gave way to chrome yellow, it's possible to find, say, PK lettering on all three.  So I started classifying the not-quite-standard work equipment as follows:
       a. gray - like NK4gray
       b. yellow - like PKyello, except black roofed cars are PKyellk and silver roof cars are PKyells
       c. freight car color - like PKFCC (for stores department cars, those that also have the yellow 'S', I do see merit in using PK-S as Ben did, or maybe PKFCC-S).

E.  Once in a while, we will find a picture that conforms to no lettering standard.  My practice here is to code simply with the letter 'V', indicating that the photo varies from all standard lettering schemes.  Likewise, if the lettering is so obscured as to defy categorization, (or if not enough of the car is visible to tell) I just use the letter 'Z', meaning the correct code will remain missing.

********************************************
An admission: since I'm dealing with a database (MS Access), I have the option of using such "nonstandard" codes but translating many of them back to their  "standard" base codes before exporting the data.  In other words, it's easy for me to have private codes but turn them into the ten standard codes for public consumption.  Unfortunately, for those with data in spreadsheets like Excel, this kind of conversion is more work.

**********************************************

Ben and Bill Lane have both been generous in sharing their datafiles on X29 boxcars with me, and I've been reluctant to argue over bits of terminology.  But I'm interested in advancing our knowledge base, particularly in paint schemes, so I'd welcome some discussion of how this coding might best be done.  As in all things, I suspect a consensus can be achieved on part of this, and individuality will reign supreme in other elements.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_48.e7a43a9.2a66b0c5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:38:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units From: Jerry Britton On 7/17/02 7:31 AM, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com (USMCnewdog25431@cs.com) wrote: > > How about some FT's?? I am not sure the PRR had any or very many, but the HO > scale modeler could use another FT! :) > The PRR did not own any FT's. FWIW, N scalers have FT's coming from both MicroTrains and InterMountain. InterMountain will likely follow with another F unit that would be correct for Pennsy. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 07:49:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- proposed From: Jerry Britton On 7/17/02 7:36 AM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > I'm concerned about this dynamic also (I've seen some unbelievably cramped > multiple deck plans). One of my primary design criteria for the proposed > Buckeye Division is that the "top deck" be 2 or more feet wide and with a 3-4 > foot tall backrop, lit by lights pretty close to the ceiling. This design > provides plenty of "open air". As one writer recently said, "a layout is > worthless if it can't be photographed". > > However, I also find the "once around through a scene" principle that the > Layout Design SIG has practially made a religious doctrine means you either > have a millionaire-sized basement (and we all envy the folks who do), or you > build a multiple-deck layout with severely compromised scenery to get decent > mileage. This is the same rock that Tony Koester recently ran into. > My own layout, the Eastern region (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/) uses multiple decks. It's under construction, so I can't say for sure how it is going to turn out, but I believe it will do well. Both the main and upper decks have the real estate to be wide. The main deck is 2-3' deep and contains the Harrisburg passenger station. It is only 39" off the floor, so the viewer has more of a "top down" view...which actually, I believe, is a benefit for the size of the physical plant. The upper deck meanders and will be anywhere from 12" to 30" deep. It is the eastern slope west of Altoona. It enters visible at about 54" and climbs from there. Scenery will drop below and in front of the right-of-way and there will be room for the mountains to extend all the way to the ceiling. The effect I want -- and I believe I can achieve -- is to provide the view modern day travelers on Route 22 see when they look across Sugar Run at the main line skirting the edge of the mountain. Construction of this stretch of the upper level is still about six months off. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:36:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Kato SD45 rerun (HO) Looks like Kato is finally going to do the SD45 in HO for us. http://www.katousa.com/cgi-bin/dl/dl.pl?dl.mif,Kato_2002_Poster.pdf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:18:53 +0000 How about some FT's?? I am not sure the PRR had any or very many, but the HO > > scale modeler could use another FT! :) Prr had no FT's other very early diesels. they were convinced they could build steam that could compete accross the board. Earliest road units were E7's for passenger and F3's ( almost F7's) for freight. Their allegience to steam has been contirbuted to loyalty to online coal companies and/or a parochial view in Altoona > On 7/17/02 7:31 AM, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com (USMCnewdog25431@cs.com) wrote: > > > > > How about some FT's?? I am not sure the PRR had any or very many, but the HO > > scale modeler could use another FT! :) > > > The PRR did not own any FT's. > > FWIW, N scalers have FT's coming from both MicroTrains and InterMountain. > InterMountain will likely follow with another F unit that would be correct > for Pennsy. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:49:40 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers In a message dated 7/5/02 11:57:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes: Hi Bill, Ben, Bill, and all: Excuse me for splitting these responses up into several parts, but otherwise I find myself generating long, detailed, hard-to-read postings. This way, they may still be hard to read, but they're shorter... > Hi Bill, > > Apologies for the delay in getting this to you - it took me a lot longer > than I thought to go through all of my references and photo collection, but > here's the database as promised. I've added worksheets with photo > information and a bibliography. Some notes on the database: > > 1. I corrected the "Repaint Date" column to "Reweigh Date". Cars were > almost always reweighed when painted; however, cars were also reweighed > periodically between repaintings. The old information was simply painted > over and the new reweigh station data and date reweighed stenciled on the > car. (By the way, there aren't any dashes in Pennsy car classes - it's > X29, > not X-29.) > > 2. "?" in a field indicates that that piece of data was present on the car > but could not be identified in the photo. "None" indicates the absence of > that piece of data. BTW, I (Rick) like this practice. I need a third marker for "this thing needs rechecking" - I find myself using '?' for that. I've also used 'Z' for the absence of data, as opposed to it being present but unreadable. We need three distress codes here: a. one for "needs to be revisited" (maybe a '?') b. one for data present but cannot be read (maybe a 'nr' for definitely not readable) c. one for data that's just not there (maybe 'none') > > Cc: addressees: Information forwarded FYI. Constructive > comments/suggestions appreciated. > > > Ben > Ben (and all) help me out on the dreadnaught end. Some "facts" to check: 1. These dreadnaught ends are 4/4 with a square top. The gable (not correct terminology) between the square end top and the end of the roof is recessed. 2. As built, these dreadnaught ends were applied in new construction 1932 and later. The dreadnaught end cars as built were assigned numbers in the 100,000 to (roughly) 103,000 series, and at the time constituted the last 10% built of the huge (30,000 car?) X29 fleet. 3. A batch of X29's were converted to BX express boxes in the 30's and 40's. Some but not all held 4-digit passenger numbers 2000-2499 before 1943; others kept their freight numbers later. Then, circa 1958, larger numbers of X29's were converted and put into several 4-digit series. Presumably any X29 BX's still having freight numbers were moved into these new series also between Dec 1958 and 1965. 4. Some of these cars converted over the years were from the dreadnaught cars. This is why we see BX's with dreadnaught ends, for example #1993, 2145, 2469, 4892 -- we don't have enough data points to say whether these cars' entire series are all dreadnaught, contain other dreadnaughts, or what. However, it is probably a no-brainer that the dreadnaught cars were good candidates, since they were newer than other X29's. 5. Also circa 1955-1961, certain dreadnaughts were converted to company service or work equipment. Known example: 498040, which was photographed in a gray PK scheme and assigned to company sand service out of McVeytown PA. However, the photographic evidence shows that all the other company service cars (mostly in freight car color) had plate ends -- Was this by accident, or were they deliberately using older cars? 4. Meantime, the rest of the dreadnaught-end cars stayed in 100,000 to 103324. I believe this series was mostly out of service by the time I started shooting X29's in 1972, as I took no photos of them in revenue freight lettering. 5. This discussion now brings me up to a car numbered 10,000 in Ben Horn's list (in CK and reweighed P293 9-44, and also a car numbered 10,866 in Bill Lane's listing (in CK and with reweigh mark of P48 5-58). Because these are shown as dreadnaught end cars without Railway Express Agency markings, I'm almost sure both are transcription errors, and the cars should be in this 100,000-103324 series. Additionally, I haven't found any X29 cars in a 10,000 series in my few ORER's and ORPTE's -- naturally, this alone doesn't prove that such a number series didn't once exist, but the fact of reweigh dates in the 40's and 50's says we should be able to find listings for thesee cars -- and I can't. The level of mismatch probably justifies rechecking the original sources. Any help would be appreciated... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ps3dMC/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:49:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers --part1_f2.1e97c351.2a671644_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 11:57:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes: Hi Bill, Ben, Bill, and all: Excuse me for splitting these responses up into several parts, but otherwise I find myself generating long, detailed, hard-to-read postings. This way, they may still be hard to read, but they're shorter... > Hi Bill, > > Apologies for the delay in getting this to you - it took me a lot longer > than I thought to go through all of my references and photo collection, but > here's the database as promised. I've added worksheets with photo > information and a bibliography. Some notes on the database: > > 1. I corrected the "Repaint Date" column to "Reweigh Date". Cars were > almost always reweighed when painted; however, cars were also reweighed > periodically between repaintings. The old information was simply painted > over and the new reweigh station data and date reweighed stenciled on the > car. (By the way, there aren't any dashes in Pennsy car classes - it's > X29, > not X-29.) > > 2. "?" in a field indicates that that piece of data was present on the car > but could not be identified in the photo. "None" indicates the absence of > that piece of data. BTW, I (Rick) like this practice. I need a third marker for "this thing needs rechecking" - I find myself using '?' for that. I've also used 'Z' for the absence of data, as opposed to it being present but unreadable. We need three distress codes here: a. one for "needs to be revisited" (maybe a '?') b. one for data present but cannot be read (maybe a 'nr' for definitely not readable) c. one for data that's just not there (maybe 'none') > > Cc: addressees: Information forwarded FYI. Constructive > comments/suggestions appreciated. > > > Ben > Ben (and all) help me out on the dreadnaught end. Some "facts" to check: 1. These dreadnaught ends are 4/4 with a square top. The gable (not correct terminology) between the square end top and the end of the roof is recessed. 2. As built, these dreadnaught ends were applied in new construction 1932 and later. The dreadnaught end cars as built were assigned numbers in the 100,000 to (roughly) 103,000 series, and at the time constituted the last 10% built of the huge (30,000 car?) X29 fleet. 3. A batch of X29's were converted to BX express boxes in the 30's and 40's. Some but not all held 4-digit passenger numbers 2000-2499 before 1943; others kept their freight numbers later. Then, circa 1958, larger numbers of X29's were converted and put into several 4-digit series. Presumably any X29 BX's still having freight numbers were moved into these new series also between Dec 1958 and 1965. 4. Some of these cars converted over the years were from the dreadnaught cars. This is why we see BX's with dreadnaught ends, for example #1993, 2145, 2469, 4892 -- we don't have enough data points to say whether these cars' entire series are all dreadnaught, contain other dreadnaughts, or what. However, it is probably a no-brainer that the dreadnaught cars were good candidates, since they were newer than other X29's. 5. Also circa 1955-1961, certain dreadnaughts were converted to company service or work equipment. Known example: 498040, which was photographed in a gray PK scheme and assigned to company sand service out of McVeytown PA. However, the photographic evidence shows that all the other company service cars (mostly in freight car color) had plate ends -- Was this by accident, or were they deliberately using older cars? 4. Meantime, the rest of the dreadnaught-end cars stayed in 100,000 to 103324. I believe this series was mostly out of service by the time I started shooting X29's in 1972, as I took no photos of them in revenue freight lettering. 5. This discussion now brings me up to a car numbered 10,000 in Ben Horn's list (in CK and reweighed P293 9-44, and also a car numbered 10,866 in Bill Lane's listing (in CK and with reweigh mark of P48 5-58). Because these are shown as dreadnaught end cars without Railway Express Agency markings, I'm almost sure both are transcription errors, and the cars should be in this 100,000-103324 series. Additionally, I haven't found any X29 cars in a 10,000 series in my few ORER's and ORPTE's -- naturally, this alone doesn't prove that such a number series didn't once exist, but the fact of reweigh dates in the 40's and 50's says we should be able to find listings for thesee cars -- and I can't. The level of mismatch probably justifies rechecking the original sources. Any help would be appreciated... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_f2.1e97c351.2a671644_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 11:57:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes:

Hi Bill, Ben, Bill, and all:

Excuse me for splitting these responses up into several parts, but otherwise I find myself generating long, detailed, hard-to-read postings.  This way, they may still be hard to read, but they're shorter...


Hi Bill,

Apologies for the delay in getting this to you - it took me a lot longer
than I thought to go through all of my references and photo collection, but
here's the database as promised.  I've added worksheets with photo
information and a bibliography.  Some notes on the database:

1.  I corrected the "Repaint Date" column to "Reweigh Date".  Cars were
almost always reweighed when painted; however, cars were also reweighed
periodically between repaintings.  The old information was simply painted
over and the new reweigh station data and date reweighed stenciled on the
car.  (By the way, there aren't any dashes in Pennsy car classes - it's X29,
not X-29.)

2.  "?" in a field indicates that that piece of data was present on the car
but could not be identified in the photo.  "None" indicates the absence of
that piece of data.



BTW, I (Rick) like this practice.  I need a third marker for "this thing needs rechecking" - I find myself using '?' for that.  I've also used 'Z' for the absence of data, as opposed to it being present but unreadable.  We need three distress codes here:
a. one for "needs to be revisited" (maybe a '?')
b. one for data present but cannot be read (maybe a 'nr' for definitely not readable)
c. one for data that's just not there (maybe 'none')

<snip - skip lettering coding discussion dealt with in another post>


Cc: addressees:  Information forwarded FYI.  Constructive
comments/suggestions appreciated.


Ben



Ben (and all) help me out on the dreadnaught end.  Some "facts" to check:

1.  These dreadnaught ends are 4/4 with a square top.  The gable (not correct terminology) between the square end top and the end of the roof is recessed.

2.  As built, these dreadnaught ends were applied in new construction 1932 and later.  The dreadnaught end cars as built were assigned numbers in the 100,000 to (roughly) 103,000 series, and at the time constituted the last 10% built of the huge (30,000 car?) X29 fleet.

3.  A batch of X29's were converted to BX express boxes in the 30's and 40's.  Some but not all held 4-digit passenger numbers 2000-2499 before 1943; others kept their freight numbers later.  Then, circa 1958, larger numbers of X29's were converted and put into several 4-digit series.  Presumably any X29 BX's still having freight numbers were moved into these new series also between Dec 1958 and 1965. 

4.  Some of these cars converted over the years were from the dreadnaught cars.  This is why we see BX's with dreadnaught ends, for example #1993, 2145, 2469, 4892 -- we don't have enough data points to say whether these cars' entire series are all dreadnaught, contain other dreadnaughts, or what.  However, it is probably a no-brainer that the dreadnaught cars were good candidates, since they were newer than other X29's.

5.  Also circa 1955-1961, certain dreadnaughts were converted to company service or work equipment.  Known example: 498040, which was photographed in a gray PK scheme and assigned to company sand service out of McVeytown PA.  However, the photographic evidence shows that all the other company service cars (mostly in freight car color) had plate ends -- Was this by accident, or were they deliberately using older cars?

4.  Meantime, the rest of the dreadnaught-end cars stayed in 100,000 to 103324.  I believe this series was mostly out of service by the time I started shooting X29's in 1972, as I took no photos of them in revenue freight lettering.

5.  This discussion now brings me up to a car numbered 10,000 in Ben Horn's list (in CK and reweighed P293 9-44, and also a car numbered 10,866 in Bill Lane's listing (in CK and with reweigh mark of P48 5-58).  Because these are shown as dreadnaught end cars without Railway Express Agency markings, I'm almost sure both are transcription errors, and the cars should be in this 100,000-103324 series.  Additionally, I haven't found any X29 cars in a 10,000 series in my few ORER's and ORPTE's -- naturally, this alone doesn't prove that such a number series didn't once exist, but the fact of reweigh dates in the 40's and 50's says we should be able to find listings for thesee cars -- and I can't.

The level of mismatch probably justifies rechecking the original sources.  Any help would be appreciated...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_f2.1e97c351.2a671644_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:27:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] reweighing cars >> >> 1. I corrected the "Repaint Date" column to "Reweigh Date". Cars >> were >> almost always reweighed when painted; however, cars were also >> reweighed >> periodically between repaintings. The old information was simply >> painted >> over and the new reweigh station data and date reweighed stenciled >> on the >> car. (By the way, there aren't any dashes in Pennsy car classes - >> it's X29, >> not X-29.) > Why? What would significantly change the tare weight of a car and make reweighiing needed? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: Re: [PRR] reweighing cars Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:57:22 GMT > >> > >> 1. I corrected the "Repaint Date" column to "Reweigh Date". Cars > >> were > >> almost always reweighed when painted; however, cars were also > >> reweighed > >> periodically between repaintings. The old information was simply > >> painted > >> over and the new reweigh station data and date reweighed stenciled > >> on the > >> car. (By the way, there aren't any dashes in Pennsy car classes - > >> it's X29, > >> not X-29.) > > > > Why? What would significantly change the tare weight of a car and make > reweighiing needed? They must have used heavy paint back then.... Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:10:23 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Fw: Re: [PRR] Kato SD45 rerun (HO) --------------Boundary-00=_BP1FBHK0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: sjlash=0D Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:56:59 PM=0D To: PRR- Talk; shadow@dementia.org=0D Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato SD45 rerun (HO)=0D =0D Derrick and the List, Was there not a discussion on the list before, and the consensus was the detailing was to "general" for a Pennsy specific un= it? Or am I mistaken? Is this release going to be Pennsy specific? I hop= e that is the case, as every Kato unit I have is an excellent runner. Jim= =0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Derrick J Brashear=0D Date: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 10:37:55 AM=0D To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=0D Subject: [PRR] Kato SD45 rerun (HO)=0D =0D Looks like Kato is finally going to do the SD45 in HO for us.=0D =0D http://www.katousa.com/cgi-bin/dl/dl.pl?dl.mif,Kato_2002_Poster.pdf=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_BP1FBHK0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A
 
 
-------Original Message-------<= /I>
 
From: sjlash
Date: Wednes= day, July=20 17, 2002 6:56:59 PM
To: PRR- Talk; shadow@dementia.org
Subject: Re:= [PRR] Kato=20 SD45 rerun (HO)
 
Derrick and the List,  Was there not a discussion on the=20 list before, and the consensus was the detailing was to "gener= al" for=20 a Pennsy specific unit?   Or am I mistaken?  Is= this=20 release going to be Pennsy specific?   I hope that i= s the=20 case, as every Kato unit I have is an excellent runner.  = =20 Jim
 
-------Original Message-------<= /I>
 
From: Derrick J Brashear
Date: Wednes= day, July=20 17, 2002 10:37:55 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PR= R] Kato=20 SD45 rerun (HO)
 
Looks like Kato is finally going to do the SD45 in= HO for=20 us.

http://www.katousa.com/cgi-bin/dl/dl.pl?dl.mif,Kato_2002_Poster= =2Epdf


---------------------------------------------------= --------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

.<= /TD>
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
--------------Boundary-00=_BP1FBHK0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] reweighing cars Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:16:36 -0400 Charles, Among the things that change the tare weight are: 1. Wear - this is especially true of hopper cars, where loading and unloading wears down the side and slope sheets. 2. Changing wheels - as wheels wear and are re-turned, they lose weight. 3. Weld repairs - the additional metal used in a weld adds to the weight of the car. 4. Replacement of trucks or brake gear with newer replacements, which may be either heavier or lighter. The requirement used to be that cars be re-lightweighed at least once every 48 months, then once every 60 months. If you were paying the freight in cents per hundredweight, you wouldn't want the car to be lighter than its tare, because your customers would be getting free product! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: [PRR] reweighing cars > >> > >> 1. I corrected the "Repaint Date" column to "Reweigh Date". Cars > >> were > >> almost always reweighed when painted; however, cars were also > >> reweighed > >> periodically between repaintings. The old information was simply > >> painted > >> over and the new reweigh station data and date reweighed stenciled > >> on the > >> car. (By the way, there aren't any dashes in Pennsy car classes - > >> it's X29, > >> not X-29.) > > > > Why? What would significantly change the tare weight of a car and make > reweighiing needed? > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRR keystone logo gif file Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:20:58 -0400 Does anyone know a URL for a PRR logo that can be used in a signature on various forums like the Atlas ones? I was using the one at trainweb.org/njr/ but he took these off-line. Thanks. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:21:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics F-40 --part1_bc.2924f33a.2a675614_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received my F-40 today, man what a monster. Looks almost like an S scale model compared to my F-38. Very nice job Rail Classics. Todd Horton --part1_bc.2924f33a.2a675614_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received my F-40 today, man what a monster. Looks almost like an S scale model compared to my F-38. Very nice job Rail Classics. Todd Horton --part1_bc.2924f33a.2a675614_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:42:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] reweighing cars Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Charles, > > Among the things that change the tare weight are: > > 1. Wear - this is especially true of hopper cars, where loading and > unloading wears down the side and slope sheets. > > 2. Changing wheels - as wheels wear and are re-turned, they lose weight. > > 3. Weld repairs - the additional metal used in a weld adds to the weight of > the car. > > 4. Replacement of trucks or brake gear with newer replacements, which may be > either heavier or lighter. > > The requirement used to be that cars be re-lightweighed at least once every > 48 months, then once every 60 months. If you were paying the freight in > cents per hundredweight, you wouldn't want the car to be lighter than its > tare, because your customers would be getting free product! I find it surprising that those things would make a difference big enough to bother with. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Classics F-40 Todd & list, I agree with you 100%! I got my PRR F-40 last week. The detail is breathtaking. Rail Classics did an outstanding job. Rail Classics is also doing PRR's N-8 cabin cars in many different versions including Penn Central and Conrail with full interiors and lighted. I've already reserved two PRR versions and one PC version. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] reweighing cars Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:23:48 -0400 Charles, If your product sold for a dollar a pound and the sale was based on railroad weights, which was very common years ago, a 100 pound difference would matter to you. Slope sheet wear often amounted to 5000 lbs. per car, and new wheels weighed 500 lbs. more than wheels discarded for insufficient tread. Remember, the tare weight of the car was of great importance to the customer who filled the cars. He also provided the dollars to keep the railroad operating! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] reweighing cars > > > Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Charles, Among the things that change the tare weight are: 1. Wear - this is especially true of hopper cars, where loading and unloading wears down the side and slope sheets. 2. Changing wheels - as wheels wear and are re-turned, they lose weight. 3. Weld repairs - the additional metal used in a weld adds to the weight of the car. 4. Replacement of trucks or brake gear with newer replacements, which may be either heavier or lighter. The requirement used to be that cars be re-lightweighed at least once every 48 months, then once every 60 months. If you were paying the freight in cents per hundredweight, you wouldn't want the car to be lighter than its tare, because your customers would be getting free product! I find it surprising that those things would make a difference big enough to bother with. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:30:34 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units I wrote... > I am going to go to Athearn about the Genesis F-units one more time and I would like to know which one everyone would like to see... I have done this today and they want me to press forward until FRIDAY and then fire away the results. So for a current update here is the how the topic sizes up: F-3 phase 2 early --- 10 F-3 phase 3 --- 9 F-7 phase 2 --- 3 F-5 --- 3 F-3 phase 4 --- 2 F-7 phase 1 --- 1 I would have thought that there would have been moe vote for F-7's than there has been. Go Figure! I am going to run the survey until Friday night and send in the results on Saturday morning. Al it's time to step up and vote. Someone tip the scales! There was some private post regarding Athearn doing Dummy units and they are reseptive to the idea but I need to present the idea to Tom Geddes proper the first of the week. I requested that they do a special run (3) three unit sets of helper units. That will be considered. They did say they have to get at least 4 more versions out before they can come back to another PRR run (it would be the third run)but are going to do them. So if you have not voted step to the plate and let me know as they say "there's no crying in Baseball..." Here is what has just arrived at Athearn, the SANTA FE F-7 Warbonnets with the metal plating and they are working on several others that are just awaiting the final approval. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:31:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Kato SD45 rerun (HO) Jim, > Derrick and the Guys, Was there not a discussion on the list before, > and the consensus was the detailing was to "general" for a Pennsy > specific unit? Beats me, I can't remember. I have an undec here (in my hand) and will post specifics after dinner. This will not be a Pennsy-specific release;-) > Or am I mistaken? Is this release going to be Pennsy specific? I > hope that is the case, as every Kato unit I have is an excellent runner. > Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:35:04 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C22DD9.D0679E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rick Tipton wrote: This discussion now brings me up to a car numbered 10,000 in Ben Horn's = list (in CK and reweighed P293 9-44, and also a car numbered 10,866 in = Bill Lane's listing (in CK and with reweigh mark of P48 5-58). Because = these are shown as dreadnaught end cars without Railway Express Agency = markings, I'm almost sure both are transcription errors, and the cars = should be in this 100,000-103324 series. Additionally, I haven't found = any X29 cars in a 10,000 series in my few ORER's and ORPTE's -- = naturally, this alone doesn't prove that such a number series didn't = once exist, but the fact of reweigh dates in the 40's and 50's says we = should be able to find listings for these cars -- and I can't. The level of mismatch probably justifies rechecking the original = sources. Any help would be appreciated.. Rick, my apologies for getting you all worked up about a typo in the = database. The car number should read PRR 100000, and the photo is on = page 9 of the Autumn 1996 Keystone. Ben HOM (not "Horn"...)=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C22DD9.D0679E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rick Tipton wrote:
 
This discussion now brings me = up to a car=20 numbered 10,000 in Ben Horn's list (in CK and reweighed P293 9-44, and = also a=20 car numbered 10,866 in Bill Lane's listing (in CK and with reweigh mark = of P48=20 5-58).  Because these are shown as dreadnaught end cars without = Railway=20 Express Agency markings, I'm almost sure both are transcription errors, = and the=20 cars should be in this 100,000-103324 series.  Additionally, I = haven't=20 found any X29 cars in a 10,000 series in my few ORER's and ORPTE's -- = naturally,=20 this alone doesn't prove that such a number series didn't once exist, = but the=20 fact of reweigh dates in the 40's and 50's says we should be able to = find=20 listings for these cars -- and I can't.

The level of mismatch = probably=20 justifies rechecking the original sources.  Any help would be=20 appreciated..
 
 
Rick, my apologies for getting you all worked up about a typo in = the=20 database.  The car number should read PRR 100000, and the photo is = on page=20 9 of the Autumn 1996 Keystone.
 
 
Ben HOM (not "Horn"...) 
------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01C22DD9.D0679E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 21:35:04 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Class X29 Dreadnaught Car numbers Rick Tipton wrote: This discussion now brings me up to a car numbered 10,000 in Ben Horn's list (in CK and reweighed P293 9-44, and also a car numbered 10,866 in Bill Lane's listing (in CK and with reweigh mark of P48 5-58). Because these are shown as dreadnaught end cars without Railway Express Agency markings, I'm almost sure both are transcription errors, and the cars should be in this 100,000-103324 series. Additionally, I haven't found any X29 cars in a 10,000 series in my few ORER's and ORPTE's -- naturally, this alone doesn't prove that such a number series didn't once exist, but the fact of reweigh dates in the 40's and 50's says we should be able to find listings for these cars -- and I can't. The level of mismatch probably justifies rechecking the original sources. Any help would be appreciated.. Rick, my apologies for getting you all worked up about a typo in the database. The car number should read PRR 100000, and the photo is on page 9 of the Autumn 1996 Keystone. Ben HOM (not "Horn"...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:39:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Classics F-40 --part1_2b.2a3beb6f.2a67845b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to add a larger load to the car. The very nice supplied casting looks good but it is almost dwarfed by the car. Anybody know of a pipe or tubing supplier that could have produced a load large enough to fill this car? I would like to add something and create a sign that mfgs used similar to Mesta, back in the day. Todd Horton --part1_2b.2a3beb6f.2a67845b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to add a larger load to the car. The very nice supplied casting looks good but it is almost dwarfed by the car. Anybody know of a pipe or tubing supplier that could have produced a load large enough to fill this car? I would like to add something and create a sign that mfgs used similar to Mesta, back in the day. Todd Horton --part1_2b.2a3beb6f.2a67845b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:16:50 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Greetings to the List, I just wanted to remind everyone about out Boxcar BBQ being held at the museum this Sat July 20th. $6 a head. Includes museum admission, a nice chicken BBQ with all the fixins and Building B will be reopened with some new exhibits. Nothing fancy but Scott Cessna has pulled out some stuff from the archives that to my knowledge have never been on public display. Blair Medical Associates will be having a health screening. we will be taking Blood Pressures and handing out health related info . There will be some K4 "junque" for sale. Stay bolt caps (2 sizes), Nuts , Stay bolt pieces and rivets. We have some larger pieces like the Stack and pieces of the Boiler and Backhead that will be on display. We will be auctioning some of these larger pieces at Railfest this year. Including the Stack. There will be a reserve on the Stack. That has not been set yet. Anyone who would like to purchase a piece of "junque" please contact me off list with your request and I will see what I can do. Thanks for your time, Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:45:30 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Wawa & Concordeville Hi All, I was just trying my new H P slide scanner when I came across slides of the Wawa and Concordville that ran on a former PRR branch. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/wawa1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/wawa2.jpg I have heard a few things about it from various people at the Phila. Chapter meetings. I heard that an impatient passenger got off the train before it stopped. A lawsuit brought the end of operations. I think I was there twice. I am going to be 40 in 2 weeks. The slides are dated 1970, meaning they could have been taken the summer before, or in 1970. I am holding a PRR lantern that my father bought a globe for it at the Wawa and Concordville. Any info would be appreciated. Enjoy, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:18:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units Eric, Al and all Pick you poison... Nobody is asking anyone to buy, just collecting good marketing information. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Classics F-40 Todd, If you want to put a larger load on the F-40 flatcar, you can always put a large square box on it than cover it with a canvas tarp. Get some scale cables and chains to tie it down. Looks like a real load. Just a thought. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 23:45:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Wawa & Concordeville Hi All, I was just trying my new H P slide scanner when I came across slides of the Wawa and Concordville that ran on a former PRR branch. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/wawa1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/wawa2.jpg I have heard a few things about it from various people at the Phila. Chapter meetings. I heard that an impatient passenger got off the train before it stopped. A lawsuit brought the end of operations. I think I was there twice. I am going to be 40 in 2 weeks. The slides are dated 1970, meaning they could have been taken the summer before, or in 1970. I am holding a PRR lantern that my father bought a globe for it at the Wawa and Concordville. Any info would be appreciated. Enjoy, Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/TPvn8A/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:39:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- proposed Buckeye --part1_190.9f474e8.2a6802f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/17/02 7:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > My own layout, the Eastern region (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/) uses > multiple decks. > > It's under construction, so I can't say for sure how it is going to turn > out, but I believe it will do well. > > Both the main and upper decks have the real estate to be wide. The main > deck > is 2-3' deep and contains the Harrisburg passenger station. It is only 39" > off the floor, so the viewer has more of a "top down" view...which > actually, > I believe, is a benefit for the size of the physical plant. > > The upper deck meanders and will be anywhere from 12" to 30" deep. It is > the > eastern slope west of Altoona. It enters visible at about 54" and climbs > from there. Scenery will drop below and in front of the right-of-way and > there will be room for the mountains to extend all the way to the ceiling. > The effect I want -- and I believe I can achieve -- is to provide the view > modern day travelers on Route 22 see when they look across Sugar Run at the > main line skirting the edge of the mountain. > > Construction of this stretch of the upper level is still about six months > off. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Thanks, Jerry I envy you your prototype, and the fact you're working in N scale -- a sensible approach to big-time railroading. First of all, I can't say that I feel multiple-deck layouts to be uniformly disappointing -- only that I'm inclined to applaud conservative planning. A key fact on this part of the Pennsy Lines West is that, after you climb out of the river valley at Columbus, the prototype grades are very low, which doesnt' really justify the continuously rising spiral around the room. The Panhandle faces the classic limitations of a "flatlander" railroad -- no hills to speak of, no really dramatic slopes like those found on the East Slope, no tunnels. Hiding storage yards, particularly at the "upper" end, is a problem. As I identified early on, the most dramatic scenery west of Columbus, the Little Miami gorge on the southern half of the line to Cincinnati, is also the one with the least traffic. For modeling closer to Columbus, when tracks leave a scene, they'll have to be hidden in deep cuts, in heavy woods, or under some highway bridge. Most importantly, this project is in HO -- in N, a scene that's somewhat narrower than those I project can still be a big scene. A footwide shelf in HO is really not much wider than the prototype right-of-way boundaries, although modelers habitually tend to tighten up on pole lines and tree lines and other track clearances. Probably what worries me most is that an HO model grain elevator tends to be about a foot tall, a bit tight for the shelf concept. It could get interesting... 2002 seems to be an unusually active time in model railroading, with many of our favorite older layouts coming down and new projects going up. I look forward to seeing the heavy railroading possible on the plant you are building, just as I anticipate some fun with the lesser but still substantial traffic density available at Columbus on the new Buckeye Division. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_190.9f474e8.2a6802f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/17/02 7:53:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


My own layout, the Eastern region (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/) uses
multiple decks.

It's under construction, so I can't say for sure how it is going to turn
out, but I believe it will do well.

Both the main and upper decks have the real estate to be wide. The main deck
is 2-3' deep and contains the Harrisburg passenger station. It is only 39"
off the floor, so the viewer has more of a "top down" view...which actually,
I believe, is a benefit for the size of the physical plant.

The upper deck meanders and will be anywhere from 12" to 30" deep. It is the
eastern slope west of Altoona. It enters visible at about 54" and climbs
from there. Scenery will drop below and in front of the right-of-way and
there will be room for the mountains to extend all the way to the ceiling.
The effect I want -- and I believe I can achieve -- is to provide the view
modern day travelers on Route 22 see when they look across Sugar Run at the
main line skirting the edge of the mountain.

Construction of this stretch of the upper level is still about six months
off.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com


Thanks, Jerry

I envy you your prototype, and the fact you're working in N scale -- a sensible approach to big-time railroading.

First of all, I can't say that I feel multiple-deck layouts to be uniformly disappointing -- only that I'm inclined to applaud conservative planning.  A key fact on this part of the Pennsy Lines West is that, after you climb out of the river valley at Columbus, the prototype grades are very low, which doesnt' really justify the continuously rising spiral around the room.

The Panhandle faces the classic limitations of a "flatlander" railroad -- no hills to speak of, no really dramatic slopes like those found on the East Slope, no tunnels.  Hiding storage yards, particularly at the "upper" end, is a problem.

As I identified early on, the most dramatic scenery west of Columbus, the Little Miami gorge on the southern half of the line to Cincinnati, is also the one with the least traffic.  For modeling closer to Columbus, when tracks leave a scene, they'll have to be hidden in deep cuts, in heavy woods, or under some highway bridge.

Most importantly, this project is in HO -- in N, a scene that's somewhat narrower than those I project can still be a big scene.  A footwide shelf in HO is really not much wider than the prototype right-of-way boundaries, although modelers habitually tend to tighten up on pole lines and tree lines and other track clearances.  Probably what worries me most is that an HO model grain elevator tends to be about a foot tall, a bit tight for the shelf concept.  It could get interesting...

2002 seems to be an unusually active time in model railroading, with many of our favorite older layouts coming down and new projects going up.  I look forward to seeing the heavy railroading possible on the plant you are building, just as I anticipate some fun with the lesser but still substantial traffic density available at Columbus on the new Buckeye Division.



                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_190.9f474e8.2a6802f4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:46:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- proposed From: Jerry Britton On 7/18/02 7:39 AM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > First of all, I can't say that I feel multiple-deck layouts to be uniformly > disappointing -- only that I'm inclined to applaud conservative planning. A > key fact on this part of the Pennsy Lines West is that, after you climb out of > the river valley at Columbus, the prototype grades are very low, which doesnt' > really justify the continuously rising spiral around the room. > It is unfair to lump "multi level layouts" with "continuously rising spiral around the room". One does not require the other. Though a "continuously rising spiral around the room" is one method of getting trains from one level to another, so is a helix. My layout uses both techniques. A helix takes trains from staging to the main level. From there a "continuously rising spiral around the room" takes trains up another 10" where they enter a second helix to the top level. Yet a third helix returns trains all the way back to the bottom at the opposite end of staging. The first and second helixes are vertically stacked. Having two helixes is typically only practical in N scale due to the footprint required. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:29:15 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- Rick, Jerry and all: If you think Columbus and Ohio are flat. . . visit Delmarva sometime. The Northbound controlling grade south of Delmar (DE) is the float bridge coming off the car float at Cape Charles at low tide and the only bridge is at Cassatt over the Pocomoke River -- the controlling grade going north! Almost no curves, 10 mile long tangents, no underpasses (in the 50's), no tunnels and little else of visual interest to most folks. And nothing bigger than a K4s or L1 in the steam era, all the leftovers in dieseldom, mostly small Baldwins and Alcos....but I'm going to model this as best I can on an HO single level shelf layout in a 12x 25 office/ computer/ workroom above the garage. Each to his own with the space and dollars available. When I figure out a track plan, I'll share it. Jim McDaniel, planning on modeling Delmarva in the 50's, Belle Have Station to Weirwood for now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:22:54 -0500 Actually, the Panhandle just west of Pittsburgh doen't get flat until its well in Ohio. -----Original Message----- From: James L. McDaniel [mailto:jlmcdaniel@esva.net] Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 6:29 AM To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- proposed Buckeye Division in 2-3 le... Rick, Jerry and all: If you think Columbus and Ohio are flat. . . visit Delmarva sometime. The Northbound controlling grade south of Delmar (DE) is the float bridge coming off the car float at Cape Charles at low tide and the only bridge is at Cassatt over the Pocomoke River -- the controlling grade going north! Almost no curves, 10 mile long tangents, no underpasses (in the 50's), no tunnels and little else of visual interest to most folks. And nothing bigger than a K4s or L1 in the steam era, all the leftovers in dieseldom, mostly small Baldwins and Alcos....but I'm going to model this as best I can on an HO single level shelf layout in a 12x 25 office/ computer/ workroom above the garage. Each to his own with the space and dollars available. When I figure out a track plan, I'll share it. Jim McDaniel, planning on modeling Delmarva in the 50's, Belle Have Station to Weirwood for now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:07:02 +0000 If I remember correctly the Little Miami River gorge has the highest bridge (I-71) in all of Ohio. I canoed through that area many years ago. I-71 even has a scenic view to see the gorge. The area is very much like western PA except that the gorge is a valley instead of a mountain. Could be a very interesting area to model particularly the branch to Morrow Ohio made famous in the Kingston Trio song To Morrow. > Actually, the Panhandle just west of Pittsburgh doen't get flat until its > well in Ohio. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James L. McDaniel [mailto:jlmcdaniel@esva.net] > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 6:29 AM > To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com > Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- > proposed Buckeye Division in 2-3 le... > > > Rick, Jerry and all: > > If you think Columbus and Ohio are flat. . . visit Delmarva sometime. > The Northbound controlling grade south of Delmar (DE) is the float > bridge coming off the car float at Cape Charles at low tide and the only > bridge is at Cassatt over the Pocomoke River -- the controlling grade > going north! > > Almost no curves, 10 mile long tangents, no underpasses (in the 50's), > no tunnels and little else of visual interest to most folks. And nothing > bigger than a K4s or L1 in the steam era, all the leftovers in > dieseldom, mostly small Baldwins and Alcos....but I'm going to model > this as best I can on an HO single level shelf layout in a 12x 25 > office/ computer/ workroom above the garage. Each to his own with the > space and dollars available. > > When I figure out a track plan, I'll share it. > > Jim McDaniel, planning on modeling Delmarva in the 50's, Belle Have > Station to Weirwood for now. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:05:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FW: Athern Genesis F7 units --part1_33.2a20e89b.2a677c87_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/17/2002 7:39:46 PM Central Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: > I would have thought that there would have been moe vote for F-7's than > there has been. Go Figure! I am going to run the survey until Friday night > and send in the results on Saturday morning. Al it's time to step up and > vote. Someone tip the scales! > > There was some private post regarding Athearn doing Dummy units and they > are reseptive to the idea but I need to present the idea to Tom Geddes > proper the first of the week. I requested that they do a special run (3) > three unit sets of helper units. That will be considered. They did say they > have to get at least 4 more versions out before they can come back to > another PRR run (it would be the third run)but are going to do them. So if > you have not voted step to the plate and let me know as they say "there's > no crying in Baseball..." > > Hi Greg, I would have voted, but I have ABA Highliners, ABBA Intermountain and highest priority on my list now is to find a Rail Classics F40 to buy at a reasonable price. I'm letting those who will buy vote. Otherwise I'd vote for an F7. But that can't count. Al --part1_33.2a20e89b.2a677c87_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/17/2002 7:39:46 PM Central Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:


I would have thought that there would have been moe vote for F-7's than there has been. Go Figure!  I am going to run the survey until Friday night and send in the results on Saturday morning. Al it's time to step up and vote. Someone tip the scales!

There was some private post regarding Athearn doing Dummy units and they are reseptive to the idea but I need to present the idea to Tom Geddes proper the first of the week. I requested that they do a special run (3) three unit sets of helper units. That will be considered. They did say they have to get at least 4 more versions out before they can come back to another PRR run (it would be the third run)but are going to do them. So if you have not voted step to the plate and let me know as they say "there's no crying in Baseball..."



Hi Greg,
I would have voted, but I have ABA Highliners, ABBA Intermountain and highest priority on my list now is to find a Rail Classics F40 to buy at a reasonable price. I'm letting those who will buy vote. Otherwise I'd vote for an F7. But that can't count.
Al --part1_33.2a20e89b.2a677c87_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:15:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] [PRR-Modeling] PRR Class X29 Lettering codes -- where standards break Ben, Bill, and friends, Brady McGuire's 10 basic lettering schemes (as described in his 1988 article and my 2002 one) cover the bulk of cases on revenue freight cars very well. On the other hand, I've found plenty of photos where these standard codes don't tell the whole story. That this is particularly true in work equipment, it also crops up with passenger-lettered cars, and it can even be seen in revenue freight. Reasons/reasoning is as follows: 1. MOW equipment (which Al Buchan and others claim the PRR called work equipment) - was painted in Renovo and other places, and was not bound by standard "Lettering Arrangement Drawings". Remember that these cars do not have to conform to interchange standards, and may have door and window arrangements not found on the revenue equipment they're built from. Thus, they commonly omit much data found on interchange cars, arrange stencil elements in different places on the carbody, mix stencil elements from different eras, and often leave off the monogram or the PENNSYLVANIA name. Sometimes their lettering doesn't look like standard lettering phases at all. 2. Express boxcars (especially X29's) - these are freight cars equipped to travel in passenger service. Most were lettered consistently, but from observation, there were SK2b cars that economized by omitting the big PENNSYLVANIA above the reporting marks. And on some of these cars, it's tough to tell from a photo whether the keystone was once shadowed or not. 3. Revenue cars - especially after some time has passed, strange things can happen to a standard revenue paint scheme. When a car is partially re-lettere d to make the reporting marks legible, some of the older lettering scheme's elements may remain, providing a seemingly "hybrid" scheme. Sometimes only enough lettering is restored so the car number can be read. And (offroad), a car with deteriorated lettering may receive some oddball typeface known only at the faraway shop that did the re-mark. I'm going to beg for good judgement in how we interpret these schemes. A. My first plea is for a recognition that not all cars are in "standard" paint, and we will see paint schemes not conforming to a Lettering Arrangement Drawing. As a suggestion, I suggest we try to decide what standard scheme the odd scheme is based on, and code from it. For example, if an MoW car carries the PENNSYLVANIA and road number of PK, it's still basically that PK stencil set even if the plain (unshaded) keystone we expect is missing. Personally, I'm presently coding such a scheme as PKz, where PK tells me what standard lettering scheme was used, and z tells me the monogram is missing. For those X29 BX's in the Color Guide Volume 3 cited where the keystone is SK and reporting marks lettering is consistent with SK2b, I'm personally coding this IN MY OWN FILES as SK2bv, showing there is some variance from standard other than the absence of a monogram. B. Thus, I gently suggest that a letter code of SK2c is not what we want to do. What we really need is something that tells us this is recognizably SK2b, but something is off - like SK2bv (Shaded Keystone, 7" PRR and number, in "transition" type face, but with a variance). C. Likewise, I'd like to suggest that resorting to NK5 because a keystone is missing is undesirable. "NK" sets up an expectation that we are looking at pre-1930 lettering, characteristic of the railroad before a monogram was adopted for freight car markings. Instead, PKz tells us this is the standard 1961-68 lettering scheme, but with the monogram omitted. D. I agree with Ben that we need to recognize when a lettering scheme has been used on work equipment, and it happens I started using suffixes for this just as he did. Of course, I've already been beat up over terming these cars Maintenance of Way equipment, since that's apparently not the preferred PRR company terminology, so I didn't use the letters MoW (at least for long). Besides, using an MoW suffix doesn't tell us which color scheme the work equipment is in -- despite the well-known dates when freight car color gave way to gray, and gray gave way to chrome yellow, it's possible to find, say, PK lettering on all three. So I started classifying the not-quite-standard work equipment as follows: a. gray - like NK4gray b. yellow - like PKyello, except black roofed cars are PKyellk and silver roof cars are PKyells c. freight car color - like PKFCC (for stores department cars, those that also have the yellow 'S', I do see merit in using PK-S as Ben did, or maybe PKFCC-S). E. Once in a while, we will find a picture that conforms to no lettering standard. My practice here is to code simply with the letter 'V', indicating that the photo varies from all standard lettering schemes. Likewise, if the lettering is so obscured as to defy categorization, (or if not enough of the car is visible to tell) I just use the letter 'Z', meaning the correct code will remain missing. ******************************************** Rick Tipton Louisville KY ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/O3jeVD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:15:22 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] [PRR-Modeling] PRR Class X29 Lettering codes -- where Ben, Bill, and friends, Brady McGuire's 10 basic lettering schemes (as described in his 1988 article and my 2002 one) cover the bulk of cases on revenue freight cars very well. On the other hand, I've found plenty of photos where these standard codes don't tell the whole story. That this is particularly true in work equipment, it also crops up with passenger-lettered cars, and it can even be seen in revenue freight. Reasons/reasoning is as follows: 1. MOW equipment (which Al Buchan and others claim the PRR called work equipment) - was painted in Renovo and other places, and was not bound by standard "Lettering Arrangement Drawings". Remember that these cars do not have to conform to interchange standards, and may have door and window arrangements not found on the revenue equipment they're built from. Thus, they commonly omit much data found on interchange cars, arrange stencil elements in different places on the carbody, mix stencil elements from different eras, and often leave off the monogram or the PENNSYLVANIA name. Sometimes their lettering doesn't look like standard lettering phases at all. 2. Express boxcars (especially X29's) - these are freight cars equipped to travel in passenger service. Most were lettered consistently, but from observation, there were SK2b cars that economized by omitting the big PENNSYLVANIA above the reporting marks. And on some of these cars, it's tough to tell from a photo whether the keystone was once shadowed or not. 3. Revenue cars - especially after some time has passed, strange things can happen to a standard revenue paint scheme. When a car is partially re-lettere d to make the reporting marks legible, some of the older lettering scheme's elements may remain, providing a seemingly "hybrid" scheme. Sometimes only enough lettering is restored so the car number can be read. And (offroad), a car with deteriorated lettering may receive some oddball typeface known only at the faraway shop that did the re-mark. I'm going to beg for good judgement in how we interpret these schemes. A. My first plea is for a recognition that not all cars are in "standard" paint, and we will see paint schemes not conforming to a Lettering Arrangement Drawing. As a suggestion, I suggest we try to decide what standard scheme the odd scheme is based on, and code from it. For example, if an MoW car carries the PENNSYLVANIA and road number of PK, it's still basically that PK stencil set even if the plain (unshaded) keystone we expect is missing. Personally, I'm presently coding such a scheme as PKz, where PK tells me what standard lettering scheme was used, and z tells me the monogram is missing. For those X29 BX's in the Color Guide Volume 3 cited where the keystone is SK and reporting marks lettering is consistent with SK2b, I'm personally coding this IN MY OWN FILES as SK2bv, showing there is some variance from standard other than the absence of a monogram. B. Thus, I gently suggest that a letter code of SK2c is not what we want to do. What we really need is something that tells us this is recognizably SK2b, but something is off - like SK2bv (Shaded Keystone, 7" PRR and number, in "transition" type face, but with a variance). C. Likewise, I'd like to suggest that resorting to NK5 because a keystone is missing is undesirable. "NK" sets up an expectation that we are looking at pre-1930 lettering, characteristic of the railroad before a monogram was adopted for freight car markings. Instead, PKz tells us this is the standard 1961-68 lettering scheme, but with the monogram omitted. D. I agree with Ben that we need to recognize when a lettering scheme has been used on work equipment, and it happens I started using suffixes for this just as he did. Of course, I've already been beat up over terming these cars Maintenance of Way equipment, since that's apparently not the preferred PRR company terminology, so I didn't use the letters MoW (at least for long). Besides, using an MoW suffix doesn't tell us which color scheme the work equipment is in -- despite the well-known dates when freight car color gave way to gray, and gray gave way to chrome yellow, it's possible to find, say, PK lettering on all three. So I started classifying the not-quite-standard work equipment as follows: a. gray - like NK4gray b. yellow - like PKyello, except black roofed cars are PKyellk and silver roof cars are PKyells c. freight car color - like PKFCC (for stores department cars, those that also have the yellow 'S', I do see merit in using PK-S as Ben did, or maybe PKFCC-S). E. Once in a while, we will find a picture that conforms to no lettering standard. My practice here is to code simply with the letter 'V', indicating that the photo varies from all standard lettering schemes. Likewise, if the lettering is so obscured as to defy categorization, (or if not enough of the car is visible to tell) I just use the letter 'Z', meaning the correct code will remain missing. ******************************************** Rick Tipton Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:19:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] prr talk re: PA. R.R. Museum From: Beth Caples Does anyone on the list have good ties with the museum? I need to pass on some information to them about a possible aquisition! Reply off list please! Thanks in advance, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 06:34:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- prop In a message dated 7/18/02 9:34:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << Actually, the Panhandle just west of Pittsburgh doen't get flat until its well in Ohio. >> Right - the portion through Cambridge New Concorde and Zanesville (east of Columbus) is through the rugged, unglaciated portions of the Appalachian plateau... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago chapter Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:00:24 +0000 Is there anyone interested in pursuing the formation of a Chicago chapter of the PRRT&HS? We would have to get together and see if we could pull it off. Contact me offline if interested. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago chapter Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:08:16 +0000 Does anybody know if the natioanl org. has any guidelines about local chapters for us to start with? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:24:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago chapter From: Jerry Britton On 7/19/02 10:08 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Does anybody know if the natioanl org. has any > guidelines about local chapters for us to start with? I don't know if they are absolutely current or not -- thought the National has not publicly mentioned any changes -- but the Chapter By-Laws are available at http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com/nat_bylaws_chap.html This is on the Cyber Division web site. It was keyed by myself about three years ago from originals provided to me by the BoD of National. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Chicago chapter Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:54:24 -0400 www.PRRTHS.com contact them. I am sure they would gladly furbish you with guidelines. Good luck. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:24 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago chapter On 7/19/02 10:08 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Does anybody know if the natioanl org. has any > guidelines about local chapters for us to start with? I don't know if they are absolutely current or not -- thought the National has not publicly mentioned any changes -- but the Chapter By-Laws are available at http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com/nat_bylaws_chap.html This is on the Cyber Division web site. It was keyed by myself about three years ago from originals provided to me by the BoD of National. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:22:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Former PRR Buffalo Line to Close? From: Jerry Britton The press release below from the NS web site relates new trackage rights for NS from Sunbury into NY via the CP. What it doesn't say, that I have been told, is that the former PRR line from Sunbury to Buffalo -- including the run over Keating Summit -- will be shut down. Visit now, or your only opportunity may be on Ken McCorry's layout!!! -----(snip)---- Canadian Pacific Railway And Norfolk Southern Streamline Operations In Northeast U.S. CALGARY, AB and NORFOLK, VA -- Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) and Canadian Pacific Railway (NYSE/TSE: CP) today announced that CPR has granted Norfolk Southern Railway Company (NS) trackage rights between Sunbury, Pennsylvania and Mechanicville, New York. The granting of trackage rights is part of a continuing joint effort by both companies to improve freight service to upstate New York, northern Pennsylvania and New England. "This agreement is part of our mission to build strong strategic partnerships with North American railways that deliver value to customers and shareholders alike," said Fred Green, CPR's Senior Vice President of Marketing & Sales. "The agreement is in line with CPR's strategy to maximize the value of its network in the Northeastern U.S. by creating additional traffic density on our Delaware & Hudson (D&H) lines, which will aid in improving the financial performance of the D&H substantially." "This agreement further improves our competitive routes between New England and the Midwest and Southeast," said Jim McClellan, Norfolk Southern's senior vice president Strategic Planning. "We also gain a new, direct and efficient route between central New York state and points south." To accommodate the increase in traffic, a new passing siding will be constructed on CPR's D&H line at Clarks Summit, Pa. CPR, NS and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will jointly fund the $2 million project. Additionally, the new agreement modifies existing trackage and haulage agreements. The agreement expands on the successful partnership between NS and CPR in the Northeast. In 1998, NS and CPR completed a $12 million upgrade of the Sunbury Line between Sunbury and Scranton. In 2001, CPR and NS introduced a new intermodal service between the Port of New York/New Jersey, Montreal and Toronto. Canadian Pacific Railway is North America's first transcontinental railway, and is the only transcontinental carrier with direct service to the U.S. Eastern Seaboard. CPR's 14,000-mile network serves the principal centres of Canada, from Montreal to Vancouver, as well as the U.S. Midwest and Northeast regions, and links North America with Europe and the Pacific Rim. Alliances with other carriers extend CPR's market reach beyond its own network in the U.S., and into the major business centres of Mexico. For more information, visit CPR's website at www.cpr.ca. Norfolk Southern Corporation is a Virginia-based holding company with headquarters in Norfolk. It owns a major freight railroad, Norfolk Southern Railway Company, which operates approximately 21,500 route miles in 22 states, the District of Columbia and the province of Ontario. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago Chapter Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:06:50 +0000 According to the By-Laws in order to be a full fledged chapter we would need at least ten founding members. If you know of anyone who would be interested please e mail me. If we just want to have occasional get togethers that is a different story where we could just meet for field excursions to former PRR locations around Chicago or into Indiana. In either case, the more people who are interested the better chance we have of getting something started. The chapter status might be useful in getting permission from cuurent operating locations where we couldn't go as just railfans. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:12:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago Chapter From: Jerry Britton On 7/19/02 12:06 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > The chapter status might be useful > in getting permission from cuurent operating locations > where we couldn't go as just railfans. It would also lay the groundwork for a convention in Chicago in 10 years or so!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:24:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] does anyone make a caboose window kit or interior for the --part1_c9.255182a2.2a699722_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My Bowser cabooses needs help including glass for the windows! Any suggestions on kits? How about an interior to file in that empty space :)??? Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_c9.255182a2.2a699722_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My Bowser cabooses needs help including glass for the windows!  Any suggestions on kits? How about an interior to file in that empty space :)???

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_c9.255182a2.2a699722_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:34:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] does anyone make a caboose window kit or interior From: Jerry Britton On 7/19/02 12:24 PM, USMCnewdog25431@cs.com (USMCnewdog25431@cs.com) wrote: > My Bowser cabooses needs help including glass for the windows! Any > suggestions on kits? How about an interior to file in that empty space :)??? > Sit tight for a few weeks. Glass kits are coming from Bowser! (Although some other solutions are already available.) And for the N scale folks, if you missed it, trainphone kits are already available for the N5's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:53:20 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Caboose windows Mike and all, You didn't say which Caboose you need the windows for but American Model Builders have been available for a while and there are un-issued windows for the N-5 (modern) that I will do an artcile for that will be used or instruction sheets in the future release. They are acrylic and absolutely clear. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:40:58 -0400 From: shadow@dementia.org Subject: [PRR] more good news: HO Atlas H-15/16-44 Was announced on the Atlas Forum earlier They say PRR will be among the roads, and that it will be an earlier body style, so hopefully it will be a useful phase. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:17:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] does anyone make a caboose window kit or interior for --part1_ae.2a38a27d.2a69cddb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks! I will hangon then :) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_ae.2a38a27d.2a69cddb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks! I will hangon then :)

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_ae.2a38a27d.2a69cddb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Red Caboose Motel at Strasburg fined and closed again Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:41:59 -0400 Quoted from WGAL TV. "The Department of Environmental Protection has issued a second fine of $2,000 to the owners of the Red Caboose Motel. The DEP said the owners of the motel illegally reopened from July 5 to July 8. The DEP shut down the motel in June because it said the nitrate levels in the motel's drinking water were too high. The owners submitted a plan to fix the problems, but did not get approval before the motel reopened, according to the DEP. That plan is now void. A new plan has been submitted and now must go through a 30-day comment period." I suggest you don't make reservations to stay there when you visit the RR Museum of PA. Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:08:14 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Atlas H-15/16-44 Hey Yuze Gize... I wonder if they realize how many different body styles there were on these locomotives. Knowing ATLAS I will have to cobb it up to get it right for the PRR units... Like I am having to do with their RS-1... What a nightmare! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] more good news: HO Atlas H-15/16-44 Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:14:35 -0700 Derrick and all; It will be interesting to see how Atlas handles this. I just had a chat about these units, when this announcement came out. Although PRR had only 10 of these, they are way cool, and many roads had them. They also operated out of Altoona on mineral runs (like out of Cresson) for most of their lives, so Mid Div/Horseshoe/East slope guys should be drooling. The PRR units were the early "Loewy-body" style, which Atlas states it is doing, and which is also infinitely better looking than the incorrectly-termed "Baby Trainmaster" late model H-16-44's. The PRR units did not have the semi-round peripheral cab side windows that earlier ones had, and did have the FM truck design, rather than the earlier-equipped AAR "B". Plus, the PRR units had a handrail along the side of the hood rather than along the side sill, and the short hood headlight mounted differently from most other roads. I would expect we will have to make some modifications to make them PRR-like. However, I really hope they offer both cab versions, as correcting that would be a BIG pain. There was an H-16-44 (8813?, 8815?) that operated at Pitcairn in the mid-60's in a late diesel paint scheme doing trimming work (see, we connected with that switcher topic!). It was REALLY neat looking, with a yellow painted emergency brake assembly. I think I now will get that guy on my roster after all these years. Obviously, this is great news! Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] Former PRR Buffalo Line to Close? Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 19:45:52 -0400 Trains Magazine's note on this suggested that the Sunbury--Buffalo line (or most of it) would continue to host local traffic. Keating Summit, however, may see no more trains (the Tr ains piece noted that Keating was the steepest grade on Conrail). -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:23 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Former PRR Buffalo Line to Close? The press release below from the NS web site relates new trackage rights for NS from Sunbury into NY via the CP. What it doesn't say, that I have been told, is that the former PRR line from Sunbury to Buffalo -- including the run over Keating Summit -- will be shut down. Visit now, or your only opportunity may be on Ken McCorry's layout!!! -----(snip)---- Canadian Pacific Railway And Norfolk Southern Streamline Operations In Northeast U.S. CALGARY, AB and NORFOLK, VA -- Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) and Canadian Pacific Railway (NYSE/TSE: CP) today announced that CPR has granted Norfolk Southern Railway Company (NS) trackage rights between Sunbury, Pennsylvania and Mechanicville, New York. The granting of trackage rights is part of a continuing joint effort by both companies to improve freight service to upstate New York, northern Pennsylvania and New England. "This agreement is part of our mission to build strong strategic partnerships with North American railways that deliver value to customers and shareholders alike," said Fred Green, CPR's Senior Vice President of Marketing & Sales. "The agreement is in line with CPR's strategy to maximize the value of its network in the Northeastern U.S. by creating additional traffic density on our Delaware & Hudson (D&H) lines, which will aid in improving the financial performance of the D&H substantially." "This agreement further improves our competitive routes between New England and the Midwest and Southeast," said Jim McClellan, Norfolk Southern's senior vice president Strategic Planning. "We also gain a new, direct and efficient route between central New York state and points south." To accommodate the increase in traffic, a new passing siding will be constructed on CPR's D&H line at Clarks Summit, Pa. CPR, NS and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will jointly fund the $2 million project. Additionally, the new agreement modifies existing trackage and haulage agreements. The agreement expands on the successful partnership between NS and CPR in the Northeast. In 1998, NS and CPR completed a $12 million upgrade of the Sunbury Line between Sunbury and Scranton. In 2001, CPR and NS introduced a new intermodal service between the Port of New York/New Jersey, Montreal and Toronto. Canadian Pacific Railway is North America's first transcontinental railway, and is the only transcontinental carrier with direct service to the U.S. Eastern Seaboard. CPR's 14,000-mile network serves the principal centres of Canada, from Montreal to Vancouver, as well as the U.S. Midwest and Northeast regions, and links North America with Europe and the Pacific Rim. Alliances with other carriers extend CPR's market reach beyond its own network in the U.S., and into the major business centres of Mexico. For more information, visit CPR's website at www.cpr.ca. Norfolk Southern Corporation is a Virginia-based holding company with headquarters in Norfolk. It owns a major freight railroad, Norfolk Southern Railway Company, which operates approximately 21,500 route miles in 22 states, the District of Columbia and the province of Ontario. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Former PRR Buffalo Line to Close? Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:50:03 -0400 How steep is Keating Summit grade? Northbound and Southbound averages? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Keith Pomroy Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 7:46 PM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Former PRR Buffalo Line to Close? Trains Magazine's note on this suggested that the Sunbury--Buffalo line (or most of it) would continue to host local traffic. Keating Summit, however, may see no more trains (the Tr ains piece noted that Keating was the steepest grade on Conrail). -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 11:23 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Former PRR Buffalo Line to Close? The press release below from the NS web site relates new trackage rights for NS from Sunbury into NY via the CP. What it doesn't say, that I have been told, is that the former PRR line from Sunbury to Buffalo -- including the run over Keating Summit -- will be shut down. Visit now, or your only opportunity may be on Ken McCorry's layout!!! -----(snip)---- Canadian Pacific Railway And Norfolk Southern Streamline Operations In Northeast U.S. CALGARY, AB and NORFOLK, VA -- Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) and Canadian Pacific Railway (NYSE/TSE: CP) today announced that CPR has granted Norfolk Southern Railway Company (NS) trackage rights between Sunbury, Pennsylvania and Mechanicville, New York. The granting of trackage rights is part of a continuing joint effort by both companies to improve freight service to upstate New York, northern Pennsylvania and New England. "This agreement is part of our mission to build strong strategic partnerships with North American railways that deliver value to customers and shareholders alike," said Fred Green, CPR's Senior Vice President of Marketing & Sales. "The agreement is in line with CPR's strategy to maximize the value of its network in the Northeastern U.S. by creating additional traffic density on our Delaware & Hudson (D&H) lines, which will aid in improving the financial performance of the D&H substantially." "This agreement further improves our competitive routes between New England and the Midwest and Southeast," said Jim McClellan, Norfolk Southern's senior vice president Strategic Planning. "We also gain a new, direct and efficient route between central New York state and points south." To accommodate the increase in traffic, a new passing siding will be constructed on CPR's D&H line at Clarks Summit, Pa. CPR, NS and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will jointly fund the $2 million project. Additionally, the new agreement modifies existing trackage and haulage agreements. The agreement expands on the successful partnership between NS and CPR in the Northeast. In 1998, NS and CPR completed a $12 million upgrade of the Sunbury Line between Sunbury and Scranton. In 2001, CPR and NS introduced a new intermodal service between the Port of New York/New Jersey, Montreal and Toronto. Canadian Pacific Railway is North America's first transcontinental railway, and is the only transcontinental carrier with direct service to the U.S. Eastern Seaboard. CPR's 14,000-mile network serves the principal centres of Canada, from Montreal to Vancouver, as well as the U.S. Midwest and Northeast regions, and links North America with Europe and the Pacific Rim. Alliances with other carriers extend CPR's market reach beyond its own network in the U.S., and into the major business centres of Mexico. For more information, visit CPR's website at www.cpr.ca. Norfolk Southern Corporation is a Virginia-based holding company with headquarters in Norfolk. It owns a major freight railroad, Norfolk Southern Railway Company, which operates approximately 21,500 route miles in 22 states, the District of Columbia and the province of Ontario. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:10:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Keating Summit gradient I don't have a track chart for that line. Looked up the area at www.topozone.com. Quick and dirty measurement on the topographic map says last 1.6 miles approaching the summit northbound is 2.13%. Southbound the last mile at the summit appears to be 1.3% If someone else has better figures, believe him. It's hard to measure distances accurately on the screen. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:39:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Topography of the Panhandle in Ohio --part1_a6.295b0c8a.2a6a438a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/19/02 1:13:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- prop > osed Buckeye Division in 2-3 le... > From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" > Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:22:54 -0500 > > Actually, the Panhandle just west of Pittsburgh doen't get flat until its > well in Ohio. > Quite right. Actually, the Panhandle Division was pretty much a mountain railroad from Pittsburgh (up the gulch at Collier), across western PA and the pan handle of West Virginia, across the Ohio River at Weirton/Steubenville, then up into the hills again at Mingo Jct/Gould's Hollow. By the time the railroad comes back down to a decent watercourse around Jewett OH, it had passed through 10 tunnels and tested the tractive effort of PRR's heaviest power in each period. OTOH, it carried enough traffic in its day to be double track. Post WW2, even with diesel power's low speed tractive effort, the Pennsy saw fit to rebuild big chunks of the Panhandle Div in eastern Ohio, lowering grades and daylighting tunnels. West of Dennison (once a division point and about halfway from Pittsburgh to Columbus), the main line mostly played with easy grades in the Tuscarawas and Muskingum River drainages to get west to the part of central Ohio scraped flat by glaciers. This flat runs west almost to Xenia, but is punctuated by long fairly easy grades down to the Scioto River (Columbus) and back up. Out of Xenia, things get interesting again. Of course, the Springfield Branch goes north out of Xenia, across glacial land that's relatively flat. The St. Louis main goes up a creek toward Dayton, racking up grades as high as 1.6% (once 2%). From Xenia southwest to Cincinnati (still railroad west), the single track main follows the Little Miami River down a broad valley and south beyond the limits of Ohio's glaciation. It continues down through the Little Miami's narrow canyon at I-71/Fort Ancient, and down between high bluffs to the Ohio River and Cincinnati. This southern part of the PRR's Cincinnati line, built circa 1843 as the Little Miami Railroad, enjoys water level gradients (no major falls on the river, even), but the land rises around it majestically, and at first glance it would make a terrific theme for a model railroad. It's historic, and there are structures along the way of all ages, all the way back to the settlement of this part of Ohio. Alas, by 1966-68 the traffic density is low, the local industries are mostly gone, and in any case the PRR terminal facilities in Cincinnati are strung like beads for miles up and down the Ohio River and two of its tributaries -- not an encouraging theme for a model railroader who likes high traffic density and lots of local switching. I suppose this explains why I'm picking on the flat land between Columbus and Xenia -- more ag industries to model, more trains per day, and monster interchange opportunities at Columbus (N&W, NYC, B&O, C&O). It also offers switching of passenger trains at Columbus Union Station. I realize it's not completely sane (Columbus may be compact, but it's too big to model), but at least it's logical. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_a6.295b0c8a.2a6a438a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/19/02 1:13:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: RE: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- prop    osed  Buckeye Division in 2-3 le...
From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" <cadwelml@bp.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 08:22:54 -0500

Actually, the Panhandle just west of Pittsburgh doen't get flat until its
well in Ohio.


Quite right.  Actually, the Panhandle Division was pretty much a mountain railroad from Pittsburgh (up the gulch at Collier), across western PA and the pan handle of West Virginia, across the Ohio River at Weirton/Steubenville, then up into the hills again at Mingo Jct/Gould's Hollow.  By the time the railroad comes back down to a decent watercourse around Jewett OH, it had passed through 10 tunnels and tested the tractive effort of PRR's heaviest power in each period.  OTOH, it carried enough traffic in its day to be double track.

Post WW2, even with diesel power's low speed tractive effort, the Pennsy saw fit to rebuild big chunks of the Panhandle Div in eastern Ohio, lowering grades and daylighting tunnels.

West of Dennison (once a division point and about halfway from Pittsburgh to Columbus), the main line mostly played with easy grades in the Tuscarawas and Muskingum River drainages to get west to the part of central Ohio scraped flat by glaciers.  This flat runs west almost to Xenia, but is punctuated by long fairly easy grades down to the Scioto River (Columbus) and back up.

Out of Xenia, things get interesting again.  Of course, the Springfield Branch goes north out of Xenia, across glacial land that's relatively flat.  The St. Louis main goes up a creek toward Dayton, racking up grades as high as 1.6% (once 2%).  From Xenia southwest to Cincinnati (still railroad west), the single track main follows the Little Miami River down a broad valley and south beyond the limits of Ohio's glaciation.  It continues down through the Little Miami's narrow canyon at  I-71/Fort Ancient, and down between high bluffs to the Ohio River and Cincinnati. 

This southern part of the PRR's Cincinnati line, built circa 1843 as the Little Miami Railroad, enjoys water level gradients (no major falls on the river, even), but the land rises around it majestically, and at first glance it would make a terrific theme for a model railroad.  It's historic, and there are structures along the way of all ages, all the way back to the settlement of this part of Ohio.  Alas, by 1966-68 the traffic density is low, the local industries are mostly gone, and in any case the PRR terminal facilities in Cincinnati are strung like beads for miles up and down the Ohio River and two of its tributaries -- not an encouraging theme for a model railroader who likes high traffic density and lots of local switching.

I suppose this explains why I'm picking on the flat land between Columbus and Xenia -- more ag industries to model, more trains per day, and monster interchange opportunities at Columbus (N&W, NYC, B&O, C&O).  It also offers switching of passenger trains at Columbus Union Station.  I realize it's not completely sane (Columbus may be compact, but it's too big to model), but at least it's logical.



                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_a6.295b0c8a.2a6a438a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:39:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout design considerations -- proposed Buckeye --part1_8c.1b4e64b7.2a6a4396_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/18/02 7:49:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > On 7/18/02 7:39 AM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > > > First of all, I can't say that I feel multiple-deck layouts to be > uniformly > > disappointing -- only that I'm inclined to applaud conservative planning. > A > > key fact on this part of the Pennsy Lines West is that, after you climb > out of > > the river valley at Columbus, the prototype grades are very low, which > doesnt' > > really justify the continuously rising spiral around the room. > > > It is unfair to lump "multi level layouts" with "continuously rising spiral > around the room". One does not require the other. Though a "continuously > rising spiral around the room" is one method of getting trains from one > level to another, so is a helix. I apologize for writing what I now realize may have been confusing. Let me try to straighten it out: 1. My "middle risk" plan involves spiraling around the room (up to the left or "west"), and is based on the prototype's 0.7 % gradient rising from the station at Columbus. I get a lot of encouragement in this plan because members of my work group like the idea of spiraling the room instead of helixing. > > My layout uses both techniques. A helix takes trains from staging to the > main level. From there a "continuously rising spiral around the room" takes > trains up another 10" where they enter a second helix to the top level. Yet > a third helix returns trains all the way back to the bottom at the opposite > end of staging. The first and second helixes are vertically stacked. 2, I have sketched a "radical plan" with a double track helix "stairway to heaven" that runs trains up from underlying staging to a first visible level, then on up to a very high upper deck, then back down to staging. To keep the grade down, the helix is a long oval instead of a circle, and would eat an incredible amount of real estate with my wide (44" mainline radius). Despite some attractive possibilities, I dislike this plan because of: a. long hidden runs b. less space for open scenery c. poor options for building and operating the layout in many phases, a top priority in my book. > > Having two helixes is typically only practical in N scale due to the > footprint required. And there are those who would say that one 8 foot wide helix is too big in HO. Yet I'm still condemned to two "peninsula ends" that will be this size in order to have a walkin plan. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_8c.1b4e64b7.2a6a4396_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/18/02 7:49:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


On 7/18/02 7:39 AM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote:

> First of all, I can't say that I feel multiple-deck layouts to be uniformly
> disappointing -- only that I'm inclined to applaud conservative planning.  A
> key fact on this part of the Pennsy Lines West is that, after you climb out of
> the river valley at Columbus, the prototype grades are very low, which doesnt'
> really justify the continuously rising spiral around the room.
>
It is unfair to lump "multi level layouts" with "continuously rising spiral
around the room". One does not require the other. Though a "continuously
rising spiral around the room" is one method of getting trains from one
level to another, so is a helix.



I apologize for writing what I now realize may have been confusing.  Let me try to straighten it out:

1. My "middle risk" plan involves spiraling around the room (up to the left or "west"), and is based on the prototype's 0.7 % gradient rising from the station at Columbus.  I get a lot of encouragement in this plan because members of my work group like the idea of spiraling the room instead of helixing.

My layout uses both techniques. A helix takes trains from staging to the
main level. From there a "continuously rising spiral around the room" takes
trains up another 10" where they enter a second helix to the top level. Yet
a third helix returns trains all the way back to the bottom at the opposite
end of staging. The first and second helixes are vertically stacked.



2,  I have sketched a "radical plan" with a double track helix "stairway to heaven" that runs trains up from underlying staging to a first visible level, then on up to a very high upper deck, then back down to staging.  To keep the grade down, the helix is a long oval instead of a circle, and would eat an incredible amount of real estate with my wide (44" mainline radius).  Despite some attractive possibilities, I dislike this plan because of:
a. long hidden runs
b. less space for open scenery
c.  poor options for building and operating the layout in many phases, a top priority in my book.



Having two helixes is typically only practical in N scale due to the
footprint required.


And there are those who would say that one 8 foot wide helix is too big in HO.  Yet I'm still condemned to two "peninsula ends" that will be this size in order to have a walkin plan.


Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_8c.1b4e64b7.2a6a4396_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:06:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Sharks I was actually relatively happy until you guys started this thread :-). In looking at my Model Power (and I think the E-R is the same) I now believe they are neither fish nor fowl. The Model Power unit has the cab one foot longer (and hence nose a little shorter) than the RF15. This was done in the prototype RF15a and RF16 to increase the space for access to the internal electrical cabinets. The MP unit has the screens of the RF15a and RF16 instead of the louvers of the RF15. The MP unit has the wider fabricated frame of the RF15a and RF16 instead of the cast frame of the RF15. So far so good: these are features common to both the RF15a and RF16. However, the MP unit has three side cab windows common to the RF15 and RF15a instead of the four windows of the RF16. The MP unit has the tall nose door of the RF16 instead of the shorter one of the RF15 and RF15a. In other words it is either an RF15a with an RF16 nose door or an RF16 with the window arrangement of the RF15a. However, as I look at the model,the thing which actually bothers me more are the clunky cast-on ladder rungs which ruin the smooth sharknose effect. Yeah, I can eliminate them, but at the expense of stripping and repainting again. I have not commented on other features including airhorn number and placement as I have changed mine long ago and don't even remember what the original arrangements were. And to add insult to injury, NWSL has a 14 tooth and 10 tooth gear arrangement for replacement wheelsets and two of my models that I have checked so far have 11 teeth. Oh, well, as these freight diesels are a Pennsy trademark, I know what I will be working on after my steam construction backlog. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:09:20 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] Re:Sharks Bob and All, Your post struck a memory cord, so I went thru my library and found the June 2000 issue of "Model Railroader", which contains an article by Kris Kollar on modifying/redetailing said loco into a BF15. Not only does he address some of the short comings you discovered (the taller nose door and frame) but he also "corrects" issues with the sand hatch, fuel filler and trucks. Personally, I'll be using Herr Kollar's article to get my stable of Sharks up to snuff.(someday) Take care, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 06:20:48 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] Boxcar classification ok guys, On one of our sojurns, my son bought a "Front Range" 40' ACL welded boxcar with a 6' door. In glancing over the instructions I found that the Pennsy had 1500 of these cars. Before I do the dirty deed of stripping his car, I would like to know if the Pennsy did have this car, and if so what class was it, when was it delivered, where might there be diagrams (both constructing and lettering). In short dad wants to "Pennsy-ize" it. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Sharks Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 09:47:58 -0400 Keyword: Backlog. we all say we are going to finish off our plate before taking more, but how many actually follow their philosophy. At a club meeting 2 months ago I said I was not going to spend a dime because I was fed up with multiple un-finished projects. You might have thought Rodney Dangerfield was at the meeting! Now, a couple months later, my plate just doubled. Good luck Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 2:07 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Sharks I was actually relatively happy until you guys started this thread :-). In looking at my Model Power (and I think the E-R is the same) I now believe they are neither fish nor fowl. The Model Power unit has the cab one foot longer (and hence nose a little shorter) than the RF15. This was done in the prototype RF15a and RF16 to increase the space for access to the internal electrical cabinets. The MP unit has the screens of the RF15a and RF16 instead of the louvers of the RF15. The MP unit has the wider fabricated frame of the RF15a and RF16 instead of the cast frame of the RF15. So far so good: these are features common to both the RF15a and RF16. However, the MP unit has three side cab windows common to the RF15 and RF15a instead of the four windows of the RF16. The MP unit has the tall nose door of the RF16 instead of the shorter one of the RF15 and RF15a. In other words it is either an RF15a with an RF16 nose door or an RF16 with the window arrangement of the RF15a. However, as I look at the model,the thing which actually bothers me more are the clunky cast-on ladder rungs which ruin the smooth sharknose effect. Yeah, I can eliminate them, but at the expense of stripping and repainting again. I have not commented on other features including airhorn number and placement as I have changed mine long ago and don't even remember what the original arrangements were. And to add insult to injury, NWSL has a 14 tooth and 10 tooth gear arrangement for replacement wheelsets and two of my models that I have checked so far have 11 teeth. Oh, well, as these freight diesels are a Pennsy trademark, I know what I will be working on after my steam construction backlog. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boxcar classification Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 10:20:33 -0500 Hi Walt--Don't do it. Pennsy's 40' welded cars had 7' doors, class X43A. I made the same mistake when that model first came out. I still have it and it is a good model, just not right. It is on my list to be replaced with an accurate Branchline model. To find out what roads did have the welded car with 6' door, try http://www.steamfreightcars.com/ Scroll down in the "What's New" area until you see "Postwar AAR Box Car Roster". Ed Hawkins has put together a marvelous resource. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 11:31:54 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] Box car classification Steve, Thanks for the tip. After going to the site you recommended, I believe I will opt for the P&WV as I will need a few representatives of that road on my layout. Like you I will go with the Branchline model. Thanks, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Life-Like USRA 0-6-0 Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 15:45:10 -0400

For those who, like me, are curious as to how these engines are going to look, there is now a couple on ebay with pictures. I would like to know what the list thinks of them. From what I can tell, they look very accurate. Also, check out the paint job DLGE and red roof and tender deck. It even looks like they got the generator in the right spot and the tender correct.
Eric
PS: Has any one heard any Pennsy related news from the NMRA convention.
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 19:31:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Is there a list of mile posts for the Middle Division of the PRR anywhere on the web? also How and from what point were they calculated? Philadelphia or Harrisburg? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 20:04:20 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR --- Michael DiMaio wrote: > Is there a list of mile posts for the Middle Division of the PRR > anywhere on the web? also How and from what point were they > calculated? Philadelphia or Harrisburg? Don't know about a list. Don't be misled by the CT1000. The mileages shown there are not mile post numbers. I believe the mile posts on the main line are numbered consecutively from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. For sure, mileposts out around Latrobe (about 40 miles east of Pittsburgh) are 307, 308, etc., as one goes westward. There was a hair-splitting discussion on another group about where the zero mile post was. One school held that it was the end-of-track in the old Broad Street Station. Another school held that it was either in the middle of Broad Street or perhaps on the eastern curb-line. A third school argued that it was at the location of a long-gone station of the Philadelphia and Columbia RR on a site somewhat east of Broad Street. I don't know how it turned out, I got bored and left. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:18:34 -0400 Subject: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR In Triumph 4, Duncannon is at MP 14.7 which surprised me.. it looks like if Messer is rite, that mp went by division. or at least messer by implication implies that ------- Forwarded message follows ------- From: Michael DiMaio To: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Send reply to: mdimaio@ids.net Date sent: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:14:27 -0400 In Triumph 4, Duncannon is at MP 14.7 which surprised me.. it looks like if Messer is rite, that mp went by division. or at least messer by implication implies that On 20 Jul 2002 at 20:04, robert netzlof wrote: > --- Michael DiMaio wrote: > > Is there a list of mile posts for the Middle Division of the PRR > > anywhere on the web? also How and from what point were they > > calculated? Philadelphia or Harrisburg? > > Don't know about a list. Don't be misled by the CT1000. The mileages > shown there are not mile post numbers. > > I believe the mile posts on the main line are numbered consecutively > from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. For sure, mileposts out around > Latrobe (about 40 miles east of Pittsburgh) are 307, 308, etc., as > one goes westward. > > There was a hair-splitting discussion on another group about where > the zero mile post was. > > One school held that it was the end-of-track in the old Broad Street > Station. > > Another school held that it was either in the middle of Broad Street > or perhaps on the eastern curb-line. > > A third school argued that it was at the location of a long-gone > station of the Philadelphia and Columbia RR on a site somewhat east > of Broad Street. > > I don't know how it turned out, I got bored and left. > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > http://health.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------- End of forwarded message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR That thread about "Mile Post-"0" went on for about a month on that other list. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 23:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR The Middle Div. starts at MP 113 (From Broad Street Sta.) Info from 1950 PRR Track Charts and 1953 Middle Div. Interlocking Chart. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 01:16:20 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Hi All, zootowerprr wrote: > The Middle Div. starts at MP 113 (From Broad Street Sta.) Info > from 1950 PRR Track Charts and 1953 Middle Div. Interlocking Chart. And ends, if I read it correctly, at MP 237.3 (just west of Slope Tower in Altoona) on my Dec. 31, 1953 Pittsburgh Division Track Chart, no. 9756. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 04:30:56 -0400 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Interesting. Are these charts availabe in some format for the serious scholar? Are these charts availible on the web? On 20 Jul 2002 at 23:48, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > The Middle Div. starts at MP 113 (From Broad Street Sta.) Info > from 1950 PRR Track Charts and 1953 Middle Div. Interlocking Chart. > Dave > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 04:36:40 -0400 Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Ok where exactly is MP 113? On 21 Jul 2002 at 1:16, Ron Dugas wrote: > Hi All, > > zootowerprr wrote: > > > The Middle Div. starts at MP 113 (From Broad Street Sta.) Info > > from 1950 PRR Track Charts and 1953 Middle Div. Interlocking Chart. > > And ends, if I read it correctly, at MP 237.3 (just west of Slope Tower > in Altoona) on my Dec. 31, 1953 Pittsburgh Division Track Chart, no. 9756. > > Respectfully, Ron. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 04:46:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, Michael DiMaio wrote: > Interesting. Are these charts availabe in some format for the > serious scholar? Are these charts availible on the web? I have at least one in my "to be scanned" pile, but I won't promise when. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 01:56:42 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Hi Michael, Sorry. Dave (zootowerprr) or someone else will have to pick up on that end of the Middle Division. I have only Pittsburgh Division resources. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 02:24:29 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Hi again, Michael, You might want to check around at Mark Bej's site: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/index.html He doesn't have a lot of middle division charts up yet but still some interesting stuff that will give you an idea of what he is trying to get online. Mainly interlocking diagrams at this point. I don't think anyone really has much in the way of track charts online yet for any division. There are a couple of list members who are working on it but these are rather big projects to tackle in one's spare time and there is so much info to get up that it does take a considerable time investment. Respectfully again, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 05:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [PRR] Mile posts and the Middle Division of the PRR Hi All.... MP. 113 is just west of Marysville Pa. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 11:27:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR TALK RE: thanks From: Beth Caples Thanks to all of you who answered my Question concerning the "Milepost" bulletin. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:27:26 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color Looking at Atlas's recent release of the SD35 and a early Kato release of the SD40, I notice that the SD35 has a white background for the applied Keystones, the SD40 the Dulux Gold (buff) background. Also the SD40 has cab numbers in Dulux Gold, the SD35 in bright yellow. I don't have any good close photos of the units but the pictures in the various books (Pennsy Diesel Years, I Remember Pennsy, Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s - 1950s)appear to be with a dulux gold background. The article by Jim Six on the detailing the PRR / PC SD40 in the 9/63 issue of Model Railroading appears to show the Keystones with a white backing. Could someone with more resources please relate if there was a timeframe when the keystone background color was being phased from dulux gold to white or were they used interchangeably. Also, was the cab numbering always in dulux gold or was there also a transition time from dulux gold to bright yellow(if it was ever used)? Thanks for any assistance. __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:36:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 bearcreekwest@netscape.net wrote: > Looking at Atlas's recent release of the SD35 and a early Kato release > of the SD40, I notice that the SD35 has a white background for the > applied Keystones, the SD40 the Dulux Gold (buff) background. Also the Don't even bother with Kato's paint as accurate. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:10:34 -0400 Someone else will have to supply the exact date, but around 1960, concurtrent with dropping the shadow keystone on cars along with the spelled out "Pennsylvania" on both cars and locomotives, the keystones on locomotives changed from a dulux background to a white background and the numbers went from the steam locomotive styled "notched" numbers in dulux to larger, simpler styled numbers in yellow. The change in GM motive power began with the delivery of the GP30's, so both SD35's and SD40's should have the red and white keystones and large yellow numerals (and of course no "Pennsylvania"). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 1:27 PM Subject: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color > Looking at Atlas's recent release of the SD35 and a early Kato release of the SD40, I notice that the SD35 has a white background for the applied Keystones, the SD40 the Dulux Gold (buff) background. Also the SD40 has cab numbers in Dulux Gold, the SD35 in bright yellow. I don't have any good close photos of the units but the pictures in the various books (Pennsy Diesel Years, I Remember Pennsy, Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s - 1950s)appear to be with a dulux gold background. The article by Jim Six on the detailing the PRR / PC SD40 in the 9/63 issue of Model Railroading appears to show the Keystones with a white backing. Could someone with more resources please relate if there was a timeframe when the keystone background color was being phased from dulux gold to white or were they used interchangeably. Also, was the cab numbering always in dulux gold or was there also a transition time from dulux gold to bright yellow(if it was ever used)? Thanks for any assistance. > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:16:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited re-equipping question --part1_104.18dadccd.2a6c5462_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The last re-equipping of the PRR Broadway Limited occurred in the late 1940's. According to all of the equipment books I have, the assigned cars were delivered over the course of 2-3 years (something like 1947-49). My question is: did the Pennsy place the new cars in service on the Broadway as they were delivered or did they hold them back until a full trainset of new cars was available to completely re-launch the Broadway? What I'm trying to discover is whether or not there was a number of months when trains 28 & 29 were made up of a mixture of prewar and postwar equipment. Thanks, Chris --part1_104.18dadccd.2a6c5462_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The last re-equipping of the PRR Broadway Limited occurred in the late 1940's. According to all of the equipment books I have, the assigned cars were delivered over the course of 2-3 years (something like 1947-49).

My question is: did the Pennsy place the new cars in service on the Broadway as they were delivered or did they hold them back until a full trainset of new cars was available to completely re-launch the Broadway? What I'm trying to discover is whether or not there was a number of months when trains 28 & 29 were made up of a mixture of prewar and postwar equipment.

Thanks,
Chris



 --part1_104.18dadccd.2a6c5462_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] L-1s #3590 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 13:59:22 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C230BE.D11307C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR-Listers: I am tracking down the history of L-1s #3590. I know of one photo of this= engine: the June 1981 edition of "The Keystone" on page 47. The engine i= s pulling a northbound troop train on the South Bend branch in Plymouth, = Indiana in 1948. =20 Generally speaking, L-1's were rare in Lines West territories. Both M and= N class engines were the more typical freight engine west of Pittsburgh.= However, the wartime demands of WW 2 brought many L-1s out across the Pe= nnsylvania system including Lines West. Does anyone know of other photos (published or not) of 3590? Does anyone = know of the typical assignments of this engine especially in the 1940's? Speaking of engine assignments, I looked in the MP 229 from 11/1/44 and I= could not find 3590. What would be the reasons for this? It does not see= m likely that engines would be in storage during WW 2. Is it possible tha= t the L-1's (number 3590 in 1948) was actually another number in earlier = years and was assigned a new number as other classes were retired or re-n= umbered? It seems questionable that the Pennsy would go through the troub= le of re-numbering engines in the late 1940's when many classes, includin= g L-1's, were being dropped from the roster in 1948-1950. =20 Thank you in advance for any information the you can provide me. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C230BE.D11307C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR-Listers:
 
I am tracking down the history of L-1s #3590.= I know of one photo of this engine: the June 1981 edition of "The Keysto= ne" on page 47. The engine is pulling a northbound troop train on the Sou= th Bend branch in Plymouth, Indiana in 1948.
 
Generally speaking, L-1's were rare in Lines West territories.&nbs= p;Both M and N class engines were the more typical freight engine we= st of Pittsburgh. However, the wartime demands of WW 2 brought = many L-1s out across the Pennsylvania system including Lines We= st.
 
Does anyone know of other photos (p= ublished or not) of 3590? Does anyone know of the typical assignments of = this engine especially in the 1940's?
 
S= peaking of engine assignments, I looked in the MP 229 from 11/1/44 a= nd I could not find 3590. What would be the reasons for this? It does not= seem likely that engines would be in storage during WW 2. Is it possible= that the L-1's (number 3590 in 1948) was actually another number in earl= ier years and was assigned a new number as other classes were retired or = re-numbered? It seems questionable that the Pennsy would go through the t= rouble of re-numbering engines in the late 1940's when many classes,= including L-1's, were being dropped from the roster in 1948-1950.
=
 
Thank you in advance for any information the you = can provide me.
 
 
Ted Andrew= s
Carmel, Indiana

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C230BE.D11307C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 15:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] L-1s #3590 Ted, My July 1st 1943 MP 229 lists 3590 working the New York Region, New York Division. I will look in my photos to see if I can come up with another pic. If I do it will most likely be from the 1930's.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 15:35:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Special Instructions - Braking (99-C-1) --part1_c5.2618fda9.2a6c66e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/20/02 1:05:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Keating Summit gradient > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:10:36 -0700 (PDT) > > I don't have a track chart for that line. > > Looked up the area at www.topozone.com. Quick and dirty measurement > on the topographic map says last 1.6 miles approaching the summit > northbound is 2.13%. > > Southbound the last mile at the summit appears to be 1.3% > > If someone else has better figures, believe him. It's hard to measure > distances accurately on the screen. > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > The Keating Summit grade had special instructions that were printed in a PRR braaking instruction booklet No. 99-C-1 (we sold a 1944 copy awhile back). This booklet covered the six worst grade situations on the Pennsy (Horseshoe Curve and Madison Hill were two of the others), and for each went deep into operating and also maintenance instructions peculiar to these grades. Wish I could remember more particulars about Keating Summit in the book. But it made interesting reading, and went much farther than timetable instructions. For example, Madison Hill gets about a page and a third in an ETT. But in this book, Madison Hill got more than five pages. I believe the other grades were likewise examined in great detail. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_c5.2618fda9.2a6c66e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/20/02 1:05:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Keating Summit gradient
From: "robert netzlof" <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:10:36 -0700 (PDT)

I don't have a track chart for that line.

Looked up the area at www.topozone.com. Quick and dirty measurement
on the topographic map says last 1.6 miles approaching the summit
northbound is 2.13%.

Southbound the last mile at the summit appears to be 1.3%

If someone else has better figures, believe him. It's hard to measure
distances accurately on the screen.


=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


The Keating Summit grade had special instructions that were printed in a PRR braaking instruction booklet No. 99-C-1 (we sold a 1944 copy awhile back).  This booklet covered the six worst grade situations on the Pennsy (Horseshoe Curve and Madison Hill were two of the others), and for each went deep into operating and also maintenance instructions peculiar to these grades.

Wish I could remember more particulars about Keating Summit in the book.  But it made interesting reading, and went much farther than timetable instructions.  For example, Madison Hill gets about a page and a third in an ETT.  But in this book, Madison Hill got more than five pages.  I believe the other grades were likewise examined in great detail.


Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_c5.2618fda9.2a6c66e8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 16:10:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited re-equipping question In a message dated 7/21/02 1:24:47 PM Central Daylight Time, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com writes: << My question is: did the Pennsy place the new cars in service on the Broadway as they were delivered or did they hold them back until a full trainset of new cars was available to completely re-launch the Broadway? What I'm trying to discover is whether or not there was a number of months when trains 28 & 29 were made up of a mixture of prewar and postwar equipment. >> As evidenced in several videos, the cars were phased in gradually. In one video the front of the train had newer sleepers and the last 5 cars or so were 1938 cars in Fleet of Modernism colors. Tower View and Mountain View observations weren't delivered until about February 1949. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] looking for a photo of a PRR H-15/16-44 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 19:09:01 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C230EA.12E58F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike: Check out "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume 5 Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives" by Paul K. Withers. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 5:41 PM To: PRR-CandA-Division@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] looking for a photo of a PRR H-15/16-44 List, With altas's announcement of a H-15/16-44 possibly in PRR I am looking for some photos! Anyone have any links or any to scan? I am sure i am not the only one looking for these :) thanks in advance, Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C230EA.12E58F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mike:

Ch= eck out “Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume 5 Fairbanks-Morse = Locomotives” by Paul K. Withers.

 

Cos

=

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

=

Small = business IT services.

=

 

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

=

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

=

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

=

http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

=

<= span class=3DEmailStyle17> 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, July 21, = 2002 5:41 PM
To: PRR-CandA-Division@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] looking = for a photo of a PRR H-15/16-44

 

List,

With altas's announcement of a H-15/16-44 possibly in PRR I am looking = for some photos!  
Anyone have any links or any to scan? I am sure i am not the only one = looking for these :)
thanks in advance,

Mike Schock =
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List = Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo<= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C230EA.12E58F30-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 02:08:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Here's a Walk around detail of the F-39, H-43 Hey Yuze Gize, Al Stump, SR. has been busy updating OUR TRAIN ROOM, which is our website. He has added a couple of walk-around photo tours of a F-39 flat in Las Vegas, NV hauling CAL-NEVA gasoline pipe and an ex-PRR H43 hopper in Las Vegas, NV in "Dirty-dirt" service. And a look back on the scratchbuilt article my brother Ed did on the G-39 class ore jenny. Thanks Ed for saving these pieces of equipment on film for us and thanks AL for loading them to the Webpage... Please excuse the Popups but a free 100 meg site is not always free but there is no out of pocket expense yet. Ed, AL and myself share this site and will be adding to it in the near future. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] L-1s #3590 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 10:43:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2316C.A18D0D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted- MP 229 March 1, 1952: L1s #3590 was assigned to the Central Region-Conemaugh Division. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ted Andrews Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2002 2:59 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] L-1s #3590 PRR-Listers: I am tracking down the history of L-1s #3590. I know of one photo of this engine: the June 1981 edition of "The Keystone" on page 47. The engine is pulling a northbound troop train on the South Bend branch in Plymouth, Indiana in 1948. Generally speaking, L-1's were rare in Lines West territories. Both M and N class engines were the more typical freight engine west of Pittsburgh. However, the wartime demands of WW 2 brought many L-1s out across the Pennsylvania system including Lines West. Does anyone know of other photos (published or not) of 3590? Does anyone know of the typical assignments of this engine especially in the 1940's? Speaking of engine assignments, I looked in the MP 229 from 11/1/44 and I could not find 3590. What would be the reasons for this? It does not seem likely that engines would be in storage during WW 2. Is it possible that the L-1's (number 3590 in 1948) was actually another number in earlier years and was assigned a new number as other classes were retired or re-numbered? It seems questionable that the Pennsy would go through the trouble of re-numbering engines in the late 1940's when many classes, including L-1's, were being dropped from the roster in 1948-1950. Thank you in advance for any information the you can provide me. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2316C.A18D0D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted-
 
MP 229 March 1, 1952: L1s #3590 = was assigned=20 to the Central Region-Conemaugh Division.
 
Greg V
-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ted = Andrews
Sent:=20 Sunday, July 21, 2002 2:59 PM
To: PRR = Talk
Subject: [PRR]=20 L-1s #3590
PRR-Listers:
 
I am tracking down the history of L-1s #3590. I know of one photo = of this=20 engine: the June 1981 edition of "The Keystone" on page 47. The engine = is=20 pulling a northbound troop train on the South Bend branch in Plymouth, = Indiana=20 in 1948.
 
Generally speaking, L-1's were rare in Lines West=20 territories. Both M and N class engines were the more = typical=20 freight engine west of Pittsburgh. However, the wartime = demands of=20 WW 2 brought many L-1s out across the Pennsylvania = system including=20 Lines West.
 
Does anyone know of other photos (published or not) of 3590? = Does=20 anyone know of the typical assignments of this engine especially = in the=20 1940's?
 
Speaking of engine assignments, I looked in the MP 229 from = 11/1/44=20 and I could not find 3590. What would be the reasons for this? It does = not=20 seem likely that engines would be in storage during WW 2. Is it = possible that=20 the L-1's (number 3590 in 1948) was actually another number in earlier = years=20 and was assigned a new number as other classes were retired or = re-numbered? It=20 seems questionable that the Pennsy would go through the trouble of=20 re-numbering engines in the late 1940's when many classes, = including=20 L-1's, were being dropped from the roster in 1948-1950.
 
Thank you in advance for any information the you can provide = me.
 
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C2316C.A18D0D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 11:26:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. wrote: > the SD40 the Dulux Gold (buff) background > > Derrick, > > I believe Deluxe Gold and Buff are two different paint styles. That is the "Dulux" > concern forwarded to the decal manufacturers. Deluxe Gold came out after > Buff, and was used primarily on Passenger Locomotives initially around > 1930's(correct me if I am wrong). Though, it is not to say you can't find a > passenger loco with Buff style lettering. My only point was, the Kato SD40 paint scheme is bad enough that you shouldn't use it as an example of anything or pretend that anything about it is correct or intended to represent something. Don't point to it as an example, don't cite it, just don't. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] 1361 Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 13:55:01 -0400 List- Visiting Steam town National Park yesterday, I must say 1361 has come a long way. The backhead is now on, and seems like she will very much so make a 2003 deadline. As of fall 2002, I don't see it. She was still in pieces on the floor. Boiler and firebox with cylinders are on the chassis. The ranger said the project is presently at 1.2 mil. I am sure she will run again. Can't wait. I must also applaud Steam town for a facility having the ability to lend their shops to the Altoona RRer's Memorial Museum to functionally restore 1361. The ranger said the boiler was not in that bad of condition for her plus million miles. To my understanding, the work is being done at Steam town, utilizing the shops. The work itself is being done by volunteers and paid individuals outside of steam town. Keep up the good work. Greg Vlassopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 14:58:33 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Here's a Walk around detail of the F-39, H-43 Hey Yuze Gize, Let me send you the link it might get stripped again but lets try this... http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/beautiful/819/Ed/F39/Ed_F39.htm Again excuse the popups. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Anyone heard from Rob Schoenberg? Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:41:22 -0400 List: A couple of weeks ago Rob asked for help proofreading a PRR Form 109. I proofread page 38-41 for him and sent them back to him on the 15th, asking if he received and understood. Have received no reply. Can anyone contact him off line and find out if he has computer problems. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:41:21 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Our Train Room Website Hey Yuze Gize, For those of you out there that didn't get a copy of Kris Kollar's Mainline Modeler article on the PRR L-1,well, there is a condensed version on the website...With photos! He did a great job of rebuilding this old Bowser loco. Check it out. an amazing young man. The photos of the H-43 were used to help develop his article in Mainline years ago and this is were the details came from. The F-39 are for future articles either he or I or both of us are going to do. ENJOY! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 19:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color Hey Derrick...... Kato's PRR paint was kind of bad. I talked to the Kato folks at the East Coast Hobby Show and maybe we could see the second run of SD45s in the correct PRR paint. PRR's paint scheme for the (2nd generation) EMDs would seem to be an easy task for model railroad companies. Yet some never match the true color. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 22:27:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color On Mon, 22 Jul 2002 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Hey Derrick...... > > Kato's PRR paint was kind of bad. I talked to the Kato folks at > the East Coast Hobby Show > and maybe we could see the second run of SD45s in the correct PRR paint. I don't have mine handy, but I recall the NW-2 as not being bad. The SD40 and GP35 sure were. > PRR's paint scheme for the (2nd generation) EMDs would seem to be > an easy task for model railroad companies. Yet some never match the true > color. Or the font for the numbers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:20:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Diesel Keystone color changes 1961? In a message dated 7/21/02 7:18:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:10:34 -0400 > > Someone else will have to supply the exact date, but around 1960, > concurtrent with dropping the shadow keystone on cars along with the > spelled > out "Pennsylvania" on both cars and locomotives, the keystones on > locomotives changed from a dulux background to a white background and the > numbers went from the steam locomotive styled "notched" numbers in dulux to > larger, simpler styled numbers in yellow. The change in GM motive power > began with the delivery of the GP30's, so both SD35's and SD40's should > have > the red and white keystones and large yellow numerals (and of course no > "Pennsylvania"). > > Gregg Mahlkov > If correlated with the change to PRR's 10th and last standard lettering phase (Plain Keystone, or PK), this change in locomotive lettering would have come in September 1961 (per McGuire, Summer Keystone 1988). However, I think the "Arrangement Drawing" date might be later for locomotives -- for one thing, I don't recall any orders of new locomotives being delivered in this time slot. For example, 1. SD9's came in 1957 and 1958. Photo evidence says the keystone monograms on the short hood all had dulux lettering/striping on a red background, with PENNSYLVANIA in dulux on the sides of the long hood. BTW, units delivered in this period did not have keystones on the ends (check out SD7 and Trainmaster pix also) - but they did have a smallish road number painted on there in dulux. 2. When the GP30's were delivered in 1962, they carried (initiated?) the white-on-red keystone, with up to 6 per unit. Cab numbers were the large yellow ones, and there was no long-hood PENNSYLVANIA. This was later referred to as a "dip" scheme, but the use of keystone stickers supposedly allowed for quick remarking of the units. Remember that, from 1962 on, the PRR was deadly serious in its pursuit of merger with the New York Central. Paint references: I checked the above quickly in PDY Vol 1. Many other color books will show the same. 3. It's likely there were repaints as early as 1961. Then in April 1966, it was necessary to renumber not quite half the surviving Pennsy diesel fleet, giving them Penn Central road numbers (always 4-digit). This involved some big number blocks, including F7's, GP7's, E7/E8's, all the old 6-motors, and lots of switchers. The thing to watch for here is that the numbers would be the contemporary large yellow, and some keystone stickers might be sprinkled on (but often not in all 6 locations for a road switcher body). But lots of renumberings didn't involve a complete repaint of the locomotive, so you also got units retaining the long-hood PENNSYLVANIA from a previous paint job. 4. One renumbering combination I'd like to verify (think SD7, SD9, H-24-66): the long hood PENNSYLVANIA and short hood red/gold keystone, combined with large yellow road numbers. If this scheme existed, I wouldn't expect to find red/white stickons on the ends. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NsdPZD/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 23:20:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Diesel Keystone color changes 1961? --part1_ae.2a5ea087.2a6e257c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/02 7:18:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:10:34 -0400 > > Someone else will have to supply the exact date, but around 1960, > concurtrent with dropping the shadow keystone on cars along with the > spelled > out "Pennsylvania" on both cars and locomotives, the keystones on > locomotives changed from a dulux background to a white background and the > numbers went from the steam locomotive styled "notched" numbers in dulux to > larger, simpler styled numbers in yellow. The change in GM motive power > began with the delivery of the GP30's, so both SD35's and SD40's should > have > the red and white keystones and large yellow numerals (and of course no > "Pennsylvania"). > > Gregg Mahlkov > If correlated with the change to PRR's 10th and last standard lettering phase (Plain Keystone, or PK), this change in locomotive lettering would have come in September 1961 (per McGuire, Summer Keystone 1988). However, I think the "Arrangement Drawing" date might be later for locomotives -- for one thing, I don't recall any orders of new locomotives being delivered in this time slot. For example, 1. SD9's came in 1957 and 1958. Photo evidence says the keystone monograms on the short hood all had dulux lettering/striping on a red background, with PENNSYLVANIA in dulux on the sides of the long hood. BTW, units delivered in this period did not have keystones on the ends (check out SD7 and Trainmaster pix also) - but they did have a smallish road number painted on there in dulux. 2. When the GP30's were delivered in 1962, they carried (initiated?) the white-on-red keystone, with up to 6 per unit. Cab numbers were the large yellow ones, and there was no long-hood PENNSYLVANIA. This was later referred to as a "dip" scheme, but the use of keystone stickers supposedly allowed for quick remarking of the units. Remember that, from 1962 on, the PRR was deadly serious in its pursuit of merger with the New York Central. Paint references: I checked the above quickly in PDY Vol 1. Many other color books will show the same. 3. It's likely there were repaints as early as 1961. Then in April 1966, it was necessary to renumber not quite half the surviving Pennsy diesel fleet, giving them Penn Central road numbers (always 4-digit). This involved some big number blocks, including F7's, GP7's, E7/E8's, all the old 6-motors, and lots of switchers. The thing to watch for here is that the numbers would be the contemporary large yellow, and some keystone stickers might be sprinkled on (but often not in all 6 locations for a road switcher body). But lots of renumberings didn't involve a complete repaint of the locomotive, so you also got units retaining the long-hood PENNSYLVANIA from a previous paint job. 4. One renumbering combination I'd like to verify (think SD7, SD9, H-24-66): the long hood PENNSYLVANIA and short hood red/gold keystone, combined with large yellow road numbers. If this scheme existed, I wouldn't expect to find red/white stickons on the ends. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ae.2a5ea087.2a6e257c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/21/02 7:18:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:10:34 -0400

Someone else will have to supply the exact date, but around 1960,
concurtrent with dropping the shadow keystone on cars along with the spelled
out "Pennsylvania" on both cars and locomotives, the keystones on
locomotives changed from a dulux background to a white background and the
numbers went from the steam locomotive styled "notched" numbers in dulux to
larger, simpler styled numbers in yellow. The change in GM motive power
began with the delivery of the GP30's, so both SD35's and SD40's should have
the red and white keystones and large yellow numerals (and of course no
"Pennsylvania").

Gregg Mahlkov


If correlated with the change to PRR's 10th and last standard lettering phase (Plain Keystone, or PK), this change in locomotive lettering would have come in September 1961 (per McGuire, Summer Keystone 1988).  However, I think the "Arrangement Drawing" date might be later for locomotives -- for one thing, I don't recall any orders of new locomotives being delivered in this time slot.

For example,
1. SD9's came in 1957 and 1958.  Photo evidence says the keystone monograms on the short hood all had dulux lettering/striping on a red background, with PENNSYLVANIA in dulux on the sides of the long hood.  BTW, units delivered in this period did not have keystones on the ends (check out SD7 and Trainmaster pix also) - but they did have a smallish road number painted on there in dulux.
2.  When the GP30's were delivered in 1962, they carried (initiated?) the white-on-red keystone, with up to 6 per unit.  Cab numbers were the large yellow ones, and there was no long-hood PENNSYLVANIA.  This was later referred to as a "dip" scheme, but the use of keystone stickers supposedly allowed for quick remarking of the units.  Remember that, from 1962 on, the PRR was deadly serious in its pursuit of merger with the New York Central.

Paint references: I checked the above quickly in PDY Vol 1.  Many other color books will show the same.

3. It's likely there were repaints as early as 1961. Then in April 1966, it was necessary to renumber not quite half the surviving Pennsy diesel fleet, giving them Penn Central road numbers (always 4-digit).  This involved some big number blocks, including F7's, GP7's, E7/E8's, all the old 6-motors, and lots of switchers.  The thing to watch for here is that the numbers would be the contemporary large yellow, and some keystone stickers might be sprinkled on (but often not in all 6 locations for a road switcher body).  But lots of renumberings didn't involve a complete repaint of the locomotive, so you also got units retaining the long-hood PENNSYLVANIA from a previous paint job.

4.  One renumbering combination I'd like to verify (think SD7, SD9, H-24-66): the long hood PENNSYLVANIA and short hood red/gold keystone, combined with large yellow road numbers.  If this scheme existed, I wouldn't expect to find red/white stickons on the ends.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ae.2a5ea087.2a6e257c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:55:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 In a message dated 7/22/02 2:02:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gregv@NetReach.Net writes: << Boiler and firebox with cylinders are on the chassis. The ranger said the project is presently at 1.2 mil. I am sure she will run again. Can't wait. >> Of course, the real question is where they'll put the headlight? Right (Prewar) or wrong (Postwar) location ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 06:01:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] L-1s #3590 assignments 1949-56 Ted, list, L1s 3590 was built by Baldwin in April 1919 and sold for scrap in January 1957. This is from Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster. I found info on her divisional assignments from 1949-56 from faded MP229 copies. 7/1/49 Northwestern Division/Logansport Division 5/1/50 Northwestern Division/Chicago Division 6/1/51 Conemaugh Division 3/1/52 Conemaugh Division 4/1/53 Conemaugh Division 3/1/54 Conemaugh Division 4/1/55 Conemaugh Division 3/1/56 Pittsburgh Region Doug --- Ted Andrews wrote, in part: > PRR-Listers: > > I am tracking down the history of L-1s #3590. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Reid brothers Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 09:23:36 -0400 A while back, I saw an article on two brothers that modeled the Cumberland Valley Branch to Hagerstown in N scale. If anyone knows how I can get in touch with them, please contact me off list. thank you Greg V gregv@netreach.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Diesel Keystone color changes 1961? Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 08:06:06 -0700 Rick and all; To add a little, I think the first order of U25b's (the "Conemaugh" units?) might have been the first "second gen" diesels on the PRR, which (I believe) came in 1962 with the red & white decals and yellow numbers. If the last of the first gen diesels came in '59 (with red & dulux keys), and the paint change came ~'61, what diesels might have been repainted in that two year span? I'd love to see a photo of that scheme you mentioned, as I also recall seeing an SD-9 or two in the "spelled out Pennsylvania and red & white key" scheme. These were delivered around '58 or '59 tho'. This scheme I would have seen at Conway, I think, mid 60's. I think these SD's might have had keys on the sides of the short hood, too? Have you guys unearthed another mystery? Elden -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com [mailto:RickTipton@aol.com] Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 8:20 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR@egroups.com Subject: [PRR] Diesel Keystone color changes 1961? In a message dated 7/21/02 7:18:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: Re: [PRR] Question - Diesel Keystone color From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:10:34 -0400 Someone else will have to supply the exact date, but around 1960, concurtrent with dropping the shadow keystone on cars along with the spelled out "Pennsylvania" on both cars and locomotives, the keystones on locomotives changed from a dulux background to a white background and the numbers went from the steam locomotive styled "notched" numbers in dulux to larger, simpler styled numbers in yellow. The change in GM motive power began with the delivery of the GP30's, so both SD35's and SD40's should have the red and white keystones and large yellow numerals (and of course no "Pennsylvania"). Gregg Mahlkov If correlated with the change to PRR's 10th and last standard lettering phase (Plain Keystone, or PK), this change in locomotive lettering would have come in September 1961 (per McGuire, Summer Keystone 1988). However, I think the "Arrangement Drawing" date might be later for locomotives -- for one thing, I don't recall any orders of new locomotives being delivered in this time slot. For example, 1. SD9's came in 1957 and 1958. Photo evidence says the keystone monograms on the short hood all had dulux lettering/striping on a red background, with PENNSYLVANIA in dulux on the sides of the long hood. BTW, units delivered in this period did not have keystones on the ends (check out SD7 and Trainmaster pix also) - but they did have a smallish road number painted on there in dulux. 2. When the GP30's were delivered in 1962, they carried (initiated?) the white-on-red keystone, with up to 6 per unit. Cab numbers were the large yellow ones, and there was no long-hood PENNSYLVANIA. This was later referred to as a "dip" scheme, but the use of keystone stickers supposedly allowed for quick remarking of the units. Remember that, from 1962 on, the PRR was deadly serious in its pursuit of merger with the New York Central. Paint references: I checked the above quickly in PDY Vol 1. Many other color books will show the same. 3. It's likely there were repaints as early as 1961. Then in April 1966, it was necessary to renumber not quite half the surviving Pennsy diesel fleet, giving them Penn Central road numbers (always 4-digit). This involved some big number blocks, including F7's, GP7's, E7/E8's, all the old 6-motors, and lots of switchers. The thing to watch for here is that the numbers would be the contemporary large yellow, and some keystone stickers might be sprinkled on (but often not in all 6 locations for a road switcher body). But lots of renumberings didn't involve a complete repaint of the locomotive, so you also got units retaining the long-hood PENNSYLVANIA from a previous paint job. 4. One renumbering combination I'd like to verify (think SD7, SD9, H-24-66): the long hood PENNSYLVANIA and short hood red/gold keystone, combined with large yellow road numbers. If this scheme existed, I wouldn't expect to find red/white stickons on the ends. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 13:45:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Oriental Limited From: Jerry Britton Anyone know if Oriental Limited still has a pulse? Their web site went off-the-air about three months ago. E-mails failed to go through. I finally contacted the folks at Broadway Limited, a spin-off from Oriental, and they indicated the site should be back online shortly. I have since noticed that the domain name was not renewed... http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=orientalltd.com&SearchType= do I tried contacting the domain owner by e-mail but got no response (or bounce, but that's AOL for ya!). Has anyone been able to reach Oriental over the past three months? I guess certified mail is my next avenue. Hope it doesn't affect Broadway Limited Imports! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Evil Empire Question Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 14:24:34 +0000 Listers: While looking at photos of PRR SD-35's, I notice an NYC GP-30 in the background on one of the photos. There was a device that is located on the engineer's side of low hood of the GP-30. My curiousity has gotten the best of me and that is why I am writing this note. Is this device part of the automatic train stop that the NYC used? If so, do you know if anyone such as Cal Scale or Details West that makes them in HO scale? Thanks in advance. Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:45:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Topography of the Panhandle in Ohio Note how the National Road (US 40 - I-70) tracks the "panhandle" in eastern Ohio. while the "Lincoln Highway" (US 30) danced back and forth over the Ft Wayne, further north. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Topography of the Panhandle in Ohio Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 20:05:17 +0000 30 between Ft. Wayne and Valporaiso, Indiana is strictly a north side of the tracks route. The tracks crossed 30 on the east side of Valpo to make their run to Gary and the parallel run with the enemy. I have driven that run more times than I care to remember. Norm Bell > Note how the National Road (US 40 - I-70) tracks the "panhandle" in eastern > Ohio. > while the "Lincoln Highway" (US 30) danced back and forth over the Ft Wayne, > further north. > > Dick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Evil Empire Question Ted...... asking questions about NYC diesels on a PRR LIST may get you hung from the nearest catenary pole.:-) .....but anyway, that device is part of the ATS on NYC diesels. Most were removed and replaced with PRR signal boxes. And yes, that part is avalible in HO. Dave Hopson Modeling Pitts Div. 1965-1972 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] PA/PB equipment Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:13:12 -0700 Hi all! After looking at some of the engine assignments for my time period, I noticed that, at least in 1962 (right at the end for these guys), PA's (AFP-20's) 5752, 5753, 5754, and 5759 had "whistle and acknowledger" and "speed control" equipment. I always thought the speed control was something that hump engines came with for slow speed control and such, but I am noticing that some of the passenger RS-3's and GP-7's also have this. Can anyone tell me what this would have done for passenger engines? Was this equipment just left on the units for this lowly "end-of-the-run" drag freight assignment? Does the "P" part of the AFP moniker automatically forgoe the need for the "s" and mean that these guys still all carried steam generators? Why were the passsenger RS-3's referred to as AS-16ms and not AFPS-16m? No, don't answer that one...just kidding. Another one: By 1962 were all the Eries being used in "split" service between two C-Liners as I recall discussion placing them, or were they used at all in A-A service? Does anyone know which ones were converted to "Red Ball" service? Did this conversion only encompass the m.u. jumper on the nose, or was there more to it? And one last obscure question: Can anyone speculate as to why one of the non-passenger equipped AS-616's, 8969, would have been equipped with back-up service, whistle and acknowledger, Trainphone, and Radio telephone equipment? No, it did not have steam, so was not a passenger protect engine. 8967 has none of this, and the remainder of the freight-only AS-616's have only the radio telephone. Weird, huh? I look forward to your speculation or answers! Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] GS, G22c in scrap service Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 15:49:55 -0700 Hi again! Here's some info and a question: In 1964, 2 GS's and 19 G22c's (the entire subclass!) were assigned to scrap service. They had extended sides and ends. There is a photo of a G31d in the Morning Sun PRR books of a G31d in this service with sides made from cut-up H21 hopper sides. Yes, this car is ultra cool. I did one in HO from that photo. If anyone is interested, drop me a line on the model. My question is: Have you seen a photo anywhere of the GS or G22c cars in this service? Or, (hope beyond hope) does anyone know who these guys were assigned to? Have an excellent modeling evening, Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 16:15:59 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Puzzling photo in Triumph 1 I'm looking at a photo on page 301 of Triumph 1. It is a view of the main line looking eastward from just east of the passenger station in Greensburg, Pa. The photo shows the street bridges over the main line, and a locomotive. It's hard to tell, but I think it's pulling at least a few cars. The puzzle is the locomotive. The halftone dots are a bit coarse, but it seems that the locomotive has a bell mounted high on the smokebox front, headlight centered on the smokebox front, with a rectangular number plate under the light. That seems quite un-PRR, so I'm wondering what it is and what it's doing under steam westbound on the main line at Greensburg. Any thoughts? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:05:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Evil Empire Question The item Ted asks about is a motor-generator set for the Automatic Train Stop. It is available from Custom Finishes by Bob Rzasa, www.1-87vehicles.org/directory/Custom%20Finishing.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 21:22:10 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PA/PB equipment ELDEN (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com)writes: > > > Hi all! > After looking at some of the engine assignments for my time period, I noticed that, at least in 1962 (right at the end for these guys), PA's(AFP-20's) 5752, 5753, 5754, and 5759 had "whistle and acknowledger" and "speed control" equipment. I always thought the speed control was something that hump engines came with for slow speed control and such, but I am noticing that some of the passenger RS-3's and GP-7's also have this. Can anyone tell me what this would have done for passenger engines?< Elden,I think you are confusing the ATS(Automatic Train Stop)speed control with "hump control" that was equiped on some Hump locomotives like some FM's and SD-9's. This device "whistle and acknowledger" was there for the engineer to acknoledge the signal that he had just passed. If he did not acknowledge the signal the engine would come to an automatiic stop. There was a "fuse box" if you will under the cab on the fireman's side along the sill that the cab junctioned into before it went after leaving the shoe (attached to the center journal.) It was applied to some but not all freight units as well. >Was this equipment just left on the units for this lowly "end-of-the-run" drag >freight assignment? Does the "P" part of the AFP moniker automatically > forgoe the need for the "s" and mean that these guys still all carried steam > generators?< It seems for whatever reason the PRR passenger units converted to dual service were all given this designation. >Why were the passsenger RS-3's referred to as AS-16ms and not AFPS-16m? No, don't answer that one...just kidding. Aren't you thinking AFP-16m? No need for the "s" in this rationale. >And one last obscure question: Can anyone speculate as to why one of the non-passenger equipped AS-616's, 8969, would have been equipped with back-up service, whistle and acknowledger, Trainphone, and Radio telephone equipment? No, it did not have steam, so was not a passenger protect engine. 8967 has none of this, and the remainder of the freight-only AS-616's have only the radio telephone. Weird, huh?< Again, some freight locomotives were equiped with the ATS equipment and the best decuction would be where the locomotives were orginally assigned. Once the units were moved around from their origainal assignment, althought the new region was not equiped with the ATS devices (trackside)there was really no reason to remove them. Now this is a deduction not a fact I have read just through visual research. I have a good old B&W PRR promo film (converted to VHS) which explains this saftey device real well. It is actually filmed in an EMD E-7 I would guess in about 1947 or there about. Great footage! > I look forward to your speculation or answers! > Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 07:17:14 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] ATS-ATC In a discussion between Greg M. and Elden G. the subject of ATS (Automatic Train Stop) and ATC (Automatic Train Control) came up. Both were essentially to directly enforce proper train operation in accordance with conditions ahead. They were developed primarily to supplement wayside signals, assuming direct control of the train by applying an automatic penalty airbrake application when the engineman failed to operate the train safely, in accordance with aspects displayed by wayside signals. ATS was the system used on the NYC and was an Intermittent Inductive Train Control, i.e., it was not on all the time (read intermittent) even in ATS territory. Some other railroads also used ATS. ATC was the system used on the PRR and was a straight Inductive Train Control, meaning in ATC territory it was on all the time. Other railroads also used ATC. ATC worked with coded track circuits, which was always present in the rails within ATC territory. ATS worked with only periodic wayside inductors collocated with the signals being controlled. True low speed control (a different system - hump control) was used on diesels where very low sustained speeds were required such as in hump service (and also the Brownhoist ballast cleaner) so the units could "creep" all for sustained periods with out problems. This was a completely internal system and had no connection with any input from outside the unit. The PRR had only a few steam and diesel locomotives equipped to handle ATS and they were primarily for service on the E&P Branch where it was needed for the last 17 miles on trackage rights running, between Girard Jct. and Erie on the NYC. These units typically operated out of Pittsburgh, Canton and Erie. There were 10 class BF16 units, 2024A-2027A and 9734A-9739A and 7 class EF15 units 9656A-9661A and 9666A. After the class BF's were retired, only the 7 EF15 units remained through the merger. Six of the seven received merger numbers 1901-1906 and were easy to spot as they were the only units in the 1900 block. I believe the seventh unit was wreck damaged. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago chapter PPRT&HS Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 13:59:10 +0000 Could all of you who were interested in starting a chapter please e mail once again. I have somehow lost all the e mail addresses. We have at least ten people which is the minimum and should probably get started soon. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:28:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Galloping Goose From: Jerry Britton I shared this with my "Merchandise Announce" list a few days ago, but for laughs for all, here it is... Con-Cor has announced that they will be producing the "Galloping Goose" in HO scale. The killer is all the road names they will be making for these unique critters, including the PRR!!!! (The Con Cor part number is 4104.) Geeez, might as well let Thomas run around the layout! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 14:42:59 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Galloping Goose Don't forget to decal Thomas for the PRR. We could start a long thread on when (if ever) Thomas stopped using red cab roofs and tender decks, and what the official name of his baby blue paint was ;-) BBLE? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org Was Thomas's full name "Thomas Alexander Scott"? ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > I shared this with my "Merchandise Announce" list a few days ago, but for > laughs for all, here it is... > > Con-Cor has announced that they will be producing the "Galloping Goose" in > HO scale. The killer is all the road names they will be making for these > unique critters, including the PRR!!!! > > (The Con Cor part number is 4104.) > > Geeez, might as well let Thomas run around the layout! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:11:31 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Galloping Goose --- "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Don't forget to decal Thomas for the PRR. We could start a long > thread on > when (if ever) Thomas stopped using red cab roofs and tender decks, > and what > the official name of his baby blue paint was ;-) BBLE? If I recall correctly, the Rev. Awdry was aware of, and may have participated in the activities of the Blue Bell Railway, an preservationist line in England. Indeed one of the Useful Engines on the Sodor Railway was acquired from the Blue Bell Railway. Can't recall the name off hand. I submit, therefore, that the correct terminology would be BBLE, standing for "Blue Bell Locomotive Enamel". > Was Thomas's full name "Thomas Alexander Scott"? 'Tis possible, I suppose, that Rev. Awdry's knowlege and interest extended to The Standard Railroad of the World, although he may have thought of it as "The Standard Railway of the Colonies". As to the time frame for various Thomas color schemes, I think we're out of luck, as there was but one. On the other hand, there is a rich field for study in Henry's trip to Crewe and the resulting conversion to a Belpaire firebox. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:17:47 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: ATS-ATC Al, Thanks for the corretion on the verbage. I wonder if there are any records still in existance on the units that had the ATC equipment. I see them on units in and around Pittsburgh all the time, but of course this is the area of my interest so I probably just overlooke dthem on units in other areas. It seems to me that the ALCo FA/B's had them too. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring CSRE CBNT W3NU Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:17:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Galloping Goose "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Don't forget to decal Thomas for the PRR. We could start a long thread on > when (if ever) Thomas stopped using red cab roofs and tender decks, and what > the official name of his baby blue paint was ;-) BBLE? I wonder if even .000000000000000001% of Thomas fans know what a tank engine is. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:28:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Galloping Goose From: Jerry Britton On 7/25/02 3:17 PM, Charles Ring CSRE CBNT W3NU (charlesr@infonline.net) wrote: > "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > >> Don't forget to decal Thomas for the PRR. We could start a long thread on >> when (if ever) Thomas stopped using red cab roofs and tender decks, and what >> the official name of his baby blue paint was ;-) BBLE? > > I wonder if even .000000000000000001% of Thomas fans know what a tank engine > is. > Isn't that an engine that's been drinking too much? Thomas the tanked engine! Okay, I started a really bad thread! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 12:32:40 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Galloping Goose --- Charles Ring CSRE CBNT W3NU wrote: > > > "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > > > Don't forget to decal Thomas for the PRR. We could start a long > thread on > > when (if ever) Thomas stopped using red cab roofs and tender > decks, and what > > the official name of his baby blue paint was ;-) BBLE? > > I wonder if even .000000000000000001% of Thomas fans know what a > tank engine is. Especially since some/many of the more up-market outlets often advertised "Thomas the Tank" goods. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 15:59:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR "BBLE" Tank Engines --part1_139.11c9b0c0.2a71b296_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Hummmmm? Thomas modified with a Belpaire boiler, Keytone on the front, and Tuscan paint with five stripe livery --- just might make a good gag gift or a PRR primer for an SPF's offspring. Keystones pupils?? Evan Leisey --part1_139.11c9b0c0.2a71b296_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

  Hummmmm?  Thomas modified with a Belpaire boiler, Keytone on the front, and Tuscan paint with five stripe livery  ---  just might make a good gag gift or a PRR primer for an SPF's offspring.  Keystones pupils??

Evan Leisey --part1_139.11c9b0c0.2a71b296_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Galloping Goose Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 20:13:18 GMT > > Geeez, might as well let Thomas run around the layout! ;-) Speaking of letting Thomas run around the layout, my club had me install decoders in both Thomas and a Hogwarts engine so we can run them for the kids during our open house. Trust me, they were not disigned for pulg and play. Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 16:27:02 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] BBLE As a local here on Delmarva where-in the late Thomas A. Scott lived....I can assure you that he didn't allow no stinkin' blue engines here in NYP&N/PRR days. However, what is left of the Delmarva Division in Virginia is now the Eastern Shore Railroad (ESHR) which does indeed have light blue engines that are most likely faded CONRAIL blue. (I can't bring myself to use the term "b--- blue") see: http://www.trainweb.org/peninsularailfan/eshr_jobpics.html which includes a PRR station! Jim Mcdaniel, enjoying the humor (but not the humidity) here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "BBLE" Tank Engines Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:23:14 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C23429.DE5A7990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why not just buy a Hornby "Jinty" and paint it blue?? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 8:59 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR "BBLE" Tank Engines List,=20 Hummmmm? Thomas modified with a Belpaire boiler, Keytone on the = front, and Tuscan paint with five stripe livery --- just might make a = good gag gift or a PRR primer for an SPF's offspring. Keystones = pupils??=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C23429.DE5A7990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why not just buy a Hornby "Jinty" and = paint it=20 blue??
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 = 8:59=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRR "BBLE" Tank=20 Engines

List,=20

  Hummmmm?  Thomas modified with a Belpaire = boiler,=20 Keytone on the front, and Tuscan paint with five stripe livery =  ---=20  just might make a good gag gift or a PRR primer for an SPF's = offspring.=20  Keystones pupils??

Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C23429.DE5A7990-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:53:55 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Icing stations and Through Freight Schedules, Fort Wayne and Panhandle In a message dated 7/24/02 5:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:23:37 -0400 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle > > Walt said> reefers via Columbus because of the ice station that existed > here > > There was the ice station in Canton on the PFW&C, on the eastbound side > of the yard, across from Fairhope. > > Al > Gize, At least this is a cool subject for this time of year. The south (even Kentucky) is hot right now... It would be nice - just once - to get closure on the relative importance of these icing stations on the two routes. As I understand (and I could be completely wet): 1. Both the Fort Wayne route and the Panhandle route out of Chicago always had icing facilities available, from the beginning of reefer traffic. I'm pretty sure the Fort Wayne once iced cars at Chicago, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Canton, and Allegheny City. The Panhandle must have had similar facilities or arrangements at similar intervals along its Chicago, St. Louis, and Cincinnati lines. Probably until (or well past) system consolidation in the early twenties, both routes iced their own traffic. 2. At some point in time, the PRR had to decide whether to renew/expand icing capacity on both routes. 3. Since the Panhandle had to carry St. Louis reefer traffic anyway, the through freight schedules were rigged so that the solid interchange reefer blocks out of Chicago also passed through Columbus. Old Arranged Freight Schedules don't come out and say this traffic was taken off the Fort Wayne, but it's implied in their structure. The idea was to create solid blocks of cars by destination, get the cars iced up fully, and then ramrod those blocks east into or past Enola without having to ice them again. At least (I believe) that was the concept. 4. A giant (train-length?) icing facility was created on the south side of Yard A in Columbus (this was the eastbound yard). IIRC this was a little east of Fort Hayes, a downtown US Army post. If this story holds water (bad pun), the capacity of this plant would be much larger than any established on the Fort Wayne side, or anywhere else on the Panhandle. 5. Some historic maps lead you to believe that this ice facility replaced an older one on the same site owned by Armour. 6. Some years ago, I visited this site. There was little left to indicate any icing plant -- maybe a few bricks at one end. My impression is that the neighborhood was undergoing new development of some sort, so the land has long since gone under the bulldozer. 7. This whole subject is, of course, relevant to the age of ice reefers. When these cars were replaced by mechanicals, the design of Through Freight Schedules would have been redrawn again. For example, by the 80's, the IHENs (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) were coming out of Chicago and bringing seemingly trainloads of mechanical reefers through Fort Wayne. I used to go down to Mike tower after work and watch them go through 1981-1983. What a show! Also -- was the kicker here that the Panhandle's terminal trackage, southwest of downtown Chicago, just simply closer and more convenient for gathering perishable traffic? Or was general traffic overload on the busier Fort Wayne line the more important factor? Help me out, guys. Is this the way it was? What evidence do we have one way or the other? Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West And getting ready to model the end of ice reefer traffic through Columbus in HO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NsdPZD/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:53:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] Icing stations and Through Freight Schedules, Fort Wayne --part1_7a.2a52127c.2a7213c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/02 5:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:23:37 -0400 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle > > Walt said> reefers via Columbus because of the ice station that existed > here > > There was the ice station in Canton on the PFW&C, on the eastbound side > of the yard, across from Fairhope. > > Al > Gize, At least this is a cool subject for this time of year. The south (even Kentucky) is hot right now... It would be nice - just once - to get closure on the relative importance of these icing stations on the two routes. As I understand (and I could be completely wet): 1. Both the Fort Wayne route and the Panhandle route out of Chicago always had icing facilities available, from the beginning of reefer traffic. I'm pretty sure the Fort Wayne once iced cars at Chicago, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Canton, and Allegheny City. The Panhandle must have had similar facilities or arrangements at similar intervals along its Chicago, St. Louis, and Cincinnati lines. Probably until (or well past) system consolidation in the early twenties, both routes iced their own traffic. 2. At some point in time, the PRR had to decide whether to renew/expand icing capacity on both routes. 3. Since the Panhandle had to carry St. Louis reefer traffic anyway, the through freight schedules were rigged so that the solid interchange reefer blocks out of Chicago also passed through Columbus. Old Arranged Freight Schedules don't come out and say this traffic was taken off the Fort Wayne, but it's implied in their structure. The idea was to create solid blocks of cars by destination, get the cars iced up fully, and then ramrod those blocks east into or past Enola without having to ice them again. At least (I believe) that was the concept. 4. A giant (train-length?) icing facility was created on the south side of Yard A in Columbus (this was the eastbound yard). IIRC this was a little east of Fort Hayes, a downtown US Army post. If this story holds water (bad pun), the capacity of this plant would be much larger than any established on the Fort Wayne side, or anywhere else on the Panhandle. 5. Some historic maps lead you to believe that this ice facility replaced an older one on the same site owned by Armour. 6. Some years ago, I visited this site. There was little left to indicate any icing plant -- maybe a few bricks at one end. My impression is that the neighborhood was undergoing new development of some sort, so the land has long since gone under the bulldozer. 7. This whole subject is, of course, relevant to the age of ice reefers. When these cars were replaced by mechanicals, the design of Through Freight Schedules would have been redrawn again. For example, by the 80's, the IHENs (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) were coming out of Chicago and bringing seemingly trainloads of mechanical reefers through Fort Wayne. I used to go down to Mike tower after work and watch them go through 1981-1983. What a show! Also -- was the kicker here that the Panhandle's terminal trackage, southwest of downtown Chicago, just simply closer and more convenient for gathering perishable traffic? Or was general traffic overload on the busier Fort Wayne line the more important factor? Help me out, guys. Is this the way it was? What evidence do we have one way or the other? Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West And getting ready to model the end of ice reefer traffic through Columbus in HO --part1_7a.2a52127c.2a7213c3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/02 5:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:23:37 -0400
   From: Al Buchan <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle

Walt said> reefers via Columbus because of the ice station that existed
here

There was the ice station in Canton on the PFW&C, on the eastbound side
of the yard, across from Fairhope.

Al


Gize,

At least this is a cool subject for this time of year.  The south (even Kentucky) is hot right now...

It would be nice - just once - to get closure on the relative importance of these icing stations on the two routes.  As I understand (and I could be completely wet):
1.  Both the Fort Wayne route and the Panhandle route out of Chicago always had icing facilities available, from the beginning of reefer traffic.  I'm pretty sure the Fort Wayne once iced cars at Chicago, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Canton, and Allegheny City.  The Panhandle must have had similar facilities or arrangements at similar intervals along its Chicago, St. Louis, and Cincinnati lines.  Probably until (or well past) system consolidation in the early twenties, both routes iced their own traffic.
2.  At some point in time, the PRR had to decide whether to renew/expand icing capacity on both routes.
3.  Since the Panhandle had to carry St. Louis reefer traffic anyway, the through freight schedules were rigged so that the solid interchange reefer blocks out of Chicago also passed through Columbus.  Old Arranged Freight Schedules don't come out and say this traffic was taken off the Fort Wayne, but it's implied in their structure.  The idea was to create solid blocks of cars by destination, get the cars iced up fully, and then ramrod those blocks east into or past Enola without having to ice them again.  At least (I believe) that was the concept.
4.  A giant (train-length?) icing facility was created on the south side of Yard A in Columbus (this was the eastbound yard).  IIRC this was a little east of Fort Hayes, a downtown US Army post.  If this story holds water (bad pun), the capacity of this plant would be much larger than any established on the Fort Wayne side, or anywhere else on the Panhandle.
5.  Some historic maps lead you to believe that this ice facility replaced an older one on the same site owned by Armour.
6.  Some years ago, I visited this site.  There was little left to indicate any icing plant -- maybe a few bricks at one end.  My impression is that the neighborhood was undergoing new development of some sort, so the land has long since gone under the bulldozer.
7.  This whole subject is, of course, relevant to the age of ice reefers.  When these cars were replaced by mechanicals, the design of Through Freight Schedules would have been redrawn again.  For example, by the 80's, the IHENs (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) were coming out of Chicago and bringing seemingly trainloads of mechanical reefers through Fort Wayne.  I used to go down to Mike tower after work and watch them go through 1981-1983.  What a show!

Also -- was the kicker here that the Panhandle's terminal trackage, southwest of downtown Chicago, just simply closer and more convenient for gathering perishable traffic?  Or was general traffic overload on the busier Fort Wayne line the more important factor?

Help me out, guys.  Is this the way it was?  What evidence do we have one way or the other?

Thanks,

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West
And getting ready to model the end of ice reefer traffic through Columbus in HO --part1_7a.2a52127c.2a7213c3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:17:16 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Icing stations and Through Freight Schedules, Fort Wayne and Panhandle In a message dated 7/24/02 5:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:23:37 -0400 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle > > Walt said> reefers via Columbus because of the ice station that existed > here > > There was the ice station in Canton on the PFW&C, on the eastbound side > of the yard, across from Fairhope. > > Al > Gize, At least this is a cool subject for this time of year. The south (even Kentucky) is hot right now... It would be nice - just once - to get closure on the relative importance of these icing stations on the two routes. As I understand (and I could be completely wet): 1. Both the Fort Wayne route and the Panhandle route out of Chicago always had icing facilities available, from the beginning of reefer traffic. I'm pretty sure the Fort Wayne once iced cars at Chicago, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Canton, and Allegheny City. The Panhandle must have had similar facilities or arrangements at similar intervals along its Chicago, St. Louis, and Cincinnati lines. Probably until (or well past) system consolidation in the early twenties, both routes iced their own traffic. 2. At some point in time, the PRR had to decide whether to renew/expand icing capacity on both routes. 3. Since the Panhandle had to carry St. Louis reefer traffic anyway, the through freight schedules were rigged so that the solid interchange reefer blocks out of Chicago also passed through Columbus. Old Arranged Freight Schedules don't come out and say this traffic was taken off the Fort Wayne, but it's implied in their structure. The idea was to create solid blocks of cars by destination, get the cars iced up fully, and then ramrod those blocks east into or past Enola without having to ice them again. At least (I believe) that was the concept. 4. A giant (train-length?) icing facility was created on the south side of Yard A in Columbus (this was the eastbound yard). IIRC this was a little east of Fort Hayes, a downtown US Army post. If this story holds water (bad pun), the capacity of this plant would be much larger than any established on the Fort Wayne side, or anywhere else on the Panhandle. 5. Some historic maps lead you to believe that this ice facility replaced an older one on the same site owned by Armour. 6. Some years ago, I visited this site. There was little left to indicate any icing plant -- maybe a few bricks at one end. My impression is that the neighborhood was undergoing new development of some sort, so the land has long since gone under the bulldozer. 7. This whole subject is, of course, relevant to the age of ice reefers. When these cars were replaced by mechanicals, the design of Through Freight Schedules would have been redrawn again. For example, by the 80's, the IHENs (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) were coming out of Chicago and bringing seemingly trainloads of mechanical reefers through Fort Wayne. I used to go down to Mike tower after work and watch them go through 1981-1983. What a show! Also -- was the kicker here that the Panhandle's terminal trackage, southwest of downtown Chicago, just simply closer and more convenient for gathering perishable traffic? Or was general traffic overload on the busier Fort Wayne line the more important factor? Help me out, guys. Is this the way it was? What evidence do we have one way or the other? Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West And getting ready to model the end of ice reefer traffic through Columbus in HO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/7dY7FD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 23:17:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Icing stations and Through Freight Schedules, Fort Wayne --part1_9a.29094953.2a72193c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/02 5:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:23:37 -0400 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: RE: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle > > Walt said> reefers via Columbus because of the ice station that existed > here > > There was the ice station in Canton on the PFW&C, on the eastbound side > of the yard, across from Fairhope. > > Al > Gize, At least this is a cool subject for this time of year. The south (even Kentucky) is hot right now... It would be nice - just once - to get closure on the relative importance of these icing stations on the two routes. As I understand (and I could be completely wet): 1. Both the Fort Wayne route and the Panhandle route out of Chicago always had icing facilities available, from the beginning of reefer traffic. I'm pretty sure the Fort Wayne once iced cars at Chicago, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Canton, and Allegheny City. The Panhandle must have had similar facilities or arrangements at similar intervals along its Chicago, St. Louis, and Cincinnati lines. Probably until (or well past) system consolidation in the early twenties, both routes iced their own traffic. 2. At some point in time, the PRR had to decide whether to renew/expand icing capacity on both routes. 3. Since the Panhandle had to carry St. Louis reefer traffic anyway, the through freight schedules were rigged so that the solid interchange reefer blocks out of Chicago also passed through Columbus. Old Arranged Freight Schedules don't come out and say this traffic was taken off the Fort Wayne, but it's implied in their structure. The idea was to create solid blocks of cars by destination, get the cars iced up fully, and then ramrod those blocks east into or past Enola without having to ice them again. At least (I believe) that was the concept. 4. A giant (train-length?) icing facility was created on the south side of Yard A in Columbus (this was the eastbound yard). IIRC this was a little east of Fort Hayes, a downtown US Army post. If this story holds water (bad pun), the capacity of this plant would be much larger than any established on the Fort Wayne side, or anywhere else on the Panhandle. 5. Some historic maps lead you to believe that this ice facility replaced an older one on the same site owned by Armour. 6. Some years ago, I visited this site. There was little left to indicate any icing plant -- maybe a few bricks at one end. My impression is that the neighborhood was undergoing new development of some sort, so the land has long since gone under the bulldozer. 7. This whole subject is, of course, relevant to the age of ice reefers. When these cars were replaced by mechanicals, the design of Through Freight Schedules would have been redrawn again. For example, by the 80's, the IHENs (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) were coming out of Chicago and bringing seemingly trainloads of mechanical reefers through Fort Wayne. I used to go down to Mike tower after work and watch them go through 1981-1983. What a show! Also -- was the kicker here that the Panhandle's terminal trackage, southwest of downtown Chicago, just simply closer and more convenient for gathering perishable traffic? Or was general traffic overload on the busier Fort Wayne line the more important factor? Help me out, guys. Is this the way it was? What evidence do we have one way or the other? Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West And getting ready to model the end of ice reefer traffic through Columbus in HO --part1_9a.29094953.2a72193c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/02 5:36:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 6
   Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 12:23:37 -0400
   From: Al Buchan <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle

Walt said> reefers via Columbus because of the ice station that existed
here

There was the ice station in Canton on the PFW&C, on the eastbound side
of the yard, across from Fairhope.

Al


Gize,

At least this is a cool subject for this time of year.  The south (even Kentucky) is hot right now...

It would be nice - just once - to get closure on the relative importance of these icing stations on the two routes.  As I understand (and I could be completely wet):
1.  Both the Fort Wayne route and the Panhandle route out of Chicago always had icing facilities available, from the beginning of reefer traffic.  I'm pretty sure the Fort Wayne once iced cars at Chicago, Fort Wayne, Crestline, Canton, and Allegheny City.  The Panhandle must have had similar facilities or arrangements at similar intervals along its Chicago, St. Louis, and Cincinnati lines.  Probably until (or well past) system consolidation in the early twenties, both routes iced their own traffic.
2.  At some point in time, the PRR had to decide whether to renew/expand icing capacity on both routes.
3.  Since the Panhandle had to carry St. Louis reefer traffic anyway, the through freight schedules were rigged so that the solid interchange reefer blocks out of Chicago also passed through Columbus.  Old Arranged Freight Schedules don't come out and say this traffic was taken off the Fort Wayne, but it's implied in their structure.  The idea was to create solid blocks of cars by destination, get the cars iced up fully, and then ramrod those blocks east into or past Enola without having to ice them again.  At least (I believe) that was the concept.
4.  A giant (train-length?) icing facility was created on the south side of Yard A in Columbus (this was the eastbound yard).  IIRC this was a little east of Fort Hayes, a downtown US Army post.  If this story holds water (bad pun), the capacity of this plant would be much larger than any established on the Fort Wayne side, or anywhere else on the Panhandle.
5.  Some historic maps lead you to believe that this ice facility replaced an older one on the same site owned by Armour.
6.  Some years ago, I visited this site.  There was little left to indicate any icing plant -- maybe a few bricks at one end.  My impression is that the neighborhood was undergoing new development of some sort, so the land has long since gone under the bulldozer.
7.  This whole subject is, of course, relevant to the age of ice reefers.  When these cars were replaced by mechanicals, the design of Through Freight Schedules would have been redrawn again.  For example, by the 80's, the IHENs (Indiana Harbor Belt to Enola) were coming out of Chicago and bringing seemingly trainloads of mechanical reefers through Fort Wayne.  I used to go down to Mike tower after work and watch them go through 1981-1983.  What a show!

Also -- was the kicker here that the Panhandle's terminal trackage, southwest of downtown Chicago, just simply closer and more convenient for gathering perishable traffic?  Or was general traffic overload on the busier Fort Wayne line the more important factor?

Help me out, guys.  Is this the way it was?  What evidence do we have one way or the other?

Thanks,

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West
And getting ready to model the end of ice reefer traffic through Columbus in HO --part1_9a.29094953.2a72193c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Branchline Kits Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 13:06:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2356E.6AD342E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All! Some questions about Branchline Kits. I have never built one. I have = no idea how difficult they are. So, questions: 1> They list a PRR X43B box car with 7' doors, etc. Stock nos. 1608 = single and 16084 for 4 pack. Are these accurate? Are they difficult to = build? As in - similar to Red Caboose, Proto 2000, etc. Here's an = example of what I consider difficult - Red Caboose has plastic grabs = which go Boing all over the place. I replace them with metal. But, = overall, a nice kit. About as difficult as I want to work on. I've = seen the Proto 2000 tank cars, and refuse to try to build one. = Westerfield, I don't even think about. I know they make nice cars, but = take a little too long to build - for me! 2> The Branchline Refrigerator cars (I know they're not PRR, but please = allow me to ask here). Are they accurate? For which RR? Are they the = same kits structure as the above mentioned box cars? Thanks in advance. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2356E.6AD342E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All!
 
Some questions about Branchline Kits.  I have never built = one.  I=20 have no idea how difficult they are.  So, questions:
 
1>  They list a PRR X43B box car with 7' doors, etc.  = Stock=20 nos. 1608 single and 16084 for 4 pack.  Are these accurate?  = Are they=20 difficult to build?  As in =97 similar to Red Caboose, Proto 2000, = etc. =20 Here's an example of what I consider difficult =97 Red Caboose has = plastic grabs=20 which go Boing all over the place.  I replace them with = metal.  But,=20 overall, a nice kit.  About as difficult as I want to work = on.  I've=20 seen the Proto 2000 tank cars, and refuse to try to build one. =20 Westerfield, I don't even think about.  I know they make nice cars, = but=20 take a little too long to build =97 for me!
 
2>  The Branchline Refrigerator cars (I know they're not = PRR, but=20 please allow me to ask here).  Are they accurate?  For which = RR? =20 Are they the same kits structure as the above mentioned box cars?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a = true=20 Pennsy Nut!
 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C2356E.6AD342E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:05:59 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Kits --------------69D843BE4D2ABC3237738C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In my opinion, the cars are slightly easier than Red Caboose. Quality control on parts has been spotty on the ones I've bought (missing and duplicate pieces). I don't believe the underframe is not correct for a car with a 7' door. At least some of the refrigerators are correct. They match prototpye photos in the Railway Cyclopedia series. There has been some criticism of the hatches. John Ryan PennsyNut wrote: > Hi All! Some questions about Branchline Kits. I have never built > one. I have no idea how difficult they are. So, questions: 1> They > list a PRR X43B box car with 7' doors, etc. Stock nos. 1608 single > and 16084 for 4 pack. Are these accurate? Are they difficult to > build? As in — similar to Red Caboose, Proto 2000, etc. Here's an > example of what I consider difficult — Red Caboose has plastic grabs > which go Boing all over the place. I replace them with metal. But, > overall, a nice kit. About as difficult as I want to work on. I've > seen the Proto 2000 tank cars, and refuse to try to build one. > Westerfield, I don't even think about. I know they make nice cars, > but take a little too long to build — for me! 2> The Branchline > Refrigerator cars (I know they're not PRR, but please allow me to ask > here). Are they accurate? For which RR? Are they the same kits > structure as the above mentioned box cars? Thanks in advance. Morgan > Bilbo > Ferroequinologist! > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! --------------69D843BE4D2ABC3237738C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In my opinion, the cars are slightly easier than Red Caboose.  Quality control on parts has been spotty on the ones I've bought (missing and duplicate pieces).  I don't believe the underframe is not correct for a car with a 7' door.

At least some of the refrigerators are correct.  They match prototpye photos in the Railway Cyclopedia series.  There has been some criticism of the hatches.

John Ryan

PennsyNut wrote:

Hi All! Some questions about Branchline Kits.  I have never built one.  I have no idea how difficult they are.  So, questions: 1>  They list a PRR X43B box car with 7' doors, etc.  Stock nos. 1608 single and 16084 for 4 pack.  Are these accurate?  Are they difficult to build?  As in — similar to Red Caboose, Proto 2000, etc.  Here's an example of what I consider difficult — Red Caboose has plastic grabs which go Boing all over the place.  I replace them with metal.  But, overall, a nice kit.  About as difficult as I want to work on.  I've seen the Proto 2000 tank cars, and refuse to try to build one.  Westerfield, I don't even think about.  I know they make nice cars, but take a little too long to build — for me! 2>  The Branchline Refrigerator cars (I know they're not PRR, but please allow me to ask here).  Are they accurate?  For which RR?  Are they the same kits structure as the above mentioned box cars? Thanks in advance. Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut!
--------------69D843BE4D2ABC3237738C80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:07:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Kits --part1_22.2c446de6.2a74576c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Morgan, Just like the Lays potato chip commercial, "bet you can't eat just one" -- the same is true for the Branchline kits, "bet you can't build just one". They are not difficcult to build. There obviously was a lot of engineering put into these kits as the parts fit perfectly. All of their cars that I have done have compared very closely to or dead on to photos of the prototype. The only area I know of that is mention as being a task is the fitting of the ends to the body. The body has flush plain ends that separate car ends are glued to. I have found that taking a ream, file or razor knife to break the edges on the holes in the body then apply Testor's liquid cement to the holes allows the ends to just press into a nice fit. I do both ends at the same time then place rubber bands around the car for about 15 minutes to let the cement set. Be careful to not get excess cement near the edges of the ends. The ends are nicely detailed. A sprue nipper, such as PBL's, or a fresh, sharp No. 11 Xacto blade and a gentle hand is necessary for removal of the fine detail pieces such as the under car brake rigging, ladders, grab irons and roof walk. These pieces are delicate requiring sharp tools and patience. I have done around a dozen of their box cars and have yet to encounter any problem with parts fitting right off of the sprue. I have found that IM and Red Cabooses' under body brake rigging usually requires some enlarging of the mounting holes to get it to fit without being stressed plus the grab iron holes need to be drilled out. The paint work is exceptional. In fact, their wood reefers have such fine scale lettering that it takes a magnifying glass to read it, and yes, it is "crisp n' clean" even under the glass. The offerings in the wood reefer line are just fantastic. They are also going to release a 1950's era REA express car and Pullman coaches, 8-1-2 and 10-1-2 sleepers, but these, although I understand are ready for production, have been delayed by some sort of business snafu with the die maker. They have listed both of the sleepers in three Pennsy names for each car. Branchline did have an "OOPS" with the original release of their 40' box car. Although the plans given the production people were accurate, a one foot error crept into the overall length of the car which carried through into the manufacturing. The error was not detected until after the cars hit the shelves. Branchline scrapped the body mold and made a new one to correct the error. Rather commendable in my estimation considering the cost to do this. In short, once you have built just one --- "bet you can't build just one"! Evan Leisey --part1_22.2c446de6.2a74576c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Morgan,

  Just like the Lays potato chip commercial,  "bet you can't eat just one"  -- the same is true for the Branchline kits,  "bet you can't build just one".   They are not difficcult to build.  There obviously was a lot of engineering put into these kits as the parts fit perfectly.   All of their cars that I have done have compared very closely to or dead on to photos of the prototype.  

 The only area I know of that is mention as being a task is the fitting of the ends to the body. The body has flush plain ends that separate car ends are glued to.  I have found that taking a ream, file or razor knife to break the edges on the holes in the body then apply Testor's liquid cement to the holes allows the ends to just press into a nice fit.  I do both ends at the same time then place rubber bands around the car for about 15 minutes to let the cement set.  Be careful to not get excess cement near the edges of the ends.  The ends are nicely detailed.

 A sprue nipper, such as PBL's, or a fresh, sharp No. 11 Xacto blade and a gentle hand is necessary for removal of the fine detail pieces such as the under car brake rigging, ladders, grab irons and roof walk.  These pieces are delicate requiring sharp tools and patience.  I have done around a dozen of their box cars and have yet to encounter any problem with parts fitting right off of the sprue.  I have found that IM and Red Cabooses' under body brake rigging usually requires some enlarging of the mounting holes to get it to fit without being stressed plus the grab iron holes need to be drilled out.

 The paint work is exceptional.  In fact,  their wood reefers have such fine scale lettering that it takes a magnifying glass to read it, and yes, it is "crisp n' clean" even under the glass.  The offerings in the wood reefer line are just fantastic.

 They are also going to release a 1950's era REA express car and Pullman coaches, 8-1-2 and 10-1-2 sleepers, but these, although I understand are ready for production, have been delayed by some sort of business snafu with the die maker.   They have listed both of the sleepers in three Pennsy names for each car.

   Branchline did have an "OOPS" with the original release of their 40' box car.  Although the plans given the production people were accurate,  a one foot error crept into the overall length of the car which carried through into the manufacturing.  The error was not detected until after the cars hit the shelves.  Branchline scrapped the body mold and made a new one to correct the error.  Rather commendable in my estimation considering the cost to do this.
 
  In short, once you have built just one --- "bet you can't build just one"!

Evan Leisey
--part1_22.2c446de6.2a74576c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 17:40:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Crestline roundhouse wall collapses From: prrq2 As many of you know, there is an attempt being made to save the Crestline roundhouse, and that it is in rather poor condition, to say the least! Time is its worst enemy, and it is continuing to deteriorate at an alarming rate. CRPS President, Ron Widman, visited the roundhouse last weekend and discovered the collapse of the outside wall to stall #30, the home stall for the S-1. This happened in just the past couple of weeks. He said in part: "The brick that is covered on stall #30 from the beginning of the stall, going west to the length of the stall. The section of brick just peeled off and fell south onto the ground. The concrete sub structure is still there, the brick just came off. The wood frame windows fell off and now there is a rather large gaping hole where the brick and windows were." Sad news indeed. You can see the portion of the wall in a photo from last winter. Huge cracks can easily be seen in the photo, and it is not hard to imagine what it now looks like. http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/erh5.2001.jpg.html -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline, Ohio http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ Board of Directors, The Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 08:16:44 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Re: Crestline roundhouse wall collapses Re> discovered the collapse of the outside wall to stall #30, This is what we in the historic preservation business call "demolition by neglect." It's a sorry practice that I have seen used by some units of government(mostly municipalities and counties)that own historic properties and don't want to do anything with them. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:07:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Branchline Kits Morgan, There are a couple of tricks to these cars and if you email me offlist I will give you some tips. But they are some of the finest fits to arrive in HO Scale in some time... And yes the underframes for the 7-foot car are correct. You have a choice of roof color and of course the red is correct and the black roof is a rare, rare beast. Pick the Red Roof. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 01:10:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] #... gauge wire --0-1235980361-1027930246=:29554 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I have some problems with # .. gauge wire. I use a different metric system (living in Europe) and therefore I don't know were they all stand for. Is it: the bigger the number the smaller the wire? How do you messure this? I have to use #20 and #26 wire. Who can help me out? Thanks, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better --0-1235980361-1027930246=:29554 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi,

I have some problems with # .. gauge wire. I use a different metric system (living in Europe) and therefore I don't know were they all stand for. Is it: the bigger the number the smaller the wire? How do you messure this? I have to use #20 and #26 wire. Who can help me out?

Thanks, Geoffrey


Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better --0-1235980361-1027930246=:29554-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 06:22:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] #... gauge wire From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3110768577_5177596 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/29/02 4:10 AM, "Geoffrey Van Dooren" wrote: > I have some problems with # .. gauge wire. I use a different metric system > (living in Europe) and therefore I don't know were they all stand for. Is it: > the bigger the number the smaller the wire? How do you messure this? I have to > use #20 and #26 wire. Who can help me out? > Higher number is smaller wire. For DCC systems, power bus is usually 12-14 g. Feeders are then 18-22 g. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3110768577_5177596 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] #... gauge wire On 7/29/02 4:10 AM, "Geoffrey Van Dooren" &l= t;geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have some problems with # .. gaug= e wire. I use a different metric system (living in Europe) and therefore I d= on't know were they all stand for. Is it: the bigger the number the smaller = the wire? How do you messure this? I have to use #20 and #26 wire. Who can h= elp me out?


Higher number is smaller wire.

For DCC systems, power bus is usually 12-14 g. Feeders are then 18-22 g. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3110768577_5177596-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 07:57:16 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] #... gauge wire Geoff: The colonies use AWG sizing: American Wire Gauge. And yes bigger numbers are smaller size, much like drill bits. #12 is used for 120v 20 amp house wiring, #14 for 15 amps, #18 for small household appliances, #22 or #24 for telephone and computer cables. The following link has a nice table of metric sizes and resistances. [must be european since they used commas (,) not decimals for separators!] Hope this helps, Jim McDaniel, recently pulling lots of wire in a new house in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:24:30 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] #... gauge wire jim - Where's the link? - godfrey hall "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > Geoff: > > The colonies use AWG sizing: American Wire Gauge. And yes bigger numbers > are smaller size, much like drill bits. > > #12 is used for 120v 20 amp house wiring, #14 for 15 amps, #18 for small > household appliances, #22 or #24 for telephone and computer cables. > > The following link has a nice table of metric sizes and resistances. > [must be european since they used commas (,) not decimals for > separators!] > > Hope this helps, > > Jim McDaniel, recently pulling lots of wire in a new house in Delmarva > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:28:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] #... gauge wire I found this table in about ten seconds using Google: http://users.utu.fi/slaur/awg_metric.html #18 AWG is 1.02 mm diameter #20 .81 #22 .51 #26 .40 Cheers! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:48:20 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] #... gauge wire Here's Another: http://www.coilcraft.com/awg.cfm Also: http://dmoz.org/Science/Technology/Electronics/Reference/Wire_Tables/ lists several. Godfrey Hall wrote: > jim - Where's the link? - godfrey hall > > "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > >>Geoff: >> >>The colonies use AWG sizing: American Wire Gauge. And yes bigger numbers >>are smaller size, much like drill bits. >> >>#12 is used for 120v 20 amp house wiring, #14 for 15 amps, #18 for small >>household appliances, #22 or #24 for telephone and computer cables. >> >>The following link has a nice table of metric sizes and resistances. >>[must be european since they used commas (,) not decimals for >>separators!] >> >>Hope this helps, >> >>Jim McDaniel, recently pulling lots of wire in a new house in Delmarva best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Changes over time in Arranged Freight Schedules In a message dated 7/27/02 2:10:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:33:36 -0500 > From: Randy Williamson > Subject: Re: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle > > Rich, > > They must have changed it from the 1955 version I am working with. They > make connections at Logansport with the Effner trains. > > Randy > > At 10:25 PM 7/26/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 07/26/2002 6:02:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >pennsy@vbe.com writes: > > > > > > > CG-2 does not originate in Effner. It originates at 59th St. yard in > > > Chicago. I am working on the schedule right now for CG-2 for my > website. > > > They do major switching in Logansport. > > > > > > > > > >Randy: > > > >I am looking at the makeup of trains on Mark Bej's site which I gave the > url > >for in an earlier post. He has the CG2 originating in Effner, IN in Oct > >1960. Mark has transcribed all the train makeup information from a PRR > >document. That is the source I was using. > > > >Rich Orr > Alas, the originating and terminating points of many symbol freights changed over time. It was quite common for a new Arranged Freight Schedule to: 1. cut back an eastbound through from Enola to Conway 2. cut back a train from Greenville to Enola 2. change origination from Chicago to Logansport 3. move origination from 59th to 55th Street Chicago, or vice versa. This can be extremely frustrating to the new fan, who logically expects these PRR symbols to define a set of end points. But it wasn't until Conrail that train symbols became even marginally reliable -- for example IHEN meant the train originated on the Indiana Harbor Belt (at Blue Island?) and terminated in Enola's eastbound yard. Even then, this didn't promise that it passed through Fort Wayne instead of Columbus. It's obvious there's a lot of history here, lost in the office (Operations Planning?) that designed the Arranged Freight network. The bits of Arranged Freight Schedules left to us make a fascinating study, but always be aware of the date of your data. Your mileage WILL vary (now there's a pun). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/7dY7FD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 11:13:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] Changes over time in Arranged Freight Schedules --part1_10e.14d36cdb.2a76b598_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/27/02 2:10:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:33:36 -0500 > From: Randy Williamson > Subject: Re: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle > > Rich, > > They must have changed it from the 1955 version I am working with. They > make connections at Logansport with the Effner trains. > > Randy > > At 10:25 PM 7/26/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >In a message dated 07/26/2002 6:02:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >pennsy@vbe.com writes: > > > > > > > CG-2 does not originate in Effner. It originates at 59th St. yard in > > > Chicago. I am working on the schedule right now for CG-2 for my > website. > > > They do major switching in Logansport. > > > > > > > > > >Randy: > > > >I am looking at the makeup of trains on Mark Bej's site which I gave the > url > >for in an earlier post. He has the CG2 originating in Effner, IN in Oct > >1960. Mark has transcribed all the train makeup information from a PRR > >document. That is the source I was using. > > > >Rich Orr > Alas, the originating and terminating points of many symbol freights changed over time. It was quite common for a new Arranged Freight Schedule to: 1. cut back an eastbound through from Enola to Conway 2. cut back a train from Greenville to Enola 2. change origination from Chicago to Logansport 3. move origination from 59th to 55th Street Chicago, or vice versa. This can be extremely frustrating to the new fan, who logically expects these PRR symbols to define a set of end points. But it wasn't until Conrail that train symbols became even marginally reliable -- for example IHEN meant the train originated on the Indiana Harbor Belt (at Blue Island?) and terminated in Enola's eastbound yard. Even then, this didn't promise that it passed through Fort Wayne instead of Columbus. It's obvious there's a lot of history here, lost in the office (Operations Planning?) that designed the Arranged Freight network. The bits of Arranged Freight Schedules left to us make a fascinating study, but always be aware of the date of your data. Your mileage WILL vary (now there's a pun). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_10e.14d36cdb.2a76b598_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/27/02 2:10:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 10
   Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 21:33:36 -0500
   From: Randy Williamson <pennsy@vbe.com>
Subject: Re: FW: FtWayne vs Panhandle

Rich,

They must have changed it from the 1955 version I am working with.  They
make connections at Logansport with the Effner trains.

Randy

At 10:25 PM 7/26/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 07/26/2002 6:02:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>pennsy@vbe.com writes:
>
>
> > CG-2 does not originate in Effner.  It originates at 59th St. yard in
> > Chicago.  I am working on the schedule right now for CG-2 for my website.
> > They do major switching in Logansport.
> >
> >
>
>Randy:
>
>I am looking at the makeup of trains on Mark Bej's site which I gave the url
>for in an earlier post.  He has the CG2 originating in Effner, IN in Oct
>1960.  Mark has transcribed all the train makeup information from a PRR
>document.  That is the source I was using.
>
>Rich Orr


Alas, the originating and terminating points of many symbol freights changed over time.  It was quite common for a new Arranged Freight Schedule to:
1.  cut back an eastbound through from Enola to Conway
2.  cut back a train from Greenville to Enola
2.  change origination from Chicago to Logansport
3.  move origination from 59th to 55th Street Chicago, or vice versa.

This can be extremely frustrating to the new fan, who logically expects these PRR symbols to define a set of end points.  But it wasn't until Conrail that train symbols became even marginally reliable -- for example IHEN meant the train originated on the Indiana Harbor Belt (at Blue Island?) and terminated in Enola's eastbound yard.  Even then, this didn't promise that it passed through Fort Wayne instead of Columbus.

It's obvious there's a lot of history here, lost in the office (Operations Planning?) that designed the Arranged Freight network.  The bits of Arranged Freight Schedules left to us make a fascinating study, but always be aware of the date of your data.  Your mileage WILL vary (now there's a pun).


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_10e.14d36cdb.2a76b598_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:27:33 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Ted Rose obit Friends: It's my sad duty to report the death, after a brief illness, of Ted Rose, widely known railroad artist, of Santa Fe, N.M. He died on Friday, July 26, after a bout with cancer that had attacked his spinal fluid. Born in 1940 in Milwaukee, Ted was an amazing talent who could coax both mood and detail from opaque watercolor. Earlier this year, I was elated when he kindly allowed me to use his painting, "Along the Susquehanna," for the cover of my book on the history of Rockville Bridge. His 2000 Indiana University book "In the Traces: Railroad Paintings of Ted Rose" contained 61 images, including some that showed PRR I1, M1, and H9 steam engines. His painting "Pennsy Men" appeared in the May-June 1987 issue of the now-departed Railway & Locomotive Preservation magazine, showing a K4, I1, and J1 at Columbus, Ohio. Ted was a member of the American Watercolor Society and the New Mexico Watercolor Society. Besides railroad art, he also painted scenes that captured roadside culture and grain elevators. Cards may be sent to Ted's wife, Polly Rose, at Box 266, Santa Fe, NM 87504 --Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:46:07 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Ted Rose obit Hey Yuze Gize, It is a sad day for all of us in the hobby... I never met Ted Rose but last October in Naperville, Bruce Meyer of EMD fame along with Bob Hundman I had the opportunity to hear rail fan stories from both of them over dinner. The stories just flowed, and many very funny ones I might add. I think that Ted has made a tremendous impact on all us and we may not even know it, but some like Denny Anspaugh are fortunate to have been touched/blessed with Ted's special talents. I for one will miss Ted as he takes that last train home. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 16:27:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Microscale Products --part1_dc.1aabc2b8.2a76ff19_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have recently tried using this lines Flat, Satin and Gloss coatings. I have used their other products with great success but these three have left me flat (no pun intended). A batch of Westerfield PRR containers is currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the mess left from the above finishes. The finishes were brushed on. Is there some trick to using these products so that they don't leave a rough, milky finish? Has anyone successfully used these products. If so, what is the secret? Thank you, Evan Leisey --part1_dc.1aabc2b8.2a76ff19_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  I have recently tried using this lines Flat,  Satin and Gloss coatings.  I have used their other products with great success but these three have left me flat (no pun intended).   A batch of Westerfield PRR containers is currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the mess left from the above finishes.  The finishes were brushed  on.  Is there some trick to using these products so that they don't leave a rough,  milky finish?

 Has anyone successfully used these products.  If so,  what is the secret?

Thank you,

Evan Leisey --part1_dc.1aabc2b8.2a76ff19_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago chapter PPRT&HS Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:02:22 +0000 If there is anyone else who hasn't resent an e mail to me regarding starting a Chicago chapter please e mail me. We currently have about ten people and may be able to get this off the ground very shortly. How high is a different story for now. thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:09:19 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] #... gauge wire I will try again.... http://www.hardwarebook.net/table/AWG.html Jim McDaniel, suffering from creeping senility in Delmarva (it's the heat!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale Products Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 17:01:11 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C23721.8A802EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan and the List: I ran into results similar what you encountered: a rough, milky finish. I= switched over to Polly Scale water based finishes: Clear Gloss Finish (404100) Flat Finish (404106) Satin Finish (404103) I have been very impressed with Polly; it produces a uniform and smooth f= inished. I get results identical to my Testors Lacquer finishes. I hope that this helps you out. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:32 PM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Microscale Products =20 I have recently tried using this lines Flat, Satin and Gloss coatings. = I have used their other products with great success but these three have= left me flat (no pun intended). A batch of Westerfield PRR containers = is currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the mess left from t= he above finishes. The finishes were brushed on. Is there some trick t= o using these products so that they don't leave a rough, milky finish? =20 Has anyone successfully used these products. If so, what is the secret= ? =20 Thank you, =20 Evan Leisey =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C23721.8A802EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan and the L= ist:
 
I ran into results similar wh= at you encountered: a rough, milky finish. I switched over to P= olly Scale water based finishes:
 
Clear Gloss= Finish (404100)
Flat Finish (404106)
Satin Finish = (404103)
 
I have been very impressed with Pol= ly; it produces a uniform and smooth finished. I get resul= ts identical to my Testors Lacquer finishes.
 <= /DIV>
I hope that this helps you out.
 
<= DIV> 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana 
=
 
----- Original Message -----
From: RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Mon= day, July 29, 2002 3:32 PM
To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Microscale Products
&= nbsp;
 I have recen= tly tried using this lines Flat,  Satin and Gloss coatings.  I = have used their other products with great success but these three have le= ft me flat (no pun intended).   A batch of Westerfield PRR cont= ainers is currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the mess left= from the above finishes.  The finishes were brushed  on.  = ;Is there some trick to using these products so that they don't leave a r= ough,  milky finish?

 Has anyone successfully used thes= e products.  If so,  what is the secret?

Thank you,
Evan Leisey
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C23721.8A802EA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale Products Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 21:23:33 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C23746.3173B460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends: I believe the milky finish comes from water vapor molecules trapped = under the finish. Try keeping the model warm in a cardboard box with a = light bulb immediately after painting, to allow the paint to dry = thoroughly. Don't get the plastic too hot. Use a rheostat/dimmer on = the bulb if it gets too hot. Try a junk plastic car first 'till you get = the temperature right. Lew Matt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ted Andrews=20 To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com ; PRR Talk=20 Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale Products Evan and the List: I ran into results similar what you encountered: a rough, milky = finish. I switched over to Polly Scale water based finishes: Clear Gloss Finish (404100) Flat Finish (404106) Satin Finish (404103) I have been very impressed with Polly; it produces a uniform and = smooth finished. I get results identical to my Testors Lacquer finishes. I hope that this helps you out. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:32 PM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Microscale Products I have recently tried using this lines Flat, Satin and Gloss = coatings. I have used their other products with great success but these = three have left me flat (no pun intended). A batch of Westerfield PRR = containers is currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the mess = left from the above finishes. The finishes were brushed on. Is there = some trick to using these products so that they don't leave a rough, = milky finish?=20 Has anyone successfully used these products. If so, what is the = secret?=20 Thank you,=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C23746.3173B460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Friends:
 
I believe the milky finish comes from water=20 vapor molecules trapped under the finish.  Try keeping = the model=20 warm in a cardboard box with a light bulb immediately after painting, to = allow=20 the paint to dry thoroughly.  Don't get the plastic too hot.  = Use a=20 rheostat/dimmer on the bulb if it gets too hot.  Try a junk plastic = car=20 first 'till you get the temperature right.
 
Lew Matt
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ted = Andrews=20
To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PassengerCarList@yahoogr= oups.com=20 ; PRR = Talk=20
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 = 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale=20 Products

Evan and the List:
 
I ran into results similar what you encountered: a = rough,=20 milky finish. I switched over to Polly Scale water based = finishes:
 
Clear Gloss Finish (404100)
Flat Finish (404106)
Satin Finish (404103)
 
I have been very impressed with Polly; it produces a=20 uniform and smooth finished. I get results identical = to my=20 Testors Lacquer finishes.
 
I hope that this helps you out.
 
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 = 3:32=20 PM
To: = PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Microscale=20 Products
 
 I = have=20 recently tried using this lines Flat,  Satin and Gloss = coatings.=20  I have used their other products with great success but these = three=20 have left me flat (no pun intended).   A batch of = Westerfield PRR=20 containers is currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the = mess=20 left from the above finishes.  The finishes were brushed =  on.=20  Is there some trick to using these products so that they don't = leave a=20 rough,  milky finish?

 Has anyone successfully = used these=20 products.  If so,  what is the secret?

Thank you,=20

Evan Leisey =
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C23746.3173B460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:57:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PennsyWest] Changes over time in Arranged Freight Hi Rick, You speak the truth so well about changes in the schedules from year to year. Right now I am working on a Panhandle Division Freight Schedule from 1952 and can see the changes from 1952 to 1955. New trains added. Old trains discontinued. Schedules changed by 8 hours. It really is fascinating on how much can change in so short of time. I hope to be adding these schedules to my website in the near future. Randy http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/7dY7FD/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:57:46 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Changes over time in Arranged Freight Hi Rick, You speak the truth so well about changes in the schedules from year to year. Right now I am working on a Panhandle Division Freight Schedule from 1952 and can see the changes from 1952 to 1955. New trains added. Old trains discontinued. Schedules changed by 8 hours. It really is fascinating on how much can change in so short of time. I hope to be adding these schedules to my website in the near future. Randy http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Changes over time in Arranged Freight Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:53:40 -0400 List, Working in the PRR Traffic Department from 1962 to 1968 (and beyond with PC), I recall that each one of us in Sales maintained a looseleaf Through Freight Schedules book. We got revisions monthly, and they ran from a couple of pages to 50 pages or more. Not all changed times or blocks, many just changed connections at origin, intermediate, or destination yards, but there WAS constant change. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Williamson" To: ; ; ; Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 9:57 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Changes over time in Arranged Freight Schedules > Hi Rick, > > You speak the truth so well about changes in the schedules from year to > year. Right now I am working on a Panhandle Division Freight Schedule from > 1952 and can see the changes from 1952 to 1955. New trains added. Old > trains discontinued. Schedules changed by 8 hours. It really is > fascinating on how much can change in so short of time. I hope to be > adding these schedules to my website in the near future. > > Randy > http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Microscale Products Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:23:53 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2375F.62680440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit August Model Railroader issue pgs 102-105 on decaling. Check it out. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Lewis J. Matt PhD Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 9:24 PM To: Ted Andrews; RDG2124@aol.com; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale Products Friends: I believe the milky finish comes from water vapor molecules trapped under the finish. Try keeping the model warm in a cardboard box with a light bulb immediately after painting, to allow the paint to dry thoroughly. Don't get the plastic too hot. Use a rheostat/dimmer on the bulb if it gets too hot. Try a junk plastic car first 'till you get the temperature right. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Andrews To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com ; PRR Talk Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale Products Evan and the List: I ran into results similar what you encountered: a rough, milky finish. I switched over to Polly Scale water based finishes: Clear Gloss Finish (404100) Flat Finish (404106) Satin Finish (404103) I have been very impressed with Polly; it produces a uniform and smooth finished. I get results identical to my Testors Lacquer finishes. I hope that this helps you out. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 3:32 PM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Microscale Products I have recently tried using this lines Flat, Satin and Gloss coatings. I have used their other products with great success but these three have left me flat (no pun intended). A batch of Westerfield PRR containers is currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the mess left from the above finishes. The finishes were brushed on. Is there some trick to using these products so that they don't leave a rough, milky finish? Has anyone successfully used these products. If so, what is the secret? Thank you, Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2375F.62680440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
August Model = Railroader=20 issue pgs 102-105 on decaling.  Check it out.

Greg = V 
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Lewis J. Matt = PhD
Sent:=20 Monday, July 29, 2002 9:24 PM
To: Ted Andrews; = RDG2124@aol.com;=20 PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR]=20 Microscale Products

Friends:
 
I believe the milky finish comes from water=20 vapor molecules trapped under the finish.  Try keeping = the=20 model warm in a cardboard box with a light bulb immediately after = painting, to=20 allow the paint to dry thoroughly.  Don't get the plastic too = hot. =20 Use a rheostat/dimmer on the bulb if it gets too hot.  Try a junk = plastic=20 car first 'till you get the temperature right.
 
Lew Matt
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ted=20 Andrews
To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com= =20 ; PRR = Talk=20
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 = 6:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Microscale = Products

Evan and the List:
 
I ran into results similar what you encountered: = a=20 rough, milky finish. I switched over to Polly Scale water based = finishes:
 
Clear Gloss Finish (404100)
Flat Finish (404106)
Satin Finish (404103)
 
I have been very impressed with Polly; it produces a=20 uniform and smooth finished. I get results identical=20 to my Testors Lacquer finishes.
 
I hope that this helps you out.
 
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 = 3:32=20 PM
To: = PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Microscale=20 Products
 
 I have = recently tried=20 using this lines Flat,  Satin and Gloss coatings.  I = have used=20 their other products with great success but these three have left = me flat=20 (no pun intended).   A batch of Westerfield PRR = containers is=20 currently soaking in a Pine Sol solution to strip the mess left = from the=20 above finishes.  The finishes were brushed  on.  Is = there=20 some trick to using these products so that they don't leave a = rough,=20  milky finish?

 Has anyone successfully used = these=20 products.  If so,  what is the secret?

Thank = you,=20

Evan Leisey =
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C2375F.62680440-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 07:59:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Microscale Finishes --part1_166.11656332.2a77d98b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the help on the Flat, Satin and Gloss coats. The consensus of opinion is that these are not the best and one should stick with the line that the paint was from. As far as following the direction to use a soft brush, no amount of thinning or using a heat lamp to set it has yielded acceptable results. To be fair to the product, I still plan to test these with an airbrush -- on old junk cars of course. Will post the results. Evan Leisey --part1_166.11656332.2a77d98b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all for the help on the Flat, Satin and Gloss coats.  The consensus of opinion is that these are not the best and one should stick with the line that the paint was from.

   As far as following the direction to use a soft brush,  no amount of thinning or using a heat lamp to set it has yielded acceptable results.  To be fair to the product, I still plan to test these with an airbrush -- on old junk cars of course.  Will post the results.

 Evan Leisey

--part1_166.11656332.2a77d98b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 13:16:18 +0000 Here is the latest. We have at least ten people who are interested so we could start right now. BUT, The national organization has agreed to run a gratis notice in the Keystone (winter edition - Fall edition is already set) to alert others. In addition Al Buchan has posted the intent elsewhere and will have it in the new e mail from the society that will be coming out shortly. I intend to wait for a month or so until we see the interest from others who might want the priveledge of being "charter" members. I do not anticipate waiting for the announcement in the winter Keystone. It is now the start of August. I have saved everyone's e mail addresses and think we should plan to meet in Spetember or October. If anyone knows a place we could meet for free that could accomadate roughly 25 people we could have an organizational meeting in 4-6 weeks. That meeting would be to establish a meeting place, number of meetings, officers, dues, programs, layout visits and sign a charter. We also need to consider where in the area to meet. My feelings are south of the city or into Indiana as that is PRR country and could allow some excursions. I may be able to get us a church location on Halsted St. south of the Tristate in Homewood, Illinois. I am planning toward Saturday 9/21/02 at this point unless anyone has anything different they are proposing. Hold your ideas for the meeting unless it is about a meeting place you know of and we can talk about them at that time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:21:09 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Ted Rose will RIP My good friend Denny Anspaugh (danspach@macnexus.org) writes: > We had commissioned him (Ted Rose)to do another depicting my brother and I as children in 1946 lineside on the Burlington's Aurora raceway watching the morning parade of eastbound CBQ, NP, and GN limiteds heading to the CUS barn. I guess we will now never see this.< Denny, Truely a tremendous book and I thank Ed and Barbra DeRouin for introducing it to me. My art teacher in college reminded me that memories are the minds eye and the minds eye is the best canvas for any subject. Your painting already exist... And we are all able to visualize it with you, it is a shame it can't be applied to canvas... we will have to use our minds eye. Farewell Ted Rose, farewell... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:01:18 -0400 From: Dave McNeil Subject: [PRR] W32 Virus Warning This is being sent to all addressees in my address book. The W32 virus worm has popped up on my computer, it was received in an email message. While it will not harm your computer, it will attaches itself to your address book and will send out spurious messages without your knowledge, attaching itself to the messages sent. Norton anti virus and other such programs will detect and isolate the worm and any infected files received. The file name will be "W32.?????????@mm", the ?? can be almost any word or words. Use the "search for files or folders" function in the Start Menu to see if any of these files are on your hard drive. If you have an anti virus program, make sure it's setup to protect your incoming email. and UPDATED frequently to have the latest virus descriptions available. Best regards to all, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:14:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] Wire & Steel Screw Gauges In the early days when the mills often made steel and figured out later what they had the "Gauge" was a 1" caliper and the Gauge of the steel was the number of sheets of steel counted between the calipers: ie an "8 Guage" was an 1/8 of an inch an "16 Guage" was a 1/16" and, as the numbers went up the thickness of the steel got thiner - I assume that wire sizes originated in a similar fashion. In the nut and bolt business screws and bolts originally started up from 3/16" and a 1/4" - but the sizes "charted" went down by 64ths - I don't know about you, but I find it difficult enough to count backwards by 1/16ths, let alone 32nds and 64ths. Consequently, screw sizes were numbered backwards from 1/4" (sometimes referred to as a "#14") and 3/16" became #10..... Don't ask me to convert any of this to Millimeters. My feeling is that we won the War and when we sent all that "Marshall Plan" money over there we should have told the French, Germans and the rest "This is a dollar bill - it's 6" long, LEARN THAT" Dick Ross, Cleveland. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:28:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Oriental Limited From: Jerry Britton There's been mention on several lists over the past couple of days about the status of Oriental Limited. Oriental is past due on PRR FF-2 electrics in N scale and on 1948 Broadway Limited cars in HO scale. Their web site has been down for three months, they haven't returned e-mails to many prospective customers and at least some dealers (myself included), and have not done any dealer mailings. As many know, Broadway Limited Imports is affiliated (an offshoot of) Oriental. Today I was able to reach Tony Wenzel at BLI. Tony states that Oriental Limited is indeed alive, but has taken a back seat due to several factors... ...all energies are being placed on BLI. The first product, the NYC J1e, was delayed due to several issues. These appear to have been resolved, but it is imperative that their first product be a good show. ...an on-going dispute with their previously web provider which has resulted in their domain name being "hijacked" and "held ransom". Tony tells me to maintain reservations and market for Oriental Limited ( a good sign!) and that the BLI PRR M1 project is STILL ON TRACK for December delivery!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:52:08 -0400 Friends: I was lucky enough to pick up a brand new, unopened VHS copy of the Alfred Hitchcock movie, North by Northwest this morning at a flea market for $2.00. The beginning of the movie had a lot of nice NYC sleeping car scenes, both interior and exterior of the route from NY city to Chicago. The Hudson River trackage scenes were breathtaking, as was the F7's lightning bolt paint. The very last scene in the movie depicts our heroes, Cary Grant and Jill St. John going back to New York from South Dakota by train. The interior scenes were the same as earlier, inside a NYC roomette, perhaps filmed with the earlier NYC scenes. The exterior scene was one that left me with many questions. The closing scene showed - behind "The End" titles - a bloody nose Southern F3 A unit doubled back to back with a gray Southern F3 A, pulling a NYC 70' streamlined baggage car and several PRR streamlined, smoothside coaches with the multiple stripe scheme. The train was on a single track line entering a single portal tunnel at speed. Anybody want to hazard a guess where this scene was shot? Anyone know the story behind the Southern, NYC, PRR mixture? Lew Matt Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:50:05 -0400 Lew, "SOUTHERN Bloody nose F3A unit??????? Southern's were green and aluminum (gray) or black and aluminum. Are you sure it wasn't Southern Pacific? Their Diesel power had "bloody noses" on grey units from the mid 1950's. I suspect the scene was shot in the LA area on SP with eastern road cars that just happened to be in LAUPT. The baggage was probably a run-through, and the PRR cars from a charter trip. Just a guess though.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest > Friends: > > I was lucky enough to pick up a brand new, unopened VHS copy of the Alfred > Hitchcock movie, North by Northwest this morning at a flea market for $2.00. > The beginning of the movie had a lot of nice NYC sleeping car scenes, both > interior and exterior of the route from NY city to Chicago. The Hudson > River trackage scenes were breathtaking, as was the F7's lightning bolt > paint. The very last scene in the movie depicts our heroes, Cary Grant and > Jill St. John going back to New York from South Dakota by train. The > interior scenes were the same as earlier, inside a NYC roomette, perhaps > filmed with the earlier NYC scenes. The exterior scene was one that left me > with many questions. The closing scene showed - behind "The End" titles - > a bloody nose Southern F3 A unit doubled back to back with a gray Southern > F3 A, pulling a NYC 70' streamlined baggage car and several PRR streamlined, > smoothside coaches with the multiple stripe scheme. The train was on a > single track line entering a single portal tunnel at speed. Anybody want to > hazard a guess where this scene was shot? Anyone know the story behind the > Southern, NYC, PRR mixture? > > Lew Matt > > > > Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems > Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:00:42 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2381C.EDEF06E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lew and the List: I believe that "The End" photo was the only part of the movie that was no= t proto typical from a railroad standpoint. The Southern Pacific does not= go into South Dakota or into Chicago. (Perhaps Cary Grant and Eva Marie = Saint have thier honeymoon in California before heading back east). I wil= l need to review the end of the movie to see what tyoe of front end equip= ment was behind the SP unit. At any rate, large parts of the movie were shot in southern CA if they di= d not have to be on location. Hence the SP passenger train at the end of = the movie. For example, the famous crop duster scene was to take place on= US 41 about an hour and a half south of Chicago. That would have located= the scene just south of Kentland, Indiana where the PRR (Logansport - Ef= fner) line crossed NYC (Indiana Harbor - Danville) line. Instead, this sc= ene was shot outside of Bakersfield, Califorina. =20 One funny story about the crop duster scene. Hitchcock was trying in vain= to get Cary Grant to act anxious and scared during the takes. Hitchcock = thought that he was not getting through until he got some "help" from an = unexpecting acting coach. While Grant was crouched down among the cornsta= lks hiding from the crop duster, a small tarantula darts out from under a= leaf and craws onto Grants hand. Grant is startled by the incident, whic= h was caught on film and cut into the movie. Apparently Hitchcock finally= got Grant motivated to act scared! Ted Andrews (a.k.a. George Kaplan) =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:07 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest =20 Friends: I was lucky enough to pick up a brand new, unopened VHS copy of the Alfre= d Hitchcock movie, North by Northwest this morning at a flea market for $2.= 00. The beginning of the movie had a lot of nice NYC sleeping car scenes, bot= h interior and exterior of the route from NY city to Chicago. The Hudson River trackage scenes were breathtaking, as was the F7's lightning bolt paint. The very last scene in the movie depicts our heroes, Cary Grant a= nd Jill St. John going back to New York from South Dakota by train. The interior scenes were the same as earlier, inside a NYC roomette, perhaps filmed with the earlier NYC scenes. The exterior scene was one that left= me with many questions. The closing scene showed - behind "The End" titles = - a bloody nose Southern F3 A unit doubled back to back with a gray Souther= n F3 A, pulling a NYC 70' streamlined baggage car and several PRR streamlin= ed, smoothside coaches with the multiple stripe scheme. The train was on a single track line entering a single portal tunnel at speed. Anybody want= to hazard a guess where this scene was shot? Anyone know the story behind t= he Southern, NYC, PRR mixture? Lew Matt Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2381C.EDEF06E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lew and the Li= st:
 
I believe that "The End" photo = ;was the only part of the movie that was not proto typical from a railroa= d standpoint. The Southern Pacific does not go into South Dakota or into = Chicago. (Perhaps Cary Grant and Eva Marie Saint have thier&nbs= p;honeymoon in California before heading back east). I will need to revie= w the end of the movie to see what tyoe of front end equipment was behind= the SP unit.
 
At any rate, large parts of th= e movie were shot in southern CA if they did not have to be on = location. Hence the SP passenger train at the end of the movie. For = example, the famous crop duster scene was to take place on US 4= 1 about an hour and a half south of Chicago. That would ha= ve located the scene just south of Kentland, Indiana where the = PRR (Logansport - Effner) line crossed NYC (Indiana Harbor - Danvill= e) line. Instead, this scene was shot outside of Bakersfield, C= aliforina. 
 
One funny story about the c= rop duster scene. Hitchcock was trying in vain to get Cary Grant to act a= nxious and scared during the takes. Hitchcock thought that he was not get= ting through until he got some "help" from an unexpecting acting coach. W= hile Grant was crouched down among the cornstalks hiding from the crop du= ster, a small tarantula darts out from under a leaf and craws onto Grants= hand. Grant is startled by the incident, which was caught on film and cu= t into the movie. Apparently Hitchcock finally got Grant motivated to act= scared!
 
Ted Andrews
(a.k.a. Geor= ge Kaplan)
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 200= 2 10:07 PM
To: PRR-Talk LIST=
Subject: [PRR] Movie: North= by Northwest
 
Friends:

I was lucky enough t= o pick up a brand new, unopened VHS copy of the Alfred
Hitchcock movie= , North by Northwest this morning at a flea market for $2.00.
The begi= nning of the movie had a lot of nice NYC sleeping car scenes, both
int= erior and exterior of the route from NY city to Chicago.  The Hudson=
River trackage scenes were breathtaking, as was the F7's lightning bo= lt
paint.  The very last scene in the movie depicts our heroes, C= ary Grant and
Jill St. John going back to New York from South Dakota b= y train.  The
interior scenes were the same as earlier, inside a = NYC roomette, perhaps
filmed with the earlier NYC scenes.  The ex= terior scene was one that left me
with many questions.  The closi= ng scene showed - behind "The End" titles -
a bloody nose Southern F3 = A unit doubled back to back with a gray Southern
F3 A, pulling a NYC 7= 0' streamlined baggage car and several PRR streamlined,
smoothside coa= ches with the multiple stripe scheme.  The train was on a
single = track line entering a single portal tunnel at speed.  Anybody want t= o
hazard a guess where this scene was shot?  Anyone know the stor= y behind the
Southern, NYC, PRR mixture?

Lew Matt


Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Syste= ms
Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O.


---------------------= --------------------------------------------------
For assistance with= this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2381C.EDEF06E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:54:38 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest Lew & folks, Geez, it's been upwards of 40 years, I'd imagine, since I saw that movie, though your note reminds me that I should catch it again some time. But, NYC F7's on the Century? Not E7's or E8's? That alone would make the movie worth watching to check out. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Wire & Steel Screw Gauges Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:26:30 -0700 Thank you for the history lesson, Dick. I was totally unaware that the French (who invented the SI system) lost the war. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:14:15 EDT VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Don't ask me to convert any of this to Millimeters. > My feeling is that > we won the War and when we sent all that "Marshall Plan" > money over there we > should have told the French, Germans and the rest "This > is a dollar bill - > it's 6" long, LEARN THAT" > > Dick Ross, > Cleveland. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 06:33:53 -0700 Just a minor correction, Gregg...the "bloody nose" first made it's appearance on the Espee in 1958. I would call that "late 50's", not "mid 50's". :-) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:50:05 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > Lew, > > "SOUTHERN Bloody nose F3A unit??????? Southern's were > green and aluminum > (gray) or black and aluminum. Are you sure it wasn't > Southern Pacific? Their > Diesel power had "bloody noses" on grey units from the > mid 1950's. > Just a guess though.. > > Gregg Mahlkov > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: [PRR] Wire & steel screws Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:45:42 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C238CA.DA842DC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable More embarrassing the French lost the war they started just after = inventing the SI system at Waterloo... And the British also have their own imperial measures which are = different to the US including for engineering screws... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Wire & Steel Screw Gauges > Thank you for the history lesson, Dick. I was totally > unaware that the French (who invented the SI system) lost > the war. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:14:15 EDT > VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > > Don't ask me to convert any of this to Millimeters. > > My feeling is that > > we won the War and when we sent all that "Marshall Plan" > > money over there we > > should have told the French, Germans and the rest "This > > is a dollar bill - > > it's 6" long, LEARN THAT" > > > > Dick Ross, > > Cleveland. > > > > > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C238CA.DA842DC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
More embarrassing the French lost the war they started just after=20 inventing
the SI system at Waterloo...

And the British also = have their=20 own imperial measures which are different to
the US including for = engineering=20 screws...

Patrick Grace

----- Original Message = -----
From:=20 <billd@gci-net.com>
To: = <Prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: = Wednesday,=20 July 31, 2002 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wire & Steel Screw=20 Gauges


> Thank you for the history lesson, Dick. I was=20 totally
> unaware that the French (who invented the SI system)=20 lost
> the war.
>
> Bill Daniels
> Tucson,=20 AZ
>
> On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:14:15 EDT
>  VVA249@aol.com wrote:
>
> = >     Don't ask me to convert any of this to=20 Millimeters.
> >  My feeling is that
> > we won = the War=20 and when we sent all that "Marshall Plan"
> > money over there=20 we
> > should have told the French, Germans and the rest = "This
>=20 > is a dollar bill -
> > it's 6" long, LEARN THAT"
>=20 >
> > Dick Ross,
> > Cleveland.
> = >
>=20 >
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 > For assistance with this list, please visit
> > http://lists.dsop.com.
>
>=
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C238CA.DA842DC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:25:14 -0400 The side of each loco was labeled "Southern" no Pacific was evident. :-) Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest > Just a minor correction, Gregg...the "bloody nose" first > made it's appearance on the Espee in 1958. I would call > that "late 50's", not "mid 50's". :-) > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:50:05 -0400 > "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > > Lew, > > > > "SOUTHERN Bloody nose F3A unit??????? Southern's were > > green and aluminum > > (gray) or black and aluminum. Are you sure it wasn't > > Southern Pacific? Their > > Diesel power had "bloody noses" on grey units from the > > mid 1950's. > > Just a guess though.. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:35:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] New PRR power I've heard on some other lists that Roco has announced the future production of an HO scale GG-1. They also announced production of the AC 4400 and an updated FP-7 which is suppoused to come equipped with sound.-------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:25:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Wire & Steel Screw Gauges In a message dated 7/31/02 9:45:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << I was totally unaware that the French (who invented the SI system) lost the war. >> They did surrender to the Germans - and the current Metric "DIN" standards are a legacy of Hitler, not Napolean. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 18:41:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] Es not Fs --part1_173.c365f69.2a79c1a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you watch again you will notice the train had Es not Fs. I do not think the Central had any boiler equiped Fs. They did however have som eboiler equipped Geeps --part1_173.c365f69.2a79c1a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you watch again you will notice the train had Es not Fs.  I do not think the Central had any boiler equiped Fs.  They did however have som eboiler equipped Geeps --part1_173.c365f69.2a79c1a4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 21:23:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Metrics In a message dated 7/31/02 12:40:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyNut@hotmail.com writes: << Back to "metrics" for a moment. IMHO they can be a good thing, as in what I had referred to with regard to world-wide exchangeability of parts - say for instance - cars/vehicles. We have all heard about the American auto worker who mistook English for metric and the mess it created. And the aeronautics engineer who did the same and the resulting mess at NASA. So, if we stick to English only, it just creates problems. Even the UK is on metrics, or so I heard. Since even the English use Metrics - and Most of our "American" parts come from the orient - I generally refer to the system which we currently use as "Fractional" Prior to the age of Industry, standardization - and inter changeability - measurements hardly needed to be quite so precise - as a mater of fact, how often have you heard of a close call as "Missing by inches" (Implying several) As tolerances got tighter, we evolved from inches to 1/2 and 1/4" - finally until we got fractions with denominators in the hundreds and thousands - very unwieldy and entirely impractical - My gripe with the Metric system is that nearly the entire Metric world was destroyed (much of it by us) during WW2 - and the problem with the large denominators had already been solved by the "Decimal Inch" system (e.g., tolerances on a 3/4" Bolt: .7389 to .7542) We should have insisted - we had the power at the time - that the rest of the world learn to measure our way..... Instead, we bought everybody else brand new Metric Machinery - while we banged along with our war worn "Fractional" stuff - the beginning of the end for U.S. Industry. Just my 2 cents worth - notice that computers don't have a 1/4 a 1/2 or "cents" keys? They had to be dropped - for instruction keys and since it was no longer possible to use an "O" for a Zero or an "I" for a numeral 1.... All in all, this all assures us some real screwy things - most "O" scale automobile models are 1:43 (European "O" scale - 7mm to the foot) - some larger pieces, especially construction, are 1:50 (an architectural scale?) and the odd part is that when someone comes along and does it right (1/4" to the foot) 1:48, you've become so used to the the 1:43, that the real scale stuff looks undersized. Although I was in the Military, I never realized, until recently, that ammunition caliber was really just shorthand for the decimal inch measurement. One day I happened to be playing with my micrometer, while on hold, and noticed that an old Civil War bullet on my desk, which I knew was ".58 caliber" was, in fact, about .580" - Then I checked an M-1 round .30 and learned the system by accident: that a ".22" would be a tad under 1/4" that a".38" would be something over 3/8" and a ".45"- over 7/16" while a ".50" caliber - exactly 1/2" - which would make HO .82 caliber? Dick BTW - No "Real Man" ever eats Quiche or has anything good to say about the French.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 19:56:32 -0700 Subject: [PRR] B60 longetivity Hi, Some time back Lew Matt and I were trying to get some rough idea how long the original B60 class of baggage cars lasted in service. Now please note, I'm not talking about the later B60b class, with it's balloon roof. I'm talking about the original B60 class, which had a clerestory roof as it's major spotting feature. The B60 car class was older and was built much earlier than the B60b, with the earliest B60 cars being built about 20 years before the first B60b was constructed. Searching thru the ORER is inconclusive, since the ORER does not list baggage cars by class, and it's impossible to distinguish the B60 cars from the B60b cars in the ORER listings. So I've looked thru books, searching for dated photos with B60 class cars in them, and in particular looking for photos dated as late as possible. So far, I've found the following: (1) "The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4" pg 49 May 1956 (2) "I Remember Pennsy" pg 14 Aug 1955 So the initial conclusion is that the B60 class lasted at least into May 1956. However, it is entirely possible that B60 cars lasted beyond this date - after all, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, right? Also, my book collection is entirely slanted towards steam, and steam disappeared in the late 1950's, so I have very few books with photos after that date. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Anyone out there seen a picture of a diesel pulling a train with a B60 in it? Preferably with a date on the photo? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:04:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 longetivity --part1_62.23766d61.2a79ff2d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know you said "in service" in your previous message but I thought it interesting to note that a couple of B60's were parked until recently in Penn Coach Yards - Phila., painted CR blue with black roofs, and used for storage. --part1_62.23766d61.2a79ff2d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know you said "in service" in your previous message but I thought it interesting to note that a couple of B60's were parked until recently in Penn Coach Yards - Phila., painted CR blue with black roofs, and used for storage. --part1_62.23766d61.2a79ff2d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics From: Matthew J Brown Date: 31 Jul 2002 22:17:17 -0700 I think that the two reasons the Metric system took off worldwide are simply: (a) Scientists love it; the one place the USA uses metric exclusively is in science. The easy unit conversions and relatively logical system just work better, and besides, a consistant language (English) and measuring system (SI) worldwide are just so helpful for science. (b) No system that required the world to pick up one country's traditional system was ever going to work. Metric, being nobody's traditional system, was the only thing that stood a chance to become a world standard. Remember, every European country had inches, pretty much. The problem was, each of them had their *own* inch. Nobody was going to accept one guy's inch over anyone else's. - The other part of it is simply that many countries' pre-Metric measurement systems were very complicated. Look at the British Imperial measurements, sometime. -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!