From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] electrification Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:25:06 -0400 > I would like to know if anyone out there has the book, I >believe it's called "When the Steam Railroads Electrified ". The book is the third installment of a trilogy by Bill Middleton. The first two being "The Time of the Trolley" and "The Interurban Era". If you have an interest in electric traction this trio is worth the money. Thankfully Indiana University Press reprinted "When the Steam Railroads Electrified". Chapters cover Grand Central Terminal, New Haven, PRR into NYC, the Great Northern, the Milwaukee, several mining applications and Latin America. A new chapter brings one up to date on the Acela Express and electrification to Boston. The appendices include The technology of electrification; The motive power of electrification and The what, where and when of electrification. May I also suggest "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895-1968" by Michael Bezilla, copyright 1980 by Penn State University Press. Neither book has technical drawings, but I do not know what you are looking for. If you are close to a good book store go look before you buy or visit a person who has the books. Most museum archives on traction or the PRR may also have the books for you to peruse. DF Cramer PS: If you are near western Pennsylvania, you are welcome to visit me and view the books. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 16:25:55 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] electrification Michael Capone wrote: > I would like to know if anyone out there has the book, I believe it's called >"When the Steam Railroads Electrified ". Yes, little to add to previous comments. > Why I ask is I am thinking of buying the book and it's a bit expensive, and >I want to make sure it has the information I want. Not just the hows and whys, >I want info of the technical side of the electrification, i.e. how the locomotives > and the power plants were developed. How the testing was done and so forth. The only sources of detailed info i know of are various technical publications of the time. Some have been reprinted. Notably: "Electrification by Westinghouse' tho it has just one chapter on PRR. A better source is Proceedings of the AIEE (one of the predecessors to the IEEE). During the 30s, the designers presented professional papers at various AIEE meetings covering the electrification, power system locomotives, etc. Not available for purchase, but library work might find them, somewhere... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... -??? (tell me who,,,) There are many web sites, which say many things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] electrification Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:52:41 -0400 Listers, I also would recommend Carl Condit's book on New York's steam railroads and their electrifications. Condit is fairly technical both on the mechanics of electric motors and railroad applications and the geology of the New York area. The railroad map of the region begins to make some sense once you see the geological challenges the PRR and others faced. Plus, the book is a good primer on the development of the electric motor. (The B&O's pioneering electrification in Baltimore gets a lot of attention too.) Best, --Keith -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of davep Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 4:26 PM To: Michael Capone; PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] electrification Michael Capone wrote: > I would like to know if anyone out there has the book, I believe it's called >"When the Steam Railroads Electrified ". Yes, little to add to previous comments. > Why I ask is I am thinking of buying the book and it's a bit expensive, and >I want to make sure it has the information I want. Not just the hows and whys, >I want info of the technical side of the electrification, i.e. how the locomotives > and the power plants were developed. How the testing was done and so forth. The only sources of detailed info i know of are various technical publications of the time. Some have been reprinted. Notably: "Electrification by Westinghouse' tho it has just one chapter on PRR. A better source is Proceedings of the AIEE (one of the predecessors to the IEEE). During the 30s, the designers presented professional papers at various AIEE meetings covering the electrification, power system locomotives, etc. Not available for purchase, but library work might find them, somewhere... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... -??? (tell me who,,,) There are many web sites, which say many things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 01:29:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] dispel a few J-1 myths --part1_66.21dac73a.2a2b074e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Are you steering these folks from first hand knowledge and recollection of from the photos (color and b&w) you've seen? I have a very good friend who flew helicopters during 1969 in Vietnam. He told me a story about the markings on one of his Company's birds in great detail. He remembered these personal markings as yellow. Well, one night we pulled out some old slides and there was the Huey just the way he remembered, except the markings were red. Photos especially color a a great help. One problem is that the standard roster shot at that time would have been a 3/4 wedge from track level rods down. You'll have to really look to find any down on shots of the tender. I have a copy of "THE PAINTING OF P.R.R. LOCOMOTIVES AND TENDERS" Special Publication No. 1, published by the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association (1972). The painting instructions they provide are dated October 8, 1929. While this information predates the J-1 class by some fourteen years there is considerable evidence that these paint practices continued through the end of steam operations. Dark Green Locomotive Finish (DGLF), the railroad called for the all locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, wooden pilot beam, cylinder head, steam chest castings, cylinder jackets, boiler jacket (including inside cab), headlight, bell frame, sand box, dome, air reservoirs, running board facing strips, cab exterior (including doors) valve motion (painted parts), tender cistern exterior (sides, back, front end except coal space, molding strip between cistern and frame, tender frame (wood). to be. Black, the railroad called for locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, steel pilot beam, pilot beam braces, round number plate (background), engine truck (except wheels), frames, braces, hand rails, running boards and brackets (except facing), steps, pipes, fixtures, brake rigging, deck plate, tender frame (steel), tender steps, tender trucks and wheels, tender coal space. *Please note DGLF and Black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frame. Front End Paint was used on the smokebox, stack, firebox (exposed portion), and the ash pan. Freight Car Color on the roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied), the tender top of cistern (including rear of coal space). Three Parts Freight Car Color and One Part Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (repainting when two coats are applied). On steel cab roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied). Equal Parts Freight Car Color and Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (new cabs), steel cab roof above rain gutters (new cabs and repainting when two or three coats are applied). Sash Color used on the cab window sash (side and rear). Interior Cab Green to the cab interior, including doors and seat boxes. Buff Lettering Color on freight and switching locomotives. All lettering on locomotive and tender, round number plate (number and border). This has gotten quite long, sorry about that. I do hope this helps. If you have other questions about this please contact me off list. Ed Martin... banned by Ed Hall, Director Cajon Division, Pacific Southwest Region, National Model Railroad Association --part1_66.21dac73a.2a2b074e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill,

Are you steering these folks from first hand knowledge and recollection of from the photos (color and b&w) you've seen?

I have a very good friend who flew helicopters during 1969 in Vietnam. He told me a story about the markings on one of his Company's birds in great detail. He remembered these personal markings as yellow. Well, one night we pulled out some old slides and there was the Huey just the way he remembered, except the markings were red.

Photos especially color a a great help. One problem is that the standard roster shot at that time would have been a 3/4 wedge from track level rods down. You'll have to really look to find any down on shots of the tender.

I have a copy of "THE PAINTING OF P.R.R. LOCOMOTIVES AND TENDERS" Special Publication No. 1, published by the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association (1972). The painting instructions they provide are dated October 8, 1929. While this information predates the J-1 class by some fourteen years there is considerable evidence that these paint practices continued through the end of steam operations.

Dark Green Locomotive Finish (DGLF), the railroad called for the all locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, wooden pilot beam, cylinder head, steam chest castings, cylinder jackets, boiler jacket (including inside cab), headlight, bell frame, sand box, dome, air reservoirs, running board facing strips, cab exterior (including doors) valve motion (painted parts), tender cistern exterior (sides, back, front end except coal space, molding strip between cistern and frame, tender frame (wood). to be.

Black, the railroad called for locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, steel pilot beam, pilot beam braces, round number plate (background), engine truck (except wheels), frames, braces, hand rails, running boards and brackets (except facing), steps, pipes, fixtures, brake rigging, deck plate, tender frame (steel), tender steps, tender trucks and wheels, tender coal space.

*Please note DGLF and Black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frame.

Front End Paint was used on the smokebox, stack, firebox (exposed portion), and the ash pan.

Freight Car Color on the roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied), the tender top of cistern (including rear of coal space).

Three Parts Freight Car Color and One Part Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (repainting when two coats are applied). On steel cab roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied).

Equal Parts Freight Car Color and Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (new cabs), steel cab roof above rain gutters (new cabs and repainting when two or three coats are applied).

Sash Color used on the cab window sash (side and rear).

Interior Cab Green to the cab interior, including doors and seat boxes.

Buff Lettering Color on freight and switching locomotives. All lettering on locomotive and tender, round number plate (number and border).

This has gotten quite long, sorry about that. I do hope this helps. If you have other questions about this please contact me off list.

Ed Martin... banned by Ed Hall, Director Cajon Division, Pacific Southwest Region, National Model Railroad Association --part1_66.21dac73a.2a2b074e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WBROUTE@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:47:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] PC/PRR car question --part1_48.c4dcaef.2a2b982c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, everyone I'm trying to help out a friend who took a picture back in the 70's of a PC car that is definitely X-PRR the car number is #495042. I have posted a photo on Trainorders.com I will include the link, although I'm not sure you can view the PIC without being a member. Right now I think you can see it even if your not a member. Thanks in advance. Kristopher Crawley --part1_48.c4dcaef.2a2b982c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, everyone I'm trying to help out a friend who took a picture back in the 70's of a PC car that is definitely X-PRR the car number is #495042.  I have posted a photo on Trainorders.com I will include the link, although I'm not sure you can view the PIC without being a member.  Right now I think you can see it even if your not a member.  

<http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?f=2&i=79293&t=79293>

Thanks in advance.  Kristopher Crawley --part1_48.c4dcaef.2a2b982c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:16:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] P J & B [ Princeton Junction and Back] From: "M. E Allen" For any one who actually pays attention to these things: I just finished my annual three days at Princeton University's annual bacchanal celebrating the rites of spring and Budwiser. The Class of 1967 [35th] traditionally has a railroad theme for their parties. This year's T-Shirt was in MOW yellow with a large black keystone on the back lettered "P J & B Railroad Company" MEA ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PC/PRR car question By looking at the photo, it appears to be a old PRR X29 boxcar modified for MOW service. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:50:12 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] S Scale H30A Hi All, Here is a scan of my just finished S Scale H30A. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_ScaleH30A.jpg I usually have about a 1-month attention span for any project. This must have been one month + 1 hour because, I just discovered it in my collection ready for paint after I reworked it and details added some time ago. I was very happy that I had the Builders photo, so I dove right in! The Return When Empty To Mapleton PA was made up of "Mapleton" from individual decal letters. FUN FUN FUN! I do not have the correct trucks as it appeared in the Builders photo, they are correct for the H30. I keep showing the S Scale and PRR Internet community my work because I want to show that the Mighty PRR is alive and well in S Scale today. It is thriving. This is not a scratchbuilt car. It was produced by River Raisin Models http://riverraisinmodels.com about 14 years ago. I am happy to say that the ranks of HO and O scale are 1 each less as of last week because of my promotional efforts. Enjoy, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:00:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Techmoeller address From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Thanks to everyone who responded. Someone e-mailed John and he e-mailed me asking what was up before I had a chance to send one to him. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 22:40:37 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum Commentary by David W. Seidel Horseshoe Curve Chapter Historian The announced financial crisis at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum of May 23, 2002, is, of course, disconcerting and a cause of concern to the Horseshoe Curve Chapter. Our long association, if you will read the Chapter history on our webpage, details this history. The newspaper articles are self-explanatory. But by way of confirmation, the financial difficulties at the museum are not due to mis-management or malfeasance. Much commentary by other pens offer probable causes, some of which may be valid, but uninformed speculation can be deadly to the museum's current predicament. Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum, admittedly, has grown and developed significantly since the doors opened on the original building September 21, 1980. As one of founding members (and there were many of us), we did, in fact, have a dream for Altoona in founding this museum facility. The significant improvements with the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Site Development (1992) and the development of the Master Mechanic's Building (1998) have been dramatic. Speaking for myself, I probably never thought the museum would be the world-class facility it is today, in such a short span of time. In saying this, I must add that because it is "world-class", it is, and remains, a source of great pride to see such a facility in Altoona, Pennsylvania. And the improvements continue with the K-4 project and the roundhouse construction. But, gate receipts and other revenue from visitors, railfans, and the public at large are what keep the doors open. Daily operating expenses are high due to the significant electronics, specialized lighting, and of course, in winter, heat and maintenance. But this was a known reality at the time of development. A significant drop in tourism since the 911 disaster is partly to blame. Admittedly the quality of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum would be more typically located in a larger population center. What is the solution? Better marketing? Better financial savvy? Retrenchment? As painful as it must have been, the museum board has placed the survival of the facility as the top most priority. In doing so, staff positions including management have been sacrificed, as has the current Board of Directors. But, please understand that this Board of Directors have all been highly dedicated people genuinely interested in the mission of the museum. A major re-organization is now underway, tapping other talent in the local financial and business community, and a business plan is being developed. One of the foremost assets of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum has been the contagious and infectious enthusiasm of Mr. Cummins McNitt who came to the museum in the development phase of the Master Mechanics Building as Curator, and most recently as Executive Director. The responsibilities of any Executive Director are many and, to paraphrase former President Harry S. Truman, "the buck stops here" at the Executive Directors desk. However, from my perspective as a docent/volunteer, I sincerely hope Mr. McNitt is retained for his demonstrated dedication and the many talents he obviously contributes to ARMM. As plans evolve for re-organization and re-structuring a new museum Board, we as the railfan community, can either be part of the solution or be part of the problem. We all have this great forum in the year 2002 of the "world wide web", where communication is instantaneous and literally world-wide in seconds. We all have our opinions, rightly or wrongly, for that is the american way. But Freedom of Speech, while one of our basic constitutional rights, is also one of responsibility. Uninformed speculation, hearsay, and inuendo can be cancerous. It isn't just Altoona's museum, it is "OUR" museum. Take pride in all of it for it is a heritage that represents us all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 08:06:29 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] S Scale H30A Bill, Nice looking car! I was going to pick up the F&C HO H30A at the recent SER NMRA meet, but when I talked to them, they indicated that the H30 would be available shortly (~3 months), and since the H30A is too late for me... Happy Rails Bruce >Hi All, > >Here is a scan of my just finished S Scale H30A. >http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_ScaleH30A.jpg I usually have about >a 1-month attention span for any project. This must have been one month + 1 >hour because, I just discovered it in my collection ready for paint after I >reworked it and details added some time ago. I was very happy that I had the >Builders photo, so I dove right in! The Return When Empty To Mapleton PA was >made up of "Mapleton" from individual decal letters. FUN FUN FUN! > >I do not have the correct trucks as it appeared in the Builders photo, they >are correct for the H30. I keep showing the S Scale and PRR Internet >community my work because I want to show that the Mighty PRR is alive and >well in S Scale today. It is thriving. This is not a scratchbuilt car. It >was produced by River Raisin Models http://riverraisinmodels.com about 14 >years ago. I am happy to say that the ranks of HO and O scale are 1 each >less as of last week because of my promotional efforts. > >Enjoy, > >Bill > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] P2k Vs. Walthers Fa's Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:15:57 +0000 What are the siginificant differences bewteen Walthers FA+B's vs. P2K? Thanks. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k Vs. Walthers Fa's On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > What are the siginificant differences bewteen Walthers > FA+B's vs. P2K? Thanks. Norm Bell The Walthers (ex-Train Miniatures) shell is crude in comparison, though I vaguely recall it to be dimensionally accurate. I sold all of mine off. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:24:51 -0400 From: Michael Capone Subject: [PRR] electrification This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_jgQCZpJ9ANJfsOoAuY+NlQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thank you all for your input. I am grateful to all, I've ordered the book (it has been updated to include the Amtrak part to Boston). I can't wait to start reading it. Though I'm also looking for a copy of "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad". Someone wrote to me where I could find it, I e-mailed the bookstore with no answer as of yet. Once again thanks to all!! Mike --Boundary_(ID_jgQCZpJ9ANJfsOoAuY+NlQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Thank you all for your input. I am grateful to all, I've ordered the book (it has been updated to include the Amtrak part to Boston). I can't wait to start reading it. Though I'm also looking for a copy of "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad". Someone wrote to me where I could find it, I e-mailed the bookstore with no answer as of yet. Once again thanks to all!!
 
Mike
--Boundary_(ID_jgQCZpJ9ANJfsOoAuY+NlQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] Off topic, photo in Ball Book Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 21:17:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C20B44.0AF141A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentleman, This is sort of off topic. I am looking to recreate the = scene in Don Ball's book " ... Pennsy 40's and 50s..." on page 90. = There is a box car on the float that appears to be a single door car = painted silver with the Northern Pacific red, black and white circular = logo on the side of the "A" end, and a lettered circular stencil in red = on the door. Could some one steer me in the direction of either the = model of this or the decals? Please contact me off list. The other = cars on the float are identifiable. Thanks Jim sjlash@tcis.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C20B44.0AF141A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentleman,  This is sort of off = topic.  I=20 am  looking to recreate the scene in Don Ball's book " ... = Pennsy 40's=20 and 50s..."   on page 90.  There is a box car on the = float that=20 appears to be a single door  car painted silver with the Northern = Pacific=20 red, black and white circular logo on the side of the =  "A" end,=20 and a lettered circular stencil in red on the door.  Could some one = steer=20 me in the direction of either the model of this or the decals?  = Please=20 contact me off list.  The other cars on the float are=20 identifiable.   Thanks Jim   sjlash@tcis.net =
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C20B44.0AF141A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:47:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY In a message dated 6/2/02 10:49:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dwsnrhs@aol.com writes: << One of the foremost assets of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum has been the contagious and infectious enthusiasm of Mr. Cummins McNitt who came to the museum in the development phase of the Master Mechanics Building as Curator, and most recently as Executive Director. The responsibilities of any Executive Director are many and, to paraphrase former President Harry S. Truman, "the buck stops here" >> I do not know the man or the situation, but if "the buck truly stops here" shouldn't he be the first cargo jettisoned to lighten the load for survival, rather than kept on the payroll, to captain the sinking ship? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:40:50 -0400 I do agree. Lighten the load and start anew. As the Russians say- Tuffshitskee. Mismanagement- gets 'em every time. I am all for a new board that will adhear to policy and procedure keeping the mission of the museum at heart and mind. Their is no reason why a museum with a wealth of history as Altoona cannot hold its own. If the exonerated board could not handle the job, it was their right to step up and admit to their inability to do the task at hand and allow a plan to be implemented to keep the expansion project on target. If they knew the mechanics building project was going to put them in the red, then why attempt it? Greg V ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY > In a message dated 6/2/02 10:49:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dwsnrhs@aol.com > writes: > > << One of the foremost assets of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum has > been the contagious and infectious enthusiasm of Mr. Cummins McNitt who came > to the museum in the development phase of the Master Mechanics Building as > Curator, and most recently as Executive Director. The responsibilities of any > Executive Director are many and, to paraphrase former President Harry S. > Truman, "the buck stops here" >> > > I do not know the man or the situation, but if "the buck truly stops here" > shouldn't he be the first cargo jettisoned to lighten the load for survival, > rather than kept on the payroll, to captain the sinking ship? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Off topic, photo in Ball Book Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:29:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C20BE5.12238810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan,and All, Thanks for the reply.. I had already checked the same = sources. A note to one of the decal manufacturers provided the info. A = 50' Mechanical reefer and Microscale decals. Thanks again Jim Lash = PS An email address for NP Hist Society is, from my info, not = available ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: sjlash@tcis.net=20 Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Off topic, photo in Ball Book Jim,=20 What scale. Believe that Branchline offers/offered a 40' car in = this scheme. Do not know Branchline's website so check with our = sponsor, Merchandise Service, about this car.=20 If all else fails, then contact the NP technical and historical = society.=20 Good Luck,=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C20BE5.12238810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,and All, Thanks for the = reply.. I had=20 already checked the same sources.  A note to one of the decal = manufacturers=20 provided the info.  A 50' Mechanical reefer and Microscale = decals. =20 Thanks again  Jim Lash     PS  An email=20 address  for NP Hist Society is, from my info, not = available
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 = 11:03=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Off topic, = photo in=20 Ball Book

Jim, =

 What=20 scale.   Believe that Branchline offers/offered a 40' car in = this=20 scheme.  Do not know Branchline's website so check with our = sponsor,=20 Merchandise Service, about this car.

 If all else fails,=20  then contact the NP technical and historical society. =

 Good=20 Luck,

  Evan Leisey = ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C20BE5.12238810-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] RATS! Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:55:08 -0400 Listers, A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about the Keystones on the side as show here: http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? Thanks Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:01:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! From: Jerry Britton On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He > wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about > the Keystones on the side as show here: > http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 > 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 > > We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on > the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own > #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same > size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a > sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the > B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? > I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to N scale! He did a great job, and put the numbers inside the keystones. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:55:47 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! >On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > >> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He >> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about >> the Keystones on the side as show here: >> http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 >> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 >> >> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on >> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own >> #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same >> size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a >> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the >> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? >> >I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched >this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to N >scale! Hi gang! On the sides: 18" keystone, with number, centered on sides On the front/back: 12" keystone, with number on end doors We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ. My computer is really acting cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't check for you, but they have a "keystone" set... Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] RATS! Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:15:57 -0400 Bruce, What did you do about the 12" keystones for the end doors? Chris -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:56 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! >On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > >> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He >> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about >> the Keystones on the side as show here: >> http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 >> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 >> >> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on >> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own >> #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same >> size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a >> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the >> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? >> >I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched >this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to N >scale! Hi gang! On the sides: 18" keystone, with number, centered on sides On the front/back: 12" keystone, with number on end doors We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ. My computer is really acting cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't check for you, but they have a "keystone" set... Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:50:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] GLa hopper From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I have scanned an image of the GLa hopper at Hamburg, NY. There are actually two images. One the size of the original print and one enlarged so you can actually see the markings. Anyone want a copy - - send an e-mail. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400 From: Rick Miskell Subject: [PRR] "MS60" Hi Group. I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as a class anywhere. The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well as X-42's. Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really a B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no one seems to have data available for on the net? Thanks in advance. Rick Miskell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:02:29 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! --------------901E6941A5C7F37A21F801CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you considered printing them on a color laser printer and just gluing them on the model? I have been doing this for fluted, streamlined passenger car letterboards for some time now. Believe me its a hell of lot easier than spelling out RICHMOND FREDRICKSBURG AND POTOMAC one letter at a time from an alphabet set! When appropriate, and this may be one such case, I print them on clear plastic sheets used for transparency projections. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Bruce, > > What did you do about the 12" keystones for the end doors? > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:56 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! > > >On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > > > >> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He > >> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering > about > >> the Keystones on the side as show here: > >> > http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 > >> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 > >> > >> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on > >> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your > own > >> #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the > same > >> size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale > has a > >> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the > >> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? > >> > >I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched > >this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to > N > >scale! > > Hi gang! > On the sides: 18" keystone, with number, centered on sides > On the front/back: 12" keystone, with number on end doors > > We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ. My computer is really acting > cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't > check for you, but they have a "keystone" set... > > Happy rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin --------------901E6941A5C7F37A21F801CC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you considered printing them on a color laser printer and just gluing them on the model?   I have been doing this for fluted, streamlined passenger car letterboards for some time now.   Believe me its a hell of lot easier than spelling out RICHMOND FREDRICKSBURG AND POTOMAC one letter at a time from an alphabet set!  When appropriate, and this may be one such case, I print them on clear plastic sheets used for transparency projections.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Chany, Christopher" wrote:

Bruce,

What did you do about the 12" keystones for the end doors?

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:56 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS!

>On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote:
>
>> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's.  He
>> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher.  We were wondering
about
>> the Keystones on the side as show here:
>>
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752
>> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1
>>
>> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on
>> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your
own
>> #'s in.  Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends.  Were they the
same
>> size?  I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale
has a
>> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones.  If the
>> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them?
>>
>I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched
>this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to
N
>scale!

Hi gang!
On the sides:  18" keystone, with number, centered on sides
On the front/back:  12" keystone, with number on end doors

We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ.  My computer is really acting
cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't
check for you, but they have a "keystone" set...

Happy rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin

--------------901E6941A5C7F37A21F801CC-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:09:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! From: Jerry Britton On 6/6/02 9:02 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Have you considered printing them on a color laser printer and just gluing > them on the model? I have been doing this for fluted, streamlined passenger > car letterboards for some time now. Believe me its a hell of lot easier than > spelling out RICHMOND FREDRICKSBURG AND POTOMAC one letter at a time from an > alphabet set! When appropriate, and this may be one such case, I print them > on clear plastic sheets used for transparency projections. > Both Microscale and Champ sell blank decal film for use in computer printers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:31:11 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! --------------060607030706060105060602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] >> >Both Microscale and Champ sell blank decal film for use in computer >printers. > Also Walthers... I have made "Cornwall Railroad" decals for list member Nick Kulp on my color ink jet printer (I use the Walthers labels as they specifically say ink jet)... Before applying them, seal them with Dullcoat so the ink doesn't run. That MAY not be necessary with a color laser (as it doesn't really use ink)... Jeff Warner --------------060607030706060105060602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] 

Both Microscale and Champ sell blank decal film for use in computer
printers.
Also Walthers...

I have made "Cornwall Railroad" decals for list member Nick Kulp on my color ink jet printer (I use the Walthers labels as they specifically say ink jet)...  Before applying them, seal them with Dullcoat so the ink doesn't run.  That MAY not be necessary with a color laser (as it doesn't really use ink)...

Jeff Warner
--------------060607030706060105060602-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:52:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Steam class repairs From: prrq2 I have been reading the interview with Clair Clugh in the Summer 1996 "Keystone". He mentions that there were 5 classes of steam repair, class 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. He does not elaborate on them, but infers that class 1 was the heaviest repair. Does anyone know what sort of repairs were included in each of the classes? This is a most interesting interview, lots of great info. TIA -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] K4 Question Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:38:34 -0400

I just got one of the new Spectrum K4's and I am considering doing some detail changes to make it more representative of the Post-War version. I am using the Kris Kollar article as a guide, but I am wondering about the water hatch. I have seen a few photos of Post-War K4 without the antenna. Does this mean that some K4's kept the original water hatch location if they did not have the antenna?
Thanks,
Eric
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Bobby Bryzinski Subject: [PRR] South Wind drumhead Does anyone know of any good color photos or references for the "South Wind" passenger train drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color info. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob Bryzinski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam class repairs Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:37:56 -0400 I rember the tour guide at the shop tour at Steamtown going into a lot of detail about class repairs, what was included in each, etc. (This was a few years ago - before 1361 arrived. They were rebuilding their 0-6-0.) An e-mail to them might get some information. I'm also interested, so does anyone have a list they can send out via the list, or direct us to a website? I don't remember seeing anything on www.steamlocomotive.com about it. Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "prrq2" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam class repairs > I have been reading the interview with Clair Clugh in the Summer 1996 > "Keystone". He mentions that there were 5 classes of steam repair, class 1, > 2, 3, 4, and 5. He does not elaborate on them, but infers that class 1 was > the heaviest repair. Does anyone know what sort of repairs were included in > each of the classes? This is a most interesting interview, lots of great > info. > > TIA > -- > Bill Ayers > Remembering the PRR in Crestline > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam class repairs Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:57:45 -0400 Speaking of steam locomotive class repairs, does anyone know whether the shops at Renovo performed all classes of repairs? Especially during WWII? Does anyone know of information on which locmotive classes received which class of repair by year in Renovo? (I'll be really surprised if anyone , even on this list, can provide that last one, with the possible exception of Greg Stone [Mr. Renovo]) Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "prrq2" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam class repairs > I rember the tour guide at the shop tour at Steamtown going into a lot of > detail about class repairs, what was included in each, etc. (This was a few > years ago - before 1361 arrived. They were rebuilding their 0-6-0.) An > e-mail to them might get some information. I'm also interested, so does > anyone have a list they can send out via the list, or direct us to a > website? I don't remember seeing anything on www.steamlocomotive.com about > it. > > Bill Bigler > Modeling Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "prrq2" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:52 PM > Subject: [PRR] Steam class repairs > > > > I have been reading the interview with Clair Clugh in the Summer 1996 > > "Keystone". He mentions that there were 5 classes of steam repair, class > 1, > > 2, 3, 4, and 5. He does not elaborate on them, but infers that class 1 was > > the heaviest repair. Does anyone know what sort of repairs were included > in > > each of the classes? This is a most interesting interview, lots of great > > info. > > > > TIA > > -- > > Bill Ayers > > Remembering the PRR in Crestline > > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Wind drumhead Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:02:15 -0400 If you can get a copy of the Tomar drumhead you should have the proper colors. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Bobby Bryzinski [mailto:bbryzinski@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:30 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] South Wind drumhead Does anyone know of any good color photos or references for the "South Wind" passenger train drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color info. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob Bryzinski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:38:13 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 In a message dated 5/30/02 8:15:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > I worked as a PRR brakeman on the Lake Region (E & A) for several years > while > attending college. The authors comments about the 1941 firemen made me > remember friction between the "old timers,"those that hired out in the > 20's,and those that had a 1925 seniority date. My memory, which I don't > have much of any more was that the old timers had a grudge against the > 1925 > men. I never knew what that was - but I think it was a class of trainmen > that was hired during a strike. Does any one know if there were strike > breakers hired in 1925 or is just a case of an assumption a youngster make > that had no basis in fact. This was not mentioned in the book > One of those things that I picked up verbally years ago, and may or may not be completely correct -- Up to 1922, Dennison was the western end of many Panhandle Div runs out of Pittsburgh -- the mileage works out about right for a 110 mile day Pittsburgh to Dennison and Dennison to Columbus. Dennison had a roundhouse, even shops, and a large classification yard. However, about this time, apparently longer runs with a train became possible. Also, since Dennison supported no branches and only a modest originating traffic, there was even less reason for reclassifying trains there. Then (the story goes) the switchmen went out on strike. I don't know how the local switchmen behaved during the strike, but after settlement, the PRR (always one to do things their way) closed the Dennison Yard and ripped it out. By 1972, when I first saw the site, it had become a healthy second-growth forest lying on the north side of the main and east of town. Of course, today, that's not that unusual for a historic Pennsy yard. It occurs to me that the other effects of closing Dennison were: 1. to make more desirable those engines who could both grunt over the Panhandle Division and then make speed west to Columbus. 2. to focus terminal facilities at Columbus. I wish for more info on how PRR in Columbus grew in between 1893 (I have a map) and WW2. Rick Tipton Now contemplating an HO layout set in Columbus in the 50's or 60's. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:38:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 --part1_d8.18c2d6c1.2a313e55_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/30/02 8:15:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > I worked as a PRR brakeman on the Lake Region (E & A) for several years > while > attending college. The authors comments about the 1941 firemen made me > remember friction between the "old timers,"those that hired out in the > 20's,and those that had a 1925 seniority date. My memory, which I don't > have much of any more was that the old timers had a grudge against the > 1925 > men. I never knew what that was - but I think it was a class of trainmen > that was hired during a strike. Does any one know if there were strike > breakers hired in 1925 or is just a case of an assumption a youngster make > that had no basis in fact. This was not mentioned in the book > One of those things that I picked up verbally years ago, and may or may not be completely correct -- Up to 1922, Dennison was the western end of many Panhandle Div runs out of Pittsburgh -- the mileage works out about right for a 110 mile day Pittsburgh to Dennison and Dennison to Columbus. Dennison had a roundhouse, even shops, and a large classification yard. However, about this time, apparently longer runs with a train became possible. Also, since Dennison supported no branches and only a modest originating traffic, there was even less reason for reclassifying trains there. Then (the story goes) the switchmen went out on strike. I don't know how the local switchmen behaved during the strike, but after settlement, the PRR (always one to do things their way) closed the Dennison Yard and ripped it out. By 1972, when I first saw the site, it had become a healthy second-growth forest lying on the north side of the main and east of town. Of course, today, that's not that unusual for a historic Pennsy yard. It occurs to me that the other effects of closing Dennison were: 1. to make more desirable those engines who could both grunt over the Panhandle Division and then make speed west to Columbus. 2. to focus terminal facilities at Columbus. I wish for more info on how PRR in Columbus grew in between 1893 (I have a map) and WW2. Rick Tipton Now contemplating an HO layout set in Columbus in the 50's or 60's. --part1_d8.18c2d6c1.2a313e55_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/30/02 8:15:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


I worked as a PRR brakeman on the Lake Region (E & A) for several years while
attending college.  The authors comments about the 1941 firemen made me
remember friction between the "old timers,"those that hired out in the
20's,and those that  had a 1925 seniority date.  My memory, which I don't
have much of any more was that  the old timers had a grudge against the 1925
men.  I never knew what that was - but I think it was a class of trainmen
that was hired during a strike.  Does any one know if there were strike
breakers hired in 1925 or is just a case of an assumption a youngster make
that had no basis in fact.  This was not mentioned in the book


One of those things that I picked up verbally years ago, and may or may not be completely correct --

Up to 1922, Dennison was the western end of many Panhandle Div runs out of Pittsburgh -- the mileage works out about right for a 110 mile day Pittsburgh to Dennison and Dennison to Columbus.  Dennison had a roundhouse, even shops, and a large classification yard.

However, about this time, apparently longer runs with a train became possible.  Also, since Dennison supported no branches and only a modest originating traffic, there was even less reason for reclassifying trains there.

Then (the story goes) the switchmen went out on strike.  I don't know how the local switchmen behaved during the strike, but after settlement, the PRR (always one to do things their way) closed the Dennison Yard and ripped it out.  By 1972, when I first saw the site, it had become a healthy second-growth forest lying on the north side of the main and east of town.  Of course, today, that's not that unusual for a historic Pennsy yard.

It occurs to me that the other effects of closing Dennison were:
1. to make more desirable those engines who could both grunt over the Panhandle Division and then make speed west to Columbus.
2. to focus terminal facilities at Columbus.  I wish for more info on how PRR in Columbus grew in between 1893 (I have a map) and WW2.

Rick Tipton
Now contemplating an HO layout set in Columbus in the 50's or 60's. --part1_d8.18c2d6c1.2a313e55_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RStein1686@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:25:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Books for sale For sale: 1. "Iron Horses across the Garden State" by Rosenbaum & Gallo (80pgs) 2."The Remarkable GG1" by Zimmerman (70pgs) 3."Trains of the Northeast Corridor" by Nelligan & Hartley (100 pgs) All of the above are 8 1/2 x 11 soft cover format books. $10 ea or 3 for $25 plus a bit for shipping. The following are large format hardbacks: 1."PRR 1940-1950" by Ball $25 2."Steam,Steel,&Stars" by Link $25 3."All Aboard" the golden age of American rail travel by Yenne $20 Shipping a bit extra. Please respond off list. Ron Stein near Philadelphia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Altoona/Huntingdon Weekend Safari Greetings List, This weekend, I'll be headed out to Altoona with my two PRR buddies Ken Rideout and Greg Vlassopoulos. We''ll be gathering photos and info for the HO Altoona-Cresson layout we are building here in Philly. We are staying at the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin. Saturday afternoon, we plan to head over to Huntingdon Pa to view HUNT Tower and check out the 60mph freight trains. Is this tower open on the weekends? We would like get inside if possible. Anyone have any info on HUNT Tower? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson PRRT&HS PCRRHS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] OFF TOPIC/Dave Sweetland/photo credit Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:55:22 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20D94.17F83AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, Is there anyone out there who has an email address for Dave. = There is a photo credit I would like to discuss with him.. Date,etc. = If you could have him email me that would be great. Jim = sjlash@tcis.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20D94.17F83AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,  Is there anyone out there = who has an=20 email address for Dave.  There is a photo credit I would like to = discuss=20 with him..  Date,etc.  If you could have him email me that = would be=20 great.  Jim   sjlash@tcis.net =
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20D94.17F83AA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:25:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "MS60" What the MS -60 means is that the equipment requirement is for 60' of mail storage not any certain car class. 2 X -29 class cars would fit the bill as well as 1 B-60. as long as 60' of mail storage is provided the equipment need is met. ----- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 Question Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:15:44 -0400 Thanks for the information. My next question would be, what about the tender deck on 3750? Since this was the first K4 that I have seen, I would like to model her. Thanks, Eric > [Original Message] > From: Burnley, Charles > To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net > Date: 6/6/02 4:36:05 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 Question > > Eric, > > Many K4s' did not get train phones and thus probably retained the original > water hatches. One opening, > three separately opening lids. They were linked to open individually, or all > 3 at once. The hatch was cross- > ways on the tender deck about 2 feet from the rear edge of the cistern. > Check photographs, antenna-less tenders > probably kept the original hatches. The only thing that could fool you is if > the tender had the antenna's > removed, then the hatches would remain in the "new" location. Not many > photo's of tender tops, and way,way to much > research. Pick a photo of the engine you want to model & work from that. > Tenders were moved from engine to engine > quite often, especially in the late years. > Good luck. > > Buzz > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Lauterbach [mailto:ealauterbach@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 2:39 PM > To: prr-talk > Subject: [PRR] K4 Question > > > > > > I just got one of the new Spectrum K4's and I am considering doing some > detail changes to make it more representative of the Post-War version. I am > using the Kris Kollar article as a guide, but I am wondering about the water > hatch. I have seen a few photos of Post-War K4 without the antenna. Does > this mean that some K4's kept the original water hatch location if they did > not have the antenna? > Thanks, > Eric > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For > assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 00:19:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] fan trips// Mini-Conventions --part1_3b.279cf95b.2a318e4e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry This sounds like a plausable thing to do and may enhance the overall organization which may lead to even greater attendance at annual conventions. I would be willing to assist in putting something together in Norfolk Va. Steve Keough PRRT&HS 4340 --part1_3b.279cf95b.2a318e4e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry
   This sounds like a plausable thing to do and may enhance the overall organization which may lead to even greater attendance at annual conventions.  I would be willing to assist in putting something together in Norfolk Va.
                                                                                    Steve Keough
                                                                                     PRRT&HS 4340 --part1_3b.279cf95b.2a318e4e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 23:07:32 -0700 From: Steve B Subject: [PRR] Re: South Wind drumhead I believe there's a photo of the South Wind's observation car in "Streamliner Memories" by Mike Schafer which shows the drumhead in color. Unfortunately, I'm away from home and can't check to be sure. However, I have a menu from the South Wind dining car with the weather vane design on it, in color, and would be happy to scan or photograph it for you this weekend. Contact me off list and let me know what resolution you need for the scan. Steve Beals Los Angeles Bobby Bryzinski wrote: > Does anyone know of any good color photos or > references for the "South Wind" passenger train > drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from > vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color > info. Any help is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Bob Bryzinski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:35:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal Project From: Jerry Britton When passenger equipment switched from Bronze Gold (Gold Leaf) to Dulux Gold (Buff) circa 1950, did head end equipment (i.e. B60's, BM70's, R50's) switch also? A private response received in advance says they did go to Dulux, but the question is "when"? My need-to-know is for 1954, but I am guessing that perhaps head-end equipment was not repainted that often during this era, so that perhaps these cars would still be in Bronze Gold. Any opinions? I am working with a major decal manufacturer to produce sets of correct PRR road numbers for various classes of passenger (non Pullman) cars so as to eliminate the need to piece together correct numbers. The good news is that it won't even be considered a special run. The manufacturer is going to add it to their regular line. I am currently planning to include several dozen P85br's and several dozen B60b's, but the sheet will also include some P70kr's, P70gsr's, D85c's, D85d's, some other diners yet to be determined, BM70k's, BM70m's, POC85br's, PLC85, perhaps R50's, and perhaps some others. If anyone has other suggestions, please contact me off-list. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:39:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Update From: Jerry Britton As a dealer, I asked: > How are things looking for the J1e production schedule? > The response: > The demonstrator models should make it toward the end of this month, and the > production models are now expected early August. > I asked: > Anything new to report on the power plant and pulling capability? > The response: > > Yes, we have made substantial improvements. We had a new sample tested by > Dean Windsor, who conducts such tests for Railmodel Journal and he measured a > tractive force of 3.1 ounces, equivalent to 72.17 cars on level track and 14.5 > cars on a 4% grade. > Things are definitely looking up...other than the delay until August...but hey, let's get it right! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal Project Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:47:06 -0400 Jerry, Will this manufacturer also make these decals available in HO? I assume since your an n-scaler that is the scale that your working on getting the decals made in. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:09:52 +0000 Subject: [PRR] When passenger equipment switched from Bronze Gold (Gold Leaf) to Dulux Gold (Buff) circa 1950, did head end equipment (i.e. B60's, BM70's, R50's) switch also? A private response received in advance says they did go to Dulux, but the question is "when"? My need-to-know is for 1954, but I am guessing that perhaps head-end equipment was not repainted that often during this era, so that perhaps these cars would still be in Bronze Gold. Maybe Bill Volkmer would have the definitive answer since his first assignment was at the Penn coach yard at 30th ST. station but I would think that just by the shear numbers of cars that they were changed as shopped. Perhaps the name trains got full matched sets earlier. I would suspect that some lingered possibly into the 60's. I would be more concerned about when the new cars started to appear than the old ones disappear. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:19:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal Project From: Jerry Britton On 6/7/02 11:47 AM, Chany, Christopher at (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > > Will this manufacturer also make these decals available in HO? I assume > since your an n-scaler that is the scale that your working on getting the > decals made in. > Yes, that's the plan, though N scale was driving the need due to the size. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:11:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] R50b lettering (was Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal In a message dated 6/7/02 10:43:55 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Any opinions? >> Not an opinion, but a question, specifically on the R50b. The latest Cylclopedia Vol. 7 which covers express reefers says the R50b switched to Deluxe gold in the 50's. This contradicts information in the Keystone of many years ago and some other sources saying these cars switched away from gold leaf lettering prior to World War II. Any answers from the list? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:30:08 -0400 Listers, For the 1955-1957 era, Would the Athearn f-7's normally be found in ABA or ABBA combinations? Chris Chany PS. Sorry Jerry you got this before I hit the wrong reply button when this went out the first time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:17:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F-7's On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Listers, > For the 1955-1957 era, Would the Athearn f-7's normally be found in ABA or > ABBA combinations? Chris, It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Chris, Looking through some 1950s Pittsburgh Div. dispatch sheets, PRR ran the F-7s in ABA or ABBA sets depending on train tonnage. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:20:46 -0500 No. It cuased quite a sensation in the middle 50s, since it was (then) a highly detailed, plastic engine whose dummy sold for just 89 cents. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 2:17 PM To: Chany, Christopher Cc: 'Bobspf@aol.com'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F-7's On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Listers, > For the 1955-1957 era, Would the Athearn f-7's normally be found in ABA or > ABBA combinations? Chris, It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:42:33 -0400 OK guys it been a long week! I meant did the PRR's F-7's that the Athearn models portray run ABA or ABBA? thanks to Dave for taking me seriously:) Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:20:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b lettering (was Head End Equipment Lettering / On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Not an opinion, but a question, specifically on the R50b. The latest > Cylclopedia Vol. 7 which covers express reefers says the R50b switched to > Deluxe gold in the 50's. This contradicts information in the Keystone of > many years ago and some other sources saying these cars switched away from > gold leaf lettering prior to World War II. Any answers from the list? Yeah, I noticed that too. I think its an oops on the part of the Cyclopedia given the rather extensive history presented by one of our list member of lettering on the R50b (check the January archives) being Dulux well before WWII. I'd look for a correction in volume 8 . Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:28:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Athearn F-7's In a message dated 6/7/02 2:17:33 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) >> Answering both questions, Bruce's first, I think the Globe F came out in the early 50's . I think that is about right because it was one of the few model rail things I could afford in my teen years (about $1 if I remember, dummy unit only). I promptly painted it in a nice forest green, my version of DGLE as I knew it from other models :-). Pennsy went away from the 6000 horsepower sets beginning with the delivery of the F3 helpers in 1949 which were ABA. They also began breaking up the Erie-builts, for example, into AA and AB sets instead of ABA as delivered. I'm not in a position to look at my other references, but when did they start the MU jumper cables in the noses? After that any combination of diesels (except Baldwins) could be found. I presume the original question referred to the mainline. Single A or AA, AB combos were used on the Peoria branch, for example. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:31:29 +0000 I'm going to hazzard an educated guess but based on the fact that three set F3's were quickly upgraded to four units and 6000HP and three F7's should be 5250 HP that they were probably run as three unit sets in the flat lands and four unit sets of 7000HP on the Pgh and Middle divisions. Norm Bell > OK guys it been a long week! I meant did the PRR's F-7's that the Athearn > models portray run ABA or ABBA? thanks to Dave for taking me seriously:) > > Chris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:45:45 -0500 The philosphy behind whether the units were run in sets of A-B-B-A or A-B-A is covered in the Herismaki books describing the transition from steam to diesel. I thin they are titled "Black Gold Black Diamonds" or something like that. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 3:29 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Athearn F-7's In a message dated 6/7/02 2:17:33 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) >> Answering both questions, Bruce's first, I think the Globe F came out in the early 50's . I think that is about right because it was one of the few model rail things I could afford in my teen years (about $1 if I remember, dummy unit only). I promptly painted it in a nice forest green, my version of DGLE as I knew it from other models :-). Pennsy went away from the 6000 horsepower sets beginning with the delivery of the F3 helpers in 1949 which were ABA. They also began breaking up the Erie-builts, for example, into AA and AB sets instead of ABA as delivered. I'm not in a position to look at my other references, but when did they start the MU jumper cables in the noses? After that any combination of diesels (except Baldwins) could be found. I presume the original question referred to the mainline. Single A or AA, AB combos were used on the Peoria branch, for example. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:39:42 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Athearn's F-7's Chris and all, I am surprised Dan Cupper didn't jump all over this... 3^) The answer can be found in the Withers Book on the F-units.The PRR broke up the set starting in the 50's as they were trying to set a standard for moving tonnage system wide. I am at work and can't give you the exact date the decision was made., but the book will tell you. I advise anyone wishng to get a good indepth look at Pennsy F-unit, but this book. This is not to say you won't see more than 3 units on a train, but it clearly documents when the PRR's buying patterns changed from 4 unit sets to 3 unit set and when they received more "A's" in their order to break up the B-uints from 4 unit sets. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 21:02:52 -0700 From: Steve Subject: [PRR] Re: South Wind drumhead Well, now that I'm home and have access to my books I have to admit I was guessing when I said the South Wind observation car was seen in "Streamliner Memories." The correct reference is "A Golden Decade of Trains: The 1950s In Color" by Robert R. Malinoski. Page four has a color photo of the author with PRR POC70R #1129 displaying the South Wind drumhead. The menu I mentioned in my previous post has the same design and colors except the rooster is in red rather than black as shown on the drumhead in the photo noted above. Steve Beals Los Angeles Bobby Bryzinski wrote: > Does anyone know of any good color photos or > references for the "South Wind" passenger train > drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from > vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color > info. Any help is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Bob Bryzinski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Black Gold, Black Diamonds Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:29:56 -0400 How many volumes of Black Gold, Black Diamonds have been released? I have the first two but can't for the life of me remember whether there was a third. TIA Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Steam Locomotive Class Repairs Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:39:35 -0400 For those interested in this topic I have a thread going on Railfan-Message Index at: http://www.chaski.com/cgi-bin/webbbs_food/webbbs_cfg_rfan.pl?#3200 Check that site every few days for the latest. Interesting discussion with condradictory information (what else is new?). Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:54:39 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Columbus replacing Dennison as a classification center/shops circa 1922? In a message dated 6/8/02 2:30:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Flores > Subject: Re: Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 > > I am not sure if this has any realvance, but I think > these events occured shortly after construction about > 1920, and I will have to check the facts, of the > growth of the Columbus facilities. So there might be > some possibility that these functions were carried out > in Columbus, as opposed to Dennison. Does this sound > possible. I will check with Dick Jacobs, he could > very well know. I spoke with him the other day, and > he pointed out that the drawings that he has were from > 1921, I think. Columbus was a substantial facliity by > this time. Just a maybe?? > Bob Flores > Bob, I'm looking forward to hearing about this... I agree that Dennison could not have been shut down without corresponding changes already in place in Columbus. My guess is that (assuming my Dennison story isn't full of holes, always a possibility with oral history), like honest workmen in many other situations, the switchmen in 1921/22 just picked the dumbest possible time to strike. Incidentally -- whatever else you may say about the Teamsters Union past and present -- within the transportation industry, their headquarters unit is respected for its knowledge of business and economics. The Teamsters are savvy enough to know when to hold and when to fold, and have a good track record of getting the most for their employees with the least time off striking. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:54:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Columbus replacing Dennison as a classification --part1_14c.f0683bc.2a3390cf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 2:30:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Flores > Subject: Re: Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 > > I am not sure if this has any realvance, but I think > these events occured shortly after construction about > 1920, and I will have to check the facts, of the > growth of the Columbus facilities. So there might be > some possibility that these functions were carried out > in Columbus, as opposed to Dennison. Does this sound > possible. I will check with Dick Jacobs, he could > very well know. I spoke with him the other day, and > he pointed out that the drawings that he has were from > 1921, I think. Columbus was a substantial facliity by > this time. Just a maybe?? > Bob Flores > Bob, I'm looking forward to hearing about this... I agree that Dennison could not have been shut down without corresponding changes already in place in Columbus. My guess is that (assuming my Dennison story isn't full of holes, always a possibility with oral history), like honest workmen in many other situations, the switchmen in 1921/22 just picked the dumbest possible time to strike. Incidentally -- whatever else you may say about the Teamsters Union past and present -- within the transportation industry, their headquarters unit is respected for its knowledge of business and economics. The Teamsters are savvy enough to know when to hold and when to fold, and have a good track record of getting the most for their employees with the least time off striking. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_14c.f0683bc.2a3390cf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 2:30:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Bob Flores <bobflores99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922

I am not sure if this has any realvance, but I think
these events occured shortly after construction about
1920, and I will have to check the facts, of the
growth of the Columbus facilities.  So there might be
some possibility that these functions were carried out
in Columbus, as opposed to Dennison.  Does this sound
possible.  I will check with Dick Jacobs, he could
very well know.  I spoke with him the other day, and
he pointed out that the drawings that he has were from
1921, I think.  Columbus was a substantial facliity by
this time.  Just a maybe??  
    Bob Flores


Bob,
I'm looking forward to hearing about this... I agree that Dennison could not have been shut down without corresponding changes already in place in Columbus.

My guess is that (assuming my Dennison story isn't full of holes, always a possibility with oral history), like honest workmen in many other situations, the switchmen in 1921/22 just picked the dumbest possible time to strike.

Incidentally -- whatever else you may say about the Teamsters Union past and present -- within the transportation industry, their headquarters unit is respected for its knowledge of business and economics.  The Teamsters are savvy enough to know when to hold and when to fold, and have a good track record of getting the most for their employees with the least time off striking.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_14c.f0683bc.2a3390cf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:54:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code --part1_189.8db04d8.2a3390d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/02 12:33:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: "MS60" > From: "Rick Miskell" > Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400 > > Hi Group. > I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and > in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as a > class > anywhere. The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well > as > X-42's. Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really > a > B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no one > seems to have data available for on the net? > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Miskell > Hi Rick -- a good question. MS60 isn't a real class. Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide this was code for any car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it? Thus, if I were the responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch... 1. a PRR B60b (from a cast of thousands) 2. an X42 (if one of the ten was available) 3. a New Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or available baggage cars from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc. The PRR handled lots of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had to be all-steel east of Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the PRR's "firewall" for keeping wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York tunnels). I suppose in an emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 BX's (the passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried REA markings). The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 class -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after conversion from the M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere with bulk carloading. I do find it fascinating that certain regularly scheduled headend hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an MS60 -- and this can be in the same train! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_189.8db04d8.2a3390d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/02 12:33:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: "MS60"
From: "Rick Miskell" <rmiskell+@pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400

Hi Group.
I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and
in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as a class
anywhere.  The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well as
X-42's.  Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really a
B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no one
seems to have data available for on the net?
Thanks in advance.

Rick Miskell


Hi Rick -- a good question.

MS60 isn't a real class.  Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide this was code for any car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it?  Thus, if I were the responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch...

1. a PRR B60b (from a cast of thousands)
2. an X42 (if one of the ten was available)
3. a New Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or available baggage cars from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc.  The PRR handled lots of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had to be all-steel east of Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the PRR's "firewall" for keeping wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York tunnels).

I suppose in an emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 BX's (the passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried REA markings).  The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 class -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after conversion from the M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere with bulk carloading.

I do find it fascinating that certain regularly scheduled headend hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an MS60 -- and this can be in the same train!



Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_189.8db04d8.2a3390d1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 19:14:46 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Rick & List- According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class. My list states the following: MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 1/53 ORPTE lists; MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:46:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code In a message dated 6/8/02 6:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: << According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class. My list states the following: MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32, etc >> I am intrigued by your input and it certainly is food for thought, but the X-42 was built in 1950 and my August 1945 passenger consists refer to MS60 and I believe my prewar consists do as well. I wonder if the reference in your ORPTE to X-42 after MS60 was not a mutually exclusive term, but merely gave the MS60 designation to the X42, among others. I confess all my research is secondary and is not primary, but my most recent understanding was as stated by a couple posters, that MS60 was the term for a postal requirement for 60 feet of mail storage space, to be filled by a B60, B70, two X29s, a B74, whatever met the minimum. Bob Zoeller Bayside, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:50:46 -0400 I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. I'm not sure if in '31 the MS60's and B60's were merged and afterwards the MS60 became a proxy class as has been mentioned but it does appear that there was for a while at least a true class MS60. There's also an undated diagram for a MS70 which was never built... Also, it's obvious that the cars in the diagram I have aren't the cars mentioned by Edmond. His list is more indicative of the MS60 being an alias for other classes, in his example the X42's... Unfortunately the MS60 diagrams aren't on my site yet.. As soon as I find the time I have an inch thick pile of photocopies of passenger car diagrams from Bob to scan and these are in the stack.. Rob http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Edmond L. Freed Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:15 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Rick & List- According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class. My list states the following: MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 1/53 ORPTE lists; MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:40:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Black Gold, Black Diamonds From: Jerry Britton On 6/8/02 9:29 AM, William Bigler at (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > How many volumes of Black Gold, Black Diamonds have been released? I have > the first two but can't for the life of me remember whether there was a > third. TIA > In the back of volume two, Hirskimaki states that the plan is for five volumes, with the fifth being a recap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:31:17 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Hi Rob, Eddie, & list members, Rob wrote: > I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown > on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has > stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. > Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that > the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's > revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. Also Eddie wrote: > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > class. This all is in sync with what I have & know about the class. I have a copy of PRR photo collection image #7453 entitled "MS-60 Postal Storage Car 7298, side view, reproduction" Image shows a plain B60 (not B60b) car, still as-built with the four windows on each side. The windows have security bars on the interior. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:31:17 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Passenger-equipped X29 w/o REA lettering Hi list, The MS-60 discussion got me thinking of another topic I have been meaning to ask about. Were passenger-equipped X29 cars always lettered for Railway Express Agency (or predecessor American Railway Express)? Or were some passenger-equipped X29 cars painted w/o REA lettering? I'm thinking that there must have been services for some of these cars, such as storage mail or movement of company supplies, which would have been entirely unrelated to REA in any way... Anyone know anything more definitive on this topic? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 14:46:56 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] New PRR Diesel Book Have I missed the announcement but I noticed in the latest issue of Mainline Modeler that they are bringing out a book on PRR diesels 1924-1968. There can never be enough books written on the Pennsy. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR MP54 Model question From: "mkwb@excite.com" Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:17:41 -0400 (EDT) --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__2f1504fd1c3dc2a1f2b86f4154b00dce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Two questions concerning the model market for HO scale PRR MP54 MU cars: 1) I'm preparing to produce resin kits for these cars. (One-piece bodies, metal floors and trucks, pantographs.) Right now, I'm only planning to produce the coach version. Is there significant interest in the other types (combine, baggage, etc.)? Would anyone like to see these produced in addition to the coaches? 2) Does anyone have a Railworks MP54 powered or dummy coach they'd like to sell me? (Painted or unpainted, it doesn't matter.) If not, can you provide a lead? I know of a few places that have some 2-car sets, but I'd rather get just a single unit if possible. Thanks, Mike Bartel Imperial Hobby Productions http://ihphobby.tripod.com mkwb@excite.com ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__2f1504fd1c3dc2a1f2b86f4154b00dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all,

Two questions concerning the model market for HO scale PRR MP54 MU cars:

1) I'm preparing to produce resin kits for these cars. (One-piece bodies, metal floors and trucks, pantographs.) Right now, I'm only planning to produce the coach version. Is there significant interest in the other types (combine, baggage, etc.)? Would anyone like to see these produced in addition to the coaches?

2) Does anyone have a Railworks MP54 powered or dummy coach they'd like to sell me? (Painted or unpainted, it doesn't matter.) If not, can you provide a lead? I know of a few places that have some 2-car sets, but I'd rather get just a single unit if possible.

Thanks,

Mike Bartel
Imperial Hobby Productions
http://ihphobby.tripod.com
mkwb@excite.com





Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__2f1504fd1c3dc2a1f2b86f4154b00dce-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:22:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C20FEB.08703DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I researched the B-60 history last year for publication and found = reference to B-60's that were outfitted with mail bag hanging hooks. = These appear to only have been in use for a short time then the cars = were remodeled and the mail fixtures scrapped. Below are several quotes = relating to the MS-60 that I wrote in my article.=20 PRR tracing C68288B "B60, MS60 General Arrangement" notes that "Windows = have been removed 4-25-1924". =20 In the late 1920's, the MS60's were phased out and rebuilt as B60's, = adding to the fleet. The actual date the phasing out process began may = coincide with the introduction of the B60b. This was an easy rebuild as = class MS60 differed from B60 in only three ways: by having stanchions = inside for hanging mail sacks, by the mail bag crash bars in the = windows, and the lettering "United States Mail Storage" instead of = listing an express company name.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 12:54 PM Subject: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code In a message dated 6/7/02 12:33:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: "MS60" From: "Rick Miskell" Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400 Hi Group. I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at = Harrisburg" and in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as = a class anywhere. The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as = well as X-42's. Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is = really a B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that = no one seems to have data available for on the net? Thanks in advance. Rick Miskell Hi Rick -- a good question. MS60 isn't a real class. Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide = this was code for any car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it? = Thus, if I were the responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch... 1. a PRR B60b (from a cast of thousands) 2. an X42 (if one of the ten was available) 3. a New Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or = available baggage cars from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc. The = PRR handled lots of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had = to be all-steel east of Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the = PRR's "firewall" for keeping wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York = tunnels). I suppose in an emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 = BX's (the passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried = REA markings). The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 = class -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after = conversion from the M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere = with bulk carloading. I do find it fascinating that certain regularly scheduled headend = hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an MS60 -- and = this can be in the same train! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C20FEB.08703DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I researched the B-60 history last year = for=20 publication and found reference to B-60's that were outfitted with mail = bag=20 hanging hooks.  These appear to only have been in use for a short = time then=20 the cars were remodeled and the mail fixtures scrapped.  Below are = several=20 quotes relating to the MS-60 that I wrote in my article. 

PRR tracing C68288B "B60, MS60 General Arrangement" notes that = "Windows have=20 been removed 4-25-1924". 

In the late 1920's, the MS60's were phased out and rebuilt as B60's, = adding=20 to the fleet. The actual date the phasing out process began may coincide = with=20 the introduction of the B60b. This was an easy = rebuild as=20 class MS60 differed from B60 in only three ways: by having stanchions = inside for=20 hanging mail sacks, by the mail bag crash bars in the windows, and the = lettering=20 "United States Mail Storage" instead of listing an express company name. =

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 = 12:54=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] MS60 a proxy = code

In a message dated 6/7/02 = 12:33:01 AM=20 Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: "MS60"
From: "Rick Miskell" <rmiskell+@pitt.edu>
Date: = Thu, 06=20 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400

Hi Group.
I've noticed several = references=20 to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and
in a couple other = references=20 I've accumulated but can't find this as a class
anywhere.  = The same=20 references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well = as
X-42's. =20 Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really = a
B60=20 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no=20 one
seems to have data available for on the net?
Thanks in=20 advance.

Rick Miskell


Hi Rick -- a good question.

MS60 isn't a = real=20 class.  Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide this was code = for any=20 car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it?  Thus, if I were = the=20 responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch...

1. a PRR B60b = (from a=20 cast of thousands)
2. an X42 (if one of the ten was = available)
3. a New=20 Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or available baggage = cars=20 from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc.  The PRR = handled lots=20 of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had to be all-steel = east of=20 Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the PRR's "firewall" for = keeping=20 wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York tunnels).

I suppose = in an=20 emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 BX's (the=20 passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried REA=20 markings).  The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 = class=20 -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after conversion = from the=20 M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere with bulk=20 carloading.

I do find it fascinating that certain regularly = scheduled=20 headend hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an = MS60 --=20 and this can be in the same train!



Rick = Tipton
Louisville=20 KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines = West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C20FEB.08703DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:35:40 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Steam loco in Hockessin, DE Can anyone provide info about the 0-6-0 located at Rt. 41 near Valley Rd. in Hockessin, Delaware? Is there info on a website? Ken Meyer Bel Air, MD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam loco in Hockessin, DE Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:43:48 -0400 Ken, Believe that is the power for the Wilmington & Western tourist railroad You might check to see if they are on http://www.traininc.org the Tourist Railway Association website.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Meyer" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam loco in Hockessin, DE > Can anyone provide info about the 0-6-0 located at Rt. 41 near Valley > Rd. in Hockessin, Delaware? Is there info on a website? > Ken Meyer > Bel Air, MD > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:20:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] 0-6-0 at Hockessin, De --part1_d8.18e6ce6f.2a35e582_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may be asking about the PRR B6sa that is somewhat cosmetically restored and on display next to the highway. It is privately owned and was for years sitting forlorn at a steel mill in the Pittsburgh arzea until rescued several years ago. Missing a lot of parts but, hey, it survives! --part1_d8.18e6ce6f.2a35e582_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may be asking about the PRR B6sa that is somewhat cosmetically
restored and on display next to the highway. It is privately owned and
was for years sitting forlorn at a steel mill in the Pittsburgh arzea until
rescued several years ago. Missing a lot of parts but, hey, it survives! --part1_d8.18e6ce6f.2a35e582_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:06:16 -0400 Rob: The scan of the B60 floorplan that you show on your site http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg is the mail version of the baggage car. This version only lasted until about 1927(?), then was converted to a plain B60. This version as shown may be a modified MS60 car. Since the floor plan does not show windows in the walls, it may have been drawn after 1924 when the modification of closing up the 4 original window openings was apparently completed. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Schoenberg" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:17 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > All I have are the equipment diagrams that show a sketch of > the major features and dimensions of the cars. > > The B60 diagrams I currently have online are at > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg > The M60 and a few other variants of B60's are in the > coming soon pile. I can send you scans if you'd like.. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:28 PM > To: Rob Schoenberg > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > Rob: > > I am ready to submit an article for publication on the B-60 (MS-60) and > would appreciate a copy of whatever you have on the subject. I would like > to incorporate all the info known if I can. I will await your reply. > > Lew Matt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > To: ; ; "PRR-Talk" > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 9:50 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown > > on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has > > stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. > > Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that > > the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's > > revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. > > > > I'm not sure if in '31 the MS60's and B60's were merged and afterwards > > the MS60 became a proxy class as has been mentioned but it does appear > > that there was for a while at least a true class MS60. > > > > There's also an undated diagram for a MS70 which was never built... > > > > Also, it's obvious that the cars in the diagram I have aren't the cars > > mentioned by Edmond. His list is more indicative of the MS60 being an > > alias for other classes, in his example the X42's... > > > > Unfortunately the MS60 diagrams aren't on my site yet.. As soon as I > > find the time I have an inch thick pile of photocopies of passenger car > > diagrams from Bob to scan and these are in the stack.. > > > > Rob > > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dr. > > Edmond L. Freed > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:15 PM > > To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > > > Rick & List- > > > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > > > Regards, > > > > Eddie > > > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > > PRRT&HS # 156 > > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:06:16 -0400 Rob: The scan of the B60 floorplan that you show on your site http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg is the mail version of the baggage car. This version only lasted until about 1927(?), then was converted to a plain B60. This version as shown may be a modified MS60 car. Since the floor plan does not show windows in the walls, it may have been drawn after 1924 when the modification of closing up the 4 original window openings was apparently completed. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Schoenberg" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:17 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > All I have are the equipment diagrams that show a sketch of > the major features and dimensions of the cars. > > The B60 diagrams I currently have online are at > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg > The M60 and a few other variants of B60's are in the > coming soon pile. I can send you scans if you'd like.. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:28 PM > To: Rob Schoenberg > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > Rob: > > I am ready to submit an article for publication on the B-60 (MS-60) and > would appreciate a copy of whatever you have on the subject. I would like > to incorporate all the info known if I can. I will await your reply. > > Lew Matt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > To: ; ; "PRR-Talk" > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 9:50 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown > > on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has > > stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. > > Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that > > the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's > > revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. > > > > I'm not sure if in '31 the MS60's and B60's were merged and afterwards > > the MS60 became a proxy class as has been mentioned but it does appear > > that there was for a while at least a true class MS60. > > > > There's also an undated diagram for a MS70 which was never built... > > > > Also, it's obvious that the cars in the diagram I have aren't the cars > > mentioned by Edmond. His list is more indicative of the MS60 being an > > alias for other classes, in his example the X42's... > > > > Unfortunately the MS60 diagrams aren't on my site yet.. As soon as I > > find the time I have an inch thick pile of photocopies of passenger car > > diagrams from Bob to scan and these are in the stack.. > > > > Rob > > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dr. > > Edmond L. Freed > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:15 PM > > To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > > > Rick & List- > > > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > > > Regards, > > > > Eddie > > > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > > PRRT&HS # 156 > > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:49:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR water companies Ever since the exchanges about NC/NG tower and the water-works in the Indian Creek valley, I've been combing the Dreaded Basement and have yet to find the @#$% book I cited. However, I did come up with the Valuation Report on PRR, circa 1918, which, under "Investments in Other Companies", sub-head "Affiliated noncarrier companies", sub-sub-head "Stocks", has a list which includes the following: Blair Gap Water Supply Company Blandburg Water Company Citizens Water Company of Scottdale Clearview Water Supply Company Dauphin Consolidated Water Supply Company Dunbar Water Supply Company Greenmount Water Supply Company High Ridge Water Supply Company Katherine Water Company Mountain Water Supply Company Nekoda Water Supply Company Octoraro Water Company Shamokin Dam Water Company South River Water Company Summit Water Supply Company Tipton Water Company <--- Attention, Rick. Trout Run Water Supply Company Winslow Water Company Persons interested in the amounts of the investments may consult: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/ select "Pennsylvania Railroad" and then "Investment in Other..." All this proves nothing in particular, but does indicate that PRR had a keen interest in water. The Pennsylvania Company had a similarly long list of "other companies", but hardly any water companies. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Hello List, Got back from Altoona yesterday and saw first hand the sad state of the Railroader's Museum. Just as I walked through the doors, two employees were crying. They had just lost thier jobs at the museum. I think only one person was working there. The gift shop was bare. Hoseshoe Curve wasn't too much better. Gift shop empty. Maybe two people working. The trees have not been cut,( as promised) and the GP-9 is slowly being vandalized. I guess the K4's Roundhouse Project will be put on hold. I really hope things work out for the museum. It's a great museum dedicated to the Pennsy,it's workforce, and the city of Altoona. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Summer 2002 Keystone Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:42:55 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21145.82509550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Got my Summer 2002 Keystone yesterday. There is a modeling article in it. "Scratch-building an NX23 Cabin Car" by Chuck Cover. I'll leave any comments up to the more knowledgeable denizens of the list. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21145.82509550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Listers,
 
Got my Summer 2002 Keystone yesterday.  There is a modeling article in it.  "Scratch-building an NX23 Cabin Car" by Chuck Cover.   I'll leave any comments up to the more knowledgeable denizens of the list.
 
 
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C21145.82509550-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:11:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Paul Harvey's old adage "Nobody ever spent themselves rich." is correct. The Galveston Railroad Museum ran into similar problems a few years ago. Instead of being frugal, tons of money were spent (pissed away -pardon my French) on administration and a fiasco of a fund raising effort that cost something like $70,000 and netted $20,000. The Museum spiraled downward and eventually the bloated staff was pared to an Executive Director, a janitor, and 4 or 5 part timers who man the ticket booths. Car maintenance was never a priority under the old regime, and there is no money now, so it is creeping along whenever I can spend some time down there, or can attract volunteers to help. The Museum has been limping along like this since before I got involved in 1996. My observation after 6 years on the Board is that visitors will come to look at static displays only so many times. Something has to move. If the K-4 is ever finished, and they run it occasionally at Altoona, I suspect there will be a line out the door and down the street waiting to get in. Couple of weeks ago I spent a Saturday morning with a group of Girl Scouts who spent the night in our Pullman cars and gave them rides in the cab of our diesel switcher. They were thrilled beyond belief, and this has resulted in at least one Boy Scout Railroading Merit Badge class being scheduled, which will bring additional funds into the Museum coffers. The Altoona Museum was great when I visited a couple of years ago. Lots of interactive stuff in the building, very well presented displays, etc. BUT, Interactive and static displays will carry you only so far. People like to get up close and personal with real equipment, particularly running equipment. Perhaps Altoona should expand beyond what they were doing. Offer merit badge classes. Offer a "Hand on the Throttle" program (if there is anyplace to run an engine). Attract volunteers. A lot of rail nerds will jump at the chance to put in sweat equity if they have a chance of sitting at the throttle of a real engine. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY >Date: Mon, 10 Jun, 2002, 21:07 > > > Hello List, > > Got back from Altoona yesterday and saw first hand the sad state of > the Railroader's Museum. Just as I walked through the doors, two > employees were crying. They had just lost thier jobs at the museum. I > think only one person was working there. The gift shop was bare. > Hoseshoe Curve wasn't too much better. Gift shop empty. Maybe two > people working. The trees have not been cut,( as promised) and the GP-9 > is slowly being vandalized. > I guess the K4's Roundhouse Project will be put on hold. I really > hope things work out for the museum. It's a great museum dedicated to > the Pennsy,it's workforce, and the city of Altoona. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:34:08 -0500 Last time I was at the Galveston RR museum, there was a poring rain. One of the cars leaked like a sieve. And all smelled very musty. This is a shame, since at least one of the Pullmans appears to represent a very early effort at conversion to all private room facilites, with compartments, drawing rooms, and double bed rooms. I remember one person (maybe you) who was in an adjeacent building running his trains on an HO layout. He dscribed the events you describe below. My question: has any of these events resulted in increased funding for the museum? -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 8:12 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Paul Harvey's old adage "Nobody ever spent themselves rich." is correct. The Galveston Railroad Museum ran into similar problems a few years ago. Instead of being frugal, tons of money were spent (pissed away -pardon my French) on administration and a fiasco of a fund raising effort that cost something like $70,000 and netted $20,000. The Museum spiraled downward and eventually the bloated staff was pared to an Executive Director, a janitor, and 4 or 5 part timers who man the ticket booths. Car maintenance was never a priority under the old regime, and there is no money now, so it is creeping along whenever I can spend some time down there, or can attract volunteers to help. The Museum has been limping along like this since before I got involved in 1996. My observation after 6 years on the Board is that visitors will come to look at static displays only so many times. Something has to move. If the K-4 is ever finished, and they run it occasionally at Altoona, I suspect there will be a line out the door and down the street waiting to get in. Couple of weeks ago I spent a Saturday morning with a group of Girl Scouts who spent the night in our Pullman cars and gave them rides in the cab of our diesel switcher. They were thrilled beyond belief, and this has resulted in at least one Boy Scout Railroading Merit Badge class being scheduled, which will bring additional funds into the Museum coffers. The Altoona Museum was great when I visited a couple of years ago. Lots of interactive stuff in the building, very well presented displays, etc. BUT, Interactive and static displays will carry you only so far. People like to get up close and personal with real equipment, particularly running equipment. Perhaps Altoona should expand beyond what they were doing. Offer merit badge classes. Offer a "Hand on the Throttle" program (if there is anyplace to run an engine). Attract volunteers. A lot of rail nerds will jump at the chance to put in sweat equity if they have a chance of sitting at the throttle of a real engine. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY >Date: Mon, 10 Jun, 2002, 21:07 > > > Hello List, > > Got back from Altoona yesterday and saw first hand the sad state of > the Railroader's Museum. Just as I walked through the doors, two > employees were crying. They had just lost thier jobs at the museum. I > think only one person was working there. The gift shop was bare. > Hoseshoe Curve wasn't too much better. Gift shop empty. Maybe two > people working. The trees have not been cut,( as promised) and the GP-9 > is slowly being vandalized. > I guess the K4's Roundhouse Project will be put on hold. I really > hope things work out for the museum. It's a great museum dedicated to > the Pennsy,it's workforce, and the city of Altoona. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:55:27 +0000 I think there are a couple of problems that can't be fixed. Altoona really isn't convenient even to those passing through PA on I-80 or the turnpike. The average tourist just isn't into a historical railroad presentaion for their vacation. Maybe someone into transportation history but most people want sonething fun and upbeat. Altoona isn't it and never will be unfortunately. Don't forget most out of state people are on their way somewhere and it would take a minimum of three hours to detour there. You have to really want to go there. Secondly, If I am an out of state visitor and I have a choice of Steamtown with running equipment or Altoona with a static display I am heading for Steamtown for the variety alone. We are biased in our assessment of what makes Altoona worth visiting. If you are Mom and Pop passing through and you have a choice of Gettysburg, Hershey, Steamtown or Altoona which one wins out? Probably not Altoona. If they put track three back on the curve so they don't interfere with NS trains and use it to run excursions up to Galitzen and back I'll be the first in line (so will a lot of other people probably). I go "home" to Philadelphia on rare occasions now. I used to go quite regularly when my parents were alive. I have only been able to stop at the curve twice in 30-40 visits east due to all the family considerations. When you have a drive to Chicago to complete you can't stay for very long. The Railroaders museum for me will be an after retirement event if it is still around then. Those of you who can jump in the car and take a day to visit the PRR don't know how fortunate you are. How many times a year do you visit? I doubt if you go there more than once or twice. I don't think the long term prognosis is good under any scenario. There just isn't a large enough, close enough interested population to make it go. Just my opinion, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:04:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tipton, Pennsylvania on the PRR --part1_8.278b355e.2a375d50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 1:11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR water companies > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:49:11 -0700 (PDT) > > Ever since the exchanges about NC/NG tower and the > water-works in the Indian Creek valley, I've been > combing the Dreaded Basement and have yet to find the > @#$% book I cited. > > However, I did come up with the Valuation Report on > PRR, circa 1918, which, under "Investments in Other > Companies", sub-head "Affiliated noncarrier > companies", sub-sub-head "Stocks", has a list which > includes the following: > > Blair Gap Water Supply Company > Blandburg Water Company > Citizens Water Company of Scottdale > Clearview Water Supply Company > Dauphin Consolidated Water Supply Company > Dunbar Water Supply Company > Greenmount Water Supply Company > High Ridge Water Supply Company > Katherine Water Company > Mountain Water Supply Company > Nekoda Water Supply Company > Octoraro Water Company > Shamokin Dam Water Company > South River Water Company > Summit Water Supply Company > Tipton Water Company <--- Attention, Rick. > Trout Run Water Supply Company > Winslow Water Company > > Persons interested in the amounts of the investments > may consult: > > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/ > > select "Pennsylvania Railroad" and then "Investment in > Other..." > > All this proves nothing in particular, but does > indicate that PRR had a keen interest in water. The > Pennsylvania Company had a similarly long list of > "other companies", but hardly any water companies. > > > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > Thanks Bob, Tipton PA is a small town (and ETT point) between Altoona and Tyrone. As such, it seems reasonable that their water company fits the pattern of your list -- probably sources of locomotive water, for one thing. When I visited Tipton PA, I saw 1. the main line 2. the Tipton Volunteer Fire Department, and 3. the Tipton plant of PPG or PPG Paints As I say, it's a small town. Incidentally, I've never been able to pick up the tale of the naming of Tipton PA. Even though the bulk of American Tiptons lived in Maryland or points south and west, I've heard of a few Tiptons in central and northern Pennsylvania. Rick Tipton Only slightly behind on the geneology beloved of my Tipton cousins. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_8.278b355e.2a375d50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 1:11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: PRR water companies
From: "robert netzlof" <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:49:11 -0700 (PDT)

Ever since the exchanges about NC/NG tower and the
water-works in the Indian Creek valley, I've been
combing the Dreaded Basement and have yet to find the
@#$% book I cited.

However, I did come up with the Valuation Report on
PRR, circa 1918, which, under "Investments in Other
Companies", sub-head "Affiliated noncarrier
companies", sub-sub-head "Stocks", has a list which
includes the following:

Blair Gap Water Supply Company
Blandburg Water Company
Citizens Water Company of Scottdale
Clearview Water Supply Company 
Dauphin Consolidated Water Supply Company 
Dunbar Water Supply Company
Greenmount Water Supply Company
High Ridge Water Supply Company
Katherine Water Company
Mountain Water Supply Company
Nekoda Water Supply Company
Octoraro Water Company
Shamokin Dam Water Company
South River Water Company
Summit Water Supply Company
Tipton Water Company           <--- Attention, Rick.
Trout Run Water Supply Company
Winslow Water Company

Persons interested in the amounts of the investments
may consult:

http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/

select "Pennsylvania Railroad" and then "Investment in
Other..."

All this proves nothing in particular, but does
indicate that PRR had a keen interest in water. The
Pennsylvania Company had a similarly long list of
"other companies", but hardly any water companies.





=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


Thanks Bob,

Tipton PA is a small town (and ETT point) between Altoona and Tyrone.  As such, it seems reasonable that their water company fits the pattern of your list -- probably sources of locomotive water, for one thing.

When I visited Tipton PA, I saw
1. the main line
2. the Tipton Volunteer Fire Department, and
3. the Tipton plant of PPG or PPG Paints
As I say, it's a small town.

Incidentally, I've never been able to pick up the tale of the naming of Tipton PA.  Even though the bulk of American Tiptons lived in Maryland or points south and west, I've heard of a few Tiptons in central and northern Pennsylvania.

Rick Tipton
Only slightly behind on the geneology beloved of my Tipton cousins.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_8.278b355e.2a375d50_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:04:51 -0500 I don't disagree with what your comments. It's rather unfortunate that about a decade ago, the politicians around Scranton had the political clout to develop Steam town. What wonders could have been done with this same money at Altoona. From any objective historical perspective, Altoona was a much more significant railroading town. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 8:55 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum I think there are a couple of problems that can't be fixed. Altoona really isn't convenient even to those passing through PA on I-80 or the turnpike. The average tourist just isn't into a historical railroad presentaion for their vacation. Maybe someone into transportation history but most people want sonething fun and upbeat. Altoona isn't it and never will be unfortunately. Don't forget most out of state people are on their way somewhere and it would take a minimum of three hours to detour there. You have to really want to go there. Secondly, If I am an out of state visitor and I have a choice of Steamtown with running equipment or Altoona with a static display I am heading for Steamtown for the variety alone. We are biased in our assessment of what makes Altoona worth visiting. If you are Mom and Pop passing through and you have a choice of Gettysburg, Hershey, Steamtown or Altoona which one wins out? Probably not Altoona. If they put track three back on the curve so they don't interfere with NS trains and use it to run excursions up to Galitzen and back I'll be the first in line (so will a lot of other people probably). I go "home" to Philadelphia on rare occasions now. I used to go quite regularly when my parents were alive. I have only been able to stop at the curve twice in 30-40 visits east due to all the family considerations. When you have a drive to Chicago to complete you can't stay for very long. The Railroaders museum for me will be an after retirement event if it is still around then. Those of you who can jump in the car and take a day to visit the PRR don't know how fortunate you are. How many times a year do you visit? I doubt if you go there more than once or twice. I don't think the long term prognosis is good under any scenario. There just isn't a large enough, close enough interested population to make it go. Just my opinion, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:22:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum From: Jerry Britton What is the "financial foundation" of the Altoona museum... Strasburg is a state museum, Steamtown is a National park (or something). Is Altoona locally owned and operated? I agree that, with Altoona being somewhat landlocked, running excursions are probably the only thing that will save it long-term. The museum building is first-rate, but how many times can you look at the same stuff. The prototype collection is pretty poor, and in pretty poor shape. I think if they could arrange one excursion per day it would suffice. Perhaps all the way to Johnstown with a layover for the Johnstown flood museum. But one has to ask, if the museum folds (an extreme possibility), what happens to 1361? I certainly would hope that selfishness could be set aside and the unit willed (or at least loaned) to Strasburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:33:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum --part1_9b.28b6f153.2a376423_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Altoona had one Railroad Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server by railroads than any other US City. Which is the most significant Railroad City? --part1_9b.28b6f153.2a376423_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Altoona had one Railroad
Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server by railroads than any other US City.
Which is the most significant Railroad City? --part1_9b.28b6f153.2a376423_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:44:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum From: Jerry Britton On 6/11/02 10:33 AM, Mouldymay@aol.com (Mouldymay@aol.com) wrote: > Altoona had one Railroad > Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server by > railroads than any other US City. > Which is the most significant Railroad City? And how many Canadian railroads came through? I have to ask since I know a good majority of the collection is Canadian...if only because they started so late! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:28:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum --part1_3c.1f830536.2a377102_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Ditto Norm Bell's comments on the RR's Museum. We visited the Curve and the museum last July on a trip "back" east from Colorado. The trip to Altoona from I-80 is not what one would call a tourist route In fact, if I hadn't grown up in Pa. with its narrow winding roads running past everyones' front porch, I would have found the drive a little stressful. The Turnpike route from the south is much better but still has some sections of narrow, open-access roads. The third route, only a railfan would consider this drive along the mainline from the east as timely. Yes, the museum first suffers from a location problem. Second, the other posting of the downfalls of a static museum is on the mark. The rusting hulks sitting outside can hardly evoke any emotion, whether you are a railfan or casual observer, of anything but decay due to lack of finances (a.k.a.: support). I belonged to the Rough & Tumble Engineers' Museum at Kinzers, Pa., a farm museum that was heavily into steam operations. Every May there was the spring clean up known as Shine-O-Rama where the equipment and the grounds were tidied up. The event was publicized with a fair number of engines under steam and there was a respectable turnout. At this event there would be several traction engines (steam tractors), the steam train ride and a few pieces of steam driven farm equipment in use. In August, there was the annual reunion, where engines were drawn in from all over the country plus Canada. This event lasted all week and had demonstrations ranging from making applebutter, steam models of all descriptions, operating stationary mill engines to traction engines operating a wide range of machinery. The spring event made a little operating income and the August show was the icing on the financial cake. Getting the drift? Annual events to attract gate revenues. Publicity to attract the general public and tour groups; tap the local businesses for support with the incitement of their gaining additional income from museum visitors. May be even a small gauged steam train pulling visitors around that large grassy area so that people not familiar with steam might get a hint of what the museum is about. Tripping out on the far side (this is reaching!), steam runs to the curve or the tunnels and back, may be once or twice a year. After all, Steamtown shouldn't be the only one to host an annual steam weekend. Lastly, if the museum were to adopt a more aggressive attitude towards attracting customers, an annual meeting of volunteers to do restoration work would be in order. Look at what the Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec have done to the old narrow gauge line in Colorado & New Mexico. Could we SPF types stand each others' company for a week or two during the year while doing restoration work? I was totally disheartened to see that GG-1 in such a forlorn state. These were the Queens, the hallmark of Pennsy electrification, which I remember racing by at 85 per on the Philly-Harrisburg passenger runs -- that rust cancered piece at the museum does not convey this. Just some thoughts. See you in your work clothes in Altoona sometime? I could force myself into an annual trip back to Pennsy. Evan Leisey --part1_3c.1f830536.2a377102_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

 Ditto Norm Bell's comments on the RR's Museum.  We visited the Curve and the museum last July on a trip "back" east from Colorado.  The trip to Altoona from I-80 is not what one would call a tourist route  In fact, if I hadn't grown up in Pa. with its narrow winding roads running past everyones' front porch,  I would have found the drive a little stressful.  The  Turnpike route from the south is much better but still has some sections of narrow, open-access roads. The third route, only a railfan would consider this drive along the mainline from the east as timely.  Yes,  the museum first suffers from a location problem.

 Second,  the other posting of the downfalls of a static museum is on the mark.  The rusting hulks sitting outside can hardly evoke any emotion, whether you are a railfan or casual observer,  of anything but decay due to lack of finances (a.k.a.: support).

 I belonged to the Rough & Tumble Engineers' Museum at Kinzers, Pa., a farm museum that was heavily into steam operations.  Every May there was the spring clean up known as Shine-O-Rama where the equipment and the grounds were tidied up.  The event was publicized with a fair number of engines under steam and there was a respectable turnout.  At this event  there would be several traction engines (steam tractors),  the steam train ride and a few pieces of steam driven farm equipment in use.  In August, there was the annual reunion, where engines were drawn in from all over the country plus Canada.  This event lasted all week and had demonstrations ranging from making applebutter, steam models of all descriptions, operating stationary mill engines to traction engines operating a wide range of machinery.  The spring event made a little operating income and the August show was the icing on the financial cake.  

 Getting the drift?  Annual events to attract gate revenues. Publicity to attract the general public and tour groups;  tap the local businesses for support with the incitement of their gaining additional income from museum visitors.  May be even a small gauged steam train pulling visitors around that large grassy area so that people not familiar with steam might get a hint of what the museum is about.  Tripping out on the far side (this is reaching!),  steam runs to the curve or the tunnels and back, may be once or twice a year.  After all,  Steamtown shouldn't be the only one to host an annual steam weekend.

 Lastly,  if the museum were to adopt a more aggressive attitude towards attracting customers,  an annual meeting of volunteers to do restoration work would be in order.  Look at what the Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec have done to the old narrow gauge line in Colorado & New Mexico.  Could we SPF types stand each others' company for a week or two during the year while doing restoration work?  I was totally disheartened to see that GG-1 in such a forlorn state.  These were the Queens, the hallmark of Pennsy electrification, which I remember racing by at 85 per on the Philly-Harrisburg passenger runs  -- that rust cancered piece at the museum does not convey this.

 Just some thoughts.  See you in your work clothes in Altoona sometime?  I could force myself into an annual trip back to Pennsy.

 Evan Leisey




--part1_3c.1f830536.2a377102_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Altoona and the museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:27:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2113B.09B9A820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well- I listened to all your comments and have to voice my opinion. I was = with Dave Hopson this weekend. It was my first trip to the area and = here are my thoughts. Altoona is a phenomenal area to railfan. Nowhere in the world will you = find 3 (4) track main line mountain railroading. The museum was that = of world class exhibition. The exhibits are extremely interactive and = informative. Horseshoe Curve is an engineering marvel and the tunnels = are awesome. We photographed in detail from Alto to Cresson including = Alto tower, slope area, brickyard, MG tower, SF interlocking and the = slide, the old coke ovens by the slide, the portals on both sides, = Gallitzen, UN, AR, the return loops, rt 53 bridge area, and Cresson, = including many of the Lines West signal bridges. I had an incredible visit since the company I was with is very = knowledgible to the area, but the area is not conducive for a world = class museum. Altoona lost all of its industry with the PRR. In other areas, ie. = Philadelphia, you have large corporations/industry like the = pharmaceutical industry that aid in the funding process for education. = Also, other areas have a profficient convention and visitors bureau to = bring people to the area. Cambria and Blair counties dont have much to = offer in reference to facilities for conventions. I looked throught the = visitors guide and did not see much going on as of meeting/comvention = industry events. Furthermore, Horseshoe Curve is a discrace. The curve is so overgrown, = you hear engines, they pop out from the trees, then disappear within 20 = seconds. Numerous beautiful signs at the curve asking for donations so = $10,000 can be raised to match the $40,000 already allocated for tree = removal. How long has that sign been there? A while from what I hear. = The funicular was a waste of money. As beautiful as it is, it was not = needed for the amount of people visiting the curve. A 2-3 person = handicap accessible covered chair lift would have saved tons of money = and serve the purpose. Also, I am very disappointed that the Horseshoe = dedication stonework was removed.=20 I feel many wrong decisions were executed by management and they = obviously did not refer to consultants to do the job. Many company's = would jump at the chance to consult the board on what to do. I know a = few people that would only ask for travelling expenses be paid to come = and look at the situation and map out a plan for progression. As I walked into the museum, the employees at the front desk were crying = because they just lost their jobs. The future, from what I was told, is = to have the majority of the workforce be volunteers running the museum = and Horseshoe. =20 Not to mention, I asked if they had any souvenir whistles for my = nephew(and myself!). I was told how popular they are but they dont have = any in stock. Now it seems operating expenses are being shifted to = cover employee payroll cost. Things don't look good. They definitely = need 1361 running to bring in the people. A running steamer as famous = at 1361 would definitely brighten up the situation. On another note, the Tunnel Inn is thee place to stay. Mike, the owner = is very nice and the facility is spotless. For the price, you cant beat = it. www.thetunnelinn.com Their is something majestic about being on = top of the Allegheny Mountains where immigrant laborers with blood and = sweat handpicked their way through solid rockbed for the PRR and the = grade is at its climax. I hope the museum can get on track. It has so much to offer. The = directors need to get out and start promoting the place. It should have = busloads of school children from all the area schools withing 1 1/2 = hours driving time circumference visiting to learn how the PRR was so = successful at being the first and largest industry America ever had. I cannot wait to return to the area and travel off the beaten path to = those remote areas only seen by hiking in. Well worth the trip. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. Audio-Visual Solutions, Inc. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2113B.09B9A820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well-
 
I listened to all your comments and have to voice my = opinion.  I was with Dave Hopson this weekend.  It was my = first=20 trip to the area and here are my thoughts.
 
Altoona is a phenomenal area to railfan.  = Nowhere in the=20 world will you find  3 (4) track main line mountain = railroading.  The=20 museum was that of world class exhibition.  = The=20 exhibits are extremely interactive and informative.  Horseshoe = Curve is an=20 engineering marvel and the tunnels are awesome.  We photographed in = detail=20 from Alto to Cresson including Alto tower, slope area, brickyard, MG = tower, SF=20 interlocking and the slide, the old coke ovens by the slide, the portals = on both=20 sides, Gallitzen, UN, AR, the return loops, rt 53 bridge area, and = Cresson,=20 including many of the Lines West signal bridges.
 
I had an incredible visit since the company I was = with is very=20 knowledgible to the area, but the area is not conducive for a world = class=20 museum.
 
Altoona lost all of its industry with the PRR.  = In other=20 areas, ie. Philadelphia, you have large corporations/industry like the=20 pharmaceutical industry that aid in the funding process for = education. =20 Also, other areas have a profficient convention and visitors bureau to = bring=20 people to the area.  Cambria and Blair counties dont have much to = offer in=20 reference to facilities for conventions.  I looked throught the = visitors=20 guide and did not see much going on as of meeting/comvention industry=20 events.
 
Furthermore, Horseshoe Curve is a discrace.  = The curve is=20 so overgrown, you hear engines, they pop out from the trees, then = disappear=20 within 20 seconds.  Numerous beautiful signs at the curve asking = for=20 donations so $10,000 can be raised to match the $40,000 already = allocated for=20 tree removal.  How long has that sign been there?  A while = from what I=20 hear.  The funicular was a waste of money.  As beautiful as it = is, it=20 was not needed for the amount of people visiting the curve.  A 2-3 = person=20 handicap accessible covered chair lift would have saved tons of money = and serve=20 the purpose.  Also, I am very disappointed that the Horseshoe = dedication=20 stonework  was removed. 
 
I feel many wrong decisions were executed by = management and=20 they obviously did not refer to consultants to do the job.  Many = company's=20 would jump at the chance to consult the board on what to do.  I = know a few=20 people that would only ask for travelling expenses be paid to come and = look at=20 the situation and map out a plan for progression.
 
As I walked into the museum, the employees at the = front desk=20 were crying because they just lost their jobs.  The future, from = what I was=20 told, is to have the majority of the  workforce be volunteers = running the=20 museum and Horseshoe. 
 
Not to mention, I asked if they had any souvenir = whistles for=20 my nephew(and myself!). I was told how popular they are but they dont = have any=20 in stock.  Now it seems operating expenses are being shifted to = cover=20 employee payroll cost.  Things don't look good.  They = definitely need=20 1361 running to bring in the people.  A running steamer as famous = at 1361=20 would definitely brighten up the situation.
 
On another note, the Tunnel Inn is thee place to = stay. =20 Mike, the owner is very nice and the facility is spotless.  For the = price,=20 you cant beat it.  www.thetunnelinn.com  Their is = something=20 majestic about being on top of the Allegheny Mountains where immigrant = laborers=20 with blood and sweat handpicked their way through solid rockbed for the = PRR and=20 the grade is at its climax.
 
I hope the museum can get on track.  It has so = much to=20 offer.  The directors need to get out and start promoting the = place. =20 It should have busloads of school children from all the area schools = withing 1=20 1/2 hours driving time circumference visiting to learn how the PRR was = so=20 successful at being the first and largest industry America ever=20 had.
 
I cannot wait to return to the area and travel off = the beaten=20 path to those remote areas only seen by hiking in.  Well worth the=20 trip.
 
Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr.
Audio-Visual Solutions,=20 Inc.
------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2113B.09B9A820-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:47:37 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum . . . .but how many cities in North America had a workforce of 16,000 soleoly in the railroad shops, let alone thousands more in train & engine, signal, dispatching, dining-car, office-force, and maintenance-of-way service? Just one. An easy test is to mention the name of the town to anyone at random and ask for a one-word response: When you say "Scranton," the first word that comes to mind is always "coal." When you say "Altoona," the reaction is invariably "railroad." First, last, and always. In Scranton, the railroads supported the coal industry, without which they would never have come to town. In Altoona, the railroad *was* the industry and, for better or worse, *was* the town. That's the distinctive that Altoona brings to the table in a museum and interpretive sense. Scranton has its own story to tell, and the two are not interchangeable. But a fact of life, as noted in many posts here, is that for current-day historic tourism attraction, they do compete. And for the record: -- The area had three short lines, not just the PRR (Wopsononock/Altoona Northern, Glen White, Kittanning Run/S.E.Baker). -- One would think that Chicago, St. Louis/East St. Louis, or Kansas City would easily take the record as city with the most U.S. railroads. Dan Cupper --------------------------- Mouldymay@aol.com wrote: > > Altoona had one Railroad > Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server > by railroads than any other US City. > Which is the most significant Railroad City? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:59:38 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Tie Spec From: Greg Ritacco List, Does anyone have the specs for Pennsy ties, size 5 through 1? Also, I am looking for the spec for the tie used to hold the third rail, and the spacing, though from photos it looks like every fifth tie or so. Thanks much and any references are greatly appreciated. Greg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:08:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum From: Jerry Britton A few thoughts -- if the museum can see itself through another year or two... * As I-99 made traveling to Altoona from the south easier, the north end is currently being extended through State College and will connect direct to I-80 to the east (somewhere near Bellefonte, I believe). This will greatly improve access from the east. * A few weeks ago the Wall Street Journal reported that, get ready for this, Johnstown is seeking to become a convention city! a new convention center is due to open next year. The thought is that since 9/11 many companies wish to avoid big cities. Well, we'll have to wait and see on this one! * Johnstown has a great story to tell (the Flood). Altoona should comarket since they are not far away. * Weekend excursions are a must. If the railroad won't even consider it, then they might as well pull the plug now. * The Curve is operated by the museum, not owned by it. But the attractiveness of the Curve will be increased by cutting down the trees. Forget the $50,000 required to trim. Why don't they just "donate" the resulting wood resources to the company that agrees to clear everything? Seems like a "no brainer" to me! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:21:26 -0400 Four words will save the Museum: Thomas the Tank engine! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:01:51 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Summer 2002 Keystone > Listers, Got my Summer 2002 Keystone yesterday. There is a >modeling article in it. "Scratch-building an NX23 Cabin Car" by Chuck >Cover. I'll leave any comments up to the more knowledgeable denizens of >the list. Chris Chany >From my first read through it seemed to be an interesting article. I am not sure of the quality of the Cannonball X23 parts used, but the article had a nice step by step description. One bone to pick is that it is not a "scratchbuilt" car but rather is clearly a "kitbashed" car! A quick check of the Model RR Warehouse pages http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/default.htm shows that they have an X23/R7 "kit" #840 that has "styrene sides, ends and unique hatches which allow building most any prototype X23, R7 or variation based upon them". I think that their PR might be a little excessive since I'm pretty sure that they only offer vertical sheathing for example...Westerfield is still promising the X23 shortly so it might bear waiting for his to show up! Its nice to see a short modeling article in the Keystone on a subject other than product reviews ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:53:59 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Folks, Geez, here I'm going to spend a couple days in Altoona next week, with the family no less, on my way east, and I'm starting to get a little discouraged. I was there almost exactly a year ago and the museam didn't seem too bad, but I was pressed for time and didn't stay very long. It sounds though like the place has really declined since then. Most likely after dragging everybody to the Curve, Cresson, the Portage railway site and Cassandra, the kids'll be more receptive to the water park than the museam in any event. As regards Scranton's railroads, I'm a little thrown off. I thought I was fairly familar with the existing railroads of half a century ago, but can't come with with nearly 11 lines for Scranton, at least in the 1950's. I come up with DL&W, Erie, O&W, CNJ, D&H and Laurel Line, though there may have been a shortline or two besides. But the O&W and Laurel Line folded up in the 1950's and the Erie was on a branch. This doesn't come close to comparing to places like Chicago in particular, St.Louie, KC, Buffalo, Minneapolis-St.Paul, Des Moines, Omaha, Memphis, Detroit or New Orleans. Perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding something here. I do agree beyond question that Scranton is better situated for tourist traffic and population centers. Certainly, fans in the PA area can be grateful for having Altoona, Steamtown, Strasburg and most PRRT&HS conventions in such a concentrated area. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] N5-c plans Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:29:51 GMT Hi all, I am planning on building a PRR N5c Cabin Car in 1/8" scale (7 1/2" guage) and am looking for some good dimemsionalized drawings on the net that I can use. If anyone can help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance, Howdy Veihdeffer Palmdale, Ca. Transplanted from Clearfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museum/ Scranton Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:29:58 -0400 Barry, While in Altoona, go to Lakemont amusement park, ride the oldest standing wooden roller coaster "Leap-the-dips" I believe it reaches an astonishing 12 mph. Try to catch the curve (the baseball team) Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:54 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Folks, Geez, here I'm going to spend a couple days in Altoona next week, with the family no less, on my way east, and I'm starting to get a little discouraged. I was there almost exactly a year ago and the museam didn't seem too bad, but I was pressed for time and didn't stay very long. It sounds though like the place has really declined since then. Most likely after dragging everybody to the Curve, Cresson, the Portage railway site and Cassandra, the kids'll be more receptive to the water park than the museam in any event. As regards Scranton's railroads, I'm a little thrown off. I thought I was fairly familar with the existing railroads of half a century ago, but can't come with with nearly 11 lines for Scranton, at least in the 1950's. I come up with DL&W, Erie, O&W, CNJ, D&H and Laurel Line, though there may have been a shortline or two besides. But the O&W and Laurel Line folded up in the 1950's and the Erie was on a branch. This doesn't come close to comparing to places like Chicago in particular, St.Louie, KC, Buffalo, Minneapolis-St.Paul, Des Moines, Omaha, Memphis, Detroit or New Orleans. Perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding something here. I do agree beyond question that Scranton is better situated for tourist traffic and population centers. Certainly, fans in the PA area can be grateful for having Altoona, Steamtown, Strasburg and most PRRT&HS conventions in such a concentrated area. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:44:43 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Certainly, fans in the PA area can be grateful for having Altoona, Steamtown, Strasburg and most PRRT&HS conventions in such a concentrated area. Well, that's why its the PENNSYLVANIA Railroad! Lew Matt :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:32:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" >Marvin Caldwell asked: > My question: has any of these events resulted in increased funding for the > museum? Yes they have, and still do. Before I got involved with the Museum, the Museum had a running steam engine - #555, ex-Magma Arizona RR #5. I am told that people were lined up down the concourse, through the waiting room, and out onto the Strand waiting for a ride that was at best 3/4 of a mile long from the depot tracks to the UP interchange. I can believe it. I witnessed the train running one time and the 3 coaches were full. Problem was: they charged only a buck per person and there was a bloated administrative payroll. (Then some bozo fired the engine up wrong and she is out of commission for lack of at least $100,000.) Since I got involved with the Museum, I started the merit badge program. For one class a couple of years ago we (me and 5 other volunteers) taught 96 scouts. They and their adult supervisors brought in over $700 to the Museum in one day, which was more than the Museum took in in gate receipts for the entire month. We can count on a couple of thousand from the classes each year. Not much but better than nothing and sometimes we recruit members or volunteers. We have had several mid summer special events that have brought in between $10,000 and $30,000. The Galveston museum and, I suspect, the Altoona museum cannot survive on gate receipts alone. The folks at the Altoona Museum need to (IMHO, based on what I have observed): a) pare the paid staff and recruit volunteers b) recruit a board with business sense and start making hard decisions about cash flow (another of the Galveston museum's problems was that everyone with any political connections who liked trains got on the board and the result was chaos). c) start small programs that will bring in cash to supplement the gate receipts d) annual or semi annual special events that will really supplement gate receipts. e) make something move. But if they do, make sure the operators know what they are doing. Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:15:27 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museum Hey Yuze Gize... I have read most of all the post over the past couple of weeks of the museum and it's problems. Sad to hear as I have a personal interest in the museum with the donatation of my Athearn/Genesis PRR Locomotives. The last time I check they were sitting in the curators desk drawer (if they are still there at all) and not on display with the photo Louis Marre supplied. Sad... I heard they wanted to put them on their little layout until I told them that if they were looking for that kind of locomotive I would build them some more durable locomotives. Unfortunately, I have never visited the museum, but I always believed that museums were forever. I have visitied a lot of Rail museums on the west coast and I must say they all seem to ebb and flow, just the nature of the beast. They all struggle for proper funding. I remmeber when the California State Railroad Muesum got it's BIG start everyone said that the Orange Empire Railway Museum would likely fold, and it hasn't and it has grown. These institutions all survive on volunteers and donations. Donations come often from private funding and govenment grants.Donations also iinclude museum piece in this case cars and locomotives and such. I am not sure what made it fall on tough times,poor management, poor funding, high ideals, and misdirected visions of the future... the list goes on and on. I have to agree that most Railroad museums offer a means to move people as an attaction, sometimes steam sometime other means. My question to that is does the Museum have the means to do that? Another thing that comes to mind is does the Museum have a public library/collection that is well cataloged and well maintained? This is always a problem even for historical societies, but like the California State Railroad Museum certainly a way to attract membership. The physical condition of a museum in it beginnings is usually taken with a grain of salt by the visitors, like me, they see this as a work in progress. Now that we all realize what reasons that make the museum a tough place to visit, Lord knows it has been 30 years since I have been in Aloona but that is what I think of when I think of THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD, but how can we help figure out why we should all attend this ICON of the industry, that should be the VISION. I hope to make it back next year, Good Lord willing. So far as seeing a K-4 running well, that would be nice but not what attracts me there. My hopes are that those that are involved with the museum would forget Scratton and focus on what is going on in Sacremento at the California State Railroad Museum. I hope that they realize that model diplays is a cheap way to archive all that the Pennsy was about, just as the displays that are at many other museums, and a real layout of the area like the one housed at the Washington State History Museum in Tacoma maintains with its active HO Scale Modelers. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:16:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C21163.4DEB5CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris hit the nail on the head. Thomas the tank engine would do wonders = for the Museum. Barry, don't worry, the museum is still an awesome place = to visit, just don't expect personal attention - not enough people to do = that. As for the bozo who fired the engine up wrong, what is the possibility = that he=20 was the same bozo running 1361 without lubricating the bearings? If Jerry is correct about 9-11 and how Johnstown may be the site for future conventions, then that would save the entire area. Their is = so much history to offer conventioneers. Being in the meeting planning industry, I would most definitely be intereseted into hosting an event = in the Blair/Cambria County area. Johnstown and Altoona are too close to compete with one another for the same audience. The two should unite = and form a Johnstown/Altoona Area Convention Bureau or alliance and = schedule events around each others so the population from one can support the other. It would = be a win-win situation. For those interested , check out the Allegheny Mountains Convention and = Visitors Bureau at www.visitcentralpa.com This will give you an idea to = the area and what is happening at the moment. Going back to an old = talk-list subject, the Allegheny Ridge Heritage Discovery Center in = Altoona can surely support a PRRTHS National convention. =20 Lastly, it is great that Don is getting involve with Scouts and the = meritbadge project. I am an Eaglescout myself and the meritbadge is what = really got me interested in railroads, besides the one under the xmas = tree.=20 I am sure the museum will see profitable days in the future. It is a = matter of time, energy, and productive strategic marketing efforts in = conjunction with area industry. All things grow in time. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. Audio-Visual Solutions, Inc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY > > >Marvin Caldwell asked: > > > My question: has any of these events resulted in increased funding = for the > > museum? > > Yes they have, and still do. > > Before I got involved with the Museum, the Museum had a running steam > engine - #555, ex-Magma Arizona RR #5. I am told that people were = lined up > down the concourse, through the waiting room, and out onto the Strand > waiting for a ride that was at best 3/4 of a mile long from the depot tracks > to the UP interchange. I can believe it. I witnessed the train = running one > time and the 3 coaches were full. Problem was: they charged only a buck > per person and there was a bloated administrative payroll. (Then some bozo > fired the engine up wrong and she is out of commission for lack of at least > $100,000.) > > Since I got involved with the Museum, I started the merit badge = program. > For one class a couple of years ago we (me and 5 other volunteers) = taught 96 > scouts. They and their adult supervisors brought in over $700 to the Museum > in one day, which was more than the Museum took in in gate receipts = for the > entire month. We can count on a couple of thousand from the classes = each > year. Not much but better than nothing and sometimes we recruit = members or > volunteers. > > We have had several mid summer special events that have brought in = between > $10,000 and $30,000. > > The Galveston museum and, I suspect, the Altoona museum cannot survive = on > gate receipts alone. The folks at the Altoona Museum need to (IMHO, based > on what I have observed): > > a) pare the paid staff and recruit volunteers > b) recruit a board with business sense and start making hard = decisions > about cash flow (another of the Galveston museum's problems was that > everyone with any political connections who liked trains got on the = board > and the result was chaos). > c) start small programs that will bring in cash to supplement the = gate > receipts > d) annual or semi annual special events that will really supplement = gate > receipts. > e) make something move. But if they do, make sure the operators know what > they are doing. > > Don Harper > > > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C21163.4DEB5CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris hit the nail on the head.  Thomas the = tank engine=20 would do wonders for
the Museum.   Barry, don't worry, the = museum=20 is still an awesome place to
visit, just don't expect personal = attention -=20 not enough people to do that.

As for the bozo who fired the = engine up=20 wrong, what is the possibility that he
was the same bozo running = 1361=20 without lubricating the bearings?

If Jerry is correct about 9-11 = and how=20 Johnstown may be the site
for future conventions, then that would = save the=20 entire area.  Their is so
much history to offer = conventioneers. =20 Being in the meeting planning
industry, I would most definitely be=20 intereseted into hosting an event in
the Blair/Cambria County = area. =20 Johnstown and Altoona are too close to
compete with one another for = the same=20 audience.  The two should unite and
form a Johnstown/Altoona = Area=20 Convention Bureau  or alliance and schedule events around
each = others so=20 the population from one can support the other.  It would be = a
win-win=20 situation.
 
For those interested , check out the Allegheny = Mountains=20 Convention and Visitors Bureau at www.visitcentralpa.com  This = will give you=20 an idea to the area and what is happening at the moment.  Going = back to an=20 old talk-list subject, the Allegheny Ridge Heritage Discovery Center in = Altoona=20 can surely support a PRRTHS National convention. 
 
Lastly, it is great that Don is getting involve with = Scouts=20 and the meritbadge project. I am an Eaglescout myself and the meritbadge = is what=20 really got me interested in railroads, besides the one under the xmas = tree.=20
 
I am sure the museum will see profitable days in the = future.  It is a matter of time, energy, and productive strategic = marketing=20 efforts in conjunction with area industry.  All things grow in=20 time.
 
Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr.
Audio-Visual Solutions,=20 Inc.
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald E. = Harper,=20 Jr" <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
To: = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: = [PRR]=20 ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY


>
>=20 >Marvin Caldwell asked:
>
> > My question:  has = any of=20 these events resulted in increased funding for
the
> >=20 museum?
>
> Yes they have, and still do.
>
> = Before I=20 got involved with the Museum, the Museum had  a running = steam
>=20 engine - #555, ex-Magma Arizona RR #5.  I am told that people were=20 lined
up
> down the concourse, through the waiting room, and = out onto=20 the Strand
> waiting for a ride that was at best 3/4 of a mile = long from=20 the depot
tracks
> to the UP interchange.  I can believe = it. =20 I witnessed the train running
one
> time and the 3 coaches were = full.    Problem was:  they charged only = a
buck
>=20 per person and there was a bloated administrative payroll.  (Then=20 some
bozo
> fired the engine up wrong and she is out of = commission for=20 lack of at
least
> $100,000.)
>
> Since I got = involved with=20 the Museum, I started the merit badge program.
> For one class a = couple of=20 years ago we (me and 5 other volunteers) taught
96
> = scouts.  They=20 and their adult supervisors brought in over $700 to = the
Museum
> in one=20 day, which was more than the Museum took in in gate receipts = for
the
>=20 entire month.  We can count on a couple of thousand from the = classes=20 each
> year.  Not much but better than nothing and sometimes = we=20 recruit members
or
> volunteers.
>
> We have had = several=20 mid summer special events that have brought in between
> $10,000 = and=20 $30,000.
>
> The Galveston museum and, I suspect, the = Altoona museum=20 cannot survive on
> gate receipts alone.   The folks at = the=20 Altoona Museum need to (IMHO,
based
> on what I have=20 observed):
>
> a)  pare the paid staff and recruit=20 volunteers
> b)  recruit a board with business sense and = start making=20 hard decisions
> about cash flow (another of the Galveston = museum's=20 problems was that
> everyone with any political connections who = liked=20 trains got on the board
> and the result was chaos).
> = c) =20 start small programs that will bring in cash to supplement the = gate
>=20 receipts
> d)  annual or semi annual special events that will = really=20 supplement gate
> receipts.
> e)  make something = move. =20 But if they do, make sure the operators know
what
> they are=20 doing.
>
> Don Harper
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C21163.4DEB5CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:46:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona --part1_62.20f57e9d.2a37bb90_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town. I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town. I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town. I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection. The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania. My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton. I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week. Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton. DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western. What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. AKA Mouldymay --part1_62.20f57e9d.2a37bb90_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town.  I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town.

I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town.  I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection.  The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania.

My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton.  I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week.  Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton.

DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western.

What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him.


Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
AKA Mouldymay

 --part1_62.20f57e9d.2a37bb90_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:45:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2116F.D4317BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The PRR went to Wilkes Barre. Also, don't forget the electric Laurel = Line. Jeff Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mouldymay@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned = that Scranton was no railroad town. I wrote because any town with 10 or = 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad = town. I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and = have no allegiance to either town. I agree that Steamtown was a = political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a = Canadian Steam Collection. The only good thing about the National RR = museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania. My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised = in Scranton. I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one = Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was = buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week. Looking at my old 1950's = RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton. DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, = Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western. What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find = out, at least from him. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. AKA Mouldymay ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2116F.D4317BD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The PRR went to Wilkes Barre.  = Also, don't=20 forget the electric Laurel Line.
 
Jeff Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mouldymay@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 = 4:46=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs=20 Altoona

I started = the Altoona=20 Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no = railroad=20 town.  I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads = should not=20 be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town.

I am a=20 Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no = allegiance=20 to either town.  I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and = wondered=20 why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam = Collection. =20 The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located = in=20 Pennsylvania.

My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who = was born=20 and raised in Scranton.  I cannot verify his count, as he had = chest pains=20 one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he = was buried=20 in Scranton on Friday of the same week.  Looking at my old 1950's = RR map=20 book I find the following Trunk lines serving = Scranton.

DL&W,=20 Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, = Pennsylvania,=20 NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western.

What the two = additional roads=20 counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from=20 him.


Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
AKA=20 Mouldymay

 ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2116F.D4317BD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:53:07 -0400 Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Thanks in advance Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:14:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_90.272d181c.2a37fa5e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > > > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > Dave > Dave, If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't been standing on the deck long enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-) For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! ! Jon S. --part1_90.272d181c.2a37fa5e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:





     If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area,
you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice
bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat!  The Inn is right at
the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air
conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids.
      The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the
tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch
PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60
X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe.

Dave


Dave,
If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't  been standing on the deck long enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-)
For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! !

Jon S. --part1_90.272d181c.2a37fa5e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Jon, O.K. Maybe your right on the bar part. The Station Inn is nice to. Was there about 3 years ago. This was my first time at the Tunnel Inn. They both get high marks. We'll meet up in Altoona one day, have a few drinks,and we'll both watch MAIL-9 go by! :-) Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:00:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_14f.f2d06c6.2a380542_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:55:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > O.K. Maybe your right on the bar part. The Station Inn is nice to. > Was there about 3 years ago. This was my first time at the Tunnel Inn. > They both get high marks. > We'll meet up in Altoona one day, have a few drinks,and we'll both > watch > MAIL-9 go by! :-) > > Dave > Hey Dave- I truely look forward to it. Save me a space at the bar AND at trackside ! ! ! :-) Jon --part1_14f.f2d06c6.2a380542_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:55:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:



    O.K.   Maybe your right on the bar part. The Station Inn is nice to.
Was there about 3 years ago. This was my first time at the Tunnel Inn.
They both get high marks.
     We'll meet up in Altoona one day, have a few drinks,and we'll both
watch
MAIL-9 go by! :-)

Dave


Hey Dave-
I truely look forward to it.  Save me a space at the bar AND at trackside ! ! ! :-)

Jon --part1_14f.f2d06c6.2a380542_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:19:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? As in "Operation Market Garden" isn't the simple answer that ALTOONA is just one museum to far - not only that - they divided their forces and tryed to operate 2 or 3 sites when, perhaps they should have concentrated their activities at The Curve" and not gotten involved with all the rotting equipment downtown? I haven't been there in some time. but DOWNSIZING is a word that comes to mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:29:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > Dave if only,,, A practical matter: how was it possible to run steamers in any but the shortest of tunnels? The smoke must have been enough to asphyixiate crew members? today's diesel fumes can't be real healthy either.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:11:27 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2118C.8CECBEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I don't think the LV, PRR, or NYS&W (actually WB&E) served Scranton proper but rather nearby Wilkes-Barre. And you list contains 8 RRs leaving 3 unaccounted for. Perhaps he included the Lehigh Valley Traction Company? His count may have included some older predescessor roads. For example the CNJ was known as the PRRofPA for a while and the Lehigh & Susquehanna before that. Or successor roads, such as Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central, ConRail, Canadian Pacific, etc. In any case, Scranton was most definately a RR town, seeing not only the number of RRs serving the coal mines there, but also the DL&Ws major shop complex which for a while built steam locos much like the PRR in Altoona, though on a lower order of magnitude (as would be expected for a road the size of the DL&W compared to the PRR). Bill -----Original Message----- From: Mouldymay@aol.com [mailto:Mouldymay@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:46 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town. I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town. I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town. I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection. The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania. My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton. I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week. Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton. DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western. What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. AKA Mouldymay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2118C.8CECBEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I don't think the LV,  PRR, or NYS&W (actually WB&E) served Scranton proper but rather nearby Wilkes-Barre.  And you list contains 8 RRs leaving 3 unaccounted for.  Perhaps he included the Lehigh Valley Traction Company?  His count may have included some older predescessor roads.  For example the CNJ was known as the PRRofPA for a while and the Lehigh & Susquehanna before that. Or successor roads, such as Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central, ConRail, Canadian Pacific, etc.
 
In any case, Scranton was most definately a RR town, seeing not only the number of RRs serving the coal mines there, but also the DL&Ws major shop complex which for a while built steam locos much like the PRR in Altoona, though on a lower order of magnitude (as would be expected for a road the size of the DL&W compared to the PRR).
 
Bill
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mouldymay@aol.com [mailto:Mouldymay@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:46 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona

I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town.  I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town.

I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town.  I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection.  The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania.

My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton.  I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week.  Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton.

DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western.

What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him.


Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
AKA Mouldymay

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2118C.8CECBEA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:09:39 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? --- sjlash wrote: > Bob, It's no wonder the PRR was interested in these > water companies. From > what I've read and heard reference to, the older > steam locos ate twice as > much water as coal,oil or wood. Having more time than things to do in it, I dug out some sources. "Locomotive Boilers" International Textbook Company, Scranton copyright 1898, 1899, 1900 pg 43 says "In locomotive boilers, 1 pound of coal evaporates 6 to 9 pounds of water, according to the quality of coal, etc." Since 1 gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds ("A pint's a pound the world around"), 1 lb coal will evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. "The Steam Locomotive in America" Alfred W. Bruce copyright 1952 pg 141 mentions a test of a "large 484 type" and says 110,000 lb of water were evaporated by 18,000 lb of coal. That's 6.11 lb water/lb coal. pg 143 talks about the Cole Ratios used in locomotive design and says they assume 6.75 lb water/lb coal. Online at http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig18.gif there is a chart showing coal vs. water consumption for tests of the Baldwin 60000 (the one in the Franklin Institute) at the Altoona test plant. Grabbing a couple pairs of numbers from there: 70000 lb water/11000 lb coal = 6.36 water/coal 40000 lb water/5000 lb coal = 8 water/coal So it appears that if you took off for a trip in your steam locomotive, intending to burn 10 tons of coal, you'd better figure on having 15000 to 20000 gallons of water on hand. Another view: A typical 1917 hopper car held 50 tons of coal. If burning all that in a steam locomotive, be prepared to supply 75000 to 100000 gallons of water. Westmoreland County folk may be interested in the following from the Baldwin 60000 report: "All of the tests were made with run-of-mine bituminous coal from the Keystone Coal and Coke Company's Crows Nest Mine at Hempfield, Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania. This coal is used at the test plant as standard freight locomotive coal." ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:20:33 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? --- robert netzlof wrote: > 1 lb coal will evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. and he should have said ".75 to 1.125". "I hate it when I'm the 'user' in 'user error'" ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Greetings to the List, I usually do not make a habit of responding to all the criticizm that I hear lobbed at out Museum but tonight I am going to make an exception. I want to set the record straight on several issues and address some that have been brought up. First of all Mr Hopson and his travelling partner were correct in several of their observations. Yes 5 people lost their jobs at the museum in an effort to cut back on expenses to keep the doors open. We considered these people part of the museum family and it hurt us to see them go but I will not appologize for this action as it had to be done. Secondly the gift shops at the Master Mechanics building and the Curve are horribly understocked. Well if you have read the paper we owe alot of money to our vendors who supply us with merchandise. They have all been very patient and helpful to us as we have promised to pay all back bills and some are allowing us to order more things in small quantities. We have restructured our finances so that gift shop money will only go to pay gift shop bills at this time. In the future "profits" will go into the big pot. We know that looks bad but we are working on it. Mr Hopson quipped that the "Quarter Roundhouse projet is probably on hold. Nothing is farther from the truth and such off the cuff uninformed statements do nothing but harm us. The Quarter Roundhouse has its own funding pool seperate from the general operating fund. We have the money in hand to complete the first phase of the Project which is not much more than you see in the yard now. Basically just a roof and Track. We have been Granted the money to complete Phase 2 which will complete the first bay and put in the 100 foot turntable. We have located one. This money is coming throught the Federal TEA-21 program and this money will not be in hand for awhile. We are doing everything we can to expedite that process and we are getting great support from PenDot whom the money comes to us through on this matter. In case you guys didnt know it , You cant cash those great big checks that they present to you when they announce the grants. The K4 project is alive and well. It too has its own funding pool. I have made several trips to Steamtown keeping up with the project. I have been involved in getting tools and supplies donated to the project and have worked closely with a local tool supplier to give us a big discount on anything we need. The project has a great supervisor in Barry Claar, he is a very knowledgeble man a suberb machinist and has a working knowledge of Steam. Mr Bill Fredrickson is our lead mechanic and is working full time on the project. I dont think we could get a better guy to do this for us. He and Barry have really turned this project around and got it rolling again. I dont have a finish date yet. There have been issues that have came up that have set us back several times. We have identified all the problems and are correcting them and moving forward. Be patient , this is going to be done correctly so we dont have to go back and do things over again. She will be worth the wait. Of course the K4 will run in excursion service. We have several options and are exploring them all. It probably wont run in just one place. The Trees at the Curve. Well they will be cut shortly. You people have no idea how many times we were ready to go to bid on this project and had to start back at square one because of Hoops that we had to jump through. The good old Indiana Bat even made an appearance and let to putting it on hold for a time. I spoke personally to the gentleman who owns the company that will be doing the work and it will start soon. waiting on one last permit or clearance from someone. And by the way we are giving him the wood and there is not that much millable lumber there . It is not that much of a no brainer Mr Britton Thomas the Tank Engine has been suggested as a savior. Well guess what. He is unavailable for about 2 years. All booked up . We have been told Altoona is the wrong place. Well guess what. It all happened in Altoona!!!!! The Curve is near .... you guessed it Altoona. We cant move that stuff and we cant move the museum. Enough said on that. But dont think that has not been brought to our attention before I hear alot of comments some helpful and informed and some not. But the thing I find most interesting is the I have Never seen any of you guys who seem to have all the answers at a single Board meeting. I have only missed one in the 5 years I have been involved with the museum. I have seen you trackside snapping photos of the E8's as they rumbled through the Brickyard and Past Alto . But did you guys but a railfest ticket or ride the train ? Some did and alot did not. I really dont appreciate comments like. " they obviously didn't know what they were doing" Well we may not have made every decision perfectly but We were here and involved in something and giving of our time and effort and money to make something wonderful happen. I dont reply to this list much because I am busy at night communicating with my comrads who are trying like hell to save this place. We are not sitting back pontificating on what other people should be doing , we are figuring out what we can do and then we are doing it. I have gone on long enough. I want all of you to know that I firmly believe that the majority of people want to see us succeed and that people are very curious about things like the curve and the K4 and mostly just want to know what is going on. What we need is allof you to help us out and support us. If you are going to slam us for what we are doing but dont want to help in any way then keep your comments to yourselves. Come to the place. Dave Hopson did and he brought a friend , I thank him with all sincerity. More of you need to come and buy a ticket and bring a friend. We have been getting tremendous support from our local business leaders and community and from our elected officials. Where we lack support the most is among the railfan community. Maybe we dont cater to you enough. We are working on that. Thank you for you time and indulgence in reading this. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:22:40 -0400 The built date on the decals Railworks provided on the earlier run of the cars is 4/53... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 6:53 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Thanks in advance Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Charles, There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels. They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until the lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:35:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? On the lines west mainline with regular tenders: (prior to long distance tenders) water about every 50 miles Coal about every 100 miles Regards, Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:43:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem From: "Douglas Nelson" Andy Mulhollen, thank you for your reply. A dose of reality was sorely needed in this unfortunate thread. This list is not the place for such uninformed gossip, complaining, and second guessing. Most of it is from people talking out their @#$%&s. Spreading these negative thoughts does only harm. I have spent alot of time in the region as I am lucky to have family there. Altoona and Johnstown are wonderful places that have seen an incredible growth of railroad and industrial tourism attractions that did not exist more that a few years ago. Much of the development was from Federal programs that provide for capital projects but not for operation. The transition to local operation is not always an easy one, but I am confident that they will work it out and be stronger in the future. If you have these negative thoughts, please express them in the privacy of your bathroom, preferably with the door closed. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Dr Mulhollen and List, Though people may have said things that you don't like to hear, I'm pretty sure most of us would help the RR Museum in any way we can. I've been roaming the rails of Altoona since the 1970s. When Altoona was just a railroad town. A Mecca for PRR fans. Some on this list were there during the steam era. Some take it personal when something is wrong on PRR town. You're right. I don't know the business end of the RR Museum or the Horseshoe Curve. But if you say we can come to a BoD meeting,I'd be there in a heartbeat. I hope things work out for the best. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:45:50 -0400 charles- believe it or not, the smell of fumes was not bad. isnt that a part of railfanning anyway. A day of railfanning would not be the same if you saw a diesel working its way up the mountain, but didnt hear or smell it. Jon S- heard the station inn lacks AC. Sorry, you can have that hotbox. Tunnel Inn is a bargain for the money. Besides, their is nothing like watching head end engines roll by the crest of the Allegheny's 2200 feet above sea level crawling at 3-4mph and slowly pick up speed followed by pushers with whining dynamic braking at 12mph. Not to mention 1 year old, very clean, and in a historic building. Greg Vlassopoulos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > > zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > > > Dave > > if only,,, > > A practical matter: how was it possible to run steamers in any but the > shortest of tunnels? The smoke must have been enough to asphyixiate crew > members? > > today's diesel fumes can't be real healthy either.. > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 05:48:24 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary flat Sam and list, I don't know where Railworks got their date from. My Builders Photo listing has a built date of 4-52 and photo date of 5-52. I have approximately 30 photos of it under construction. It is very interesting how the depressed center body was fabricated. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:03:29 -0400 Congratulations and good luck. As somewhat of a local, I live 70 miles away, I bring as many friends and visitors as I can to Altoona & the Curve. Most are not railfans and are impressed with this central Pennsylvania town and her museums. I have even took my high school band to march in the Miss Pennsylvania Pageant parade years ago and you should have seen the looks of joy when the people on the sidewalks saw my PRR belt buckle. I was lucky enough to ride behind the K-4 when she was first restored and look forward to many years of enjoyment. With retirement only a few years away, I look forward to some volunteer work there in addition to my duties at the Pennsylvanai Trolley Museum. Mr. Mulhollen is right, be part of the solution in saving our museums, do not sit and be an armchair quarterback. DF Cramer Instructor/Supervisor/Author--Pennysylvania Trolley Museum >From: andy mulhollen >To: prr talk >Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) > >Dr Andy Mulhollen >Secretary >Executive Committee >Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:09:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem From: Jerry Britton On 6/11/02 11:21 PM, andy mulhollen at (prrdoc@yahoo.com) wrote: While I am pleased that someone directly involved in the museum responded... > Dr Andy Mulhollen > Secretary > Executive Committee > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum I was taken aback by the unprofessionalism, poor grammar, and tone of his response. > But the thing I find most interesting > is the I have Never seen any of you guys who seem to > have all the answers at a single Board meeting. I don't recall being invited! When are they? Since they apparently are open to the public, please provide dates via the PRR-talk list. Since you've brought the openness of these meetings to light, please allow this list to be your FREE carrier of news to over 600 PRR fans. See, we are trying to help! > I have seen you trackside > snapping photos of the E8's as they rumbled through > the Brickyard and Past Alto . But did you guys but a > railfest ticket or ride the train ? Yes, every year for four years now. So please turn your "tone" off! I also visit with my son and daughter in the spring as well, so we actually visit twice a year. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:13:32 -0400 Boy, has the heat ever gotten to him! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:16:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C211E9.6A3F9840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, not just two tracks of = three and has its own bar. I forget whether it was air conditioned - = I've only been there in cooler weather. On the other hand, the view = from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not locally! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JONS6755@aol.com=20 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona = area, you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really = nice bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right = at the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may = catch PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. Dave Dave, If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't been standing on the deck long = enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-) For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the = Tunnel Inn! ! ! Jon S. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C211E9.6A3F9840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, = not just two=20 tracks of three and has its own bar.  I forget whether it was air=20 conditioned - I've only been there in cooler weather.  On the other = hand,=20 the view from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not=20 locally!
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JONS6755@aol.com=20
To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 = 9:14=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel=20 Inn/Gallitzin Pa.

In a message dated 6/11/02 = 5:02:24 PM=20 Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 writes:





     If you're looking = for a=20 great place to stay in the Altoona area,
you must check out the = Tunnel=20 Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice
bed & breakfast inn. = And the=20 view can't be beat!  The Inn is right at
the Gallitzin = Portals at=20 the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air
conditioning in every = room. A=20 must if you take the wife and = kids.
      The=20 deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting = the
tunnels. I was=20 told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch
PRR's = MAIL-9=20 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60
X29s,R50s, = and a P70=20 rider coach. Maybe.

Dave


Dave,
If = you catch=20 the Mail-9 you haven't  been standing on the deck long enough... = you've=20 been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-)
For my money, and IMHO, = I'll take=20 The Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! !

Jon S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C211E9.6A3F9840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:20:26 -0400 I think the Altoona Museum is not only one too far but maybe one too many (in addition to not being near an interstate). There's Steamtown, Strasburg, RR Museum of PA, EBT, and a host of others in that part of the country. If downsizing is the answer, and it might be, let's be really careful we don't sacrifice the superb qualities of the Altoona museum. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? > As in "Operation Market Garden" isn't the simple answer that ALTOONA is just > one museum to far - not only that - they divided their forces and tryed to > operate 2 or 3 sites when, perhaps they should have concentrated their > activities at The Curve" and not gotten involved with all the rotting > equipment downtown? > > I haven't been there in some time. but DOWNSIZING is a word that comes to > mind. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:24:51 -0400 Seems to me most steam engines needed to take water about once per division, which was about 100 miles during the heyday of steam. ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "sjlash" ; Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:09 PM Subject: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? > --- sjlash wrote: > > Bob, It's no wonder the PRR was interested in these > > water companies. From > > what I've read and heard reference to, the older > > steam locos ate twice as > > much water as coal,oil or wood. > > Having more time than things to do in it, I dug out > some sources. > > "Locomotive Boilers" > International Textbook Company, Scranton > copyright 1898, 1899, 1900 > > pg 43 says "In locomotive boilers, 1 pound of coal > evaporates 6 to 9 pounds of water, according to the > quality of coal, etc." > > Since 1 gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds ("A > pint's a pound the world around"), 1 lb coal will > evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. > > "The Steam Locomotive in America" > Alfred W. Bruce > copyright 1952 > > pg 141 mentions a test of a "large 484 type" and says > 110,000 lb of water were evaporated by 18,000 lb of > coal. That's 6.11 lb water/lb coal. > > pg 143 talks about the Cole Ratios used in locomotive > design and says they assume 6.75 lb water/lb coal. > > Online at > http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig18.gif > there is a chart showing coal vs. water consumption > for tests of the Baldwin 60000 (the one in the > Franklin Institute) at the Altoona test plant. > Grabbing a couple pairs of numbers from there: > 70000 lb water/11000 lb coal = 6.36 water/coal > 40000 lb water/5000 lb coal = 8 water/coal > > So it appears that if you took off for a trip in your > steam locomotive, intending to burn 10 tons of coal, > you'd better figure on having 15000 to 20000 gallons > of water on hand. > > Another view: A typical 1917 hopper car held 50 tons > of coal. If burning all that in a steam locomotive, be > prepared to supply 75000 to 100000 gallons of water. > > Westmoreland County folk may be interested in the > following from the Baldwin 60000 report: > > "All of the tests were made with run-of-mine > bituminous coal from the Keystone Coal and Coke > Company's Crows Nest Mine at Hempfield, Westmoreland > County, Pennsylvania. This coal is used at the test > plant as standard freight locomotive coal." > > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Hello William, I stayed at the Station Inn during the summer months. It wasn't that bad. We had a room in east corner of the Inn. Windows on both sides of the room. The bar could be trouble for me. Not only will I see MAIL-9, I may see a M1 pulling a string of new GG1s east to Harrisburg. :-) Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:36:30 -0400 Wow! Thank you Andy! Nothing like publishing the truth to stop rumors in their tracks. I think communication is a major issue (and not easy to solve) in all these matters involving museums, historical preservation, and tourism. Please let us know how we can help, in addition to the obvious ("Send money; Come visit and spend money.") Respectfully (and appreciatively), Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "andy mulhollen" To: "prr talk" Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:21 PM Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem > Greetings to the List, > I usually do not make a habit of responding to > all the criticizm that I hear lobbed at out Museum but > tonight I am going to make an exception. > I want to set the record straight on several > issues and address some that have been brought up. > First of all Mr Hopson and his travelling partner > were correct in several of their observations. Yes 5 > people lost their jobs at the museum in an effort to > cut back on expenses to keep the doors open. We > considered these people part of the museum family and > it hurt us to see them go but I will not appologize > for this action as it had to be done. Secondly the > gift shops at the Master Mechanics building and the > Curve are horribly understocked. Well if you have > read the paper we owe alot of money to our vendors who > supply us with merchandise. They have all been very > patient and helpful to us as we have promised to pay > all back bills and some are allowing us to order more > things in small quantities. We have restructured our > finances so that gift shop money will only go to pay > gift shop bills at this time. In the future "profits" > will go into the big pot. We know that looks bad but > we are working on it. > Mr Hopson quipped that the "Quarter Roundhouse > projet is probably on hold. Nothing is farther from > the truth and such off the cuff uninformed statements > do nothing but harm us. The Quarter Roundhouse has > its own funding pool seperate from the general > operating fund. We have the money in hand to complete > the first phase of the Project which is not much more > than you see in the yard now. Basically just a roof > and Track. We have been Granted the money to complete > Phase 2 which will complete the first bay and put in > the 100 foot turntable. We have located one. This > money is coming throught the Federal TEA-21 program > and this money will not be in hand for awhile. We are > doing everything we can to expedite that process and > we are getting great support from PenDot whom the > money comes to us through on this matter. In case you > guys didnt know it , You cant cash those great big > checks that they present to you when they announce the > grants. > The K4 project is alive and well. It too has its > own funding pool. I have made several trips to > Steamtown keeping up with the project. I have been > involved in getting tools and supplies donated to the > project and have worked closely with a local tool > supplier to give us a big discount on anything we > need. The project has a great supervisor in Barry > Claar, he is a very knowledgeble man a suberb > machinist and has a working knowledge of Steam. Mr > Bill Fredrickson is our lead mechanic and is working > full time on the project. I dont think we could get a > better guy to do this for us. He and Barry have > really turned this project around and got it rolling > again. I dont have a finish date yet. There have > been issues that have came up that have set us back > several times. We have identified all the problems > and are correcting them and moving forward. Be > patient , this is going to be done correctly so we > dont have to go back and do things over again. She > will be worth the wait. > Of course the K4 will run in excursion service. > We have several options and are exploring them all. > It probably wont run in just one place. > The Trees at the Curve. Well they will be cut > shortly. You people have no idea how many times we > were ready to go to bid on this project and had to > start back at square one because of Hoops that we had > to jump through. The good old Indiana Bat even made > an appearance and let to putting it on hold for a > time. I spoke personally to the gentleman who owns the > company that will be doing the work and it will start > soon. waiting on one last permit or clearance from > someone. And by the way we are giving him the wood > and there is not that much millable lumber there . It > is not that much of a no brainer Mr Britton > Thomas the Tank Engine has been suggested as a > savior. Well guess what. He is unavailable for > about 2 years. All booked up . > We have been told Altoona is the wrong place. > Well guess what. It all happened in Altoona!!!!! The > Curve is near .... you guessed it Altoona. We cant > move that stuff and we cant move the museum. Enough > said on that. But dont think that has not been brought > to our attention before > I hear alot of comments some helpful and informed > and some not. But the thing I find most interesting > is the I have Never seen any of you guys who seem to > have all the answers at a single Board meeting. I > have only missed one in the 5 years I have been > involved with the museum. I have seen you trackside > snapping photos of the E8's as they rumbled through > the Brickyard and Past Alto . But did you guys but a > railfest ticket or ride the train ? Some did and alot > did not. I really dont appreciate comments like. " > they obviously didn't know what they were doing" Well > we may not have made every decision perfectly but We > were here and involved in something and giving of our > time and effort and money to make something wonderful > happen. I dont reply to this list much because I am > busy at night communicating with my comrads who are > trying like hell to save this place. We are not > sitting back pontificating on what other people should > be doing , we are figuring out what we can do and then > we are doing it. > I have gone on long enough. I want all of you to > know that I firmly believe that the majority of people > want to see us succeed and that people are very > curious about things like the curve and the K4 and > mostly just want to know what is going on. What we > need is allof you to help us out and support us. If > you are going to slam us for what we are doing but > dont want to help in any way then keep your comments > to yourselves. Come to the place. Dave Hopson did and > he brought a friend , I thank him with all sincerity. > More of you need to come and buy a ticket and bring a > friend. We have been getting tremendous support from > our local business leaders and community and from our > elected officials. Where we lack support the most is > among the railfan community. Maybe we dont cater to > you enough. We are working on that. > Thank you for you time and indulgence in reading > this. > Dr Andy Mulhollen > Secretary > Executive Committee > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:45:18 -0400 At the risk of "foaming at the mouth" this morning in response to an amazing number of posts in the last few days, it always seemed to me that the blowers should be on the uphill end of tunnels to blow the smoke out toward the rear of the train, instead of blowing it along in the same direction. Sort of like counterflow heat exchange - put the effort where it's needed most. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Charles Ring" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > Charles, > > There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels. > They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam > locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the > amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until the > lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. > The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east > portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. > Hope this helps. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:55:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 8:45 AM, William Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > At the risk of "foaming at the mouth" this morning in response to an amazing > number of posts in the last few days, it always seemed to me that the > blowers should be on the uphill end of tunnels to blow the smoke out toward > the rear of the train, instead of blowing it along in the same direction. > Sort of like counterflow heat exchange - put the effort where it's needed > most. > While there may be a certain amount of logic to that... Consider when you stand close to the RoW and a freight runs by. It "pushes" a wall of air ahead of it and the ensuing "wave" of air follows the direction of the train. Granted a train in Tunnel Hill is not going fast, but you are talking about pushing the air against the direction of its normal flow. Also, blowing the smoke back through the tunnel would likely have some effect on passenger cars as they are not totally sealed. My two cent hypothesis! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:53:29 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C211EE.9F9C3B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable charles- furthermore- the blowers would push smoke and air through the tunnels at = a rate of 11mph so the locomotives could not exceed 11mph. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. Audio-Visual Solutions, Inc. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "Charles Ring" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. >=20 > Charles, >=20 > There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin = Tunnels. > They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam > locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the > amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until = the > lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. > The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east > portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. > Hope this helps. >=20 > Dave >=20 >=20 > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C211EE.9F9C3B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charles-
 
furthermore- the blowers would push smoke and air = through the=20 tunnels at a rate of 11mph so the locomotives could not exceed=20 11mph.
 
Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr.
Audio-Visual Solutions,=20 Inc.
 
----- Original Message -----
To: "Charles Ring" <charlesr@infonline.net>; = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin=20 Pa.

>
> =    =20 Charles,
>
>       There were = "blowers" on=20 the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels.
> They blew the smoke = out in=20 front of the trains. Most times, the steam
> locomotives leading = the=20 trains would cut the throttles back to cut the
> amount of smoke. = The rear=20 end helpers push then train through until the
> lead engines clear = the=20 west portals then pick up the pace.
> =       The=20 rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east
> = portals and by=20 the time most of the train is over the grade.
> Hope this = helps.
>=20
>  Dave
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C211EE.9F9C3B60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:58:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car --part1_de.286123a7.2a389f5f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes: > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > Thanks in advance > To Sam and others, The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April 1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 --part1_de.286123a7.2a389f5f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes:


Group, Couple of questions concerning this car.  When was it put into
service? How many were built?  I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman
yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it
would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era?

Thanks in advance


To Sam and others,

The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April 1952.  Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92
 --part1_de.286123a7.2a389f5f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:08:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_f5.1d2c78bf.2a38a1e3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 5:58:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > > > Hello William, > > I stayed at the Station Inn during the summer months. It wasn't > that bad. We had a room in east corner of the Inn. Windows on both sides > of the room. > The bar could be trouble for me. Not only will I see MAIL-9, I may > see a M1 pulling a string of new GG1s east to Harrisburg. :-) > > Dave > I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm ! Tom Davis, the Innkeep is a top nocth fellow. Ypu arrive at the Inn with him being the owner... and you leave with him being your new best friend ! ! ! BTW, Dave, if we're going to see M1s... I'm already packing ! ! ! ;-) Jon S --part1_f5.1d2c78bf.2a38a1e3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 5:58:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:





  Hello William,

      I stayed at the Station Inn during the summer months. It wasn't
that bad. We had a room in east corner of the Inn. Windows on both sides
of the room.
     The bar could be trouble for me. Not only will I see MAIL-9, I may
see a M1 pulling a string of new GG1s east to Harrisburg. :-)

    Dave


I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm !  Tom Davis, the Innkeep is a top nocth fellow. Ypu arrive at the Inn with him being the owner... and you leave with him being your new best friend ! ! !
BTW, Dave, if we're going to see M1s... I'm already packing ! ! !  ;-)

Jon S --part1_f5.1d2c78bf.2a38a1e3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:08:14 -0400 When the blowers were placed in use, steam was in use. The smoke stack is in front of the cab, unless PRR planned to get a hold of some SP Cab Forwards. Greg V ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > At the risk of "foaming at the mouth" this morning in response to an amazing > number of posts in the last few days, it always seemed to me that the > blowers should be on the uphill end of tunnels to blow the smoke out toward > the rear of the train, instead of blowing it along in the same direction. > Sort of like counterflow heat exchange - put the effort where it's needed > most. > > Bill Bigler > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Charles Ring" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > > > > > Charles, > > > > There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels. > > They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam > > locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the > > amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until the > > lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. > > The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east > > portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. > > Hope this helps. > > > > Dave > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C211F0.FBC1CAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg = area factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com=20 To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = svastano@hotmail.com writes: Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put = into=20 service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman = yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if = it=20 would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Thanks in advance To Sam and others, The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April = 1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C211F0.FBC1CAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press = machine for a=20 Pittsburg area factory that was delivered in 5 parts.  Mesta Press=20 Load.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 AHARTPRR137@aol.com
To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 = 8:58=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen = Mary"=20 Flat Car

In a = message dated=20 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com=20 writes:


Group, Couple of questions concerning this car.  = When was=20 it put into
service? How many were built?  I noticed in = Model=20 Railroad Craftsman
yesterday that Railworks is making an HO = version. I=20 was wondering if it
would be appropriate for the late steam = diesel=20 era?

Thanks in advance


To Sam and=20 others,

The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was = built in=20 April 1952.  Only one car was built in this class and it was=20 470245.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS=20 92
 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C211F0.FBC1CAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:13:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C211F1.64291640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Tunnel Inn does lack a bar. BYOB. I didn't want to venture out to = a local Gallitzin Bar being in the middle of the Allegheny Mountains and = I am a city boy from Philadelphia. I didn;t fit in. I don't drive = around with a shotgun in my pick-ups rear window. Greg V ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Bigler=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, not just two tracks of = three and has its own bar. I forget whether it was air conditioned - = I've only been there in cooler weather. On the other hand, the view = from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not locally! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JONS6755@aol.com=20 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona = area, you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really = nice bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right = at the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting = the tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may = catch PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. Dave Dave, If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't been standing on the deck long = enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-) For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the = Tunnel Inn! ! ! Jon S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C211F1.64291640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Tunnel Inn does lack a bar.  BYOB.  I = didn't=20 want to venture out to a local Gallitzin Bar being in the middle of the=20 Allegheny Mountains and I am a city boy from Philadelphia.  I = didn;t fit=20 in.  I don't drive around with a shotgun in my pick-ups rear=20 window.
 
Greg V
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Bigler
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 = 8:16=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel=20 Inn/Gallitzin Pa.

Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, = not just=20 two tracks of three and has its own bar.  I forget whether it was = air=20 conditioned - I've only been there in cooler weather.  On the = other hand,=20 the view from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not=20 locally!
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JONS6755@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 = 9:14=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel = Inn/Gallitzin Pa.

In a message = dated 6/11/02=20 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 writes:





     If you're looking = for a=20 great place to stay in the Altoona area,
you must check out the = Tunnel=20 Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice
bed & breakfast = inn. And=20 the view can't be beat!  The Inn is right at
the Gallitzin = Portals=20 at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air
conditioning in = every room.=20 A must if you take the wife and = kids.
     =20 The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting = the
tunnels.=20 I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may = catch
PRR's=20 MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with = 60
X29s,R50s,=20 and a P70 rider coach.=20 Maybe.

Dave


Dave,
If you catch the = Mail-9=20 you haven't  been standing on the deck long enough... you've = been=20 standing at the bar to long ! ! :-)
For my money, and IMHO, I'll = take The=20 Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! !

Jon S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C211F1.64291640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:42:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? As a person that has not visited the museum as of yet, I cannot comment on the condition or lack of merchandise in the gift shop but I had visited the museum in 1991. It was small at the time but worth seeing. My biggest disappointment is the loss of the steps to Horseshoe Curve. I've only visited the Curve twice in my life but the visits were memorable. Once was before the 1361 was removed from the curve. It broke my heart to see a representative of the Glory Years of the PRR in such a state of disrepair. The engine was filthy, rusty, without a number plate, bell, or whistle. The second time was a few years later after the dismal replaced the K4. Both times I was honored to walk the slabs of stone that made up the "stairway to heavan". From info provided by other friends that have visited the Curve, the stairs are no longer accesable or have been removed. I don't konw if the info is correct but I was also told that there is now a fee to use the only method of access to the Curve, the tram. I readily admit that I am not a financial wizard or even remotely knowledgable about such things but why force people to pay for access to a great historical landmark. It's almost like charging a fee to visit the Gettysburg battlefields. One of my vacation trips for this year was to return to visit the Curve and the Museum. But if I cannot walk to the curve, I probably will only drive below the curve on the road and not ride the tram. Something has been lost to provide an unnecessary expense to people that simply do not want it. Whoever decided to remove the stone horseshoe at the curve should be pummeled with the stones. They represented a symbolic tribute to one of the world's engineering marvels. If they were in the way of the "upgrade", they should have been relocated, not thrown in the trash.Every photo and postcard of the PRR on the Curve showed that horseshoe. Now it's gone. I sincerely hope that the Museum will overcome this problem before we lose something that can never be replaced. BTW, I had the honor of speaking to Don Ball shortly before he passed away about the Steamtown relocation. He had dropped out of the committee for the project when the "politicians" that had no idea about how a railroad attraction should be built started their usual antics. The project lost a great resource for information and history because the politicians wanted to maintain their fifedoms. There was a wealth of American Steam equipment that could have been placed there but instead we now own a great deal of Canadian steam power with very little USA representation. He spoke of ex N&W power as well as a possibility of some Southern equipment. Grey and maroon have never been my favorite colors. Regards, Nick Kulp Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: "William Bigler" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:20:26 -0400 I think the Altoona Museum is not only one too far but maybe one too many (in addition to not being near an interstate). There's Steamtown, Strasburg, RR Museum of PA, EBT, and a host of others in that part of the country. If downsizing is the answer, and it might be, let's be really careful we don't sacrifice the superb qualities of the Altoona museum. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:43:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 9:42 AM, Nick Kulp (caseyj@igateway.com) wrote: > My biggest disappointment is the loss of the steps to Horseshoe Curve. I've > only visited the Curve twice in my life but the visits were memorable. Once > was before the 1361 was removed from the curve. It broke my heart to see a > representative > of the Glory Years of the PRR in such a state of disrepair. The engine was > filthy, > rusty, without a number plate, bell, or whistle. The second time was a few > years > later after the dismal replaced the K4. Both times I was honored to walk the > slabs of stone that made up the "stairway to heavan". From info provided by > other friends that have visited the Curve, the stairs are no longer accesable > or have been removed. I don't konw if the info is correct but I was also told > that there is now a fee to use the only method of access to the Curve, the > tram. > I readily admit that I am not a financial wizard or even remotely knowledgable > about such things but why force people to pay for access to a great historical > landmark. It's almost like charging a fee to visit the Gettysburg > battlefields. > One of my vacation trips for this year was to return to visit the Curve and > the Museum. But if I cannot walk to the curve, I probably will only drive > below > the curve on the road and not ride the tram. Something has been lost to > provide > an unnecessary expense to people that simply do not want it. > The steps were replaced with concrete steps (105 if I recall; my kids counted at one point). As concrete goes, they are attractive as they meander up the grade. The tram is the alternative and I do not think this was a waste -- even aside from weather and accessibility concerns. My family frequently picnics at the curve. Ever try to carry coolers full of stuff up 10 stories? The fee is reasonable if there is a return on investment. The grounds have always appeared well-kept when I have been there. I cannot attest to the vandalism of the Geep, as I have not been there since last fall. The trees do, however, have to go. Get 'em down!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:52:11 -0400 List, I believe it was more often than that for water. The AN railroad, which I worked for for 18 years, is 96 miles long and had water towers 20-30 miles apart. It used Pacifics and Ten-Wheelers as road power with 8,000-10000 gal. tenders. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? > Seems to me most steam engines needed to take water about once per division, > which was about 100 miles during the heyday of steam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robert netzlof" > To: "sjlash" ; > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:09 PM > Subject: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? > > > > --- sjlash wrote: > > > Bob, It's no wonder the PRR was interested in these > > > water companies. From > > > what I've read and heard reference to, the older > > > steam locos ate twice as > > > much water as coal,oil or wood. > > > > Having more time than things to do in it, I dug out > > some sources. > > > > "Locomotive Boilers" > > International Textbook Company, Scranton > > copyright 1898, 1899, 1900 > > > > pg 43 says "In locomotive boilers, 1 pound of coal > > evaporates 6 to 9 pounds of water, according to the > > quality of coal, etc." > > > > Since 1 gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds ("A > > pint's a pound the world around"), 1 lb coal will > > evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. > > > > "The Steam Locomotive in America" > > Alfred W. Bruce > > copyright 1952 > > > > pg 141 mentions a test of a "large 484 type" and says > > 110,000 lb of water were evaporated by 18,000 lb of > > coal. That's 6.11 lb water/lb coal. > > > > pg 143 talks about the Cole Ratios used in locomotive > > design and says they assume 6.75 lb water/lb coal. > > > > Online at > > http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig18.gif > > there is a chart showing coal vs. water consumption > > for tests of the Baldwin 60000 (the one in the > > Franklin Institute) at the Altoona test plant. > > Grabbing a couple pairs of numbers from there: > > 70000 lb water/11000 lb coal = 6.36 water/coal > > 40000 lb water/5000 lb coal = 8 water/coal > > > > So it appears that if you took off for a trip in your > > steam locomotive, intending to burn 10 tons of coal, > > you'd better figure on having 15000 to 20000 gallons > > of water on hand. > > > > Another view: A typical 1917 hopper car held 50 tons > > of coal. If burning all that in a steam locomotive, be > > prepared to supply 75000 to 100000 gallons of water. > > > > Westmoreland County folk may be interested in the > > following from the Baldwin 60000 report: > > > > "All of the tests were made with run-of-mine > > bituminous coal from the Keystone Coal and Coke > > Company's Crows Nest Mine at Hempfield, Westmoreland > > County, Pennsylvania. This coal is used at the test > > plant as standard freight locomotive coal." > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:55:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: Jerry Britton Another thought on the subject... If the MS60 was once a real car, later refurbished to B60b, etc., and in later years an MS60 referred to 60' of mail storage space that could be met via a B60/B60b, X42, or a pair of X29's, might a BM70m also foot the bill? A BM70m has 60' of mail space. However, it also has windows, thus providing a certain lack of security. The 1954 New York Division Makeup of Trains often requires a "MS60, B60, or R50", so the R50's must have been used for dry storage from time to time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:01:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 9:52 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > I believe it was more often than that for water. The AN railroad, which I > worked for for 18 years, is 96 miles long and had water towers 20-30 miles > apart. It used Pacifics and Ten-Wheelers as road power with 8,000-10000 > gal. tenders. > Obviously the terrain had something to do with it, but I agree, that PRR divisions were too large to stop once per division. Consider the Middle Division. Harrisburg is barely outside the division, in the Philadelphia Division. A passenger train heading west would water at the Hawestone track pans (short of Lewistown) and again at the ___ (Mapleton ?) track pans long before Altoona. And keep in mind that, although a slight grade, the Middle Division was relatively level. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:07:11 -0400 Greg & Group, Mesta Machine was in my home town that's why I am so interested in this car. I also saw a picture in Pennsy Power 3 that had something from some electric company. Looked like a huge generator. Does anybody know where the car was made? Thanks Sam >From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." >To: , , >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 > >I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg area >factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com > To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > > > In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >svastano@hotmail.com writes: > > > > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if >it > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > Thanks in advance > > > > To Sam and others, > > The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April >1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 > Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:16:13 -0400 Probably from Westinghouse. When Alco models made the "Queen Mary" it came with one set of trucks and 2 bodies, a depressed center and a well hole did the PRR switch the bodies or have 2 complete cars? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:07 AM To: gregv@NetReach.Net; AHARTPRR137@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Greg & Group, Mesta Machine was in my home town that's why I am so interested in this car. I also saw a picture in Pennsy Power 3 that had something from some electric company. Looked like a huge generator. Does anybody know where the car was made? Thanks Sam >From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." >To: , , >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 > >I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg area >factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com > To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > > > In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >svastano@hotmail.com writes: > > > > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if >it > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > Thanks in advance > > > > To Sam and others, > > The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April >1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 > Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:21:50 GMT Sam and all, I just found this site that may help. Howdy http://southern.railfan.net/flat/cars/prr/245/prr470245.html > Greg & Group, > > Mesta Machine was in my home town that's why I am so interested in this car. > I also saw a picture in Pennsy Power 3 that had something from some electric > company. Looked like a huge generator. Does anybody know where the car was > made? > > Thanks > > Sam > > > >From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." > >To: , , > >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 > > > >I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg area > >factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com > > To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > > > > > > In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >svastano@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if > >it > > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > To Sam and others, > > > > The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April > >1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. > > > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 > > > > > > > Sam Vastano > McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. > PH 724-368-8040 X243 > Fax 724-368-9677 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:23:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Jerry Britton wrote: > > The steps were replaced with concrete steps (105 if I recall; my kids > counted at one point). As concrete goes, they are attractive as they meander > up the grade. > > The tram is the alternative and I do not think this was a waste -- even > aside from weather and accessibility concerns. My family frequently picnics > at the curve. Ever try to carry coolers full of stuff up 10 stories? > > The fee is reasonable if there is a return on investment. The grounds have > always appeared well-kept when I have been there. I cannot attest to the > vandalism of the Geep, as I have not been there since last fall. > > The trees do, however, have to go. Get 'em down!!! I was there last Friday and used the steps both up and down rather than wait for the "funicular" (a word I had never heard before). the GP-9's main problem that I could see is rust. The trees were the big disappointment. This was my first visit to the Curve (except maybe as a small child) and it took me a while to realize exactly where I was after getting to trackside. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Steam consumption Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:40:47 +0000 Several factors entered into how much water was used. One cubic foot of water equals about 960 cubic feet of steam. How fast you use that steam is the key. If an engine was using full cut off it would consume far more steam then if it was using reduced cut off. Lifting the pops threw steam away. Leaks also wasted steam. As I recall a Q2 could drain its tank in an hour running everything at full capacity. Engineers had tricks to minimize steam usage such as dropping the reverse lever to a near neutral position and reducing the cut off once a train was up to speed. Working upgrade with tonnage is obviously the worst scenario. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:54:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_11a.1239f7bd.2a38baa3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 9:52:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes: > I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC > was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large > fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm ! Jon, I agree. I'm also not the skinniest fellow on the planet, and when I stayed at the Station Inn during July of 1998, there was enough of a mountain breeze (as well as the wonderful aroma of a trio of big blue SD40-2s) coming in through the windows for me to be sleeping under the covers very comfortably. You really can't go wrong by staying there. Sean McDonnell --part1_11a.1239f7bd.2a38baa3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 9:52:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes:


I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm !  

Jon,

I agree. I'm also not the skinniest fellow on the planet, and when I stayed at the Station Inn during July of 1998, there was enough of a mountain breeze (as well as the wonderful aroma of a trio of big blue SD40-2s) coming in through the windows for me to be sleeping under the covers very comfortably. You really can't go wrong by staying there.

Sean McDonnell --part1_11a.1239f7bd.2a38baa3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Another MP54 Question From: "mkwb@excite.com" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:58:10 -0400 (EDT) --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__bc1309f2629121994fcaff297c6747cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone tell me why the MP54 (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt sideframes on one truck and different sideframes on the other truck? What type of truck was the other truck? Mike Bartel ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__bc1309f2629121994fcaff297c6747cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks,

I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone tell me why the MP54 (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt sideframes on one truck and different sideframes on the other truck? What type of truck was the other truck?

Mike Bartel


Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__bc1309f2629121994fcaff297c6747cb-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:06:31 -0400 From: davep Subject: [Fwd: [PRR] Steam consumption] >Several factors entered into how much water was used. >One cubic foot of water equals about 960 cubic feet of >steam. At some particular pressure... Depends on the boiler pressure... Water plug location is not an absolute index as a peddler freight would need water away from terminals... > Engineers had tricks to minimize steam usage such as > dropping the reverse lever to a near neutral position > and reducing the cut off once a train was up to speed. These 'tricks' were explicitly taught in company courses, text books, etc... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Another MP54 Question Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:28:20 +0000 I believe that the MP54's only had one powered truck. the other was a trailer. Therefore the Hyatt's are on the powered truck. ( I think) NB > Hi Folks, > > I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone tell me why the MP54 > (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt sideframes on one truck and > different sideframes on the other truck? What type of truck was the other > truck? > > Mike Bartel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:29:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 In a message dated 6/12/02 9:02:19 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << might a BM70m also foot the bill? A BM70m has 60' of mail space. However, it also has windows, thus providing a certain lack of security. The 1954 New York Division Makeup of Trains often requires a "MS60, B60, or R50", so the R50's must have been used for dry storage from time to time. >> I think someone on the list already pointed out that the BM70m did not have 60' of mail "storage" space, but 60' of mail sorting space. Re the R50, most Railway Express reefers in the country were used for general express or mail storage at one time or another, even more so in later years. As one example, I believe the GN steel reefers were probably used more in mail storage than anything else in their later years, especially on the Fast Mail northwest. Having seen those cars on locals into York in videos, I wonder if that was their usage then. Also re the R50, there was the special usage for milk service as well. Anyone know if they were iced much for that service? Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:31:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another MP54 Question Mike asks, > Hi Folks, I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone >tell me why the MP54 (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt >sideframes on one truck and different sideframes on the other truck? What >type of truck was the other truck? Mike Bartel Mike, I REALLY hope your not basing your production on Railworks . First, you don't identify the version of MP54 in question (original unpowered coach, powered coach...etc) In addition, not all powered MP54s were the same, as a set were built with more power to pull trailers. The truck sidefames (and wheelbase AFIKR) were different between the powered and non powered truck, and truck sideframes changed over the years, with different trucks on each end. I can reccomend several good sources of photographs that may help with this question. The MP54 article in the Keystone a couple issues back is a good place to start, followed by Under Pennsy Wires, and the Pennsy Power series. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:35:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 6/12/02 10:21:20 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Ever try to carry coolers full of stuff up 10 stories? >> I have carried heavy tripods and camera equipment, plus cooler. Good exercise. However, that was when you could go up before the tram opened to view the morning trains. It seems to me that the hours were rather short or inconvenient the last time I was there. I suppose the vandalism accounts for the fact they didn't allow you in to park and walk up early or late. Is that still in effect? Bummer, if it is. Haven't been there in years. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:49:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Sam asks: >Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into >service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman >yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it >would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Chris sez, >Probably from Westinghouse. When Alco models made the "Queen Mary" it came >with one set of trucks and 2 bodies, a depressed center and a well hole did >the PRR switch the bodies or have 2 complete cars? The single FD2 car was built first in April of 1952, using span bolsters with salvaged 8 wheel tender trucks (most likely from scrapped T1s). The FW1 car body was subsequently built in 1953 to use the same span bolsters for a very specific load. Both car bodies were built by the PRR. It is not clear how often the FW2 body was used, and I would LOVE to see photos of it with a load. The FD2 body was used to transport a variety of cargos including machine press parts as well as Westinghouse generators. The car saw service through PC and well into Conrail. The car is preserved. The Railworks model (at least the factory paint on the one I saw) is incorrect in that the trucks were really black, NOT FCC as painted by RW. The RW model comes with BOTH bodies, as did the ALCO, and the undecs come with a decal sheet, which while it may be correct for some "phases", does not allow the car to be painted in all of its different "phases". I would LOVE to know where to find decals for this car! (guess I could try to get a set from RW!) I have one of the ALCO models (for which I paid about as much as the far superior RW model) and I'll tell you it REALLY eats space on a layout! It occupies about 1/3 of a yard siding on the layout I normally operate on , and the overhang is a killer on any kind of curve less than about 30-35" radius. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:13:37 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car >for a very specific load. Both car bodies were built by the PRR. It is >not clear how often the FW2 body was used, ^^^ Sorry, that should reaed FW1! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:22:46 +0000 Wasn't there an interview with the superintndent of the car shop that built it or a Keystone article on the car a couple of years ago? I recall seeing pictures of it in the magazine. N Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:32:43 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Greetings to Jerry, Sean and the list: Remember that this is why so many people traveled via PRR to get to the Mountain House resort at Cresson (roughly 1 mile from where the Station Inn now stands) back in the 19th century. As a place for people to escape the heat and oppressiveness of both Pittsburgh and Philly, it was often advertised with one of its chief attributes being the cool mountain air. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:32:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Another MP54 Question In a message dated 6/12/02 10:38:39 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << I REALLY hope your not basing your production on Railworks >> Or any brass model. Not to paint everyone with the same brush, because they vary in accuracy, but you could fill volumes with the inaccuracies in just PRR models. And that wouldn't even have room for the painting inaccuracies (such as $600 GN Glacier Green Pennsy locos and all those tuscan red freight cars). Or the shortcuts, like putting antennas on a 13F82 to represent a 13P75 behind a K4. Or using H21 ribs on an H25 model. Before I would lecture a resin kit manufacturer (I'm not talking about Sunshine and Westerfield who are in a class by themselves) to go back to original drawings, I guess I would even hedge my bet there. Use the drawings verified with good photos to make sure something like the drawing was ever actually built. Bob (owner of a few quasi-accurate brass models) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:42:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 12:32 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > Remember that this is why so many people traveled via PRR to get to the > Mountain House resort at Cresson (roughly 1 mile from where the Station > Inn now stands) back in the 19th century. As a place for people to > escape the heat and oppressiveness of both Pittsburgh and Philly, it was > often advertised with one of its chief attributes being the cool > mountain air. > While I have never stayed at The Station Inn -- I will, sometime -- I can vouch for the "coolness" of Cresson compared to other locales... Many years ago I went to my first RailFest with a few fellow members of the Northern Central Chapter. We left my place at 5 a.m. so we could be trackside early. The forecast for Altoona was mid-70's and sunny. We made a quick stop at McDonald's in Cresson for coffee, and were trackside at 7:10 a.m. The temperature was in the high 30's and we were all wearing shorts and short sleeves!!! In fact, we saw more than one helper set still bearing ice on the side from overnight! I never thought a morning could last so long! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:09:58 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Greetings to Jerry and the List: Jerry Britton wrote: > > The forecast for Altoona was mid-70's and sunny.> > We ... were trackside at 7:10 a.m. The temperature was in the high 30's and we were all wearing shorts and short sleeves!!! > Also -- and I'm sure Dave Seidel and Andy Mulhollen will be nodding their heads on this one -- because of orographic lifting (a meteorological phenomenon) along the Allegheny Front, the top of the mountain often cooks up its own weather. They and I'm sure many others on the list have had the same experience as me -- either by car or train, departing a clear, sunny Altoona only to arrive in Gallitzin or Cresson minutes later to find snow, sleet, fog, driving rain, or high winds. And year-round, a rule of thumb seems to be that the temp is often at least 10 degrees cooler (and as Jerry reported, sometimes MUCH more) in Cresson/Gallitzin than it is in Altoona. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:21:18 -0400 From: Rick Miskell Subject: [PRR] Queen Mary 's other persona After a little discreet searching of the site Howdy referenced I came up with this: http://southern.railfan.net/flat/cars/prr/248/prr470248.html Don't know if the info is accurate but it's a start and references a Pic in PRR Color Guide Vol 2 Page 95. Rick C. F. "Rick" Miskell Operations Manager University of Pittsburgh Department of Biological Sciences A354 Langley Hall Pittsburgh, PA 15260 412-624-4274 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Good website Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:06:48 +0000 In the discussion about the Queen Mary was a URL to Tom Dashpit's web site. For those of you who haven't been there it is a great resource for all heavy duty cars especially his love for Schnabel cars. There are several pictures and descriptions of nearly every car known including the Westinghouse cars. It was an invaluable source while I was scratchbuilding my version of one of Westighouses cars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Some museum observations Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:23:23 -0400 Jerry and list, If you permit, I would like to make some observations on the current debate over Pennsylvania museums from the point of view of someone who has not been in the general area in 22 years and hasn't been to Horseshoe Curve in 35 years. My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the answer. >From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! Just my nickel's worth (inflation you know).. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:34:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 2:23 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial > Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of > Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the > collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with > the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after > all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the > museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" > history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the > human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the > average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the > answer. The Strasburg museum is part of the Pennsylvania Museum Commission. It is not a "PRR museum", but rather a museum of the railroads of the state of Pennsylvania. PRR is prominent. I'm not sure of the structure of the Altoona museum. Until I hear otherwise, I believe it is an independent museum, locally operated. It is NOT part of the Pennsylvania Museum Commission as Strasburg is, nor is it federal, as Steamtown is. The PRR left its collection to the state of Pennsylvania which, in turn, transferred the collection to its own museum...Strasburg. > > From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with > its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time > for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get > all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a > historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even > went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! > The Strasburg museum is doing a five-star job. The problem is that equipment came in faster than could be managed, given the funding. They have an excellent rolling stock hall. Perhaps the finest I have seen anywhere. Everything inside is in top-notch shape. Outside there has been much more equipment than could be handled. Piece by piece things are getting attention. The outdoor yard has just had the majority of the trackwork replaced. This will facilitate future construction of a full roundhouse around the turntable. Once the trackwork was replaced, the M1 was moved "from the mud" out onto the very front track where it now greats visitors to the site! It's been given a cosmetic coat of paint and is scheduled for cosmetic restoration in three years. There is much more rolling stock on-site than there is inside storage. There is talk of a second rolling stock hall after the roundhouse is done. But the site slopes away from the current rolling stock hall, so a lot of fill would be required. Nevertheless, it is being discussed. To visit Strasburg, then Altoona, you will be ashamed of the prototype collection at Altoona. It is POOR!!! The Altoona museum, however, has a top-notch interpretive museum of the history of the railroad. Peter Barton did a phenomenal job of creating this masterpiece just a few years ago. The Strasburg museum continues to progress in this area, but will keep an emphasis on the proto collection for the foreseeable future. Overall scores... Strasburg A Altoona C Steamtown Haven't been there ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:39:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations From: Jerry Britton Another observation... The state received the PRR collection early in the 1970's, I believe. The site at Strasburg was selected for the railroad museum based on other tourist attractions in the area. I don't know the history of the Altoona site, but I'd be willing to bet that the Altoona museum didn't get that property until later. IF that property had been available to the state at the time, I really think the state museum would be in Altoona. It would really be the best of both worlds...Altoona's interpretive museum and Strasburg's rolling stock collection. Millions have been invested in the facility at Strasburg. Were that not the case, I would be first in line to support the state taking over Altoona and moving the railroad museum there. People that want to see proto collections will travel hours to do so. Altoona currently does not have that draw. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:37:43 -0400 Don't forget, the museum in Strasburg is the RR Museum of PA, and as such has some Reading equipment. Should prob. have Lackawanna Equipment too, but Steamtown was Lackawanna Land (although they have little or no Lackawanna either!) And don't forget that when the PRR locomotives went to Strasburg there was no museum in Altoona, or a very small one. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: [PRR] Some museum observations > Jerry and list, > > If you permit, I would like to make some observations on the current debate > over Pennsylvania museums from the point of view of someone who has not been > in the general area in 22 years and hasn't been to Horseshoe Curve in 35 > years. > > My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial > Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of > Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the > collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with > the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after > all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the > museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" > history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the > human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the > average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the > answer. > > From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with > its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time > for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get > all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a > historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even > went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! > > Just my nickel's worth (inflation you know).. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:49:05 -0400 One problem is that the person who does such an outstanding job building, stocking, and opening museums gets rewarded by a promotion and a move. I believe Peter Barton went from Altoona to Sturbridge Village, Bill Withun went from Steamtown to the Smithsonian Institute in DC where I believe he oversees the railroad or transportation collection. Both their replacements had impossible jobs trying to fill their predecessor's shoes. It's the Peter Principle - people rise to their level of incompetence. Solution: Keep them in place, give them a fancier title, and lots more money. Save millions and greatly improve results in the long term. Just one SPF's opinion. I would give: Steamtown B Strasburg A Altoona B- (the museum is top notch, the collection has problems) Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations > On 6/12/02 2:23 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > > > My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial > > Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of > > Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the > > collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with > > the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after > > all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the > > museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" > > history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the > > human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the > > average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the > > answer. > > The Strasburg museum is part of the Pennsylvania Museum Commission. It is > not a "PRR museum", but rather a museum of the railroads of the state of > Pennsylvania. PRR is prominent. > > I'm not sure of the structure of the Altoona museum. Until I hear otherwise, > I believe it is an independent museum, locally operated. It is NOT part of > the Pennsylvania Museum Commission as Strasburg is, nor is it federal, as > Steamtown is. > > The PRR left its collection to the state of Pennsylvania which, in turn, > transferred the collection to its own museum...Strasburg. > > > > From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with > > its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time > > for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get > > all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a > > historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even > > went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! > > > The Strasburg museum is doing a five-star job. The problem is that equipment > came in faster than could be managed, given the funding. > > They have an excellent rolling stock hall. Perhaps the finest I have seen > anywhere. Everything inside is in top-notch shape. > > Outside there has been much more equipment than could be handled. Piece by > piece things are getting attention. The outdoor yard has just had the > majority of the trackwork replaced. This will facilitate future construction > of a full roundhouse around the turntable. > > Once the trackwork was replaced, the M1 was moved "from the mud" out onto > the very front track where it now greats visitors to the site! It's been > given a cosmetic coat of paint and is scheduled for cosmetic restoration in > three years. > > There is much more rolling stock on-site than there is inside storage. There > is talk of a second rolling stock hall after the roundhouse is done. But the > site slopes away from the current rolling stock hall, so a lot of fill would > be required. Nevertheless, it is being discussed. > > To visit Strasburg, then Altoona, you will be ashamed of the prototype > collection at Altoona. It is POOR!!! > > The Altoona museum, however, has a top-notch interpretive museum of the > history of the railroad. Peter Barton did a phenomenal job of creating this > masterpiece just a few years ago. The Strasburg museum continues to progress > in this area, but will keep an emphasis on the proto collection for the > foreseeable future. > > Overall scores... > Strasburg A > Altoona C > Steamtown Haven't been there > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:51:41 +0000 Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational at some point? I for one would love to see that engine in steam again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:05:47 -0400 Keep in mind many years have been spent making a K-4 (1361) operational again, and who knows when it will be finished. Gotta think the M-1 would be much too big a stretch both in dollars and time. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > in steam again. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MP54 question From: "mkwb@excite.com" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:51:01 -0400 (EDT) --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a42200dfd9f943f0e4fffae2af35fd4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, Well, the responses I got were a big help..sort of. I'm not using the Railworks MP54 models in production of our kits, though they are providing some inspirations. The version I got was a set of 2 identical painted coaches (one powered model, one dummy model). Both have the sideframe differences. In fact, all the Railworks MP54s I looked at had the same sideframe difference. Other MP54 models I have seen have both trucks with Hyatt sideframes. I've heard of MP54s with other trucks. I am aware of MP54s having differences over the large number the PRR had in their fleet, but the reason I'm asking is to try and narrow it down to a single common version or two. I'd like some consensus on this, because I know if I did one thing wrong, you guys would be all over me. Here's your chance to help a manufacturer get it right- the first time! (By the way, please don't compare IHP to Sunshine or Westerfield or any other resin maker because we're not any of them, and we do things differently than any other maker does.) The question is: what PRR MP54 cars had what trucks, for what reasons, and at what times in their careers? Thanks for your help in advance, Mike Bartel IHP http://ihphobby.tripod.com ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a42200dfd9f943f0e4fffae2af35fd4d Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys,

Well, the responses I got were a big help..sort of.

I'm not using the Railworks MP54 models in production of our kits, though they are providing some inspirations. The version I got was a set of 2 identical painted coaches (one powered model, one dummy model). Both have the sideframe differences. In fact, all the Railworks MP54s I looked at had the same sideframe difference. Other MP54 models I have seen have both trucks with Hyatt sideframes. I've heard of MP54s with other trucks. I am aware of MP54s having differences over the large number the PRR had in their fleet, but the reason I'm asking is to try and narrow it down to a single common version or two. I'd like some consensus on this, because I know if I did one thing wrong, you guys would be all over me. Here's your chance to help a manufacturer get it right- the first time! (By the way, please don't compare IHP to Sunshine or Westerfield or any other resin maker because we're not any of them, and we do things differently than any other maker does.)

The question is: what PRR MP54 cars had what trucks, for what reasons, and at what times in their careers?

Thanks for your help in advance,

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

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The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a42200dfd9f943f0e4fffae2af35fd4d-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:49:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 6/12/02 11:48:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes: << I was there last Friday and used the steps both up and down rather than wait for the "funicular" (a word I had never heard before). >> Take it that you've never been to Pittsburgh, then - at one time they had several. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Jerry and list Andy may have made a mistake. I belive the meetings are open to members only. The meeting is in October,at least the one I attended and it was for members only. Speaking of membership. I'm curious how many on this list are members? I'm a life member of the museum. I visit a dozen plus times a year. I always toss a couple of bucks in the bucket and pay my admission. What have you done to support the museum?------Mark L----------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:23:34 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Members of the List, I want to thank you all for the overwhelmingly supportive personal emails and postings to the list. There was only one person that took some personal shots at me for the way I presented my message. When I was writing that post, I had no idea that my Freshman English Professor Dr. Fitzpatrick (aka Jerry Britton) was online to critique me on my grammer and professionalism. I was hoping to be able to post information to the list on a regular basis, but if I am personally attacked and critisized just because people dont like what they read. I wont be doing it long. Personal hacks have no real place on this list. I realize that may of you purchased Railfest and excursion tickets, however many more did not. I was on the train all weekend, I saw the amount of people trackside and I saw the ticket sales numbers and they were not equal by a long shot. Our Board meetings are open to the Public as far as I know it is not restricted ot members. Voting rights at the annual meeting are however reserved for Life Members. Altoona City Counsel meetings are open to the public too. However I have never recieved an invitation to attend one of them. If I am interested enough in what is going on in the city government I have to pick up the phone and call City Hall and ask for the date and time of the next meeting. Thats all that had to be done if anyone had wanted to attend a Museum Board meeting, just call the museum and ask when and where. To say that you could never attend a meeting because you were not invited it not a valid arguement. Just an excuse. Board meetings are usually held the second thursday of each month on the third floor of the Master Mechanics Building at 5:30pm . These meetings have been suspended as the Board now consists of only 4 members and we meet several times a week at different times and locations as there is a tremendous amount of work to be done. The next full Board meeting will be in September after the Annual meeting of members. At that meeting the Life Members will be voting on the new board members. I will be posting more information as regularly as I can. Thanks for the support. PS does anyone know the phone # for HOOKED ON PHONICS. I guess I need it. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:38:30 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona vs Strasburg Members of the List, I agree, our rolling stock has been left go. Thats why we are embarking on the Quarter Roundhouse Project. To house some of our gems like the Loretto and K4 and some other rare cars we have. Yes we do have a few noteworthy pieces rusting in the yard. We hope to be able to restore them when we have the place to do it and the money. You all must remember that the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is a commonwealth institution. Its whole budget save what it makes at the gate is given to it by the Commonwealth of PA. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is wholly owned by its members. It does recieve state and federal funding for special projects. But it recieves very little in the way of General Operating Funds from the Commonwealth. I know of no other freestanding Railroad museum that compares to us. There may be one but I don't know of it. I am sure I will be told in no uncertain terms by this list if I am wrong here. I would like to know if I am wrong. Thanks for listening Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:40:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Weldon wrote: > Whatever, I did not see a post which indicate where the car is preserved. > > Could you tell us?? Well, I hate to even mention it given the discussion going on. (COME ON children, be HAPPY that PA has Strasburg, Scranton AND Altoona...geez, you whiners should be stuck someplace like Alabama, or, um,... Hamburg NY) The car is at the museum in Altoona, AFAIK. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:53:30 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Museum Hi All, I have been skimming the various museum threads. A recent one mentioned that it would be great if the M-1b could be restored to running condition. That would be my #2 choice, with the I-1 being a CLOSE first. I was on the tender deck of the M-1b taking photos and doing research about 7 years ago. There were large rods up on the tender deck back then. I heard a few things from a worker at the Museum. 1. They will not put a piece in the building that they do not own. That is why 4800 is outside, because it is owned by the (Lancaster?) chapter of the NHRS. 2. It is in the Museum charter that once the Museum takes ownership of any piece, it is NOT able to be restored to operating condition, OR ever leave the property. These are a few things I heard. I cannot say for sure if they are completely true. I am reserving my opinion of the Altoona museum for a more personal and private conversation because it would probably not be a popular one. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car That Is correct we have the Queen Mary. Gary Price who was Secretary of the Board before I was had the foresight to ask Conrail to donate this One of a Kind to us several Years ago. She sits in our yard as we speak. She is big and beautiful with those T1 tender trucks under her..... Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum --- Bruce F Smith wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Weldon wrote: > > > Whatever, I did not see a post which indicate > where the car is preserved. > > > > Could you tell us?? > > Well, I hate to even mention it given the discussion > going on. (COME ON > children, be HAPPY that PA has Strasburg, Scranton > AND Altoona...geez, > you whiners should be stuck someplace like Alabama, > or, um,... Hamburg > NY) The car is at the museum in Altoona, AFAIK. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:26:46 -0400 norm- what glass pipe are you smoking. probably the same one the guy is smoking who has been talks about clearing the trees around the curve. why on earth would you need an engine as large and powerful as an M1 for excursion service? it not like the EPA is going to grant your wish and allow it to run in revenue service. or NS will put it in service between altoon and johnstown. gotta love you wishful thinkers. greg v ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > in steam again. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Museum Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:36:04 -0400 Bill Lane Heard you chickened out on a ride to MG tower. You missed it. You should have went when you had the chance. Dave took me there. No police. Nothing. Only thing in site was a classic castle tower guarded by mountains between 2 lines west signal bridges and 6 axle monsters roaring up the mountain. You need to be more adventurous in life. You should change your name to Bill Lame. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Museum > Hi All, > > I have been skimming the various museum threads. A recent one mentioned that > it would be great if the M-1b could be restored to running condition. That > would be my #2 choice, with the I-1 being a CLOSE first. > > I was on the tender deck of the M-1b taking photos and doing research about > 7 years ago. There were large rods up on the tender deck back then. > > I heard a few things from a worker at the Museum. > 1. They will not put a piece in the building that they do not own. That is > why 4800 is outside, because it is owned by the (Lancaster?) chapter of the > NHRS. > 2. It is in the Museum charter that once the Museum takes ownership of any > piece, it is NOT able to be restored to operating condition, OR ever leave > the property. > > These are a few things I heard. I cannot say for sure if they are completely > true. > > I am reserving my opinion of the Altoona museum for a more personal and > private conversation because it would probably not be a popular one. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:14:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem --part1_183.9acb337.2a398421_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr Andy It is obvious from the tone of your response to our forum that you may be taking the criticism personally. If the shoe fits..... This site was established and is still for those of us who are deeply interested in the historical aspect of the PRR. We are not simple minded "railfans" as you imply. There is a tremendous wealth of information available at this site that would do you well to explore. For you to casually refer to us as the uninformed is indeed an uninformed statement demonstrative of your tunnel vison. This site is home to professionals, professional educators, engineers, authors, railroad employees, historians, modelers and the like (Dr, Lawyer and Indian Chief) with a far greater interest in the historical preservation of the Pennsylvania Railroad than you project in your letter. We flesh things out in this forum, that is how new ideas are generated. To suggest that you have figured out all the problems and answers is quite arrogant and smug. If your Board of Directors has indeed been as diligent in the affairs of the museum as you say, it would not be in the shape it is today. Your museum is obviouly in dire need of an unbiased outside opinion. One with the best interests of the museum and the PRR at heart. (Big picture here). Simple business practice dictates that you pay for your merchandise with the profits your previous inventory has generated. The term stock turn applies here. Turning over your merchandise completely within a specified period of time. Any junior Naval Supply Corps Officer knows this. Surely a well informed board of directors would as well. If you had the appropriate personnel in place the instance of insuring a well stocked gift store would have never presented itself. But the issue of an unstocked gift store is only a small indicator of a much larger problem with the management and its spending habits. This is where key, volunteer, corporate executives serving as advisors to the board would make the difference in the operation and survival of the museum. I have visited both the curve and the museum downtown twice with my family and hope to do so again if that option is still available in the future. As you are obviously unaware, the members of this list are scattered far across this country as well as Canada, Australia and England. We are not all within driving range of the museum. Not even for weekend excursions. If I were, I would indeed be there to volunteer and do what I could to protect and support your museum, something I consider to be a vital part of the PRR history. If we all lived within driving distance, you would be financially solvent, simply from our visits and support. Finally, you suggest that if we can not say something positive about your operation then we should remain silent. Well, as an educated man I feel quite certain that you have at some point studied history and the Bill of Rights. Consequently I feel equally as certain that you are keenly aware that thousands upon thousands of men and women have sacrificed their lives so that we would have the right to freedom of speech. For you to suggest otherwise simply because we disagree with your thoughts and management style speaks volumes as to why the museum may be in the shape it is in today. You and your board of directors put the museum in the condition it is in today whether through uninformed decisions or mismanagement. That is not all that important now. That is the easy part, that is over. Set your ego aside. What needs to be done now is incorporate any and all sources of information and suggestion to resolve the problem and insure that it never happens again. By the way, I too very seldom speak up on the internet. Your scathing letter however certainly warrants a reply. Steve Keough --part1_183.9acb337.2a398421_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr Andy
  It is obvious from the tone of your response to our forum that you may be taking the criticism personally.  If the shoe fits.....   This site was established and is still for those of us who are deeply interested in the historical aspect of the PRR.  We are not simple minded "railfans" as you imply.  There is a tremendous wealth of information available at this site that would do you well to explore.  For you to casually refer to us as the uninformed is indeed an uninformed statement demonstrative of your tunnel vison.  This site is home to professionals, professional educators, engineers,  authors, railroad employees, historians, modelers and the like (Dr, Lawyer and Indian Chief)  with a far greater interest in the historical preservation of the Pennsylvania Railroad than you project in your letter.  We flesh things out in this forum, that is how new ideas are generated.  To suggest that you have figured out all the proble   If your Board of Directors has indeed been as diligent in the affairs of the museum as you say, it would not be in the shape it is today.  Your museum is obviouly in dire need of an unbiased outside opinion.  One with the best interests of the museum and the PRR at heart.  (Big picture here).  Simple business practice dictates that you pay for your merchandise with the profits your previous inventory has generated.  The term stock turn applies here.  Turning over your merchandise completely within a specified period of time.  Any junior Naval Supply Corps Officer knows this.  Surely a well informed board of directors would as well.  If you had the appropriate personnel in place the instance of insuring a well stocked gift store would have never presented itself.  But the issue of an unstocked gift store is only a small indicator of a much larger problem with the management and its spending habits.  This is where key, volunte   I have visited both the curve and the museum downtown twice with my family and hope to do so again if that option is still available in the future.  As you are obviously unaware, the members of this list are scattered far across this country as well as Canada, Australia and England.  We are not all within driving range of the museum.  Not even for weekend excursions.  If I were, I would indeed be there to volunteer and do what I could to protect and support your museum, something I consider to be a vital part of the PRR history.  If we all lived within driving distance, you would be financially solvent, simply from our visits and support.
  Finally, you suggest that if we can not say something positive about your operation then we should remain silent.  Well, as an educated man I feel quite certain that you have at some point studied history and the Bill of Rights.  Consequently I feel equally as certain that you are keenly aware that thousands upon thousands of men and women have sacrificed their lives so that we would have the right to freedom of speech.  For you to suggest otherwise simply because we disagree with your thoughts and management style speaks volumes as to why the museum may be in the shape it is in today.  You and your board of directors put the museum in the condition it is in today whether through uninformed decisions or mismanagement. That is not all that important now. That is the easy part, that is over.  Set your ego aside.  What needs to be done now is incorporate any and all sources of information and suggestion to resolve the problem and insure that it never h   By the way, I too very seldom speak up on the internet.  Your scathing letter however certainly warrants a reply.
                                                                                      Steve Keough --part1_183.9acb337.2a398421_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:27:40 -0800 From: smartcommco@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Altoona Fairwell The Horror, When I was a small boy I would go down to Pennsylvania Station in New York City with my box of water colors and paint loving illustrations of the sparkling GG1's and their majestic consists of Tuscan red and gold. One day a man named Bill Strasser invited me up to his office in the station and gave me a stack of Pennsy magazines and a mailing tube of Pennsylvania Calendars. He was cleaning out his office before moving to 1 Penn Center. The mighty terminus was preparing to die. I continued my pilgrimage to the tracks and made the acquaintance of a Harrisburg Engineman named Bill Shipp who suggested I turn my paintings into Safety Posters. I did so and as a result, at the age of 14 I became the youngest employee of the PRR, developing Safety Materials for the New York, Middle and Pittsburgh Regions until the merger. I literally grew up on the PRR and their salary put me through school, while men such as Mr. Strasser, Grif Teller, Mel Jackman and the wonderful people at Al Paul Lefton set me on a highly successful career on Madison Avenue. These men are gone now and as Greg Martin so eloquently put it, so are the insights as to why and how they helped to create the "Standard Railroad of the World". The only thing that remains of any substance is the town of Altoona and the cultural history preserved by the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Mr. Keough suggests we look at the "Big Picture" here. The Big Picture is abundantly clear. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is about to die. The only memorial to the men and women who built the company we all profess to care so much about is in jeopardy of extinction. Our response has been to complain about the access from the Interstate, the fees on the funicular, the lack of merchandise in the gift shop, the grammar of the only Board Member who even cares enough to address these lists, the rust on the GP-9 and on and on. I contacted Mr. Levin and offered my services as a marketing person to the museum. He forwarded my credentials to Dr. Mullhollan. Dr. Mullhollan contacted me last week and asked for my help. I volunteered my services and the services of my firm pro bono, with two caveats. First, that our out of pocket expenses ( postage, duplicating, etc.) be covered and second that we be given the creative freedom to do what had to be done to bring the museum to the attention of those who could save it from a tragic demise. Dr. Mullhollan has yet to respond to our generous offer of assistance. So be it. I believe as many of you do, that the history of the PRR and Altoona are more important than the agendas, short comings, misgivings, short tempers and insensitivities of those charged with its stewardship. As such, whatever those issues may be, they should be overlooked in light of the seriousness of the situation. The fact is the current Board is the only hope we have of maintaining the integrity of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. As such they require all the morale, physical, verbal and financial support we can muster. For my part, first, I'm sending them a check. Second, I am offering the following advise for what it's worth. (which at my current monthly retainer fee is about $35,000) 1. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum has continually overlooked its most important selling point. It is the ONLY Railroad Memorial Museum in America. As such it should be positioned as a living tribute to those who have given their lives in the service of our nation's railroads. Those whose family members have lost their lives on the railroad should have those loved ones memorialized in Altoona, the nation's first "Railroad Town". Those names should be cast in Altoona brick and those bricks should be laid in state on the museum grounds. My grandfather died on the railroad and I would send a $100 donation to the museum to know his name would not be forgotten. I would also make it my business to visit the site of his memorial and make sure my children and their grandchildren did the same and that that Memorial lasted as long as I could support it. I'm sure that tens of thousands of other Americans would do the same. 2. The Pennsylvania Railroad was the birthplace of the modern day corporation. Every business in America owes its existence to the management principals developed by the PRR. This fact has not been celebrated by any museum in America as well as it has been celebrated at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. The University of Pennsylvania's Wharton B-School, The University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie-Mellon should all be enlisted to support the development of a Pennsylvania Railroad Case Study Series based at the the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum with a percentage of the tuition going to support the museum. 3. Corporate America is faced with a diminishing audience for their network television efforts. As a result they are constantly searching for worthwhile endeavors to sponsor. A trip to any search engine and the typing in of the word "Railroad" will bring up more hits than Elvis or Jesus Christ. If railroads are more popular than either of those two gentlemen than a strong case can be made for Corporate Sponsorship of the Museum's restoration projects. Warren Buffet (Coca-Cola) Bill Gates ( Microsoft ) and many other corporate leaders are avid railfans. There's two to start with. 4. General Electric is a major vendor to America's railroads. GE owns NBC. Sponsor produced programming is the wave of the future ( Survivor, American Idol, etc.) General Electric should be approached by the NS PR Department to pitch the idea a weekly network television show to be produced about a Museum Director to takes a job in Altoona to save a dying Railroad Museum. Think it sounds far fetched? So did a lawyer who goes to Stuckyville and buys a bowling alley at the time. If GE baulks, GM should be next in line to pitch it to CBS, Fox and ABC. If successful, such a show would make Altoona a major tourist attraction. 5. Many of you are excellent photographers. Make some prints of your work. Donate them to the museum to sell in the gift shop. Many of you are model Railroaders. Donate a few cars or a locomotive to be sold in the gift shop. Those trainbooks you wife complains about that are gathering dust. Send a couple off to the gift shop. Start thinking of it as a Thrift Shop. Dr. Mullholan, do us all a favor. Go down to Mr. McNitts old office, open his desk drawer. Take out Greg Martin's beautiful Genesis F-Units. Take a picture of them ( or use my Genesis ad) put them on eBay, auction them off to the highest bidder. Ask the bidder to leave them on loan to the museum. Send them to President Bush for display in the White House. Send out a press release about the gift and the plight of the museum. 6. Everybody on this list. Send out ten letters to railfans you know. Ask them to send a $10 dollar donation to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum in honor and memory of the men and women who made the Pennsylvania Railroad what it was. But please, please, please do something besides criticize. Or there will be nothing left to criticize. And a little bit of all of us will die with the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:23:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Triumph Does any one have the email address of David Messer or Charles Roberts, both writers of Triumph, a History of the PRR?: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:41:59 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Other than money, there is no reason we can't build a new one, or a T1 or a J1 or a Q2 ... But that's a pretty good reason. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > in steam again. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:58:42 +0000 I think the M1 is the greatest engine the PRR ever had. It is certainly a better choice than trying to rebuild the I1 rust bucket in New York. I was just curious if there was something major that would preclude it being rebuilt some day. And yes I do realize that money is a problem and stated so in my first line. however if I ever win the lottery and pay for the rebuild myself I have a list of people who won't get cab rides based on their sarcastic remarks. > norm- > > what glass pipe are you smoking. probably the same one the guy is smoking > who has been talks about clearing the trees around the curve. > > why on earth would you need an engine as large and powerful as an M1 for > excursion service? it not like the EPA is going to grant your wish and > allow it to run in revenue service. or NS will put it in service between > altoon and johnstown. > > gotta love you wishful thinkers. > > greg v > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:51 PM > Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 > > > > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > > in steam again. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:23:34 -0500 There has been much discussion lately on this list regarding the plight of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Some criticism, some presentation of the facts, and some positive ideas to help the situation. I am a long time Pennsy fan who remembers the PRR from my youth and although I now live in Texas, I still thirst for more pictures, stories, information, and opportunities to visit the remains of the Pennsy. I have made three trips east in the past several years with the specific goal to visit PRR related sites. Each time I have stopped at Altoona and visited the museum (the first time was before they moved into the new Master Mechanics building) and the curve. I would hate to loose these, or any other, PRR historical sites. I live a long way from PA, as do many, many other Pennsy fans, who as was previously stated live literally all over the world, and it is impossible for us to be there in person for the museum on a regular basis. However, I believe we all share the thirst for PRR information. The Altoona RR Memorial Museum has a tremendous wealth of that information. I would like to suggest that the museum develop some formal way of providing that information, for a fee, to all Pennsy fans. Things that come to mind are: A monthly magazine A series of videos Books based on material in the museum Photographs I am sure that there are many other ways to provide information and receive compensation, a win-win situation in my book. Lastly, I would like to suggest that each of us on the PRR-List send a donation to the museum today. Mine is in the mail. The address for the museum is: Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, 1300 Nineth Street, Altoona, PA 16602. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:40:53 -0400 Andy, Please don't stop posting to and communicating via the list. It is an excellent forum and virtually all of us are interested in what's going on (the real information - not rumors and guesses). As for some people taking personal shots at you, I find that goes along with life. I get all sorts of personal shots taken at me, but I let them roll off like water off a duck's back and keep doing what I believe is right. As I told someone on the list, with respect to English and grammar (probably spelled wrong!), I don't know of too many steam locomotive engineers from the old days who had college degrees, but they sure have a lot of fascinating information and experiences. Hell, I have college degrees, but they're in engineering, not english. My english is as bad as a lot of others! So thanks again, Andy, and keep that information coming Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "andy mulhollen" To: "prr talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > Members of the List, > I want to thank you all for the overwhelmingly > supportive personal emails and postings to the list. > There was only one person that took some personal > shots at me for the way I presented my message. When I > was writing that post, I had no idea that my Freshman > English Professor Dr. Fitzpatrick (aka Jerry Britton) > was online to critique me on my grammer and > professionalism. > I was hoping to be able to post information to > the list on a regular basis, but if I am personally > attacked and critisized just because people dont like > what they read. I wont be doing it long. Personal > hacks have no real place on this list. > I realize that may of you purchased Railfest and > excursion tickets, however many more did not. I was > on the train all weekend, I saw the amount of people > trackside and I saw the ticket sales numbers and they > were not equal by a long shot. > Our Board meetings are open to the Public as far > as I know it is not restricted ot members. Voting > rights at the annual meeting are however reserved for > Life Members. > Altoona City Counsel meetings are open to the > public too. However I have never recieved an > invitation to attend one of them. If I am interested > enough in what is going on in the city government I > have to pick up the phone and call City Hall and ask > for the date and time of the next meeting. Thats all > that had to be done if anyone had wanted to attend a > Museum Board meeting, just call the museum and ask > when and where. To say that you could never attend a > meeting because you were not invited it not a valid > arguement. Just an excuse. > Board meetings are usually held the second > thursday of each month on the third floor of the > Master Mechanics Building at 5:30pm . These meetings > have been suspended as the Board now consists of only > 4 members and we meet several times a week at > different times and locations as there is a tremendous > amount of work to be done. The next full Board meeting > will be in September after the Annual meeting of > members. At that meeting the Life Members will be > voting on the new board members. > I will be posting more information as regularly > as I can. Thanks for the support. > PS does anyone know the phone # for HOOKED ON PHONICS. > I guess I need it. > Dr Andy Mulhollen > Secretary > Executive Committee > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:52:52 -0400 Andy and List, Does anyone know whether cash gift contributions to the Altoona museum are tax deductible? And are they likely eligable for corporate matching gifts? Every little bit helps. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Croyden station Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:00:19 +0000 Does anybody know a source where I can get pictures or plans to model Croyden station on the corridor? There is one picture on pennsy Power 2 but it isn't that great a shot. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:04:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? --part1_189.91ac6c1.2a3a0088_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, I don't recall the book, in it a J1 was listed as using around three hundred (350) gallons per mile while climbing from Altoona to the tunnels. That is seven fifty gallon oil drums for us who need a visual aid. In the NYC's film "The Steam Locomotive, bear with me I know that is (was) the enemy, they mention that their Hudson's, also J1's, used almost three hundred gallons per mile on the NY City to Chicago passenger runs. On the WK&S tourist line near Allentown, Pa., back in the 60's when they ran a Baldwin Prairie (former BH&S #250, 2-6-2) with four coaches and an open gondola, the loco used about two thousand gallons per nine mile trip. That loco weighed in at just over ninety tons. Evan Leisey --part1_189.91ac6c1.2a3a0088_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

  I don't recall the book, in it a J1 was listed as using around three hundred (350) gallons per mile while climbing from Altoona to the tunnels.  That is seven fifty gallon oil drums for us who need a visual aid.  In the NYC's film "The Steam Locomotive, bear with me I know that is (was) the enemy, they mention that their Hudson's, also J1's, used almost three hundred gallons per mile on the NY City to Chicago passenger runs.

 On the WK&S tourist line near Allentown, Pa.,  back in the 60's when they ran a Baldwin Prairie (former BH&S #250, 2-6-2) with four coaches and an open gondola,  the loco used about two thousand gallons per nine mile trip.  That loco weighed in at just over ninety tons.

Evan Leisey
--part1_189.91ac6c1.2a3a0088_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:05:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum From: Jerry Britton I, too, have encouraged Dr. Mulhollen to continue to use this list as a forum to keep us apprised of the status of the Altoona museum. Perhaps I came across too personal -- as I sometimes do -- when I made the comments that struck a nerve...and led to my promotion as an English professor! (By the way, please see http://www.hookedonphonics.com/ !) Andy's initial post did indeed include some factual information and clarification that is important for us all to hear...and I encourage its continuance. My concerns, not intended to be taken so personally, were: * By making a post and signing one's title and "Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum" one is pretty much positioning themself as making an "official statement". That being said, the appearance needs to be professional. Instead, it was full of malformed sentences, some poor grammar, and a lot of missed punctuation. In hindsight, my comment should perhaps have been sent privately and read more as a suggestion. My mistake. * Andy made some assumptions that "implied" that the readership did not spend its money at the museum and its endeavors. I suspect that is a minority case. I have visited the museum no less than six times and have attended RailFest at least four times, including excursions fees. I did not take his statements personally, but reacted on behalf of what I felt was the majority. Perhaps as moderator of this list I should not have taken that liberty. In any event, what is important is helping the Altoona museum as we can. While some assert financial contributions, that may help in the short term. However, it is obvious that fundamental changes are in order or the museum will just be like a boat...a hole in the water into which you pour money! An anonymous writer provided several thoughts, one of which I found especially sound: Sell bricks engraved with the names of former PRR employees and sell them at $100 each. Harrisburg recently did this for Civil War vets for their Civil War Museum which is gaining national notoriety. Fund raising from the above needs to go into an endowment, not the general fund. Grow an endowment and use the interest to offset annual shortcomings. I've offered Andy the opportunity to provide Keystone Crossings with an ad for the random banner ad pool. It's not much, but it's something I can do. Andy: You indicated that board meetings were open to the public. Other members of the museum indicated they were not. As an officer of the museum, please confirm. If they are indeed open, I will add the schedule of meetings to the Timetable on Keystone Crossings. Then you can look forward to some new faces! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:50:28 -0400 From: Rick Miskell Subject: [PRR] re: Altoona Fairwell It amazes me that no response has been made, by the museum, to this offer. Here's a person who obviously knows how to get something done and they don't reply. Hmm...... I recently have come to the conclusion that banks and insurance companies are not your friends. Their mission in life is not to help you keep or protect your money, rather to make as much of your money theirs as possible. This is what concerned me when I read in the Post-Gazette that a retired banker had taken over the BOD. Business people with a bent for producing capital are a definite plus for the Board and for volunteers. A good finance person who is on your side is a definite plus. ALL the good finance people do not necessarily have bank work experience. I would be much more confidant about the future of the Museum if I read that retired/active business owners had been recruited to guide the turn around. C. F. "Rick" Miskell Operations Manager University of Pittsburgh Department of Biological Sciences A354 Langley Hall Pittsburgh, PA 15260 412-624-4274 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:06:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Fairwell In a message dated 6/13/02 3:29:02 AM Central Daylight Time, smartcommco@earthlink.net writes: << The Pennsylvania Railroad was the birthplace of the modern day corporation. >> Nice post. I have read somewhere that the Pennsylvania Railroad was the largest corporation in the world at one time. I can't find my source, but that is also an argument for its history. Its management, good or bad, conservative or not, met a challenge of managing something of a size not previously encountered, at least in a free society. As you point out, how the management and labor accomplished that is a story worth telling. Reminds me a little of my feelings when I finished Ambrose's book on the Transcontinental Railroad. Made you appreciate President Lincoln, those entrepreneurs,managers, and the Irish and Chinese workers (some of whose work is still traveled upon today). I'd like to see the Pennsy story. I am personally starting with Set Up Running, John Orr, which arrived in the mail yesterday. Your thoughts are a great departure from just trying to rearrange a few more buckets of rust in hopes people will want to visit. Bob (off to see UP Challenger 3985 at speed) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:18:39 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Speaking of Altoona AND Strasburg Gentry, Thanks for the advice and input regarding the Altoona area. I think what'll I do is stay at the Days Inn, seeing as how they have a good central location and offer deep discounts to Federal employees. Thanks too, for the reminder about Hosses', this is a definite must do (or must-eat); Lakemont Park sounds like a backup to keep the kids from going stir crazy from too much railfanning. The museum will also be a contender, depending on weather. I'm dissapointed that their bookshelves are reportably getting thin; last year I bought three books and a couple mags there. I'm wondering about another detail. I plan to stop by at Strasburg after leaving Altoona, enroute to South Jersey. It's hard to choose by looking at the map, but what's the better route timewise from Altoona to Strasburg? A person could either drop down to the I76 turnpike or take PA 22 along the old Middle Division. Naturally I'd prefer the scenic route along the railroad, but I don't want to use a lot of extra time. Anyone familar with the driving times of these two routes? Thanks again, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:31:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Altoona AND Strasburg From: Jerry Britton On 6/13/02 11:18 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > I'm wondering about another detail. I plan to stop by at Strasburg after > leaving Altoona, enroute to South Jersey. It's hard to choose by looking at > the map, but what's the better route timewise from Altoona to Strasburg? A > person could either drop down to the I76 turnpike or take PA 22 along the old > Middle Division. Naturally I'd prefer the scenic route along the railroad, but > I don't want to use a lot of extra time. Anyone familar with the driving times > of these two routes? Altoona to Harrisburg East exit of I-76 is about 2:15 (by way of I-99). Altoona to same by way of PA 22 can probably be done in about 2:30-2:45. However, the PA 22 route is one lane in areas and is subject to rush hours in Harrisburg. So timing of your trip is very important. >From the Harrisburg East exit, you can take PA 283 to Lancaster, then east on US 30 to Strasburg. This stretch will take about :45-:60, depending on the time of day. The route through Lancaster has been rebuilt so it will go pretty well. However, once you are on US 30 east of Lancaster it will slow down. You might want to look at turnpike exits east of Harrisburg, though I have never gone that way. I live just off I-83 between Harrisburg and York. I go south to York and east on US 30 and get to the museum at Strasburg in about an hour. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:55:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona to Strasburg Greetings to Barry and the List: Turnpike (I-76) and I-99 is definitely faster, with a 65 mph limit almost all of the distance, even though it is slightly longer than the William Penn Highway (US22) routing. I live in Harrisburg and several times a year make business trips to Altoona, usually out and back in one day. I usually go via Turnpike so as not to waste time, since I'm often heading for a meeting or appointment. Also, in the mornings, those school buses can slow things down on the two-lane areas west of Lewistown. I return via US220-PA453-US22 (follows the railroad most closely) in the evening when I'm not on such a tight schedule. Average times: Harrisburg to Altoona via Turnpike, 2:20 to 2:30; via Route 22, 2:45. On the latter, right now there's a lot of road reconstruction going on between the south end of the Lewistown Narrows and Amity Hall, with several single-lane restrictions (Mifflintown, Newport) in place. Between Harrisburg and Strasburg, no route is optimum at the moment. Ordinarily you'd do best to get off the Turnpike at Harrisburg East and use PA283 to US30, but reconstruction is under way betwen Middletown and Elizabethtown and it's down to one lane in each direction there, too. Staying on the Turnpike may save a few minutes to the Lebanon-Lancster interchange, but from there south to US30 at Lancaster is a slow two-lane PA 72. For this portion, Harrisburg to Strasburg, give yourself fully one hour via either routing. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:46:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders List members, As Jerry has stated, I have been using the NCE Switch-It devices on my layout for about a year. I built my layout to be as interactive with the operators as possible and thereby I chose to use only Caboose Industry hand-throws for all turnouts that were within reach of the aisle. I have over 35 turnouts on my layout and I host operating sessions once a month for 8-10 crew members plus a YM and Dispatcher. I also model in HO Scale. OLD pictures of my layout can be found at: kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/kulp/index.html When Jerry finally gets back to my place to take some updated pictures, this will be corrected. When my first session showed some problems with having turnouts thrown by the crews while the dispatcher maintained control over movements, my dispatcher asked if there was some way to put the turnouts under his control. Jeff Warner had shown me the NCE devices and after I tested one, I decided to give them a try with the 6 motorized switches on my layout. I am using a computer to control my signaling and the program needs to know switch positions as well. I had feedback to the system via the contacts on the Tortoise machines I had in place as well as micro switches on the hand throws. Jef is a computer wizard, bar none, and he had created a program using available Digitrax TSRs by John Kabat. Not only can you control locomotives, He added a program to control stationary decoders like the NCE Switch-It. We tested the devices during the second operating session of the year just prior to the PRRT&HS national convention and I had even added 8 more Tortoise machines to the layout to provide almost total control of the turnouts to the dispatcher during the session. The session was a great success and the dispatcher was amazed at how well the devices worked. The NCE devices use rail power to activate and drive the turnout motors. The only time there is any drain of power is when the motor is turning. The stall power is no worse than an engine setting on the rails with it's light on. The drawback is if you use power-routing switches. Some bone-headed throttle-jockey runs an open switch and your power district shuts down. A catch-22 is that if you use the same power district to throw the switch, you can't correct the situation because of the short killing the rail power. My solution was to power the switch from a different power district than the rails that it throws. The problem is non-existant if you use non-power routing switches. The NCE device permits you to use any available address instead of the mandatory consecutive addressing the DS54 requires. It is capable of handling a pair of motors per address if you have a situation like a cross-over on the mainline. They can be thrown from the throttles, a computer with appropriate software and auxilary buttons on the facia or a CTC panel at the dispatcher's station using RIX CTC controllers. As far as system feedback goes, whenever I check a turnout position on my throttle, it is always correct but I also do not shut down my DCS-100, I put it into sleep mode at the end of a session. In closing, I like the devices. They have opened up a whole new way of operation to my sessions and they have not detracted from the fun during an op session since the dispatcher is responsible for traffic flow. If anyone would like to see them in operation, a simple request is all that is needed to visit my layout. Preferrably a Sunday afternoon since I won't answer the phone on Saturdays out of consideration to the guys that help build my layout during a work session. Regards, Nick Kulp >Both lack auxiliary power inputs and I am wondering if having 100 turnouts >connected on a layout would cause a negative effect (though I will have four >power districts with their own boosters). Can anyone comment on the power >draw? > >FWIW, I consider the cost per turnout to be equal, even though the NCE is >slightly more expensive. > http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:41:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders From: Jerry Britton On 6/13/02 1:46 PM, Nick Kulp (caseyj@igateway.com) wrote: > As Jerry has stated, I have been using the NCE Switch-It devices on my layout > for about a year. Sorry, list, but Nick mistakenly responded on the wrong list...this was intended for the PRR-ER list! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:54:11 -0500 Is there not a recent article in Model Raolroader about how to control switches fromtwo different locations? -----Original Message----- From: Nick Kulp [mailto:caseyj@igateway.com] Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 12:46 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders List members, As Jerry has stated, I have been using the NCE Switch-It devices on my layout for about a year. I built my layout to be as interactive with the operators as possible and thereby I chose to use only Caboose Industry hand-throws for all turnouts that were within reach of the aisle. I have over 35 turnouts on my layout and I host operating sessions once a month for 8-10 crew members plus a YM and Dispatcher. I also model in HO Scale. OLD pictures of my layout can be found at: kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/kulp/index.html When Jerry finally gets back to my place to take some updated pictures, this will be corrected. When my first session showed some problems with having turnouts thrown by the crews while the dispatcher maintained control over movements, my dispatcher asked if there was some way to put the turnouts under his control. Jeff Warner had shown me the NCE devices and after I tested one, I decided to give them a try with the 6 motorized switches on my layout. I am using a computer to control my signaling and the program needs to know switch positions as well. I had feedback to the system via the contacts on the Tortoise machines I had in place as well as micro switches on the hand throws. Jef is a computer wizard, bar none, and he had created a program using available Digitrax TSRs by John Kabat. Not only can you control locomotives, He added a program to control stationary decoders like the NCE Switch-It. We tested the devices during the second operating session of the year just prior to the PRRT&HS national convention and I had even added 8 more Tortoise machines to the layout to provide almost total control of the turnouts to the dispatcher during the session. The session was a great success and the dispatcher was amazed at how well the devices worked. The NCE devices use rail power to activate and drive the turnout motors. The only time there is any drain of power is when the motor is turning. The stall power is no worse than an engine setting on the rails with it's light on. The drawback is if you use power-routing switches. Some bone-headed throttle-jockey runs an open switch and your power district shuts down. A catch-22 is that if you use the same power district to throw the switch, you can't correct the situation because of the short killing the rail power. My solution was to power the switch from a different power district than the rails that it throws. The problem is non-existant if you use non-power routing switches. The NCE device permits you to use any available address instead of the mandatory consecutive addressing the DS54 requires. It is capable of handling a pair of motors per address if you have a situation like a cross-over on the mainline. They can be thrown from the throttles, a computer with appropriate software and auxilary buttons on the facia or a CTC panel at the dispatcher's station using RIX CTC controllers. As far as system feedback goes, whenever I check a turnout position on my throttle, it is always correct but I also do not shut down my DCS-100, I put it into sleep mode at the end of a session. In closing, I like the devices. They have opened up a whole new way of operation to my sessions and they have not detracted from the fun during an op session since the dispatcher is responsible for traffic flow. If anyone would like to see them in operation, a simple request is all that is needed to visit my layout. Preferrably a Sunday afternoon since I won't answer the phone on Saturdays out of consideration to the guys that help build my layout during a work session. Regards, Nick Kulp >Both lack auxiliary power inputs and I am wondering if having 100 turnouts >connected on a layout would cause a negative effect (though I will have four >power districts with their own boosters). Can anyone comment on the power >draw? > >FWIW, I consider the cost per turnout to be equal, even though the NCE is >slightly more expensive. > http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:02:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 6/12/02 11:40:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jlrosen@wpa.net writes: << We always called em inclines. >> Funicular: (operative root word is a cord or fiber) refers to the cord or cable. Surprised that Mark Bey has not weighed it on this, as one series of meanings of the word has to due with his medical specialty. Nerves or bundles of nerves such as the spinal cord. It would be possible to have a single car or multiple car Funicular Railway (Like the cable S.F. cable car system) but term Funicular Raiway has come to mean systems like Pburgh's or Altoona's where the weight of the ascending car is fully or partially offsett by the descending car. Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the ones cited above? Dick Ross, Cleveland. BTW - the idea of selling named bricks is not bad - but both Altoona and Strasburgh have been selling name plates for the memory of railroaders - for a long time - (My family bought 2 at Strsburgh, before the Altoona museum opened - The ones in Strasburgh are in the Rolling Stock Hall - the ones at Altoona were buried in the conference room, last time I was there.) Duplication of effort and duplication of fund raising - my feeling is that the downtown portion of the Altoona museum and anything salvageable, from the collection should be transferred to the Curve or to Strasburgh, in order to assure the survival of those 2 sites....... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Sorry Jerry,I made a mistake. The meeting I attended was in late Sept. just before Railfest. It was the annual members only meeting.-----Mark---- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:44:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem --part1_168.f0c49c9.2a3a966d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir Thank you for responding. I for one would like to thank you for your generosity in providign your services "pro bono" to the museum. Although I agree with the spirit of your letter I would like to disagree to oen particular part. As I am the author of the message you refer to, my reference to the "big picture" is simply this. The big picture is the historic value of the Pennsylvania Railroad. The big picture is the restoration of the PRR station in Latrobe Pa, the big picture is the preservation of PRR's first hump yard in Youngwood Pa. The big picture is in Enola, Philidelphia, & Pittsburgh. The big picture is the decaying round house in Ohio which was reported on this list several months ago, possibly a resource for materials for the quarter round house at Altoona. The big picture is the preservation of documents, artifacts and tangible items that remain from the PRR. The situation at Altoona is the current squeeky wheel and warrants immidiate attention. What needs to be done now is for all of us to put our shoulders together to rectify this situation and insure it does not happen again. Last night I responded to what I perceived as a very angry letter attacking this list and the many quality people that make it what it is. If you took offense to my response, sorry. But, I will not appologize for defending the integrity of this list and its subscribers. As you are well aware, I spoke up last night. But, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and sent a donation today to the museum as Mr Bill Laird of Texas did earlier today. Take care. Steve Keough --part1_168.f0c49c9.2a3a966d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir
  Thank you for responding.  I for one would like to thank you for your generosity in providign your services "pro bono" to the museum.  Although I agree with the spirit of your letter I would like to disagree to oen particular part.  As I am the author of the message you refer to, my reference to the "big picture" is simply this.  The big picture is the historic value of the Pennsylvania Railroad.  The big picture is the restoration of the PRR station in Latrobe Pa, the big picture is the preservation of PRR's first hump yard in Youngwood Pa.  The big picture is in Enola, Philidelphia, & Pittsburgh.  The big picture is the decaying round house in Ohio which was reported on this list several months ago, possibly a resource for materials for the quarter round house at Altoona.  The big picture is the preservation of documents, artifacts and tangible items that remain from the PRR.  The situation at Altoona is the current squeeky whee   What needs to be done now is for all of us to put our shoulders together to rectify this situation and insure it does not happen again.  Last night I responded to what I perceived as a very angry letter attacking this list and the many quality people that make it what it is.  If you took offense to my response, sorry.  But, I will not appologize for defending the integrity of this list and its subscribers.  As you are well aware, I spoke up last night.  But, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and sent a donation today to the museum as Mr Bill Laird of Texas did earlier today.  Take care.
                                                                                                  Steve Keough --part1_168.f0c49c9.2a3a966d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Imperial Models Q2 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:01:21 -0400 Group, This is a question for the HO modelers out there. I have a bad gearbox in this Q2 Does anyone know a drop in replacement? And while I am at it Should I get a can motor? Thanks for all the help on this. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:23:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? --part1_139.fab90d6.2a3a9f83_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the > ones cited above? > > Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline. At one time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh. Rich Orr --part1_139.fab90d6.2a3a9f83_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:


   Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the
ones cited above?



Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline.  At one time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh.

Rich Orr --part1_139.fab90d6.2a3a9f83_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:36:04 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? There were 2 "incline railways" @ the turn of the century in Hamilton, ON Canada - Godfrey Hall VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/02 11:40:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jlrosen@wpa.net > writes: > > << We always called em inclines. >> > Funicular: (operative root word is a cord or fiber) refers to the cord or > cable. > Surprised that Mark Bey has not weighed it on this, as one series of > meanings of the word has to due with his medical specialty. Nerves or bundles > of nerves such as the spinal cord. > It would be possible to have a single car or multiple car Funicular > Railway (Like the cable S.F. cable car system) but term Funicular Raiway has > come to mean systems like Pburgh's or Altoona's where the weight of the > ascending car is fully or partially offsett by the descending car. > Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the > ones cited above? > > Dick Ross, > Cleveland. > > BTW - the idea of selling named bricks is not bad - but both Altoona and > Strasburgh have been selling name plates for the memory of railroaders - for > a long time - (My family bought 2 at Strsburgh, before the Altoona museum > opened - The ones in Strasburgh are in the Rolling Stock Hall - the ones at > Altoona were buried in the conference room, last time I was there.) > Duplication of effort and duplication of fund raising - my feeling is > that the downtown portion of the Altoona museum and anything salvageable, > from the collection should be transferred to the Curve or to Strasburgh, in > order to assure the survival of those 2 sites....... > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:48:00 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona... never say Fairwell Harry, This is a most generous offer... I admire your gift and hope the museum's BoD see it as a once in a life time gift. smartcommco@earthlink.net writes: > I contacted Mr. Levin and offered my services as a marketing person to the museum. He forwarded my credentials to Dr. Mullhollan. Dr. Mullhollan contacted me last week and asked for my help. I volunteered my services and the services of my firm pro bono, with two caveats. First, that our out of pocket expenses (postage, duplicating, etc.) be covered and second that we be given the creative freedom to do what had to be done to bring the museum to the attention of those who could save it from a tragic demise. Dr. Mullhollan has yet to respond to our generous offer of assistance. So be it.< One can only hope that they see your vision and take advantage of your offer. I think the idea of auctioning off the Athearn Genises F-Unit set and the ad as well as the photo I worked from would is fanstic and hopefully make a nice little package that could help in some small way to aid the museum. I will take this one step furhter and donate to the museum in the name of Mr. David Sweetland my Life Like ALCo PA/B set as a permanent part of the museums display in the same manner. Perhaps we could convince Mr. Sweetland to loan us his origainl slides that I worked from just one more time for duplication to make the package complete. Again, allowing them to be auctioned off to the highest bidder and I bet I could get Life Like to be the opening bidder. I was given a photo from the John D. Hahn collection by Mr. Paul Withers of an EMD F-3 A/A set of diesel locomotives to work from for an upcoming poject, again I would be willing to donate these to the museum as a package in the name of the late John D Hahn, Paul Withers and Dan Cupper, the keepers of the keys to Jo Again, I always believed a museum was forever... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:44:54 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona... never say Fairwell Harry, This is a most generous offer... I admire your gift and hope the museum's BoD see it as a once in a life time gift. smartcommco@earthlink.net writes: > I contacted Mr. Levin and offered my services as a marketing person to the museum. He forwarded my credentials to Dr. Mullhollan. Dr. Mullhollan contacted me last week and asked for my help. I volunteered my services and the services of my firm pro bono, with two caveats. First, that our out of pocket expenses (postage, duplicating, etc.) be covered and second that we be given the creative freedom to do what had to be done to bring the museum to the attention of those who could save it from a tragic demise. Dr. Mullhollan has yet to respond to our generous offer of assistance. So be it.< One can only hope that they see your vision and take advantage of your offer. I think the idea of auctioning off the Athearn Genises F-Unit set and the ad as well as the photo I worked from would is fanstic and hopefully make a nice little package that could help in some small way to aid the museum. I will take this one step furhter and donate to the museum in the name of Mr. David Sweetland my Life Like ALCo PA/B set as a permanent part of the museums display in the same manner. Perhaps we could convince Mr. Sweetland to loan us his origainl slides that I worked from just one more time for duplication to make the package complete. Again, allowing them to be auctioned off to the highest bidder and I bet I could get Life Like to be the opening bidder. I was given a photo from the John D. Hahn collection by Mr. Paul Withers of an EMD F-3 A/A set of diesel locomotives to work from for an upcoming poject, again I would be willing to donate these to the museum as a package in the name of the late John D Hahn, Paul Withers and Dan Cupper, the keepers of the keys to Jo Again, I always believed a museum was forever... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:00:17 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum Greetings to List; There was a recent thread in the subject discussion wondering "how" and "why" there came to be a museum in Altoona. The answer to this is in the history of the Horseshoe Curve chapter NRHS at www.trainweb.org/horseshoecruve-nrhs. But, since I was around in those days, here goes. During 1964 and 1965 Altoona was aware that the Commonwealth of PA intended to build the Railroad Museum of PA, and, as would be expected, Altoona competed for the site location as did other locales, especially Lancaster County. At the time, Altoona had significant intact PRR infrastructure, especially the PRR Test Plant and Locomotive Test Rack. Lancaster had Tourism established. Altoona lacked a "Senior" politician. Lancaster did not. And the rest is history. No sour grapes, just facts and that's the way it was. Altoona's disappointment was of significant magnitude and a big let-down, however. In 1966, I and about 5 other persons, answered an adv in the local paper placed by the Blair County Tourist and Convention Bureau to explore ways and means to establish a railroad museum for Altoona. While the initial meeting brought no answers, the group bonded in a common cause. From this grew a loose-knit organization known as the Altoona Railway Museum Club and we started to explore the issue, and began to sponsor various PRR-related historical displays in store windows and other locations to generate an awareness of the Altoona heritage. In 1967, the members of the Altoona Railway Museum Club became aware of an organization known as the National Railway Historical Society. ARMC applied for a charter and the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS was granted that charter on May 11, 1968. Almost simultaneous to the granting of the NRHS charter, the new Horseshoe Curve Chapter gained two new members: Mr. and Mrs. Raymond Garvin. Mr. Garvin came to Altoona from Bradford to head up the Blair County Tourist and Convention Bureau, became aware of our group and joined. Mr. Garvin later moved to the position of Marketing Director of Central Counties Bank. However, he was in a position of influence in the community and through his efforts and leadership, (Altoona) Railroader's Memorial Museum was officially chartered as a PA non-profit corporation (on paper) in 1972, just 4 years after the granting of the NRHS charter. Through his continued leadership, ARMM slowly began to take shape, mostly on paper, but with it's roots in the Horseshoe Curve Chapter. A board was formed and efforts to increase heritage awareness and raise funds continued. At the time when the "pet rock" was popular, museum members got seed money by selling baby food jars of steam locomotive exhaust cinders for a dollar per jar. With the subsequent purchase and arrival in Altoona of the first significant piece of rolling stock for the museum, Charles M. Scshwab's private railroad car, the "Loretto", (From the Magee Transportation Museum at Bloomsburg, PA) the museum project gained greater credibility. Gradually, however, the (Altoona) Railroader's Memorial Museum gained a life of it's own and, although born in and through the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, became a separate entity of necessity. Finally, museum doors in the one-story (now building B) opened on September 21, 1980. The Altoona museum is a private non-profit corporation, built and constructed without government grants or funds. Local contributions and a capital fund-raising campaign built the intial facility. The original mortage of $500,000. was paid off by the museum's 5th birthday. And the rest is history, as they say. Today, ARMM is a multi-million dollar non-profit corporation with state-of-the-art facilities. State and private grants have assisted in capital expansion projects, but is still a non-governmentally supported operation as far as the general funding stream goes. Regardless of the present difficulties, we in Altoona value this museum and are proud of it. And, Pennsylvania is fortunate to be home to many superb transportation museums, the hallmark of which is that none duplicate each other in the story told. As a docent and museum volunteer, I can see the benefits to the greater Altoona area when I talk with and explain this valuable heritage to tours of school students, especially in the elementary and middle school ranges. We must see that the story continues. ARMM hopes for your support, both financial and, if not, in spirit. Dave Seidel Chapter Historian, Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS PRRT&HS member ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:02:04 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Members of the List, I am very impressed with this group of people. I am sorry if I sounded like I thought the people on this list were dumb. They are uninformed at times about things but I am hoping to keep you all informed. I was overjoyed to hear some of you guys are sending a donation. Please, if you send a donation write on the check on on a note with it that you are a member of this group. I would very much like to see that all of you are given credit together as members of this group. If you have already sent a donation but did not identify yourself as a prrtalk member then please email me off list so I can tell Mary to watch for them so I can put your name with the rest of the guys. I did reply to Mr Webber asking for some more info. I guess I sent it to the wrong address, I did not blow him off. Just a misunderstanding. I have emailed him again at the address he gave to the list. This is a very generous offer that he has made. I hear concerns about Memorial Hall. It is in Building B (the origional Museum building) . It looks the same as the day it was started , which is really not that good. Remodeling Memorial Hall is high on the priority list of things to do when the dust settles and we are on firm financial ground again. We already have the plans drawn up. It will look very nice when it is done. I think it is probably the single most significant place in the museum as it is where we pay tribute to those who made the PRR great. We are hoping to actually start holding memorial services there on a regular basis. This is part of the refocusing of museum priorities. We had a meeting today of the Chairman of several of the Committees that are in place. We have several active committes made up of community leaders and business people who are volunteering their time to the cause. While I cannot give you alot of details about the meeting . There are alot of things in the works. We hope to have alot more special programs including a possible Antique Roadshow type program for Railroad Collectibles. Sounds like fun to me. I just wanted to give you an example. I am heading up the Railfest efforts at this time. I am looking for good ideas of things to have in the yard for Railfest this year. If anyone has a good idea please email me offlist I am all ears. I have some ideas of my own but I would like input from this group. Thanks for your time. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:13:10 +0000 There were several in Cincinatti at one time and there is one in Chatanooga. Also one at the Royal Gorge that takes you down to the bottom. But on the PRR I have no idea. N Bell > In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > VVA249@aol.com writes: > > > > Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the > > ones cited above? > > > > > > Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline. At one > time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh. > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:55:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2139A.54990140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What in he world is an automobile incline? Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com=20 To: VVA249@aol.com ; Prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = VVA249@aol.com writes:=20 Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than = the=20 ones cited above?=20 Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline. = At one time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh.=20 Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2139A.54990140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What in he world is an automobile = incline?
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SUVCWORR@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 = 9:23=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A = MUSEUM TO=20 FAR?

In a = message dated=20 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:


   Anyone care to comment on present or = former=20 locations, other than the
ones cited above?=20



Johnstown -- first and only (I think) = remaining=20 automobile incline.  At one time there were 11 of these in = Pittsburgh.=20

Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2139A.54990140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:16:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? --- William Bigler wrote: > What in he world is an automobile incline? An incline equiped to carry automobiles, that is, a flat platform you candrive onto and be whisked up (or down) the hill. There may be a more generic term, but I don't know what it is. In Pittsburgh, some of the inclines were so equiped in pre-automobile days to allow horse-drawn wagons to get up hills without working the horses to death. Given that many early cars and trucks were rather low-powered, they too needed such a service. I believe the motivation in Johnstown was to provide an escape route in the event of another flood. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:30:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: Jerry Britton On 6/14/02 12:16 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > An incline equiped to carry automobiles, that is, a > flat platform you candrive onto and be whisked up (or > down) the hill. There may be a more generic term, but > I don't know what it is. > > In Pittsburgh, some of the inclines were so equiped in > pre-automobile days to allow horse-drawn wagons to get > up hills without working the horses to death. Given > that many early cars and trucks were rather > low-powered, they too needed such a service. > > I believe the motivation in Johnstown was to provide > an escape route in the event of another flood. > > I was in Johnstown a few weekends ago and witnessed two autos make the trip. Interesting. A pedestrian could get a round trip for $4. I believe an auto and its driver could go one way for $6, but don't quote me! It doesn't save a ton of driving, so I guess it's just a novelty for some. I believe you are correct in indicating the original intent was an escape route in the event of another flood (following the most famous one in 1899). I also seem to recall that the upper hills were not yet very settled. The incline provided transportation to and from the city to encourage people to move uphill. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:59:16 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than X42 In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > class. > > My list states the following: > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > Regards, > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > Hi Eddie, Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as "Postal Storage Cars". In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with bag hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to B60b's? in the Twenties? Thirties?. A 1939 consist starts out with a definition list for the equipment called out, and includes B50, B60, B70, and MS60 -- nevertheless, many other "nonclass" designations like BG for baggage and EXP for express. As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not identified as such there. Total cars equipped could be as high as 539. In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be active on these trains. Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations purposes? With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a mechanical department class long ago. 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail storage space. 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express messenger) fit in these number series? 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks to all who contributed info so far... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:59:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than --part1_de.2883aabb.2a3b7ae4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > class. > > My list states the following: > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > Regards, > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > Hi Eddie, Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as "Postal Storage Cars". In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with bag hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to B60b's? in the Twenties? Thirties?. A 1939 consist starts out with a definition list for the equipment called out, and includes B50, B60, B70, and MS60 -- nevertheless, many other "nonclass" designations like BG for baggage and EXP for express. As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not identified as such there. Total cars equipped could be as high as 539. In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be active on these trains. Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations purposes? With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a mechanical department class long ago. 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail storage space. 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express messenger) fit in these number series? 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks to all who contributed info so far... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_de.2883aabb.2a3b7ae4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes:


Rick & List-

According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class.

My list states the following:
MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950-     #2540-2549-    2D-F32   

1/53 ORPTE lists;

MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars.

Regards,

Eddie

Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO


Hi Eddie,

Thanks for the input.  As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction.  For example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code (MR).

I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60.  The car itself is always lettered X42.  But I notice also their description as "Postal Storage Cars".

In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with bag hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to B60b's? in the Twenties? Thirties?.  A 1939 consist starts out with a definition list for the equipment called out, and includes B50, B60, B70, and MS60 -- nevertheless, many other "nonclass" designations like BG for baggage and EXP for express.  As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent swinging mail stanchions".  The numbers given are B60b's, though not identified as such there.   Total cars equipped could be as high as 539.

In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars.  In fact, #13 alone calls for 15 MS60.  I think this alone rules out X42's being all of the mysterious MS60.  OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be active on these trains.

Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"?  Could it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations purposes?

With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe:
1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a mechanical department class long ago.
2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail storage space.
3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404).  Question: is it just chance that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express messenger) fit in these number series?
4.  I'm not sure how pure we can get on this.  For example, in a Sept 1953 consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car.  Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday.

There's a lot we don't know.  For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US mail only?  Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60?

Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many.  Thanks to all who contributed info so far...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_de.2883aabb.2a3b7ae4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:57:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? --part1_108.133d44f7.2a3b8892_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > What in he world is an automobile incline? > > Bill Bigler > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough to carry automobiles up and down the incline. Rich Orr --part1_108.133d44f7.2a3b8892_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes:


What in he world is an automobile incline?

Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo &
    Williamsport WWII


It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough to carry automobiles up and down the incline.

Rich Orr --part1_108.133d44f7.2a3b8892_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:07:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: Jerry Britton On 6/14/02 1:57 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > > > What in he world is an automobile incline? > > Bill Bigler > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough > to carry automobiles up and down the incline. > Just so happens somebody did a web page on the Johnstown funicular... http://www.funimag.com/funimag10/JOHNSTOW.HTM ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:11:40 +0000 actually as long as the load is BALANCED and the cable is strong enough there really isn't a limit to how much weight you can move up or down the inlcine. All you need to do is overcome the forces of friction. That is how the Portage railroad moved barges and trains over the mountains when built. > In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > > > > What in he world is an automobile incline? > > > > Bill Bigler > > Modeling PRR Renovo & > > Williamsport WWII > > > > It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough > to carry automobiles up and down the incline. > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:09:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh inclines Someone rashly said "...Pittsburgh had 11...". See: http://www.sgi.net/marbles/may96/incl2.html for information on the *15* inclines in Pittsburgh. Please note that the Monogahela Incline (both of them)) on its way from Carson St. to the top of Mt. Washington passed over the tracks of the PCC&StL (Pittsburgh and Steubenville, actually). Also, the Penn Incline passed over the full width of the yards at the Pennsylvania Station, thus doubly preserving topicality. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:13:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: X-29 photos From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Listers I have scanned a side view slide of PRR MW X-29 box car #489546 that sat on the wreck train siding at Sewickley, PA, for months at a time. I'm not used to the slide scanner and am having trouble getting the brightness and contrast just right. By Monday I hope to have scans of the B end, details of the B end showing the cut lever and brake chain attachment to the shaft, and a couple of shots of the underside detail. These shots were taken in July 1995. I have not seen this car for two or three years, and a MW worker at Penn Station in Pittsburgh told me it was going to be scrapped. It is MW yellow, very rusty, with shadow keystone. Using my microscope I can see a build month of 10, but rust is covering the year. If anyone knows the year of construction, I'd appreciate receiving the info. If anyone outside my list of permanent photo recipients wants copies let me know. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:21:33 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh inclines A few minutes ago I rashly claimed there had been 15 inclines in Pittsburgh. See: http://pittsburgh.miningco.com/cs/transhistory/ then click on "Chronology of Pittsburgh inclines" for a look at a mere whisper of data on *19* inclines. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Faniculars and Inclines Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:28:20 -0400 Whoops! I sent this to the wrong list by mistake. Here's your copy; > I believe the first and original incline was on the "Isle of Capri" in > Italy. It's still in operation and was (and is to this day) called a > Funicular. Perhaps you remember the childhood song "Faniculi, Fanicula." > That refers to (or came from) faniculars. I rode the Capri funicua a couple > years ago. Fantastic place, Capri. I recommend it. Not trains though! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:38:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Hi Eddie, > Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class > designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For > example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) > by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code > (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The > car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as > "Postal Storage Cars". Rick & Lists- I based my statement on a list that I have developed for the year 1953. The only info I could find on MS60 were the numbers 2540-2549. The 1/53 ORPTE lists these cars as: MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. No other cars on this ORPTE are listed as MR- Postal storage. All of the numbers you have listed are noted as: BE- Baggage-Express-steel. Therefore, I deduced that MS60 was a distinct class. > As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division > train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent > swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not > identified as such there. "Permanent swinging mail stanchions" are the hooks attached to the cars at the doors for mail pickup. I think they were used on RPO's, not on Mail-Storage cars. > In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, > #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of > the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not > called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be > active on these trains. X42 cars were built in 1950. I do not know whether MS60 was used on Baggage cars prior to 1953. It is certainly possible, but as my interest lies in 1953, I have never researched it further. > Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could > it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations > purposes? I have created a personal list using the cars listed on the 1/53 ORPTE. It includes class, names, numbers, length, paint, trucks & other info. It was compiled from every book I own, info found on web sites & reviewing several thousand e-mail messages. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: > 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a > mechanical department class long ago. > 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), > post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and > X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail > storage space. > 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions > (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance > that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express > messenger) fit in these number series? > 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 > consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, > but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. > Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, > and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. > > There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US > mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? > > Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks > to all who contributed info so far... > > Rick Tipton > > In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:38:17 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Hi Eddie, > Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class > designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For > example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) > by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code > (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The > car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as > "Postal Storage Cars". Rick & Lists- I based my statement on a list that I have developed for the year 1953. The only info I could find on MS60 were the numbers 2540-2549. The 1/53 ORPTE lists these cars as: MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. No other cars on this ORPTE are listed as MR- Postal storage. All of the numbers you have listed are noted as: BE- Baggage-Express-steel. Therefore, I deduced that MS60 was a distinct class. > As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division > train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent > swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not > identified as such there. "Permanent swinging mail stanchions" are the hooks attached to the cars at the doors for mail pickup. I think they were used on RPO's, not on Mail-Storage cars. > In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, > #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of > the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not > called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be > active on these trains. X42 cars were built in 1950. I do not know whether MS60 was used on Baggage cars prior to 1953. It is certainly possible, but as my interest lies in 1953, I have never researched it further. > Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could > it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations > purposes? I have created a personal list using the cars listed on the 1/53 ORPTE. It includes class, names, numbers, length, paint, trucks & other info. It was compiled from every book I own, info found on web sites & reviewing several thousand e-mail messages. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: > 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a > mechanical department class long ago. > 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), > post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and > X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail > storage space. > 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions > (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance > that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express > messenger) fit in these number series? > 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 > consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, > but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. > Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, > and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. > > There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US > mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? > > Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks > to all who contributed info so far... > > Rick Tipton > > In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:40:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR MP54 Info Hi Mike, I'm posting this reply to the list so that the listers can double check me ! >That's about the only information I've gotten from my inquiry on this >board that even began to answer my question, but it still doesn't tell >me everything. It seemed a logical reason just by looking at it, and >it's what I need to know for sure. What cars changed, to what trucks, >and at what point in their careers? Where can I find this out? OK, here's what I've found in a first scan of my reference material: 1) As you may realize, the use of the generic class "MP54" for electrically powered cars is incorrect. On the PRR, class MP54 were unpowered coaches without pantographs, propulsion equipment or controls. When built, these cars received plain bearing trucks (2C-P1) with a 7'0" wheelbase. 2C-P2 plain journal trucks with an 8'0" wheelbase were applied at some point. These are early trucks with channel or I-beam sideframes. 2) When initially modified to use as self propelled cars, the class was changed to MP54E1. The power truck was located under the pantograph, and is shown in plans to have an 8'8" wheelbase while the non-powered truck has a 8'0" wheelbase. As far as I can tell, the power truck was class 2D6P1 with an 8'8" wheelbase and plain bearings. The unpowered truck remained as before. Coincident were the creations of classes MPB54BE1 (combine), MB62E1 (baggage) and MBM62E1 (baggage-mail). 3) An additional group of 201 cars were added from 1926-30, including the only cars (69) built from scratch for use as self-propelled cars, creating class MP54E2 (and additional combined, baggage and mail classes in the E2 group). A builder's photo from this group implies that at least some of these cars were built with what you refer to as "Hyatt" trucks. This is probably a poor choice of terminology. These trucks appear to be class 2D8P1, with roller bearings (identified as SKF in the Keystone 33(3), 2000) and an 8'8" wheelbase. 4) Between 1932 and 1937 approximately 46 motorized cars were converted to class E3 including 38 coaches and 8 baggage. These motors may have been equipped with class 2D8P1 trucks as well. In addition 4 unpowered baggage mail cars and 43 coaches were converted to classed MBM62T and MP54T, retaining their earlier trucks and were semipermanently coupled to the power cars. Note: I thought that some of these cars had their back vestibule windows blanked out, but the only photo I've seen is of a MP54E2... 5) Sometime around 1934, MP54E1-3 appear in photos with a mix of trucks. In some cases, earlier photos show two 2D8P1 trucks first, followed by replacement of the unpowered truck with what appears to be a earlier 2C-P2 truck. Others may have had only their original power truck replaced with a 2D8P1 truck. Plain bearing nonpowered trucks were still in use into the 1960's. 6) When upgraded to MP54E5/E6 standards in the 1950's many of these cars received 2D12P1 trucks with an 8'10" wheelbase, Timken roller bearings and traction motors on both trucks. References: The Keystone, Autumn 2000 (vol 33 no 3). Pennsy Car Plans, Robert J. Wayner, 1969 Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book, N.J.International Inc, 1984 Pennsy Power II, Staufer Under Pennsy Wires, Carlton Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:42:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Columbus replacing Dennison as a classification Also app;ies to watering distances... A piece of "oral" history from the "docent" at the Dennison depot museum - last time I was there a few summers ago - Their Depot is a RR - WW2 museum dedicated to the "Doughnut Dollies" at their Depot during WW2, They played up the fact that by WW2 they were a "Tank Town" - and proud of it - trains generally stopped only to take water at tank Local ladies fed the troops, as there was not much else around the Depot. Last time I was there, they did have a neat little lunch room in the depot - with WW2 era music and 48 star flags. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean Rick, I was looking at my PRR East-West Passenger Consist Book, and I notice the on a lot of the trains, "MS60" have the letter "X" next to the code meaning "REA Express" Also so note:"all MS60 Express and Paper Cars are to be R50 or X29 type unless otherwise indicated." Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) Imperial Models Q2 Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:12:27 -0400 Howdy Sam and List: It was a battle, but I found it. The Gear Box Shawn Stevens thegearbox@terragon.com 541-862-2039 I had the chance to talk to Shawn, he remembered my K4s (it wasn't in that bad a shape). He has just completed working on a Q2 - re-motor, DCC, paint and such stuff. I highly recommend him - good communications throughout the project. He does steam and diesel - any scale. Good luck and please let me know how it turns out! Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:01 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Imperial Models Q2 Group, This is a question for the HO modelers out there. I have a bad gearbox in this Q2 Does anyone know a drop in replacement? And while I am at it Should I get a can motor? Thanks for all the help on this. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: joe hildenbrand Subject: [PRR] Exton Frieghts & LD trains Hello, Well, I just moved back to the Philadelphia area from Texas. It’s great to be back in the area and have been frequently checking out the area rail scene on a daily basis. Did Amtrak slow their speeds for the Three Rivers and the Pennsylvanian? Both of the eastbound and westbound trains I saw the last week cruised by really slow, even along the big straightaway at Exton and running two hours late. The slow speeds were confirmed when a SEPTA passed by the same location deadheading from Thorndale, it was moving! I noticed the track was in terrible condition. Lot’s of spikes were missing or lifted halfway out, ties were disintegrated, and track #2 around Exton was horrible. Which brings me to the original intent of this message. How frequently is the track used? And when, and how often do the local freights run on the track? I remember seeing some trains traveling from the steel plants in Coatsville to points east. How often do these run and is there a set schedule they follow? Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:12:38 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR H30a Hi All, I was just experimenting with my new Fuji S602 digital camera. I replaced the previous photo of my recently finished S Scale H30a from my scanner with one taken in my studio setting. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_ScaleH30A.jpg This camera is SO much more light sensitive then my film cameras. I have my studio flash turned all the way down. Please give the photo a look. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:16:44 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than X42 A thought. Perhaps the MS60 describes the usage of the car, not the physical car. Some mail cars were locked and sealed at the originating Post Office and delivered to the receiving Post Office still locked. i.e. the car was used for mail storage. Other cars were not sealed and could be used for the delivery and receipt of bagged mail at various stops. Just a though. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Edmond L. Freed [SMTP:docfoot@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 5:38 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than X42 > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Hi Eddie, > Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class > designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For > example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) > by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code > (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The > car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as > "Postal Storage Cars". Rick & Lists- I based my statement on a list that I have developed for the year 1953. The only info I could find on MS60 were the numbers 2540-2549. The 1/53 ORPTE lists these cars as: MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. No other cars on this ORPTE are listed as MR- Postal storage. All of the numbers you have listed are noted as: BE- Baggage-Express-steel. Therefore, I deduced that MS60 was a distinct class. > As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division > train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent > swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not > identified as such there. "Permanent swinging mail stanchions" are the hooks attached to the cars at the doors for mail pickup. I think they were used on RPO's, not on Mail-Storage cars. > In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, > #13 alone calls for 15 MS