From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:09:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cedco in June Has anyone read the caption of the Cedco PRR calendar for June? It claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct. But it is clearly all Congo Budd equipment! AFAIK these cars never ran on the Admiral. The Admiral had no use for that many day coaches. At least 6 are show fwd of the Budd Diner. Am I imagining things or is this a picture of the Morning Congressional in 1953 when it still ran with all new purpose-built Budd equipment? I claim the Morning Congo because of the long shadows leaning West at Frankford Junction with the train Northbound. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:09:38 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Cedco in June Has anyone read the caption of the Cedco PRR calendar for June? It claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct. But it is clearly all Congo Budd equipment! AFAIK these cars never ran on the Admiral. The Admiral had no use for that many day coaches. At least 6 are show fwd of the Budd Diner. Am I imagining things or is this a picture of the Morning Congressional in 1953 when it still ran with all new purpose-built Budd equipment? I claim the Morning Congo because of the long shadows leaning West at Frankford Junction with the train Northbound. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:04:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? From: Jerry Britton Since the downtown Philadelphia offices were in the heart of the Philadelphia Terminal Division, one cannot assume that the Philadelphia Division offices were also located there. So, where were they located... Harrisburg maybe? I know the PRR had some office buildings adjacent to the passenger station. One was used as a crew's barracks, but I do not know of the use of the others. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:24:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? In a message dated 6/1/01 11:10:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > So, where were they located. When I was on the Phila. Div., they were in 30th Street Station, although I don't remember which floor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:50:46 -0400 List: And the Phila. Regional Sales Office in 30th Street had the original Grif Teller Calendar Painting of the S1. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? > In a message dated 6/1/01 11:10:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > So, where were they located. > > When I was on the Phila. Div., they were in 30th Street Station, although I > don't remember which floor. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:55:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)Dallee Electronics >Group, > >Has anyone used the sound card from Dallee electronics for the T1? If so how >good is it? Etc. > >Thanks in advance > >Sam Vastano Sam, Dallee is like Bowser...years behind the times and totally unwilling to admit it. That said, the T-1 card is the best on the market (OK the ONLY one on the market). Since I run DCC, I've looked at it from that standpoint. Here are the problems, especially when compared to soundtraxx: 1) Its HUGE - just barely fits in an HO T-1 tender 2) Circuitry is such that only one sound plays at a time...blow the wistle while the bell is ringing, and the bell cuts out (and so does the chuff) 3) Cost - well, not a problem, but by the time you add a decoder, its about equal to soundtraxx, but inferior in design/sound. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:49:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers From: Jerry Britton A few months ago, the exclusive distribution agreement between Rivarossi and Model Expo ceased and all unsold inventories were returned to Italy (according to Model Expo). Yesterday, Walthers announced that it had entered into a new exclusive distributorship agreement with Rivarossi. Sometime this summer, both HO and N Rivarossi products should become available again. Rivarossi offers an extensive line of PRR GG-1's and the S-2 switcher. In addition, a few of the passenger cars are PRR prototypic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:29:35 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified. Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:01:14 -0700 From: Paul Catapano Subject: Car Weight Wouldn't it be better to have a uniform weight for cars of a given length (40'ers weight so much and 50'ers weight so much) to simplify making a weight profile for each train as it leaves your yard (NMRA weight RP's). So you could more easily assign motive power and helpers if needed? Cars with different weight but being of the same length might complicate this issue, ASSuming this is an issue to any of you. Paul Catapano Burbank, Ca. Paul- Not sure I understand your question. That is the way it works. I use a basic weight of 1 oz. plus 1/2 oz. per inch of car length. Thus, all 40' cars would weigh the same. This has been the standard for most of my 40+ years in this hobby. Check NMRA standards for more info. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:32:45 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified. Paul Catapano wrote: > Naturally I deleted all prior messages so I can't figure what the hell I > was responding to, but I thought I understood someone to say that they > ran their cars at ANY weight as long as the cars exhibited good running > characteristics. I took them to imply that if the car tracked good at > two oz's they ran it along with cars of the same length that might weigh > 4 oz's. > > Paul Catapano > Burbank, Ca. Most cars will run fine at "out of box" weight if they are running alone or with a few cars of the same weight. Problems can occur when you have a long train of say 15 cars. The heavier cars have a tendency to derail the lighter cars, especially on curves. The xtra weight seems to help a lot. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed Delray Beach, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:48:05 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers Jerry:

Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What about new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then forgotten? (Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm looking for are for a PRR loco).

Thanks,

Jeff Warner

Jerry Britton wrote:
A few months ago, the exclusive distribution agreement between Rivarossi and
Model Expo ceased and all unsold inventories were returned to Italy
(according to Model Expo).

Yesterday, Walthers announced that it had entered into a new exclusive
distributorship agreement with Rivarossi.

Sometime this summer, both HO and N Rivarossi products should become
available again.

Rivarossi offers an extensive line of PRR GG-1's and the S-2 switcher. In
addition, a few of the passenger cars are PRR prototypic.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    

On 6/1/01 3:48 PM, Jeff Warner (jwarner@ptd.net) wrote:

> Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What about
> new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then forgotten?
> (Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm
> looking for are for a PRR loco).
> 
Probably a safe bet that parts will be available as well, though the press
release did not specifically say so. Walthers already carries a ton of
parts; why not those from Rivarossi?

Can't comment on the C&O loco.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:02:40 -0400 

Jeff, Jerry, and the gang:
 
If Rivarossi does come out the the C&O Allegheny, that may be a good sign
for PRR fans. Rivarossi has not come out with a new steam loco for some time
and the Allegheny may be the first of several new steam engines. Who knows
an M-1, J-1 or a T-1 would be prime candidates in super-detailed plastic.
 
Ted Andrews

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Warner [mailto:jwarner@ptd.net]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:48 PM
To: Jerry Britton
Cc: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers


Jerry:

Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What about
new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then forgotten?
(Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm
looking for are for a PRR loco).

Thanks,

Jeff Warner

Jerry Britton wrote:


A few months ago, the exclusive distribution agreement between Rivarossi and
Model Expo ceased and all unsold inventories were returned to Italy
(according to Model Expo).

Yesterday, Walthers announced that it had entered into a new exclusive
distributorship agreement with Rivarossi.

Sometime this summer, both HO and N Rivarossi products should become
available again.

Rivarossi offers an extensive line of PRR GG-1's and the S-2 switcher. In
addition, a few of the passenger cars are PRR prototypic.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS    jerry@pennsyrr.com
 
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:18:53 -0400

Jerry and list:

I just asked Walthers and got a reply from Tom Schmidt that the "details of
the agreement are still being worked out" and the details will be posted on
Walther's website when they become available. See www.trains.com for
comments re: the C&O Allegheny and its working butterfly firebox doors!?

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Britton" 
To: "Jeff Warner" 
Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers


> On 6/1/01 3:48 PM, Jeff Warner (jwarner@ptd.net) wrote:
>
> > Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What
about
> > new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then
forgotten?
> > (Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm
> > looking for are for a PRR loco).
> >
> Probably a safe bet that parts will be available as well, though the press
> release did not specifically say so. Walthers already carries a ton of
> parts; why not those from Rivarossi?
>
> Can't comment on the C&O loco.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:04:15 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cedco in June

Andy & List,
Sure lools like The Congrestional to me. . . and I do believe your're correct 
in guessing that its the AM Congo by the looks of those tell tale long 
shadows.
But hey ! ! With Cedco. . . we're lucky they even identified the fact that 
there 
are trains in the picture ! ! We're also lucky that this is one of the 
pictures they 
haven't used at least three or four times before in past Pennsy calendars ! ! 
!
I'm sorry. . . I'll stop now and put a way the soap box.
Jon S.


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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joseph Andrews 
Subject: [PRR] cat pan

While sitting around with some friends the other
evening, we got to talking about how everyone has
their own special vocabulary. I mentioned that when
most people hear the words "cat" and "pan" they think
of a litter box for a pet. I, on the other hand, think
"catenary" and "pantograph". These terms then had to
be explained to our company. My friend who is totally
non-railroad oriented (but otherwise pretty
intelligent) then asked a question that I had never
really thought about. What do they use to lubricate
the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
time?
I'm sure this has a simple answer but as I said, I
never really gave it any thought.
Joe

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From: bobsin@nac.net
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:08:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] cat pan

Joseph asked about wear in pantographs; aren't some (all?) of the 
pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and 
replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire 
would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the 
wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent 
nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires 
newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain 
weathered green.)


John Bobsin




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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:28:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers
From: Fred G Rea 

Will Walthers be willing to sell individual passenger cars?  I am
revolted at the idea of having to buy a set with a PRR Vistadome to get a
baggage, coach, or diner.

The vista dome proves a point.  They will have a lot of PRR stuff, if you
accept just PRR paint jobs or lettering on every thing they offer.  At
least Bachman started with PRR but then offered cross dressed decor for
other roads.  I am suprised there has not been a War Bonnet GG1 marketed.
 Even worse, they would probably sell! 

An insult to any PRR fan 

Fred Rea
________________________________________________________________
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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:03:11 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers

In a message dated 6/2/01 7:29:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes:

<< I am suprised there has not been a War Bonnet GG1 marketed.
  Even worse, they would probably sell!  >>

They did market a Milwaukee Road little joe paint scheme through IHC !  And 
yes, it did sell ! ! ! 
Jon S.

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From: Mark Bej 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Signals/ PRR-CB&Q Run Through
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 101 12:34:15 -0400 (EDT)

David Hopson scribit:
> 
> Hello List, 
>     I was just watching a video tape of the PRR in the 1960s and I saw
> something in the footage that I never notice before. It shows a CB&Q
> GP30 leading a PRR freight headed east at Valparaso on the mainline.
>     Can someone tell me how this is possible? I thought PRR units must
> lead off-road power because of the cab signals. I even slowed down the
> tape to see if maybe there was a PRR signal box under the engineer's
> front window. Anyone know about this?
>       The tape is(Green Frog) "Penn Central" Vol.1-Tape One.
> Don't let the name fool you. Lots of pre merger PRR shots. 

Dave,
the Fort Wayne main did not have cab signals.

(I'm making a 400-plus mile generalization; if there were snippets that
did that I'm missing, someone please let me know.)

Cab signals extended west on the _Panhandle_ as far as Indianapolis (!),
and all of this was, of course, "superfluous" to Conrail.

-- 
Mark

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:07:00 -0400

Zak:

Re: Your "can of worms", I think which is closer to PRR depends on which
specific car you are talking about and in what scale. For example, the
Rivarossi smooth side "tail car" in both HO and N is an almost exact replica
of the "Mountain View and "Tower View" as used on the "Broadway Limited".
The Bachmann Spectrum coach in HO is an excellent replica of a PRR P70, and
the combine is definitely PRR as well. In N scale, the Bachmann cars have no
prototype, but Model Power (from Lima) imports models of PRR P70's and
combines. But, the Model Power P70 in N looks nothing like the Bachmann P70
in HO, you say.  They are separated by about 30 years, with the MP car
representing the P70 as built and Bachmann as it appeared post-WW II.

Here is where the four and six wheel trucks enter the picture. The
P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized.

Rivarossi's cars all represent specific prototypes, but not all from the
same builder or railroad.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Zak" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi cars


> Re Mr. Rea's mail about the subject cars, I don't know how Walther's plans
> to sell them, but Rivarossi does make unpainted '20 heavyweight and '30
> lightweight cars.
> I know 'cause I got a bunch of 'em about two years ago from the Model Expo
> folks when they were on sale.
>
> Question (and I hope this doesn't open a can of worms):  which are
actually
> more prototypical cars for the PRR, the Rivarossi or the Bachmann?  I seem
> to remember reading somewhere that the PRR used 4-wheel trucks instead of
> 6-wheel.  Could someone give me some guidance on this?
>
> Zak
>
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: "Zak" 
Subject: [PRR] Passenger cars
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:28:56 -0400

Gregg,

Many thanks for your help.  I've got a batch of unpainted HO Riv '30 cars
that I want to make a 'static' - kinda like on the mantle - display of, and
I want to get it somewhere near right.
Have a diner, a couple of coach cars, a sleeper, and others.
Am perusing the Walthers site now for parts for my totally illegal [ ;-) ]
F7A passenger to go with it.
Hey...if Mantua can do it, I can, too!  Chuckle, chuckle, guffaw.

Zak


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Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:52:12 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger cars

It is rather interesting to read Blardone's article on wartime
conversions in the new Keystone to see how manye "conventional" Pullmans
were used by the PRR. The pictures are excellent. It surely widens the
scope of what is prototypical especially those who model late 40's to
early 60's.It widens the scope of applicability for non-P-70 cars.(Even
some NYC).

Zak wrote:
> 
> Gregg,
> 
> Many thanks for your help.  I've got a batch of unpainted HO Riv '30 cars
> that I want to make a 'static' - kinda like on the mantle - display of, and
> I want to get it somewhere near right.
> Have a diner, a couple of coach cars, a sleeper, and others.
> Am perusing the Walthers site now for parts for my totally illegal [ ;-) ]
> F7A passenger to go with it.
> Hey...if Mantua can do it, I can, too!  Chuckle, chuckle, guffaw.
> 
> Zak
> 
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> "listserv@dsop.com".

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:26:42 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Cedco in June


--part1_f5.ac2534c.284aa602_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:13:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
asmiller@mitre.org writes:


> It
> claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct.  But it is
> clearly all Congo Budd equipment!        
> 
Andy, you beat me to it.  No way that equipment would have been on
the Admiral on that date (maybe ever).  At first I thought Cedco might
have gotten his numbers mixed up, inadvertently dropping the "1" from the 
Congressional's number and thereby getting the Admiral's number.  
But I looked them up, and they're totally different.
  
   But, while I had the December 1952 Guide out, I looked at schedules.
At the time, the eastward Admiral left North Phila at 10:16am, and the
Morning Cong close behind him, at 10:27am.  Now we're getting somewhere!
     My scenario:  the photographer was out there, armed with only a public
TT .  He's standing there at Shore, expecting the Admiral.  The Admiral's a
few minutes late and they put the Congressional ahead of him. Voila!
"Admiral" gets written on back of the photograph.  Photographer
in 1953 didn't know any better, and, 47 years later, how is Cedco
supposed to know it's wrong?

     He made a similar goof on last year's calendar (can't remember
exactly what it was now) but I like his PRR calendars anyway!

Rich Copeland    
Jamison, PA
 

--part1_f5.ac2534c.284aa602_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:13:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 

asmiller@mitre.org writes:





It

claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct.  But it is

clearly all Congo Budd equipment!        



Andy, you beat me to it.  No way that equipment would have been on

the Admiral on that date (maybe ever).  At first I thought Cedco might

have gotten his numbers mixed up, inadvertently dropping the "1" from the 

Congressional's number and thereby getting the Admiral's number.  

But I looked them up, and they're totally different.

  

   But, while I had the December 1952 Guide out, I looked at schedules.

At the time, the eastward Admiral left North Phila at 10:16am, and the

Morning Cong close behind him, at 10:27am.  Now we're getting somewhere!

     My scenario:  the photographer was out there, armed with only a public

TT .  He's standing there at Shore, expecting the Admiral.  The Admiral's a

few minutes late and they put the Congressional ahead of him. Voila!

"Admiral" gets written on back of the photograph.  Photographer

in 1953 didn't know any better, and, 47 years later, how is Cedco

supposed to know it's wrong?



     He made a similar goof on last year's calendar (can't remember

exactly what it was now) but I like his PRR calendars anyway!



Rich Copeland    

Jamison, PA

 

--part1_f5.ac2534c.284aa602_boundary--

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:26:42 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Cedco in June

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:13:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
asmiller@mitre.org writes:


> It
> claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct.  But it is
> clearly all Congo Budd equipment!        
> 
Andy, you beat me to it.  No way that equipment would have been on
the Admiral on that date (maybe ever).  At first I thought Cedco might
have gotten his numbers mixed up, inadvertently dropping the "1" from the 
Congressional's number and thereby getting the Admiral's number.  
But I looked them up, and they're totally different.
  
   But, while I had the December 1952 Guide out, I looked at schedules.
At the time, the eastward Admiral left North Phila at 10:16am, and the
Morning Cong close behind him, at 10:27am.  Now we're getting somewhere!
     My scenario:  the photographer was out there, armed with only a public
TT .  He's standing there at Shore, expecting the Admiral.  The Admiral's a
few minutes late and they put the Congressional ahead of him. Voila!
"Admiral" gets written on back of the photograph.  Photographer
in 1953 didn't know any better, and, 47 years later, how is Cedco
supposed to know it's wrong?

     He made a similar goof on last year's calendar (can't remember
exactly what it was now) but I like his PRR calendars anyway!

Rich Copeland    
Jamison, PA
 


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:01:27 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers

In a message dated 6/2/01 9:29:00 AM Central Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes (re warbonnet GG1's):

<< Even worse, they would probably sell! >>

Take the probably out.

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:25:42 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

In a message dated 6/2/01 1:09:15 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net 
writes:

<<  The
 P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
 four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized. >>

I am not aware of any P70's built with six-wheel trucks, but I never say 
never.  The PB70's and the D78 diners ( also by Bachmann) had six-wheel 
trucks. You may be confusing the conversion of the modernized P70's to 
Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks from the Pennsy 4-wheel truck style(which I am 
too tired to look up) .  The Bachmann P70's have the Pennsy truck and the ECW 
kits for the P70FAR have the Commonwealth truck. Both prototypical.The 
Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman heavyweight, as far as it goes, represents the most 
common Pullman on the Pennsy as well as other roads. Their other HW Pullman 
in PRR livery is fictional.

In addition to the observation, the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is 
acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids car (though I can never quite find the exact 
window arrangement in plans) and the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938 
Creek car with the skirts removed as they were after WWII.  I  (incorrectly) 
use it to represent a 1948 Creek car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a 
chance to replace it ( I will probably pick the Cedar Creek as the new car to 
model , appropriate for our club, the Cedar Creek Central). The ECW 4-4-2 
lightweight can be used to model  a Pennsy 1938  Imperial car. 

Bob Zoeller

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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:23:32 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Vistadomes?

    Pennsy Vistadomes? 
    RailKing & Lionel offer them in 3 rail. 
    If it bothers you - don't buy it!
    Actually, it's usually the guys who like other roads who usually have to 
"Grin and bear it" MTH Trains offers Pennsy Passenger cars painted in almost 
everybody elses road name; Lionel offers a nice PRR E-6 (With an oval 
builder's plate) lettered B&O or ATSF!
    As a true SPF, I've had more than one "Ooopsey" in my life. When I first 
started building HO scale models, I applied Model Airplane building 
techniques to produce an absolutely gorgeous tar paper roof on an old "Red 
Ball" R-50b, only to learn that it was an all steel car.
    I later painstakingly lettered a Single Sheathed box car "WAG" for the 
"Sole Leather Line" - only to learn that the car - which I had photographed - 
was far to new for my steam locos. (Same is true of the Buffalo Creek and 
Gauley - with that big "Sack-O-Wheat" herald)
    When I started in "O" scale I got a great deal on a Max Gray brass  
"A.A.R. box car" I thought it was an X-29; spent years trying to match it to 
a photo - finally painted and decaled it "Beano" and decided not to worry 
about it.
    Fairly recently, old enough to know better, I had a weak "SPF" moment at 
a train show: I bought a 2 bay Weaver "O" scale offset side hopper, lettered 
PRR, even though I'd already read "the book of Teichmoeller" (in installment 
form - before it was issued as a book) - and knew that this was a "never was" 
car for the PRR - (It's now in "basic black" and sports a very large Erie 
Diamond)
    Doctors bury their mistakes - we can just repaint them; each of us has 
their own level of tolerance.
    I don't own a dome car - because, I think, it would be to new for my 
steamers, but I now own a gorgeous extruded aluminum model of the "Silver 
Rapids" Pennsy's contribution to the California Zephyr. 
    I'm not sure how correct it is - I really don't want to know; I've liked 
the car, ever since I first saw the original 35, or so years ago.

Dick Ross,
Cleveland.

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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:25:54 -0400

;-)  I REALLY meant I didn't want to open a can of worms on this, but thanks
for the ino.

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars


> In a message dated 6/2/01 1:09:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
mahlkov@gtcom.net
> writes:
>
> <<  The
>  P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
>  four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized. >>
>
> I am not aware of any P70's built with six-wheel trucks, but I never say
> never.  The PB70's and the D78 diners ( also by Bachmann) had six-wheel
> trucks. You may be confusing the conversion of the modernized P70's to
> Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks from the Pennsy 4-wheel truck style(which I am
> too tired to look up) .  The Bachmann P70's have the Pennsy truck and the
ECW
> kits for the P70FAR have the Commonwealth truck. Both prototypical.The
> Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman heavyweight, as far as it goes, represents the most
> common Pullman on the Pennsy as well as other roads. Their other HW
Pullman
> in PRR livery is fictional.
>
> In addition to the observation, the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is
> acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids car (though I can never quite find the
exact
> window arrangement in plans) and the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938
> Creek car with the skirts removed as they were after WWII.  I
(incorrectly)
> use it to represent a 1948 Creek car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a
> chance to replace it ( I will probably pick the Cedar Creek as the new car
to
> model , appropriate for our club, the Cedar Creek Central). The ECW 4-4-2
> lightweight can be used to model  a Pennsy 1938  Imperial car.
>
> Bob Zoeller
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>


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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:59:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Derrick J Brashear 
Subject: [PRR] some PRR documents available, more to come...

If you look at
http://prr.dementia.org/documents
you will find a CT290 and a 1932 Williamsport Division ETT in PDF form.
I have quite a few more ETTs to follow, as well as 2 rule books, and 2
track charts I recently picked up covering a nice chunk of Lines West
territory. 

I would like some comments on 2 things (by private email, please):

-How are the PDFs for viewing? I've been experimenting with various
optimizations for both space and quality, and the balance these 2
documents have I think is reasonable, but I have rasters I can try to
retune and regenerate the PDFs if necessary. The CT290 supercedes an
earlier PDF of same I made available as this one is better cropped and
optimized. (The old one can be found at ftp://ftp.dementia.org/pub/prr)

-What format do people think is reasonable for track charts? Obviously
they're long strips, which is pretty impractical for most if not all
software viewing solutions. Suggestions appreciated.

Currently these are available only via this interface; I may explore some
way of optimizing for people with low-bandwidth network links after
there's more material there.

-D



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Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 08:49:44 -0400
From: Stephen Bartlett 
Subject: [PRR] Re: cat pan

I can add a bit about cat and pans, but specific to the 600 volt DC cat
on the Niagara Junction Ry.  During my NY Central days I spent a lot of
time in Niagara Falls on EE work for the NJ, which was partly owned by
the Central.  The pans had a load of graphite grease in a recess between
the two contact surfaces.  All the double-shoe "model" pans I have seen
have an open space between the shoes, but these were solid, so there was
a place to apply the graphite.
  
	I also learned that the company had decided that their pan size was
optimal:  With a smaller shoe size, electrical faults tended to burn up
the shoes, and with larger shoes, faults tended more to burn through the
wire.  A lot of the NJ's operations were close to rocking speed, which
tended to even out any groove wear.  

	I _think_ the cat on the NE Corridor has a bit of side-to-side
alignment, which will also spread the wear.

Steve Bartlett
		
PRR-Talk wrote:
> 

> Subject: cat pan
> From: "Joseph Andrews" 
> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
> 
> While sitting around with some friends the other
> evening, we got to talking about how everyone has
> their own special vocabulary. I mentioned that when
> most people hear the words "cat" and "pan" they think
> of a litter box for a pet. I, on the other hand, think
> "catenary" and "pantograph". These terms then had to
> be explained to our company. My friend who is totally
> non-railroad oriented (but otherwise pretty
> intelligent) then asked a question that I had never
> really thought about. What do they use to lubricate
> the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
> come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
> time?
> I'm sure this has a simple answer but as I said, I
> never really gave it any thought.
> Joe
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: [PRR] cat pan
> From: 
> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:08:12 -0400
> 
> Joseph asked about wear in pantographs; aren't some (all?) of the
> pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and
> replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire
> would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the
> wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent
> nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires
> newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain
> weathered green.)
> 
> John Bobsin
>



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Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 09:06:55 -0400
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" 
Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified.

Hey Work crews:

I'm still digging up the History on the yards etc in Columbia Pa,  a
little
hard , because I;m in SC..

But the columbia Historic Preservation Society has a web page and some
old
RR people on the staff, and 120 yrs of old newpapers and picture on
Microfilm...

The Page is www.columbiahistoric.rtide.com/RAILROAD.htm...  I belive I
have
located the person who has all the historic files from the RR,  my
brother
lives in Columbia and will contact him... I 'm willing to fly there and
copy
any thing they let me and load it to a web site or CD...


Thomas-
I also model the C & PD and Columbia. However, the page you list for the

Historic Society does not seem to work now. Do you know of the correct
page?
I would greatly appreciate a response.
Thanks.
Eddie

Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling the C&PD in HO



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:24:51 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

In a message dated 6/2/01 5:32:57 PM Central Daylight Time, I wrote:

<< Their  (Rivarossi) other HW Pullman 
 in PRR livery is fictional. >>

As several have pointed out, I had a senior moment.  I forgot the 10 section 
car was Bachmann. Still fictional, just a different maker.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:39:39 -0400
Subject: [PRR] PRR Vista domes
From: Fred G Rea 

I started a thread with my Rivarossi varnish rant.  Ok, I accept the "if
you don't like it, don't buy it" comment.  My original point was offering
the cars only in sets.  This forces me to buy it if I want some of the
more appropriate cars.

Also, I have to admit, the rest of  "set A", the baggage, coach & diner
are probably not "true" PRR either.  The are a heck of a lot closer to
the mark however.

As for tarpaper on your R50b roof.  That was an honest mistake by a
person learning our hobby, not a major manufacturer.  I am sure they know
better.  They could not have come up with there RPO and Obs dies without
plenty of PRR advice.  Then someone in marketing says two things.  First,
"Hey lets do all the cars in all the road names".  Second, "Hey some of
these don't sell too well, lets put them in sets so they have to buy the
loosers to get what they want".

Now to divert the issue to my other big peeve:  I still remember when I
bought an Athern heavy weight pullman, took it home and sat down to do a
nice interior in it. Whoa!  The sides are all messed up. I don't mind
that it was only 8 sections, we all do selective compression.  But,
making both the aisle windows on both sides at the same ends and the
restroom windows the same is the pits.  Some one designing it never rode
or saw plans for a 12-1 Pullman.  Now don't say that 12-1s were a long
time ago.  I bought the car in 1960.  Anyone old enough to work on the
design of that model could have, and should have, been clued in.  The big
problem, that car is still being made from those dies 41 years later!

Fred Rea


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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:15:44 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

Bob,

The diagrams for the 10-6 are on Rob's website and I am sure you meant to say 
the Duplex car is a representation of the "BROOK" series cars, correct and we 
all know which Brook series car is the best to model ... #^)

Greg Martin 

Bob wrote:
<< the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids 
car (though I can never quite find the exact window arrangement in plans) and 
the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938 Creek car with the skirts removed as 
they were after W.W.II.  I  (incorrectly) use it to represent a 1948 Creek 
car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a chance to replace it (I will probably 
pick the Cedar Creek as the new car to model, appropriate for our club, the 
Cedar Creek Central). >>

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:38:53 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Vista domes

In a message dated 6/3/01 6:37:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes:

<< Some one designing it never rode
 or saw plans for a 12-1 Pullman.  Now don't say that 12-1s were a long
 time ago.  I bought the car in 1960.  Anyone old enough to work on the
 design of that model could have, and should have, been clued in.  The big
 problem, that car is still being made from those dies 41 years later!
  >>

Weather they rode the great Pullman Fleat or not. . . or even knew what a 
Pullman was.  I'm hear to tell you. From past experience at working at a 
major manufacturer of modell railroad equipment. The bottom line is that
both sides where made the same to save on the high costs of tool and die
work.
Jon S.

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:38:53 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Vista domes

In a message dated 6/3/01 6:37:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes:

<< Some one designing it never rode
 or saw plans for a 12-1 Pullman.  Now don't say that 12-1s were a long
 time ago.  I bought the car in 1960.  Anyone old enough to work on the
 design of that model could have, and should have, been clued in.  The big
 problem, that car is still being made from those dies 41 years later!
  >>

Weather they rode the great Pullman Fleat or not. . . or even knew what a 
Pullman was.  I'm hear to tell you. From past experience at working at a 
major manufacturer of modell railroad equipment. The bottom line is that
both sides where made the same to save on the high costs of tool and die
work.
Jon S.

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:47:23 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

Bob and all,

First Bob writes: I wrote:
 
<>

The HW Duplex sleeper was representative of two cars in one class, their 
names were Nocturne and Eventide...  Both obscure but definitely Pennsy and I 
think all SPF's should have at least one...  3^)
 
Then Bob writes this:
<>

Not entirely true, yes a different car from a different maker but not a 
fictional car. It, just as with the Nocturne/Eventide it represents an 
obscure car.  There was one in the General Pullman Pool so ... coulda 
happened ... mighta happened... 

There was talk early on about how heavy the tooling was and how the windows 
were too big, but having taken a micrometer to it and the Rivarossi car at 
the same time side by side I will tell you that if the tooling on the 
Rivarossi cars is absolutely dead on correct then the Bachmann car's windows 
are only 2+ inches too tall and less than 11/2 inches too wide out to out ... 
or less and this might be a bit over stated.  I have a 3 inch rule in HO 
Scale ... if it is three inches ore less in HO Scale I figure it's close 
enough.  Believe me the Rivarossi 12-1 has more errors with it to make me 
mistrust their tooling than I care to mention, so if you want to add the 
Bachmann to your Pennsy passenger car as a "stand-in" Pullman protection car 
who an I to speak out against you as long as it is next to either the 
Nocturne or the Eventide ... catch my drift?  3^)

Greg Martin 
 
 Bob Zoeller
 >>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 11:18:25 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Accounting Division Maps
From: Jerry Britton 

Folks, yet another plea...

Somebody out of our 480 subscribers must have a set of Accounting Division
Maps. These were created for each of the divisional reorgs. I am looking for
either the early 1950's version or the 1956 version...but I need a full set.

I only need to borrow them, for less than a week, for scanning.

They would then be posted in the Maps section of Keystone Crossings for all
to access, with credit to the donor, but more importantly, I need them for
the PRR Virtual Layout. I have an excellent Lines West layout to plot on the
maps, but I am missing the needed maps!

Please contact me off-list if you can help.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Vistadomes?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:55:22 -0400

Long time ago, before the dawn of civilization, I (with the help of some
well meaning parents) purchased an Athearn DD40 in PRR.  Now we all know
about the great DD40 on PRR, cruises the Middle division with mile long
trains, and/or replaces two SD40s on the Curve, it has even been know to
move mountains on Lines West!
But wait, the PRR was running out of money and that great DD40 fleet just
never came about.   How lucky for me that the Lancaster & Atlantic RR bought
one for helper service out of Columbia.  Since the L&A is a PRR subsidiary,
everything is lettered PRR.  The same story works great for those Lima 1200
hp switchers, PS1 boxcars, offset side hoppers, and a host of other things.
However, I must draw the line at Vistadomes.  They would get tangled in the
cat work and besides they wouldn't look to good in back of my ABBA set of
lgle (that's lime green locomotive....)FP7s


Cos

Cos Communications, Inc.
Home Page
Rail Road Pages
    Fairly recently, old enough to know better, I had a weak "SPF" moment at
a train show: I bought a 2 bay Weaver "O" scale offset side hopper, lettered
PRR, even though I'd already read "the book of Teichmoeller" (in installment
form - before it was issued as a book) - and knew that this was a "never
was"
car for the PRR - (It's now in "basic black" and sports a very large Erie
Diamond)
    Doctors bury their mistakes - we can just repaint them; each of us has
their own level of tolerance.
    I don't own a dome car - because, I think, it would be to new for my
steamers, but I now own a gorgeous extruded aluminum model of the "Silver
Rapids" Pennsy's contribution to the California Zephyr.
    I'm not sure how correct it is - I really don't want to know; I've liked
the car, ever since I first saw the original 35, or so years ago.

Dick Ross,
Cleveland.



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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:47:47 -0400

Regarding the painting of the Strasburg's GP30, Jerry propsed...

>
>Dare I suggest a third and unusual option:
>
>3. One side in Conrail Blue and the other side in PRR DGLE.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------


Although it would present two opportunities, what do other photographers say
about the inherent challenge that would also be created by such a move?






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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:56:54 -0400

Gary Mittner has a good point...


Jerry,
There is a 3rd and 4th option too! How
about a Penn Central? No PC locos there either.


There has been a dramatic increase over the past year or two in modeling
PENN CENTRAL.  Perhaps that translates into prototype interest as well.


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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:05:38 -0400

Bennett Levin wrote...



>I say Conrail BLUE!.
>
>Conrail was a part of our heritage (especially in Pennsylvania) that we
>can all reflect upon with pride. Their management was responsive to the
>railfan community, and they generally took pride in everything they did.
>They were good citizens in this state and in the communities that they
>served. >


Case closed.  Bennett is correct.  Particularly when you contrast his
analysis of Conrail with the way the Norfolk Southern has treated
Pennsylvania.  Just ask anybody in Altoona!

We need to recognize and promote CONRAIL.  Painting the engine in Conrail
Blue is a fitting tribute to a fine railroad.



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Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:37:21 -0400
From: davep 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: cat pan

Stephen Bartlett wrote:
 
> I can add a bit about cat and pans, but specific to the 600 volt DC cat
> on the Niagara Junction Ry.  During my NY Central days I spent a lot of
> time in Niagara Falls on EE work for the NJ, which was partly owned by
> the Central.  The pans had a load of graphite grease in a recess between
> the two contact surfaces.  All the double-shoe "model" pans I have seen
> have an open space between the shoes, but these were solid, so there was
> a place to apply the graphite.
 
	My recollection is that IN GENERAL, DC and LV operations tended
	towards graphite rub strips.

>         I _think_ the cat on the NE Corridor has a bit of side-to-side
> alignment, which will also spread the wear.

	Yes on the new section, less so on the original.
 
> > Subject: cat pan
> > From: "Joseph Andrews" 
> > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)

> > While sitting around with some friends the other
> > evening, we got to talking about how everyone has
> > their own special vocabulary. I mentioned that when
> > most people hear the words "cat" and "pan" they think
> > of a litter box for a pet. I, on the other hand, think
> > "catenary" and "pantograph". These terms then had to
> > be explained to our company. My friend who is totally
> > non-railroad oriented (but otherwise pretty
> > intelligent) then asked a question that I had never
> > really thought about. What do they use to lubricate
> > the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
> > come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
> > time?

	My recollection is that HV AC lines tend towards metallic
	contact shoes.  They are replaced regularly.

> > I'm sure this has a simple answer but as I said, I
> > never really gave it any thought.
> > Joe

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Subject: Re: [PRR] cat pan
> > From: 
> > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:08:12 -0400

> > Joseph asked about wear in pantographs; aren't some (all?) of the
> > pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and
> > replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire
> > would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the
> > wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent
> > nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires
> > newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain
> > weathered green.)

	Again, my recollection is that contact wire life is quite long.
	It is a trick bronze alloy (generally).  Contact surfaces are
	made softer (in relative terms) so THEY wear, as they can be
	easily replaced..

	best
	dwp

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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 20:48:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Vista domes and the Athern Pullman
From: Fred G Rea 

Jon:

I am sure there may have been a cost motive.  However, the way they made
it the two sides are different.  One has the frosted windows on the left,
the other on the right. 

To be more correct, put them always on the left end as you face the
sides.  Then the restrooms would be at opposite ends of the car.  They
made both at the same end.

Fred
________________________________________________________________
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Date: 03 Jun 2001 23:10:33 -0400
From: Doug Drew 
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/03/01

         Reply to:   RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/03/01
"Joseph Andrews" 
wrote:

What do they use to lubricate
the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
time?

and From: John Bobsin 
wrote:
 aren't some (all?) of the pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain weathered green.)


-- Catenary wire was strung so that the wire would not consistently contact a pantograph in a single area (which would soon groove the pantograph contact surface), but rather to slide back and forth across the surface of the pan as the locomotive or MU car moved. You can see this phenomenon if you ride in the front of an MU car under wires, stand at the front door's window and look up as you are moving -- you can see the cat wires appear to zig-zag back and forth as you go forward.

-- As far as graphite being used in pantographs, I would imagine the pantograph contact surfaces were made of a specially-hardened steel. The combination of copper wire and steel pan may have functioned somewhat like a brass journal and a steel axle, though without the oil lubricant. Point of contact was constantly changing and was air-cooled. If anything, the graphite inserts -- if they existed -- may have functioned as some sort of dry lubricant.

Anybody have shots of GG-1's, P5a's or MP54's from above, to confirm it one way or the other?

Flame on...
Doug Drew


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:44:42 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

Bob,

While I too have learned to "never say 'never'" with re to the PRR, I
concur that the P-70s "never" had 6-wheel trucks.

Having diplomatically begun by agreeing with you, let me now pick two
nits ;-)

1) I believe that the P70FARs never had "Commonwealth" trucks.  They
were a prewar conversion. That piece of conversion technology did not
occur until after WWII, on the P70FBRs.   ECW makes nice kits of each
and offers each with either kind of truck.  I have always equipped my
FARs with PRR roller bearing and my FBRs with Commonwealth trucks.

2)  You are again right that the prewar and postwar streamlined duplex
sleepers were different.  The bedroom windows were different, and the
vestibule was on the other end. But the prewar streamlined duplex
sleepers were M BROOK cars, not C CREEK cars.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

BTW What is the "other" HW pullman which is fictional in PRR livery?
==================================================
Bobspf@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/2/01 1:09:15 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net
> writes:
> 
> <<  The
>  P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
>  four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized. >>
> 
> I am not aware of any P70's built with six-wheel trucks, but I never say
> never.  The PB70's and the D78 diners ( also by Bachmann) had six-wheel
> trucks. You may be confusing the conversion of the modernized P70's to
> Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks from the Pennsy 4-wheel truck style(which I am
> too tired to look up) .  The Bachmann P70's have the Pennsy truck and the ECW
> kits for the P70FAR have the Commonwealth truck. Both prototypical.The
> Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman heavyweight, as far as it goes, represents the most
> common Pullman on the Pennsy as well as other roads. Their other HW Pullman
> in PRR livery is fictional.
> 
> In addition to the observation, the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is
> acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids car (though I can never quite find the exact
> window arrangement in plans) and the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938
> Creek car with the skirts removed as they were after WWII.  I  (incorrectly)
> use it to represent a 1948 Creek car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a
> chance to replace it ( I will probably pick the Cedar Creek as the new car to
> model , appropriate for our club, the Cedar Creek Central). The ECW 4-4-2
> lightweight can be used to model  a Pennsy 1938  Imperial car.
> 
> Bob Zoeller


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:18:12 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

However, in Southern livery, that car could be seen on the Birmingham
Special running on the corridor to NY.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/2/01 5:32:57 PM Central Daylight Time, I wrote:
> 
> << Their  (Rivarossi) other HW Pullman
>  in PRR livery is fictional. >>
> 
> As several have pointed out, I had a senior moment.  I forgot the 10 section
> car was Bachmann. Still fictional, just a different maker.
> 
> Bob Zoeller


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:29:52 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Vistadomes?


"Wayne S. Betty (The Cos)" wrote (in part):
. . . 
> However, I must draw the line at Vistadomes.  They would get tangled in the
> cat work and besides they wouldn't look to good in back of my ABBA set of
> lgle (that's lime green locomotive....)FP7s
> 
> Cos
> 
> Cos Communications, Inc.
> Home Page
> Rail Road Pages
=================================================

It would also be a very exciting journey under the Hudson into Penn
Station or through the Baltimore tunnels.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

=


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:40:21 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Product Announcements List
From: Jerry Britton 

For all the "newbies" that may not realize the list exists, and because
their is currently a discussion on another list about "new" products(*) that
actually shipped/announced many months ago, I want to remind/announce to all
about the "Merchandise Announce" list operated by "Merchandise Service"...

Even if you prefer another dealer to make your purchases from, I encourage
all to subscribe to the "Merchandise Announce" list so that you are among
the first to know about new product announcements.

As an "announcement only" list, there are only 1-2 posts per week, so
traffic is very light.

So sign up today and don't be the last to know!

See

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

P.S. I expect to have the June releases from InterMountain sometime today.


(*) Discussion on other lists is about the release (many months ago) of
Morning Sun's "Trackside North of Washington" and the forthcoming release
(announced many months ago) of Morning Sun's "Pennsy Diesel Years Vol.3".
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:43:24 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Dave Johnson's Panhandle Division
From: Jerry Britton 

I have uploaded a major facelift of the web pages for Dave Johnson's
"Panhandle Division" layout on the Layouts page of "Keystone Crossings"...

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/

Dave has done an excellent job of modeling Lines West, coming out of
Pittsburgh and Conway, through Weirton and Mingo Junctions, etc. He also
provided superb photos, track plans, and schematics.

This layout has been promoted to inclusion in the "PRR Virtual Layout".

I encourage all to stop by and take a look!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:01:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars



Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the 
Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).  
With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the 
PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the 
Pullman pool.

And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the 
prewar Brook cars!

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:28:16 EDT
From: BPX29@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars/ Duplex rooms

And & folks,
I haven't paid real close attention to this discussion, but as regards the Brook and Creek cars, I think they also had different configurations. I can't recall which version was pre-war, but one series had 4 double rooms and the other had 5, with both having 12 singles, as well as more minor differences. (As the early 50's edition of the Broadway carried the 4 double bedroom version, I'd suspect that was the post-war version; the Golden Triangle carried both versions at the same time).
If someone had already pointed this out, my apologies for not paying closer attention.

I was also under the impression, speaking of Rivarossi cars, that some of the "1940" series of corregated cars were Pennsy-friendly, though I haven't looked at them close enough to speak on the matter. They certainly did a nice job on some of the paint schemes (but I do hafta shake my head a bit at a parlor car nane on the coach), and I'll add a coach or two to one of my trains. It's close enough for me, and nobody in this neighborhood knows diddly about the Pennsy anyway.
regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:35:39 -0400 

Bob and the list:

The Bachmann 10-Section in Pullman pool service was called "Scenic Glade"
and was painted in Pullman Green. It is kinda weird that this topic has
surfaced now since I am currently doing this  car right now. Although that
there was only one of these cars, I think that it was likely that this car
roamed PRR rails occasionally.

As for the Rivarossi HW Duplexes, those are next on my list. I am doing
"Eventide" in PRR Pre-war colors and "Nocturne" in PRR Post-war colors.

Ted Andrews

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 10:01 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars




Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the 
Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).

With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the

PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the

Pullman pool.

And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the 
prewar Brook cars!

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:22:50 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

EVENTIDE and NOCTURN regularly appeared on the Edison during most of
their lifetime.

The prewar streamlined Duplexes (M BROOK) were 12-5s, the post war (C
CREEK) were 12-4s

When they first appeared, I researched the assignments of the 20-odd
(very odd) cars which matched the Bachmann Pullman.  That's how I
decided to paint mine for Southern.  I have a paper on the subject for
those that are interested.  I don't recall whether its posted on Jerry
B's KC site.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> 
> Bob and the list:
> 
> The Bachmann 10-Section in Pullman pool service was called "Scenic Glade"
> and was painted in Pullman Green. It is kinda weird that this topic has
> surfaced now since I am currently doing this  car right now. Although that
> there was only one of these cars, I think that it was likely that this car
> roamed PRR rails occasionally.
> 
> As for the Rivarossi HW Duplexes, those are next on my list. I am doing
> "Eventide" in PRR Pre-war colors and "Nocturne" in PRR Post-war colors.
> 
> Ted Andrews
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 10:01 AM
> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
> 
> Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the
> Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).
> 
> With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the
> 
> PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the
> 
> Pullman pool.
> 
> And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the
> prewar Brook cars!
> 
> Bob Zoeller


"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:22:50 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

EVENTIDE and NOCTURN regularly appeared on the Edison during most of
their lifetime.

The prewar streamlined Duplexes (M BROOK) were 12-5s, the post war (C
CREEK) were 12-4s

When they first appeared, I researched the assignments of the 20-odd
(very odd) cars which matched the Bachmann Pullman.  That's how I
decided to paint mine for Southern.  I have a paper on the subject for
those that are interested.  I don't recall whether its posted on Jerry
B's KC site.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> 
> Bob and the list:
> 
> The Bachmann 10-Section in Pullman pool service was called "Scenic Glade"
> and was painted in Pullman Green. It is kinda weird that this topic has
> surfaced now since I am currently doing this  car right now. Although that
> there was only one of these cars, I think that it was likely that this car
> roamed PRR rails occasionally.
> 
> As for the Rivarossi HW Duplexes, those are next on my list. I am doing
> "Eventide" in PRR Pre-war colors and "Nocturne" in PRR Post-war colors.
> 
> Ted Andrews
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 10:01 AM
> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
> 
> Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the
> Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).
> 
> With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the
> 
> PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the
> 
> Pullman pool.
> 
> And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the
> prewar Brook cars!
> 
> Bob Zoeller


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:27:35 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Pans and Domes

My understanding is that the graphite shoes (self lubricating) were replaced by steel shoes in which case the copper rubbing off would have been the lubricant.  It was also the repsonsibility of someone in the cab (fireman?) to check the shoes for holes at every stop.  As expressed elsewhere the reason for no domes on tne corridor wasn't the catenary but the tunnel clearances.  Amtrak had a superliner in Philadelphia some years back that must have come in from the west.  As a resident of teh south suburbs who rides the IC occasionaly I still get a little nervous about the 4" clearance on the doubledeck cars.



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:34:45 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars/ Duplex rooms

In a message dated 6/4/01 10:34:03 AM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com 
writes:

<<  as regards the Brook and Creek cars, I think they also had different 
configurations. >>

Yes, prewar were 12 duplex room-5BR  Brook.  Postwar were 12-4 Creek.

 
 <>

I believe they are NYC postwar, but can't swear to it.  But I have the same 
philosophy. I like the prepainted coaches and will use the FOM version at the 
head end of the General until something better comes along.

<< It's close enough for me, and nobody in this neighborhood knows diddly 
about the Pennsy anyway.
 regards, >>

I am in the same position.  I rivet count only so far as to satisfy myself.  
Beyond that, no one has a clue in this neck of the woods either.  Most are 
baffled by my full-length passenger cars and run-through sleepers that are 
"different colors" from the rest of the train. I am using one of the 
Rivarossi Budd sleepers in ATSF on the Broadway until I can finish my ECW 
prewar version,for example. Only I know the difference.

Bob Zoeller
Fox Point, WI

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:11:48 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper
From: Jerry Britton 

Andy Miller sent me a Microsoft Word file which contains his research on the
Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I have converted it to HTML and posted it
on Keystone Crossings in the Modeling section...

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/

Thank you for sharing, Andy!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:47:55 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] P70 round-bottomed appendage

Claus,

Since no one else has taken it upon themselves to answer your question,
I can let you know that I always believed they were water tanks.  First
because the round bottom precludes their being used for anything solid,
like batteries or AC, and second because nothing else under a P70 looks
like a water tank.

BTW, I believe there were two and they were opposite one another on a
P70.  Therefore they would be under the NSY on one side and under the
LVA on the other.
Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
Claus Schlund wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm trying to detail a model of a P70
> coach to match a specific car. After
> looking over a truckload of P70 photos, I noticed
> most P70 photos show a large round-bottomed
> piece of underbody equipment. As good
> a view as any can be found in the recent
> publication "Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania
> Railroad Vol 1 Coaches" on page 8. Both photos
> on this page have the item located
> beneath the letterboard letters "NSY" (within
> "PENNSYLVANIA").
> 
> Can anyone tell me what this thing is??? Some
> type of tank? Somethng else? Inquiring minds
> want to know...
> 
> Thanx - Claus


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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:47:51 -0400

I haven't been at the museum in at least 2-3 years.  So would someone please
clear up a point of confusion?

How many GP30's does the museum actually HAVE?

Another series of posts suggests there may be TWO, and that one is already
painted in original Pennsy.

If there is only ONE--total, that could change our view of things.

Thanks in advance to anyone clearing this up!




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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:51:32 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
From: Jerry Britton 

One of the June product releases from Intermountain
(http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of "Wolf's
Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).

I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find no
entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:

1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
lines ran through Oil City?

2) The company went out of business.

3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United Natural
Gas Go." at MP 119.7.

Anyone know?

Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
ventured east.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
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Subject: [PRR] Re: Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:00:09 -0400
From: Dennis Rockwell 

On 4 Jun, Jerry Britton wrote:

> One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
> ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of "Wolf's
> Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).

Buyers should be aware that the road numbers of these tanks
are the same as the kit version released several months ago,
so check carefully for duplicates unless you intend to
renumber.  This is also true for most of Intermountain's
prebuilt models these days; it was not true for some early
model runs.  I believe that IM waits until kit sales slow
down, then assembles the remaining kits.

Dennis

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:03:07 -0400
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper

Jerry Britton wrote:

> Andy Miller sent me a Microsoft Word file which contains his research on the
> Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I have converted it to HTML and posted it
> on Keystone Crossings in the Modeling section...
>
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/
>
> Thank you for sharing, Andy!
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

List-
I was so annoyed at Bachmann that I took it upon myself to send them a copy of
Andy Miller's report on the Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I'll let you know if I
get any response.

Regards.
Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling the C&PD in HO



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City,
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:15:29 -0400


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.


>
> Jerry:
>
> There is one other possibility - and  I think it is the likely one. Wolf's
> Head had its corporate headquarters in Oil City, but its plant at another
> Station. If you recall, Quaker State's main plant on the PRR wasn't even
in
> Pennsylvania but in West Virginia.
>
> Gregg Mahlkov
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Britton" 
> To: "PRR-Talk LIST" 
> Cc: "PRR-n_scale" 
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:51 PM
> Subject: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
>
>
> > One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> > (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
> > ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of
> "Wolf's
> > Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).
> >
> > I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find
no
> > entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:
> >
> > 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
> > lines ran through Oil City?
> >
> > 2) The company went out of business.
> >
> > 3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United
Natural
> > Gas Go." at MP 119.7.
> >
> > Anyone know?
> >
> > Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
> > ventured east.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
> >     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> > Free serving of railroad web sites
> >     http://www.railfancentral.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:33:26 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

Jerry sez:
>Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
>ventured east.

In spite of what some folks might tell you, PFE cars were indeed seen in
some numbers on the PRR.  Apparently PFE preferred other routing as PRR had
the reputation of handling perishables just like coal, and therefore losing
a lot along the way, but blocks of perishables for PRR served cities would
come east in PFE cars.  Apparently cars were re-blocked at Enola for final
distribution...so where whole blocks of PFE cars might be appropriate for
trains on Horseshoe curve, you might see PFE, WFE, and FGE carss all mixed
together east of Enola (this is born out by videos I have looked at)

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:20:59 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper

I first distributed that report when the car was first introduced
several years ago.  SO I suspect that they have seen it for some time
and a response now is unlikely.

My only complaint (besides all of the crazy paint schemes) is that they
went thru all that effort for a very obscure car.  I suspect they never
even know it was obscure. "A 10 section Pullman is a 10 section Pullman
is a 10 section Pullman" :-(

My biggest annoyance with B is that they make some very good PRR parts
and won't sell them separately.  Next time you complain to them, ask
them about buying trucks, or tenders, or Pullman underbody details...!

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote:
> 
> Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> > Andy Miller sent me a Microsoft Word file which contains his research on the
> > Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I have converted it to HTML and posted it
> > on Keystone Crossings in the Modeling section...
> >
> >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/
> >
> > Thank you for sharing, Andy!
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> 
> List-
> I was so annoyed at Bachmann that I took it upon myself to send them a copy of
> Andy Miller's report on the Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I'll let you know if I
> get any response.
> 
> Regards.
> Dr. Edmond L. Freed
> PRRT&HS # 156
> Modeling the C&PD in HO


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: robert netzlof 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

--- Jerry Britton  wrote:
>   "Wolf's
> Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa."
> 
> 
> I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the
> Buffalo Division. I find no
> entry for this company. This leaves three
> possibilities:
> 
> 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by
> another line. 

By 1945, Wolf's Head may well (no pun intended) have
had their principle office in Oil City, but their
wells and refineries elsewhere. By then the Gulf Coast
fields had become the big producers.

> What other
> lines ran through [or to] Oil City?

New York Central, Erie.

> 
> 2) The company went out of business.
>

They may have by now, but they were still advertising
in the 1960's and probably later. 

> 3) The company merged into a larger business.

See comment to 2) above.

> There was a "United Natural Gas Go." at MP 119.7.
>

To the best of my knowlege, UNG was just gas, nothing
but gas. Come to think of it, UNG was and may still be
"the gas company" in much of Western Pa. north of
I-80. 

Quaker State (the Big Q) and Pennzoil had their
corporate offices in Oil City long after most of their
production and refining was going on in other parts of
the country. Wolf's Head was, to the best of my
knowlege, a minor player specializing in lube oil. (I
may have seen a Wolf's Head gas station here or there,
but nothing compared to Esso, Gulf, Atlantic,
Sinclair, etc.).

I recall reading an article in an antique handbook
which said that lube oils from Pennsylvania crude did
not thin out at high temperatures, unlike oils from
Gulf Coast crudes. Same idea as 10W-30 oil but
occurring naturally, without the additives. Thus,
"Pennsylvania" somewhere on the can or tank car or in
the corporate name was believed to have sales appeal. 

It may be (and here I speculate but not terribly
wildly) that Wolf's Head Oil Co. was the name of a
sales company which marketed oil refined by the Ralph
J. Wilson Refining Co. (or some such).



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


__________________________________________________
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From: 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:30:29 -0700

It's more likely that IM ships kits from a current run to
China (via ship), has them assembled, and shipped back to
the good 'ol USA. The time lag is probably why it takes some
months for the assembled kits to hit the shelves.

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ


one more thing...PFE's R-40-23 cars were the most common of
the steel reefers on the PFE roster (sort of the X-29 of the
PFE fleet) with 5000 members. It's HIGHLY likely that this
car would show up virtually anywhere.



On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:00:09 -0400
 Dennis Rockwell  wrote:
> On 4 Jun, Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> > One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> > 
> Buyers should be aware that the road numbers of these
> tanks
> are the same as the kit version released several months
> ago,
> I believe that IM waits until kit sales slow
> down, then assembles the remaining kits.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Bill Bigler" 
Subject: Re: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:45:13 -0400

Bruce,

Not to pick nits,but what does the subject line have to do with the message?
Just curious!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. &
     downtown Williamsport WWII

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 3:33 PM
Subject: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.


> Jerry sez:
> >Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
> >ventured east.
>
> In spite of what some folks might tell you, PFE cars were indeed seen in
> some numbers on the PRR.  Apparently PFE preferred other routing as PRR
had
> the reputation of handling perishables just like coal, and therefore
losing
> a lot along the way, but blocks of perishables for PRR served cities would
> come east in PFE cars.  Apparently cars were re-blocked at Enola for final
> distribution...so where whole blocks of PFE cars might be appropriate for
> trains on Horseshoe curve, you might see PFE, WFE, and FGE carss all mixed
> together east of Enola (this is born out by videos I have looked at)
>
> Happy Rails
> Bruce
>
> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
> Scott-Ritchey Research Center
> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
>
> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
>                            __
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>
>
>
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From: "Jerry Shickler" 
Subject: [PRR] re:wolf's head oil
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:48:27 -0400

Wolf's Head is now owned by Pennzoil-Quaker State & is still available.  Oil
City was also served by the PRR, Erie & NYC.  I came across a reference
saying that the Wolf's Head refinery was in Reno, just west of Oil City, on
the north side of the river.  At Reno, the NYC & Erie ran on the north side,
while the PRR was on the south.

---
Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:58:49 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Sunshine R50b

This may be old news to some--it might have been announced at the 
PRRT&HS--but I just got my invite to the RPM meet at Naperville from Sunshine 
and they announced they will release the above "soon".   I've got two brass 
versions (one to be painted) but look forward to more for the "fleet".

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:08:31 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: Re: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

Hi Bill,

Picking nits is fine, since turnabout on me is ALWAYS fair play , but
I'm a little mystified in this case...since I modified the subject line to
reflect the change to PFE cars...And, really, its all JERRY'S FAULT anyway
since he stuck a topic in his email that had nothing at all to do with the
subject!

>From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 3:33 PM
>Subject: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
          ^^^
Perhaps I should have added something more than just "PFE"? ;^)

Happy Rails
Bruce

>Bruce,
>
>Not to pick nits,but what does the subject line have to do with the message?
>Just curious!
>
>Bill Bigler

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
                           __
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:33:28 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Painting PRR steam engines
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" 

I am sitting here looking at a photo of I-1 4543 taken in East Altoona on 16
Aug 1955.  The unusual thing about this photo is that it was taken from
above the engine and clearly shows upper surfaces that cannot be seen from a
conventional ground level photo.

Some observations

1.  The smokebox is slightly darker than the boiler jacket toward the front,
but grades to boiler jacket color at the back;  this may be a shadow effect.
The boiler jacket, firebox top, turret top and cab roof are all a relatively
uniform light gray color in this photo.  The smokebox number plate is shiny.
The cab numbers and "Pennsylvania" on the tender are easily visible.

2.  Ashes are everywhere:  on the deck above the air tanks, on the running
board sections, on the cab toe board, on the top of the firebox, on the cab
hatch, on the cab roof, and there is a large accumulation on the roof upside
of the gutter.  This latter accumulation gets wider toward the rear of the
cab roof where the gutter meets the rain shield.

3.  There is white sand around both sandbox hatches and some spilled on the
running board beneath the sanding valves.

So, if you want to model a working steam engine and make it look authentic
you probably ought to paint it some shade of grimy black, as someone on this
list suggested a couple of years ago, and liberally apply finely ground ash
on every horizontal surface available.  

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:31:29 -0400
From: "David R. Campbell" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
> ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of "Wolf's
> Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).
> 
> I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find no
> entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:
> 
> 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
> lines ran through Oil City?
> 
> 2) The company went out of business.
> 
> 3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United Natural
> Gas Go." at MP 119.7.
> 
> Anyone know?
> 
> Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
> ventured east.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".

Jerry,

I lived there for many years before moving to VA. There was Wolf's Head
refinery in Reno, PA between Oil City and Franklin, across the river
from the PRR line. What became the Erie Lackawanna (Erie I guess) and
the NYC (LSMS) ran beside the refinery. I believe it burnt years ago.
Great area, & I love to go back from time to time.

Wolf's Head was purchased in later years by Pennzoil I believe, which
was head quartered in Oil City for a number of years. Pennzoil had a
refinery north of Oil City in Rouseville. Not sure about Wolf's Head's
main office. 

My father worked for UNG which became NFG (National Fuel Gas) a natural
gas utility, no connection with Wolf's Head.

David Campbell

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:21:11 -0400
From: "R. Vogel" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] re:wolf's head oil

Hi,

If you want to see some evidence of Wolf's Head check out: www.mapsofpa.com/roadmaps5.htm

-Bob Vogel

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:55:54 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

In a message dated 06/04/2001 3:00:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find no
 entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:
 
 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
 lines ran through Oil City?  

NYC & Erie
 
 2) The company went out of business.  

Still in business today.
 
 3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United Natural
 Gas Go." at MP 119.7.

Different company.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:58:51 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil

In a message dated 06/04/2001 3:17:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:

<< There is one other possibility - and  I think it is the likely one. Wolf's
 > Head had its corporate headquarters in Oil City, but its plant at another
 > Station. If you recall, Quaker State's main plant on the PRR wasn't even
 in
 > Pennsylvania but in West Virginia.
 > >>
Gregg:

Wolf's head still has facilities in Oil City.  A few months ago, there was a 
large number of tank cars there as well.

Rich Orr

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From: Paul Stumpff 
Subject: [PRR] Re: Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa. 
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 21:16:09 -0400

I think Wolf's Head Refinery was in Reno or was it Eclipse on the west bank 
of the Allegheny. Do not have if NYC or Erie served it.

If it was NYC, could have PRR served Wolf's Head when they were using that 
line; the original WNY&P had trackage rights from Oil City to Stoneboro on 
NYC's Franklin branch [later Oil City Branch, then Reno Industrial under 
PC]. The WNY&P then continued to New Castle from Stoneboro; in later years 
this service was cut to New Castle to Houston Jct.

FYI, Wolf's Head is still marketed. I think it is Witco that owns the 
label. Witco also markets Kendall.

Paul Stumpff



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 21:46:18 -0400

Rich:

>From sev eral other posts, it appears that Wolf's Head is outside of Oil
City, at Reno, PA. Coukl this be the location you are referring to?

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: ; 
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City,
Pa.


> In a message dated 06/04/2001 3:17:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:
>
> << There is one other possibility - and  I think it is the likely one.
Wolf's
>  > Head had its corporate headquarters in Oil City, but its plant at
another
>  > Station. If you recall, Quaker State's main plant on the PRR wasn't
even
>  in
>  > Pennsylvania but in West Virginia.
>  > >>
> Gregg:
>
> Wolf's head still has facilities in Oil City.  A few months ago, there was
a
> large number of tank cars there as well.
>
> Rich Orr
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:43:41 -0400
From: davep 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pans and Domes

NDBPRR@AOL.COM wrote:

> My understanding is that the graphite shoes (self lubricating) were

	Graphite is a tad fragile.
	Consider that the shoe is continually colliding with the wire
	at 120 mph...

> replaced by steel shoes

	Just so.  cf Manson, RR Electrification and elsewhere.

> in which case the copper

	The usual contact wire is a bronze alloy, sometimes called 'phono
	bronze'.

	best
	dwp

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From: Paul Stumpff 
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/05/01
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 02:56:45 -0400

After checking around, the refinery is still there. It was served by both 
the Erie and NYC. Now NS still services it using the former Erie [EL] 
trackage with some of NYC trackage still around. This information was 
provided off Pennsylvania Railfan Forum, thanks Ryan Fischer.

Paul Stumpff




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From: "Chany, Christopher" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Sunshine R50b
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:05:40 -0400 

An R50b!  Hooray!  I'll buy two which will guarantee it will come out in
plastic :)

Chris Chany

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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:46:11 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Model Manufacturers and Road Numbers
From: Jerry Britton 

Just a primer for those that don't know...

Yesterday it was mentioned that InterMountain has, in at least some cases,
used the same road numbers for both their kits and their pre-assembled
models.

Both InterMountain Railway and Red Caboose utilize the same part number
system for their models. There is one part number for a particular car in a
particular scheme. For instance, one part number for an "X-29 in PRR Shadow
Keystone". They then offer multiple road numbers of each. Rather than
putting the road number on the box, they append the part number with a
suffix that denotes the road number release number. When the first dozen
road numbers are released, for instance, the part numbers will have the
suffixes of "-01", ..., "-12". As long as you pick a box with a different
suffix, you will get a different road number.

Bowser also makes multiple road numbers. Unfortunately, there is no
indication of such on their boxes.

Branchline Trains usually makes four numbers per release. Again, no marking
on the box, except that they offer a single car and a three pack. The three
pack bears the same part number as the single car, plus the suffix "3".
Other than that, no way to tell.

Deluxe Innovations (N scale only) usually offers a single car, a two pack,
and a three pack for a total of six numbers. No specific way to tell from
the packaging however.

I've addressed only those major manufacturers offering prototypic
pre-painted/lettered models in multiple road numbers. Anything to add,
anyone?

As an aside, not many dealers carry InterMountain -- perhaps due to cost,
perhaps due to the fact that they don't sell through distributors
(convenience), perhaps due to ignorance. If you've never seen one, I
encourage you to try one. The kits are every bit as detailed as Red Caboose
(separate grabs, underbody details, etc.). And, for about $4-5 extra you can
get a pre-assembled version of many of the kits. Building a kit offers some
entertainment, but when you need hundreds of them, I'll pay the surcharge!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: PRR5499@att.net
Subject: Re: [PRR] Product Announcements List
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:50:49 +0000


  It looks like Key Imports waited to long --again.
  Precision Scale,Iron Horse Models, has the H.O. PRR J-
1,J-1a in production. There will be 8 to 12 numbers 
available. Engines with and without radio antenna.

                                            E. Case
  
> For all the "newbies" that may not realize the list exists, and because
> their is currently a discussion on another list about "new" products(*) that
> actually shipped/announced many months ago, I want to remind/announce to all
> about the "Merchandise Announce" list operated by "Merchandise Service"...
> 
> Even if you prefer another dealer to make your purchases from, I encourage
> all to subscribe to the "Merchandise Announce" list so that you are among
> the first to know about new product announcements.
> 
> As an "announcement only" list, there are only 1-2 posts per week, so
> traffic is very light.
> 
> So sign up today and don't be the last to know!
> 
> See
> 
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> 
> P.S. I expect to have the June releases from InterMountain sometime today.
> 
> 
> (*) Discussion on other lists is about the release (many months ago) of
> Morning Sun's "Trackside North of Washington" and the forthcoming release
> (announced many months ago) of Morning Sun's "Pennsy Diesel Years Vol.3".
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".

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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:58:00 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Manufacturers and Road Numbers
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/5/01 8:46 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote:

> Yesterday it was mentioned that InterMountain has, in at least some cases,
> used the same road numbers for both their kits and their pre-assembled
> models.
> 
> Both InterMountain Railway and Red Caboose utilize the same part number
> system for their models. There is one part number for a particular car in a
> particular scheme. For instance, one part number for an "X-29 in PRR Shadow
> Keystone". They then offer multiple road numbers of each. Rather than
> putting the road number on the box, they append the part number with a
> suffix that denotes the road number release number. When the first dozen
> road numbers are released, for instance, the part numbers will have the
> suffixes of "-01", ..., "-12". As long as you pick a box with a different
> suffix, you will get a different road number.
> 
I failed to mention...at the "Merchandise Service" eStore you can specify
which road number you want (or "no preference").
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:09:05 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Bowser GLa Getting Closer
From: Jerry Britton 

Bowser has now publicly (web site) shown their intent of producing the
GLa...slating it for a fall release.

Presumably having gotten past all engineering roadblocks, they are now
asking for photos of GLa's (from any road/private owners).

If you can help, please contact Bowser. Thanks.

P.S. The H21a will be the next N scale car!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Sunshine R50b
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:26:55 -0400 

Ditto for me. WOOHOO!!

Ted Andrews

-----Original Message-----
From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 7:06 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Sunshine R50b


An R50b!  Hooray!  I'll buy two which will guarantee it will come out in
plastic :)

Chris Chany

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From: BlockTruck@aol.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:38:34 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pans

The PRR continued to use graphite pantograph shoes well into the Penn Central 
era.  While graphite may be "fragile",  an 11/2"x11/2" bar bonded to a steel 
backplate held up reasonably well.

The catenary did not run down the center of the track, but was installed in a 
very gentle "s" pattern so that the contact with the pans was back and forth 
across most of the width of the pan.  The graphite shoes were sectional with 
the inside ends of the section made on a diagonal so that the wire rode 
across two shoes as it traveled back and forth, like this:    
|_______/_______/_______|

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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:49:53 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] R50B

What type of car will this be please?  Thank you, Norm Bell

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From: PRR5499@att.net
Subject: [PRR] PRR J-1s
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:09:53 +0000


   I doubt very much that Key Imports will do the J-1s
 now in H.O.,just in "N". We told them two years ago it 
was a good project. Also Sam was not going to build it 
for them,just the independant contractors.Possibly the 
same ones that PSC contacted. PSC can put out excellant 
products if they listen to the right people,and remember
 all the info thats given them..
                                         E.Case
  
                     

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 10:14:23 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunshine R50b

Chris,

You are right they will be out in plastic ...

Greg Martin

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From: Paul Stumpff 
Subject: [PRR] Re: Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa. 
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:28:17 -0400

Listers:

Sorry, but I have received further information that refinery is not 
operating. Facility was recently being used for blending and packaging. Do 
not know if still open.

I got Wolf's Head mixed up with another company; Pennzoil bought the Wolf's 
Head brand.

Anyway, would have the WNY&P been allowed to serve the refinery or not. 
Probably not.

Paul Stumpff



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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 13:08:05 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil

Gregg:

The facility may not be in Oil City limits. From the other postings I would 
think the facilities I am talking about are in Reno. I know they are on the 
other side of the Allegheny River from the main area of Oil City.

Rich

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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 13:00:54 -0500
Subject: [PRR] FW: Wolf's Head Oil
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" 

My brother is chief of the Penna. Dept. of Environmental Resources, or 
whatever the latest moniker is.  I asked him about Wolfs Head Oil.  Here is
his reply.



Wolfs Head, like Quaker State, became a subsidiary of Pennzoil.  Pennzoil
was refining Wolf Head oil at the plant in Rouseville, but Wolfs Head was
packaging it in Reno, just down the Allegheny from Oil City.  Pennzoil shut
down their refinery in Rouseville last year, effectively cutting off the
Appalachian refining business.  Pennzoil/Quaker State/Wolfs Head wanted out
of the refining business, so they shut down all but one refinery (in
Marietta, Ohio I believe) and moved to Texas.  Now they package oil refined
elsewhere, like Louisiana, using the same names, but the packaging is done
somewhere other than Venango County.

This, of course, was a major economic blow to Venango County.  I don't think
they'll recover for a long time.

If you want land, you can probably buy it for a song.

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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:28:05 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Macintosh Scale Conversion Calculator
From: Jerry Britton 

For the Mac users among us, I just found a Desk Accessory (mini-program)
that converts measurements from one scale to another. It's pretty cool, and
free!

    http://personalpages.tds.net/~graffix/software/mac.html#conversion
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 14:39:18 -0400
From: Steve Hanlon 
Subject: [PRR] brake systems

i'm looking for a website that has info on all the systems used to stop
trains in the past.

i know there are at least versions of the air brake system.  where there
ever any assisted systems that use fluid to boost the pressure on larger
cars, ie tank cars?

what systems were used by the PRR?

-steve



MTH Electric Trains
7020 Columbia Gateway Drive
Columbia, MD  21046
Ph.: 410-381-2580
Fax: 410-423-0037
email:  steveh@mth-railking.com
www.mth-railking.com


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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: [PRR] P-70 Coach interior color schemes
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:47:45 -0400 

PRR-Listers:

I am detailing some Bachmann P-70 coaches in the Pre-war paint. I am going
to paint the interiors which include the seats, floor and inner vestible
walls. What would be some prototypical color schemes that I can base my
painting on?

TIA 

Ted Andrews


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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:37:06 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70 Coach interior color schemes

The scheme I'm familiar with for prewar cars is beige walls, cream
ceiling, dark green upholstery, black arm rests.  If the cars are not in
commuter service, then white antimacassars.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================

"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> 
> PRR-Listers:
> 
> I am detailing some Bachmann P-70 coaches in the Pre-war paint. I am going
> to paint the interiors which include the seats, floor and inner vestible
> walls. What would be some prototypical color schemes that I can base my
> painting on?
> 
> TIA
> 
> Ted Andrews
>


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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] brake systems
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:30:37 -0400

Steve:

PRR was one on the pioneers in the use of air brakes - indeed the first
equipment to have George Westinghouse's brake applied to it was on the PRR.
The original system was "straight air", where air pressure was used to apply
the brakes. It soon became evident that this could be improved on trains, as
the failure mode was no brakes. So the current system, using what was once
the "triple valve" and air reservoirs became the standard.

Since its inception, this has been virtually the only system used on
common-carrier standard gauge railroads in North America.

Some narrow gauge railroads, and some overseas railways, used the opposite,
the vacuum brake, where rather than pressure being maintained in the line to
keep the brakes off, a vacuum is maintained in the line. Narrow gauge
locomotives with what appears to be a large "tin can" on the roof of the cab
are equipped with vacuum brakes. The brake cylinders on cars and locomotives
vaguely resemble a speaker.

You have to go into the realm of rapid transit to find any hydraulic systems
used, and again, very rarely. Of course, since such systems are self
contained, the do not have to conform to interchange rules.

Prior to the adoption of air brakes, there were other types of systems
attempted, such as a drum and chain driven by a wheel pressed against a
driver, but none were successful.

Your reference to tank cars suddenly reminded me of a photograph in Hilton's
book on U. S. narrow gauge railroads. It shows a tank car on the narrow
gauge Waynesburg & Washington, a PRR line, equipped with vacuum brakes,
taken at such an angle that the vacuum brake cylinder is quite prominent. Is
this perhaps what  you re thinking of? If so, Hilton's book describes the
vacuum brake system in detail.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Hanlon" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 2:39 PM
Subject: [PRR] brake systems


> i'm looking for a website that has info on all the systems used to stop
> trains in the past.
>
> i know there are at least versions of the air brake system.  where there
> ever any assisted systems that use fluid to boost the pressure on larger
> cars, ie tank cars?
>
> what systems were used by the PRR?
>
> -steve
>
>
>
> MTH Electric Trains
> 7020 Columbia Gateway Drive
> Columbia, MD  21046
> Ph.: 410-381-2580
> Fax: 410-423-0037
> email:  steveh@mth-railking.com
> www.mth-railking.com
>
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: BNdave1@aol.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 18:40:38 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] brake systems

Gregg,

EXCELLENT answer!  I have also wondered about some of these things and very 
much appreciate this brief education in RR braking systems.  Good show!

                                                    Dave

In a message dated 6/5/01 4:36:26 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net 
writes:

<< PRR was one on the pioneers in the use of air brakes - indeed the first
 equipment to have George Westinghouse's brake applied to it was on the PRR.
 The original system was "straight air", where air pressure was used to apply
 the brakes. It soon became evident that this could be improved on trains, as
 the failure mode was no brakes. So the current system, using what was once
 the "triple valve" and air reservoirs became the standard.
 
 Since its inception, this has been virtually the only system used on
 common-carrier standard gauge railroads in North America.
 
 Some narrow gauge railroads, and some overseas railways, used the opposite,
 the vacuum brake, where rather than pressure being maintained in the line to
 keep the brakes off, a vacuum is maintained in the line. Narrow gauge
 locomotives with what appears to be a large "tin can" on the roof of the cab
 are equipped with vacuum brakes. The brake cylinders on cars and locomotives
 vaguely resemble a speaker.
 
 You have to go into the realm of rapid transit to find any hydraulic systems
 used, and again, very rarely. Of course, since such systems are self
 contained, the do not have to conform to interchange rules.
 
 Prior to the adoption of air brakes, there were other types of systems
 attempted, such as a drum and chain driven by a wheel pressed against a
 driver, but none were successful.
 
 Your reference to tank cars suddenly reminded me of a photograph in Hilton's
 book on U. S. narrow gauge railroads. It shows a tank car on the narrow
 gauge Waynesburg & Washington, a PRR line, equipped with vacuum brakes,
 taken at such an angle that the vacuum brake cylinder is quite prominent. Is
 this perhaps what  you re thinking of? If so, Hilton's book describes the
 vacuum brake system in detail.
 
 Gregg Mahlkov >>

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Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:12:41 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Wolf's Head Oil
From: Jeffrey D Thomas 

There is no refinery in Marietta Ohio. I grew up there and get back to
visit every year so  I know there has not been a refinery in town for at 
least 50 years. You might be thinking of the old Quaker State refinery
just up the river in St. Marys , W.Va. I believe however that it was sold
to someone else several years ago.

On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 13:00:54 -0500 "Donald E. Harper, Jr"
 writes:
> My brother is chief of the Penna. Dept. of Environmental Resources, 
> or 
> whatever the latest moniker is.  I asked him about Wolfs Head Oil.  
> Here is
> his reply.
> 
> 
> 
> Wolfs Head, like Quaker State, became a subsidiary of Pennzoil.  
> Pennzoil
> was refining Wolf Head oil at the plant in Rouseville, but Wolfs 
> Head was
> packaging it in Reno, just down the Allegheny from Oil City.  
> Pennzoil shut
> down their refinery in Rouseville last year, effectively cutting off 
> the
> Appalachian refining business.  Pennzoil/Quaker State/Wolfs Head 
> wanted out
> of the refining business, so they shut down all but one refinery (in
> Marietta, Ohio I believe) and moved to Texas.  Now they package oil 
> refined
> elsewhere, like Louisiana, using the same names, but the packaging 
> is done
> somewhere other than Venango County.
> 
> This, of course, was a major economic blow to Venango County.  I 
> don't think
> they'll recover for a long time.
> 
> If you want land, you can probably buy it for a song.
> 
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Jeff Thomas
Denton,Texas

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 23:24:59 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Coupler cover doors

Can anyone steer me to a picture of an F-unit with these doors open, either 
in print or on-line? Lots of photos closed or after the doors were removed, 
but I am continuing to search my library for one with doors open. Just 
started, but looking for a shortcut,like if anyone already has a ready 
reference.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 09:29:14 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coupler cover doors

I saw one just last night!   It was a British book (one of their
innumerable "coffee table" books on trains).  This one was on North
American RRs.  It had a foto of a set of PRR F3s with the doors open. 
The caption called it an American passenger loco; that despite the
freight train visible behind it.  The Brits never did understand real
RRing ;-)   

My club was selling it for $5 as surplus from our library.  I will be
there again this Thursday, and can either get more info on the book for
you, or buy it for you and mail it to you, or if you live in the Boston
Mass area - come on down.  We are in Wakefield.

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Can anyone steer me to a picture of an F-unit with these doors open, either
> in print or on-line? Lots of photos closed or after the doors were removed,
> but I am continuing to search my library for one with doors open. Just
> started, but looking for a shortcut,like if anyone already has a ready
> reference.
> 
> Bob Zoeller
> 
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> "listserv@dsop.com".

-- 


Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 10:41:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Will 
Subject: [PRR] [dandh] Another Theft on the railroad (fwd)


People need to keep an eye out for anything that is listed......


Will Semanchuk-Enser	General Manager
alcoman@bluemoon.net	www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp.
V.90, X2 & K56flex	www.railfan.net  - The Railfan Network  
			alcoman.Railfan.net - Homepage

>----- Original Message -----
>Subject: Freedom Trains theft
>
>> Freedom Trains theft
>> Please go to the following site and read what was burglarized from 
the
>Exhibit Car of the Museum of America's Freedom Trains, during the 
car's
>> movement mishandling by the Union Pacific:
>> http://www.freedomtrain.org/theft.htm




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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:27:27 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Coupler cover doors

In a message dated 6/6/01 10:22:47 AM Central Daylight Time, 
steveh@dotstar.net writes:

<< The first photo that comes to mind is in Pennsy Power III, p. 330, the
 upper photo, behind the Erie-builts.  Not a great shot for modeling
 purposes, but it will give you the idea.  I have used Intermountain's
 passenger pilot which comes with a great set of doors as well as the lower
 bar all as separate pieces.  Fits right on P1K, Stewart F's as well. >>

I found one in PPII as well.  Just picked up the Intermountain pilot kit on 
the return table at Walthers for half price and it seems to have enough info 
to help me.  In the photo I see in PPII it is difficult to see the lower bar 
folded, though.  I have the Precision scale door-only kit and they are 
apparently a different door.

Bob Zoeller

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Zak" 
Subject: [PRR] query
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:05:52 -0400

Hi.
This is probably the dumbest question that's ever been asked here, but I
really need a 'quick-and-dirty' answer:  what's the difference between "Farr
grills" and "horizontal grills"?  I'm on-line with Walthers to do some
ordering.
Zak


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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 12:18:45 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] query
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/6/01 12:05 PM, Zak (s2d2@panax.com) wrote:

> This is probably the dumbest question that's ever been asked here, but I
> really need a 'quick-and-dirty' answer:  what's the difference between "Farr
> grills" and "horizontal grills"?  I'm on-line with Walthers to do some
> ordering.

One makes burgers and the other keilbasa, of course!

Never a dumb question, as based on the info you've provided, I have no idea.

What are we referring to here, details on a specific model of locomotive
(please elaborate), details on passenger cars, etc.?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] query
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:40:07 -0400

Jerry,

Smile when ya say 'keibasa', padnuh!  ;-)

Thanks, though; I didn't know there were so many variations.  I'm interested
in an F7A shell I'm trying to detail.  It's an el cheapo model, but thanks
to one of Bob Zollman's(sp?) msgs, today I found the passenger pilot for the
thing.  Now the grills on this el cheapo just run all the way across from
just behind the engineer area to the end.
The el cheapo is a LifeLike F7A in Amtrak coloring, which I intend to strip,
but came with steam generator details on top.
I thought it was a good buy at $9.95.
Hopes this helps in my query.

Thanks,
Zak

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Britton" 
To: "Zak" ; 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] query


> On 6/6/01 12:05 PM, Zak (s2d2@panax.com) wrote:
>
> > This is probably the dumbest question that's ever been asked here, but I
> > really need a 'quick-and-dirty' answer:  what's the difference between
"Farr
> > grills" and "horizontal grills"?  I'm on-line with Walthers to do some
> > ordering.
>
> One makes burgers and the other keilbasa, of course!
>
> Never a dumb question, as based on the info you've provided, I have no
idea.
>
> What are we referring to here, details on a specific model of locomotive
> (please elaborate), details on passenger cars, etc.?
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
>


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From: "Steve Hoxie" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] query
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:46:52 -0500



> Hi.
> This is probably the dumbest question that's ever been asked here, but I
> really need a 'quick-and-dirty' answer:  what's the difference between
"Farr
> grills" and "horizontal grills"?  I'm on-line with Walthers to do some
> ordering.
> Zak
>
These are side panel grills used on EMD F units.  Farr grills were the
latest version with vertical slits to provide the ventilation.  On the
Pennsy, a good example is the grill type on the FP-7's.  The horizontal
grills have horizontal slits, also the grill appears to be in sections.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] query
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:01:20 -0400

Zak:

Farr grilles have three sets of louvers, one atop the other, running
vertically along the length of the grille. The conventional "horizontal"
grille furnished by EMD had numerous groups of three sets of horizontal
grilles separated by vertical solid areas. Most PRR "F's" had horizontal
grilles, although photos show some were re-equipped with Farr grilles.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Zak" 
To: "Jerry Britton" ; 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] query


> Jerry,
>
> Smile when ya say 'keibasa', padnuh!  ;-)
>
> Thanks, though; I didn't know there were so many variations.  I'm
interested
> in an F7A shell I'm trying to detail.  It's an el cheapo model, but thanks
> to one of Bob Zollman's(sp?) msgs, today I found the passenger pilot for
the
> thing.  Now the grills on this el cheapo just run all the way across from
> just behind the engineer area to the end.
> The el cheapo is a LifeLike F7A in Amtrak coloring, which I intend to
strip,
> but came with steam generator details on top.
> I thought it was a good buy at $9.95.
> Hopes this helps in my query.
>
> Thanks,
> Zak
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Britton" 
> To: "Zak" ; 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [PRR] query
>
>
> > On 6/6/01 12:05 PM, Zak (s2d2@panax.com) wrote:
> >
> > > This is probably the dumbest question that's ever been asked here, but
I
> > > really need a 'quick-and-dirty' answer:  what's the difference between
> "Farr
> > > grills" and "horizontal grills"?  I'm on-line with Walthers to do some
> > > ordering.
> >
> > One makes burgers and the other keilbasa, of course!
> >
> > Never a dumb question, as based on the info you've provided, I have no
> idea.
> >
> > What are we referring to here, details on a specific model of locomotive
> > (please elaborate), details on passenger cars, etc.?
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
> >     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> > Free serving of railroad web sites
> >     http://www.railfancentral.com
> >
>
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] query
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:34:01 -0400

Gregg and Steve,
Thanks ever so much for your input.  I may never get this stupid thing
done.....been playing with it for two years.....but if I ever do, I'll email
a picture.
And thanks, too, to Bob Zoller, who set me on the 'right track' (no pun
intended) about the pilot.
Zak
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Hoxie" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] query


>
>
> > Hi.
> > This is probably the dumbest question that's ever been asked here, but I
> > really need a 'quick-and-dirty' answer:  what's the difference between
> "Farr
> > grills" and "horizontal grills"?  I'm on-line with Walthers to do some
> > ordering.
> > Zak
> >
> These are side panel grills used on EMD F units.  Farr grills were the
> latest version with vertical slits to provide the ventilation.  On the
> Pennsy, a good example is the grill type on the FP-7's.  The horizontal
> grills have horizontal slits, also the grill appears to be in sections.
>
> Steve Hoxie
> Pensacola FL
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>


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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 13:56:04 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Proto Alco S1 Announced; No PRR
From: Jerry Britton 

Life Like has now announced their HO scale Alco S1 Phase II's...no PRR in
the first run. Guess we have to wait for the second run! (SRP is $110.)

Supposedly they are going to do the S1; then the S3, which is the same but
with different trucks; then the S2, which has the trucks of the S1 but a
different radiator; then the S4, which has the trucks of the S3 and the
radiator of the S2! That ought to keep them busy for a few years!

Then they can do them in N scale!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto Alco S1 Announced; No PRR
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:24:45 -0400

Jerry:

It's a little more than radiator (and exhaust stack) differences between the
Alco switchers. S-1 and S-3 were 660 HP, while S-2 and S-4 were 1000 HP. We
can hope, but I'd rather see a Baldwin switcher in N!

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Britton" 
To: "PRR-Talk LIST" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 1:56 PM
Subject: [PRR] Proto Alco S1 Announced; No PRR


> Life Like has now announced their HO scale Alco S1 Phase II's...no PRR in
> the first run. Guess we have to wait for the second run! (SRP is $110.)
>
> Supposedly they are going to do the S1; then the S3, which is the same but
> with different trucks; then the S2, which has the trucks of the S1 but a
> different radiator; then the S4, which has the trucks of the S3 and the
> radiator of the S2! That ought to keep them busy for a few years!
>
> Then they can do them in N scale!
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
>
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:29:44 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto Alco S1 Announced; No PRR
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/6/01 2:24 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote:

> It's a little more than radiator (and exhaust stack) differences between the
> Alco switchers. S-1 and S-3 were 660 HP, while S-2 and S-4 were 1000 HP.

Greg, you are absolutely correct. However, I was limiting myself to the
spotting differences that one would see in a model release. The fact that
the prototype changes from 600 to 1000 hp, probably won't yield models with
motors of increasing voltages!

My comment was a generalization, but is actually very close to exact when
considering only model spotting features.

> We
> can hope, but I'd rather see a Baldwin switcher in N!
> 
Aw c'mon...we want 'em all!!!

My contact at Life Like has told me that anything done in HO will likely
follow in N about 6-12 months later. Since I've been told that, that has
been the case. C-Liner's due this August. Erie-built's in January? Let's
hope!

If only we could get Stewart Hobbies into N scale! 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 19:08:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Amtrack in trouble again!!!!


Hello List,
    I just saw the ABC National news. And they painted a pretty grim
picture of Amtrack. Thier money woes have reached an all time high!
There BILLION dollars in the red. Amtrack has put up Penn Station as
collateral for a loan.
    I have a feeling that Norfolk Southern will own the Northeast
Corridor very soon. Amtrak can't afford to maintain the ex-PRR mainline
anymore and no one from Congress wants to give Amtrack anymore funds. 
    I don't know how true this is but I heard rumors that NS Corp. is
already trying to get the
NEC. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Dave Hopson


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: PKMac101@aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:16:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrack in trouble again!!!!

Dave and List. 
     NS has enough of their own finanical problems although the their stock 
has been doing better lately but maybe BNSF is backing them finacially for 
their own future ventures. Rumors have been rampant on BNSF finanical support 
for a while and there is suppose to be new run through service coast to coast 
with there priority trains so lets see where the chips fall and what may be 
in the future on a transcontinental railroad.
  The future of what is left of a one time fabulous passenger service and 
network may very well be gone forever as no class one railroad wanted 
psgr.service before as it is a money loser and tied up valuable track time 
and they surely would not support it in todays railroad business environment.
 This is only my humble one person opinion as a railroad employee and not 
meant to offend anyone as I hope a workable solution prevails to save Amtrak 
and what is left of todays Psgr. service. I am sure there will be heavy 
discussions on boths side of this thread for a while.

Pat McKinney


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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson)
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:04:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Amtrack in  trouble again!!!!

Pat,Ed, Evan, List

    Hey, I love trains too! But something is really wrong with Amtrak.
Some folks say that the NEC is making money. Some say the NEC is just
breaking even. I think the latter might be true because for years
Amtrack has been spending BILLIONS on signal systems, track work,
station rehabs, motive power, etc. 
    We all know the story of the computer failure 
earlier this year that shut down the NEC. I guess they got thier monies
worth! BUT HOW DO YOU GET THREE BILLION BUCKS IN THE RED! I don't think
Uncle Sam is going to take too much more of this!
    Some Congressmen have already said: "Sell Amtrack". And BNSF and NS
Corp have stood up and taken notice. It's no secret about the BNSF-NS
LA to NY train. The route would be a lot shorter and faster on the ex
Pennsy Low Grade Line  and the Amtrak Corridor. Congress wants Amtrack
to be on thier own by 2003. Oh Boy!
                 Zoo


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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrack in trouble again!!!!
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:09:24 -0400

List:

There was nothing about this on NBC news. They had a feature on D-day
instead. The Amtrak financial situation is nothing new. Actually, one of the
few places Amtrak breaks even is on the NEC, so NS has about as much chance
of stealing it as when they tried to steal Conrail from Uncle Sam years ago.
They offered less than 1 percent of what NS and CSX finally paid!

It seems that whenever the situation looks darkest for Amtrak, the Congress
cannot get up the nerve to kill it. Too many people vote who want trains
available but do not ride them.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hopson" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 7:08 PM
Subject: [PRR] Amtrack in trouble again!!!!


>
> Hello List,
>     I just saw the ABC National news. And they painted a pretty grim
> picture of Amtrack. Thier money woes have reached an all time high!
> There BILLION dollars in the red. Amtrack has put up Penn Station as
> collateral for a loan.
>     I have a feeling that Norfolk Southern will own the Northeast
> Corridor very soon. Amtrak can't afford to maintain the ex-PRR mainline
> anymore and no one from Congress wants to give Amtrack anymore funds.
>     I don't know how true this is but I heard rumors that NS Corp. is
> already trying to get the
> NEC. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
> Dave Hopson
>
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
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>


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Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 21:33:46 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Bowser GLa Hopper Announcement!!!
From: Jerry Britton 

Due to the popularity of this announcement, this edition of "Merchandise
Announce" is being broadcast to the "PRR-Talk" list as well.

*************************************************************************
*                                                                       *
*  eSTORE                                                               *
*                                                                       *
*    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/                                   *
*                                                                       *
*  NEW ARRIVALS                                                         *
*                                                                       *
*    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_new.html         *
*                                                                       *
*  ADVANCE RESERVATIONS                                                 *
*                                                                       *
*    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html          *
*                                                                       *
*************************************************************************

BOWSER

We all knew they were coming, now Merchandise Service is the first to offer
Advance Reservations on the forthcoming HO scale GLa Hoppers!

Up to 48 road numbers will be available in the initial paint schemes, which
include PRR Circle Keystone, PRR Shadow Keystone, PRR Plain Keystone, and
Berwind.

Special discounts are applicable for Advance Reservations as Bowser is
pre-announcing that the price will go up after initial delivery.

Reserve now...they are due this fall!!!

BARNARD ROBERTS & CO.

"Triumph IV", on the Middle Division and expected this fall will arrive
early! I was told this evening that they expect to ship in August!!!

"Triumph V", on the New York Division, won't be a year in coming...it'll be
out just after the first of the year!!!

Reserve both now!!!

LIFE LIKE

Proto 2000 has announced the HO scale Alco S2 diesel switcher. No PRR livery
offered in the first run, but there is an undecorated unit. Reserve now!

PRICE REDUCTIONS

We have reduced pricing on many future locomotive offerings from Life Like
and Atlas. Please review our Advance Reservations page. Thank you.

KATO

The N scale SD80MAC has arrived. We will have enough to fill all advance
reservations. Shipment to customers who reserved will be completed by the
end of the week.

INTERMOUNTAIN RAILWAY

June releases for both HO and N scales have been announced. They are due
June 20ish. Reserve now!
-----------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, President      jbritton@dsop.com
Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc.
    Web hosting and design
    http://www.dsop.com
"Merchandise Service"
    Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com


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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrack in trouble again!!!!
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:41:13 -0400

Hello, all.

I don't know what to say about this situation, but if all of the rest of you
on the list can contribute a couple of hundred bucks and a few cans of red
and gold paint - going out on weekends and painting a lot of cars &
engines - and investing a lot of money on something that apparently IS going
the way of the PRR, maybe we could take care of it!

Yes, I know that *that* was an idiotic statement, but what the heck can be
done about this?  My solution isn't any more dumb than a lot.

Zak


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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 21:57:16 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re: Runaway CSX train

Gee, I don't know why everyone's picking on CSX.  They're just trying to live 
up to what their initials stand for (I was told):

    Chemical Spill eXperts  ;^)   :D  :D

George


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From: "Claus Schlund" 
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:08:15 -0700
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrack in trouble again!!!!

Hi everyone,

Not that I'm singling out Pat or anyone in particular...

And not like I'm the list master or anything...

but please enlighten me,
this has WHAT to do with the PRR???

  -  Claus (hoping I won't be perceived as a crumudgeon)


From:           	PKMac101@aol.com
Date sent:      	Wed, 6 Jun 2001 20:16:25 EDT
Subject:        	Re: [PRR] Amtrack in trouble again!!!!
To:             	PRR-Talk@dsop.com

> Dave and List. 
>      NS has enough of their own finanical problems although the their stock 
> has been doing better lately but maybe BNSF is backing them finacially for 
> their own future ventures. Rumors have been rampant on BNSF finanical support 
> for a while and there is suppose to be new run through service coast to coast 
> with there priority trains so lets see where the chips fall and what may be 
> in the future on a transcontinental railroad.
>   The future of what is left of a one time fabulous passenger service and 
> network may very well be gone forever as no class one railroad wanted 
> psgr.service before as it is a money loser and tied up valuable track time 
> and they surely would not support it in todays railroad business environment.
>  This is only my humble one person opinion as a railroad employee and not 
> meant to offend anyone as I hope a workable solution prevails to save Amtrak 
> and what is left of todays Psgr. service. I am sure there will be heavy 
> discussions on boths side of this thread for a while.
> 
> Pat McKinney
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to 
> "listserv@dsop.com".
> 



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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:32:09 -0400

>who holds the CR copyrights?  NS?  i hope not.


There is STILL a "Conrail" (Shared Assets) which must certainly own all
legal rights to the corporate name and logo.

But I can't imagine any company refusing permission to a museum for such a
project as we're discussing--except... maybe...  UPS?

They wouldn't let a model manufacturer replicate their logo on scale trucks.


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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 00:33:59 EDT
Subject: [PRR-FAX] PO&D

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:44:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:

<< Message: 1
    Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:01:22 -0000
    From: prr_willy@hotmail.com
 Subject: PRR entry to Detroit, further comment
 
 A couple of letters on this topic have mentioned the name 
 Pennsylvania, Ohio and Detroit, in terms that suggest that it was the 
 company which established the route from Toledo to Detroit.
 
 Not so.
 
 From Burgess and Kennedy, page 539: "The Pennsylvania-Detroit Railroad 
 Company was incorporated on February 27, 1917..."
 
 Same book, page 558: "On June 7, 1924, the Cincinnati, Lebanon and 
 Northern; the Cleveland, Akron and Cincinnati; the Toledo, Columbus 
 and Ohio River; the Manufacturers Railway; and the 
 Pennsylvania-Detroit [...] were consolidated by agreement into The 
 Pennsylvania, Ohio and Detroit Railroad Company. This consolidation 
 was not approved by the Interstate Commerce Commission until December 
 10, 1925, and the new company executed a lease of its property to the 
 Pennsylvania Railroad dated April 29, 1926, which was approved by the 
 Commission August 3, 1926."
 
 So, it appears that the PO&D did not exist until 1924 or 1925 
 (depending on whether you count the date of the agreement or the date 
 of ICC approval of the agreement). The original company was the 
 Pennsylvania-Detroit, which had a corporate life of 8 or 9 years, and 
 an operating life of 2 or 3 years before its demise in the 
 consolidation.
  >>
I've always assumed that the PO&D was a convenience to allow the Pennsy to 
lease/operate lines where the minority ownership was extinguished late.  The 
lines didn't really connect/form any sensible through routes, and no pretense 
of an independent operation was intended.  I believe (with a little help from 
the 1926 and 1930 Mundy's Earning Power of Railroads in Jack Fravert's 
estate) that the Pennsy held over 99% interest in the stock of most of its 
leased lines (PFtW&C, the expanded PCC&StL, the C&P, etc.) by 1920.  

These PO&D lines -- all of which might have been jettisoned without dire harm 
to the Pennsy system -- were probably bought out later.  For sure, they 
missed the massive integration taking place 1913-1922.  However, through the 
agency of the PO&D, the process was strung along into the second half of the 
1920's.  I can't find any hard evidence that, for example, PO&D cars were 
still marked for something more specific than "Pennsylvania".  But I'm still 
watching for later photos of cars lettered CL&N, or C&MV, etc.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder 
plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and 
other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone 502-426-0089 (8am to 8pm please)
Fax same number
3800 Little Bend Road
Louisville, KY 40241-1625

"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 00:33:59 EDT
Subject: [PRR] PO&D

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:44:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:

<< Message: 1
    Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:01:22 -0000
    From: prr_willy@hotmail.com
 Subject: PRR entry to Detroit, further comment
 
 A couple of letters on this topic have mentioned the name 
 Pennsylvania, Ohio and Detroit, in terms that suggest that it was the 
 company which established the route from Toledo to Detroit.
 
 Not so.
 
 From Burgess and Kennedy, page 539: "The Pennsylvania-Detroit Railroad 
 Company was incorporated on February 27, 1917..."
 
 Same book, page 558: "On June 7, 1924, the Cincinnati, Lebanon and 
 Northern; the Cleveland, Akron and Cincinnati; the Toledo, Columbus 
 and Ohio River; the Manufacturers Railway; and the 
 Pennsylvania-Detroit [...] were consolidated by agreement into The 
 Pennsylvania, Ohio and Detroit Railroad Company. This consolidation 
 was not approved by the Interstate Commerce Commission until December 
 10, 1925, and the new company executed a lease of its property to the 
 Pennsylvania Railroad dated April 29, 1926, which was approved by the 
 Commission August 3, 1926."
 
 So, it appears that the PO&D did not exist until 1924 or 1925 
 (depending on whether you count the date of the agreement or the date 
 of ICC approval of the agreement). The original company was the 
 Pennsylvania-Detroit, which had a corporate life of 8 or 9 years, and 
 an operating life of 2 or 3 years before its demise in the 
 consolidation.
  >>
I've always assumed that the PO&D was a convenience to allow the Pennsy to 
lease/operate lines where the minority ownership was extinguished late.  The 
lines didn't really connect/form any sensible through routes, and no pretense 
of an independent operation was intended.  I believe (with a little help from 
the 1926 and 1930 Mundy's Earning Power of Railroads in Jack Fravert's 
estate) that the Pennsy held over 99% interest in the stock of most of its 
leased lines (PFtW&C, the expanded PCC&StL, the C&P, etc.) by 1920.  

These PO&D lines -- all of which might have been jettisoned without dire harm 
to the Pennsy system -- were probably bought out later.  For sure, they 
missed the massive integration taking place 1913-1922.  However, through the 
agency of the PO&D, the process was strung along into the second half of the 
1920's.  I can't find any hard evidence that, for example, PO&D cars were 
still marked for something more specific than "Pennsylvania".  But I'm still 
watching for later photos of cars lettered CL&N, or C&MV, etc.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder 
plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and 
other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone 502-426-0089 (8am to 8pm please)
Fax same number
3800 Little Bend Road
Louisville, KY 40241-1625

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 01:39:17 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Helix Humpers coming back...

Hey Yuze Gize,

Here is an excerpt from my August MAINLINE MODELER Scuttlebutt Column I 
thought I would share with you all ... now Dang it go out and subscribe to 
this magazine... 3^)  What till you see what Kris Kollar's up to again... 
ssssshhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

"ALLIANCE LOCOMOTIVE PRODUCTS, INC. 
P O BOX 2112 
Alliance, Ohio 44601
(330) 823-9133 VOX

I receive good mail today from the folks at ALLIANCE LOCOMOTIVE Products as 
they have announce that the company has purchased the Alco Products line of 
Helix Humper replacement can motors and accessories. This line has been 
unavailable for over a year and as of now there are some limited quantities 
of a few items available.  These folks expect to have the entire line 
available by this printing. New products are forthcoming as well as 
improvements to the existing line as well.  A new catalog and new numbering 
system will be implemented.  A web page is forth coming and you can obtain 
more information with an SSAE for the time being..."

Greg Martin 

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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 02:24:27 -0400

> But I can't imagine any company refusing permission to a museum for such a
> project as we're discussing--except... maybe...  UPS? >>
>
>
> Hey! Now theres an idea. . . Maybe we should repaint it UPS ! ! ! !   :-0
>
>Jon S.


That's not as far-fetched as you may think.  Shortly after the Conrail
take-over, when it first became apparent that the Norfolk Southern was
neither interested in nor capable of preserving the Conrail freight volume
and service, reports continued to circulate for some time about outside
interests purchasing NS stock.  Most frequently discussed were BNSF--about
whom rumors continue to persist--and UPS (to save their intermodal
business).

The crews were actually talking about brown locomotives with gold logos, and
being issued brown uniforms.

That talk has largely died down now as it becomes increasingly apparent that
creating a fibre optic cable network is the Number One Prioirty of the
Norfolk Southern.

Strange, indeed, how history unfolds!




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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 08:47:55 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Capturing the Flavor of the PRR on Your Model Railroad
From: Jerry Britton 

Paul Backenstose gave a talk on the above at the recent annual convention of
the PRRT&HS.

His handout is now available via the Modeling section of Keystone Crossings.

Thanks, Paul!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 09:21:00 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Bowser GLa ETA
From: Jerry Britton 

I have received the final piece of info from Lee English at Bowser...

The HO scale GLa hoppers that I announced last evening are due to ship this
October.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: "Bill Bigler" 
Subject: [PRR] A Solution for Amtrak (long)
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:28:44 -0400

Jerry and List,

First, while some feel this is "off topic,"  I think it is right on, as it
deals with rail passenger service over the old PRR in addition to other
places.  Rather than complain, I am offering some suggested solutions for
United States rail passenger service.

1.  Put Amtrak under a board of directors made up of representatives from
Amtrak, government, some of the larger freight railroads which host Amtrak,
people from other transportation industries such as airlines (horrors!),
commuter rail organizations,  intra-city rail organizations like the Chicago
Metra system, and some very bright creative people from successful think
tanks.

2.  Benchmark successful rail transportation systems from other parts of the
world (Europe, Japan, rest of Asia, etc).  Ask them for their
recommendations and proposed solutions including costs, methods of funding,
timing, etc.

3.  Recognize that the United States of Americal has some outstanding rail
passenger systems that compare fovorably with the world's best, including
the Chicago, New York City, and Boston commuter systems, and intra-city rail
passenger systems like Boston's MTA, New York City's subways, and many other
LRV systems.  What can we learn from these?

4.  Put the government on notice (by the taxpayers) that we expect the
government to support and fund to the extent necessary a national rail
passenger system, funded by revenues, tax dollars, and by creating a level
playing field where all modes of transportation (freight rail, shipping,
bus, taxi, etc.) are all taxed exactly the same way and subject to laws that
are as identical as possible.

5.  Require the freight railroads to upgrade their track and facilities to
allow Amtrak to run at ever increasing speeds from the present 79mph to 100,
then a few years later 125, 140, etc.  Amtrak will pays\ the freight
railroads to run it's trains; the freight railroads will pay substantial
financial penalties for every late Amtrak arrival at all stations on the
line, to the extent that the delays are caused by the freight railroads,
speed restrictions, preferential dispatching, etc.  Amtrak will pay
substantial finanancial penalties for holding up trains on the freight
railroads.  These penalties could be set up like the current penalties the
freight railroads pay for late arrivals of UPS trailers etc.

6.  Require the government to make low cost loans available to the freight
railroads for the investment required.  Failure to "cooperate" by the
freight railroads requires the freight railroads to fire their entire boards
of directors and officers.  These fired people would be barred for life from
working in the transportation industry.

7.  Tax breaks and tax penalties would be levied against Amtrak and the
freight railroads alike for not participating or cooperating.

8.  Vote out of office any elected government official who fails to get on
board with the program .

Tough solution?  Hardball?  You betcha!  If we can put a man on the moon and
return him safely to Earth in less than 10 years, we can make this work in
less than 10 years and never look back.  Passenger rail service can and
should be competitive in terms of total travel time with airline travel
(terminal to terminal speed) and/or center city to center city and cost for
distances up to some pre-determined distance (1000 miles?)  It's time to
stop the BS and pussy-footing around and get to work all pulling together
for a solution!

By the way, I'm not a communist spy.  I'm a military vet, Viet Nam vet, and
one of the biggest capitalists and free enterprise supporters you'll find
anywhere.

Let's refine this proposal to make it the best we possibly can - we have
some of the brightest people around right on this list - and circulate the
proposal to everyone we possibly can.  Let's think creative solutions,
rather than fault finding and finger pointing and reasons why we "can't!"

Submit our refined proposal to the head of Amtrak, our elected government
officials, CEO's of the freight railroads, CEO's of the airlines, etc.  Anyo
ne have e-mail addresses for any of these people?

Next problem. . . . . ?

Just one man's opinion.

Respectfully submitted,

William C. Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. &
     downtown Williamsport WWII


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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:02:23 EDT
Subject: [PRR] A  Solution for Amtrak 

    SCRAP IT! 
    Everything except the N. E. Corridor is just a big welfare project. 
Otherwise mostly otherwise unemployable people running near empty trains for 
the unemployed; retired and nostalgic- 
    Make the states & cities pay for the N. E. corridor and put the rest into 
museums, out of the way of tax PAYING freight railroads.

R. E. Ross
Cleveland

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Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 19:05:09 -0400
From: Dale Dembinski 
Subject: Re: [PRR] A Solution for Amtrak (long)

Bill, your proposal is sound and practical.  But that's not how
Washington works...

The trucking industry association and road builder lobbyists (and the
airlines serving the NEC) would instantly kill your proposal.  They
would suggest that now would be a good time to pave over the tracks and
turn the rail routes into another highway system - think of all the jobs
that would be created!

There has always been strong competition between the various modes of
transportation, even during the years of the PRR (listmaster note:
tie-in to PRR!). The big difference is that the other modes of
transportation have been much more successful at lobbying in Washington
for dollars and for favorable legislation. Their needs seem more
"essential" because there is a better selling job done - they get the
"yea" votes in the congress and the senate.

The biggest challenge is for Amtrak to somehow build an alliance among
ALL the various special interest groups that its success would benefit,
and then orchestrate a *combined* lobbying effort in Washington to give
Amtrak the kinds of money that other groups have received for years.
And they will be fighting the other transportation special interest
groups all the way.




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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:09:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Derrick J Brashear 
Subject: Re: [PRR] A  Solution for Amtrak 

On Thu, 7 Jun 2001 VVA249@aol.com wrote:

>     SCRAP IT! 
>     Everything except the N. E. Corridor is just a big welfare project. 

Unlike, say, the public highway network, which of course pays for itself.

Oh, wait.

And of course now we're off-topic, for sure. But remember that it was
thinking similar to this (railroads pay taxes and get nothing, whereas
highways are built using tax money only some of which comes from liquid
fuels taxes and the like) did a lot to help the Pennsy into the situation
where they felt a merger with the NYC might be helpful, and even that
wasn't enough, obviously.

-D



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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:41:00 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Models On The Curve

List,
I gotta say I was surprised when I checked my mail tonight not to find the 
PRR Talk
List a buz with talk of this already. Maybe (and this would be a first!) I'm 
the first to
recieve my July issue of MR. What I'm referring to is the two page (14 & 15) 
Athearn ad for the new Genesis F Units. It features model F units 
superimposed on the real
Horseshoe Curve complete with a TucTrain snaked out around the full curve. 
Now 
I'm here to say that I'm a die hard steam fan from the get go, and not a real 
big 
Athearn fan. . . but this ad is really sharp ! ! The over-all layout is 
beautiful with
back ground information and pictures on both the prototype models by Greg 
Martin,
the prototype units themself and info on Greg as well. I guess, looking at 
the picture,
the scenario would have to be that the Athearn Units are light snappers 
running
"wrong main" back to Altoona. I guess this as it would be rare that light 
helpers
would run up grade. . . and the fact that the headlight is off on the Athearn 
Units
says they're running down grade. Over all. . . Hats off  to Athearn for a 
great looking 
Ad ! ! ! 
Jon S.
PRRT&HS #3079

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From: "Claus Schlund" 
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:06:03 -0700
Subject: [PRR] P70 deluxe cars

Hi everyone,

I've been perusing the wonderful
recently-published book "Passenger Equipment
of the Pennsylvania Railroad Vol 1: Coaches".

One of the items that caught my interest is the
mention on page 4 of four "P70 deluxe" cars in 1929.
The four cars were numbered 7207, 7208, 1295, 1702.
The book claims these cars had seating
capacities of 66, 49, 52, and 52 respectively.

Anyone have any info on these? Were these built
as this class, or were these rebuilds? What
was the intended service? What did they
look like? Any photos?

I looked thru my references, and I was able to turn
only a litle info. A drawing of "P70R, Deluxe"
car number 7208 appears on page 13 of
Wayner's "Pennsy Car Plans". Also, the
07/31 ORER (Westerfield CDROM) lists each of
these cars, always as part of a larger series,
and indicates
all four of these cars as having less than 70
seats, with the other cars in the class having
more than 70 seats. I looked thru the Hagley
negatives list in the years 1928-1930 hoping
the cars might have been photographed (likely if they
were a conversion done at Altoona) but that turned
up nothing.

Any ideas?

  -  Claus



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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:17:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] A Solution for Amtrak (long)
From: Fred G Rea 

Bill, I like many aspects of your ideas.  One thing to remember.  Even
though we are conservatives, we recognize there is a role for government
to ensure the citizens have certain essential services.  A good
transportation system is one of them.  It is ridiculous to subsidize most
modes of transport, then expect rail to be short term profitable. 

 Most importantly we recognize that the freight railroads are stock
holder owned private organizations.  However, most railroads received
sizeable subsidies in the form of rights to emanate domain and land
grants  in exchange for agreeing to provide essential services.  
Passenger service was one of them. 

In 1971 AMTRAK was formed to relive them of their obligation to operate
their passenger services.  In exchange, the railroads agreed to allow
AMTRAK to operate over their tracks.  Now there is little corporate
memory of 1971.  The railroads now see only AMTRAK as an intruder rather
than welcome relief from an old obligation. 

We must re establish the public's and the railroad's awareness of
government and railroad obligations to AMTRAK.

Fred Rea
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:17:38 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] A Solution for Amtrak (long)
From: Fred G Rea 

Bill, I like many aspects of your ideas.  One thing to remember.  Even
though we are conservatives, we recognize there is a role for government
to ensure the citizens have certain essential services.  A good
transportation system is one of them.  It is ridiculous to subsidize most
modes of transport, then expect rail to be short term profitable. 

 Most importantly we recognize that the freight railroads are stock
holder owned private organizations.  However, most railroads received
sizeable subsidies in the form of rights to emanate domain and land
grants  in exchange for agreeing to provide essential services.  
Passenger service was one of them. 

In 1971 AMTRAK was formed to relive them of their obligation to operate
their passenger services.  In exchange, the railroads agreed to allow
AMTRAK to operate over their tracks.  Now there is little corporate
memory of 1971.  The railroads now see only AMTRAK as an intruder rather
than welcome relief from an old obligation. 

We must re establish the public's and the railroad's awareness of
government and railroad obligations to AMTRAK.

Fred Rea
________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:22:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] A  Solution for Amtrak
From: Fred G Rea 

Mr Ross:

	I take great exception to your remark regarding AMTRAK employees.  I see
them as, in most cases, hard working and dedicated people.  How much
contact have you had with AMTRAK employees?

Fred Rea
________________________________________________________________
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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: [PRR] Amtrak
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:01:13 -0400

Gentlemen:

I have spent my entire career in the marketing end of the railroad business,
starting out with the PRR and I can tell you that every solution put forth
so far on this list has been very simplistic. Some feel there is an endless
fount of money available to freight railroads (not true), others think
Amtrak employees are parasites (not true), or that highways get a free ride
(not true). I am truly alarmed that someone who fought for his country would
suggest denying the right of owners (the stockholders of freight railroads)
to manage their properties.

Very few eastern railroads were recipients of land grants, and the railroads
that were repaid the government many times over in reduced compensation for
handling the mail..

Since none of us know enough about it to solve the problem, suggest we drop
the subject and bring it up with our senators and representative if we feel
strongly about it.

Gregg Mahlkov


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From: "Bill Lane" 
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:09:45 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29 brakes

Hi All,

I am wondering if there is a significant visual difference from the side
view (i.e. moving train) between a freight and REA X-29 A B brake system.
This would not be taking into account the tall brake stand wheel and
mechanical (Ajax etc.) brake system. I am interested in cars that would have
been active in their various shopping eras from approximately 1945 to 1957.

Thank You
Bill


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From: "Bill Lane" 
Subject: [PRR] X29 brakes
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:09:45 -0400

Hi All,

I am wondering if there is a significant visual difference from the side
view (i.e. moving train) between a freight and REA X-29 A B brake system.
This would not be taking into account the tall brake stand wheel and
mechanical (Ajax etc.) brake system. I am interested in cars that would have
been active in their various shopping eras from approximately 1945 to 1957.

Thank You
Bill


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 01:49:35 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak

In a message dated 6/7/01 10:16:42 PM Central Daylight Time, 
mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:

<< Very few eastern railroads were recipients of land grants, and the 
railroads
 that were repaid the government many times over in reduced compensation for
 handling the mail.. >>

An adder, not a correction: I am under the impression that the  land grant 
railroads also more than paid back the value with troop and equipment 
movements in two world wars .

Bob Zoeller

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From: PRR5499@att.net
Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 12:56:55 +0000


  Amtrak was a good idea, but if it couldn't survive on 
its own within a specified period, then it should have 
been dropped.
  This country had a lot of trackage that was torn up. 
The line from Columbus to Cincinnati via the"Big 
Four",and Columbus to Cleveland via the C.A.& C.
 All were almost all torn up. This is just a small part 
of the rail system. Between the badly run 
government,greedy executives,greedy and corrupt unions,
 outragous taxes,and non-rail transportation,things fell 
apart. Not to say,the real rail people died off.

                                     My .02 worth
                                          E.Case 
> Gentlemen:
> 
> I have spent my entire career in the marketing end of the railroad business,
> starting out with the PRR and I can tell you that every solution put forth
> so far on this list has been very simplistic. Some feel there is an endless
> fount of money available to freight railroads (not true), others think
> Amtrak employees are parasites (not true), or that highways get a free ride
> (not true). I am truly alarmed that someone who fought for his country would
> suggest denying the right of owners (the stockholders of freight railroads)
> to manage their properties.
> 
> Very few eastern railroads were recipients of land grants, and the railroads
> that were repaid the government many times over in reduced compensation for
> handling the mail..
> 
> Since none of us know enough about it to solve the problem, suggest we drop
> the subject and bring it up with our senators and representative if we feel
> strongly about it.
> 
> Gregg Mahlkov
> 
> 
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From: "Rob Schoenberg" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] P70 deluxe cars
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 12:47:59 -0400

My web site has the class diagrams for P70R, Deluxe #7208 and 7207.  The
7208 diagram is probably the same one as in the Wayner book....  The
elevation diagram is shared with the one for the P70,P70D,PC70R,P70R and
P70DR...

They're all links off the following page...
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=coa&sz=sm

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Claus
> Schlund
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 10:06 PM
> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: [PRR] P70 deluxe cars
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I've been perusing the wonderful
> recently-published book "Passenger Equipment
> of the Pennsylvania Railroad Vol 1: Coaches".
>
> One of the items that caught my interest is the
> mention on page 4 of four "P70 deluxe" cars in 1929.
> The four cars were numbered 7207, 7208, 1295, 1702.
> The book claims these cars had seating
> capacities of 66, 49, 52, and 52 respectively.
>
> Anyone have any info on these? Were these built
> as this class, or were these rebuilds? What
> was the intended service? What did they
> look like? Any photos?
>
> I looked thru my references, and I was able to turn
> only a litle info. A drawing of "P70R, Deluxe"
> car number 7208 appears on page 13 of
> Wayner's "Pennsy Car Plans". Also, the
> 07/31 ORER (Westerfield CDROM) lists each of
> these cars, always as part of a larger series,
> and indicates
> all four of these cars as having less than 70
> seats, with the other cars in the class having
> more than 70 seats. I looked thru the Hagley
> negatives list in the years 1928-1930 hoping
> the cars might have been photographed (likely if they
> were a conversion done at Altoona) but that turned
> up nothing.
>
> Any ideas?
>
>   -  Claus
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 16:25:18 -0400
From: st96ap87 
Subject: RE: [PRR] A  Solution for Amtrak

Thanks for the compliment! Will you be throwing anymore stones at some of the 
members of this list.

Sincerely, unemployable Amtrak employee


>===== Original Message From VVA249@aol.com =====
>    SCRAP IT!
>    Everything except the N. E. Corridor is just a big welfare project.
>Otherwise mostly otherwise unemployable people running near empty trains for
>the unemployed; retired and nostalgic-
>    Make the states & cities pay for the N. E. corridor and put the rest into
>museums, out of the way of tax PAYING freight railroads.
>
>R. E. Ross
>Cleveland
>
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From: "Zak" 
Subject: [PRR] Amtrak
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:17:24 -0400

Jerry, et all,

As I read all of this, I wonder what all of the Amtrak stuff has to do with
the PRR.  In front of me is an F7A shell in Amtrak livery.  I'm just waiting
for the parts to arrive to make it into a PRR engine....which I haven't seen
a lot of email (about PRR) generated on this net in the past two days.

Did I miss some messages?

Zak


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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 17:21:30 -0400

Barry Peltier inquired about Altoona railfanning, hobby shops, etc.....

Barry,

The Altoona railroad facilities are pretty much as they were... albeit lots
of NS logos around.  Hollidaysburg is filled with system freight cars and
little else, save for some incredible prototype "kit-bashing" on some
100-ton CNW covered hoppers that they're re-building into two-bay jobs.
You're probably aware of the political fight going on over the NS plans to
close the car shops.  The Juniata Shops are still going strong.  Of course
the Horseshoe Curve is very much in business.

As for hobby shops, there are two.  "Ye Olde Hobby Shop" is very
"traditional" and I leave that up to you.  He does have books.

I like "On the Right Track" which is just west/south of ALTO Tower almost
underneath the mainline (next to the Hostess day-old bakery shop).  That's a
FAMILY business, complete with two cute pooches who are probably not the
greatest guard dogs but they're fun.  The son pretty much runs it and
there's an operating layout and a collection on miscellaneous "junque."
It's worth a stop if only because it's right near ALTO.

Be sure to hit the pedestrain overpass behind the Railroaders Memorial
Museum and adjacent Station Mall.  You won't believe it, if you haven't been
in Altoona for awhile.  And it's a great photo location, as is the hillside
just east of ALTO.

The Station Inn is definitely worthy of your attention.  I think the owner,
Tom Davis, is still on vacation in Canada.  But Sandy is in charge if Tom's
gone.  I imagine she can find you a room.

While you're in Gallitzin check out The Tunnel Inn--the old boro building.
It's sort of a "railfan's Hilton" now.  Really plush, but only open on
weekends, I think.

I can't let this go without a "plug" for my own place, The FALLSTON
FLAGSTOP, which is a TRUE bed-and-breakfast in my private home.  That's just
west of Conway Yard and covers the Pittsburgh area.  DO consider it should
you wander over this way some time.  As for hobby shops, we have many,
including A.B. CHARLES in Pittsburgh barely an hour away.  If Bud doesn't
have it, you'll probably have to go to Milwaukee for it.

My website is at www.forcomm.net/flagstop.

Hope this helps, and apologies for the blatant commercialism.  But no one is
more of a Pennsy fan than I, and the above should give you some perspective.

Enjoy your trip!

Terry Stuart





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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:36:27 -0400
Subject: STOP THREAD - Re: [PRR] Amtrak
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/8/01 5:17 PM, Zak at (s2d2@panax.com) wrote:

> As I read all of this, I wonder what all of the Amtrak stuff has to do with
> the PRR.  In front of me is an F7A shell in Amtrak livery.  I'm just waiting
> for the parts to arrive to make it into a PRR engine....which I haven't seen
> a lot of email (about PRR) generated on this net in the past two days.
> 
> Did I miss some messages?
> 
List:

The connection between PRR and Amtrak is a very thin one, at best. I have
allowed the thread to continue during the slow time of PRR discussion, since
there is some connection.

However, this morning I have many off-list requests for this thread to stop.
so, at this time, I ask that the discussion cease. There have been some good
points made, but further discussions should take place on another list.

Thank you.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, Listmaster


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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 08:41:15 -0400
Subject: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
From: Jerry Britton 

Got my issue of "The Milepost" yesterday...the newsletter of the "Friends of
the Railroad Museum" (Strasburg).

In it is a request for feedback. A few years ago the museum received a
Conrail GP30 in excellent condition, still including most of the original
electronics. It will be repainted this fall. The Railroad Museum of
Pennsylvania is requesting opinions on two possible paint schemes:

1. PRR Dark Green Locomotive Enamel -- as the loco first appeared when
originally purchased in 1963.

2. Conrail Blue -- as the loco last appeared in active duty.

The museum goes on to point out that they already have several PRR locos and
no Conrail locos.

Dare I suggest a third and unusual option:

3. One side in Conrail Blue and the other side in PRR DGLE.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 08:53:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?


Jerry, 
          There is a 3rd and 4th option too! How
about a Penn Central? No PC locos there either. I would rather see it in
Pennsy if it was orginally a PRR GP-30 though. Was it? Was it a Reading
unit? Hmmm, there's a thought too!....Gary. 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 09:09:34 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

I say Conrail BLUE!.

Why?

Conrail was a part of our heritage (especially in Pennsylvania) that we
can all reflect upon with pride. Their management was responsive to the
railfan community, and they generally took pride in everything they did.
They were good citizens in this state and in the communities that they
served. But better yet, the management and employees proved that you
could "make a silk purse our of a sows ear"!

The locomotive finished its mainline career as a Conrail engine and it
is fitting that it be exhibited as such. We need to start to recognize
Conrail as a fitting final successor to the PRR.


P.S. The museum will most likely get a better price for the paint job
since there must be gallons of BLUE remaining as surplus in Altoona

Bennett Levin

Gary Mittner wrote:
> 
> Jerry,
>           There is a 3rd and 4th option too! How
> about a Penn Central? No PC locos there either. I would rather see it in
> Pennsy if it was orginally a PRR GP-30 though. Was it? Was it a Reading
> unit? Hmmm, there's a thought too!....Gary.
> 
> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
> Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>
> 
> PRR Loco Pics:
> http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com
> 
> &
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
> and......
> 
> PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html
> 
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:29:00 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

Jerry:

How about the other option -- Penn Central.  If my memory is correct, the red 
(orange) and white PC logos were applied to several GP30's.  This would be 
the rarest possible scheme.

Rich Orr

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From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:36:41 -0400

I would second Mr. Levin's comment on the Conrail dress blues.   What best
sums up the history of how Conrail started than a survivor of the
Consolidation.

Cos

Cos Communications, Inc.
Home Page
Rail Road Pages

2. Conrail Blue -- as the loco last appeared in active duty.

The museum goes on to point out that they already have several PRR locos and
no Conrail locos.




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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 09:45:36 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

BTW, There was one PC boxcar painted with a white and YELLOW "worms in
love". It was parked at Race Street for several weeks in the biginning.
Are there any photos of it?

SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Jerry:
> 
> How about the other option -- Penn Central.  If my memory is correct, the red
> (orange) and white PC logos were applied to several GP30's.  This would be
> the rarest possible scheme.
> 
> Rich Orr
> 
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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 09:57:37 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

Talk about PC!

The best item to preserve is the Business Car assigned to David Bevan,
Car # 90.

This car was a scandal in itself having been clandestinly converted from
a B&O car to replace PRR 90 (Delaware) at the Wilmington shops and
having a million dollar interior installed at that time. The car is
being offered at auction at transhopnet.com.

SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Jerry:
> 
> How about the other option -- Penn Central.  If my memory is correct, the red
> (orange) and white PC logos were applied to several GP30's.  This would be
> the rarest possible scheme.
> 
> Rich Orr
> 
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:16:03 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

As much as I like Conrail Blue, I would suggest it would be better to 
memorialize it with diesel post-1976 .  Locomotives from the original PRR are 
rare and I would like to see the GP30 in delivered (as near as possible) 
condition with antennas, et al.

The danger of a Janus-version (different colors on different sides) is that 
some modeler (or manufacturer) 30 years from now will wind up duplicating it 
as a prototype  :-).

Just one man's opinion.

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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 11:06:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue

 
Hello List,
    Come on guys! Conrail blue? Conrail diesels are still running on NS
and CSX trains. 
    My first vote is for a PRR GP30 with antenna
and correct PRR style number boards. My second vote is Penn Central
Black. I model Pennsy-Penn Central. Yeah, I know. "You must have a screw
loose in your head" I still get a weekend pass from the doctor. He
models Penn Central too!
          Dave
  
   
   


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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 11:58:58 -0400
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue

List,
My vote is also for a PRR GP30 in DGLE with antenna and correct PRR style
number boards. Help keep PRR alive!!
Eddie
DR. EDMOND L. FREED
PRRT&HS # 156
MODELING THE C&PD IN HO


David Hopson wrote

> Hello List,
>     Come on guys! Conrail blue? Conrail diesels are still running on NS
> and CSX trains.
>     My first vote is for a PRR GP30 with antenna and correct PRR style
> number boards. My second vote is Penn Central Black. I model Pennsy-Penn
> Central. Yeah, I know. "You must have a screw loose in your head" I still
> get a weekend pass from the doctor. He models Penn Central too!
>           Dave
>
>
>



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 12:19:13 -0400

List:

I've got to agree with those advocating the "fresh from the factory" look
for the Strasburg GP30, although it is true there is virtually nothing out
there painted for Penn Central. OTOH, many of us would like to forget that
era!

Gregg Mahlkov
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
 List,
 My vote is also for a PRR GP30 in DGLE with antenna and correct PRR style
 number boards. Help keep PRR alive!!
 Eddie
 DR. EDMOND L. FREED
 PRRT&HS # 156
 MODELING THE C&PD IN HO


 David Hopson wrote

Hello List,
     Come on guys! Conrail blue? Conrail diesels are still running on NS
 and CSX trains.
  My first vote is for a PRR GP30 with antenna and correct PRR style
 number boards. My second vote is Penn Central Black. I model Pennsy-Penn
Central. Yeah, I know. "You must have a screw loose in your head" I still
 get a weekend pass from the doctor. He models Penn Central too!
 Dave
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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>
>


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From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" 
Subject: [PRR] PRR GP30
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 13:34:18 -0400

 
Why not take care of and improve the GP30 that is already in PRR?
http://www.wsbcos.com/prr2233.jpg
 
 
Cos
 
Cos Communications, Inc.
Home Page  
Rail Road Pages  
 


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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:21:03 EDT
Subject: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

List
I think all this talk of Conrail Blue or PC black for the GP 30 at The RR 
Museum 
of PA is crazy. The way I see it, is that the mission statement of all true 
museums
is the preserver history the way it Originally was.  With that in mind, The 
only historically to restore her is in PRR DGLE, Correct PRR number boards 
and of course train phone antennas. The way she Originally looked. That will 
be my vote !! 
Jon Sbordone
FRRM of PA
PRRT&HS #3079

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 14:39:37 -0400

The Cos:

I can see the "what", but "who", "when", "where" and "why"???

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Wayne S. Betty (The Cos)" 
To: "PRR Talk" 
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 1:34 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRR GP30


> 
> Why not take care of and improve the GP30 that is already in PRR?
> http://www.wsbcos.com/prr2233.jpg
>  
>  
> Cos
>  
> Cos Communications, Inc.
> Home Page  
> Rail Road Pages  
>  
> 
> 
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> 
> 


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Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 16:04:58 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

I am not so sure that is what the context of 'original" really is:

for instance: The E-7 is far from correct as an original! Should it have
been painted DGLE? Why weren't the lifting lugs removed? How come there
is no shroud on the coupler?

I think any piece that comes into the museum can rightfully be painted
and restored to any authentic color and configuration that the piece was
in while in active service. Do we change the pilot on the 6755 and
change the headlight? 

I believe as long as it is authentic the exact time period does not have
to reflect as orignal or new.

That's my two and a half cents!

JONS6755@aol.com wrote:
> 
> List
> I think all this talk of Conrail Blue or PC black for the GP 30 at The RR
> Museum
> of PA is crazy. The way I see it, is that the mission statement of all true
> museums
> is the preserver history the way it Originally was.  With that in mind, The
> only historically to restore her is in PRR DGLE, Correct PRR number boards
> and of course train phone antennas. The way she Originally looked. That will
> be my vote !!
> Jon Sbordone
> FRRM of PA
> PRRT&HS #3079
> 
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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 16:05:25 -0400 

PRR Listers:

I agree with the Doctor. It would be great to see the GP-30 with trainphone
antennas.

Ted Andrews
PRRT&HS 2338 (a PRR GP-35 number)
Modeling the PRR Fort Wayne Line and South Bend Branch in Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: Dr. Edmond L. Freed [mailto:docfoot@bellsouth.net]
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 10:59 AM
To: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue


List,
My vote is also for a PRR GP30 in DGLE with antenna and correct PRR style
number boards. Help keep PRR alive!!
Eddie
DR. EDMOND L. FREED
PRRT&HS # 156
MODELING THE C&PD IN HO


David Hopson wrote

> Hello List,
>     Come on guys! Conrail blue? Conrail diesels are still running on NS
> and CSX trains.
>     My first vote is for a PRR GP30 with antenna and correct PRR style
> number boards. My second vote is Penn Central Black. I model Pennsy-Penn
> Central. Yeah, I know. "You must have a screw loose in your head" I still
> get a weekend pass from the doctor. He models Penn Central too!
>           Dave
>
>
>



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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 20:00:10 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

In a message dated 6/9/01 1:10:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< I am not so sure that is what the context of 'original" really is: >>

Bennett,
The way I'm seeing "original" (in this case anyway) is that The GP30 was
originaly PRR. . . and thats the way she should be restored. Not so much in
the last road she served. I agree that Conrail did much for, and has created 
a strong history of railroading in the Great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
 I'm sure there will be plenty more locomotives donated to The Museum,
that served Conrail more than the GP30 (such as an SD40-2), that can be 
restored in that atractive blue to honor Conrail. 
Jon S.
 

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From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR GP30
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:21:34 -0400

If I remember correctly, its sitting north of Reading PA above or around the
Temple area on Route 61?  I'm not that good with Northern Berks county.
It's sitting there with a cabin too.

Cos

Cos Communications, Inc.
Home Page
Rail Road Pages


The Cos:

I can see the "what", but "who", "when", "where" and "why"???

Gregg Mahlkov
	Cos,  Is this photo taken at the RR Museum of PA?   Thanks   Jim Lash
sjlash@tcis.net


>
> Why not take care of and improve the GP30 that is already in PRR?
> http://www.wsbcos.com/prr2233.jpg
>
>
> Cos
>
> Cos Communications, Inc.
> Home Page 
> Rail Road Pages 



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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 21:36:54 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30

Cos,
I don't know how to break this to you. . . and I'm surprised someone eles on 
the
list hasen't already. . . . but, #2233 IS the GP30 at The Railroad Museum of 
PA !
http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/roster/derostr.htm
Jon S.

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From: "Al Buchan" 
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Set Up Running and Towers
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:01:17 -0400

On 26 May 2001 John Bobsin made a comment about the possible degree of
freedom that block operators had on the PRR. I think others and myself have
adequately addressed this issue since then. However, John also asked about
the uniqueness of PRR block-limit stations and their signals. I really don't
know if any other railroad used that type of block station besides the PRR,
PRSL and LIRR.

Al



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From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR GP30
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:01:26 -0400

It shows you what happens when you keep your head in the sand - I haven't
been to the Museum for about 2 years, although I have been on the SRR
several times - Just have not looked in on the Museum - no excuses just
going down in flames here!
Sorry all!!!

Cos

Cos Communications, Inc.
Home Page
Rail Road Pages

-----Original Message-----
From: JONS6755@aol.com [mailto:JONS6755@aol.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 9:37 PM
To: Wayne Betty; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GP30

Cos,
I don't know how to break this to you. . . and I'm surprised someone eles on
the
list hasen't already. . . . but, #2233 IS the GP30 at The Railroad Museum of
PA !
http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/roster/derostr.htm
Jon S.


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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:52:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Cab Signals/ PRR-CB&Q Run Through


Hello List, 
    I was just watching a video tape of the PRR in the 1960s and I saw
something in the footage that I never notice before. It shows a CB&Q
GP30 leading a PRR freight headed east at Valparaso on the mainline.
    Can someone tell me how this is possible? I thought PRR units must
lead off-road power because of the cab signals. I even slowed down the
tape to see if maybe there was a PRR signal box under the engineer's
front window. Anyone know about this?
      The tape is(Green Frog) "Penn Central" Vol.1-Tape One.
Don't let the name fool you. Lots of pre merger PRR shots. 
      
       Thanks, Dave


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From: "E. Mike" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Signals/ PRR-CB&Q Run Through
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 04:17:00 -0000

The CB&Q Line from Chicago Union Station to Aroura IL. has standard US&S 4 
aspect cab signals and any train equipped to operate on that line would be 
able to operate on any PRR line with CSS.
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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 04:45:09 -0400

PRR Green, of course.  However please excuse me if I'm wrong, but didn't the
Pennsy have black GPs?  I'm probably wrong, and maybe it was just their SWs.
Zak



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From: "Greg Stone" 
Subject: [PRR] GP-30 paint
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 08:02:58 -0400

I vote for the Pennsy paint scheme. Is the paint on it now original? If so,
it should remain with a good touch up on rust spots.
    My reasoning for PRR paint is that there are very few Pennsy engines
remaining compared to the Conrail engines. In time some engines will come to
the museum that were Conrail origin. i.e. built during the Conrail era. At
that time Conrail will be more distant history rather than recent history.
If someone wants to see Conrail engines, they are still on the road, Pennsy
engines are not.
--Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
Special interest Renovo Yards
Always looking for photos or info on the Renovo Yards



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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:10:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q Run Through

Don,
    I watched the tape again and all the power in the consist is in
"run-8" (heat plumes from all units). One shot shows a CB&Q Geep leading
a brace of UP units and no PRR in the consist.
    One thing that bugs me is: How far west did the PRR diesels go on
these CB&Q freights? There are published photos of CB&Q and Union
Pacific run-through diesels in Waverly Yard in N.J. Did the PRR units
ever go all the way to Denver.
                Dave


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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:19:58 EDT
Subject: [PRR] PRR GP30 2233

List,
To answer a few questions that have come up in the "On Going Debate of PRR 
DLEG vs Conrail Blue".  First on all, The RR Museun in Strasburg only has 1 
(one)
GP30, the 2233. She was owned and operated by the late Richard Sanders on the
former West Shore Railroad a small tourist/freight railroad located just 
north of
Lewisburg, PA. The 2233 was donated to the Musum by Julia Sanders in 1998
as a memorial to her late husband, Richard, who passed away in 1994. 
To answer another question. The locomotive was acquired from Conrail in 1987 
by Mr. Sanders in Conrail Blue and was repainted at that time. So the "PRR 
Paint"
scheme she wears now is not origanal.
I hope this helps clear up some questions. 

Jon S.

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Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:57:31 -0400
From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net
Subject: [PRR] FA2 dynamic brakes

I recently purchased a set(ABBA) of P2K FA2s.  They are undec. and I want to add the Cal Scale dynamic brake assembly to the roof.  The plan is to cut a hole.  However, I have been unable to find a reliable dimension for the assembly placement on the roof.  I have Pennsy Power books, the Hundman FA2 book, the Mainline Modeler article on detailing the FA2 for Pennsy.  The best eyeball I have been able to come up with is approximately 4 inches between the hatch with the exhaust stack and the rear of the dynamic brake rear vent.  There are lots of nice angle shots of the roof but none straight on.  Since I am doing four bodies, I want to get it right.  Any help will be appreciated. 
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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:26:26 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] FA2 dynamic brakes

Well, to whomever...
perhaps I can help as I wrote the modeling article... 

bearcreekwest@netscape.net writes:

<< I recently purchased a set(ABBA) of P2K FA2s.  They are undec. and I want 
to add the Cal Scale dynamic brake assembly to the roof.>>

You will need to add the dynamic brake grills too... I used the etchings from 
Details Associates... 

<< The plan is to cut a hole.>>

I am not sure why you are cutting a hole or where...

<<< However, I have been unable to find a reliable dimension for the assembly 
placement on the roof.>>

Are we talking the dynamic brakes? 

<>

Where is the dynamic brake vent?... are you talking about the generator 
exhaust fan vent?

<>

So are you in search of the dynamic brake positioning / Email me off line...

Greg Martin 

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From: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:00:56 EDT
Subject: [PRR] GP-30 Paint Scheme

List:

          In regards to the paint scheme for the GP-30 at Strasburg, I 
personally feel that this is a "no brainer".  PRR Dark Green Locomotive 
Enamel with all the correct trainphone stanchions attached, just the way God 
brought her into this world in 1962.  
If you want to represent Conrail, I feel that the most attractive Locomotives 
in their fleet were the late EMD SD's with the wide comfort cabs, Conrail 
Quality Scheme and the black around the windshield giving the engine that 
"Racoon" look.

                                                                 Gus Minardi

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From: "Don Millbranth" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q Run Through
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:02:08 -0500

Dave..
    Sorry I can't be of more assistance. Unfortunately the people I knew
that could help are no longer with us..
    It is times like this that I wish I had paid more attention to what was
going on, or had a better memory, or both. I moved from there, mile post
417.4 east of Valparaiso (more precisely Wanatah where the MONON and the PRR
crossed) in the late 50's and didn't return until the late 80's. Of course
by then the PRR was no longer. In '98 I again left there coming south just
as CSX and N&S were deciding what to do with that section. I recall foreign
power moving on freight in both directions then back then. Usually what
caught our eye was the PRR taking new power to a line somewhere west.
    Anyway, enough of my rattling on. This isn't answering your question.
Take care.
Don




---- Original Message -----
From: "David Hopson" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:10 AM
Subject: [PRR] Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q Run Through


> Don,
>     I watched the tape again and all the power in the consist is in
> "run-8" (heat plumes from all units). One shot shows a CB&Q Geep leading
> a brace of UP units and no PRR in the consist.
>     One thing that bugs me is: How far west did the PRR diesels go on
> these CB&Q freights? There are published photos of CB&Q and Union
> Pacific run-through diesels in Waverly Yard in N.J. Did the PRR units
> ever go all the way to Denver.
>                 Dave
>
>
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From: "Steve Hoxie" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] FA2 dynamic brakes
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:41:32 -0500

bearcreekwest@netscape.net wrote--
>

> I recently purchased a set(ABBA) of P2K FA2s.  They are undec. and I >want
to add the Cal Scale dynamic brake assembly to the roof.  The plan >is to
cut a hole.
>
Stop!  Don't cut the hole!  Sand or file the bottom of the Calscale part
until it lies flat on the shell and is thinner.

And, Greg, please keep it on list so we can all benefit.  Thanks!

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



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From: "Dick Taylor" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q Run Through
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:41:35 -0500

Dave,
I have a photo (unfortunately a slide, or I would scan it and send it off to
you.) of a matched set of Pennsy, CB&Q, and UP GP30's that had just arrived
in Denver from Chicago. Apparently the run-through to Denver was a fairly
common occurrence as I saw a number of Pennsy units being serviced at the
Burlington shops. Off of the top of my head beside the GP-30's I remember
seeing U25B's and GP35's. I think I remember seeing an Alco there once, but
I will have to check my slides to see if I am having a "senior moment"
They all had the "Radio Equipped" sticker on them-no inductive trainphones
in those parts!
Dick Taylor


----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hopson" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:10 AM
Subject: [PRR] Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q Run Through


> Don,
>     I watched the tape again and all the power in the consist is in
> "run-8" (heat plumes from all units). One shot shows a CB&Q Geep leading
> a brace of UP units and no PRR in the consist.
>     One thing that bugs me is: How far west did the PRR diesels go on
> these CB&Q freights? There are published photos of CB&Q and Union
> Pacific run-through diesels in Waverly Yard in N.J. Did the PRR units
> ever go all the way to Denver.
>                 Dave
>
>
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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson)
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:12:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Cab Signals/ PRR-CB&Q Run Through

   Thanks Dick,

    Thanks for the info. I asked that same question on PRR-FAX and no
one responed to 
it. I wish you could share that photo with us. I have some PRR Freight
Schedules and those PRR-CB&Q run through freights would be pre blocked
"PRR East"at Denver(no set outs, no pick ups). Iced reefer cars were
banned from these freights. And only a certain amount of cars were
permitted to run in these trains. 
      Dave


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From: LeeRainey@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:18:10 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Wanatah - Offshoot of Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q 

"I moved from there, mile post 417.4 east of Valparaiso (more precisely 
Wanatah where the MONON and the PRR crossed) in the late 50's and didn't 
return until the late 80's."

Anyone know the origin of the phrase "Wanatah"? It crops up in many 
industrial settings dating from the 1880s-1890s (western stamp mills, labor 
history, etc.) For some reason, it was apparently a word that meant something 
to a lot of people, but what? 

Anyone have any ideas?

Lee Rainey

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:07:39 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanatah - Offshoot of Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q 

In a message dated 6/10/01 11:32:17 PM Central Daylight Time, 
LeeRainey@aol.com writes:

<< For some reason, it was apparently a word that meant something 
 to a lot of people, but what?  >>

You might start with the Native American tribes of the area.

Bob Zoeller

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 02:58:17 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re: FA2 Dynamic Brake placement

Don and All,

I will share Don's reply with all so we can all learn together as I know 
there is another out there modeling ALCo FA's as we speak...

Don Luke writes:

<< Thanks for your reply on PRR chat.  I normally use AOL but tried Netscape 
since it would allow me to post a message.
 
Sorry if my wording was confusing.  I don't have much information about the 
guts and parts of the FA so try to best guess the wording.>>

No problem but I wanted everyone to realize just what that little square box 
affair on the roof was...  A Generator Exhaust Fan Vent. 
 
<>

Fear not, I don't think there is anything in my article that you will have 
too much trouble with, I just had another birthday a week ago and I know just 
what you are saying and beside this is good exercise for those fingers ... 
think positive!
 
<>

Sanding the bottom of the casting on a large rounded surface such as a coffee 
can is the easy way to do this.  Apply the sandpaper to the coffee can, hold 
the dynamic brake "blister" in hand and sand it evenly until the sides are 
thin and respectful looking, I would say less than . 010".  Cut off the 
dynamic brake "fins" that are attached to each end of the plastic Bowser 
casting and use the brass etching made by Details Associates.  
 
<>

That is correct and remove the end "grills, fins or grids," I have heard them 
called all of these.  
 
So, what I am looking for is the front to rear position of the Cal Scale 
casting on the roof of the body.  I have found drawings on various websites 
but the position varies from drawing to drawing.  Any help will be 
appreciated.>>

Just so you all know the drawings that Lennington did in Mainline Modeler of 
the FA-2's are beautiful and it is what Life Like used to tool the locomotive 
but they are dated and don't contain the dynamic brakes.  I explained this in 
my article and we should also know now that they are not exactly what Pennsy 
bought more likely the MoPac.  The measurement should be ... drum roll 
please... a scale 24 inches in from the front edge of the roof panel to the 
front edge of the dynamic brake "blister" excluding the grids, grills, fins 
or whatever you cal them...  3^)  Again I had to copy cast mine at the time 
as there was no CAL Scale part to replace it... 
 
Thanks
Don Luke
Tucson, AZ >>

No sir, thank you for bringing these points to light, Glad to help and 
remember these units represent the ALCo FA-2 phase 2 and the difference is in 
the position and direction of the lovers below the cab windows.  Just as they 
shifted on the RS-3's they did also on the FA-2's.  That will limit the 
number series to the top end of the units and I believe the first phase 2 was 
unit #9620 I believe but that is a guess and I would have to check my notes 
or my article. 

There you have it guys... Now watch someone will want the spacing on the 
antenna mast ... Steve, don't you start 3^)  

Greg Martin 

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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:40:11 -0400
From: Park Varieties 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FA2 Dynamic Brake placement

Greg and Group,

I happen to also be doing a set of FA-2's and  would indeed like to know the
antenna spacing - especially the distance the front ones are from the front of
the main
roof hatch line.  The others you can get pretty well from the pics in the article
plus the Cal-Scale
diagram must be reasonably accurate. Also, what about horn placement on the A
unit?  The Life-Like mounting hole is off-center.  Should the hole for the new
horns
be off-center also?
To take this topic a step further - does the antenna spacing differ for FA-1
installations?  Good pictures of these elusive engines for modeling purposes seem

to be hard to find.  What is the treatment of the antenna line on the front end
of
the units?  If  I recall, it did not come all the way down the fireman's side of
the
unit like the FA-2's.
Thanks in advance to all who can provide answers to these questions.
Frank Brua

TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote:

> Don and All,
>
> I will share Don's reply with all so we can all learn together as I know
> there is another out there modeling ALCo FA's as we speak...
>
> Don Luke writes:
>
> << Thanks for your reply on PRR chat.  I normally use AOL but tried Netscape
> since it would allow me to post a message.
>
> Sorry if my wording was confusing.  I don't have much information about the
> guts and parts of the FA so try to best guess the wording.>>
>
> No problem but I wanted everyone to realize just what that little square box
> affair on the roof was...  A Generator Exhaust Fan Vent.
>
> <>
>
> Fear not, I don't think there is anything in my article that you will have
> too much trouble with, I just had another birthday a week ago and I know just
> what you are saying and beside this is good exercise for those fingers ...
> think positive!
>
> < plastic).  I've attached a picture out of Walthers catalog. As you mentioned
> in your article, you had to contour the back of the casting you (and your
> brother) made to allow it to mount flush on the roof.  But you also added the
> dynamic brake grills.  The Cal Scale casting, which includes the grills, is
> flat so it will have to be contoured as well to fit the roof.  My choices are
> to either sand the back of the casting or put a hole in
> the roof of the body to drop the casting in.  Clearly, I will go with the one
> that is easiest and still looks okay.>>
>
> Sanding the bottom of the casting on a large rounded surface such as a coffee
> can is the easy way to do this.  Apply the sandpaper to the coffee can, hold
> the dynamic brake "blister" in hand and sand it evenly until the sides are
> thin and respectful looking, I would say less than . 010".  Cut off the
> dynamic brake "fins" that are attached to each end of the plastic Bowser
> casting and use the brass etching made by Details Associates.
>
> < brakes, the openings at each end, the dynamic brake grills.  This is all
> included on the casting so I referred to it as the dynamic brake assembly.>>
>
> That is correct and remove the end "grills, fins or grids," I have heard them
> called all of these.
>
> So, what I am looking for is the front to rear position of the Cal Scale
> casting on the roof of the body.  I have found drawings on various websites
> but the position varies from drawing to drawing.  Any help will be
> appreciated.>>
>
> Just so you all know the drawings that Lennington did in Mainline Modeler of
> the FA-2's are beautiful and it is what Life Like used to tool the locomotive
> but they are dated and don't contain the dynamic brakes.  I explained this in
> my article and we should also know now that they are not exactly what Pennsy
> bought more likely the MoPac.  The measurement should be ... drum roll
> please... a scale 24 inches in from the front edge of the roof panel to the
> front edge of the dynamic brake "blister" excluding the grids, grills, fins
> or whatever you cal them...  3^)  Again I had to copy cast mine at the time
> as there was no CAL Scale part to replace it...
>
> Thanks
> Don Luke
> Tucson, AZ >>
>
> No sir, thank you for bringing these points to light, Glad to help and
> remember these units represent the ALCo FA-2 phase 2 and the difference is in
> the position and direction of the lovers below the cab windows.  Just as they
> shifted on the RS-3's they did also on the FA-2's.  That will limit the
> number series to the top end of the units and I believe the first phase 2 was
> unit #9620 I believe but that is a guess and I would have to check my notes
> or my article.
>
> There you have it guys... Now watch someone will want the spacing on the
> antenna mast ... Steve, don't you start 3^)
>
> Greg Martin
>
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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:35:11 -0400
Subject: [PRR] J-1 vs. J-1a
From: Jerry Britton 

I looked in Pennsy Power I and Pennsy Power III.

The only differences Stauffer describes between the J-1 and the J-1a are in
the frame. One was cast, one wasn't; due to steel shortages during WW II.

The book lacks comparative side view builder's photos. The included photos
are action shots from all angles.

Are there visible spotting differences between these two classes, or did
they actually appear the same?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:45:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] J-1 vs. J-1a

Jerry,

   It was a little more complicated than you refer to. It wasn't as
simple as one being cast and the other being fabricated.
     This is what we had found out while trying to dig up info for Key
Imports. The J1 2-10-4's were built with both style (Cast and
Fabricated) frames. All the J1a's were built with Cast Frames.
    When my buddies and I got together that night for photo evidence of
these and to pick out the J's that we wanted to see built, I was
wondering the same thing you bring up. There are at least 2 spotting
differences. 1 is easy to see the other is hard. The hard spotting
feature is that little bar frme extension that sticks out from under the
cab. I am still trying to figure that out but it is shaped a little
different between the 2 classes. I think also 1 has holes and the other
dosn't. Like I said, that is hard to spot. The easy way is to look at
the pilot. If the pilot has a "bump" on the top, it is a Cast Frame
Loco. To see what I am referring to look on page 91 of Pennsy Power 1.
There are 2 different numbered J1's pictured. J1 #6474 has no "bump" and
J1 #6444 does. This "bump" is where the coupler lift anchors to. These 2
pics really show the difference. All J1a's will or should also show this
"bump" because they are also Cast Frame locos. 
    There was also another way too but I am not completely 100% sure if
this is a spotting feature or not. It had to do with the pilot itself. A
cast frame had the pilot cast right in so the surface should look
smooth. A fabricated frame loco had the pilot fabricated and welded in
place. If you look closely you can seen seams. Again I think this
represents the fabricated version. Don't write this in stone, because,
like I said, we are not 100% sure if this is indeed true. 
    Hopfully I got the info typed in correctly and not reversed. Maybe
someone can confirm or correct the above observations.
   The info we supplied Key was to have them build one  J with a Cast
Frame and one with a Fabricated Frame. .......Gary




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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:34:16 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] J-1 vs. J-1a

    Not an expert on the J class, but what about the sand lines?
    There were two different "routings" - was this a J-1 vs J-1a identifier 
or, like the frames, was it "mixed"
Dick Ross
Cleveland

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:34:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] J-1 vs. J-1a

Dick

     Not too many J's had the outside sandlines. I am guessing about 12
or so did. I don't know off hand what ratio of J1 and J1a's had them.
Will look in my photos to get an idea....Gary




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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:50:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] J-1 vs. J-1a

Dick,

    I just visited one of my websites were I have photos posted. In the
J1-J1a section I have posted 4 J1's with outside sandlines. I show no
J1a's with these but my listing is no way a full listing of the 2-10-4
locos. I have more photos elsewhere plus plenty of books to look thru to
see if in fact any J1a's recieved outside sandlines. I know for sure
there were more J1's that had them too......Gary 




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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:57:08 -0500
From: Greg Johnson 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

I vote for the PC paint scheme, since there are already some PRR painted
diesels at the museum.. However my 2nd choice would be PRR DGLE. Perhaps a
3rd generation diesel (how about and SD40-2!) could be donated and painted
in Conrail.

Regards,

Greg Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Mittner" 
To: "PRR-Talk" 
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?



Jerry,
There is a 3rd and 4th option too! How
about a Penn Central? No PC locos there either. I would rather see it in
Pennsy if it was orginally a PRR GP-30 though. Was it? Was it a Reading
unit? Hmmm, there's a thought too!....Gary.




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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:55:20 EDT
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FA2 Dynamic Brake placement

Frank and Group...

Iti s lunch time and I am at work so I will have to measure them tonight and get back to all on the exact spacing on the antenna mast. I will do so... dang I just knew this would come up. It shall be doine and if you don't have this article from MAINLINE MODELER I reecommend it for your library as it has a good indepth history of the units regarding the "fixtures and phases" so order the back issue if they are still available. Good reading.

FRANK Writes...
Greg and Group,

I happen to also be doing a set of FA-2's and  would indeed like to know the antenna spacing - especially the distance the front ones are from the front of the main roof hatch line.>>

You will alos have to lengthen the first antenna mast as it is too short for the FA-2's.  I hate that part...

<>

I will measure this ass well...

<>

Nope as the total length of the units are different...

<>  

It dives into the nose just ahead of the windshield and goes down into the front of the nose.

<>

I will be back to this this evening...

Greg Martin 



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From: LeeRainey@aol.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 17:00:38 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanatah - Offshoot of Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q 

In a message dated 6/10/2001 11:33:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
Bobspf@aol.com writes:

<< You might start with the Native American tribes of the area.
 
 Bob Zoeller >>

Good idea, but what area? For example, it was the name of a block station in 
Indiana and a stamp mill in Colorado, as well as a labor union movement (part 
of the International Typographers' Union) that operated nationwide.

Lee Rainey

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Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:29:26 -0500
From: "D. A. Christianson" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanatah - Offshoot of Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q

Lee,
As another expatriate of Wanatah, I had always heard that it means "Knee Deep in
Mud", which seems possible since it is in the Kankakee River's flood plain. And
yes, it was supposed to have come from the Native American, specifically the
Potawatommie. But I wouldn't bet very much on this story. I always thought it
sounded like the 'Hoosier State' all over again.

Dave Christianson

LeeRainey@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/10/2001 11:33:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> Bobspf@aol.com writes:
>
> << You might start with the Native American tribes of the area.
>
>  Bob Zoeller >>
>
> Good idea, but what area? For example, it was the name of a block station in
> Indiana and a stamp mill in Colorado, as well as a labor union movement (part
> of the International Typographers' Union) that operated nationwide.
>
> Lee Rainey
>
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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 02:34:32 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FA2 Dynamic Brake placement

Hey Yuze Gize...

Okay are you paying attention?  Here is the answer on the spacing of the 
antenna mast on the LIFE LIKE FA-2's ... staring at the very rear of the unit 
and working forward.  The first post being placed at the extreme end of the 
shell we will call that position Ø, #2 = 6'-3", #3 = 12'-6", #4 = 16'-6", #5 
= 23'-0", #6 = 28'-6", #7 = 34"-9", 42'-0" (end).  These measurements are to 
the centers of each antenna mast.  Remember the forward most post must be 
extended to keep the conduit/antenna from dropping down to the contour of the 
roof.  The center of the post on the horns is at 42 scale feet from the rear 
of the unit and centered on the roof between the antenna mast.  The antenna 
mast are spread 42 inches apart from each other.  The extension of the taller 
mast is a scale 6-inches. It requires the post to be cut (with a Dremel is 
the easiest) and a section of .010"x .030" brass flat stock (Detail 
Associates) to be soldered to the inboard side.  This is the toughest part of 
the job and I am not sure why Lee English never made a special set for the 
FA-2.  Don't forget the windshield wiper fluid tubes that mount to the nose, 
I made mine from .008" brass wire, a neat detail.  


FRANK asks...
<< Greg and Group,
 
I happen to also be doing a set of FA-2's and would indeed like to know the 
antenna spacing -- especially the distance the front ones are from the front 
of the main roof hatch line.>>

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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Wanatah - Offshoot of Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:26:13 -0400

Dave, Lee, and the List:

The Potawatommie was a local tribe and occupied portions of northern
Indiana. So the name Wanatah  being part of their language is possible if
not likely.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: D. A. Christianson [mailto:dchrist@swnebr.net]
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 10:29 PM
To: LeeRainey@aol.com; Bobspf@aol.com
Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanatah - Offshoot of Cab Signals/PRR- CB&Q


Lee,
As another expatriate of Wanatah, I had always heard that it means "Knee
Deep in
Mud", which seems possible since it is in the Kankakee River's flood plain.
And
yes, it was supposed to have come from the Native American, specifically the
Potawatommie. But I wouldn't bet very much on this story. I always thought
it
sounded like the 'Hoosier State' all over again.

Dave Christianson

LeeRainey@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 6/10/2001 11:33:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> Bobspf@aol.com writes:
>
> << You might start with the Native American tribes of the area.
>
>  Bob Zoeller >>
>
> Good idea, but what area? For example, it was the name of a block station
in
> Indiana and a stamp mill in Colorado, as well as a labor union movement
(part
> of the International Typographers' Union) that operated nationwide.
>
> Lee Rainey
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".


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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:39:19 -0400
From: Steve Hanlon 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

At 02:21 PM 6/9/01 EDT, JONS6755@aol.com wrote:
>List
>I think all this talk of Conrail Blue or PC black for the GP 30 at The RR 
>Museum of PA is crazy. The way I see it, is that the mission statement of
all true 
>museums is the preserver history the way it Originally was.

really?  how is it being in Conrail Blue not preserving history?  Was it
never in CR Blue?
what is history to you is subjective.

my vote would be to leave it CR Blue.  When was the last time you saw a CR
GP-30?


-steve





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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:38:10 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

In a message dated 6/12/01 9:48:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
steveh@mth-railking.com writes:

<< The way I see it, is that the mission statement of
 all true museums is the preserver history the way it Originally was. >>
AGREED - the problem here is that PRR; PC and CR are ALL "History" now - as 
are the NYC NKP B&O and N&W.... 

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:40:55 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

In a message dated 6/12/01 6:42:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
steveh@mth-railking.com writes:

<< how is it being in Conrail Blue not preserving history?  Was it
 never in CR Blue?
 what is history to you is subjective. >>

Steve, Yes the GP30 in question here did wear CR Blue for a short time of her
life. But originally she wore PRR DLEG. That was her "as delivered" paint 
scheme,
and I feel it's the scheme that she should be restored to and preserved in.
I'm not trying to say Conrail didn't play an important role in Pennsylvania 
(state of)
History and shouldn't be represented at the museum. Its just that I feel the 
2233
played more of a role in RR history as a PRR locomotive and not a CR 
locomotive.
There will be more locos donated to the museum that will be much more worthy 
of wearing the Conrail Blue (such as an SD40) maybe even one that wore 
nothing 
but CR Dress all her life. I say lets wait untill then to presserve CR 
History.

Jon S.

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:49:14 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

In a message dated 6/12/01 7:38:10 AM Pacific Daylight Time, VVA249 writes:

<< << The way I see it, is that the mission statement of
  all true museums is the preserver history the way it Originally was. >>
 AGREED - the problem here is that PRR; PC and CR are ALL "History" now - as 
are the NYC NKP B&O and N&W.... 
  >>

AGREED all of those railroads are History (sad as it is to say) . But what I 
am
trying to say is to presserve each units Originall History. The GP30 in 
question 
here spent much more time, and logged many more miles as a PRR locomotive
and thats the way she should be preserved,

Jon S.

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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:08:53 EDT
From: JSZARMACH@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 Questions

At the end of William Volkmer's book "Pennsy Electric Years," I see that GG1s 4872 and 4873 are listed as "surviving units" (which came as a surprise to me). These were 2 NJT GG1s and I thought they went right to the scrapper. But when I look at the "GG1 Homepage" (website) list of surviving GG1s, it says that these were scrapped "in the 1990's."  Also, one of the two was apparently owned by a private individual.

Does anyone know the circumstances behind these 2 GG1s? Who owned them, and why they scrapped in the 1990s vs. the 1980s (like the rest)?

Also, does anyone know the color "formula" or a description for "Tuscan Red" (i.e. one that I can take to a paint store and have 40 gallons of "Tuscan Red" paint mixed)?? I bought an old piece of PRR railroad equipment I need to paint.

Thanks in advance.

Joe Szarmach
jszarmach @ aol . com 


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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:22:16 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 Questions
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/12/01 11:08 AM, JSZARMACH@aol.com (JSZARMACH@aol.com) wrote:

> At the end of William Volkmer's book "Pennsy Electric Years," I see that GG1s
> 4872 and 4873 are listed as "surviving units" (which came as a surprise to
> me). These were 2 NJT GG1s and I thought they went right to the scrapper. But
> when I look at the "GG1 Homepage" (website) list of surviving GG1s, it says
> that these were scrapped "in the 1990's."  Also, one of the two was apparently
> owned by a private individual.

Volkmer wasn't wrong... take into account the year of publication of the
book.
> 
> Does anyone know the circumstances behind these 2 GG1s? Who owned them, and
> why they scrapped in the 1990s vs. the 1980s (like the rest)?

Can't help you there.
> 
> Also, does anyone know the color "formula" or a description for "Tuscan Red"
> (i.e. one that I can take to a paint store and have 40 gallons of "Tuscan Red"
> paint mixed)?? I bought an old piece of PRR railroad equipment I need to
> paint.
> 
The PRRT&HS sells color drift cards. You can take one to a paint store and
have them match it. There is no "formula" that can be provided generically.
Each brand of paint uses its own base formulas so each would yield different
results. (Carl Izzo, the list's resident paint expert, may chip on on this.)

Since I work in electronic publishing, I could use my scanner, the drift
card, Adobe PhotoShop, and a color-matching system, to yield a fairly close
Pantone (PMS) number or a CYMK mix. I could also get an RGB combo, but the
results would vary from computer to computer.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:47:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 Questions

Joe,

    I am sure we will hear from Bennett Levin on the Tuscan Red formula.
Afterall he has painted 1 E8 already and getting ready to do the other
matching E8. He will probably share his advice with you.  

    May I ask what piece of PRR equipment you are painting? Hopfully you
won't say a Cabin Car or Box Car. These were not painted Tuscan. That
color opens a whole new can of worms.....Gary




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


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From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:49:30 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] C&BT X29s

Several years ago C&BT claimed to be producing HO models of X29b's and
d's. Test shots were displayed at several shows.  I understand that the
owner had serious health problems and the project got delayed.  Does
anyone know the status of these long-awaited cars?
-- 

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================


"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:49:30 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: [PRR] C&BT X29s

Several years ago C&BT claimed to be producing HO models of X29b's and
d's. Test shots were displayed at several shows.  I understand that the
owner had serious health problems and the project got delayed.  Does
anyone know the status of these long-awaited cars?
-- 

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================


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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:05:57 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] N6a and N6b painting

What color(s) should these be painted in the roughly 1957 era.  Thank you for any input.  Norm Bell

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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:20:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a and N6b painting

Norm,

    Here is my rendition of a late steam era N6b. This is an O Scale
Center Cupola version. It is lettered for the Buckeye Region....
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/on6b.jpg. 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:08:15 -0400
From: Park Varieties 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FA2 Dynamic Brake placement

Greg,
Many thanks for taking the time to dig out the antenna mast location information.

For those of you who might
be putting off trying this project because of the need to lengthen the front
antenna
masts - the latest sets I received from Bowser do have two masts that are 6"
taller than the rest.  They are located at the end of the casting sprue (maybe
they
heard you Greg).  As an aside, Lee English has advised that the Cal-Scale antenna
set for the Erie-Builts should be available by the end of this week.

Frank Brua

TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote:

> Hey Yuze Gize...
>
> Okay are you paying attention?  Here is the answer on the spacing of the
> antenna mast on the LIFE LIKE FA-2's ... staring at the very rear of the unit
> and working forward.  The first post being placed at the extreme end of the
> shell we will call that position Ø, #2 = 6'-3", #3 = 12'-6", #4 = 16'-6", #5
> = 23'-0", #6 = 28'-6", #7 = 34"-9", 42'-0" (end).  These measurements are to
> the centers of each antenna mast.  Remember the forward most post must be
> extended to keep the conduit/antenna from dropping down to the contour of the
> roof.  The center of the post on the horns is at 42 scale feet from the rear
> of the unit and centered on the roof between the antenna mast.  The antenna
> mast are spread 42 inches apart from each other.  The extension of the taller
> mast is a scale 6-inches. It requires the post to be cut (with a Dremel is
> the easiest) and a section of .010"x .030" brass flat stock (Detail
> Associates) to be soldered to the inboard side.  This is the toughest part of
> the job and I am not sure why Lee English never made a special set for the
> FA-2.  Don't forget the windshield wiper fluid tubes that mount to the nose,
> I made mine from .008" brass wire, a neat detail.
>
> FRANK asks...
> << Greg and Group,
>
> I happen to also be doing a set of FA-2's and would indeed like to know the
> antenna spacing -- especially the distance the front ones are from the front
> of the main roof hatch line.>>




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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:16:30 -0400

Steve:

It's not a matter of "leaving" it blue, since it's already painted DGLE!
Another thing, Conrail's name and logo are copyrighted, so permission would
have to be secured from someone to paint any locomotive in Conrail livery.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Hanlon" 
To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue


> At 02:21 PM 6/9/01 EDT, JONS6755@aol.com wrote:
> >List
> >I think all this talk of Conrail Blue or PC black for the GP 30 at The RR
> >Museum of PA is crazy. The way I see it, is that the mission statement of
> all true
> >museums is the preserver history the way it Originally was.
>
> really?  how is it being in Conrail Blue not preserving history?  Was it
> never in CR Blue?
> what is history to you is subjective.
>
> my vote would be to leave it CR Blue.  When was the last time you saw a CR
> GP-30?
>
>
> -steve
>
>
>
>
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:32:10 -0400
From: Steve Hanlon 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

At 02:16 PM 6/12/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Steve:
>
>It's not a matter of "leaving" it blue, since it's already painted DGLE!
>Another thing, Conrail's name and logo are copyrighted, so permission would
>have to be secured from someone to paint any locomotive in Conrail livery.


the GP-30 is not a symbol of the PRR like the GG-1, the T-1 or, the K-4.  
what diesel comes to mind when you think PRR... centipede, sharks, E-8?

the PRR was a shadow of itself in the 1960's when the GP-30 came along.
the PRR only had 50 units.  not a "bestseller" compared to the large
numbers of other units.

i am a big PRR fan, but i am sensible to what captures the flavor of the
PRR.  GP-30 is PC and CR.
sure the PRR had them, but they were bit players in the PRR story.

who holds the CR copyrights?  NS?  i hope not.

-steve






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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:38:24 -0400
From: Steve Hanlon 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue 

At 10:40 AM 6/12/01 EDT, JONS6755@aol.com wrote:

>Steve, Yes the GP30 in question here did wear CR Blue for a short time of her
>life. But originally she wore PRR DLEG. That was her "as delivered" paint 
>scheme, and I feel it's the scheme that she should be restored to and
preserved in.

1987-2001 - 14 years as a historical piece
1976-1987 - 11 years as CR in revenue service
1968-1976 - 8 years as PC in revenue service
1963-1968 - 5 years as PRR in revenue service

38 years old and 4 owners later people want to return it to a life it never
really had.
the PRR by the mid-60's nothing of her former self.  do you look back at
mid-60's PRR with a smile?

the engine was painted for the PRR longer than it was owned by the PRR.
it may be PRR now, but that was a minor part of her life.

-steve





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From: "lmatt" 
Subject: [PRR] 7th annual picnic at White Buck Farm
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:50:18 -0400

Hello Friends:

The Matt family is having their 7th annual family picnic and wish to invite
the friends of the PRR, customers of the White Buck Farm, the West Virginia
Brewing Association and all of the many other friends we have.

The Picnic will be held rain or shine on Saturday, July 7th, 2001, at the
White Buck Farm, located between Bluff and Pine Bank in Western Greene
County, PA.  We will get started at 3:00 pm and have a great time until ???.
There will be live entertainment, food and some fireworks to celebrate
Independance Day.  Please bring a covered dish to serve 10 to 15 and
sufficient chairs (and a table if you want one) for yourself and family.
Those camping overnight usually have a camp fire and s'mores later.
Breakfast will be served to all campers on Sunday AM.  (Sorry, no shower
facility.)

Directions are from Waynesburg, PA, located on Interstate 79 at old exit #3,
approximately 40 miles south of Pittsburgh and the Pennsylvaania Turnpike,
and 10 miles north of the border between Pennsylvania and West Virginia
This is the intersection of I 79 and PA Rt. 21:

Follow Pennsylvania Route 21 West, High Street, through Waynesburg, to West
Wanyesburg where Route 18 South will meet and run in conjunction, look for
signs 21 West and 18 South.  Follow 21 & 18 through East View and
Rogersville, then to the intersection - with the blinking light -  2 miles
west of Rogersville where Rts. 18 and 21 separate.  Take the left turn, Rt.
18 South, and go 2 miles to the first left turn.  This road is Hargus Creek
Rd., and passes directly in front of the West Greene High School.  Follow
Hargus Creek Rd. for about 6 miles and you will come to the village of
Bluff.  Note: Hargus Creek Rd. is a water level route and just before Bluff
you will climb 1,500 ft. in elevation to cross the ridge.  Bluff is located
at the top of this ridge.  Follow Hargus Creek Rd. West, down the hill about
3 miles to the first right turn, Pine Run Rd.  White Buck Farm is exactly 1/2
mile from the turn off.  Look for the flags!  186 Pine Run Rd. (724)
499-5376

E-mail me if you need any other information.  Hope to see you here on July
7th.

Lew Matt



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue 
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:17:40 -0400

List:

I for one look back to the PRR of the mid 1960's with a smile - as I was
employed by same from May 9, 1962 to Feb. 1, 1968!!!!

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Hanlon" 
To: ; 
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue


> At 10:40 AM 6/12/01 EDT, JONS6755@aol.com wrote:
>
> >Steve, Yes the GP30 in question here did wear CR Blue for a short time of
her
> >life. But originally she wore PRR DLEG. That was her "as delivered" paint
> >scheme, and I feel it's the scheme that she should be restored to and
> preserved in.
>
> 1987-2001 - 14 years as a historical piece
> 1976-1987 - 11 years as CR in revenue service
> 1968-1976 - 8 years as PC in revenue service
> 1963-1968 - 5 years as PRR in revenue service
>
> 38 years old and 4 owners later people want to return it to a life it
never
> really had.
> the PRR by the mid-60's nothing of her former self.  do you look back at
> mid-60's PRR with a smile?
>
> the engine was painted for the PRR longer than it was owned by the PRR.
> it may be PRR now, but that was a minor part of her life.
>
> -steve
>
>
>
>
>
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>


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Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:31:09 EDT
From: JSZARMACH@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 Questions

I believe I am looking for the "pantone (PMS) number" of Tuscan Red.  The "Imron number" may be a good alternative.

I purchased GG1 4909 (a.k.a. Amtrak 4932). My plan was originally to paint it in Penn Central black. I am from Connecticut, so that is how I remember the GG1s. But just about everyone I talk to about it hates the idea -- and now I'm kind of leaning towards the red/Pennsy scheme.

The 4909 is the Tuscan Red GG1 in that (almost) famous 1954 Sunnyside enginehouse photo by Edward Conklin - the one in which 4 pin striped GG1s are lined up in a row - and the only red GG1 (the 4909) is venting steam. The photo can be seen at:

http://community-2.webtv.net/electricloco/CLASSGG1PRRELECTRIC0/

Now if I can only find a replacement dielectric fluid... :)


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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:38:47 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

In a message dated 6/12/01 11:56:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
tstuart@forcomm.net writes:

<< There is STILL a "Conrail" (Shared Assets) which must certainly own all
 legal rights to the corporate name and logo.
 
 But I can't imagine any company refusing permission to a museum for such a
 project as we're discussing--except... maybe...  UPS? >>


 Hey! Now theres an idea. . . Maybe we should repaint it UPS ! ! ! !   :-0

Jon S.

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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:33:19 -0400

I don't think UPS (OOPS) has the right shade of green.  ;-)
Zak


> In a message dated 6/12/01 11:56:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> tstuart@forcomm.net writes:
>
>  Hey! Now theres an idea. . . Maybe we should repaint it UPS ! ! ! !   :-0
>
> Jon S.


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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:12:18 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Past Key Imports PRR Releases in N Scale
From: Jerry Britton 

Two people have expressed in interest in an all-importer list of PRR steam
locos in brass. I have started one at

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/n_steam.ws4d

I am soliciting submissions that include

    class/subclass
    importer
    year of release
    notes (road number, details, era represented, etc.)

Thanks!

On 6/13/01 8:57 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote:

> I'm trying to build a list of Key Imports PRR releases, exclusive of the
> most recent T-1 and the forthcoming HH-1, H-8sa, H-9s, H-10s, J-1, and J-1a.
> 
> I know they did the M-1, M-1a, H-9, H-10, and I-1...per the list's database,
> but all the database indicates is that there were "several variations".
> 
> I would like to list ALL variations, including sub-class, road number, era
> represented, and details (e.g. trainphone).
> 
> If folks would contact me off-list with what models they have or know of, I
> would be most appreciative. I will then summarize back to the list.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 16:55:30 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] AOL fix to be able to send messages

I just tried this and it appeared to work so I thought I would share it so someone can confirm it.  Sign on to regular AOL.  Open the internet button which brings up the www. screen and type AOL.COM.  When it opens resign in and you should be able to send messages to PRR-Talk as AOL.COM is not in mime format.  I did this with a DSL line but I don't see why it wouldn't work over a modem.  Norm Bell

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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 17:36:35 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Fix AOL !

    The other alternative is to refuse to upgrade to 6.0 - or to regress to 
an ealier version - if you still can find it in your machine Don't ask me 
how... I have no clue how this stuff work 

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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fix AOL !
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 18:20:30 -0400

List,  I know I'll catch it for this, but there's a better solution.  Don't
use AOL.  It has a lot more problems than just formatting.  My daughter uses
it for email, and many times she'll send an attachment that just turns out
blank.
Zak

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 5:36 PM
Subject: [PRR] Fix AOL !


>     The other alternative is to refuse to upgrade to 6.0 - or to regress
to
> an ealier version - if you still can find it in your machine Don't ask me
> how... I have no clue how this stuff work
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>


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From: BBReynolds@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:16:14 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

In a message dated 6/12/2001 4:49:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JONS6755@aol.com writes:

> Hey! Now theres an idea. . . Maybe we should repaint it UPS ! ! ! !   :-0

And why not?  After all, the UPS color is Pullman Brown (to keep
somewhat on a railroad theme).

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA

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From: BBReynolds@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 21:16:48 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE vs Conrail Blue

In a message dated 6/12/2001 2:22:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:

> Another thing, Conrail's name and logo are copyrighted

The name and logo are trademarks, the use of which are
handled in manner different than copyright.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA

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From: "Bill Lane" 
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:44:58 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] a trial balloon (reply requested)

Hi All,

I am putting out this trial balloon for a well-known PRR brass painter who
is not computer savvy. I asked him what would he like to have built in HO
brass. He answered quickly a DD-2 because it has never been done. I asked
him this because I can put him in contact with a builder if he were to do
the research for the project. He would essentially become the importer at
that point buying directly from him. This is an interest survey for the DD-2
ONLY.

So, in this somewhat limited audience of 2 PRR email lists, who would be
interested in a DD-2 in HO brass? What would you consider to be a reasonable
retail price if it were painted and R-T-R? Please do not reply if you are
not truly interested. If this were to become a reality, deposits would have
to be made to secure your model.

I realize that there are people on the lists that are knowledgeable about
projects that are secretly underway with various manufacturers. Is the DD-2
currently planned for production? A simple yes with a time schedule will be
fine.

Finally, I would not be involved in this project much past this inquiry. I
am not an HO modeler. I am involved with my own S Scale brass X-29 project
with this builder. www.pennsysmodels.com

Please reply to billlane@snip.net

Thanks
Bill


"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

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From: "Bill Lane" 
Subject: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 23:44:58 -0400

Hi All,

I am putting out this trial balloon for a well-known PRR brass painter who
is not computer savvy. I asked him what would he like to have built in HO
brass. He answered quickly a DD-2 because it has never been done. I asked
him this because I can put him in contact with a builder if he were to do
the research for the project. He would essentially become the importer at
that point buying directly from him. This is an interest survey for the DD-2
ONLY.

So, in this somewhat limited audience of 2 PRR email lists, who would be
interested in a DD-2 in HO brass? What would you consider to be a reasonable
retail price if it were painted and R-T-R? Please do not reply if you are
not truly interested. If this were to become a reality, deposits would have
to be made to secure your model.

I realize that there are people on the lists that are knowledgeable about
projects that are secretly underway with various manufacturers. Is the DD-2
currently planned for production? A simple yes with a time schedule will be
fine.

Finally, I would not be involved in this project much past this inquiry. I
am not an HO modeler. I am involved with my own S Scale brass X-29 project
with this builder. www.pennsysmodels.com

Please reply to billlane@snip.net

Thanks
Bill


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From: "Viv Brice" 
Subject: [PRR] J-1 vs. J-1a
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 18:35:38 +1000

Gary's discussion about the pilots of the cast v fabricated frames was
fascinating, and his reference to Pennsy Power 1 page 91 clearly showed the
differences, But it also showed another difference - an extra step in the
"bump" pilot. browsing the rest of the book, all pilots with the "bump" seem
to have an extra footstep in the pilot casting. Is this another spotting
feature or were there "no bump" pilots with this extra step?

Viv Brice, another SPF from Down Under


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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 07:31:33 EDT
From: BPX29@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

Folks,
Looks like I'll be able to sneak over to Altoona next monday and tuesday while the family visits the in-laws at Sandusky, OH. It's been a few years since I've been over there, but I recall the general locations of the depot, RRer's Museam, Horseshoe Curve and railroad facilities. I was wondering if folks who are more familar with the area could advise me on a few things?

I'm wondering if there are any hobby shops in the general area that might offer anything out of the ordinary, such as books, out of production models or similar interesting goodies? Wheb I was there last time I didn't find a chance to do this kind of looking around, but I know there are some shops in the area.

Also, anyone know anything about that railfan hotel over in Cresson? A friend and I stopped in there on our last visit and had a suds, but I never asked about the accomodations or rates. I had the impression that the place was geared strictly to fans, so I guess I'd qualify as a guest, and am kicking the idea around.

Thanks, gents, for any input, and regards,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:32:55 -0400
From: "James L. McDaniel" 
Subject: [PRR] Centennial History



For the historians among us, this title is available as a reprint:

                   Burgess, George H. and Miles C. Kennedy
                   CENTENNIAL HISTORY OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD
COMPANY, 1846-1946
                   LC75-41750 Philadelphia, 1949
                   ISBN: 0405080670 illus. $67.95 
                   Richly detailed and thoroughly researched, Burgess
and Kennedy's work is one of the best memoirs of its kind. The origins
of the railroad are set in the context of interurban rivalry for the
trade of the  West and its history thereafter recounted in terms of the
administrations of the first eleven presidents.

Ayer Company Publishers                Phone: (888)-267-7323  FAX:
(603)-922-3348
or   http://www.scry.com/ayer/rail/title00.htm


Jim McDaniel, web surfing down here in Delmarva

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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:04:00 -0400
From: Drew McGhee 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

Barry and the group,

Terry Stuart hit the hobby shop situation adequately I think. If you
haven't been to the RRer's Memorial Museum since it opened, you're in for a
treat. First rate museum now. Anyway for books, the museum's gift shop
should satisfy any Pennsy fan looking for anything recently published.
Also, on the museum side of the tracks, benches and a nice walkway have
been installed between the new pedistrian crossover and existing 12
footbridge.

Drew R. McGhee
Altoona, PA
drm6@psu.edu
http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/

At 07:31 AM 06/14/2001 EDT, BPX29@aol.com wrote:
>Folks,

>I'm wondering if there are any hobby shops in the general area that might
offer anything out of the ordinary, such as books, out of production models
or similar interesting goodies? Wheb I was there last time I didn't find a
chance to do this kind of looking around, but I know there are some shops
in the area.
>
>Thanks, gents, for any input, and regards,
>Barry Peltier


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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:06:16 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Rail Works PRR Clearance Car For Sale
From: Jerry Britton 

Still remaining from my switch to N scale is one HO scale Rail Works PRR
Clearance Car, factory painted.

These are sold out at Rail Works and it is a beautiful and unique car that
was used to check clearances along the line. It ran as a passenger extra. A
history of the car is included.

The car has never been run on a layout. The spotlight lenses have been
installed; couplers have not.

Asking $400. Other online resellers are showing this car for around $450.

If interested, please contact me off-list. Thank you!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 10:28:19 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

Bill asks:
>So, in this somewhat limited audience of 2 PRR email lists, who would be
>interested in a DD-2 in HO brass? What would you consider to be a reasonable
>retail price if it were painted and R-T-R? Please do not reply if you are
>not truly interested. If this were to become a reality, deposits would have
>to be made to secure your model.

Bill,
    I prefer to deal with importers who do not require payment until
delivery, or at least until just before the delivery.  How do you feel
about sending a stranger $1000 to play with for 2+ years?  Also, while I
agree that the DD-2 is a GREAT idea, remember that unlike a class like the
GG-1, there was only one, so most folks are not going to buy multiple units
.  Finally, Rail Classics has had an announcement on their web site for
ages that they will be doing the DD-2 (http://www.railclassics.com/)
However, don't let that discourage you as they have a number of other
projects such as the P-5 series and I'm not sure how many are a reality.
So, my responses are:

Interest:  YES (I need ONE)
Painted:  Well, only if you get it right...match the Athearn Genesis paint
(talk to Greg Martin).  The windows should be glazed as well.
R-T-R:   Make sure the bloody thing RUNS...high quality drive AND DCC ready
(geez, why can't $1000+ brass come with a bloody plug?)
Price:  I can dream...how about $500?

Now, I could get REALLY enthusiastic if you were to offer a RESIN model,
complete with chassis in the $150 range...I could and would buy the
following...P-5a (modifieds especially, but boxes as well), DD-2, R-1.  How
'bout it?  This is a market no-one has explored to date for PRR electric
motors.

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
                           __
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From: BlockTruck@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:23:20 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Challenger Imports' PRR cars

Challenger Imports has imported factory painted cars for PRR, but as single 
cars, and in sets.  I would like help compiling a list of the names and car 
numbers Challenger has used on it's factory finished cars.  There are quite a 
few when you start checking around.

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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:46:51 -0400
From: "R. Vogel" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 Questions

Hi,

I'm also a paint matching expert (at the only paint store on this
Island). So I'll give you my thoughts.

I don't have a pantone deck, but if you have a good one, (not one of
those that are printed on cheap paper) and you can figure out which is
the best match a good paint store can match to that. Don't assume they
have a pantone color deck. (Or Imron deck)  

I personally would take in a model painted in a satisfactory tuscan and
have them match to that.  It is much easier to match to a real painted
object than printer inks.

Don't go to a place that just does computer matching.  I have a brand
new, latest technology spectrometer costing thousands and it has yet to
do a perfect match (or even very close) in the two months we've had it. 
Go to a place with someone who can do it by eye.  Leave the sample with
them for a day so they are not under pressure to rush it.  Have them
give you an extra copy of the formula noting the size (gallon or quart)
mixing base and colorants. Keep it in a safe place.

Tell them about your project, if they think its cool they will do a good
job and want to see it after its painted.

Good Luck,

Bob

JSZARMACH@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I believe I am looking for the "pantone (PMS) number" of Tuscan Red.  The "Imron number" may be a good alternative.
> 
> I purchased GG1 4909 (a.k.a. Amtrak 4932). My plan was originally to paint it in Penn Central black. I am from Connecticut, so that is how I remember the GG1s. But just about everyone I talk to about it hates the idea -- and now I'm kind of leaning towards the red/Pennsy scheme.
> 
> The 4909 is the Tuscan Red GG1 in that (almost) famous 1954 Sunnyside enginehouse photo by Edward Conklin - the one in which 4 pin striped GG1s are lined up in a row - and the only red GG1 (the 4909) is venting steam. The photo can be seen at:
> 
> http://community-2.webtv.net/electricloco/CLASSGG1PRRELECTRIC0/
> 
> Now if I can only find a replacement dielectric fluid... :)
> 
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 22:12:04 -0400
From: Dale Dembinski 
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Altoona Sights & Shops

Barry, the Ohio turnpike is being widened from 2 lanes to 3 in each
direction.  Plan on extra travel time caused by 20 mile stretches of
50mph speed limits in the construction areas.  Sometimes the traffic
picks up to 60-65 mph or so, but lots of times it drags along at 50.
Doubling of fines does seem slow down the 80mph group to an extent.  In
the areas where construction is complete, traffic moves along much
better in the 3 lanes.

I would also like to vote for the flood museum at Johnstown. It's
fascinating, and does have a surprising amount of tie-in to the PRR.  As
an aside, we were riding the Strasburg RR when film crews were shooting
the railroad scenes for the movie renactment of the flood. I recall the
"rain" in the movie being made by a fire engine and its hose spraying
the engine.  This movie is shown on the upper floor of the museum; nice
shots of the PRR engines no longer running.

Dale


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From: "lmatt" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:21:40 -0400

I would like to see a reasonably priced DD-2 and would buy one that is RTR.
I've got a ton of brass waiting to be painted "some day".  The idea of resin
shells is a great one, thanks Bruce, but add E2b and E2c to that list, too.
:-)

Lew Matt


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
To: "Bill Lane" ; 
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)


> Bill asks:
> >So, in this somewhat limited audience of 2 PRR email lists, who would be
> >interested in a DD-2 in HO brass? What would you consider to be a
reasonable
> >retail price if it were painted and R-T-R? Please do not reply if you are
> >not truly interested. If this were to become a reality, deposits would
have
> >to be made to secure your model.
>
> Bill,
>     I prefer to deal with importers who do not require payment until
> delivery, or at least until just before the delivery.  How do you feel
> about sending a stranger $1000 to play with for 2+ years?  Also, while I
> agree that the DD-2 is a GREAT idea, remember that unlike a class like the
> GG-1, there was only one, so most folks are not going to buy multiple
units
> .  Finally, Rail Classics has had an announcement on their web site for
> ages that they will be doing the DD-2 (http://www.railclassics.com/)
> However, don't let that discourage you as they have a number of other
> projects such as the P-5 series and I'm not sure how many are a reality.
> So, my responses are:
>
> Interest:  YES (I need ONE)
> Painted:  Well, only if you get it right...match the Athearn Genesis paint
> (talk to Greg Martin).  The windows should be glazed as well.
> R-T-R:   Make sure the bloody thing RUNS...high quality drive AND DCC
ready
> (geez, why can't $1000+ brass come with a bloody plug?)
> Price:  I can dream...how about $500?
>
> Now, I could get REALLY enthusiastic if you were to offer a RESIN model,
> complete with chassis in the $150 range...I could and would buy the
> following...P-5a (modifieds especially, but boxes as well), DD-2, R-1.
How
> 'bout it?  This is a market no-one has explored to date for PRR electric
> motors.
>
> Happy Rails
> Bruce
>
> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
> Scott-Ritchey Research Center
> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
>
> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
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>
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From: "lmatt" 
Subject: [PRR] Shop-N-Save GG1 collectors train set
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:30:16 -0400

I just picked up a new-in-the-box GG1 freight train set at a flea market.
The box is marked "Shop-N-Save" collectors set, and the freight cars are all
lettered for Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh area merchants.  The GG1 is painted
5 stripe Tuscan and numbered 2000, for the year, I guess.  Anyone know
anything about this set.


Lew Matt



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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:31:26 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

>I would like to see a reasonably priced DD-2 and would buy one that is RTR.
>I've got a ton of brass waiting to be painted "some day".  The idea of resin
>shells is a great one, thanks Bruce, but add E2b and E2c to that list, too.
>:-)
>
>Lew Matt

Gee Lew,

I dunno...they're a little to modern for me ...of course, with readily
available resin I might go more modern (NOT!), but then we should also add
the E-44 to the list, and THAT loco has drive available already (Stewart).
Would any commercial drives work for the E-2b or E-2c?

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:33:27 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

Do not missing spending at least an hour at Cassandra, Pa. It is a few
miles (+/-5) west of Cresson and the locoal community has created a
terrific overlook with picnic tables. There is a little general store in
the village run by the mayor where you can buy snacks and drinks. The
overhead bridge and knoll are great viwing spots. Do not miss it! Much
better sight lines and opportunities for photos than either Cresson or
the Curve.


Bennett

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:51:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Derrick J Brashear 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:

> I dunno...they're a little to modern for me ...of course, with readily
> available resin I might go more modern (NOT!), but then we should also add
> the E-44 to the list, and THAT loco has drive available already (Stewart).

E44 has a C truck. Stewart makes a U25B. The U25C was Rivarossi/AHM and
hasn't been produced in years.

-D
-has taken pictures of the truck on the E44 at Strasburg in hopes of
getting someone to build at least the trucks


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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:55:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Derrick J Brashear 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Shop-N-Save GG1 collectors train set

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, lmatt wrote:

> I just picked up a new-in-the-box GG1 freight train set at a flea market.
> The box is marked "Shop-N-Save" collectors set, and the freight cars are all
> lettered for Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh area merchants.  The GG1 is painted
> 5 stripe Tuscan and numbered 2000, for the year, I guess.  Anyone know
> anything about this set.

As I recall it's the IHC non-Premier GG1, but just a standard
run-of-the-mill set. The Shop-n-Save across the bridge from my house had
the sets not too long ago. The pricing was ok but given that I have enough
to paint, it doesn't look like I'll end up stringing cat, and it wasn't
the "Premier Series" GG1 I didn't bother...

-D




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From: bobsin@nac.net
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:13:19 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

Yes!  An E-44!

There was a brass one years ago I think, maybe NJ International or 
Alco Models?  RMC once ran plans, I recall.

I was train-watching at Monmouth Junction maybe 30 years ago 
when a long coal drag ground to a stop in front of me, two E-44s on 
the point, waiting for clearance to go on the branch to Jamesburg 
and then I guess South Amboy.  Awesome motors!  Raw, industrial 
power.

Are the truck sideframes anything like the U-boat that folks are 
talking about?  The E-44s had massive truck sideframes.

John Bobsin

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:14:06 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

>On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:
>
>> I dunno...they're a little to modern for me ...of course, with readily
>> available resin I might go more modern (NOT!), but then we should also add
>> the E-44 to the list, and THAT loco has drive available already (Stewart).
>
>E44 has a C truck. Stewart makes a U25B. The U25C was Rivarossi/AHM and
>hasn't been produced in years.
>
>-D
>-has taken pictures of the truck on the E44 at Strasburg in hopes of
>getting someone to build at least the trucks

Derrick,

Stewart also has a C truck under their Alcos  and it is apparently the
correct wheelbase for the E-44.  Therefore, all that might be needed would
be correct sideframes, and that's a WHOLE lot easier than an entire drive
to get made!

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:24:18 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

Bennett,
I agree about Cassandra, Pa. !   It's one of those well kept secrets. The 
camara views are great and you don't get the "non-railfan tourist types"
like at The Curve.
Jon S.

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From: "Chany, Christopher" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:24:42 -0400

It was Alco Models. I have one.  The trucks short out on the steps on any
kind of curve.

Chris Chany

-----Original Message-----
From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 10:13 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)


Yes!  An E-44!

There was a brass one years ago I think, maybe NJ International or 
Alco Models?  RMC once ran plans, I recall.

I was train-watching at Monmouth Junction maybe 30 years ago 
when a long coal drag ground to a stop in front of me, two E-44s on 
the point, waiting for clearance to go on the branch to Jamesburg 
and then I guess South Amboy.  Awesome motors!  Raw, industrial 
power.

Are the truck sideframes anything like the U-boat that folks are 
talking about?  The E-44s had massive truck sideframes.

John Bobsin

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:30:05 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" 

If someone would trim all the $%$#@ trees at the Curve the viewing and 
photography would be great!  (And that from a biologist and environmentalist
of all things - but one has to order one's priorities, doesn't one)


Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540


----------
>From: Bennett Levin 
>Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
>Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
>Date: Fri, 15 Jun, 2001, 8:33
>

> Do not missing spending at least an hour at Cassandra, Pa. It is a few
> miles (+/-5) west of Cresson and the locoal community has created a
> terrific overlook with picnic tables. There is a little general store in
> the village run by the mayor where you can buy snacks and drinks. The
> overhead bridge and knoll are great viwing spots. Do not miss it! Much
> better sight lines and opportunities for photos than either Cresson or
> the Curve.
>
>
> Bennett
>
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> 

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From: "Sam Vastano" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Shop-N-Save GG1 collectors train set
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:34:10 -0400

Lew,

All the Shop & Save stores in Western PA were selling them as an 
advertisement right before Christmas. They sold at the stores for 49.00 I 
bought one never open it, But just to have.

Sam Vastano


>From: "lmatt" 
>To: "PRR -Talk" 
>Subject: [PRR] Shop-N-Save GG1 collectors train set
>Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:30:16 -0400
>
>I just picked up a new-in-the-box GG1 freight train set at a flea market.
>The box is marked "Shop-N-Save" collectors set, and the freight cars are 
>all
>lettered for Pennsylvania and Pittsburgh area merchants.  The GG1 is 
>painted
>5 stripe Tuscan and numbered 2000, for the year, I guess.  Anyone know
>anything about this set.
>
>
>Lew Matt
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:36:36 EDT
From: BPX29@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Regarding Altoona Sights and Shops

Gentlemen,
Thanks very much for all the input on my question! All I have to do now is hit Fallston, Johnstown, Cassandra, Gallitzin, Cresson and Altoona, with a side trip up to Williamsport, to do everything I'd like in two days! Well, nothing like an embarrassment of richs for a change.
Aside from the conventional accomodations in Altoona, it seems like at least three other promissing locations have been suggested, any of which would do. Maybe I better stay flexible, something I'm a bit unacustomed to after all these years as a family man, but I'm bringing all your notes and directions.

I'll have to go to digest mode on the lists until June 25th, as my home computer's laid up for repairs and I don't expect any access opportunities while on vacation, but who knows.
Again gents, thanks much for the input.
Best regards,
Barry Peltier

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:40:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 10:30 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:

> If someone would trim all the $%$#@ trees at the Curve the viewing and
> photography would be great!  (And that from a biologist and environmentalist
> of all things - but one has to order one's priorities, doesn't one)
> 
The trees will be coming down.

They have a quote of $50K to do it. The government has already pledged $40K
of that. They are trying to collect donations for the remaining $10K. I
doubt they'll get enough, but I guarantee you that the trees will come down
one way or another.

Note, however, that does not keep them down.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:43:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Derrick J Brashear 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:

> Derrick,
> 
> Stewart also has a C truck under their Alcos  and it is apparently the
> correct wheelbase for the E-44.  Therefore, all that might be needed would
> be correct sideframes, and that's a WHOLE lot easier than an entire drive
> to get made!

I forgot the C628/630 truck because as you say it has the wrong
sideframes, I just tuned it out. I have this recollection that the
wheelbase isn't quite right for the real U25C/E44 truck, but I will check
details and get back to you guys. Or maybe I'll go to Strasburg with a
tape tomorrow;-) 

-D



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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:53:56 -0500
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" 

There ought to be enough rail fans up there who would be willing to chop 
trees down for a better view.  I would.  And when I visit this summer, if
the project is in progress, I'll drive over from Pgh and help for a couple
of days.   Has that approach been contemplated????



Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540


----------
>From: Jerry Britton 
>To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" , PRR-Talk LIST

>Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
>Date: Fri, 15 Jun, 2001, 9:40
>

> On 6/15/01 10:30 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:
>
>> If someone would trim all the $%$#@ trees at the Curve the viewing and
>> photography would be great!  (And that from a biologist and environmentalist
>> of all things - but one has to order one's priorities, doesn't one)
>>
> The trees will be coming down.
>
> They have a quote of $50K to do it. The government has already pledged $40K
> of that. They are trying to collect donations for the remaining $10K. I
> doubt they'll get enough, but I guarantee you that the trees will come down
> one way or another.
>
> Note, however, that does not keep them down.

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:06:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 10:53 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:

> There ought to be enough rail fans up there who would be willing to chop
> trees down for a better view.  I would.  And when I visit this summer, if
> the project is in progress, I'll drive over from Pgh and help for a couple
> of days.   Has that approach been contemplated????
> 
I'm sure there'd be plenty of volunteers. Unfortunately, the railroad, the
city, or whoever owns the land cannot afford the liability...chain saws,
trees falling, etc. Can you imagine?

I'd like to see the same thing at Marysville, Pa., where the mains split
with about 100 yards between them. This was a small yard railroad-west of
Enola, used until the 1950's or so. When I was in high school this was a
decent train watching spot...and you could see the Rockville Bridge from
there. Now it is so overgrown you can't see the far tracks from the
station...except in the winter months. Again, good opportunity for a few
dozen railfans with chain saws!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:13:54 -0400

PRR-List:

While we are on the subject of clearing foliage from ex-PRR R/W, it would be
GREAT to remove the foliage between the tracks and the Susquehanna River at
Banks interlocking. There were some fanastic photographs of eastbound trains
in the 1950's. There was a tangent stretch of track flanked by two opposing
curves. There was a clear view of the river back then as well as some
islands or outgrowths along the river bank. The photos taken during the
summer months were something else; they always remind me of Don Woods and
Baldwin Shark units.

But of course, clearing these trees at Banks would require moola as
well...:(

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana

-----Original Message-----
From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu]
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 9:54 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops


There ought to be enough rail fans up there who would be willing to chop 
trees down for a better view.  I would.  And when I visit this summer, if
the project is in progress, I'll drive over from Pgh and help for a couple
of days.   Has that approach been contemplated????



Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540


----------
>From: Jerry Britton 
>To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" , PRR-Talk LIST

>Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
>Date: Fri, 15 Jun, 2001, 9:40
>

> On 6/15/01 10:30 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote:
>
>> If someone would trim all the $%$#@ trees at the Curve the viewing and
>> photography would be great!  (And that from a biologist and
environmentalist
>> of all things - but one has to order one's priorities, doesn't one)
>>
> The trees will be coming down.
>
> They have a quote of $50K to do it. The government has already pledged
$40K
> of that. They are trying to collect donations for the remaining $10K. I
> doubt they'll get enough, but I guarantee you that the trees will come
down
> one way or another.
>
> Note, however, that does not keep them down.

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:29:56 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 11:13 AM, Andrews, Ted (Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com) wrote:

> While we are on the subject of clearing foliage from ex-PRR R/W, it would be
> GREAT to remove the foliage between the tracks and the Susquehanna River at
> Banks interlocking. There were some fanastic photographs of eastbound trains
> in the 1950's. There was a tangent stretch of track flanked by two opposing
> curves. There was a clear view of the river back then as well as some
> islands or outgrowths along the river bank. The photos taken during the
> summer months were something else; they always remind me of Don Woods and
> Baldwin Shark units.
> 
> But of course, clearing these trees at Banks would require moola as
> well...:(
> 
Nah, just ten minutes for a hundred railfans donning black clothing equipped
with chain saws with flashlights attached by duct tape!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:04:41 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

All that needs to be done is start the rumor that a steam special is coming through and those guys that yell, "Photo line starts here!"  will have it taken care of before you even get there.

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:07:44 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] BP60 to BH50

I was looking at Pennsy Power 2 last night and noticed that the centipedes were reclassifed to BH50 from BP60 when they were coverted to freight service and to my understandiing the turbos were removed.  I am assuming that BH means Baldwin Helper and don't recall any other locos designated with the H.  Anybody know why they weren't classified BF50?

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:13:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 12:04 PM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote:

> All that needs to be done is start the rumor that a steam special is coming
> through and those guys that yell, "Photo line starts here!"  will have it
> taken care of before you even get there.
> 
Did you say...1361?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:22:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP60 to BH50
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 12:07 PM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote:

> I was looking at Pennsy Power 2 last night and noticed that the centipedes
> were reclassifed to BH50 from BP60 when they were coverted to freight service
> and to my understandiing the turbos were removed.  I am assuming that BH means
> Baldwin Helper and don't recall any other locos designated with the H.
> Anybody know why they weren't classified BF50?
> 
The change from BP60 to BH50 also included a change in the gearing.

There were also EH15's (F3A's).

Some freight sharks were regeared for coal drags -- not quite helper
service. Not sure off the top of my head if they were BF15 or BF16, but they
were redesignated BZ (if I recall).
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:29:09 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP60 to BH50

In a message dated 6/15/01 11:16:18 AM Central Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com 
writes:

<< Helper and don't recall any other locos designated with the H >>

EH15.  F3s geared for helper service.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:33:17 -0400
From: Drew McGhee 
Subject: Trees at the 'Curve was Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

Don and the group,

The RRer's Memorial Museum has received a grant to deal with the trees at
the Curve. It's not enough to do what most visitors would like; no trees
below the track around the entire Curve. But it will help the view quite a
bit. Money has been in place for a while. Some problems have developed in
the mean time. 

NS - It's their property! 

It's in a public drinking water watershed area.

That $#%@'ed Indianna bat. This is the same bat that has been delaying the
finishing of I 99.

>From what I understand, the tree trimming should occur this calendar year.

Drew R. McGhee
Altoona, PA
drm6@psu.edu
http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/

At 09:30 AM 06/15/2001 -0500, Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote:
>If someone would trim all the $%$#@ trees at the Curve the viewing and 
>photography would be great!  (And that from a biologist and environmentalist
>of all things - but one has to order one's priorities, doesn't one)
>
>
>Don Harper
>Texas A&M Marine Lab
>5007 Avenue U
>Galveston, TX  77551
>409/740-4540


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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:47:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Trees at the 'Curve was Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 12:33 PM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote:

> It's not enough to do what most visitors would like; no trees
> below the track around the entire Curve.

Then what trees are they cutting?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:50:05 -0400
From: Steve Hanlon 
Subject: [PRR] Baldwins

hey everyone,

i was just looking at "Diesel Locomotives: The First 50 Years" and came
across a photo of a Baldwin AS-16.  Nothing unsual, except being a PRR kind
of guy, I was confused for a second.  It was not an Alco RS-3.   PRR would
have designated the AS-16 as a BS-16, but the PRR did not have the AS-16,
rather, they had the AS-616.  This is the PRR BS-16m. 

I can understand the PRR designatiions, but sometimes it can be confusing.
I can't think of any other builder models that conflict a PRR designation.

that's my friday ramblings.

-steve





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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:51:34 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Walthers Turntable

Does anybody know anything about the Walthers turntable that Standard Hobby Supply has in the July ad in MR?

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:56:58 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwins
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 12:50 PM, Steve Hanlon (steveh@mth-railking.com) wrote:

> i was just looking at "Diesel Locomotives: The First 50 Years" and came
> across a photo of a Baldwin AS-16.  Nothing unsual, except being a PRR kind
> of guy, I was confused for a second.  It was not an Alco RS-3.   PRR would
> have designated the AS-16 as a BS-16, but the PRR did not have the AS-16,
> rather, they had the AS-616.  This is the PRR BS-16m.
> 
> I can understand the PRR designatiions, but sometimes it can be confusing.
> I can't think of any other builder models that conflict a PRR designation.
> 
> that's my friday ramblings.
> 
Also keep in mind that the class designations that we most commonly use were
not adopted until circa 1952ish. This was something I picked up on in Eric
Hirsimaki's "Black Gold Black Diamonds, Volume Two" -- a must-have book on
PRR motive power.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:02:43 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Turntable
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 12:51 PM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote:

> Does anybody know anything about the Walthers turntable that Standard Hobby
> Supply has in the July ad in MR?
> 
Is it advertised as "new"? They've marketed a turntable for years.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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X-Apparently-From: 
From: Garry Spear 
Subject: RE: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:16:11 -0400

I always thought the E44, U25C, and ALCO 625 trucks were built from the 
same casting.  The equalizers and springing arrangements might be 
different, but the traction motor mountings were very similar.

Because the weights of the locomotives were different the would be 
differences in the springs.  And by the way the ALCO C625 were rough 
riders.  Spent 1,000s of miles in the cabs of 6300 & 6301.  I wish I could 
do it all again.

Garry

-----Original Message-----
From:	Derrick J Brashear [SMTP:shadow@dementia.org]
Sent:	Friday, June 15, 2001 9:52 AM
To:	prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject:	Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:

> I dunno...they're a little to modern for me ...of course, with readily
> available resin I might go more modern (NOT!), but then we should also 
add
> the E-44 to the list, and THAT loco has drive available already 
(Stewart).

E44 has a C truck. Stewart makes a U25B. The U25C was Rivarossi/AHM and
hasn't been produced in years.

-D
-has taken pictures of the truck on the E44 at Strasburg in hopes of
getting someone to build at least the trucks


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_________________________________________________________
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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 13:23:45 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP60 to BH50

In a message dated 06/15/2001 12:29:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< Some freight sharks were regeared for coal drags -- not quite helper
 service. Not sure off the top of my head if they were BF15 or BF16, but they
 were redesignated BZ (if I recall).
 >>

Jerry,

The "z" designation was used only on BP20's which were reclassed to freight 
service from passenger.  Class changed from BP20 to BF16z.  I would assume 
this was to differentiate between the six axle BF16z  from the 4 axle BF16 
(RF-16) sharks.

Rich Orr

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Subject: RE: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:20:00 -0700
From: "John Cooper" 

The primary difference between the prototype E44 and Stewart model
trucks is the appearance of the bearings.  The E44 bearings were the
visible kind with the little triangle formation (Timkin?).  The Stewart
model seems to have some sort of circular cover plate on the bearings.
The old AHM U25C trucks are just about perfect for an E44, though the
overall distance between the trucks is about 6' too short for an E44.

Compare PRR Prototype:

http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr4409s.jpg
http://crcyc.railfan.net/locos/elec/e44/prr4401ef.jpg

With Stewart model:

http://www.stewarthobbies.com/CRxPRRC628.jpg

John

> ----------
> From: 	Garry Spear[SMTP:garrettspear@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 	Friday, June 15, 2001 10:16 AM
> To: 	'Garry Spear'
> Cc: 	'Derrick J Brashear'; prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject: 	RE: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
> 
> I always thought the E44, U25C, and ALCO 625 trucks were built from
> the 
> same casting.  The equalizers and springing arrangements might be 
> different, but the traction motor mountings were very similar.
> 
> Because the weights of the locomotives were different the would be 
> differences in the springs.  And by the way the ALCO C625 were rough 
> riders.  Spent 1,000s of miles in the cabs of 6300 & 6301.  I wish I
> could 
> do it all again.
> 
> Garry
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Derrick J Brashear [SMTP:shadow@dementia.org]
> Sent:	Friday, June 15, 2001 9:52 AM
> To:	prr-talk@dsop.com
> Subject:	Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
> 
> On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote:
> 
> > I dunno...they're a little to modern for me ...of course, with
> readily
> > available resin I might go more modern (NOT!), but then we should
> also 
> add
> > the E-44 to the list, and THAT loco has drive available already 
> (Stewart).
> 
> E44 has a C truck. Stewart makes a U25B. The U25C was Rivarossi/AHM
> and
> hasn't been produced in years.
> 
> -D
> -has taken pictures of the truck on the E44 at Strasburg in hopes of
> getting someone to build at least the trucks
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
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> 
> 
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> 
> 
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:41:36 -0400
From: Drew McGhee 
Subject: Re: Trees at the 'Curve was Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

Jerry and the group,

My understanding is there's going to be a combination of topping and (I
think) two corridors with all of the trees down.

Drew R. McGhee
Altoona, PA
drm6@psu.edu
http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/


At 12:47 PM 06/15/2001 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote:
>
>Then what trees are they cutting?


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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:44:35 EDT
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] BP60 to BH50

Guys,

Let's not forget the EH-15A's (F-7's) received in February 1949 that were a look alike to the recent Athearn Genesus units.   

<>

Then Bob reminds us...



These were interestin beast. In a lesson from Warren Calloway I learned that Baldwin's had problems from the start with leaky radiators mounted above the eletrical panels.  But they served their purpose and showed the operating department that the diesels  were the answer to passenger operations.  Then with the retirement of more and more steam locomotive and an unanticiapted down turn in the economy in the mid-fifties the railroad's plan to dieselize found that they had an excess of certain locomotive types , primarily passenger equipment. Some classes of locomotives were relagated to either dual service as was the case with the PA's or the in the case of the BP-60 helper service as BH-50's.  Make no mistake these units were good units but technology was changing and problem units were moved to other duties to improve their value to the RR. 

Greg Martin



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From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Turntable
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:09:13 -0400

The "new" turntable is withOUT the motorizing parts for $10.00 less.  A
separate motor is available separately.

Dennis
mailto: dennis@onerrave.com

D & S HOBBIES
http://www.onerrave.com                 Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model
railroad items
34 Main Street
South Bound Brook, NJ 08880


----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Britton 
To: ; 
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Turntable


> On 6/15/01 12:51 PM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote:
>
> > Does anybody know anything about the Walthers turntable that Standard
Hobby
> > Supply has in the July ad in MR?
> >
> Is it advertised as "new"? They've marketed a turntable for years.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
>
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".


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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:04:02 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re: Trees at the Curve

In a message dated 6/15/01 12:54:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< It's not enough to do what most visitors would like; no trees below the 
track around the entire Curve. >>

Bring back steam and WW 2 or prewar traffic levels - no trees grew through 
the cinders - check the B&W films, those hills were barren!
R E Ross
Cleveland

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From: "Brian J Carlson" 
Subject: [PRR] testing
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:40:45 -0400

this is a test, 

Brian J Carlson
Cheektowaga NY


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From: "Brian J Carlson" 
Subject: [PRR] RPO question
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:49:53 -0400

Does anyone know the RPO class that was assigned to the train 580 Between
Renovo and erie. I am pretty sure it was a BM70k or BM70ka
Brian J Carlson
Cheektowaga NY


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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:57:54 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO question
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/15/01 6:49 PM, Brian J Carlson (brian@net.bluemoon.net) wrote:

> Does anyone know the RPO class that was assigned to the train 580 Between
> Renovo and erie. I am pretty sure it was a BM70k or BM70ka

For what era?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:00:36 -0400
Subject: [PRR] N Scale Brass Steam Listing
From: Jerry Britton 

Thanks to those who've been sending in info on previously released N scale
brass steam locomotives in PRR livery. Please, keep it coming...but first
check what we've already got so as to not duplicate effort...

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/n_steam.ws4d

Anyone have the details on the various M-1/M-1a configs from Key?

Though a lower priority, I am doing the same type of list for electrics...

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/n_electric.ws4d

Thanks in advance!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:02:09 -0400
Subject: [PRR] New Keystone
From: Jerry Britton 

The summer issue of The Keystone arrived today.

Those of you who model the WWII era are going to go nuts!!! A huge article
on War-Emergency Coaches by Chuck Blardone!

Also articles on #1361 at Horseshoe Curve and the story of Bennett Levin's
restoration of EP22 #5809.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:21:21 -0400

If we are sending in votes for PRR electrics -
I have two of the Alpha E-44's need 8 more for my project.
Along with about 5 or 6 P5 types.
Hopefully somebody will build a shell and an underframe for the E-44 - or
how about a plastic unit - limited run type

The R1 and DD2 would be nice addition to my electric fleet, as would an FF2.
But with brass prices in the 500 to 800 range per unit, maybe I'll switch to
a non-electrified area of the PRR.

I've never had a problem with the trucks (with my Alpha's) shorting like the
Alco E-44 have - I have seen several at shows - A friend has filed a bit off
the back of the step to let the truck swing a little further.

You should be able to find the Alpha (Baldwin/Westinghouse built) E2c and
E3b - pricey if you can find them.
I forget if Alpha did an (GE built) E2b


Cos

Cos Communications, Inc.
Home Page
Rail Road Pages

>I would like to see a reasonably priced DD-2 and would buy one that is RTR.
>I've got a ton of brass waiting to be painted "some day".  The idea of
resin
>shells is a great one, thanks Bruce, but add E2b and E2c to that list, too.
>Lew Matt

Gee Lew,

I dunno...they're a little to modern for me ...of course, with readily
available resin I might go more modern (NOT!), but then we should also add
the E-44 to the list, and THAT loco has drive available already (Stewart).
Would any commercial drives work for the E-2b or E-2c?

Happy Rails
Bruce




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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:07:35 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Keystone

Sounds great. . . can't wait ! ! 
Jon S.

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From: "J. Brandon" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Trees at the Curve
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:26:18 -0400

I suspect that the PRR, like the N&W which I can attest to, control-burned
the right-of-way to prevent fires from cinders.

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of
VVA249@aol.com
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 5:04 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: Trees at the Curve


In a message dated 6/15/01 12:54:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< It's not enough to do what most visitors would like; no trees below the
track around the entire Curve. >>

Bring back steam and WW 2 or prewar traffic levels - no trees grew through
the cinders - check the B&W films, those hills were barren!
R E Ross
Cleveland

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Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:31:28 -0400
From: Mike A 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)

I like to see some reasonably priced PRR motors(DD-2,P5a,P5b,E44a, and the E33 Yes I know the PRR don't have any E33s but the PC did) And made to the same standards as PROTO2000. Some people can't afford to buy brass!




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From: WAJK4@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 22:47:58 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

To everyone on the list, I would like to throw my small voice into the ring 
with this discussion.  I have not had the time to reply in the last week or 
two during which time this discussion has been going on, so if you will amuse 
me please, I would like to have a few points brought to the table.

1.  The museum only has one GP 30 at this time.  I would love to see more of 
one kind of engine at the museum, heck, I would love to see every piece of 
PRR equipment (and other Pennsylvania related equipment) available (within 
reason ofcourse) at the museum so the railroading heritage of Pennsylvania 
will not be lost.
2.  As far as getting other things into the museum that would best represent 
the Conrail era, well...   there isn't much room left as it is in the outdoor 
yard, so fitting an SD 40-2 or even a GP 40-2 in there would be a challenge.  
I would love to see a CR SD 40-2 in the museum, that is probably the best 
choice for a CR museum piece.  However, with the "remodeling" of the outdoor 
yard this summer, things might change.  And as far as acquiring more land, 
the farmer who owns the land that surrounds the museum is less than willing 
to let go of his land.  
3.  If I am correct in saying, the main objective of the Railroad Museum of 
Pennsylvania (not the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum as some people think it 
is) is to restore the pieces of equipment they own as closely as they can to 
the way they originally appeared when they were new from the shop.  One 
example of not being able to do this is with the E7.  I was at the museum a 
few days after it came back from Altoona and I also commented on the paint 
scheme not being what was originally on the locomotive.  I was told that due 
to some structural problems, but most of all probably the money aspect, the 
engine was not able to be restored to the original appearance.  A lot of the 
museums projects, such as painting locomotives, are funded through donations 
and money raised by volunteers throughout the year.

I hope I did not ruin anyone's evening with this email, and it was not 
intended to do that at all.  If I went on a ramble at all, I do apologize, I 
am getting very tired after a long day at work and I probably should have 
waited until my next day off to venture into unchartered territory for 
myself.  I have not been an active participant in discussions, so hopefully 
this will boost my self confidence in being able to discuss more about the 
Pennsy on this list.  One last thing, even if you cannot donate your time as 
a volunteer to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, please look into becoming 
a member of the museum.  There are lots of benefits that go along with 
sponsorship.  Thanks for your time.


Walt

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:02:17 EDT
Subject: [PRR] PRR Gennesis F Unit Ad

Dear List & Friends,
By now I'm sure you've all had a chance to see the two page ad in the July 
issue
(pages 14&15) of Model Railroader for the new Athearn Gennesis PRR F Units.
If you're anything like me, I'm sure you found the ad nothing short of 
wonderful. If not,
feel free to hit delete now ! 
I've had the honor of being contacted by a Mr. Harry Webber. Harry is the 
Creative
Director at SMART which is the ad agencey responsible for all the recent 
Athearn
print ads. Harrry has told me about, and asked me to pass on to all who would 
be 
of interest, the fact that Athearn and SMART are tossing around the 
possibility of offering a limited run poster of the photo montage used in the 
ad. This poster would be offered at the NMRA Convention in St. Louis  BUT. . 
.  Athearn is on the fence as to weather or not there would be enough demand 
for the poster to go through with it.
This, my fellow brethren, is where we come in !  Harry would like for anyone 
who 
would be interested in this project to e-mail him  ( 
smartcommco@earthlink.net )
with your thoughts and interest. He will in turn relay this info. to the 
powers to be at Athearn. I'm sure if we all can pull together on this we can 
make this project a 
reality ! !
Please get back to Harry A.S.A.P. as they really have to get humping on this 
to 
make it a go !  Also, please forward this message to anyone you feel would be 
interested who is not on The List.

Thanks,
Jon Sbordone
PRRT&HS #3079



 

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From: "Brian J Carlson" 
Subject: [PRR] RPO Question rephrased
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 23:40:43 -0400

I will elaborate on my question.

Does anyone know the RPO class that was assigned to the train 580 Between
Renovo and Erie in 1957. Photos of train 580 would be extremely helpful. My
initial thought is it was a BM70k or BM70ka

Brian J Carlson
Cheektowaga NY


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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 01:03:34 EDT
Subject: [PRR] RRMOPa - prioritities

1)   I know that the RR Museuem is "of Pennsylvania" not of THE Pennsylvania 
- I belong to the "friends" even though I am to far away to contribute 
anything but money (the names of two of my ancestors are on the brass plates, 
in the exhibit hall)
2.)   I'm an older, steam buff, type fan - I realize that history moves 
forward behind advancing technology - but after  the GP-7, all diesels look 
alike to me and I could care less what you call 'em or paint 'em (don't get 
upset - just realize that, for the most part it's guys like me - over 50 - 
with the $$$ to fund these projects)
3.)      I love the PRR and the Museum, but it torques me, today, that they 
accepted the one of a kind "Rail Whale" and this very few of a kind GP- 
whatever and turned down an example of an H-21 hopper 1 of something like 
20,000 - had to be the "soul" of the Pennsy personally I'd prefer to see the 
operable GP - whatevers dangled as "trade bait" to try to get the I-1 back 
from Buffalo or the derelict P-5 back from St Louis. 
     Or even to raise money to buy and restore the H-21 from the Strasburg RR
    Just my 2 cents
Dick Ross
Cleveland

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From: "pgrace" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Keystone
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:10:35 +0100

I agree,

Not only an interesting issue but I even got mine here in the UK arround the
the time you got it in the US

Patrick Grace

www.prr.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Britton" 
To: "PRR-Talk LIST" 
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 12:02 AM
Subject: [PRR] New Keystone


> The summer issue of The Keystone arrived today.
>
> Those of you who model the WWII era are going to go nuts!!! A huge article
> on War-Emergency Coaches by Chuck Blardone!
>
> Also articles on #1361 at Horseshoe Curve and the story of Bennett Levin's
> restoration of EP22 #5809.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: "pgrace" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 09:43:43 +0100

Just a comment, if anyone is thinking of modelling X995 do not use the Roco
Rc5 as the car body is very different to the Rc4 used. Currently the best
model is a Lima Rc2, though I believe that Roco will produce an Rc1-4
soon...

Patrick Grace


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike A" 
To: "PRR-Talk" 
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] a trial balloon (reply requested)


> I like to see some reasonably priced PRR motors(DD-2,P5a,P5b,E44a, and the
E33 Yes I know the PRR don't have any E33s but the PC did) And made to the
same standards as PROTO2000. Some people can't afford to buy brass!
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 08:16:41 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

With respect to the E-7 as an example. The cost for DGLE is the same as
Tuscan Red. The cost of the structural changes such as removing the
lifting rings may have some merit in fact. But the truth remains that
the cost of paint and the labor to apply it is a constant. If the policy
of the museum is to achieve original appearance than the E-7 should be
DGLE. I don't think it matters much. Sure PC should be reprinted. I do
believe that the collection must be representative of the entire
Commonwealth. For instance, the N-23 body at Altoona's RMM, is available
and would be terrific painted for the Cambria and Indiana. 

A GE turbine or very early U boat as a product of Erie is as important
to showcase and interpret as is a product of Baldwin. Maybe a deal can
eventually be struck with the Museum in Northeast to obtain their NYC
(First Model) U-boat.

The museum will have to find an off line location (indoors) to secure
pieces of significance (ala Smithsonian) and rotate the exhibits in the
home location. Repeat business (visitors) are the result of fresh
exhibits!

We are approaching a period of time that many locally significant
artifacts are going to loose their "hosts", and we need to keep not only
an eye on the past but an eye on the future!

Bennett Levin

WAJK4@aol.com wrote:
> 
> To everyone on the list, I would like to throw my small voice into the ring
> with this discussion.  I have not had the time to reply in the last week or
> two during which time this discussion has been going on, so if you will amuse
> me please, I would like to have a few points brought to the table.
> 
> 1.  The museum only has one GP 30 at this time.  I would love to see more of
> one kind of engine at the museum, heck, I would love to see every piece of
> PRR equipment (and other Pennsylvania related equipment) available (within
> reason ofcourse) at the museum so the railroading heritage of Pennsylvania
> will not be lost.
> 2.  As far as getting other things into the museum that would best represent
> the Conrail era, well...   there isn't much room left as it is in the outdoor
> yard, so fitting an SD 40-2 or even a GP 40-2 in there would be a challenge.
> I would love to see a CR SD 40-2 in the museum, that is probably the best
> choice for a CR museum piece.  However, with the "remodeling" of the outdoor
> yard this summer, things might change.  And as far as acquiring more land,
> the farmer who owns the land that surrounds the museum is less than willing
> to let go of his land.
> 3.  If I am correct in saying, the main objective of the Railroad Museum of
> Pennsylvania (not the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum as some people think it
> is) is to restore the pieces of equipment they own as closely as they can to
> the way they originally appeared when they were new from the shop.  One
> example of not being able to do this is with the E7.  I was at the museum a
> few days after it came back from Altoona and I also commented on the paint
> scheme not being what was originally on the locomotive.  I was told that due
> to some structural problems, but most of all probably the money aspect, the
> engine was not able to be restored to the original appearance.  A lot of the
> museums projects, such as painting locomotives, are funded through donations
> and money raised by volunteers throughout the year.
> 
> I hope I did not ruin anyone's evening with this email, and it was not
> intended to do that at all.  If I went on a ramble at all, I do apologize, I
> am getting very tired after a long day at work and I probably should have
> waited until my next day off to venture into unchartered territory for
> myself.  I have not been an active participant in discussions, so hopefully
> this will boost my self confidence in being able to discuss more about the
> Pennsy on this list.  One last thing, even if you cannot donate your time as
> a volunteer to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania, please look into becoming
> a member of the museum.  There are lots of benefits that go along with
> sponsorship.  Thanks for your time.
> 
> Walt
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "lmatt" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] RRMofPa - prioritities
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 08:55:51 -0400

Dick:

Bravo for this great message.  I agree whole heartedly that the youngsters
make the decisions and we pay the bills.  You are right though, we must make
our generation's things happen while we are still here or what we like and
revere won't be preserved.

Lew Matt

----- Original Message -----

 I'm an older, steam buff, type fan - just realize that, for the most part
it's guys like me - over 50 -
> with the $$$ to fund these projects)
it torques me that they
> accepted the one of a kind "Rail Whale" and this very few of a kind GP-
> whatever and turned down an example of an H-21 hopper 1 of something like
> 20,000 - had to be the "soul" of the Pennsy personally I'd prefer to see
the
> operable GP - whatevers dangled as "trade bait" to try to get the I-1 back
> from Buffalo or the derelict P-5 back from St Louis.
>      Or even to raise money to buy and restore the H-21 from the Strasburg
RR




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From: "Bill Lane" 
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:01:43 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRSL Baldwin AS-16

Hi All,

I asked this about a year ago without much success. Does anyone have any
drawings and or photos showing the fuel tank  and fuel tank area on a PRSL
Baldwin AS-16? I am looking for information on units 6008 & 6009.  I
understand that this unit was made in HO. Perhaps you could lend me the fuel
tank for a few days to look at and measure. I would prefer the real drawings
though. Your efforts will not go unrewarded. I have LOTS of PRR construction
drawings and builders photos that can be copied and traded.

Thank You
Bill


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Lane" 
Subject: [PRR] PRSL Baldwin AS-16
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:01:43 -0400

Hi All,

I asked this about a year ago without much success. Does anyone have any
drawings and or photos showing the fuel tank  and fuel tank area on a PRSL
Baldwin AS-16? I am looking for information on units 6008 & 6009.  I
understand that this unit was made in HO. Perhaps you could lend me the fuel
tank for a few days to look at and measure. I would prefer the real drawings
though. Your efforts will not go unrewarded. I have LOTS of PRR construction
drawings and builders photos that can be copied and traded.

Thank You
Bill


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From: "Bill Bigler" 
Subject: [PRR] 1361
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:03:54 -0400

What's the latest on 1361?  Haven't heard a thing for over a year.

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. &
     downtown Williamsport WWII


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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:10:48 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Keystone

In a message dated 6/16/01 1:48:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
pgrace@aspects.net writes:

<< Not only an interesting issue but I even got mine here in the UK arround 
the
 the time you got it in the US
 
 Patrick Grace >>

I find it amazing that The Keystone can get to The UK faster than it can get 
to
Milwaukee, WI. My copy is most likly sitting in some Amtrak mail handling car 
stuck in the yards in Chicago ! !  :-) 
Jon S.

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:04:08 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

In a message dated 06/16/2001 8:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes:

<< 
 The museum will have to find an off line location (indoors) to secure
 pieces of significance (ala Smithsonian) and rotate the exhibits in the
 home location. Repeat business (visitors) are the result of fresh
 exhibits!
  >>
Sounds like a good use for the Sam Rea shops when they close in Sept.  A 
donation by NS of the facilities to the state might help soothe the feelings 
of being betrayed by NS executives.  Could even come with all equipment to do 
the restorations.

Rich Orr

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From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:15:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361

I think the new 1/4 roundhouse for the Altoona RR museum will be built
before we see the K4 there. Scuttlebutt is that 1361 will be pulling the
trains for railfest 2001. Don't hold your breath !


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From: "pgrace" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Keystone
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 23:27:52 +0100

Even more supprising considering that my local sorting office is the second
worst in the UK after London and the magazine came via Copenhagen...

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: ; 
Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Keystone


> In a message dated 6/16/01 1:48:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> pgrace@aspects.net writes:
>
> << Not only an interesting issue but I even got mine here in the UK
arround
> the
>  the time you got it in the US
>
>  Patrick Grace >>
>
> I find it amazing that The Keystone can get to The UK faster than it can
get
> to
> Milwaukee, WI. My copy is most likly sitting in some Amtrak mail handling
car
> stuck in the yards in Chicago ! !  :-)
> Jon S.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 09:34:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] PRR Model part

Lists,

    I was given another obsolete model to try to fix. This time it is
that Lilliput/Lifelike 4-6-0 that has some sort of resemblence to a PRR
G5. Not really though as it has european style drivers. Evidently the
owner had placed to many cars on the train and in turn stripped the
gear. Anyone have any junkers in their collection in which a driver can
be salvaged? I tried matching a NWSL gear up but nothing is available
with the same amount of teeth or the same diameter. Thanks, Gary




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 13:12:18 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] RRMOPa - prioritities

Dick and all,

Not to make this a long drawn out thread but in my most humble opinion, I 
would agree to some degree but I am a realist.  I think the I-1 may be a lost 
cause to the folks that own it now.  It may not make it's way to the museum 
until the group is in some form of dire straits and can allow the museum to 
take possession with some form of clause to include their prior efforts.  The 
museum also needs the GP-30 and again in my most humble opinion restored to 
it's original PRR spec.'s when funds become fully available and in the 
meantime keep it in the CONRAIL paint to preserve what is left?  The H-21 
well if donated it should be restored and I agree it needs to be considered 
as well as the two X-29's still in work service paint. One is an Express car 
and the other a mixed merchandise car.  And then there are others too.  But 
more than that, what cannot be saved as an original piece then perhaps in 
miniature with a photo of and original.  The Pennsy meant so much to so many 
and to attempt to divide the supporters of the RR would be wrong.  As you 
say, "for the most part it's guys like me - over 50 - with the $$$ to fund 
these projects," it is the younger guys as well that take Mom and the kids to 
the museum to see what has been preserved and that pays the bills too, on a 
daily basis.  Then Lew Matt makes a statement like this, "I agree whole 
heartedly that the youngsters make the decisions and we pay the bills,," 
which can be very damaging.  Remember, after we older guys are long gone 
they, the younger guys like Brian, Kris, Gary and others like them have to 
carry the torch so let's not divide ourselves.  I think that if you talk to 
the younger guys I think that they would tell you that change can't get past 
the old guard.  But let's not go there.  We all contribute what we can when 
we can.  We can all do more, at some point...  We need all parts of the PRR, 
even such things as the cast iron whistle post and bell signs that existed.  
My Uncle is the proud owner of a cast iron grade crossing sign as well as a 
J1 Keystone and I would love to see him donate them to the museum, but I am 
not sure if and when he will, they are his not mine and he will have 5 kids 
to settle his estate  and not I. My point is I love all things PENNSY and 
believe that whether they are a scale representation or the real thing, we 
need to preserve as many as possible.  If you have your own views email me 
privately and I will address your concerns off list. 

Greg Martin 

<< 3.)      I love the PRR and the Museum, but it torque's me, today, that 
they accepted the one of a kind "Rail Whale" and this very few of a kind GP- 
whatever and turned down an example of an H-21 hopper 1 of something like 
20,000 - had to be the "soul" of the Pennsy personally I'd prefer to see the 
operable GP - whatever's dangled as "trade bait" to try to get the I-1 back 
from Buffalo or the derelict P-5 back from St. Louis. 
  Or even to raise money to buy and restore the H-21 from the Strasburg RR
Just my 2 cents
Dick Ross
 Cleveland >>

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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 15:26:30 EDT
Subject: [PRR] RRMOPa - prioritities and a plug!

In a message dated 6/17/01 1:12:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes:

<< restored to it's original PRR spec.'s when funds become fully available 
and in the meantime keep it in the CONRAIL paint to preserve what is left?   
>>

    I agree with most of what you say here - BUT, as shown in "Mileposts" the 
unit is currently in a "pseudo" PRR paint scheme, as applied by the private 
owner whose heirs donated it to the Museum.
    Readers of "Mileposts" (ie - those who help support the Museum 
financially) will get a vote in the "Black (DGLE) vs Blue" decision. The time 
frame, on the repaint, is indicated as "the next 14 months" so there's still 
time to make a donation and get a vote!
    After following the discussion here, my vote will be for PC Black, if 
this unit ever wore it. 
    The Museum already has a Pennsy Geep & Conrail Blue is still visible 
along the ROW. Hopefully, either NS or CSX may donate a more approprIate Blue 
Unit - down the road, somewhere.
    Personally, I'd still prefer to see this unit used as "trade bait" for 
something more distinctively Pennsy...

Dick

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From: BBReynolds@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 18:31:06 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

In a message dated 6/15/2001 11:34:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

> Nah, just ten minutes for a hundred railfans donning black clothing equipped
>  with chain saws with flashlights attached by duct tape!!!

That is the scariest image ever presented on this listserver!!!!

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA

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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:42:23 -0400
From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: FA2 Dynamic Brake placement

We all owe Greg Martin a big thank you for digging out the information to help others make the FA2 look more like it should as a Pennsy unit.  Living in a area dominated by ATSF, SP, and UP, it is hard to find someone who doesn't cringe when a person mentions another railroad.
Again, thank you very much for the help. 
__________________________________________________________________
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:38:39 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Sights & Shops

Ir is probably one of the best ideas!

Bennett Levin

BBReynolds@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/15/2001 11:34:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:
> 
> > Nah, just ten minutes for a hundred railfans donning black clothing equipped
> >  with chain saws with flashlights attached by duct tape!!!
> 
> That is the scariest image ever presented on this listserver!!!!
> 
> Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA
> 
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:47:35 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?

We sure missed an opportunity with the Harrisburg Engine House.



Bennett

WAJK4@aol.com wrote:
> 
>    Part 1.1    Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
>            Encoding: 7bit

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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 20:53:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/17/01 8:47 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote:

> We sure missed an opportunity with the Harrisburg Engine House.
> 
> 
Uggghh...please don't remind me!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:22:12 -0400
From: Jerry Jordak 
Subject: [PRR] Re: 1361

Bill Bigler wrote:
 
> What's the latest on 1361?  Haven't heard a thing for over a year.
 
I saw the 1361 in the Steamtown shops on Memorial Day. It didn't look
a whole lot different then when I saw it four years ago...

>From what the ranger told us, there is one guy working on the
restoration. Yes, a crew of *1*. So while the work is funded by the
state of PA, the actual work is going slowly. I think the ranger said
they plan to be done by this fall, but I'm guessing next fall may be
more realistic. Don't hold me to that...I'm not a steam locomotive
preservation expert, but from listening to the ranger describe how long
it took to make parts and perform certain tasks, I can't see the 1361
being ready to run in 3 or 4 months...

-JWJ


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From: WAJK4@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:26:36 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] RRMOPa - prioritities

To everyone,
       I totally agree with everyone who wants the GP 30 returned to it's 
original paint scheme.  However, I must side with the CR fans out there as 
well.  Maybe painting the GP 30 into the CR scheme it wore would be an idea 
for now...  that is until a CR unit can be obtained.  I have a feeling that a 
CR unit will not become available for a few years down the road, but the 
museum has surprised me before.  Now, as for painting the GP 30 into the 
correct PRR paint scheme after the CR paint is worn for awhile may only be 
possible if donations are made specifically for this project.  I don't know 
if this will fly or not, but it's worth a shot.  I will admit, I come up with 
some crazy ideas, but sometimes they work.
       And I need to make a plug here as well, and partly reinforcing what 
was said by another list member...  if you join the museum as a member, you 
not only benefit yourself by free admission and other things, you also get to 
have your say in some of the projects (such as the GP 30) from time to time.  
I believe the cost is only $25 a year, and it's tax deductible.  Just 
something for you all to think about again.  Thanks for your time again.


Walt

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From: WAJK4@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:27:13 EDT
Subject: [PRR] my Johnstown trip...

Thanks to everyone on and off list who provided me with information about 
Johnstown and the surrounding area.  Even though my departure time was 
delayed and I didn't have much time to spend in the area, it was still 
enjoyable.  I can't wait to get back to that area someday to experience 
everything in that area.  Thanks again for all of your help.


Walt

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Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:36:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] RRMOPa - prioritities
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/17/01 9:26 PM, WAJK4@aol.com (WAJK4@aol.com) wrote:

> And I need to make a plug here as well, and partly reinforcing what
> was said by another list member...  if you join the museum as a member, you
> not only benefit yourself by free admission and other things, you also get to
> have your say in some of the projects (such as the GP 30) from time to time.
> I believe the cost is only $25 a year, and it's tax deductible.  Just
> something for you all to think about again.  Thanks for your time again.
> 
I've been a member for years. Yes, cost is $25 per year. Besides entry for
you, your spouse, your children, AND your children's grandparents, as often
as you like, you also get four (or five) issues of The Milepost. Though not
just Pennsy, this b/w glossy newsletter runs about two dozen pages and is
quite informative. Definitely a winner!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 21:59:11 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] RRMOPa - prioritities

In a message dated 6/17/01 9:39:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< 've been a member for years. Yes, cost is $25 per year. Besides entry for
 you, your spouse, your children, AND your children's grandparents, as often
 as you like, you also get four (or five) issues of The Milepost. Though not
 just Pennsy, this b/w glossy newsletter runs about two dozen pages and is
 quite informative. Definitely a winner! >>

The web site is: www.rrmuseumpa.org and the "Snail Mail" is P. O.  Box 125, 
Strasburg, Pa. 17579.  Memberships in the "friends" are available at several 
levels, with various levels of "bennies"
All Donations, cash or volunteer time, are welcomed and gratefully accepted, 
and acknowledged.

Dick Ross
(A long way West)
Cleveland, Ohio.

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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 03:20:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Derrick J Brashear 
Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch remnant photos

I uploaded some more in addition to the 3 I had of the old overgrade
bridge north of Alba; You can now find shots of where the crossing was in
Canton, the Genesee Brewing buildings in Sodus Point, a shot looking out
over the boat dock made from the cut down coal pier there, and a few shots
of the station in Elmira; All are at:
http://prr.dementia.org/places/elmira-branch

The additions are from Saturday and yesterday.

-D



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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:03:11 -0400
From: Phil Tripician 
Subject: [PRR] Brass Engine Painters


  
  I'd like to get the names of some good painters for PRR brass loco's.
I have three that are factory fresh and unpainted.
 
        1. I-1sa imported by Key

        2. K-4s imported by Sunset

        3. H-9s imported by Sunset

   I'd like them moderately weathered and have them conform with the
Middle
Division specifications. 

   Thanks in advance for the help.

	Trip

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From: "Steve Hoxie" 
Subject: [PRR] Scalecoat II Colors
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:08:37 -0500

After all the recent talk about paint on the PrototypeModelers list, I took
a look at http://www.weavermodels.com/page11.html where the Scalecoat II
colors are listed.  I was pleasantly surprised to see some new (at least to
me) colors.

Has anyone used PRR Freight Car Red, Box Car Red #2, or Box Car Red #3?
Comments, please!

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:32:42 -0400
From: Park Varieties 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Scalecoat II Colors

Steve and List,

The SCII PRR Freight Car Red is a very close match for the color Bowser paints
their H21's.  It is a little browner than SCII Oxide Red.  Cannot comment on
Box Car Red #2 and #3; never had an occasion to order it for customers.

Frank Brua


Steve Hoxie wrote:

> After all the recent talk about paint on the PrototypeModelers list, I took
> a look at http://www.weavermodels.com/page11.html where the Scalecoat II
> colors are listed.  I was pleasantly surprised to see some new (at least to
> me) colors.
>
> Has anyone used PRR Freight Car Red, Box Car Red #2, or Box Car Red #3?
> Comments, please!
>
> Steve Hoxie
> Pensacola FL
>
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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:00:06 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re: RRMOPa - prioritities 

In a message dated 6/19/01 2:08:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes:

<< I still miss your reasoning for not making it "as delivered" Pennsy...   >>

    The Pennsy is already well represented, including another "GP" unit - 
Little, if anything, in the museum is "as delivered" - if it was most steam 
classes would have Oil headlights.... (The H6sb is rigged for melting ice 
from switch points - the reason that this particular example survived long 
enough to be preserved)
    Although PC was not railroading's finest hour, it did exist and deserves 
to be memorialized - Conrail's representation can be left to the next 
generation - something actually delivered in CR Blue

Dick Ross

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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 00:16:41 -0400
From: Keith Tolliver 
Subject: [PRR] DD-1 in HO brass??

Have a question for the group...in the HO modeling vein did Nickel Plate 
Products ever do a DD-1 in HO scale?? Any help would be appreciated.
                               Keith Tolliver

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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:51:14 +0000
From: prrbill 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA

"Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote:
> 
> >What do I have to visit that I didn't mentioned?
> >Thanks,
> >Geoffrey
> 
> Geoffrey,
> 
> Don't forget Wilminton DE.  The passenger station there is pretty neat (see
> Trainstuff, LLC, http://www.trainstuffllc.com/index2.html for an HO model).
> In addition, Mitchell's (http://mitchells.com/), one of the East Coasts
> best hobby shop is a short cab ride away on rt 202 North.  They have lots
> of PRR brass, and a good selection of PRR books.
> 
> Also, if you have time and wheels in the Philly area, railfan around 30th
> street station, and the Grey's Ferry branch, on down to the waterfront
> (just be a weee bit careful of yourself and your belongings...some of those
> neighborhoods are a bit tough).  Another fun try at railfanning is the C&PD
> branch...tough to get to, but pretty farm country, adn some nice hikes...
> 
> Happy Rails
> Bruce
> 
> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
> Scott-Ritchey Research Center
> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

Geoffrey,

Bruce hits the nail on the head with his recommendations.  If you're
going to be in the Philadelphia area for any extended period, two other
areas within Philadelphia for good photos are the Frankfort Junction and
the Wayne Junction.  

And if you're into modeling, a trip to the Nicholas Smith Trains store
is well worth the side trip.  Located about 40 minutes west of 30th
Street Station on West Chester Pike in Broomall, PA, they carry all
scales of trains.  The website is .  

Bill Morlitz


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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 11:39:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoffrey Van Dooren 
Subject: [PRR] Visiting the USA

Hi,
I live in Belgium and I will visit the US from the 18
of July till the 29th.
I will visit New York, Philadelphia, Strasburg,
Lancaster, Harrisburg, Baltimore and back to NYC.
I will combine this whit my final project about the
PRR in 1944 and Amtrak in 2000 about NYC-Chicago
routes.

I have some questions which I hope that can be
answered.

Can I visit Sunnyside Yard, how?
Is there anything left from the LIRR car float ops?
Are there special book&magazine stores related to
railroading in NYC?
I take a clocker to Philadelphia. What can still be
seen on the NEC build by the PRR?
What can be seen in Strasburg beside the Museum and
the railroad? Are there youth hotels?
What can be seen in Harrisburg, are there youth
hotels?
What are the attractions from Baltimore?

What do I have to visit that I didn't mentioned?
Thanks,
Geoffrey


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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:47:49 -0400
Subject: [PRR] 1941 Division Accounting Maps Now Online
From: Jerry Britton 

Thanks to Bob O'Leary, we now have a full set of 1941 division accounting
maps online...

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/

I have a set of 1951 maps promised to me for scanning, so they'll likely be
next.

I think I have a full set (copies) of the 1920 maps.

Anyone have the 1956 maps? Would likely have actually been released 11/1/55.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:55:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/20/01 2:39 PM, Geoffrey Van Dooren (geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com) wrote:

> What can be seen in Strasburg beside the Museum and
> the railroad?

Isn't the museum enough?    Seriously, the Museum is the best there is
for ex-PRR equipment. You will spend hours there. Then, at the Strasburg,
don't miss the second floor of the main gift shop. Excellent selection of
books and videos.

There used to be a shop down the street, Depot Attic, but they've moved into
Lancaster. They were a good source for railroadiana.

> What can be seen in Harrisburg?

Harrisburg Passenger Station is well restored; as is HARRIS tower just a few
blocks away. Most of the physical plant on the east shore of the river has
been changed significantly since PRR times.

At the north end of Harrisburg you have to see the Rockville Bridge. Plan on
an hour or so if you want to experience it from all angles.

West shore of the river is Enola yard. Not very busy these days, except for
the diesel shop. The old crews dorm across the street from the diesel shop
is now Barlup's Appliance store.

Good train watching can be had on the west shore, about five miles above
Enola, at Marysville. Better yet, continue north on Route 11/15 about five
more miles to the Sheetz convenience store on the right. You can park and
sit about 50 feet off the main line. Three tracks now; was four in PRR days.
This area is called Cove.

> What are the attractions from Baltimore?
> 
If you are a general rail buff, the B&O Railroad Museum. However, they have
zero PRR equipment.

The PRR's Pennsylvania Station still stands and is in use, but it used to
stand alone and proud. Now it has been smothered by road ramps and other
buildings. Too bad, but worth a visit.

Plan to eat lunch in downtown Baltimore at the Inner Harbor. Not a rail
theme, but a great environment...especially if you like seafood.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:19:50 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA



Jerry Britton wrote (in part):
. . . 
> 
> Plan to eat lunch in downtown Baltimore at the Inner Harbor. Not a rail
> theme, but a great environment...especially if you like seafood.
>
> Jerry Britton,
==================================================
If you are a model RRer, walk the few blocks from the Inner Harbor to
M.B. Klein.  A great hobby shop.  Some of the best prices in the USA.
-- 
Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org


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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:21:38 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA

>What do I have to visit that I didn't mentioned?
>Thanks,
>Geoffrey

Geoffrey,

Don't forget Wilminton DE.  The passenger station there is pretty neat (see
Trainstuff, LLC, http://www.trainstuffllc.com/index2.html for an HO model).
In addition, Mitchell's (http://mitchells.com/), one of the East Coasts
best hobby shop is a short cab ride away on rt 202 North.  They have lots
of PRR brass, and a good selection of PRR books.

Also, if you have time and wheels in the Philly area, railfan around 30th
street station, and the Grey's Ferry branch, on down to the waterfront
(just be a weee bit careful of yourself and your belongings...some of those
neighborhoods are a bit tough).  Another fun try at railfanning is the C&PD
branch...tough to get to, but pretty farm country, adn some nice hikes...

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:28:54 -0400

Geoffrey:

Sunnyside yard now belongs to Amtrak. Suggest you contact Amtrak's Northeast
Corridor Headquarters in Philadelphia for permission to visit, Since you are
a student from abroad writing a thesis, you will probably get permission as
long as you sign a liability waiver. The New York Cross Harbor Railroad now
operates the remaining carfloats in New York Harbor, from Pennsy's
Greenville Piers facility in New Jersey. Contact them (they have a website).
I haven't been to New York in a quarter century, but Quadrant Press used to
have an excellent bookstore with both railroad and steamship books on 43rd
St.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoffrey Van Dooren" 
To: "PRR talk list" ; "PRR-Modeling"
; "prrFAX" 
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 2:39 PM
Subject: [PRR] Visiting the USA


> Hi,
> I live in Belgium and I will visit the US from the 18
> of July till the 29th.
> I will visit New York, Philadelphia, Strasburg,
> Lancaster, Harrisburg, Baltimore and back to NYC.
> I will combine this whit my final project about the
> PRR in 1944 and Amtrak in 2000 about NYC-Chicago
> routes.
>
> I have some questions which I hope that can be
> answered.
>
> Can I visit Sunnyside Yard, how?
> Is there anything left from the LIRR car float ops?
> Are there special book&magazine stores related to
> railroading in NYC?
> I take a clocker to Philadelphia. What can still be
> seen on the NEC build by the PRR?
> What can be seen in Strasburg beside the Museum and
> the railroad? Are there youth hotels?
> What can be seen in Harrisburg, are there youth
> hotels?
> What are the attractions from Baltimore?
>
> What do I have to visit that I didn't mentioned?
> Thanks,
> Geoffrey
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:25:33 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Visiting The USA

In a message dated 6/20/01 11:46:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com writes:

<< What can be seen in Strasburg beside the Museum and
 the railroad?  >>

Geoff 
 Two items in Strasburg not already mentioned are;
The Red Caboose Motel. An interesting colection of
prototype cabooses and passenger rolling stock (mostly
Pennsylvania RR) that have been made into a motel &
restaurant.
Right next to the motel is the Toy Train Colectors Museum.
An interesting colection of toy trains (mostly standard gauge)
through out the ages. 

Enjoy your visit!!
Jon Sbordone

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From: "Brian J Carlson" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 17:29:43 -0400

One thing Jerry missed is that the B&O Museum has a PRR GG1 or at least they
did when I was there.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Britton" 
To: "Geoffrey Van Dooren" ; "PRR-Talk LIST"

Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA


> On 6/20/01 2:39 PM, Geoffrey Van Dooren (geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
> > What can be seen in Strasburg beside the Museum and
> > the railroad?
>
> Isn't the museum enough?    Seriously, the Museum is the best there
is
> for ex-PRR equipment. You will spend hours there. Then, at the Strasburg,
> don't miss the second floor of the main gift shop. Excellent selection of
> books and videos.
>
> There used to be a shop down the street, Depot Attic, but they've moved
into
> Lancaster. They were a good source for railroadiana.
>
> > What can be seen in Harrisburg?
>
> Harrisburg Passenger Station is well restored; as is HARRIS tower just a
few
> blocks away. Most of the physical plant on the east shore of the river has
> been changed significantly since PRR times.
>
> At the north end of Harrisburg you have to see the Rockville Bridge. Plan
on
> an hour or so if you want to experience it from all angles.
>
> West shore of the river is Enola yard. Not very busy these days, except
for
> the diesel shop. The old crews dorm across the street from the diesel shop
> is now Barlup's Appliance store.
>
> Good train watching can be had on the west shore, about five miles above
> Enola, at Marysville. Better yet, continue north on Route 11/15 about five
> more miles to the Sheetz convenience store on the right. You can park and
> sit about 50 feet off the main line. Three tracks now; was four in PRR
days.
> This area is called Cove.
>
> > What are the attractions from Baltimore?
> >
> If you are a general rail buff, the B&O Railroad Museum. However, they
have
> zero PRR equipment.
>
> The PRR's Pennsylvania Station still stands and is in use, but it used to
> stand alone and proud. Now it has been smothered by road ramps and other
> buildings. Too bad, but worth a visit.
>
> Plan to eat lunch in downtown Baltimore at the Inner Harbor. Not a rail
> theme, but a great environment...especially if you like seafood.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
>
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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>


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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:31:50 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA

In a message dated 6/20/01 2:38:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
brian@net.bluemoon.net writes:

<< One thing Jerry missed is that the B&O Museum has a PRR GG1 or at least 
they
 did when I was there. >>

Brian,
 And They still do. Although maybe not the same one when you last
visited. Untill 1995 the 4890 was on display at the B&O Museum. She
was then sent to The National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, WI. The
4890 was replaced at The B&O Museum by the 4876. 4876 is "famous"
for her role in The Federal accident in Washington D.C. in 1953. 
Jon S.

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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:01:13 -0400
From: davep 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA

JONS6755@aol.com wrote:
 
> In a message dated 6/20/01 2:38:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> brian@net.bluemoon.net writes:
 
> << One thing Jerry missed is that the B&O Museum has a PRR GG1 or at least
> they  did when I was there. >>

> Brian,
>  And They still do. Although maybe not the same one when you last
> visited. Untill 1995 the 4890 was on display at the B&O Museum. She
> was then sent to The National Railroad Museum in Green Bay, WI. The
> 4890 was replaced at The B&O Museum by the 4876. 4876 is "famous"
> for her role in The Federal accident in Washington D.C. in 1953.

	...last time I was there (some years back) they also had a
	'Little Joe' style GE, from the CSS&SB....

	(and, of course, much else....)

	best
	dwp

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 22:40:49 EDT
Subject: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge

Dear List,
 I know it wasn't often that they did this. . . but I know from time to time
PRR GG1s would run over Hellgate Bridge as run through power. I know
this had to happen, as I have color pictures of Pennsy Gs in New Haven.
My question is. Does anyone have a source for pictures (in color, if possible)
of PRR Gs on Hellgate ? I can't seem to locate any.

Thank You,
Jon S.

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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:37:21 -0700
Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting the USA - Sunnyside Yard and NEC
From: "Douglas Nelson" 

Geoffrey:

> Can I visit Sunnyside Yard, how?

Sunnyside is a great place to visit and its busy most of the day.
Significant areas of the yard can be seen from the roads that cross it.  One
important note:  New walls and fences have been constructed at several
points around the yard, but this problem can be solved by bringing a
5-gallon plastic paint bucket ($3 at Home Depot or most paint stores) to
stand on.  It provides just enough height to see over the walls and its
handy for carrying your camera.

The best spot is at the stairs down to yard from the Queens Blvd./Diagonal
Street bridge.  This is near Q Tower and the ready tracks where trains park
before heading down to Penn Station.  The Honeywell St. (accessible only
from Northern Blvd.) bridge provides a good view of the engine terminal.
The Harold Ave. (39th St. bridge) provides good views of the mainline (LIRR
and Amtrak/New Haven), Harold Tower, and the Manhattan skyline.  The access
road to the former Railway Express facility (in ruins) leads to the balloon
tracks.  You can get to Sunnyside by subway or a short hike from the LIRR
Woodside Station.

> Is there anything left from the LIRR car float ops?

The remnants of the LIRR float bridges in Long Island City, not far from
Sunnyside, are now part of a waterfront park.

> Are there special book&magazine stores related to
> railroading in NYC?

Don't miss the New York Transit Museum annex and store in Grand Central
Terminal (or Grand Central for that matter).  While you are there, take a
short commuter train trip to Croton Harmon and back.


> I take a clocker to Philadelphia. What can still be
> seen on the NEC build by the PRR?

Much of the NEC is still a monument to the PRR.  You will see the Bergen
Tunnels, Hudson Tower (and several other towers), Newark Penn Station is a
gem, as are several other stations along the line and 30th Street itself.
Be sure to walk across the parking deck on the north side of 30th St.
Station for a good view of the engine terminal, passenger yard, and the High
Line.

Have a great trip!

Doug Nelson
dougnelson@mindspring.com
Mill Valley, CA

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:35:43 -0400

Jon:

I think the GG1's in New Haven were during the Penn Central era. Remember,
the PC took over the New Haven in 1969 and Amtrak was not formed until 1971,
so for two years PC operated electrified passenfger service between New
Haven and Washington. The G's were not immediately repainted PC and the only
modern electrics the NH had were the EP-5 "Jets", which went into Grand
Central, along with the FL-9's, so GG1's were needed on through PC trains.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:40 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge


> Dear List,
>  I know it wasn't often that they did this. . . but I know from time to
time
> PRR GG1s would run over Hellgate Bridge as run through power. I know
> this had to happen, as I have color pictures of Pennsy Gs in New Haven.
> My question is. Does anyone have a source for pictures (in color, if
possible)
> of PRR Gs on Hellgate ? I can't seem to locate any.
>
> Thank You,
> Jon S.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:03:12 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge

I have often heard a story that there was a serious difference between
the PRR and NH catenary design over movable bridges.  The PRR hung
catenary over them while the NH did not.  The NH put a limit stop on the
pantographs to keep them from going straight up when going over the
bridges with no wire.  The G's had no such stop and the first time the
PC tried to take a G East (North?) of NY, the pan shot straight up on
the first movable bridge (Hutchinson River?) and pulled down the wire on
the far side!   As a result of this discovery, several G's were equipped
with stops for operation to NH.  It must have been an embarrassing
discovery for the PC.  But then they had lots of embarrassing
discoveries to get used to.

Can anyone confirm (or refute) this PRR urban legend?

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:
> 
> Jon:
> 
> I think the GG1's in New Haven were during the Penn Central era. Remember,
> the PC took over the New Haven in 1969 and Amtrak was not formed until 1971,
> so for two years PC operated electrified passenfger service between New
> Haven and Washington. The G's were not immediately repainted PC and the only
> modern electrics the NH had were the EP-5 "Jets", which went into Grand
> Central, along with the FL-9's, so GG1's were needed on through PC trains.
> 
> Gregg Mahlkov
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:40 PM
> Subject: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
> 
> > Dear List,
> >  I know it wasn't often that they did this. . . but I know from time to
> time
> > PRR GG1s would run over Hellgate Bridge as run through power. I know
> > this had to happen, as I have color pictures of Pennsy Gs in New Haven.
> > My question is. Does anyone have a source for pictures (in color, if
> possible)
> > of PRR Gs on Hellgate ? I can't seem to locate any.
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Jon S.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > "listserv@dsop.com".
> >
> >
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 


Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:03:12 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge

I have often heard a story that there was a serious difference between
the PRR and NH catenary design over movable bridges.  The PRR hung
catenary over them while the NH did not.  The NH put a limit stop on the
pantographs to keep them from going straight up when going over the
bridges with no wire.  The G's had no such stop and the first time the
PC tried to take a G East (North?) of NY, the pan shot straight up on
the first movable bridge (Hutchinson River?) and pulled down the wire on
the far side!   As a result of this discovery, several G's were equipped
with stops for operation to NH.  It must have been an embarrassing
discovery for the PC.  But then they had lots of embarrassing
discoveries to get used to.

Can anyone confirm (or refute) this PRR urban legend?

Gregg Mahlkov wrote:
> 
> Jon:
> 
> I think the GG1's in New Haven were during the Penn Central era. Remember,
> the PC took over the New Haven in 1969 and Amtrak was not formed until 1971,
> so for two years PC operated electrified passenfger service between New
> Haven and Washington. The G's were not immediately repainted PC and the only
> modern electrics the NH had were the EP-5 "Jets", which went into Grand
> Central, along with the FL-9's, so GG1's were needed on through PC trains.
> 
> Gregg Mahlkov
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:40 PM
> Subject: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
> 
> > Dear List,
> >  I know it wasn't often that they did this. . . but I know from time to
> time
> > PRR GG1s would run over Hellgate Bridge as run through power. I know
> > this had to happen, as I have color pictures of Pennsy Gs in New Haven.
> > My question is. Does anyone have a source for pictures (in color, if
> possible)
> > of PRR Gs on Hellgate ? I can't seem to locate any.
> >
> > Thank You,
> > Jon S.
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > "listserv@dsop.com".
> >
> >
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".

-- 


Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================


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From: "Chany, Christopher" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Visiting The USA
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:24:21 -0400

Geoff,
At the Red Caboose you can have lunch in the dinning car.  A real diner, at
one time it was attached to a motor that gave it the rocking along the
tracks motion.

Also if you are going to Lancaster see the station and the small engine
terminal to the west.
You will also be only a few miles away from Manheim and Rule's Model trains
another great hobby shop with a lot of PRR stuff.

Chris Chany 

-----Original Message-----
From: JONS6755@aol.com [mailto:JONS6755@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 5:26 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Visiting The USA


In a message dated 6/20/01 11:46:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com writes:

<< What can be seen in Strasburg beside the Museum and
 the railroad?  >>

Geoff 
 Two items in Strasburg not already mentioned are;
The Red Caboose Motel. An interesting colection of
prototype cabooses and passenger rolling stock (mostly
Pennsylvania RR) that have been made into a motel &
restaurant.
Right next to the motel is the Toy Train Colectors Museum.
An interesting colection of toy trains (mostly standard gauge)
through out the ages. 

Enjoy your visit!!
Jon Sbordone

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
From: aurora7@juno.com

GG-1's did, in fact, rip down NH catenary. 

Richard Glueck
Peace of the Planet Farm
Winterport, Maine

"I don't believe in an afterlife, but I am taking a change of underwear
just in case." -Woody Allen

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:32:24 -0400

Andy and list:

I had heard (I worked for PC at the time), that several adjustments had to
be made to the New Haven's catenary to permit operation of GG1's. It may
well have been at moveable bridges, although I cannot see a "no catenary"
option for moveable spans, as one could always end up with a locomotive
stopped on a span unable to move. New Haven's main was too busy to permit
that option, in my opinion.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
To: 
Cc: "PRR FAX" 
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge


> I have often heard a story that there was a serious difference between
> the PRR and NH catenary design over movable bridges.  The PRR hung
> catenary over them while the NH did not.  The NH put a limit stop on the
> pantographs to keep them from going straight up when going over the
> bridges with no wire.  The G's had no such stop and the first time the
> PC tried to take a G East (North?) of NY, the pan shot straight up on
> the first movable bridge (Hutchinson River?) and pulled down the wire on
> the far side!   As a result of this discovery, several G's were equipped
> with stops for operation to NH.  It must have been an embarrassing
> discovery for the PC.  But then they had lots of embarrassing
> discoveries to get used to.
>
> Can anyone confirm (or refute) this PRR urban legend?
>
> Gregg Mahlkov wrote:
> >
> > Jon:
> >
> > I think the GG1's in New Haven were during the Penn Central era.
Remember,
> > the PC took over the New Haven in 1969 and Amtrak was not formed until
1971,
> > so for two years PC operated electrified passenfger service between New
> > Haven and Washington. The G's were not immediately repainted PC and the
only
> > modern electrics the NH had were the EP-5 "Jets", which went into Grand
> > Central, along with the FL-9's, so GG1's were needed on through PC
trains.
> >
> > Gregg Mahlkov
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:40 PM
> > Subject: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
> >
> > > Dear List,
> > >  I know it wasn't often that they did this. . . but I know from time
to
> > time
> > > PRR GG1s would run over Hellgate Bridge as run through power. I know
> > > this had to happen, as I have color pictures of Pennsy Gs in New
Haven.
> > > My question is. Does anyone have a source for pictures (in color, if
> > possible)
> > > of PRR Gs on Hellgate ? I can't seem to locate any.
> > >
> > > Thank You,
> > > Jon S.
> > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > > "listserv@dsop.com".
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > "listserv@dsop.com".
>
> --
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Andy Miller
> asmiller@mitre.org
>
> ==================================================
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: STEVEGG1@aol.com
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:06:16 EDT
Subject: [PRR] visiting the USA

Geoff,
The B&O museum is well worth the visit. The GG1 is currently not on display, 
it is stored in a nearby yard (at least the last time I was there ).
Pennstation which is just of I-83 is worth a visit. 
Perryville, MD is a good train watching spot. This is where NS PortRoad 
(exPRR) meets the Amtrak corridor. Railfans gather at the station on Fri and 
Sat nights around 8-9PM to watch the freights come off the Port Road. Last 
time I was there it was still Conrail, so what the NS schedule is, not sure.
Hope this helps
Steve

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Chany, Christopher" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:39:25 -0400

I don't know about back in New Haven days but I do know if you travel up 95
You can definitely see moving bridges with no catenary on them.  One that
comes to mind is the one in Cos Cob CT. I assume that the Acela train sets
have pantograph limiters on them.

Chris Chany

 Gregg Mahlkov  wrote:
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge


Andy and list:

I had heard (I worked for PC at the time), that several adjustments had to
be made to the New Haven's catenary to permit operation of GG1's. It may
well have been at moveable bridges, although I cannot see a "no catenary"
option for moveable spans, as one could always end up with a locomotive
stopped on a span unable to move. New Haven's main was too busy to permit
that option, in my opinion.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
To: 
Cc: "PRR FAX" 
Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge


> I have often heard a story that there was a serious difference between
> the PRR and NH catenary design over movable bridges.  The PRR hung
> catenary over them while the NH did not.  The NH put a limit stop on the
> pantographs to keep them from going straight up when going over the
> bridges with no wire.  The G's had no such stop and the first time the
> PC tried to take a G East (North?) of NY, the pan shot straight up on
> the first movable bridge (Hutchinson River?) and pulled down the wire on
> the far side!   As a result of this discovery, several G's were equipped
> with stops for operation to NH.  It must have been an embarrassing
> discovery for the PC.  But then they had lots of embarrassing
> discoveries to get used to.
>
> Can anyone confirm (or refute) this PRR urban legend?
>
> Gregg Mahlkov wrote:
> >
> > Jon:
> >
> > I think the GG1's in New Haven were during the Penn Central era.
Remember,
> > the PC took over the New Haven in 1969 and Amtrak was not formed until
1971,
> > so for two years PC operated electrified passenfger service between New
> > Haven and Washington. The G's were not immediately repainted PC and the
only
> > modern electrics the NH had were the EP-5 "Jets", which went into Grand
> > Central, along with the FL-9's, so GG1's were needed on through PC
trains.
> >
> > Gregg Mahlkov
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: 
> > To: 
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 10:40 PM
> > Subject: [PRR] PRR "Gs" on Hellgate Bridge
> >
> > > Dear List,
> > >  I know it wasn't often that they did this. . . but I know from time
to
> > time
> > > PRR GG1s would run over Hellgate Bridge as run through power. I know
> > > this had to happen, as I have color pictures of Pennsy Gs in New
Haven.
> > > My question is. Does anyone have a source for pictures (in color, if
> > possible)
> > > of PRR Gs on Hellgate ? I can't seem to locate any.
> > >
> > > Thank You,
> > > Jon S.
> > >
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > > "listserv@dsop.com".
> > >
> > >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> > "listserv@dsop.com".
>
> --
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Andy Miller
> asmiller@mitre.org
>
> ==================================================
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Lane" 
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:44:36 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] M.O.W X-29

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone has any PRR drawings showing the conversion
(windows or portholes etc.) of the original X-29 to Maintenance of Way
service. There was one with 2 portholes per side in M.O.W. Yellow in
Allentown Pa. for many years until they scrapped it. As always, I never ask
for copies or assistance for free. I have many interesting PRR items to
offer in trade.

IMHO, requests and exchanges like this make the email lists all worthwhile.

Thanks to all who have responded to my request for PRSL AS-16 information.
It was most appreciated.

Bill


"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Bill Lane" 
Subject: [PRR] M.O.W X-29
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:44:36 -0400

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone has any PRR drawings showing the conversion
(windows or portholes etc.) of the original X-29 to Maintenance of Way
service. There was one with 2 portholes per side in M.O.W. Yellow in
Allentown Pa. for many years until they scrapped it. As always, I never ask
for copies or assistance for free. I have many interesting PRR items to
offer in trade.

IMHO, requests and exchanges like this make the email lists all worthwhile.

Thanks to all who have responded to my request for PRSL AS-16 information.
It was most appreciated.

Bill


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Al Buchan" 
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:26:36 -0400
Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] M.O.W X-29

Bill, et al.,

The class X29 MW cars with porthole windows that I am familiar with were
primarily conversions to flangers and I think there were only a few of
those. One or more may have also been converted to scale test service. I
don't have any drawings but the Harrisburg archives might.

Al




"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to =
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Al Buchan" 
Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] M.O.W X-29
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 21:26:36 -0400

Bill, et al.,

The class X29 MW cars with porthole windows that I am familiar with were
primarily conversions to flangers and I think there were only a few of
those. One or more may have also been converted to scale test service. I
don't have any drawings but the Harrisburg archives might.

Al




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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:42:48 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] M.O.W X-29

>Bill, et al.,
>
>The class X29 MW cars with porthole windows that I am familiar with were
>primarily conversions to flangers and I think there were only a few of
>those. One or more may have also been converted to scale test service. I
>don't have any drawings but the Harrisburg archives might.
>
>Al

Bill,

I have a photo of one of the later, taken in the 90's in Philly.  It will
be  awhile before I can scan it though, as I'm hitting the road for 2 weeks
this weekend and my kodachrome scanner is at work...

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Huber25@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:51:45 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Great Pennsy Book

Hi, Gang.

I just returned from a weekend trip to the Strasburg RR for the annual 
meeting of the Maryland & Pennsylvania RR Preservation & Historical Society. 
While there I picked up an absolutely fantastic book on the life of Pennsy 
steam engineer O.P. Orr. This is one of the best books I've read and I'm only 
on page 106! It's really interesting as he describes the different sections 
of the railroad and running differences between I-1's, H-6's and L-1's as 
well as others. If you're in to photos this book will be a big disappointment 
to you but if you'd like to know what a Lollypop was like to run on the Bald 
Eagle then this is the book for you. Gotta run and finish the rest of the 
book! It's called "Set Up And Running, The Life Of A Pennsylvania Railroad 
Engineman 1904-1949". It was written by his son John W. Orr.

Take care and enjoy!
Roger

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 07:42:15 -0700
From: Doug Edwards 
Subject: [PRR] Subject: M.O.W X-29

Bill,

If this conversion was done before about 1950, drawings will be in the
micro film collection in the society archives.  I have requested copies of
drawings from the micro film on a periodic basis and always gotten what I
asked for, even some real odd ball stuff.  The archives have a large machine
that copies off the micro film in a fairly large format so that you are not trying to
read a c size drawing on a 8.5 x 11 page.  This service to the members alone
is worth the price of the membership.  The micro film contains at least drawings
for motive power, revenue and non revenue cars prior to about 1950.

Regards,

Doug

PRR-Talk wrote:

> Subject: M.O.W X-29
> From: "Bill Lane" 
> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:44:36 -0400
>
> Hi All,
>
> I was wondering if anyone has any PRR drawings showing the conversion
> (windows or portholes etc.) of the original X-29 to Maintenance of Way
> service. There was one with 2 portholes per side in M.O.W. Yellow in
> Allentown Pa. for many years until they scrapped it. As always, I never ask
> for copies or assistance for free. I have many interesting PRR items to
> offer in trade.
>
> IMHO, requests and exchanges like this make the email lists all worthwhile.
>
> Thanks to all who have responded to my request for PRSL AS-16 information.
> It was most appreciated.
>
> Bill
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>


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------_=_NextPart_000_01C0FA92.592AF7B2--

!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: LeeRainey@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 12:02:31 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Subject: M.O.W X-29

In a message dated 6/23/2001 7:45:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
stueart@myavista.com writes:

<< If this conversion was done before about 1950, drawings will be in the
 micro film collection in the society archives.  I have requested copies of
 drawings from the micro film on a periodic basis and always gotten what I
 asked for, even some real odd ball stuff.  >>

I am a member of the PRRT&HS but do not know how to go about ordering such 
things. Can you give me (us) a few pointers on how to attack the task?

Thanks

Lee Rainey

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Gene Deimling" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Subject: M.O.W X-29
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:23:45 -0700

Lee:
You can send an email to Walt Keely for information on ordering.  Generally,
you need to get a list of drawings that are available.  There was a list
included in the Fall 2000 Keystone as I remember.  You need to have the
specific drawing number since there are multiple drawings per car type.  The
drawing list gives you the pricing information which is based upon the
drawing size.  The orders go to Walt and he runs down to the archives every
so often and runs them for you.  You have to be patient with the process.
To my knowledge, there are only drawings of rolling stock done before 1951
and no locos or structures.
You can reach Walt at--

wkeely7080@aol.com

Gene Deimling
editor, The Proto Journal
visit our website and see what is new in Proto48
http://www.protojournal.com


-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of
LeeRainey@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 9:03 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Subject: M.O.W X-29


In a message dated 6/23/2001 7:45:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
stueart@myavista.com writes:

<< If this conversion was done before about 1950, drawings will be in the
 micro film collection in the society archives.  I have requested copies of
 drawings from the micro film on a periodic basis and always gotten what I
 asked for, even some real odd ball stuff.  >>

I am a member of the PRRT&HS but do not know how to go about ordering such
things. Can you give me (us) a few pointers on how to attack the task?

Thanks

Lee Rainey

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: Michael E Allen 
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:48:44 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] Former Flanger in Quakertown   -  was:  M.O.W X-29

Professor Levin, Brother Buchan, Gentlemen;

I apologize for the duplicate posting but we seem be having this
conversation on both lists.

I do not know box car classes and spotting points well enough to tell off
of the top of my head what class of car I'm looking at unless its
stenciled on the side, and I know better then to always trust that. I
don't have the faintest idea what class of car it was in its former life.
What I do know is that it has been privately owned for at least 15 years
and sat for much of that in the dead line on the quarry spur at New Hope.


It is now sitting in the Reading station at Quakertown. This is the north
limit of the current operation of the Bethlehem Branch [ex-Reading, Septa
owned, claimed by CSX, and now operated between Telford and Quakertown by
a contractor]. The station is on the main street on the west side of the
track. The MOW equipment is parked on the freight house spur parallel to
the main on the west side. There is a parking lot [for a hobby shop!] on
the east side of the track. Good open view and morning sun.

Unless it has been moved in the last two months it is very easy to find. 

The station is on the main street of Quakertown and represents the
eastern anchor of the business district

1. From Route 78 or 22: Take PA 412 south from Bethlehem about 12 miles
and watch for the sign [right turn] 412 passes  to the east of the town

2. From the PA TPK NE Ext: Get off at the Quakertown Exit and follow the
signs east.

MEA 
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:48:44 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Former Flanger in Quakertown   -  was:  M.O.W X-29
From: Michael E Allen 

Professor Levin, Brother Buchan, Gentlemen;

I apologize for the duplicate posting but we seem be having this
conversation on both lists.

I do not know box car classes and spotting points well enough to tell off
of the top of my head what class of car I'm looking at unless its
stenciled on the side, and I know better then to always trust that. I
don't have the faintest idea what class of car it was in its former life.
What I do know is that it has been privately owned for at least 15 years
and sat for much of that in the dead line on the quarry spur at New Hope.


It is now sitting in the Reading station at Quakertown. This is the north
limit of the current operation of the Bethlehem Branch [ex-Reading, Septa
owned, claimed by CSX, and now operated between Telford and Quakertown by
a contractor]. The station is on the main street on the west side of the
track. The MOW equipment is parked on the freight house spur parallel to
the main on the west side. There is a parking lot [for a hobby shop!] on
the east side of the track. Good open view and morning sun.

Unless it has been moved in the last two months it is very easy to find. 

The station is on the main street of Quakertown and represents the
eastern anchor of the business district

1. From Route 78 or 22: Take PA 412 south from Bethlehem about 12 miles
and watch for the sign [right turn] 412 passes  to the east of the town

2. From the PA TPK NE Ext: Get off at the Quakertown Exit and follow the
signs east.

MEA 
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: "Steve Hoxie" 
Subject: [PRR] New Manufacturer?
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:34:36 -0500

Has anyone heard of these guys?

http://www.pacificmountain.ca/products.html

Jim Six was bragging about their BeanO cabooses as being top quality
products.  I noticed on the webpage near the bottom it says PRR N-6b as a
future product.  Wouldn't that be nice!

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:05:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] New Manufacturer?

Steve,

    I mentioned this company several weeks ago. Allan, from that company
advised me of the N6b project. He asked me if I had drawings and other
info for the making of this cabin. I reffered him to Tom V.    
    As for the BeanO Cabosses I can say this.  Be preparred to put some
time into these. It took me roughly 7 hours on the I-12 class. It is a
very well done kit except for 1 problem I encountered. When gluing the
steps into their proper place, the trucks interfer. I had to take a
dremel and whack off the back corner of the steps. It is my opinion
there is no way around this. The truck bolsters are molded into the
frame so you can't move that, and the steps have their place to be glued
to. It just didn't work. One fix could have been shortening the width of
the steps. It was to late for me cause I already had AC'd them in place.
Oh well, live and learn. The end result is a very good looking I-12
Caboose. I believe the customer has 3 more he wants built. Now I know
what to expect, I may have the time cut down to 5 hours or so.
   If anyone has N6b info, be sure to get in touch with them. An N6b
would be a good thing. (Greg Martins words, not mine)(G:-) ).....Gary 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 03:13:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Doug Kisala 
Subject: Re: [PRR] New Manufacturer?

Steve, list,

Like Gary, I am also assembling a Pacific Mountain B&O
I-12 cabin car (caboose in B&O's vernacular).  I have
worked on it a little at a time; my car is nowhere
near complete, yet.  I purchased mine through the B&O
RR Historical Society Company Store (along with a nice
B&O caboose book).

This much I can say: Pacific Mountain puts out a
well-researched and nicely molded product.  The
moldings are clean (they managed the I-12 body in one
piece, believe it or not).  The directions are
thorough and precise; it seems clear to me that they
actually assembled the kit themselves to debug things.

I have added grab irons, done some underbody detailing
and some other body detailing on my car.

When Pacific Mountain decides to do a PRR N6b, I will
cheerfully order one.

Doug


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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:55:15 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners
From: Jerry Britton 

Of the dual-service M-1's (and sub classes), does anyone know how late they
ran in dual-service?

Pennsy Power X, and other sources, show M's on passenger trains between
Harrisburg and Williamsport, but these photos aren't dated.

The F-M C-Liners were also initially used in dual-service. Did they ever
wear anything other than DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) narrow stripe?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:10:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners

Jerry,

     Taking a break from decaling to throw you a possible answer. The
Pennsy found out that the M1 was more valuable in fast freight service
than in passenger service. I am assuming the end of M1 locos in
passenger service was the very late 1930's., or possibly at the
beginning of the war when they needed all the locos they could get their
hands on for freight service. The K4s then assumed their duty, be it
double heading a passenger train if need be.......Back to work....Gary 




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PRR Loco Pics:
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&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:08:22 EDT
From: BPX29@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners

Regarding M1's in passenger service, I was a bit surprised by a related photo the other day. Seems like I was looking through either "PRR- Hudson to Horseshoe" or "PRR_Standard RR of the World" and noticed an M1 leading the Admiral into Altoona in the 1950's. Can't recall the date exactly, but it was much later than I would have thought. There were streamlined cars in the train, probably P85's, wearing post-war colors, well after the demise of FoM colors.
Trains mag also had a two part article on these engines a number of years back, and while I don't have it in front of me, it seems there was some coverage of their assignmnets contained. 
These engines always come to mind as freight haulers when I think of them, but some of them were certainly no stangers to passenger service.
Barry Peltier

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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:18:13 -0400
From: Dan Cupper 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners

Greetings to Jerry and the List


Dave Sweetland's book on the C-Liner (1996, Withers Publishing)
indicates that the FM C-Liner demonstrators 4801-4802 hauled the
Broadway and the General between Chicago and Harrisburg before moving on
to demonstrate on the Long Island Rail Road and the New Haven. Although
the then-PRR-owned LIRR ordered eight C-Liners for passenger service,
the 24 units that the Pennsy acquired for itself were dedicated to
freight service, as they were not equipped with steam generators and had
a 63:15 gearing that gave them a top speed of only 66 mph.

With respect to PRR M1s in passenger service, at least one Clarence
Weaver photograph exists showing an M1 (I think it was 6861) at Sunbury
handling a southbound passenger train, and the engine is fitted with the
postwar headlight and generator arrangement.

Hope this helps.

Dan Cupper
 




Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> Of the dual-service M-1's (and sub classes), does anyone know how late they
> ran in dual-service?
> 
> Pennsy Power X, and other sources, show M's on passenger trains between
> Harrisburg and Williamsport, but these photos aren't dated.
> 
> The F-M C-Liners were also initially used in dual-service. Did they ever
> wear anything other than DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) narrow stripe?
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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>     http://www.railfancentral.com
> 
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From: "Jerry Shickler" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:43:18 -0400

M1 #6845 carrying passenger train #580 derailed on the P&E at Garland on
2/2/47.

---
Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm



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From: "Steve Hoxie" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:07:13 -0500

Jerry--You wrote:
>
> Of the dual-service M-1's (and sub classes), does anyone know how late
they
> ran in dual-service?
>
One of my favorite topics.  Photo evidence shows that M1's served on
passenger trains, at least between Harrisburg and points North, after World
War II and well into the 1950's. All the below listed photos ahve the
engines in the late headlight/generator configuration and all except 6861
have the one piece pilot. (6861 retained its bar pilot even after it got a
big tender and was in dedicated freight service, as seen in a Don Wood photo
published in The Keystone, Summer 1992, dated 5/30/55.  The same photo is
also in Wood's "I Remember Pennsy.")

Keystone, June 1979, p. 4, 6845, 1954
Keystone, September 1979, p. 14. 6845, 1948, 6810, p. 15, 1946
Keystone, June 1981, 6811, p. 22, undated but definitely post WWII
Keystone, Spring 1987, 6861, p. 32 (centerfold!), 4/28/51

Penn Valley's video "The Susquehanna Division" has some footage of at least
one M1 on a passenger train, but I have been unable to read the number.

Since you are modeling 1954, I think you would be safe running an M1 on
passenger in and out of Harrisburg. Not enough evidence to prove you wrong.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL



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From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman)
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 17:02:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: [PRR] Former Flanger in Quakertown   -  was:  M.O.W X-29

 It's still there along with a switcher and some other equipment. I
drove by there yesterday. I thought the station had burned down. 


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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:38:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoffrey Van Dooren 
Subject: [PRR] 

Hi,
I will order some kits that are not available in
Europe, so I can pich them up during my visit next
month. My question: which trucks and decals(which
manufacters) go with:
Laser Horizon:
1938 Pullman Brook series
1948 Pullman Harbor series
1948 Pullman Colonial series
Bethlehem car Works:
M70 RPO

Thx,
Geoffrey 

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Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 18:49:42 EDT
From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners

Jerry,

DAn is absolutely correct the Pennsy's C-Liners were in fact freight onlyy locomotives and perhap Jerry you meant "ERIE Builts", which some were for the most part a dual service locomotive.  They were delivered in DGLE and a single 3" Buff stripe. In my most humble opinion an beautiful sight with a string of mail cars...  

Greg Martin   

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:26:21 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners

In a message dated 6/26/01 5:54:29 PM Central Daylight Time, 
TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:

<< In my most humble opinion an beautiful sight with a string of mail cars... 
 
  >>

Especially if they are correctly painted in DGLP and not the poor excuse P2K 
offers!

Bob (oh, great, another project to add to the list)  Zoeller

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From: GPandelios@aol.com
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:11:56 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re: Cars that never were

Folks,

Like Dick Ross, I've also made an oops or two.  I, too, purchased Weaver's 
2-bay PRR ribbed hopper (a 12 car set).  It even claimed to be an H21a!   Oh 
well.

Lionel put out a PRR coil car that consists of a gondola with 2 covers.  I 
doubt that it's prototypical (this is Lionel we're talking about).  Does 
anybody know anything about any PRR coil cars?

Thanks,

George



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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 06:19:39 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Dual Service M-1's, C-Liners
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/26/01 6:49 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com at (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote:

> DAn is absolutely correct the Pennsy's C-Liners were in fact freight onlyy
> locomotives and perhap Jerry you meant "ERIE Builts", which some were for the
> most part a dual service locomotive.  They were delivered in DGLE and a single
> 3" Buff stripe. In my most humble opinion an beautiful sight with a string of
> mail cars...  
> 
Actually, I did mean the C-Liners!

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I don't have my own copy (yet) but just
borrowed and viewed for the first time Herron Rail Services "Pennsylvania
Glory Volume 2". In it they point out C-Liners in initial dual service!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:17:04 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Keystone

The keystone finally showed up in Chicago yesterday.  Amazing that it can get to England two weeks earlier.

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Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:31:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/27/01 12:17 PM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote:

> The keystone finally showed up in Chicago yesterday.  Amazing that it can get
> to England two weeks earlier.
> 
Perhaps they mail it eastward. Pittsburgh tomorrow? 
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:51:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] PRSL Lettering

Lists,

    Did the PRSL Steam Locos assigned to Freight service, ie The H Class
2-8-0's and B Class 0-6-0's, wear Gold Lettering or were they like the
Pennsy and wear Buff Lettering. I believe Champ Decals has only the Gold
Lettering available. Thanks in advance....Gary 




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRSL Lettering
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:22:55 -0400

Gary:

According to Russ Clover's dry transfer catalog, the Gold lettering was used
prior to 1942 and gold and buff were used after 1942. Photos in Don Ball's
book would confirm this. Russ sells dry transfers for PRSL steam, diesels,
gas-electrics, electrics, and passenger cars in N, HO and O.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Mittner" 
To: ; 
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 2:51 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRSL Lettering


> Lists,
>
>     Did the PRSL Steam Locos assigned to Freight service, ie The H Class
> 2-8-0's and B Class 0-6-0's, wear Gold Lettering or were they like the
> Pennsy and wear Buff Lettering. I believe Champ Decals has only the Gold
> Lettering available. Thanks in advance....Gary
>
>
>
>
> Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
> Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>
>
> PRR Loco Pics:
> http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com
>
> &
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
> and......
>
> PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html
>
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:57:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Vertical Lights at Stell-York Haven Line.

Hello List,

    Does anyone know what those vertical lights are used for at STELL
interlocking. They are not PRR position signals. They are on the
eastbound side of the tracks on a catenary pole before they cross
Conodquint Creek. These "lights" are near the area of the West Fairview
crossing( maybe less than a mile east of DAY Tower)
   These 'lights" can be seen on the Green Frog Tape "The Pennsyvania
Railroad" near the end of the tape. The tape shows the lights flashing
and they cut off. My first thought was dragging equipment detector. But
those are on the signal mast itself.
    Does anyone have the correct answer?
Dave


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Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:32:16 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Brass Buy/Sell Database
From: Jerry Britton 

On my BrassTrains site (www.brasstrains.net) I have just created an online
database which allows brass collectors to list items wanted or for sale.

                THERE IS NO FEE FOR THE USE OF THIS DATABASE!!!

Unlike auctions, which run for a very short time, this allows sellers to
list items for longer periods. However, to keep entries from "growing mold",
records will self-delete after 90 days.

It also allows folks to list items they are looking for...a "reverse
auction" so to speak.

This is the first iteration of this database, so I welcome your feedback and
suggestions (and bug reports).

Please, take a look, and pass on the URL to others who may be interested.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
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    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
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From: "Greg Stone" 
Subject: [PRR] Long Island tender
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:33:26 -0400

I recently went to Steamtown. I noticed a tender behind the rotary snow plow
had LONG ISLAND on its' side. Does anyone know its' class and what type of
engine it rode behind. Is it a pennsy style tender?

Greg Stone
PRRT&HS member
special interest Renovo Yards
Always looking for photos and info on the Renovo Yards



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From: RickTipton@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:33:24 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Lines West MofW, Cabin lists

Revisiting an old thread,

In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:02:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
SUVCWORR@aol.com writes:

<< Rick:
 
 One exception to your list is boom car M.W. 348339 in an undated photo in 
 Wayner's "The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" pg 60 top.  It is 
 accompanied by GR class #286568.  This would seem to indicate that some PRR 
 MOW cars were numbered with M.W. prefix.  Could this have been a Lines West 
 practice?
  >>
Rich,
I'll admit that I don't see a picture of an MW prefix on a Pennsy car every 
day; in fact, I believe this is the only one in my index.  Techno note - I 
read this car as car intials "PRR" and car number "MW348339".  In other 
words, the car initials are NOT "PRRMW".  I'm assuming the analogy is to NYC 
cars like "NYC" "X-42430", where the X- prefix also denotes company service 
cars.

However, I believe neither of those PRR cars is from Lines West.  At least 
after a certain date (before 1920?), Lines West cars would have 
"consolidation" numbers above 500,000.  And if a car was in nonrevenue 
service, I'd expect it to be renumbered above 900,000.

Please note that this is a massive exercise in supposition - OTOH, I'm very 
confident that Lines West cabins and work equipment were in fact numbered in 
the high 900,000's.  Dead nuts this is true of Lines West's N6a and N6b cabin 
cars rebuilt starting in 1914 -- it also appears to be true of the NE and NEa 
cars before rebuilding.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 
(HO)
                             Operating the Panhandle Route
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West 

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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:51:02 +0000
From: prrbill 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone centerfold painting

andrew harmantas wrote:
> 
> The artist painted an arriving Pennsy train, backing into the station.  Note
> the escaping steam from the front end drifting away from the front of the
> locomotive.  The artist did not write the caption.


Thank you for the clarification, Andrew.  Missed you this month at the
RR Museum.  

FYI, Andrew is the artist of the centerspread in question.  From talking
to him at previous Pennsy Days at Strasburg, I know he does meticulous
research.  His work is much appreciated.

Bill Morlitz

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From: Bob Colquitt 
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:02:08 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] Help needed to correct Princeton Junction painting


Phil Ritter, former VP of the Philly Chapter, asked me to help the owner
of the original of the PRR Princeton Junction painting. Some may have
seen the prints shown at the latest Pennsy Days at the RR Museum of PA
in Strasburg.

Some of the comments I heard at the "Days" were the signals were wrong
along with the indications.

Bill Pierson, the painting owner and not Internet savvy, called me to
ask for help. The painting is based on page 86 of the Pennsy Electric
Pictorial by Zak.

If you can help, Bill lives between Harrisburg and York. I figured the
advisor(s) will need to look at the original and make recommendations.

Please contact me if you can help.
Thanks,
-=- Bob Colquitt

"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:11:57 -0400
From: Bob Colquitt 
Subject: [PRR] Aid needed to correct Princeton Junction painting


Phil Ritter, former VP of the Philly Chapter, asked me to help the owner
of the original of the PRR Princeton Junction painting. Some may have
seen the prints shown at the latest Pennsy Days at the RR Museum of PA
in Strasburg.

Some of the comments I heard at the "Days" were the signals were wrong
along with the indications.

Bill Pierson, the painting owner and not Internet savvy, called me to
ask for help. The painting is based on page 86 of the Pennsy Electric
Pictorial by Zak.

If you can help, Bill lives between Harrisburg and York. I figured the
advisor(s) will need to look at the original and make recommendations.

Please contact me if you can help.
Thanks,
-=- Bob Colquitt

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From: "" 
Subject: [PRR] Fwd: Bachmann PRR Observation
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 09:33:39 -0500



>Listers:
>
>I am finishing a Bachmann Observation car (B74Z business car) in pre-war
>paint. I have two quesitons:
>
>1. What is the color is the observation deck railing?
>
>2. Were these cars commonly used on regular revenue service? Were they on
>"Blue Ribbon Fleet" trains? If so, did they have drumheads? I'm thinking of
>getting a Tomar Industry drumhead for The Golden Arrow or something like
>that.
>
>TIA
>
>Ted Andrews
>Carmel, Indiana
>

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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 10:51:00 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Bachmann PRR Observation

As the Packard commercial said, "Ask a man who own's one!

The portions of the railing that your hand came into contact with is
nickle plated. The filigree sections are black.


Bennett Levin

ted_andrews@msn.com wrote:
> 
> >Listers:
> >
> >I am finishing a Bachmann Observation car (B74Z business car) in pre-war
> >paint. I have two quesitons:
> >
> >1. What is the color is the observation deck railing?
> >
> >2. Were these cars commonly used on regular revenue service? Were they on
> >"Blue Ribbon Fleet" trains? If so, did they have drumheads? I'm thinking of
> >getting a Tomar Industry drumhead for The Golden Arrow or something like
> >that.
> >
> >TIA
> >
> >Ted Andrews
> >Carmel, Indiana
> >
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
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From: "Al Buchan" 
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:03:24 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] Help needed to correct Princeton Junction painting

Bob,

Its unfortunate that with a majority of the RR art the depiction of signals
is usually incorrect. I would like to assist however; I am not familiar with
the work on which the painting was based.

Al



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From: "Al Buchan" 
Subject: [PRR] RE: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] Help needed to correct Princeton
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:03:24 -0400

Bob,

Its unfortunate that with a majority of the RR art the depiction of signals
is usually incorrect. I would like to assist however; I am not familiar with
the work on which the painting was based.

Al



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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:27:33 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fwd: Bachmann PRR Observation

Ted,

The business cars were never user in revenue service, i.e. space on
board was never sold to a paying customer.  However, they were
frequently tacked on the rear of a scheduled train (even blue ribbon) to
get them where they were going.   I don't know if the drumhead would be
transfered to the rear of the business car.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
ted_andrews@msn.com wrote:
> 
> >Listers:
> >
> >I am finishing a Bachmann Observation car (B74Z business car) in pre-war
> >paint. I have two quesitons:
> >
> >1. What is the color is the observation deck railing?
> >
> >2. Were these cars commonly used on regular revenue service? Were they on
> >"Blue Ribbon Fleet" trains? If so, did they have drumheads? I'm thinking of
> >getting a Tomar Industry drumhead for The Golden Arrow or something like
> >that.
> >
> >TIA
> >
> >Ted Andrews
> >Carmel, Indiana


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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:50:22 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Keystone centerfold painting

The Summer issue centerfold of E's leaving St. Louis has me baffled.  St. Louis Union Station is on the north side of the tracks and the wye portion that the train is on would be heading west unless it is backing in.  However the caption say's it is leaving.  Then I thought maybe it is reversed but the numbers and the Pennsylvania would be backwards if it were.  What am I missing?

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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:01:50 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone centerfold painting
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/29/01 11:50 AM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote:

> The Summer issue centerfold of E's leaving St. Louis has me baffled.  St.
> Louis Union Station is on the north side of the tracks and the wye portion
> that the train is on would be heading west unless it is backing in.  However
> the caption say's it is leaving.  Then I thought maybe it is reversed but the
> numbers and the Pennsylvania would be backwards if it were.  What am I
> missing?
> 
I took note of that as well.

I believe it to be a mistake on the artist's part. There are numerous photos
of St. Louis showing PRR coming off of the other leg of the wye when
departing. 

Either

a) the artist used as a model a photo that was reversed and did not catch
it;

b) the artist used as a model a photo of a train that had passed the station
upon arrival and was backing in. In such a case the photo would be correct
and just the caption would be wrong.

I suspect "b", but an "arriving train that is backing in" seems somewhat
less dramatic than an otherwise "arriving" or "departing" train.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For brass collectors...
    http://www.brasstrains.net
Free serving of railroad web sites...
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: "andrew harmantas" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone centerfold painting
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:33:41 -0400

The artist painted an arriving Pennsy train, backing into the station.  Note 
the escaping steam from the front end drifting away from the front of the 
locomotive.  The artist did not write the caption.
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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:45:49 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone centerfold painting
From: Jerry Britton 

On 6/29/01 12:33 PM, andrew harmantas (frisco482@hotmail.com) wrote:

> The artist painted an arriving Pennsy train, backing into the station.  Note
> the escaping steam from the front end drifting away from the front of the
> locomotive.  The artist did not write the caption.

Thanks for clarifying that the error is in the caption.

I don't have The Keystone at hand. I did not recall if it was one of yours
or not. I really enjoy your work and appreciate that it is regularly
featured in The Keystone.

One of my favorites was a mid-1950's era painting you did of The Horseshoe
Curve featuring several trains, including a TrucTrain consist. Keep up the
good work!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...
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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:11:39 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone centerfold painting

In a message dated 6/29/01 11:57:56 AM Central Daylight Time, prrbill@Op.Net 
writes:

<< FYI, Andrew is the artist of the centerspread in question.  From talking
 to him at previous Pennsy Days at Strasburg, I know he does meticulous
 research.  His work is much appreciated. >>

And I assume it is not offtopic to compliment him on his work---it really 
struck me as a beautifully accurate rendering of the EP22 in every way.

Bob Zoeller

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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:53:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone centerfold painting

In a message dated 6/29/01 12:08:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< The Summer issue centerfold of E's leaving St. Louis has me baffle >>

Since this is a painting not here is also the posssibility of "Artistic 
License"
for those of us familiar with Alliance, Ohio - there was a lot of it involved 
in the portrait of an "A" and a "B" under the Alliance viaduct - Starting 
with two "wrong" engine numbers and wrapping up with a "Merchandise Service" 
box car in a scene dated 1936....
Dick

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From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" 
Subject: [PRR] [AD] 40' Branchline Blueprint Reefers
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:39:45 -0400

The first twelve road names of the long awaited 40' URTX style wood reefers
from the Branchline Blueprint Series have been received.  They are now
listed (with illustrations that do NOT do the cars justice) at our web site.
Two road numbers are available for each of the 12 road names.  Go to our web
site at http://www.onerrave.com and click on BRANCHLINE TRAINS.  The cars
are in the 1200-1300 series.  Please note that special pricing (shown in
red) is available only when using our online Shopping Cart to place an
order.

These cars were in use from the 1920's until outlawed from interchange
service in January of 1937 - perfect for the steam era.

Dennis
mailto:dennis@onerrave.com

D & S Hobbies
http://www.onerrave.com
34 Main Street
South Bound Brook, NJ 08880

(732) 271-0800     Voice
(732) 271-0805     Fax




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Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:00:16 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Obs Quaker City
From: John Sheets 

Does anyone know the car number and truck style/no. axles for the PRR
business car Quaker City ?

Thanks
John


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From: "Roger P. Hensley" 
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 09:03:44 +0000
Subject: Re: [PRR] Artwork ?

> From:          JONS6755@aol.com
> Date:          Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:18:42 EDT
> Subject:       [PRR] Artwork ?
> To:            prr-talk@dsop.com, PRR-Subscribe@egroups.com

> Hello Listers,
> Got a question that I felt someone on the list could help 
> me with. Does anyone know of a source, be it on line,
> publications, or whatever, for good railroad clip art 


	http://ribbonrail.com/art/

	There are a number of other sites now, but this one
	has been around for a long time.


Roger

Roger Hensley
rhensley@anderson.cioe.com
== http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ ==
== Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) ==

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:18:42 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Artwork ?

Hello Listers,
Got a question that I felt someone on the list could help 
me with. Does anyone know of a source, be it on line,
publications, or whatever, for good railroad clip art ( this 
would be clip art, line art, camera ready art. . . whatever
you want to call it) ?  What I really need is good locomotive
"shots", side views or 3/4 shots.  Any help would be greatly
appreciated. Not just PRR, but all roads. (there  where/are a
few others!  :-) )
Thanks,
Jon Sbordone
PRRT&HS #3079
FRM of PA

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:09:59 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Artwork ?

In a message dated 6/30/01 7:03:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
rhensley@anderson.cioe.com writes:

<< > Hello Listers,
 > Got a question that I felt someone on the list could help 
 > me with. Does anyone know of a source, be it on line,
 > publications, or whatever, for good railroad clip art 
 
 
    http://ribbonrail.com/art/
 
    There are a number of other sites now, but this one
    has been around for a long time.
 
 
 Roger >>

Thank You Roger,  I guess I should have said that I am aware
of the Ribbonrail Site. Its nice, but most of the locos are very 
generic.  Anyone know of any other sources (cyber or other 
wise) ?

Thanks,
Jon

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From: ThreeButchers@cs.com
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 10:10:13 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re:  Subject: Obs Quaker City

In a message dated 6/30/01 1:12:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:

<< 
 Subject: Obs Quaker City
 From: "John Sheets" 
 Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:00:16 -0500
 
 Does anyone know the car number and truck style/no. axles for the PRR
 business car Quaker City ?
 
 Thanks
 John
>>>

John/List;
I am responding from the digest, so if this is repeat information, forgive me.

Car # 7507 "Quaker City" was Business Car (not Observation) class Z74dR built 
1928. During its life it held the names (Not certain of order) 
"Philadelphia", "Pennsylvania", "Baltimore", and lastly named..."Quaker 
City". The trucks in pictures I have of "Quaker City" are not the original 
3D-P1, but PRR class 2E-P5, 2E-P6, or 2E-P6A...(a GSC design)

"Quaker City" photos I have indicate other modifications from its original 
design.
1) Clerestory roof rebuilt to round-roof
2) "Streamlined" battery boxes (commonly found on prewar P70 rebuilds)

According to PPIII, "Quaker City" was assigned to the Chairman and Board of 
Directors.

Regards;
Brian Butcher



 
  >>

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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:06:44 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:  Subject: Obs Quaker City

The car currently resides in ILL when it is owned by an auto dealer and
is used to sell RR China. A recent MR that had an article about a layout
combining the Hill and Harriman Systems carried information about the
car and its owner.

Bennett

ThreeButchers@cs.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/30/01 1:12:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:
> 
> <<
>  Subject: Obs Quaker City
>  From: "John Sheets" 
>  Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:00:16 -0500
> 
>  Does anyone know the car number and truck style/no. axles for the PRR
>  business car Quaker City ?
> 
>  Thanks
>  John
> >>>
> 
> John/List;
> I am responding from the digest, so if this is repeat information, forgive me.
> 
> Car # 7507 "Quaker City" was Business Car (not Observation) class Z74dR built
> 1928. During its life it held the names (Not certain of order)
> "Philadelphia", "Pennsylvania", "Baltimore", and lastly named..."Quaker
> City". The trucks in pictures I have of "Quaker City" are not the original
> 3D-P1, but PRR class 2E-P5, 2E-P6, or 2E-P6A...(a GSC design)
> 
> "Quaker City" photos I have indicate other modifications from its original
> design.
> 1) Clerestory roof rebuilt to round-roof
> 2) "Streamlined" battery boxes (commonly found on prewar P70 rebuilds)
> 
> According to PPIII, "Quaker City" was assigned to the Chairman and Board of
> Directors.
> 
> Regards;
> Brian Butcher
> 
> 
>   >>
> 
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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:41:50 -0700
From: "Dave Mittner" 
Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Action Scenes

Hello List,
        I'm in need of some inspiration.  As an artist who enjoys painting
scenes of the late great PRR, I am always on the look-out for unique and
powerful action photography to use as reference for my art projects.  If
anyone has or can refer me to a photo or photos they think would make a
great painting by all means contact me. These can be in the way of personal
photos as well as published.  Any Sodus Point trestle shots for example?  To
anyone who submits something that I would choose to do a painting of, I
would be more than pleased to offer as a thank you, a signed print upon
completion of the work. If you have scanning capabilities, you can simply
e-mail your idea directly to me.  If not, contact me, and I can make
arrangements to have you send the material to me by mail.  All selected
material would obviously be returned to the owner upon completion of the
piece.
        Whilst we speak of railroad art, who does the list members feel is
their favorite artist.  Grif?.....Howard?.....Gil?.....???? and what is it
about your favorite artist you like so much?      They are all heroes to me.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
D. B. Mittner   PRRT&HS #6699

Dave's Gallery of Railroad Art.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~mittner/davesart.html



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From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:57:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [PRR] Riding in a K4

Lists,

     Someone let me barrow a book today for a quick read. They highly
recommended for me to read a particular chapter, 9 pages. Glad I took
him up on his offer. The book is titled, "Riding the Limiteds'
Locomotives"  It is a first hand story of the author who had the rare
opportunity to ride famous limiteds of the 1930's. The chapter I was
interested in was the authors trip on the Broadway Limited from New York
to Chicago. A 20 hour trip at that time.  The purpose of this cab ride
was to observe a new journal grease that was being fought over in the
courts. He was to inspect  the heat of the K4's Journals (in this case
all 5 K4's that were used to haul the Broadway over the entire system,
except for the short useage of an L5 electric out of NYC) for evidence
in the trial. A neat little read of the capability of the K4. 
     The author also rode the NYC 20th Century. I havn't got to that
chapter yet. Again, the book is titled "RIDING THE LLIMITED's
LOCOMOTIVES.  by Colonel Howard G Hill, Superior Publishing.1972

........Gary

PS: The Broadway that day was 9 minutes early.......  




Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art
Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>>

PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......

PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html


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Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 23:54:03 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Long Island tender
From: aurora7@juno.com

The Long Island Rotary  is equipped with a Camelback Tender from the
years when the LIRR operated the species in some abundance.  

Richard Glueck
Peace of the Planet Farm
Winterport, Maine

"I don't believe in an afterlife, but I am taking a change of underwear
just in case." -Woody Allen

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