From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] RE Life Like Loco's Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 09:02:25 +1000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C013F3.58BF8120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Listers, I can still get the Life Like 0-8-0's here in Australia if anyone os = interested. Landed in the USA insured for US$150.00. Most roads are available still. Also I should be able to do a similar thing on the FA-1's, SD60's and = the new Gondolas. The SD60's are superb. My email address is as follows "prr" followed by "@" then "unite.com.au" Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C013F3.58BF8120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listers,
 
I can still get the Life Like 0-8-0's = here in=20 Australia if anyone os interested. Landed in the USA insured for=20 US$150.00.
 
Most roads are available = still.
 
Also I should be able to do a similar = thing on the=20 FA-1's, SD60's and the new Gondolas.
 
The SD60's are superb.
 
My email address is as follows "prr" = followed by=20 "@" then "unite.com.au"
 
Graeme Nitz
PRRT&HS Member = #1313
An=20 Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak"
With a touch of=20 Reading.
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C013F3.58BF8120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 09:35:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Interlocking Diagrams -- Middle Division From: Jerry Britton Looking for online interlocking diagrams for VIEW, WORKS, ALTO, and SLOPE, in the Middle Division. Anyone know of any URL's? (I already checked Mark Bej's site. No luck.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 11:18:06 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blure Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings to List; Thought you would like to know that the Borough of > Tyrone, Pennsylvania on the former PRR MAIN LINE Middle Division (at Jct of > ex-PRR Bald Eagle Branch) has a new Railroad (Transportation Center) Station > under construction. Although it does not resemble the prior 2 + 1/2 story > brick ediface (which should have been preserved and fell to the wrecker's > ball immediately after the Penn Central merger), the new passenger station > is, nonetheless, being constructed in the best example of PRR architecture. > > The new station is rectangular, with a striking hip roof design in Vermont > Green with verticle seams. The windows have definite PRR architectural > details and are painted in three colors: Hunter green , trimmed in tan, and > outlined in maroon (we'll say Tuscan Red). The exterior walls appear similar > to wainscoating from floor to roof in light cream. The west end of the > building has an extended platform canopy with an expansion on the extreme > west end. > > The east end of the building has a circular drive/turn around for vehicles. > The entire area is referred to locally at Railroad Park and has two cabooses > (actually, a Conrail Caboose and a PRR Cabin) across the street from the > station, as is a nicely designed oval gazebo with seasonal flowers planted > around the perimeter. > > Tyrone, although somewhat late, is restoring the former glory of their > passenger station area, replacing at long last, the bus stop open air shelter > that bears absolutely no resemblance to a railroad passenger facility. > > While the station boarding area is far from complete, the two single tracks > passing the site are a far cry from the 5 that dominated the area pre-1968. > It's still a great place to watch trains. Tyrone will, no doubt, continue to > be a flag stop, but, at long last, there is a suitable structure to garner > community pride and, perhaps, increase boardings at this location. That is, > if NS would let Amtrak operate on the ADVERTISED SCHEDULE. > Dave Seidel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 07:55:01 -0700 Bennett Levin writes: > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. And from what I remember reading, even back then many passenger trains would not have turned a profit were it not for the mail and freight ... if Amtrak needs to do this for its trains to break even, then I say let them. Would you rather the train lost money and eventually was abandoned? As for being the fault of the government -- well, I see Amtrak trying to function as a business rather than a money-losing sucker of our hard-earned taxes. They're just dealing with the commercial realities of the situation, which are that it is hard to make money running passenger trains in modern America. Since the rules they operate under allow them to attach express freight to passenger trains, and such freight turns a nice profit, why should they walk away? Would you rather Amtrak lose money and be in a much more perilous state? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 12:06:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION From: Jerry Britton On 9/1/00 10:55 AM, Matthew J. Brown (morven@byz.org) wrote: > Bennett Levin writes: >> Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling >> freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK >> trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue >> Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not >> hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect >> examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express > freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. > A big difference, however, is how the railroad views the action of dropping/adding cars. The PRR had switchers staged and ready to go the moment a train arrived. I've recently watched the Three Rivers at Harrisburg and it takes them 30-45 minutes to drop the last five cars off the train. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Interlocking Diagrams -- Middle Division Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 11:39:34 -0500 Rails Northeast, April 1978 has interlocking diagrams of ALTO, SLOPE, & WORKS. I can scan & email if you like. Andy -----Original Message----- Looking for online interlocking diagrams for VIEW, WORKS, ALTO, and SLOPE, in the Middle Division. Anyone know of any URL's? (I already checked Mark Bej's site. No luck.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 12:49:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Imports (OLD Query) In a message dated 3/2/2000 5:53:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, pgrace@aspects.net writes: > While the John Bull is the best known import by the Pennsy there was a later > import.. In the late 1890's a Webb compound was imported. It was a copy by > Bayer Peacock of a "Dreadnaught" class locomotive of the London & North > Western Railway. This arrangement instead of the LNWR works at Crewe because > British laws forbade railway works building locomotives for export. It was a > 2-4-0 tender locomotive, but as a result of the design it was effectively a 2- > 2-2-0 locomotive. It was possible to get the wheels spinning in opposite > directions! I believe it was numbered 1520. ( The information above comes > from a book called Railways at the Turn of the Century by O.S. Nock ). Does > any one else know anything about it. > What Patrick Grace made this query, I knew I had seen picture of the locomotive sometime in the prior year or so, but couldn't remember where: just putting away some accumulations from my pile system, and see p. 35 of the Spring 1999 issue of (Volume XXII, Number 3): caption reads as follows: "Engine 1520 (...) was a Webb compound built in Great Britain by Beyer, Peacock in 1888. Modified early by the PRR, it featured a single under-the-boiler cylinder driving the first driving axle and two exterior cylinders connected to the second. It never received a class letter and had a brief life. In Great Britain, too, these engines soon earned a dubious reputation for, among other things, needed a push to get a train into motion if the engine was stopped in a bad position of the valve gear. Unclassified (1 2-2-2 Webb compound engine) 2-14 and 1 30x24cyls 75"DR Beyer-Peacock, 1888 Karl E. Schlachter collection" I do not recall any other responses to this query; if there were, please forgive the repeat of the information. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 13:04:21 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Coils of steel hardly qualify as "express". Amtrak was not created to be a freight railroad and the Stab's politically motivated redefinition of Express is not only impacting the on time performance of AMTRAK's trains, but also freight railroad revenues. In all of AMTRAK's PR on their heightened earnings nowhere do they report their expenses. Recently one of the director's of AMTRAK's reform board resigned with a stinging indictment of there operation and the financial hocus-pocus and slight of hand financial tricks. Not a word of it in TRAINS or any other railfan press! Read what Mr. Vranich has to say. His letter of resignation is posted at http:/home.att.net/~JVranich/index/.html. My point is don't beat on NS for problems that AMTRAK has created for itself! I think if an objective evaluation of the full cost to provide express service was undertaken for the express business we would find out that it too looses money. I believe that not only do they loose money on their core a/k/a passenger business, but loose it on the so-called express business. What they claim is that they make it up in volume!!!!!! Where are the expenses allocated. All that AMTRAK releases to the press is their gross revenues. I would like AMTRAK to be honest in their accounting, fair in their business dealings, and a creditable railroad entity. If they cannot make it in their core business don't milk someone else's business at less than your costs in order to generate a gross revenue stream. Amtrak losses money and will continue to loose money. It was, is, and will continue to be a political boondoggle where those we elect can stash some patronage, appear to be progressive, and buy a few votes! If it is going to feed at the public trough, than the taxpayer's are entitled to a full measure of value for their participation. The taxpayers should not have to carry the burden unless there is some great purpose. I say privatize the viable portions of its charter and abandon the rest! The government did it with great success in the creation and privatization of the late lamented CONRAIL, why not AMTRAK? Read Vranich and reconsider you opinion. AMTRAK should not exist for you and I to photograph, to benefit a supply industry and its consultants, or to provide a nest of jobs. This is not to say that there are not a significant number of good, decent, and hard working employees at Amtrak. But they would survive in a real world organization. I guess the point really is why put the blame on NS!!!!!! "Matthew J. Brown" wrote: > > Bennett Levin writes: > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue > > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express > freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. > > And from what I remember reading, even back then many passenger trains would > not have turned a profit were it not for the mail and freight ... if Amtrak > needs to do this for its trains to break even, then I say let them. Would > you rather the train lost money and eventually was abandoned? > > As for being the fault of the government -- well, I see Amtrak trying to > function as a business rather than a money-losing sucker of our hard-earned > taxes. They're just dealing with the commercial realities of the situation, > which are that it is hard to make money running passenger trains in modern > America. Since the rules they operate under allow them to attach express > freight to passenger trains, and such freight turns a nice profit, why > should they walk away? Would you rather Amtrak lose money and be in a much > more perilous state? > > -Matt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 13:09:30 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION FYI: Here is the full text of Vranich's letter to Sen Lott: "Derailed," a book about Amtrak, passenger trains, and public policy by Joseph Vranich St. Martin’s Press, New York SEE EXTENSIVE PRAISE FOR BOOK BELOW News Flash: Vranich Calls for Removal of Amtrak Board, Resigns from Amtrak Reform Council Because Amtrak Blocks ARC Work, Calls for Congressional Probe of Amtrak Practices The full text of Mr. Vranich’s resignation letter is printed below. Content about the book remains, but follows the letter. July 10, 2000 To: The Honorable Trent Lott, Majority Leader, U.S. Senate Dear Senator Lott: With regard to my service as a member of the Amtrak Reform Council (ARC), to which you appointed me, I have concluded with great regret that the ARC is unable to effectively fulfill the oversight role that Congress intended for it, and that there is no realistic prospect that it will be able to do so in the foreseeable future. Thus, I am resigning my position effective immediately. By separating from the ARC I can speak more freely. Most urgently, I urge Congress to take appropriate measures to dismiss the present members of the Amtrak "Reform Board of Directors." In this letter I will outline the board's negligence that warrants such action. I will also make the case that the Treasury Secretary should replace the Transportation Secretary as the federal government's ex-officio member on the Amtrak board. I also want to focus public attention on Amtrak's failure to bring modern, cost-effective rail passenger service to the United States. ARC'S MISSION The ARC was created by the Amtrak Reform and Accountability Act of 1997 (ARAA) to independently evaluate Amtrak's performance, make recommendations to Amtrak for cost containment and financial reforms, and recommend to Congress changes in the law that are believed to be necessary or appropriate. If the ARC finds that Amtrak isn't meeting its mandated goal of operating self-sufficiency by the end of fiscal year 2002 (i.e., after September 30, 2002), the ARC must submit within 90 days to Congress a plan for a restructured and rationalized inter-city rail passenger system. In that same period, Amtrak must prepare a plan for its complete liquidation. YOUR DIRECTION IN APPOINTING ME When you appointed me on February 24, 1998, you said, "The ARC will ensure that Amtrak spends the taxpayers' money wisely. The Council's first loyalty will be to the American taxpayer - not to the nostalgic sound of passenger trains going down the tracks." I responded in a letter, saying, "I assure you that I will take very seriously the trust that you have placed in me, and I'll work conscientiously to evaluate Amtrak's feasibility into the next millennium." For the following reasons, I am unable to fulfill that commitment. - AMTRAK's LACK OF COOPERATION WITH ARC: Amtrak has resisted the ARC, having failed to provide needed information. This has interfered with the ARC's ability to carry out its legal obligations to Congress. - "BACK DOOR" SUBSIDIES INCREASING: Taxpayer funding for Amtrak is increasing. It is being hidden in numerous non-Amtrak accounts, making it more difficult to determine just how much in public funds Amtrak actually is receiving. - AMTRAK DISGUISES LOSSES: Amtrak's operating losses are no longer fully transparent, that is, the financial performance and condition of certain Amtrak business units no longer are clearly reported and readily understandable. - SETTING THE STAGE FOR ANOTHER AMTRAK BAILOUT - THE BOND BILL: If Congress passes the so-called High Speed Rail Investment Act, it will set the stage for another Amtrak fiasco that will cost taxpayers billions of dollars. - COSTLY ACELA DELAYS AND QUESTIONABLE FUNDING: Amtrak is not forthcoming about the fiscal consequences of the serious delays that have occurred within its Acela high-speed Northeast Corridor program. It's time that Congress gave higher regard to warnings by the General Accounting Office (GAO) and Transportation Department Inspector General (IG) about Acela-related revenue shortfalls. Moreover, Congress should begin to look into previously undisclosed loans from Canada for the Acela. - ADDITIONAL POOR, COSTLY SERVICES ARE BEING PLANNED: Amtrak is not using a significant portion of capital subsidies for the kinds of high-priority, high-return investments that will help its bottom line. Amtrak is adding trains that are slower than those of many decades ago, including pork-barrel trains to the hometowns of Amtrak board members. I will now elaborate on each of these issues. AMTRAK's LACK OF COOPERATION WITH ARC Amtrak refuses to disclose information required by the ARC. Governor Tommy Thompson, Amtrak's board chairperson, assured me at a September 24, 1998, meeting that Amtrak would provide the ARC with what it needs to meet statutory obligations. Because Amtrak was claiming "success" with its freight program - but always citing only revenues, not costs - I asked in that meeting for cost information to determine the extent of freight’s contribution to Amtrak's bottom line. As of today, one year and 9 months later, the questions remain unanswered. Freight income/expenses is a major issue. Amtrak claims that carrying freight can make it a profitable operation, but has provided no substantiation of this to the ARC. Indeed, the ARC has urged a transparent accounting of Amtrak's freight revenues and expenses, but Amtrak has ignored its request. Yet, Amtrak spokespersons assert to the news media that the railroad's express program is making a "positive contribution" to the bottom line. If that's true, why cannot Amtrak respond to the ARC by supplying the requested balance sheet? Amtrak's action is indefensible, because the ARC has a statutory obligation to examine which Amtrak programs are succeeding or failing. For example, the new Kentucky Cardinal exists primarily to carry United Parcel Service (UPS) package freight from Louisville to Chicago. It's possible that this train is losing money, which would mean that public funds intended for passenger travel are subsidizing UPS. When rail advocates (and I was among them) worked to create Amtrak in 1970, none of us had any intention of creating a government subsidy for a private freight hauler. Also, Amtrak has denied the ARC access to information regarding labor productivity, failed to identify the revenue impact of delays in starting Acela high-speed service, and has not volunteered information about loans from Canada to help finance the Acela. While all are serious matters, failure to respond to labor productivity questions permits Congress to remain misinformed. Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, chair of the Surface Transportation subcommittee, said on November 7, 1997, that Amtrak assured her that the pay raises negotiated that year would be paid for by more efficient operations. It appears that no data can be found to substantiate the efficiency claims. "BACK DOOR" SUBSIDIES INCREASING No one really knows the full public cost of running Amtrak. No entity has yet quantified all of Amtrak's public costs for general scrutiny. Excluded from Amtrak's accounting system, annual reports, and congressional testimony are the costs of 10 public programs that help finance Amtrak or artificially lower Amtrak’s costs by shifting expenses to other agencies, as follows: - Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) funding benefits Amtrak through grants for train stations, historic building restorations, grade crossing improvements, high-speed rail studies, and technology development. - Federal Transit Administration (FTA) Grants - two examples are a grant of $18.7 million to Pennsylvania to purchase coaches for Amtrak and $3.5 million to Vermont to start a train to Rutland. FTA grants also help pay for improvements at Amtrak stations. - Other federal funds - some states like California rely on Congestion Mitigation & Air Quality funds to support Amtrak. - De facto federally guaranteed loans - in 1996, Amtrak borrowed $1 billion from an agency of the Canadian government, a sum that is still outstanding. Because it is unlikely that Congress will precipitate an international incident by allowing this loan to go into default, it will ultimately be repaid by U.S. taxpayers. - Special funding by states for cars, locomotives, track work, station construction - California and New York alone have each spent about $1 billion on Amtrak. - Federal job-training funds have benefitted Amtrak in several locations, such as a $500,000 grant to Amtrak to retain a reservations office in Philadelphia. - Local Government's Direct Subsidies: In California, counties purchased and are upgrading the Los Angeles-San Diego rail line, while Amtrak expects more local communities to build and maintain Amtrak stations across the country. - Local Bond Issues/Local Incentives: Amtrak benefits from bond issues and incentive packages to keep jobs in cities like Chicago. - Local Tax Exemptions: The ARAA exempted Amtrak from property taxes levied in Beech Grove, Indiana, where its major maintenance shop is located, and the community is losing about $5 million in tax revenue over a five-year period. - Internet-Style Tax Exemption - A controversy has developed about Internet merchants not paying certain state or local taxes, but it's little known that Amtrak enjoys the same benefit. According to the Congressional Budget Office, Amtrak passengers are exempted from "most state and local taxes, fees, and charges." Most of these funds and tax forgiveness measures are not reflected in Amtrak's books and are separated from the federal government's $24.1 billion in expenditures for Amtrak since its 1971 creation. AMTRAK DISGUISES LOSSES Amtrak repeatedly offers a glowing picture of its own' finances, yet for the first two quarters of this fiscal year, its operating loss grew from $248.8 million to $265.9 million, a $17.1 million increase. The deficit is growing at the same time that Amtrak is boasting of major ridership and revenue successes. Congress is failing to put Amtrak's financial affairs to a simple litmus test - do Amtrak's numbers fairly represent its condition to taxpayers? Unfortunately, the answer is "no," and Amtrak's financial hemorrhaging continues. Notably, the DOT Inspector General and the GAO have found that Amtrak is unlikely to meet a legal requirement of zero operating subsidies by the end of fiscal year 2002. If a "Ripley's Believe it or Not" existed for accountants, Amtrak would be featured. Consider the bogus methods now under way to make Amtrak’s books look better: - Amtrak now inflates income by counting many public subsidies as "revenue," something it hasn't done through most of its history. The amount last year from the states alone totaled $100 million. - Amtrak has lowered operating losses by shifting almost a half a billion dollars in maintenance costs to its capital account, according a GAO study. - Amtrak benefits from a unique taxpayer-sponsored bonanza. Although Amtrak has never paid a penny in income taxes, Congress ordered the IRS to give Amtrak a $2.2 billion "tax refund." Amtrak is using the funds in two ways - partly to repay a portion of its $1.6 billion in debt to the private capital markets and partly by investing the funds in high-yield, interest-bearing accounts. Thus, the "tax refund" - money Amtrak did not "earn" in the true business sense - is reducing Amtrak debt costs and increasing interest income, a balance-sheet sweetener that masks the extent of its poor financial condition. The GAO reported last month that Amtrak "has had, and continues to have, difficulty in controlling its costs" and that the railroad's' net losses have remained high - about $900 million in fiscal 1999. And the DOT IG reported last year an estimate that, over time, Amtrak will incur $695 million more in cash losses than Amtrak estimates. An airline using Amtrak's accounting methodologies would be slapped hard by the Securities and Exchange Commission, shareholders would be outraged, and the Chairman would be looking for a new job. SETTING THE STAGE FOR ANOTHER AMTRAK BAILOUT - THE BOND BILL No credible evidence exists that Amtrak will achieve its financial goals. Amtrak will need additional billions in subsidies to keep operating, as evidenced by the June GAO report, which states that Amtrak continues to have difficulty in controlling costs, and that interest costs are increasing as debt obligations grow. The new high-speed Acela service, which is touted to generate $125 million in annual profits, is again delayed on account of the Acela’s design deficiencies. Amtrak has launched a new effort to obtain $10 billion more in subsidies by arguing in favor of the High Speed Rail Investment Act (S. 1900 and H.R. 3700). The bill should be stopped dead in its tracks because it is deceptive in its promise to Americans and contains objectionable features. I say this because (1) the money will not necessarily go to build high-speed rail systems, (2) the costs will be higher than Amtrak claims, (3) taxpayers will be left liable for another Amtrak bailout, and (4) the bill establishes a conflict-of interest regarding the Secretary of Transportation. Taking these issues in order: (1) Amtrak's "re-definition" of what constitutes a “high-speed” train is a ploy to plow more funding into its conventional trains. As a long-standing advocate of high-speed trains, I believe this legislation ought to be called the "anti-high speed train bill." I say that because if enacted the result will be Amtrak "high-speed" trains for the Midwest, the South, and West Coast that in most cases will offer slower travel times than travelers found in the 1950s and earlier. Amtrak will also spend funds on routes that are so long (e.g., Washington, D.C. to Macon, Georgia) that there is no way – not now, not ever that even the fastest high-speed trains could compete with air travel. The bill is a step backward because it institutionalizes Amtrak's second-rate planning and inhibits development of the kind of fast corridor train service America needs. (2) The bill permits a future transfer of costs from Amtrak's books to obscure ledgers buried in the Treasury Department, thus freeing Amtrak to again issue inappropriate claims of financial "success." The bill authorizes Amtrak to sell $10 billion in bonds, with the government giving $2.3 billion in tax credits to bondholders in lieu of interest payments. But tax credits are indirect tax expenditures with a cost to the Treasury - the equivalent of spending. Another troublesome aspect is that the analysis of the bill's costs end with the year 2010, yet 20-year bonds are permissible. It's likely that as late as 2010 Amtrak could issue bonds that will expire in 2030. It's conservative to estimate that the tax-credit cost to the Treasury will be at least double the amount claimed by the bill's proponents. Thus, the bill creates additional subsidies of unknown proportions to Amtrak that will not be reflected in Amtrak's books. (3) It's been asserted that the proposal is sound because funding will be managed by an independent trustee and repayment assured by a guaranteed investment contract. But these measures are deceptive because they apply only to the 20 percent state share, not the 80 percent federal share. Thus, the preponderance of the funds would remain at risk. Does anyone really believe that Amtrak, which hasn't made a profit on a single train when all costs are considered, will pay off these bonds? The inescapable conclusion is that the bill sets the stage for another bailout of Amtrak. (4) The bill gives the Secretary of Transportation authority to prescribe regulations about how certain bond-related transactions are reported to the public even though the Secretary also sits on the Amtrak Board of Directors - an obvious conflict of interest. This is alarming because the current Secretary has demonstrated a gross lack of concern for fiscal integrity in order to help Amtrak (as will be explained later in the section entitled, "Permanently Remove Transportation Secretary from Board"). Amtrak will be unable to pay off bond principal and interest, with the result that Americans will be set up for still another multi-billion dollar Amtrak bailout in future years. Examine the record. Bailouts have happened before with Amtrak's government-guaranteed loans. In submissions to Congress and in annual reports, Amtrak fails to list funds received through guaranteed loans. Amtrak never repaid $880 million in loans received between 1971 and 1975, and that obligation, plus more than a quarter of a billion dollars in interest, were paid by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) on Amtrak's behalf. For evidence of this continuing Amtrak-inspired taxpayer obligation, we need to go back all the way to the 1983 Amtrak annual report to find this disclosure: "On September 30, 1983, Amtrak had borrowed under notes payable to the Federal Financing Bank up to its maximum Federal guaranteed loan authority of $880,000,000. On October 5, 1983, this obligation, plus $239,635,000 in accrued interest, was paid on Amtrak's behalf by the Federal Railroad Administration, and a new note in the amount of $1,119,635,000 was executed as of that date between Amtrak and the U.S. Government. The note matures on November 1, 2082, and will be renewed for successive 99-year terms. Interest is payable only in the event of prepayment or acceleration of the principal." It is commonly known that Congress since 1971 has appropriated more than $23 billion to Amtrak. But if this $1.1 billion is added (which is never done because it wasn't an "appropriation"), the federal government's expenditures and current obligations for Amtrak total at least $24.1 billion. Add operating and capital subsidies from states and it's possible to add at least another $1 billion for a total of at least $25 billion in public funding. Senator Lott, when is "enough" ever "enough" for Amtrak? With a record like that, Amtrak cannot justify passage of the so-called High Speed Rail Investment Act. - COSTLY ACELA DELAYS AND QUESTIONABLE FUNDING Amtrak has estimated that revenue will improve by about $125 million in fiscal years 2000 and 2001, due primarily to the introduction of the Acela high-speed trains in the Northeast. But the Acela program is seriously troubled, and determining the extent of the revenue shortfall is difficult. Amtrak tells the public that it will "make up" revenue deficiencies, but has been unable to convince the DOT IG or the GAO that such a feat is possible. Moreover, despite requests, Amtrak has failed to provide the ARC with updated revenue forecasts for the Acela. Questions now arise as to the degree to which Amtrak has disclosed Acela costs to these three federal oversight bodies. It now appears that Amtrak may have been unduly induced by an agency of the Canadian government to select Acela equipment manufactured by the Canadian-based Bombardier Corporation in preference to more proven technologies such as the X2000, a train which Amtrak had tested with great success in the early 1990s. According to an Ottawa Citizen story on March 18, 2000, "The federal Export Development Corp. (EDC) secretly loaned $1-billion to the deficit-plagued U.S. railroad agency Amtrak while the Chretien government sharply cut passenger rail funding in Canada. The money allowed the U.S. government-owned Amtrak to side-step a congressional cap on capital grants . . . The loan package has been a closely guarded secret. As of the end of 1998, the $1-billion was still owing. Officials from Bombardier and Amtrak declined to disclose details about the deal. Details of the EDC-Amtrak loans are not disclosed in EDC annual reports or financial statements . . ..” The secrecy only induces the sense that the Canadian government and Amtrak have something to hide. I urge that a complete Congressional investigation be undertaken to examine this transaction that potentially has handed U.S. taxpayers a $1 billion liability to the Canadian government - a liability that would still be secret were it not for an enterprising Canadian newspaper. For the record, to my knowledge, the ARC was never informed of a loan from the Canadian government, the uses to which it was put, principal amount owed, interest rate or other terms, repayment schedule, or its effect on Amtrak's financial condition. Nor is the ARC aware of what other secret loans Amtrak may have obtained from other foreign nations. Although I'm a 30-year proponent of high-speed trains, and I've testified before Congress many times for federal funding for the Acela, I remain unconvinced by Amtrak's explanations for the Acela’s many delays. When The Washington Post exposed Acela’s design flaws last year, Amtrak announced a "six-month delay" in service startup. For the record, as long ago as 1993, Amtrak promised that it would have the trains running by 1997. Said Amtrak on November 3, 1993 (news release number ATK-93-57): "Amtrak plans to award a contract by the middle of 1994 with the first trains being delivered two years later. The new trainsets will replace Amtrak's existing Metroliner fleet used on the Northeast Corridor. With completion of the New York-Boston improvement program in 1997, Amtrak plans to operate 16 high-speed Metroliner [since re-named Acela] service round-trips each business day between Boston, New York and Washington, with trip time between Boston and New York reduced to less than three hours." (Note: the latest Boston-New York travel time estimate is three hours and 15 minutes.) Hence, the record conclusively shows that Acela is three years behind schedule, and that its performance goals have been compromised. Amtrak has been developing the Acela for seven years, an absurdity compared with the four years other nations take to build new high-speed trains and start running them successfully. Amtrak should have simply purchased an Americanized version of off-the-shelf technology, like the Swedish-Swiss X2000, which would have been built in this country, and Amtrak could have had spectacular high-speed trains up and running several years ago. MORE POOR, COSTLY SERVICES PLANNED Prospects for improved Amtrak service in most of the nation are even gloomier. Amtrak's national expansion plans, supported by a so-called Market Based Network Analysis, is doomed to failure. The plan violates Amtrak's legal requirement to run modern rail passenger service. Amtrak will add embarrassingly slow trains that won't serve vital markets. Amtrak is simply stuffing more pork-barrel trains through as many Congressional districts as possible to the detriment of areas that really need better train service. For evidence, simply compare Amtrak timetables with train schedules from decades ago. For example, the Amtrak's new Kentucky Cardinal is inferior to the equivalent service provided by the Pennsylvania Railroad even 70 years ago. Amtrak's 12-hour Chicago-Jeffersonville, Ind., (near Louisville) schedule is three hours longer than it took our great-grandparents to ride a 1926 "milk run" on the same route, which was pulled by a steam locomotive and served nearly every village along the way. This is why I have called this Amtrak train - one of the slowest in the world - a "Conestoga Wagon With Lights." This train is driven by Amtrak's desire to carry UPS parcel freight, and the passenger accommodations are but a fig leaf to provide Amtrak with legal cover behind which it expands freight operations. Expect more such nonsense. Amtrak is financing highly questionable new trains in Governor Thompson's home state. On April 15, Amtrak began a new passenger train between Chicago and Janesville, Wisconsin, the Lake Country Limited, on a 2 hour, 50 minute schedule – an hour slower than in the early 1950s. On many days the train runs nearly empty. Next, Amtrak plans to add a train between Chicago and Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, again on a schedule slower than in the early 1950s. Amtrak also is looking for ways to add trains to Meridian, Mississippi, home to ARC Chairman Gilbert Carmichael and Amtrak Board member John Robert Smith. In Amtrak's expansion plan, trains on most new routes will be slow. Amtrak's assertion that millions of new travelers will climb aboard such trains is bogus. It is even probable that trains such as the Kentucky Cardinal, Lake Country Limited and the proposed Fond du Lac and Meridian services are illegal because they violate Amtrak's statutory mandate to provide modern rail passenger service, 49 USC Sec. 24101 (a)(1), (b). CONGRESS MUST OUST AMTRAK'S "REFORM BOARD OF DIRECTORS" Amtrak's Reform Board of Directors must be held accountable for their actions. On an urgent basis, I believe Congress should amend the Amtrak law to require the removal of every current Amtrak board member and require their replacements to be individuals who have succeeded in turning around troubled businesses. I urge Congress to not give Amtrak a penny more until a new board is seated. If we wait until their terms expire in 2003, Amtrak will be in deeper fiscal trouble. Current board members are: - Tommy G. Thompson, Chairman - Governor of Wisconsin - Michael S. Dukakis, Vice Chairman - former Governor of Massachusetts - Linwood Holton - former Governor of Virginia - Rodney Slater U.S. Secretary of Transportation - John Robert Smith - Mayor of Meridian, Mississippi - Sylvia de Leon - Amy Rosen - George D. Warrington, Amtrak President & CEO A previous attempt to place new individuals on the Amtrak board was made in the ARAA, which created a "Reform Board of Directors." But the Clinton Administration blatantly ignored the provision by reappointing many members of the old board. On February 11, 1998, Senator John McCain objected, saying, "Congress did not call for the formulation of a new Board so that existing members could be reappointed. Congress called for a new Board with a fresh approach in order to attain Amtrak's operating and financial goals." Events have proven Senator McCain to be right. It's time for Congress to replace the Amtrak board with people who have bona-fide business turn-around credentials and the interest of the taxpayers at heart. PERMANENTLY REMOVE TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY FROM BOARD Federal law for many years required Amtrak to issue preferred stock to the federal government in exchange for federal operating and capital grants subsidies. The Secretary of Transportation, on behalf of the federal government, holds all preferred shares in Amtrak. This is the historical reason for the Transportation Secretary serving as an ex-officio member of the Amtrak Board of Directors. Congress should place the preferred shares at the Treasury Department and assign the ex-officio seat to the Secretary of the Treasury. Presumably, this representative of the public trust will be better equipped to halt Amtrak's inappropriate financial maneuvering and less inclined to permit intolerable actions on Amtrak's behalf. This issue has come to a head because DOT Secretary Slater has again demonstrated a gross lack of concern for fiscal integrity in order to help Amtrak. The most recent example involves DOT interference with a legitimate contract negotiated in Boston. There, after a decade of dissatisfaction with Amtrak's high costs for maintaining its equipment, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (MBTA) conducted a legitimate competitive bidding process and attempted to turn over the equipment maintenance contract to a winning private operator named Bay State Transit Service. The new company offered to provide the same service as Amtrak for $175 million over five years - $116 million less than Amtrak's bid. The efficiency benefits could help commuters if MBTA were to use part of the $116 million to add trains on busy lines. Or, the funds could have been returned to the taxpayers. But the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) compelled MBTA to accept the absurd Amtrak contract by freezing $70 million in federal funds for local transit construction. Secretary Slater oversees the FTA and is duty-bound to spend transit funds in a prudent manner to help commuters. In fact, the FTA action hurt Boston commuters. Mr. Slater also serves on the Amtrak board of directors, and his acquiescence to FTA’s action only preserved an overpriced Amtrak arrangement and perpetuated an MBTA-financed subsidy for Amtrak. This is an example of a Cabinet member ignoring a conflict of interest and outrageously fostering inefficiency in railroad passenger services, both commuter and inter-city. CONGRESSIONAL ACTION NEEDED Luca Pacioli, an Italian mathematician who lived in the 1400s, reportedly said, "If you cannot be a good accountant, you will grope your way forward like a blind man and may meet great losses." Amtrak is "meeting great losses" and is showing no signs of changing its ways. In fact, one conclusion that ARC reached in its January report was that Amtrak is spending capital funds in ways "that may not have any beneficial effect on Amtrak's financial performance." If alarm bells from the GAO, DOT Inspector General, and ARC aren't enough to cause serious concerns, then consider the review conducted in the midst of a threatened Amtrak bankruptcy. In June 1997, the Working Group on Inter-City Rail, created by the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, concluded in its report: "Amtrak is awash in red ink, buffeted by conflicting missions and ballooning debt. . . . Amtrak has missed its financial targets . . . . Amtrak's capital and operating funding should be directed toward routes with the market potential, which are primarily the higher density inter-city corridors . . . . Amtrak is requiring large subsidies from taxpayers and those subsidies are not directed to activities of maximum benefit." Senator Lott, little has changed since that report. For these reasons, I believe Congress should take the following actions (listed in the order in which the issues were raised in this letter): NEEDED DIRECTIVES - Determine from the ARC what inquiries Amtrak has ignored, and require Amtrak to supply timely, forthright, accurate responses. In particular, demand that Amtrak provide, within 30 days, a balance sheet regarding its freight program, a document sufficiently clear as to shed light on the program's financial performance. - Require the GAO to prepare and issue a study on Amtrak's labor productivity to help set a misleading record straight in the House and Senate. AMEND THE AMTRAK LAW - Require Amtrak annual reports to the public and submissions to Congress to clearly identify subsidies, the source of all public funds, and interest costs paid by other agencies for Amtrak-incurred debt. The objective should be simply to require publication of sensible reports that forthrightly explain the true extent of Amtrak's revenues, subsidies, costs, and losses. - Replace the existing Amtrak board with executives who have business turn-around expertise, innovative thinking, and a commitment to run modern trains where they are justified by the marketplace. - Seat the Treasury Secretary as the U.S. Government's ex-officio member of Amtrak's board in place of the Transportation Secretary. INVESTIGATE CANADIAN LOAN - Probe Canada's $1 billion Acela loan to Amtrak for the purposes of determining the uses to which it was put, the reasons for the secrecy, and the potential liability to American taxpayers. STOP NEW BAIL-OUT LEGISLATION - Refuse to pass the so-called High Speed Rail Investment Act until a new direction can be established for the effective planning of high-speed train systems, a direction that includes market-sensitive private businesses. CONCLUSION Senator Lott, passenger traffic growth will not save Amtrak. The ARC, in its January report, issued an assessment that bears repeating: "During a decade when the American economy and most of its transportation system have expanded in an unprecedented manner, Amtrak's ridership has remained virtually unchanged." This is accurate. Amtrak's much-ballyhooed fiscal year 1999 ridership of 21.5 million passengers was lower than the 22.2 million who boarded Amtrak back in 1990. Senator Lott, you are a member of the Commerce Committee, which has general oversight over Amtrak, and a member of the Finance Committee, to which the new Amtrak bail-out legislation has been referred. I urge you to use your influence on those committees to carry out a true reform of Amtrak and to protect taxpayers from future liabilities that will total billions of additional dollars. I thank you for the trust you have shown in appointing me to the ARC. I believe I am making a contribution on my last day of service by bringing to your attention Amtrak's non-responsiveness to the ARC and recent examples of Amtrak mismanagement and financial contrivance. Respectfully yours, Joseph Vranich Copy: Gil Carmichael, Chairman, Amtrak Reform Council The usual content of this Web page begins here: ABOUT THE BOOK Although he worked to create Amtrak and lobbied on behalf of federal funds for Amtrak’s Acela program, Joseph Vranich’s latest book declares Amtrak a failure and calls for a carefully planned liquidation. In Derailed: What Went Wrong and What to Do About America’s Passenger Trains, he proposes that new public and private entities replace Amtrak and run trains on routes that have the greatest chance of success. Free of ties to the rail industry, he reviews Amtrak’s troubled past, examines why Amtrak’s ridership is barely higher than two decades ago, and recounts Amtrak’s promises to improve service – promises that have been broken despite at least $24.5 billion in public subsidies. Derailed reveals how Amtrak trains on most routes are slower than trains were fifty years ago, in the Truman era, and in some cases are slower than today’s Third World trains. Today, Amtrak’s market share is the lowest in history. Vranich argues for passenger trains and praises innovative commuter agencies, high-speed train planners, long-distance “land-cruise” trains and selected foreign railroads. The book reveals that Amtrak-style overnight trains are declining in use throughout the world. Derailed offers insights from countries that are regionalizing, privatizing, devolving, and liquidating their public railroads. In England, a franchise system, even though flawed, has lured Virgin Atlantic Airlines and bus companies into the rail passenger business; Argentina, Japan, and other countries have phased out their Amtrak-style public railroads. PRAISE FOR DERAILED “When one of Amtrak’s true believers begins to question the cause, then maybe it’s time for the rest of us to listen. That’s certainly the case with Joe Vranich... whose newest book Derailed calls for the end of Amtrak as we know it.” – David Field, USA Today. “He argues that Amtrak’s service is of abysmal quality, that its trains are embarrassingly slow [and] often late.... Unfortunately, Vranich’s criticisms are largely correct.” – The Nation. “The book is not simply a damning review of Amtrak’s perceived historical failures.... Much of it is constructive and highly thought-provoking. The reforms proposed by Vranich appear solid and workable, and they are likely to receive serious consideration at a political level.” – International Railway Journal. “Derailed is a surprisingly accessible book on public policy... fine reading.” – Politics and Government Editor's Recommended Book at Amazon.com. “A searing indictment of Amtrak and a powerful call for the kind of ground transportation system America desperately needs today.” – E. S. “Steve” Savas, Director, Baruch College Privatization Research Organization. “Derailed is a refreshing look at how to save and improve passenger trains that make sense for America. Travelers should thank Joe Vranich for showing us how to phase out deficit-ridden national rail systems such as Amtrak and develop innovative high-speed train systems – the kind of systems Americans want to ride.” – Stephen J. McKnight, former Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, High Speed Ground Transportation Association. “If the Pope one morning announced that he had become a Buddhist, it would be big news. Similarly, for a longtime passenger-rail insider to denounce Amtrak as a failure and argue for its liquidation is big news.” – Robert W. Poole, Jr., Reason Magazine. Vranich takes a non-partisan approach to rail passenger issues – Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott praised Derailed and President Clinton praised his first book, Supertrains. ACCLAIM FROM LONG-TIME AMTRAK SUPPORTERS “Amtrak is a cruel disappointment. Derailed shows the way to the kinds of passenger trains which will make sense in the 21st century. Vranich has put the ball in the hands of those who must act – the Congress, the Administration, and the people of our country.” – Anthony Haswell, founder, National Association of Railroad Passengers and “father of Amtrak.” “I and many former Amtrak supporters have come to the realization that Amtrak is no longer worth fighting for.... We need to replace Amtrak with a market- based system of trains that make economic sense and serve as viable contributors to our transportation network. Derailed explains how to do that.” – Ken Bird, founder, Illinois Association of Railroad Passengers, and former board member, National Association of Railroad Passengers. “Especially recommended.” – Arizona Rail Passenger Association. “Is there a future for rail passenger service beyond Amtrak’s interminable history of mediocrity and disappointment? Yes, Vranich reassures us, but only if – along with Amtrak – we dump our own self-serving myths. Finally, a book that is hard-hitting, courageous, and chock full of new ideas.” – Alfred Runte, author, Trains of Discovery: Western Railroads and the National Parks, and former National Association of Railroad Passengers board member. “One can support and promote Amtrak just so long before one begins to look really foolish. Vranich has written a most courageous and timely call to action.” – Thomas R. Pulsifer, co-founder and past-President, Ohio Association of Railroad Passengers. CHAPTERS OF DERAILED Preface One – Riding Amtrak: An Adventure Two – Amtrak’s Structural Problems Three – New Long-Distance and Regional Trains Four – Sidetracking High-Speed Trains Five – Big Future for Commuter Rail Six – Who Will Run Tomorrow’s Trains? Photo Section Seven – America’s Booming Freight Railroads Eight – Washington Spins Its Wheels Nine – Should Amtrak Be Privatized? Ten – An Amtrak Transition and Dissolution Plan Bibliography Index “Vranich now sees Amtrak as a huge blunder. It’s an inescapable conclusion that, somehow, escapes Congress. [He asks], ‘Do we have an obligation to speak up when we’ve created something that doesn’t work? I think we do.’” – Newsweek columnist Robert J. Samuelson. ABOUT THE AUTHOR Joseph Vranich, public relations executive and lobbyist, has been published in the United States, Japan, Germany and Russia. He is uniquely qualified to write about Amtrak, which he argued to create and where he later served as a Public Affairs manager. (Washington Post columnist Bill Gold wrote in 1977 that Vranich was “an Amtrak spokesman who cares. Joe loves trains, and believes in them [saying] ‘We’ve just got to succeed.’”) He also has aviation and aerospace experience, having been a Washington Public Affairs Director for Boeing and Grumman. While President of the High Speed Rail Association in the early 1990s, he testified before Congress in favor of funding Amtrak’s Acela project and improvements on other routes; he also lobbied for legislation to induce private financing into all-new rail systems. The membership granted him the organization’s Distinguished Service Award, the “Sparky.” His first book, Supertrains: Solutions To America’s Transportation Gridlock (St. Martin’s), was praised by Tom Clancy, Ray Bradbury, the New York Times Book Review, Delta Airlines’ Sky Magazine and many others and was quoted during U.S. Senate debate. Vranich has been a speaker throughout the U.S. as well as in Europe and Asia and has appeared on all major U.S. television networks. He completed an executive development program at the University of Virginia, Colgate Darden Graduate School of Business, and earned a Bachelor’s Degree in Liberal Arts from Slippery Rock University in Pennsylvania. ”[Vranich’s] tone is finding more and more resonance among longtime Amtrak riders and supporters who once went along with anything Amtrak did on the premise that any passenger train is better than no train.... The book is well-reasoned and well-written.” – Dan Cupper, author of Crossroads of Commerce, in Trains magazine. The following Internet link is provided in association with Amazon.com, which usually ships the book in 24 hours: Order Derailed from Amazon.com at 30% Savings - Fast Shipping! Also, Derailed may be obtained through local bookstores. Or, to order by phone from St. Martin’s Press Book Distributors – in the U.S. call 1-800-288-2131 – the number for Canada and overseas is New York City 718-984-3398. (For those who need Derailed’s ISBN number, it is 0-312-17182-X.) NEWS MEDIA, PLEASE NOTE Journalists wishing to contact the author should call Gregg Sullivan, publicity department, St. Martin’s Press. His phone number is 212-674-5151, ext. 531. WIDESPREAD MEDIA INTEREST Derailed has received extensive notice. Mr. Vranich’s current views about Amtrak have appeared in many newspapers and magazines, and he has also appeared on national TV and radio to discuss railroad passenger service. Accesses: "Matthew J. Brown" wrote: > > Bennett Levin writes: > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blue > > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > Didn't most passenger trains even fifty years ago carry mail and express > freight? Amtrak hardly thought of the idea first. > > And from what I remember reading, even back then many passenger trains would > not have turned a profit were it not for the mail and freight ... if Amtrak > needs to do this for its trains to break even, then I say let them. Would > you rather the train lost money and eventually was abandoned? > > As for being the fault of the government -- well, I see Amtrak trying to > function as a business rather than a money-losing sucker of our hard-earned > taxes. They're just dealing with the commercial realities of the situation, > which are that it is hard to make money running passenger trains in modern > America. Since the rules they operate under allow them to attach express > freight to passenger trains, and such freight turns a nice profit, why > should they walk away? Would you rather Amtrak lose money and be in a much > more perilous state? > > -Matt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 100 13:40:12 -0400 (EDT) Bennett Levin scribit: > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blure > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. I would argue that the government, having put its foot in the door (1971), decided to remove it fairly suddenly. Had the government done nothing, save possibly stop regulating passenger trains entirely, Amtrak would exist in 3 isolated pockets in the US, if it existed at all. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] AMTRAK Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:21:36 EDT To the list: We are a PRR list and so I will try to make this more relevant to us. Amtrak is not to be blamed in the way the previous account has blamed it. Why is Amtrak late? I know since I am a very frequent rider over the Broadway. Amtrak is late only coming eastbound from Chicago to NYC. Why? Because they do not own the trackage west of Harrisburg. Thus the trains are consistantly 3 hrs. late due to problems in Ohio where at places there is only double track and the passengers play 2nd fiddle to freight. It's the same story for trains all over the country where Amtrak does not own the right-of-way. This is from a frequent Amtrak rider. I trust Amtrak. I like their service. And let's face it folks. As much as I and you all would like it, there is no PRR and NS will never carry like they did. Amtrak is our last hope as a nation in fixing the terrible rail gap that has existed here for half a century. The rest of the world relies on trains. The US, who pioneered the greatest rail network in the world thinks driving and flying is better. If you all have a better idea than Amtrak. Let's hear it, but for now try to support Amtrak and in doing so the public may see how important passenger service really is. Respectfully, Matt Sichel Youngest PRR Affectionado _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak (was Tyrone Station) Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 14:28:00 -0400 As I understand it, Amtrak needs to show a profit by sometime aroune 2003 or risk going under. I suspect just hauling passengers won't cut it. If they're going to haul mail and express, why not do it like UPS - fines that increase by the minute if they're late. And allow them to pass part of the fines on to the host railroad. Jerry's comment about 30 minutes or so to drop last five cars of train is all too typical. Just uncouple them and pull away. Let host RR retrieve them with a switcher. This isn't rocket science! These problems have all been solved by railroads in the past. Quit playing games and run the railroad! As for not blaming NS (or CSX or whomever), seems to me if they can't get their own trains over the railroad, they aren't likely to do much better with Amtrak's. I leave in less than a month for a 3 week Amtrak trip around the country. I'll have some first hand information to report in late October. I am taking the precaution of packing supplies and provisions! More in a month! I will forward this post to Amtrak, as soon as I find the e-mail address. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 14:43:33 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be it. Mark Bej wrote: > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > Don't lay AMTRAK's poor performance on the NS. If AMTK wasn't hauling > > freight and stopping to drop and add cars, they would be on time! AMTRAK > > trains more closely resemble your branchline "peddler" than the "Blure > > Ribbon Fleet". AMTK was to be this nations "Passenger Railroad" not > > hauling everything from tomato soup to coiled steel. This is a perfect > > examble of what happens when government puts its foot in the door. > > I would argue that the government, having put its foot in the door (1971), > decided to remove it fairly suddenly. > > Had the government done nothing, save possibly stop regulating passenger > trains entirely, Amtrak would exist in 3 isolated pockets in the US, if > it existed at all. > > -- > Mark D. Bej > bejm@eeg.ccf.org > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 14:53:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Bennett Levin wrote: > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > it. So the government should stop paying for any roads other than what tolls will pay for, clearly. But no one ever remembers that. Not that any of this has anything to do with this list. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 15:40:40 -0400 To all: There are all sorts of economic and political factors involved in railroad passenger service anywhere on the globe today and they do not belong here, but no one has recovered fully allocated costs anywhere for half a century. I do recall Pennsy's attempt in the mid-1960's to make the Broadway Limited at least meet out of pocket expenses with some hilarious print ads in New York, Philadelphia and Chicago newspapers and regional editions of the news magazines. It increased volume, but sadly not enough. Does anyone out there have copies of the ads? I particularly liked the one comparing a roomette to a submarine. Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION > On Fri, 1 Sep 2000, Bennett Levin wrote: > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > it. > > So the government should stop paying for any roads other than what tolls > will pay for, clearly. But no one ever remembers that. > > Not that any of this has anything to do with this list. > > -D > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 16:12:07 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION I seem to recall the one with a businessman, suitcase in hand, standing at the top of an airplane boarding stairway (remember those?) with the Broadway parked underneath. He's peering across the roof looking for his plane! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > To all: > > There are all sorts of economic and political factors involved in railroad > passenger service anywhere on the globe today and they do not belong here, > but no one has recovered fully allocated costs anywhere for half a century. > I do recall Pennsy's attempt in the mid-1960's to make the Broadway Limited > at least meet out of pocket expenses with some hilarious print ads in New > York, Philadelphia and Chicago newspapers and regional editions of the news > magazines. It increased volume, but sadly not enough. > Does anyone out there have copies of the ads? I particularly liked the one > comparing a roomette to a submarine. > > Gregg Mahlkov > http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION Date: Fri, 1 Sep 100 17:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Bennett Levin scribit: > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > it. I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my previous post was not). There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the federal government. But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took bankruptcies to change the situation.) Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less than its competing modes. Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the advent of railroads was. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:46:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Broadway's twin unit diner I just found the Broadway's twin unit diner! Its touring the country in the "Artrain". Its schedule can be found at: http://www.diamondbullet.com/Artrain/index.html Supposedly its carry some magnificent work of art. But who cares, its the container that's priceless! -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 17:53:13 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION I commend Mark for his well thought out response. I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I sat on the FRA RASC.) In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into non-rail subsidiaries. To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer took the throttle! Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the current custodian of the franchise. Think of what has happened and the cost! Mark Bej wrote: > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > it. > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > previous post was not). > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > federal government. > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > than its competing modes. > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > advent of railroads was. > > -- > Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:39:06 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak (was TYRONE STATION) It is fascinating that a current objective observation of the state of passenger rail service in the U.S. is but a carbon copy of an "autopsy" of the PRR. I thank you gentlemen for your intelligent commentary. Questions: Was the "Metroliner", which received virtually none of the rigorous testing through which a PRR project would have been put, tangled in as much controversy as it's counterpart of today? What role was played by the federal government in the development of the "Metroliner" and are we merely acting out the same high-speed scenario today with a different audience? Bennett Levin wrote: > > I commend Mark for his well thought out response. > > I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the > beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The > ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR > like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll > and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its > recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that > go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by > collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I > sat on the FRA RASC.) > > In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when > the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) > into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) > the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on > investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into > non-rail subsidiaries. > > To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed > a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had > ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a > "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an > experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR > was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced > railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer > took the throttle! > > Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and > was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and > service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would > still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania > Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high > speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan > rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. > Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the > current custodian of the franchise. > > Think of what has happened and the cost! > > > > Mark Bej wrote: > > > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > > it. > > > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > > previous post was not). > > > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > > federal government. > > > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > > than its competing modes. > > > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > > advent of railroads was. > > > > -- > > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak nee: Tyrone Station Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:03:14 -0400 I realize it is political season, but it is not necessary to rehash the demise of the PRR and the condition of Amtrak here. If I recall, one of the minor party presidential candidates in this election even wrote a book called "The Wreck of the Penn Central". I will say just one thing about Amtrak's "express". It is not taking any traffic from the freight railroads. The freight Amtrak is handling is traffic the Class I's wouldn't even know how to solicit, let alone handle. On the Pennsy, the operating department used to tell us traffic types we were drones, they would handle the traffic, or 90 percent of it, without solicitation or marketing. We would remind them that it was that 10 percent that kept the PRR from bankruptcy. The NYC wanted traffic forces to concentrate on the top 20 percent as thay had 80 percent of the freight. PC did as the NYC folks ordered and look what happened! Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] throw away society? Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 19:18:29 -0700 Some time ago we discussed the K4 restoration cost. There were individuals on this list who said the restoration should stop as the engine was beyond its worth for restoration. That at the cost to restore it, we should build a new one, like what is being done in England with steam engines. Despite this attitude and the difficulties faced in raising funds the engine is going to be restored and probably be finished in the near future. Yes, this is becuase of public funding, but so is Steamtown! Where would we be if Conrail had not been formed and publicly funded? Now it seems many are willing to give up on Amtrak. The problems with Amtrak are not simple and certainly the people on this list are not experts on the subject. While I do not know much about the Amtrak problems, I know we in the southern california area could use a good rail transportation system like that used in Europe. Amtrak is the last great hope for mass transit across the country. I hope we do not give up on it. Something as complex as the issues around it will not be solved quickly or cheaply. I still would like to see it be given a chance to become successful. Let's not give up so easily. It is always easier to throw away than to restore! --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 1 Sep 00 22:19:51 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] TYRONE STATION With all this talk about the Tyrone Station, who can remember what the town of Tyrone, was the "Home Of"? It was hard not to see the sign from any P.R.R train in the station. The sign read: "TYRONE HOME OF W---- C----- S----". ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] SRC 40th steam special Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:52:59 -0400 It's not the PRR but it did happen in Pennsylvania - to a railroad that the PRR served, and I completely forgot about it, until this afternoon on my way home from work! The Strasburg Rail Road ran a special to celebrate the 40th anniversary of the return of steam to the SRC. The train featured #31 which did the honors 40 years ago. On board the train were the three remaining original stockholders (Vice Presidents), many of the current stockholders, directors, employees and former employees, even some of the Amish neighbors, along with lots of family. Special banners for the anniversary where attached to number 31's tender. The special left at 7:00PM, Lynn Moedinger, chief mechanical officer and engineer of the special, gave a short dedication speech at Leaman Place, to honor those that had saved the railroad and turned it into the "best railroad in the country". We returned to East Strasburg at about 8:00pm in the dark to cake and punch. What a privilege to be part of the event (my wife, children and I rode in the Cherry Hill - one of the original cars) and my apologies to those on the lists for not getting the word out. Not that it was a great night for photography, but it was a historical moment non-the-less. I should have a picture of #31 and banner tomorrow Cos President and CBW Cos Communications, Inc. Home of the Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road http://www.wsbcos.com http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 23:56:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION In a message dated 09/01/2000 10:26:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tvpete@usa.net writes: << With all this talk about the Tyrone Station, who can remember what the town of Tyrone, was the "Home Of"? It was hard not to see the sign from any P.R.R train in the station. The sign read: "TYRONE HOME OF W---- C----- S----". >> WHITE CLOVERINE SALVE BY WILSON CHEMICAL COMPANY WHICH HAD IT'S HQ OPPOSITE THE ORIGINAL TYRONE STATION ON THE HILLSIDE WHERE I-99 NOW HAS IT'S CORRIDOR. Dave Seidel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv & Sylvie Brice" Subject: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 18:53:53 +1000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0150F.23D49140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G'day Listers, I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most useful. Viv Brice, another SPF from down under PRRT&HS member 6781 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0150F.23D49140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
G'day=20 Listers,
I have = a bridge to=20 build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet span and=20 about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be = suitable=20 for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the Pennsy = have a=20 standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. Given my = distance=20 from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most=20 useful.

Viv Brice, another SPF from down=20 under
PRRT&HS member=20 6781

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0150F.23D49140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 04:56:58 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] TYRONE STATION I thought "W-C-S" when related to Tyrone stood for "Wrost Corossive Smell" for the smell that was emitted by the West Virginia Paper Company on the east side of town. I remember my first trip through Tyrone enroute to Altoona from State College to see the layouts at the Webster Rec Center and being greeted by the sulphur aroma from the mill. Now, many years later, Tyrone has clear air and is a great town to watch the action on the Middle Div. With the restoration of the K4 hopefully it will become the starting point for some real running on the Bald Eagle. The "Y" is being restored in Lock Haven so a trip there is now a possibility. The station could then have some real significance! There used to be a great restraurant in Tyrone called the Forge. BL DWSNRHS@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 09/01/2000 10:26:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tvpete@usa.net writes: > > << With all this talk about the Tyrone Station, who can remember what the > town of > Tyrone, was the "Home Of"? It was hard not to see the sign from > any P.R.R train in the station. The sign read: > "TYRONE HOME OF W---- C----- S----". > >> > WHITE CLOVERINE SALVE BY WILSON CHEMICAL COMPANY WHICH HAD IT'S HQ OPPOSITE > THE ORIGINAL TYRONE STATION ON THE HILLSIDE WHERE I-99 NOW HAS IT'S CORRIDOR. > Dave Seidel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 05:20:05 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] throw away society? "One man's banquet is another man's poison" At least with the K4 there will be a lasting tangible result. Those who arranged the portion of the costs that were covered by public funding should be congratulated, commended, and re-elected for life! I know of no better way for the government to spend my hard earned tax money! Frankly, the restoration of the K4 was one of the reasons my family recently bought Conrail 4020, nee PRR 5809! I seem to recall that the US Treasury was the beneficiary of the sale of stock that created a publicly held company from the USRA created entity called CONRAIL. Steamtown will be successful and an asset to the Wyoming Valley because of a commitment to excellence. The Railroad Museum of the State of Pennsylvania grew from the State of Pennsylvania's creative thinking in taking the locomotive collection from Penn Central in lieu of taxes owed the state by the bankrupt carrier. The State RR museum has the highest per capita attendance rate of any of the sites administered by the state's Historic and Museum Commission. It is a key player in the economic engine called tourism. The fact that the PRR collection remains in PA and with the exception of a few pieces (P-5 & I-1) has not been scattered is something of which everyone on this list should be proud! Those of you on the left coast can be equally proud of what your tax dollars created in Sacramento! Sic Transit Gloria! (Whatever that means) BL Greg Stone wrote: > > Some time ago we discussed the K4 restoration cost. There were individuals > on this list who said the restoration should stop as the engine was beyond > its worth for restoration. That at the cost to restore it, we should build a > new one, like what is being done in England with steam engines. Despite this > attitude and the difficulties faced in raising funds the engine is going to > be restored and probably be finished in the near future. Yes, this is > becuase of public funding, but so is Steamtown! > Where would we be if Conrail had not been formed and publicly funded? > Now it seems many are willing to give up on Amtrak. > The problems with Amtrak are not simple and certainly the people on this > list are not experts on the subject. While I do not know much about the > Amtrak problems, I know we in the southern california area could use a good > rail transportation system like that used in Europe. Amtrak is the last > great hope for mass transit across the country. I hope we do not give up on > it. Something as complex as the issues around it will not be solved quickly > or cheaply. I still would like to see it be given a chance to become > successful. Let's not give up so easily. It is always easier to throw away > than to restore! > --Greg > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 06:09:29 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak (was TYRONE STATION) The cars were a development funded by the PRR, GE, Westinghouse, and Budd. The cars were purchased by the PRr with the exception of the last 10 which were the beneficaries of funding by the State of Pennsylvania. The USDOT paid for some of the track improvement between "County and Millham", (New Brunswick and Trenton) and bought 4 new Silverliner cars which became DOT 1-4. Those cars were instrumented for use on the test track. Richard Nixon used a Metroliner to visit Philadelphia (I think to hear the orchestra) and the METROLINER was thus a "POTUS" train, at least once. There were some technical problems especially with the inrush currents tripping circuit breakers at wayside substations and with windows being sucked out of adjacent trains of MP-54's with wooden sash. Each Metroliner train (numbered in the 100 series) carried an on-board electrical technician to troubleshoot enroute control problems. Before delivery to the PRR the cars were stored on a siding just east of JENKIN interlocking on the RDG and were tested on the West Trenton line from Jenkintown to Neshaminy Falls. This line also had the switching lead into the Budd Red Lion Plant. See my early attachment for Vranich resignation letter for an outline the the Acela high speed trainset problems.The cars are too wide, and too heavy. As we live in a "Blameless Society" without individual responsibllity, it should prove interesting when 60 Minutes or another investigative TV program catches up with the story. Chris Brandt wrote: > > It is fascinating that a current objective observation of the state of > passenger rail service in the U.S. is but a carbon copy of an "autopsy" > of the PRR. I thank you gentlemen for your intelligent commentary. > > Questions: > Was the "Metroliner", which received virtually none of the rigorous > testing through which a PRR project would have been put, tangled in as > much controversy as it's counterpart of today? What role was played by > the federal government in the development of the "Metroliner" and are we > merely acting out the same high-speed scenario today with a different > audience? > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > > I commend Mark for his well thought out response. > > > > I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the > > beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The > > ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR > > like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll > > and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its > > recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that > > go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by > > collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I > > sat on the FRA RASC.) > > > > In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when > > the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) > > into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) > > the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on > > investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into > > non-rail subsidiaries. > > > > To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed > > a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had > > ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a > > "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an > > experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR > > was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced > > railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer > > took the throttle! > > > > Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and > > was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and > > service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would > > still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania > > Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high > > speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan > > rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. > > Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the > > current custodian of the franchise. > > > > Think of what has happened and the cost! > > > > > > > > Mark Bej wrote: > > > > > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > > > it. > > > > > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > > > previous post was not). > > > > > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > > > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > > > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > > > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > > > federal government. > > > > > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > > > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > > > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > > > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > > > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > > > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > > > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > > > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > > > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > > > > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > > > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > > > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > > > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > > > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > > > > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > > > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > > > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > > > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > > > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > > > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > > > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > > > > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > > > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > > > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > > > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > > > than its competing modes. > > > > > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > > > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > > > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > > > advent of railroads was. > > > > > > -- > > > Mark > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > Chris Brandt > cobrandt@eclipse.net > http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 06:09:29 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak (was TYRONE STATION) The cars were a development funded by the PRR, GE, Westinghouse, and Budd. The cars were purchased by the PRr with the exception of the last 10 which were the beneficaries of funding by the State of Pennsylvania. The USDOT paid for some of the track improvement between "County and Millham", (New Brunswick and Trenton) and bought 4 new Silverliner cars which became DOT 1-4. Those cars were instrumented for use on the test track. Richard Nixon used a Metroliner to visit Philadelphia (I think to hear the orchestra) and the METROLINER was thus a "POTUS" train, at least once. There were some technical problems especially with the inrush currents tripping circuit breakers at wayside substations and with windows being sucked out of adjacent trains of MP-54's with wooden sash. Each Metroliner train (numbered in the 100 series) carried an on-board electrical technician to troubleshoot enroute control problems. Before delivery to the PRR the cars were stored on a siding just east of JENKIN interlocking on the RDG and were tested on the West Trenton line from Jenkintown to Neshaminy Falls. This line also had the switching lead into the Budd Red Lion Plant. See my early attachment for Vranich resignation letter for an outline the the Acela high speed trainset problems.The cars are too wide, and too heavy. As we live in a "Blameless Society" without individual responsibllity, it should prove interesting when 60 Minutes or another investigative TV program catches up with the story. Chris Brandt wrote: > > It is fascinating that a current objective observation of the state of > passenger rail service in the U.S. is but a carbon copy of an "autopsy" > of the PRR. I thank you gentlemen for your intelligent commentary. > > Questions: > Was the "Metroliner", which received virtually none of the rigorous > testing through which a PRR project would have been put, tangled in as > much controversy as it's counterpart of today? What role was played by > the federal government in the development of the "Metroliner" and are we > merely acting out the same high-speed scenario today with a different > audience? > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > > I commend Mark for his well thought out response. > > > > I think we all most remember that the main reason for the demise of the > > beloved PRR was the intense meddling and regulation by government. The > > ICC and various PUCs hung the passenger train around the neck of the PRR > > like the proverbial albatross. Local Full Crew Laws bloated a payroll > > and nullified many of the benefits of technology. (Today the FRA in its > > recently adopted Passenger Service Rules has reimposed work rules that > > go back to the 19th century. What labor has failed to obtain by > > collective bargaining they now have been gifted by the FRA. I know as I > > sat on the FRA RASC.) > > > > In the case of the PRR, management also shared the blame because when > > the Board of Directors ceased to promote operating officers (engineers) > > into the position of President and let a lawyer take control (Saunders) > > the end was at hand. The government did not allow a sufficient return on > > investment, so the investment of RR assets were siphoned off into > > non-rail subsidiaries. > > > > To deal with all the intense regulation it was perceived that you needed > > a lawyer. Like the old Broadway Limited Advertisement, the PRR had > > ceased being a railroad and as the advertisement said became a > > "jump-jet". A railroad is a complex organization, and needs an > > experienced almost military organization to function properly. The PRR > > was successful in part because it promoted well trained and experienced > > railroaders into its top management. Look at what happened when a lawyer > > took the throttle! > > > > Had the PRR been able to earn a fair rate of return on its assets and > > was able to embrace technology for profit, as well as safety and > > service, and was not bound by hinious government intrusion, we would > > still be able to see Keystones rounding the "curve", "Pennsylvania > > Station" would have real meaning, Altoona would be a boom town, the high > > speed trainsets between New York and Washington would be painted Tuscan > > rather than some bizarre scheme that looks as if it was designed by A. > > Calder, and the N&W would be an operating division rather than the > > current custodian of the franchise. > > > > Think of what has happened and the cost! > > > > > > > > Mark Bej wrote: > > > > > > Bennett Levin scribit: > > > > > > > > And what is wrong with that. If that is all the traffic will bear, so be > > > > it. > > > > > > I'll generalize so that this post is relevant to PRR (which, admittedly, my > > > previous post was not). > > > > > > There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with Amtrak existing only where > > > there is the traffic to pay for it. Don't get me wrong. I'm far from the > > > bleeding-heart types who want to stick out both arms and have each of their > > > cephalic veins cannulated by large-bore IVs directly hooked into the > > > federal government. > > > > > > But we must be fair. And fairness, honesty, forthrightness, and lack of bias > > > are items that have been lacking in essentially ALL debates about funding > > > for transportation. Whether one discusses (a) one mode versus another; > > > (b) one state versus another (West Virginia being a prominent example of > > > the last decade); (c) (former) coal consumers versus oil consumers; (d) > > > or private versus public versus private-on-public operation ... everywhere > > > there have been subsidies of various sorts that have skewed the economics. > > > The Invisible Hand can only operate well (i.e. to the benefit of all) in an > > > open, wide, uncontrolled, and unsubsidized environment. > > > > > > So yes, indeed. Let's make all roads toll. Let's make private use of the > > > airways (radio, airplanes) toll. Ditto for private use of rivers. Let's > > > measure the economic costs of air, water, and land pollution (not just > > > cleanup costs, but medical costs for treatment of asthma etc.) and arrange > > > the tolls and/or fuel taxes to compensate for these costs. > > > > > > Then there are hidden costs of doing business through regulation. Let's > > > assess whether the regulatory burden upon railroads is commensurate with > > > the actual requirements in terms of public safety, etc., and comparable > > > to that imposed on other modes of transport, given a certain degree of > > > public safety improvement demanded. (And we all know this was not true > > > vis-a-vis the ICC, through the 1960s and 1970s, and that it took > > > bankruptcies to change the situation.) > > > > > > Finally allow Amtrak enough money to hire workers and pay them on a par > > > with the modes with which they compete. I have no clue whether this is > > > or is not the case now, but surely no company can compete if it is > > > forced, through whatever mechanism, to pay its managers and workers less > > > than its competing modes. > > > > > > Then Amtrak (or PRR, or any business) would be given a fair shake. If it > > > still doesn't fly, then let it die. But then it would be a death richly > > > deserved, just like the death of the canals in this country after the > > > advent of railroads was. > > > > > > -- > > > Mark > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > Chris Brandt > cobrandt@eclipse.net > http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] throw away society? Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 17:55:34 +0100 The reason that locomotives are being built in Britain is two fold: 1. To recreate classes lost at the end of steam ( A1 Pacific), or earlier Planet ) 2. To supply motive power for lines where more locomotives are needed David Lloyd George on the Festeniog ) and no suitable machines are available. A third category is for the theme park industry ie Disney. I know that there is discussion in the local railway press about designing a class of new locomotives for the preserved scene, the suggestion being for a suitable 2-6-2 of 2-6-4 tank, reasins being given as either the age of the locomotive stock or the shortage of suitable medium sized locomotives.... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stone" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 3:18 AM Subject: [PRR] throw away society? > Some time ago we discussed the K4 restoration cost. There were individuals > on this list who said the restoration should stop as the engine was beyond > its worth for restoration. That at the cost to restore it, we should build a > new one, like what is being done in England with steam engines. Despite this > attitude and the difficulties faced in raising funds the engine is going to > be restored and probably be finished in the near future. Yes, this is > becuase of public funding, but so is Steamtown! > Where would we be if Conrail had not been formed and publicly funded? > Now it seems many are willing to give up on Amtrak. > The problems with Amtrak are not simple and certainly the people on this > list are not experts on the subject. While I do not know much about the > Amtrak problems, I know we in the southern california area could use a good > rail transportation system like that used in Europe. Amtrak is the last > great hope for mass transit across the country. I hope we do not give up on > it. Something as complex as the issues around it will not be solved quickly > or cheaply. I still would like to see it be given a chance to become > successful. Let's not give up so easily. It is always easier to throw away > than to restore! > --Greg > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:46:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Waiting is over, Teichmoeller Hopper Book is out Hi Folks It arrived today priority mail. I had ordered it last summer when I saw the prepublication offer. Be prepared, you will want to spend some time on this book, fight the temptation to dig out all the kits to get started right away. It was well worth the wait. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 12:21:18 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Waiting is over, Teichmoeller Hopper Book is out I'll second that comment. The wait was worth it. Chuck AlbertSR@aol.com wrote: > Hi Folks > It arrived today priority mail. I had ordered it last summer when I saw the > prepublication offer. > > Be prepared, you will want to spend some time on this book, fight the > temptation to dig out all the kits to get started right away. It was well > worth the wait. > > Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 16:24:37 DST Subject: Re: [PRR] throw away society? From: aurora7@juno.com The British are far and away above the U.S. in locomotive restoration, although I must say that the complete and total disassembly of operable steam locomotives every 7 years boggles the mind! Somehow, the Brits find the cash to fund such remarkable operations. If we had that kind of funding in the states, practicaly every park locomotive in the country would see a hot boiler again. However, I digress....I can't see a reason why a manufacturer, even one in China, could not build a reproduction NYC Hudson for the cost of some of our restoration projects. And by the way, since it is reported that the Chinese are now out of the steam business, are any American museums buying the machinery, lathes, tools, and other manufacturing equipment that have been used to knock out Mikados and Santa Fe class engines for the past 4 decades? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 18:35:18 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Waiting is over, Teichmoeller Hopper Book is out That's great! Now I don't have to lug all those Model Railroading magazines out of the closet. Does anyone have the cost and mailing information for John's book? I can pass it around. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 19:19:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Waiting is over, Teichmoeller Hopper Book is out In a message dated 09/02/2000 5:32:10 PM Central Daylight Time, prrbill@Op.Net writes: << That's great! Now I don't have to lug all those Model Railroading magazines out of the closet. Does anyone have the cost and mailing information for John's book? I can pass it around. Bill Morlitz >> Bill & list, The book has a cover price of $22.95. Its available from Model Railroading, There was an ad in the latest issue with an 800 order phone number. I don't have it handy right now. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 21:04:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Hopper Car Book From: Jerry Britton Folks, I can confirm for both our customers with Advance Reservations and those on PRR-Talk that the Hopper Book has shipped!!! On 9/1/00 5:27 PM, xxx at (xxx@modelrailroadingmag.com) wrote: > Your order has been processed and shipped VIA UPS. Should arrive at your > business next Friday. > > Thank you for your patience and I hope you will require a reorder for your > customers in the near future. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] PRR hopper class? Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 18:18:03 -0700 Since I live out here in california, I'll probably be one of the last to get my copies of the hopper book. Maybe someone who has their's already can answer a question. The October RMC page 83 shows a Pennsylvania Lines hopper built by Standard Steel Car Co. design . I can't quite make out the class. Is it Gb or GLb? Does Mr. Teichmoller discuss this class? Does he mention how long they were on the road? --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest in the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] SRC photos Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 23:53:58 -0400 For pictures of the 40th anniversary special check out http://www.wsbcos.com/srr3140a.jpg http://www.wsbcos.com/srr3140b.jpg Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Hopper class or "even an O scaler" Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 08:02:20 -0700 To answer part of my own question, I have confirmed the class is GLb. According to the RMC article they were built in 1904 , a total of 230 for the Pennsylvania Company and 135 for the PFW&C. Much more will built for other railroads. However the article , in regards to all railroads, states that, "By 1940 about 250 of these cars remained. They were divided among the Wheeling & Lake Erie, the CRR of New Jersey and Michigan Alkali. Considering that the GL, Glc hoppers were built in 1898, to 1902 and were still on the road at least into the 1950s, I wonder what happened to the GLbs on the PRR. If memory serves they may have been converted into covered hoppers. Anyone out there with more info? For Al, As for "even an O scaler will enjoy" Tiechmoeler's hopper book. I would like to invite you to an operating session when my friend Dick Bregler and I run our PRR hopper train on our club layout. At present we run better than a 50 car hopper train. We are waiting for Grybowski to finish the Crown truck for our H21a and H22a hoppers so we can paint, letter them and add them to the train. Betweem the two of us, we have 23 of these to add. Our ultimate goal is to have a 100 car hopper train. Greater than 75% of the cars are brass, many very detailed cars, the rest are detailed or superdetailed plastic kits or homemade prototypically correct cars. Yes, we are hopper fanatics! We have a huge club layout and a "tower" area that overlooks the whole layout. Even as huge as the layout is, the hopper train stretches out over about an eighth of it and looks like a giant snake moving across it. In the future we hope to add more GLa and GLc,GLca hoppers if Pac Ltd imports them. Also I would like to see a good I1sa done in O scale either by CLW or Kohs. I'd like to have two pulling and two pushing. My wife is from Shamokin, PA. I would like to replicate "the ore train". ---Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Shops/ RenovoYard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:53:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Hopper class or "even an O scaler" In a message dated 9/3/00 10:43:58 AM Central Daylight Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << I wonder what happened to the GLbs on the PRR. If memory serves they may have been converted into covered hoppers. Anyone out there with more info? >> Class GLE covered hopper, Westerfield HO kit 7463. Unless I lost it, I was surprised his kit contained less prototype information than usual. There is a photo of the model with the caption "GLE as rebuilt 1931". Don't know if that is the date of conversion to covered hopper. His kit 7460 is for the GLB itself. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 13:50:38 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Hopper class or "even an O scaler" A GLE covered hopper remained on the tracks on the Mt Union freight leads east of "JACKS" as late as the early to mid-1980's.It was pretty interesting. Sorry it wasn't saved. BL Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/3/00 10:43:58 AM Central Daylight Time, gas@fastinet.net > writes: > > << I wonder what happened to the > GLbs on the PRR. If memory serves they may have been converted into covered > hoppers. Anyone out there with more info? >> > > Class GLE covered hopper, Westerfield HO kit 7463. Unless I lost it, I was > surprised his kit contained less prototype information than usual. There is > a photo of the model with the caption "GLE as rebuilt 1931". Don't know if > that is the date of conversion to covered hopper. His kit 7460 is for the > GLB itself. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 16:06:25 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Web Sites Back Up (I Think) From: Jerry Britton I've upgraded from the dead PowerMac 8100/80 to a G4/400 -- what a difference in processing power!!! Anyway, the web server "appears" to be working. I can hit it from another machine. However, since both are behind the firewall and changes to IP addresses were involved, I'd appreciate it if a few of you listers would try to hit a few of the sites to confirm... http://kc.pennsyrr.com http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com http://www.dsop.com http://www.railfancentral.com http://www.brasstrains.net Let me know if anything seems amiss. Really appreciate your patience. BTW: E-mail archive from the list will NOT be complete. I need to manually "feed in" the digests from the past week. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lyle Burns" Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 13:41:56 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C015AC.BA3B98C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Being a PRR fan and modeler, I am going to have a chance to visit = Horseshoe Curve the week of Sept. 25. As I am a "desert rat" from Arizona, I am not familiar with what day of = the week and times to see the most trains . Any suggestions? Thanks! ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C015AC.BA3B98C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Being a PRR fan and modeler, I am going = to have a=20 chance to visit  Horseshoe Curve the week of Sept. 25.
As I  am a "desert rat" from = Arizona, I am not=20 familiar with what day of the week and times to see the most trains=20 .
Any suggestions?
Thanks!
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C015AC.BA3B98C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] Lawyers as Railroad Chairmen esp. PRR Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:24:07 -0400 I know some people (maybe most) like to bash lawyers. Perhaps the lawyers have brought it on themselves and perhaps they deserve it, I’ll reserve judgment on that matter. However, having worked for the PRR (in the operating department, not as a lawyer) I can sympathize with those who like to hold STS (the lawyer) responsible for the PRR’s financial demise. However, the PRR and NYC were in financial trouble long before STS became Chairman. Its troubles began during the engineers and traditional operating people’s watch. I don’t think one can hold STS responsible for the PRR’s demise, but without doubt he did play a major role in the demise of the Penn Central. Following is from “The PRR in the Shenango Valley – A History of the Erie and Pittsburgh Railroad” © 2000 by Alan B. Buchan. Subject to final edit. “Both the PRR and NYC were in financial trouble before the merger, and if the merger had not taken place both would have most likely succumbed to bankruptcy at some point, however, perhaps not quite as quickly as the 2½ years it took the PC. The pre-merger problems were primarily a function of inadequate earnings, low cash resources and massive debt. The PRR had one of the lowest rates of return of all the major lines and had only put off losses by using revenue from outside sources, e.g. the P.Co. holdings of the Wabash and N&W. Likewise the NYC made up its railroad losses from outside sources, primarily its Park Avenue properties in Manhattan. Except for a brief period during WWII, they like most railroads, had generally been in financial decline since the beginning of the Great Depression in 1939. The railroad decline in the Northeast was a function of a higher density of lines than most other areas of the country as well as industrial decline – the east was no longer the heartland of American industry. Too much high-value traffic such as manufactured goods, which could demand a high rate tariff (compared with bulk commodities, which moved at lower rates), was being diverted to other modes, primarily truck which to some extent was subsidized through construction of the Interstate system. There was a shift from coal to oil and gas as a preferred fuel. Passenger services were being provided at a loss with fares regulated at inadequate levels. Work-rules and crewing requirements were based on tradition rather than what had come to be needed through the use of new technology. Although the railroad industry had been highly innovative in developing management structures and techniques during its formative years, it didn’t keep up with the times and lacked modern management techniques and financial reporting systems. Investment in plant and equipment was generally made on traffic volume rather than profit generated – there was little to no analysis of Return of Invested Capital.” More text follows, but it dwells on the merger rather than just the PRR. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 20:12:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve In a message dated 09/03/2000 4:56:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lburns3@home.com writes: << Being a PRR fan and modeler, I am going to have a chance to visit Horseshoe Curve the week of Sept. 25. As I am a "desert rat" from Arizona, I am not familiar with what day of the week and times to see the most trains . Any suggestions? Thanks! >> As a local resident with no access to a published NS timetable, but with experience as a docent for Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum and Horseshoe Curve National Historic Site, I can only offer that you should not have any difficulty seeing regular train traffic. It rarely (but occasionally does) occur with tour groups that no trains pass by, but these groups are usually on abreviated schedules. In the period from 11:15 a.m. to 12:30 P.M., IF Amtrak is reasonably close to schedule, you should see the Westbound Pennsylvanian and the eastbound Three Rivers. Of recent months, Sunday traffic seems light and possibly into early Monday. The rest of the week is usually steady with regular intermittent traffic and double stacks are moving between 3 and 5 pm. Predecessor Conrail did have a published timetable, posted at the Curve, of most of their regularly scheduled traffic. Not aware of current posting via NS. Recommend train watching at Cresson, Gallitzin, Horseshoe Curve, and in Altoona at/near Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum and on the 8th Street Juniata Bridge approximately one mile east of museum at Rose Yard office. Hope this helps. Dave Seidel, Altoona, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 20:39:51 -0400 Howdy Viv and list: I don't have a standard for a PRR bridge, but I would recommend the book "Without Fitting, Filing, or Chipping An Illustrated History of the Phoenix Bridge Company" By Thomas Winpenny. The book has many in depth detailed construction prints and an appendix if designs. It is about the company and the works more than just the bridges and it is not intended as a modelers add. The LV, RDG, NYC, NYNH&H are but a few of the railroads that purchased bridges. Before the I-beam they developed the "Phoenix Column", a circular beam. The Pine Street bridge in Harrisburg PA is one of the last Phoenix Column bridges. Not exactly what you where looking for, but a great source of information. Cos G'day Listers, I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most useful. Viv Brice, another SPF from down under PRRT&HS member 6781 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] GLb hopper in Teichmoeller's book Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:41:29 -0700 I just recieved my hopper books. The GLb is covered in pages 141-143. I guess those who responded did not get that far yet. Yeah John!!! Hoppers rule!!! --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Shops ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lawyers as Railroad Chairmen esp. PRR Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 03:55:50 GMT Interesting post, Al. I would agree that STS was not solely responsible for the demise of PC; Mr. Bevan and the Board also played roles, for actions and inactions, respectively. STS as Chairman had an obligation to his shareholders to maximize their return, something the railroad could not do but diversification could. Never-the-less, he was not exactly truthful in regards to condition of the first PRR then PC and painted a false picture instead of telling the hard, truth. As for lawyers as CEO's, certainly mixed reviews on their success. NS (and NW before them) had a whole procession of lawyers: Saunders, Fishwick, Claytor and Goode. But then anyone could run NS/NW and make money. >From: "Al Buchan" >To: "PRR-Talk" >Subject: [PRR] Lawyers as Railroad Chairmen esp. PRR >Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 17:24:07 -0400 > >I know some people (maybe most) like to bash lawyers. Perhaps the lawyers >have brought it on themselves and perhaps they deserve it, I’ll reserve >judgment on that matter. However, having worked for the PRR (in the >operating department, not as a lawyer) I can sympathize with those who like >to hold STS (the lawyer) responsible for the PRR’s financial demise. >However, the PRR and NYC were in financial trouble long before STS became >Chairman. Its troubles began during the engineers and traditional operating >people’s watch. I don’t think one can hold STS responsible for the PRR’s >demise, but without doubt he did play a major role in the demise of the >Penn >Central. > >Following is from “The PRR in the Shenango Valley – A History of the Erie >and Pittsburgh Railroad” © 2000 by Alan B. Buchan. Subject to final edit. > >“Both the PRR and NYC were in financial trouble before the merger, and if >the merger had not taken place both would have most likely succumbed to >bankruptcy at some point, however, perhaps not quite as quickly as the 2½ >years it took the PC. The pre-merger problems were primarily a function of >inadequate earnings, low cash resources and massive debt. The PRR had one >of >the lowest rates of return of all the major lines and had only put off >losses by using revenue from outside sources, e.g. the P.Co. holdings of >the >Wabash and N&W. Likewise the NYC made up its railroad losses from outside >sources, primarily its Park Avenue properties in Manhattan. Except for a >brief period during WWII, they like most railroads, had generally been in >financial decline since the beginning of the Great Depression in 1939. > The railroad decline in the Northeast was a function of a higher >density >of lines than most other areas of the country as well as industrial >decline – the east was no longer the heartland of American industry. Too >much high-value traffic such as manufactured goods, which could demand a >high rate tariff (compared with bulk commodities, which moved at lower >rates), was being diverted to other modes, primarily truck which to some >extent was subsidized through construction of the Interstate system. There >was a shift from coal to oil and gas as a preferred fuel. Passenger >services >were being provided at a loss with fares regulated at inadequate levels. >Work-rules and crewing requirements were based on tradition rather than >what >had come to be needed through the use of new technology. Although the >railroad industry had been highly innovative in developing management >structures and techniques during its formative years, it didn’t keep up >with >the times and lacked modern management techniques and financial reporting >systems. Investment in plant and equipment was generally made on traffic >volume rather than profit generated – there was little to no analysis of >Return of Invested Capital.” > >More text follows, but it dwells on the merger rather than just the PRR. > >Al > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 21:36:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve From: "Doug and Marianne" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3050861765_2367851_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lyle: I'm not sure how much has changed, but under Conrail traffic was highest on Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. This was do to manufacturers and shippers working through the week with products shipped at the end of the week. Monday's were traditionally the slowest day, therefore this was the day that high and wide loads were usually seen. NS has not yet achieved service levels provided by Conrail, so this pattern may less important. With that said, probably any day except Monday would be a good day. As for times, I'm not sure, but my impression is that afternoons are better than mornings. Take a picnic and a scanner if you have one, and spend a few hours. Your'e likely to see more than a few trains. Doug N. ---------- From: "Lyle Burns" To: Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 1:41 PM Being a PRR fan and modeler, I am going to have a chance to visit Horseshoe Curve the week of Sept. 25. As I am a "desert rat" from Arizona, I am not familiar with what day of the week and times to see the most trains . Any suggestions? Thanks! --MS_Mac_OE_3050861765_2367851_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Lyle:

I'm not sure how much has changed, but under Conrail traffic was highest on= Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays.  This was do to manufacturers and s= hippers working through the week with products shipped at the end of the wee= k.  Monday's were traditionally the slowest day, therefore this was the= day that high and wide loads were usually seen.  NS has not yet achiev= ed service levels provided by Conrail, so this pattern may less important.
With that said, probably any day except Monday would be a good day.

As for times, I'm not sure, but my impression is that afternoons are better= than mornings.  Take a picnic and a scanner if you have one, and spend= a few hours.  Your'e likely to see more than a few trains.

Doug N.

----------
From: "Lyle Burns" <lburns3@home.com>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve
Date: Sun, Sep 3, 2000, 1:41 PM


Being a PRR fan and modeler, = I am going to have a chance to visit  Horseshoe Curve the week of Sept.= 25.
As I  am a "desert rat" from Arizona, I am not familiar with= what day of the week and times to see the most trains .
Any suggestions?
Thanks!

--MS_Mac_OE_3050861765_2367851_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 08:37:38 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Lawyers as Railroad Chairmen esp. PRR The point was not to bash STS, but to point out that government regulation had become so pervasive and intrusive that it became ever more difficult for the PRR to earn a reasonable return on its investment and to deal with the ever increasing government presence the Board of Directors for this first time turned to an outsider and a lawyer. I think Steve's response correctly points to the personal failings of STS in not being forthright and candid as to the situation on the PRR and PC. I have had the pleasure and benefit of interviewing an inside party to some of the intense negociation between the PRR and NYC prior to the merger and if his report has credence, and there is no reason to believe it doesn't, truth and veracity were not a very strong point in what transpired. Some sessions described to me were more like a Marx Brothers movie. I think the problem is the fact that: 1. You cannot generalize about human behaviour 2. Every person has to be judged on their own merits or defects; however, Some lawyers' view of the truth and their obligation to tell it is somewhat clouded by their training and work experience. When a lawyer argues a case before a judge or jury, he is not bound to tell the truth! He makes the best case for his client. After many years of this type work experience, I believe the line between truth and fiction becomes blurred at best. Look at the composition of AMTRAK's current Board of Directors. Loaded with Government types who probably never had to meet a payroll or run an organization that was not augered by the taxpayer's ability to ante up the "shortfall". I have served on the FRA's RSAC, and if you think we are in an era of deregulation, think again because you are only fooling yourself! There is a political agenda concerning railroad operations and it is not a pretty picture. Al Buchan wrote: > > I know some people (maybe most) like to bash lawyers. Perhaps the lawyers > have brought it on themselves and perhaps they deserve it, I’ll reserve > judgment on that matter. However, having worked for the PRR (in the > operating department, not as a lawyer) I can sympathize with those who like > to hold STS (the lawyer) responsible for the PRR’s financial demise. > However, the PRR and NYC were in financial trouble long before STS became > Chairman. Its troubles began during the engineers and traditional operating > people’s watch. I don’t think one can hold STS responsible for the PRR’s > demise, but without doubt he did play a major role in the demise of the Penn > Central. > > Following is from “The PRR in the Shenango Valley – A History of the Erie > and Pittsburgh Railroad” © 2000 by Alan B. Buchan. Subject to final edit. > > “Both the PRR and NYC were in financial trouble before the merger, and if > the merger had not taken place both would have most likely succumbed to > bankruptcy at some point, however, perhaps not quite as quickly as the 2½ > years it took the PC. The pre-merger problems were primarily a function of > inadequate earnings, low cash resources and massive debt. The PRR had one of > the lowest rates of return of all the major lines and had only put off > losses by using revenue from outside sources, e.g. the P.Co. holdings of the > Wabash and N&W. Likewise the NYC made up its railroad losses from outside > sources, primarily its Park Avenue properties in Manhattan. Except for a > brief period during WWII, they like most railroads, had generally been in > financial decline since the beginning of the Great Depression in 1939. > The railroad decline in the Northeast was a function of a higher density > of lines than most other areas of the country as well as industrial > decline – the east was no longer the heartland of American industry. Too > much high-value traffic such as manufactured goods, which could demand a > high rate tariff (compared with bulk commodities, which moved at lower > rates), was being diverted to other modes, primarily truck which to some > extent was subsidized through construction of the Interstate system. There > was a shift from coal to oil and gas as a preferred fuel. Passenger services > were being provided at a loss with fares regulated at inadequate levels. > Work-rules and crewing requirements were based on tradition rather than what > had come to be needed through the use of new technology. Although the > railroad industry had been highly innovative in developing management > structures and techniques during its formative years, it didn’t keep up with > the times and lacked modern management techniques and financial reporting > systems. Investment in plant and equipment was generally made on traffic > volume rather than profit generated – there was little to no analysis of > Return of Invested Capital.” > > More text follows, but it dwells on the merger rather than just the PRR. > > Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] PRR X-40 and Trucks Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:38:17 -0400 Hello All; We have updated our web site www.railclassics.com to include photos of our most recent projects that have just arrived; they can be viewed at www.railclassics.com/Models.htm They include the PRR X-40 series of Box Cars in different configurations and also PRR trucks 2D-P5, 2D-F26/a in different configurations. Next will be the PRR, PC and Conrail F-38 HD Flat Cars, with load also available. After that, we feel the H2, H2a and H3 Hoppers in N&W, PRR, Wabash, and B&O railroad configurations will be ready to go into production. Also, take a look at our list of projects we will be importing in Brass HO Scale. Thank you for your time and send us your opinions, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 07:50:22 -0700 I don't think it right to slam lawyers as a group. Where would be without them? I know we in the medical proffession sure appreciate them. In fact a local medical research hospital uses them extensively. They have stopped using rats now for research and replaced them with lawyers. There are several good reasons for this. For one thing, there are more lawyers than rats. Also, the staff doesn't get nearly as attached to the lawyers as they did to the rats. But most importantly, there are some things a rat just won't do!. Seriously though. In this sue happy state of southern california, I sure was glad to have a good lawyer successfully defend my actions in a case. As far as the PRR demise goes, remember that nearly all railroads failed mostly becuase of the interstate highway system and the truck and automobile. The federal goverment set out to develop the interstate highway system to improve defense. Its development made the country more mobile and more capable of moving men and material in case of war and less vulnerable to sabatoge of a main line, like the horseshoe curve. The federal goverment heavily taxed the railroads while it subsidized the highways. It is hard to compete under such circumstances. Consider the reverse. If the highways all were to become toll roads and the railroads relieved of taxes and even subsidized for the building and maintenance of their lines what would you be riding in? A coach! --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Special interest Renovo Shops and Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:42:29 -0400 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > As far as the PRR demise goes, remember that nearly all railroads failed > mostly becuase of the interstate highway system and the truck and > automobile. The federal goverment set out to develop the interstate highway > system to improve defense They were also built to evacuate cities in case of attack. Now, does anybody think the highways would be successful in doing the job they were built to do? One look at rush hour tells me no. It was a nice idea though. Patrick -- =========================================================================== " My heart is warm with the friends I make, And better friends I'll not be knowing; Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take, No matter where it's going." -Edna St. Vincent Millay, Travel, 1921 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati (formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky PRRT&HS #6713 ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:25:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:42:29 -0400 > From: Patrick Rieger > Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > > As far as the PRR demise goes, remember that nearly all > > railroads failed mostly becuase of the interstate highway system > > and the truck and automobile. The federal goverment set out to > > develop the interstate highway system to improve defense > > They were also built to evacuate cities in case of attack. Now, > does anybody think the highways would be successful in doing the > job they were built to do? One look at rush hour tells me no. It > was a nice idea though. > > Patrick Not quite. There was never any intent to evacuate the cities with the Interstate system. The Interstates were designed and built to move military personnel and equipement in time of emergency. Most of the older highways carried signs saying that they were cloded to all civilian traffic in the event of a civil or military emergency. Not gonna do much evacuation on that! Bottom line? The Military asked the railroads to build more modern flatcars to handle military loads. The railroads refused saying that the military should build their own flatcars. The Eisenhower administration responded by pouring money into the Interstate system. Remember that the Secretary of Defense was a General Motors Exec. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! Everyone lost! Roger Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === NMRA track gauge. "Don't do trains without it." === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:34:40 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > From: "Roger P. Hensley" > To: PRR talk > Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 11:25:16 +0000 > Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > Most of the older highways carried signs saying that > they were cloded this was supposed to be 'closed to all civilian traffic in the event of a civil or military emergency. Not gonna do much evacuation on that!' Roger Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === NMRA track gauge. "Don't do trains without it." === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:49:56 -0400 In my opinion, the principal reason for the bankruptcy of the Penn Central(which would have happened to both partners had the merger not occurred) was the precipitous decline in manufacturing and coal mining in the eastern service area of both and the fact that PRR (and others) were prevented by government regulation(read strangulation) from rapidly downsizing their physical plants to reduce expenses more than revenues. Even in the 1960's one could ride from Philadelphia to New York and see abandoned factory after abandoned factory. Or if not abandoned, 20 abandoned rail spots and one working truck door with a UPS type "package car" parked at it. Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger P. Hensley" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:42:29 -0400 > > From: Patrick Rieger > > Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > > > > As far as the PRR demise goes, remember that nearly all > > > railroads failed mostly becuase of the interstate highway system > > > and the truck and automobile. The federal goverment set out to > > > develop the interstate highway system to improve defense > > > > They were also built to evacuate cities in case of attack. Now, > > does anybody think the highways would be successful in doing the > > job they were built to do? One look at rush hour tells me no. It > > was a nice idea though. > > > > Patrick > > Not quite. There was never any intent to evacuate the cities > with the Interstate system. The Interstates were designed and > built to move military personnel and equipement in time of > emergency. Most of the older highways carried signs saying that > they were cloded to all civilian traffic in the event of a > civil or military emergency. Not gonna do much evacuation on > that! > > Bottom line? The Military asked the railroads to build more > modern flatcars to handle military loads. The railroads refused > saying that the military should build their own flatcars. The > Eisenhower administration responded by pouring money into the > Interstate system. Remember that the Secretary of Defense was > a General Motors Exec. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! > Everyone lost! > > > Roger > > Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com > > === NMRA track gauge. "Don't do trains without it." === > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:00:59 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Railroads vs. Interstates Greetings to all who have weighed in on this: President Eisenhower intended that the interstate highway system should run from metropolitan area to metropolitan area, unlike the railroads, which served city centers. This was the pattern set by the nation's first superhighway, the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Even now, if you think about the difference between its alignment and that of the original main line of the Pennsy, it is a sharp contrast. The PRR linked the downtowns of Philadelphia, Lancaster, Harrisburg, Altoona, Johnstown, Greensburg, and Pittsburgh. On the other hand, the (original 1940) Turnpike started at Middlesex, 15 miles outside of Harrisburg, and continued through Path Valley, Burnt Cabins, Breezewood, past Bedford, through Somerset (the only town it actually passed through closely enough that you could see the street grid and courthouse in), New Baltimore, Donegal, New Stanton, and near but not in, Irwin, 20 miles outside of Pittsburgh. No city of any size and, with apologies to Somerset, no town of any size, either. This is what Eisenhowever had in mind for a national network. A story, once apocryphal but later documented in a history book, holds that sometime after he had signed the Interstate act in 1956, Eisenhower was being driven somewhere near D.C. and saw construction crews clearing neighborhoods to make way for the next phase of Interstate construction. He allegedly asked his aides, "What's that?" Whereupon they said, "It's the Interstate highway system you authorized." His reponse: "But I never intended it to come into the cities!" Whether the interstates came into the downtowns or not (and the debate over social values and neighborhood decimation that it raised still goes on) there's no doubt that the interstate system hastened the demise of the PRR, NYC and other railroads. The defense designation for the interstate system was true enough. Think about the entrance ramps in time of war -- the military stations a couple of armed soliders at each one and there's an instantly secure and closed system. But it is also true that in the Cold War atmosphere (and remember that it was at its height then--Sputnik went up in 10/57)--it was far easier to pass massive tax&spend legislation by labeling it as being necessary for defense. Of course, U.S. railroads were critical to defense in World War II, but that was before an enemy could target Omaha or Dallas, or, more to the point here, say, Conway, at will without the necessity of invading the U.S. The whole geopolitical landscape changed, and PRR, partly through its own shortcomings, but largely through factors outside of its control, was a political loser in the process. Dan Cupper "Roger P. Hensley" wrote: > > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 11:42:29 -0400 > > From: Patrick Rieger > > Subject: Re: [PRR] In defence of Lawyers > > > > As far as the PRR demise goes, remember that nearly all > > > railroads failed mostly becuase of the interstate highway system > > > and the truck and automobile. The federal goverment set out to > > > develop the interstate highway system to improve defense > > > > They were also built to evacuate cities in case of attack. Now, > > does anybody think the highways would be successful in doing the > > job they were built to do? One look at rush hour tells me no. It > > was a nice idea though. > > > > Patrick > > Not quite. There was never any intent to evacuate the cities > with the Interstate system. The Interstates were designed and > built to move military personnel and equipement in time of > emergency. Most of the older highways carried signs saying that > they were cloded to all civilian traffic in the event of a > civil or military emergency. Not gonna do much evacuation on > that! > > Bottom line? The Military asked the railroads to build more > modern flatcars to handle military loads. The railroads refused > saying that the military should build their own flatcars. The > Eisenhower administration responded by pouring money into the > Interstate system. Remember that the Secretary of Defense was > a General Motors Exec. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! > Everyone lost! > > Roger > > Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com > > === NMRA track gauge. "Don't do trains without it." === > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 12:49:32 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroads vs. Interstates > Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 13:00:59 -0400 > From: Dan Cupper > Subject: [PRR] Railroads vs. Interstates > To: rhensley@anderson.cioe.com > Cc: PRR talk > Greetings to all who have weighed in on this: > > President Eisenhower intended that the interstate highway system > should run from metropolitan area to metropolitan area, unlike the > railroads, which served city centers. This was the pattern set by > the nation's first superhighway, the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Even > now, if you think about the difference between its alignment and > that of the original main line of the Pennsy, it is a sharp contrast. The Pennsylvania Turnpike was built on unused railroad RoW and was built in the 40s as I recall and had nothing to do with the later Interstate authorization. That was why it didn't go city center to city center. That part would have been too expensive. I have no idea what Ike intended, :-) Roger Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com === NMRA track gauge. "Don't do trains without it." === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 17:01:23 -0400 Try locating a copy of "BRIDGE AND TRESTLE HANDBOOK," by Paul Mallery. It is (was) published by The Builder's COMPENDIUM. Good luck, Steve D"Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne S. Betty" To: ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:39 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Girder Bridges > > Howdy Viv and list: > I don't have a standard for a PRR bridge, but I would recommend the book > "Without Fitting, Filing, or Chipping An Illustrated History of the Phoenix > Bridge Company" By Thomas Winpenny. The book has many in depth detailed > construction prints and an appendix if designs. It is about the company > and the works more than just the bridges and it is not intended as a > modelers add. > > The LV, RDG, NYC, NYNH&H are but a few of the railroads that purchased > bridges. Before the I-beam they developed the "Phoenix Column", a circular > beam. The Pine Street bridge in Harrisburg PA is one of the last Phoenix > Column bridges. > > Not exactly what you where looking for, but a great source of information. > Cos > > > G'day Listers, > I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet > span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be > suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the > Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. > Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most > useful. > Viv Brice, another SPF from down under > PRRT&HS member 6781 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 16:21:45 -0700 Later this book was published by Carstens, and I think it is still available (geez...I thought that NOBODY remembers the late, lamented Builder's Compendium). My only complaint is that since Mallery is an EE type, he glosses over some of the basics of bridge design. At least I think that's why. Not to say that his comments aren't legit, however. Bill Daniels ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen A. D'Addio To: Wayne S. Betty ; ; PRR-Talk Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges > Try locating a copy of "BRIDGE AND TRESTLE HANDBOOK," by Paul Mallery. It is > (was) published by The Builder's COMPENDIUM. > > Good luck, > Steve D"Addio > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne S. Betty" > To: ; "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:39 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Girder Bridges > > > > > > Howdy Viv and list: > > I don't have a standard for a PRR bridge, but I would recommend the book > > "Without Fitting, Filing, or Chipping An Illustrated History of the > Phoenix > > Bridge Company" By Thomas Winpenny. The book has many in depth detailed > > construction prints and an appendix if designs. It is about the company > > and the works more than just the bridges and it is not intended as a > > modelers add. > > > > The LV, RDG, NYC, NYNH&H are but a few of the railroads that purchased > > bridges. Before the I-beam they developed the "Phoenix Column", a > circular > > beam. The Pine Street bridge in Harrisburg PA is one of the last Phoenix > > Column bridges. > > > > Not exactly what you where looking for, but a great source of information. > > Cos > > > > > > G'day Listers, > > I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet > > span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be > > suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the > > Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. > > Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most > > useful. > > Viv Brice, another SPF from down under > > PRRT&HS member 6781 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 21:52:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] PRR vs. Turnpike/interstates, semi-long "Roger P. Hensley" wrote: > The Pennsylvania Turnpike was built on unused railroad RoW > and was built in the 40s as I recall and had nothing to do > with the later Interstate authorization. Greetings to Roger and the list: Not to get too tangential on this, but there is a case to be made that the Pa. Turnpike hastened the political and economic demise of the railroads (and of course the PRR) through the impetus it created for a national interstate system. Remember that the whole idea of intercity high-speed highways and their construction and financing was unproven and unknown, and thus no one knew what the public response would be before the opening of the Pa. Turnpike. In the 1930s, the federal government's own figurehead on highways, "Chief" MacDonald, who came out of the old farm-to-market school of highway philosophy, strenuously opposed an interstate-type system, saying that only Philadelphia-New York-New Haven would be viable and ever begin to pay for itself (remember, this was still in the era of pay-as-you-go toll financing). The railroads, including PRR, agreed. They looked at the whole "express highway" phenomenon, which was embodied in GM's 1939-40 World's Fair exhibit, as nothing more than a sugar-coated fantasy. Otherwise, PRR never would have agreed so readily to sell its share of the ownership of the former South Pennsylvania RR r-o-w. As further evidence of how outlandish the idea seemed to the conventional thinking of the day, MacDonald predicted that the Pa. Turnpike would attract only 715 cars a day, but on opening weekend it handled 26,000 vehicles. >From the way national public highway policy changed so drastically--when bureaucrats like MacDonald lost their previously unchallenged clout because of being so drastically wrong--I'd argue that there was a direct corelation between the success of the Pa. Turnpike and the creation of momentum for the legislation that authorized the Interstate system. A bill to create a national system was introduced into Congress even before WWII was over, based largely on the success and the military application of the Pa. Turnpike. This development "should have" (hindsight is 20-20, of course) raised a red flag to PRR and others, but they were too busy fighting the transportation war, battling inflation, fixing up war-weary rolling stock, and making sure that the feds didn't get any more harebrained ideas like the WWI federal seizure of the American railroads, to take notice. When the bill finally passed in 1956--essentially handing billions in subsidies to truckers, Greyhound, and the private motorist, without giving railroads market freedom to exit routes or services or price services accordingly--the die was cast and it was only a matter of time until the northeastern trunk-line railroads, with their heavy terminal costs, high reliance on a shrinking manufacturing base, short-haul portions of transcon rates, and high investment in passenger infrastructure, went bankrupt. Developments such as diesels, intermodal traffic, and unit trains probably delayed the inevitable by a year or two at most. It's no coincidence that PC, EL (right there are three of the four eastern trunks), LV, CNJ, and RDG were hardest hit, with B&O (the fourth trunk) escaping only by finding refuge in C&O ownership. FWIW. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania Steel Company Booklet Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 21:20:03 -0500 I purchased a book today and was hoping some people may help shed some light on it. It was put out by the Pennsylvania Steel Company Frog and Switch Department titled `Terminal Layouts'. It was published in 1910 and has some very fascinating photographs of different locations on the Pennsylvania Railroad. Has a track layout of Pennyslvania Terminal, New York. Photographs of Broad Street Station, Union Station Baltimore, Washington Terminal Station, Pittsburg Union Station. The booklet deals with the different "Manard" crossings in these locations and also of slip switches. If anyone has more infomation on this booklet I would like to know. Randy Williamson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: " " Subject: [PRR] Carnegie yard Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 22:45:22 -0400 Does anyone have or can anyone tell me where I can find a track plan for PRR Scully Yard and the PRR yard at Carnegie, PA for the 1930's-1950's? Photos of same would also be helpful. Today, what's left of Scully is a car storage area for the PIR/CSX and Carnegie yard disappeared in the early 60s to "urban redevelopment" along with about 1/4th of the town. Frank Stingone Carnegie, PA --- --- fstingone@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 02:56:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] pittsburgh commuter schedules? So, until 1964 the Pennsy operated commuter service around Pittsburgh. I've never seen a public schedule for this service; Did a schedule or schedules exist in printed form? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lawyers as Railroad Chairmen esp. PRR Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 08:52:45 -0500 Bennett and list, I don't recall that you were shooting at STS and lawyers in general, however, some subsequent posts were alluding to that. That's why I made the post. I always believed that Symes picked STS to pretty much do what you stated, that is deal with the government and get the PRR and NYC merged. Symes believed that STS was needed to pull off the necessary political maneuvers to get the two companies merged which in the 1960s was pretty much the top priority. Regarding the PRR-NYC merger negotiations I would agree - Perlman and Saunders just didn't hit it off, never did before the merger and I believe it got worse after the merger. I could see the writing on the wall and left shortly after the merger. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] throw away society? Date: Tue, 5 Sep 100 09:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Bennett Levin scribit: > Sic Transit Gloria! (Whatever that means) A shortened version of "sic transit gloria mundi". Translation: thus (sic) goes (transit) the glory (gloria) of the world (mundi). True scholars of Latin may have a more precise translation of "transit" than mine. The phrase is used as a final sentiment in discussions of great things which have passed away. PRRish content: this phrase was used in description of the 1960s-1970s PRR/PC troubles/bankruptcy. I don't recall who used it first, but I believe it was used either in _The Wreck of the Penn Central_ or in _No Way to Run a Railroad_. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:24:26 -0400 Good'ay! To answer your question, I do not think that the PRR had standards for truss bridges or other large bridges. keep in mind that the most of the large bridges built on the PRR were constructed prior to 1920. These were the days of Lines East and Lines West and dozens and dozens of subsidiaries. Because of this, there was no standard bridge design. The PRR had alot of truss bridges throughout its system and although they were similar in overall appearance, thery were different in design and details. For modeling truss bridges on the PRR, I would recommend using a truss having large bulky members making up the truss. The Pennsy carried bulk commodities such as coal and ore and knew the importance of having heavy duty bridges on its rail lines. Off the top of my head, I think that there are a few HO scale truss bridges that would fit in on a PRR layout. Walthers has a double track truss bridge which is close to your dimensions (80-90 feet) This bridge, according to Walthers, is based on the prototype crossing the Wabash River in Lafayette, Indiana. It was used by both the Nickle Plate and NYC. Other bridges that would work are Kibri and Plastistruc. In my opinion, the Central Valley truss bridge, although exquisite, is "too small" for the PRR. In other words, the cross sections of the bridge members are too small and therefore would not have a high tonnage rating. The Campbell Scale Models wooden truss (which I built 20 years ago) is way too small and would be good for light loads such as interurban use. This is just a starting point. You could use these bridges "as is" or kitbash them. Another good source are PRR books where you find a bridge or type of bridge you want to base you model on. That way, you can get a model of a bridge that approximates those on the Pennsy. I am sort of in a similar situation that you are in. I am modeling a double track pony truss on the PRR Fort Wayne Line. It looks like it will be a major kitbashing project. I hope that this helps! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Viv & Sylvie Brice [mailto:vivbrice@ozemail.com.au] Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 3:54 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Girder Bridges G'day Listers, I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most useful. Viv Brice, another SPF from down under PRRT&HS member 6781 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Imports (OLD Query) Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:22:05 -0400 Are you sure about the number? I have a diagram of a Webb Compound engine on my site but the diagram lists the engine number as 1320... The diagram can be viewed at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=webb_comp_1320.gif Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > BBReynolds@aol.com > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 12:49 PM > To: pgrace@aspects.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Cc: BBReynolds@aol.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Imports (OLD Query) > > > In a message dated 3/2/2000 5:53:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, > pgrace@aspects.net writes: > > > While the John Bull is the best known import by the Pennsy there was a > later > > import.. In the late 1890's a Webb compound was imported. It > was a copy by > > Bayer Peacock of a "Dreadnaught" class locomotive of the London & North > > Western Railway. This arrangement instead of the LNWR works at Crewe > because > > British laws forbade railway works building locomotives for > export. It was > a > > 2-4-0 tender locomotive, but as a result of the design it was > effectively a > 2- > > 2-2-0 locomotive. It was possible to get the wheels spinning in > opposite > > directions! I believe it was numbered 1520. ( The information > above comes > > from a book called Railways at the Turn of the Century by O.S. > Nock ). Does > > any one else know anything about it. > > > > What Patrick Grace made this query, I knew I had seen picture of the > locomotive > sometime in the prior year or so, but couldn't remember where: > just putting > away > some accumulations from my pile system, and see p. 35 of the > Spring 1999 issue > of (Volume XXII, Number 3): caption reads > as follows: > > "Engine 1520 (...) was a Webb compound built in Great Britain by Beyer, > Peacock in > 1888. Modified early by the PRR, it featured a single under-the-boiler > cylinder driving the first driving axle and two exterior > cylinders connected > to the second. It never received a class letter and had a brief > life. In > Great Britain, too, these engines soon earned a dubious > reputation for, among > other things, needed a push to get a train into motion if the engine was > stopped in a bad position of the valve gear. Unclassified (1 2-2-2 Webb > compound engine) 2-14 and 1 30x24cyls 75"DR Beyer-Peacock, 1888 Karl E. > Schlachter collection" > > I do not recall any other responses to this query; if there were, please > forgive the repeat of the information. > > Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: [PRR] RE:PRR vs. Turnpike/interstates Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:51:28 -0400 List: There are many reasons and causes for the decline of PRR and other Eastern trunk lines, from the development of competition to the change in traffic base to the overload of regulation. Eisenhower's role was noted earlier. While he was an officer at the Gettysburg Training Camp in WWI he had problems with the rail service that stayed on his mind for a long time. He related in his memoirs about the time he had to hurry some supplies to a unit that was about to board their transport in Philadelphia. Regular rail freight would have taken up to seven days! He had to ship via express which still took two days, and he had to justify the expense to his superiors. After WWI he was an officer on a cross country military truck convoy which demonstrated the viability of motor transport. It also demonstrated our road system at the time [1920] was totally undependable for mobile warfare. That helped bring about the US Route system [remember them] of mostly two lane highways that was superceded by the Intersate system as noted in earlier posts after the Pa. Turnpike [US], the QEW[Canada]; the M-1 [UK] and the Autobahn [Germany] had demonstrated the limited access highway. As much as we like trains, I do not think many of us really wish to have the highways of the 1920s, or even the early 1950s. The Federal Government also embarked in the late 1940s a campaign to disperse industry throughout the country to counter the threat of intercontinental bombers [not rockets yet] armed with nuclear warheads. This was before the USSR had the A-bomb. I have a PRR public timetable that advertises PRR's ability to assist companies to locate to more diverse sites within its network. This dispersal assisted in reducing the traffic base in the Northeast. The movement of industry to other regions of the country was also spurred on by high taxes and flight from union labor. They could move to new territories, so can motor and air transport; a railroad is fixed to its area except through acquisition or merger. The rail lines in the South and the West strengthened during and after WWII, though they had their troubles, their traffic base increased. Much of this has been discussed before. Paul Stumpff; Geneva, Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:04:53 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: RE: [PRR] Girder Bridges Ted Andrews said: >To answer your question, I do not think that the PRR had standards for truss >bridges or other large bridges. keep in mind that the most of the large >bridges built on the PRR were constructed prior to 1920. These were the days >of Lines East and Lines West and dozens and dozens of subsidiaries. Because >of this, there was no standard bridge design. The PRR had alot of truss >bridges throughout its system and although they were similar in overall >appearance, thery were different in design and details. I think I agree with Ted on truss bridges, however it is important to consider that bridges on one branch may all be similar. For example, there are several examples of steel trestles on the A&S branch that are very similar in design (Downingtown, Martic Forge, Safe Harbor) and this makes sense since the same man was responsible for all of the bridges when that line was being built in 1904-5. I am going to modle at least one of these bridges (Safe Harbor) by kitbashing the MicroEngineering Tall Steel Viaduct, which is single track, into double track... >In my opinion, the Central Valley truss bridge, although exquisite, is "too >small" for the PRR. In other words, the cross sections of the bridge members >are too small and therefore would not have a high tonnage rating. It is actually almost perfect for a bridge on the Octoraro branch that I will model (max rated for L-1s/K-4s locos). Another bridge on this branch looks like a spindly version of the MicroEngineering Tall Steel Viaduct - the Elkview Trestle, only the real bridge seems even more fragile than the model . Double headed H-9s were often split by 15 cars to reduce concentrated weight on the bridge... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:14:18 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges With 70 feet of clearance below the bridge, it would have been a deck truss rather than a through truss. This will work better in HO as well by making it easier to deal with derailments on the bridge (assuming they stay on the bridge). The bad news is that I don't know of any reasonable model of a deck truss. The good news is that it is easy to build from the Central Valley laced beams kit. Any recent bridge (post 1910) with a flat top chord (bottom chord on a deck truss) would be a Warren Truss. If you build a deck truss with a curved bottom chord, it would be a Pratt truss. If you are only spanning 80-90 feet you are still within the range of a girder bridge, but a short truss is also possible. Especially if the loads would be heavy (iron ore?). Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > Good'ay! > > To answer your question, I do not think that the PRR had standards for truss > bridges or other large bridges. keep in mind that the most of the large > bridges built on the PRR were constructed prior to 1920. These were the days > of Lines East and Lines West and dozens and dozens of subsidiaries. Because > of this, there was no standard bridge design. The PRR had alot of truss > bridges throughout its system and although they were similar in overall > appearance, thery were different in design and details. > > For modeling truss bridges on the PRR, I would recommend using a truss > having large bulky members making up the truss. The Pennsy carried bulk > commodities such as coal and ore and knew the importance of having heavy > duty bridges on its rail lines. > > Off the top of my head, I think that there are a few HO scale truss bridges > that would fit in on a PRR layout. Walthers has a double track truss bridge > which is close to your dimensions (80-90 feet) This bridge, according to > Walthers, is based on the prototype crossing the Wabash River in Lafayette, > Indiana. It was used by both the Nickle Plate and NYC. Other bridges that > would work are Kibri and Plastistruc. > > In my opinion, the Central Valley truss bridge, although exquisite, is "too > small" for the PRR. In other words, the cross sections of the bridge members > are too small and therefore would not have a high tonnage rating. The > Campbell Scale Models wooden truss (which I built 20 years ago) is way too > small and would be good for light loads such as interurban use. > > This is just a starting point. You could use these bridges "as is" or > kitbash them. Another good source are PRR books where you find a bridge or > type of bridge you want to base you model on. That way, you can get a model > of a bridge that approximates those on the Pennsy. > > I am sort of in a similar situation that you are in. I am modeling a double > track pony truss on the PRR Fort Wayne Line. It looks like it will be a > major kitbashing project. > > I hope that this helps! > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Viv & Sylvie Brice [mailto:vivbrice@ozemail.com.au] > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 3:54 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] Girder Bridges > > G'day Listers, > I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet > span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be > suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the > Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. > Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most > useful. > > Viv Brice, another SPF from down under > PRRT&HS member 6781 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:15:01 -0400 From: Terry Brentzel Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division Doug, A minor clarification regarding your post from last wednesday. You stated..... > At CP, the assigned routings were switched once again for the > approaches to Pitcairn yard, where #1 was WB pass.; #2 EB pass.; #3 WB > freight; and #4 EB freight. This was to route the passenger mains out > of the way of freights waiting to enter, or exiting Pitcairn yard. > These assignments retained until R tower at East Pittsburgh, where the > passenger trains again were routed to the 1 and 4 tracks, and freights > to the two inside tracks. I assume this was to position freights to > access Wilkensburg yard, and to keep commuter trains on the outside > mains for ease of access to the smaller commuter stations along the > line. I believe normal routing from CP in Larimer to R at E. Pittsburgh was: #1 EB freight, #2 WB freight, #3 EB pass and #4 WB pass. Your assumption regarding this rerouting of traffic at CP and R so as to allow easier freight access to and from Pitcairn yard is correct. My little and pony league baseball home field was immediately adjacent to CP tower in Larimer. There, a very kind tower operator (unfortunately, his name long forgotten) allowed several of us budding railfans to get a drink of water and, more importantly, access to the second floor to watch the (what in the late 50's / early 60's seemed to be an) endless parade of trains. Today, the tower of course is 29 years (razed early summer of 1971) long gone and the ball field now is home to fifty foot maple and oak trees in the outfield. Terry Brentzel Washington D.C. (former resident of Irwin, PA) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 14:20:47 -0400 From: Terry Brentzel Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division re: Derrick's 30-Aug-00 reply > On 30 Aug 2000, Doug Drew wrote: > > > In the case of the stretch from CP to SW tower in Greensburg, the > > changes of track assignment in a relatively short distance, the > > reduction of the number of tracks due to the tunnel, plus the presence > > of the junctions to the Southwest Secondary, things could be made > > interesting on a model railroad depicting this stretch of four-track > > main. > > Depending on the year you model, you also get the ought track at Irwin on > the original alignment, and a junction to the branch whose name now fails > me that ran down to (just west of) Herminie, and after 1941 terminated > just south of Irwin at Cereal Hill, just before a tunnel. > This was the Youghiogheny Branch. (Spelling quiz tomorrow.) Terry Brentzel Washington D.C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:43:16 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division --- Terry Brentzel wrote: > re: Derrick's 30-Aug-00 reply > > This was the Youghiogheny Branch. (Spelling quiz > tomorrow.) In re: Spelling. You nailed it. It runs in my mind that the branch was originally built and operated by a coal company, so as to have a non-PRR outlet to the rest of the world. Can't remember when or who, though. Penn Gas Coal? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 14:54:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, robert netzlof wrote: > It runs in my mind that the branch was originally > built and operated by a coal company, so as to have a > non-PRR outlet to the rest of the world. Can't > remember when or who, though. Penn Gas Coal? I know Westmoreland Coal operated in that valley, maybe not that far up it -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:07:31 -0700 I believe that I mentioned previously that Paul Mallery's books on bridges and trestles (yes, there is a difference) is somewhat accurate, but not always. The comment that Andy mentions about having adequate clearance below a bridge dictates what style of bridge will be erected is one of the "not always" that I allude to. I personally know of a location out here in the wild and wooly west where SP built a pin-connected truss (very similar to the Central Valley truss bridge) over an non-navigable river (the San Pedro in Benson, AZ) with more than enough clearance to dictate a deck bridge (if this were the only criterion). Unfortunately, it isn't the only criterion. Often an older bridge is moved to a new location, or the transportation and erection costs dictate a easier to erect bridge (as the case was with the SP) When all other things are equal, cost is the main consideration. Incidently, to prove a point, when SP double-tracked this particular segment of track, the new bridge was a thought girder. Bridge design is dictated by many variables...and railroad bridges have their own pecular set of standards. For example, during the first part of the 20th Century, the ARA (and later on, the AAR) dictated that the minimum rating for mainline bridges were to be built to a Cooper rating of E-72 (today, the AAR standard is somewhat higher, E-80, for mainline structures). A Cooper rating of E-72 is defined as a point load of 36,000 lbs (or kips) followed by 4 point loads of 72,000 lbs, 8 feet beyond the first load, and spaced at 5 foot intervals. This is followed at a distance of 9 feet by 4 32,000 lb point loads at a spacing of 5 feet, 6 feet and 5 feet respectively. After a distance of 8 feet the same load pattern is repeated for a total length of 100 feet, and finally followed by continous load of 5,000 lbs per foot. (For the more astute of readers, this translates into a pair of consolidation class steam locomotives with 4 wheel tenders with an axle load of 72,000 lbs, followed by a train). This method is still used today in the railroad engineering industry, although it is no longer taught in University engineering classes. The PRR, as a steam road, would have built their steel structures following this standard, although their engineering department might have dictated a higher standard, although the standard was certainly adequate for the day. Remember, the cars of the era were primairly 40~50 tons in capacity (with car weights of about the same, for a total weight of approximately 80~100 tons per car), independent of the road (notice that passenger cars became lighter over the years, but interestingly enough the weight of a passenger car was pretty much independent of the load) . The fact that this was adequate speaks for itself in that even today, these structures still carry mainline loadings with virtually no failures. Interestingely enough, one of the primary considerations for the size of bridge members was the fact that in steam days refiegerator cars were ice activated, and the ice had salt added to it to reduce the temperature. As the ice melted, the resulting brine drained off and would be the primary agent for corrosion damage to bridges. Therefore, for the first half of the 20th century bridges had to be designed heavier than required to withstand the corrosive salt baths from these cars. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Miller To: Andrews, Ted Cc: ; PRR-Talk Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges > With 70 feet of clearance below the bridge, it would have been a deck > truss rather than a through truss. This will work better in HO as > well by making it easier to deal with derailments on the bridge > (assuming they stay on the bridge). The bad news is that I don't know > of any reasonable model of a deck truss. The good news is that it is > easy to build from the Central Valley laced beams kit. Any recent > bridge (post 1910) with a flat top chord (bottom chord on a deck truss) > would be a Warren Truss. If you build a deck truss with a curved bottom > chord, it would be a Pratt truss. > > If you are only spanning 80-90 feet you are still within the range of a > girder bridge, but a short truss is also possible. Especially if the > loads would be heavy (iron ore?). > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > > > Good'ay! > > > > To answer your question, I do not think that the PRR had standards for truss > > bridges or other large bridges. keep in mind that the most of the large > > bridges built on the PRR were constructed prior to 1920. These were the days > > of Lines East and Lines West and dozens and dozens of subsidiaries. Because > > of this, there was no standard bridge design. The PRR had alot of truss > > bridges throughout its system and although they were similar in overall > > appearance, thery were different in design and details. > > > > For modeling truss bridges on the PRR, I would recommend using a truss > > having large bulky members making up the truss. The Pennsy carried bulk > > commodities such as coal and ore and knew the importance of having heavy > > duty bridges on its rail lines. > > > > Off the top of my head, I think that there are a few HO scale truss bridges > > that would fit in on a PRR layout. Walthers has a double track truss bridge > > which is close to your dimensions (80-90 feet) This bridge, according to > > Walthers, is based on the prototype crossing the Wabash River in Lafayette, > > Indiana. It was used by both the Nickle Plate and NYC. Other bridges that > > would work are Kibri and Plastistruc. > > > > In my opinion, the Central Valley truss bridge, although exquisite, is "too > > small" for the PRR. In other words, the cross sections of the bridge members > > are too small and therefore would not have a high tonnage rating. The > > Campbell Scale Models wooden truss (which I built 20 years ago) is way too > > small and would be good for light loads such as interurban use. > > > > This is just a starting point. You could use these bridges "as is" or > > kitbash them. Another good source are PRR books where you find a bridge or > > type of bridge you want to base you model on. That way, you can get a model > > of a bridge that approximates those on the Pennsy. > > > > I am sort of in a similar situation that you are in. I am modeling a double > > track pony truss on the PRR Fort Wayne Line. It looks like it will be a > > major kitbashing project. > > > > I hope that this helps! > > > > > > Ted Andrews > > Carmel, Indiana > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Viv & Sylvie Brice [mailto:vivbrice@ozemail.com.au] > > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 3:54 AM > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: [PRR] Girder Bridges > > > > G'day Listers, > > I have a bridge to build on my layout, double track with an 80 to 90 feet > > span and about 70 feet above the road below. It almost certainly would be > > suitable for a steel truss bridge of some kind. My question is, did the > > Pennsy have a standard for such bridges, and if so, where would I find it. > > Given my distance from PRR heartland, an on-line resource would be most > > useful. > > > > Viv Brice, another SPF from down under > > PRRT&HS member 6781 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Sep 00 15:21:25 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division --====48545448565656495751===1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply to: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh = division D'OH!!! Absolutely right, Terry. Sorry for any confusion on the list. Before I sent the post, I caught one = example where I got the tracks in the wrong order south to north, but = missed that one (DANGDANGDANGDANGDANG!!!!). If anyone else on PRR-talk caught this and posted the correction, thank = you, too. I'm still catching up on my digests after a long time away from = email and haven't gone through them all. Terry wrote me directly, and = copied the list. Terry, how lucky you and your teammates were to have a friendly employee = that let you witness the still-mighty Pennsy from his tower domain, even = in the November of its years. I'm envious! I can't imagine this happening = today, assuming that there were still manned towers to visit. = There was an operator in that vicinity who used to write for Model = Railroader. Articles such as how to scratchbuild a fleet of PRR work cars. = This was back in the late 50's IIRC. I think his name was "Bill Smith" and = he once worked in DR tower, Derry, though I imagine towermen got bumped = around by others with more seniority. -- Doug Drew Terry Brentzel wrote: >Doug, > >A minor clarification regarding your post from last wednesday. You >stated..... > >> At CP, the assigned routings were switched once again for the >> approaches to Pitcairn yard, where #1 was WB pass.; #2 EB pass.; #3 WB >> freight; and #4 EB freight. This was to route the passenger mains out >> of the way of freights waiting to enter, or exiting Pitcairn yard. >> These assignments retained until R tower at East Pittsburgh, where the >> passenger trains again were routed to the 1 and 4 tracks, and freights >> to the two inside tracks. I assume this was to position freights to >> access Wilkensburg yard, and to keep commuter trains on the outside >> mains for ease of access to the smaller commuter stations along the >> line. > >I believe normal routing from CP in Larimer to R at E. Pittsburgh was: >#1 EB freight, #2 WB freight, #3 EB pass and #4 WB pass. Your assumption >regarding this rerouting of traffic at CP and R so as to allow easier >freight access to and from Pitcairn yard is correct. > >My little and pony league baseball home field was immediately adjacent >to CP tower in Larimer. There, a very kind tower operator >(unfortunately, his name long forgotten) allowed several of us budding >railfans to get a drink of water and, more importantly, access to the >second floor to watch the (what in the late 50's / early 60's seemed to >be an) endless parade of trains. Today, the tower of course is 29 years >(razed early summer of 1971) long gone and the ball field now is home to >fifty foot maple and oak trees in the outfield. > >Terry Brentzel >Washington D.C. >(former resident of Irwin, PA) --====48545448565656495751===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 

         Reply to:   Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh =

division
D'OH!!!

Absolutely = right, Terry.

Sorry for any confusion = on the list. Before I sent the post, I caught = one example where I got the tracks in the = wrong order south to north, but missed that = one (DANGDANGDANGDANGDANG!!!!).

If = anyone else on PRR-talk caught this and posted = the correction, thank you, too. I'm still = catching up on my digests after a long time = away from email and haven't gone through = them all. Terry wrote me directly, and copied = the list.

Terry, how lucky you and = your teammates were to have a friendly employee = that let you witness the still-mighty Pennsy = from his tower domain, even in the November = of its years. I'm envious! I can't imagine = this happening today, assuming that there = were still manned towers to visit.

There = was an operator in that vicinity who used = to write for Model Railroader. Articles = such as how to scratchbuild a fleet of PRR = work cars. This was back in the late 50's = IIRC. I think his name was "Bill Smith" = and he once worked in DR tower, Derry, though = I imagine towermen got bumped around by = others with more seniority.

-- Doug = Drew

Terry Brentzel wrote:
>Doug,
>
>A minor = clarification regarding your post from last = wednesday. You
>stated.....
>
>> = At CP, the assigned routings were switched = once again for the
>> approaches = to Pitcairn yard, where #1 was WB pass.; = #2 EB pass.; #3 WB
>> freight; and = #4 EB freight. This was to route the passenger = mains out
>> of the way of freights = waiting to enter, or exiting Pitcairn yard.
>> = These assignments retained until R tower = at East Pittsburgh, where the
>> = passenger trains again were routed to the = 1 and 4 tracks, and freights
>> = to the two inside tracks. I assume this was = to position freights to
>> access = Wilkensburg yard, and to keep commuter trains = on the outside
>> mains for ease = of access to the smaller commuter stations = along the
>> line.
>
>I = believe normal routing from CP in Larimer = to R at E. Pittsburgh was:
>#1 EB freight, = #2 WB freight, #3 EB pass and #4 WB pass. = Your assumption
>regarding this rerouting = of traffic at CP and R so as to allow easier
>freight = access to and from Pitcairn yard is correct.
>
>My = little and pony league baseball home field = was immediately adjacent
>to CP tower = in Larimer. There, a very kind tower operator
>(unfortunately, = his name long forgotten) allowed several = of us budding
>railfans to get a drink = of water and, more importantly, access to = the
>second floor to watch the (what = in the late 50's / early 60's seemed to
>be = an) endless parade of trains. Today, the = tower of course is 29 years
>(razed = early summer of 1971) long gone and the = ball field now is home to
>fifty foot = maple and oak trees in the outfield.
>
>Terry = Brentzel
>Washington D.C.
>(former = resident of Irwin, PA) --====48545448565656495751===1-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 15:33:34 -0400 Terry & all, Anybody know of any photos (published or otherwise) of CP in Larimer? Having lived around there as a kid, it'd be nice to model it. Unfortunately, I was too young at the time to have much of an interest in railroad structures, so my memories of CP are less than vivid. Terry, do you remember the old ice cream shop on 993 just east of the bridge and PRR overpass in Larimer? Should've been a must for your pony league team. (Sadly, that shop is long gone, too.) Brian Brooks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Brentzel" To: "Doug Drew" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division > My little and pony league baseball home field was immediately adjacent > to CP tower in Larimer. There, a very kind tower operator > (unfortunately, his name long forgotten) allowed several of us budding > railfans to get a drink of water and, more importantly, access to the > second floor to watch the (what in the late 50's / early 60's seemed to > be an) endless parade of trains. Today, the tower of course is 29 years > (razed early summer of 1971) long gone and the ball field now is home to > fifty foot maple and oak trees in the outfield. > > Terry Brentzel > Washington D.C. > (former resident of Irwin, PA) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 12:43:28 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division --- Doug Drew wrote: > There was an operator in that vicinity who used to > write for Model Railroader. Articles such as how to > scratchbuild a fleet of PRR work cars. This was back > in the late 50's IIRC. I think his name was "Bill > Smith" and he once worked in DR tower, Derry, though > I imagine towermen got bumped around by others with > more seniority. > There were two Smiths in Latrobe (big surprise). Bill Smith was a PRR tower operator, but I believe he was at KR, in Latrobe. Not that he couldn't have worked at DR at one time. Chuck Smith was the guy who did the MR articles on PRR work train cars. He later bought AC Models and used that equipment to go into business as LW Models, making and selling kits based on his scratch-built cars. The LW name was derived from Latrobe Western, his personal model railroad. Bill Smith was the leading light of the Penn-Ligonier Railroad, a club which operated in his garage. The club and the layout still exist, although Bill died 10 or 15 years ago (maybe 20 years ago by now). Chuck formed a model railroad club which met in a house in the Legion-Keener Park in Latrobe. He died rather young in the early '60's, the recreation board had other uses for the land, and that club folded. Ye Olde Huff'n'Puff eventually bought his plans, tooling, etc and for a time distributed the PRR kits. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Sep 00 16:33:57 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Re: Smith and Smith --====49555452485157534952===1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply to: Re: Smith and Smith Well, no wonder I'm confused... imagine, two guys named "Smith" in the = same town! In Rails Northeast, Bob Reid ran a three part feature on the Pittsburgh = division, with trackage maps, photos across the decades, and narrative. In = the section where Derry appeared, there were shots taken from DR (somewhat = poor quality, but I haven't seen many shots of Derry at all), and I could = swear the caption said they were taken by "Bill Smith, long time Derry = tower man". But my RNE's are packed away and I can't check them here at = work. Thanks, SOB... I mean, Sweet Old Bob... ;<) -- Doug Drew robert netzlof wrote: > >--- Doug Drew wrote: > >> There was an operator in that vicinity who used to >> write for Model Railroader. Articles such as how to >> scratchbuild a fleet of PRR work cars. This was back >> in the late 50's IIRC. I think his name was "Bill >> Smith" and he once worked in DR tower, Derry, though >> I imagine towermen got bumped around by others with >> more seniority. >> > = >There were two Smiths in Latrobe (big surprise). Bill >Smith was a PRR tower operator, but I believe he was >at KR, in Latrobe. Not that he couldn't have worked at >DR at one time. > >Chuck Smith was the guy who did the MR articles on PRR >work train cars. He later bought AC Models and used >that equipment to go into business as LW Models, >making and selling kits based on his scratch-built >cars. The LW name was derived from Latrobe Western, >his personal model railroad. > >Bill Smith was the leading light of the Penn-Ligonier >Railroad, a club which operated in his garage. The >club and the layout still exist, although Bill died 10 >or 15 years ago (maybe 20 years ago by now). > >Chuck formed a model railroad club which met in a >house in the Legion-Keener Park in Latrobe. He died >rather young in the early '60's, the recreation board >had other uses for the land, and that club folded. Ye >Olde Huff'n'Puff eventually bought his plans, tooling, >etc and for a time distributed the PRR kits. > > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ --====49555452485157534952===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 

         Reply to:   Re: Smith and Smith
Well, no = wonder I'm confused... imagine, two guys = named "Smith" in the same town!

In = Rails Northeast, Bob Reid ran a three part = feature on the Pittsburgh division, with = trackage maps, photos across the decades, = and narrative. In the section where Derry = appeared, there were shots taken from DR = (somewhat poor quality, but I haven't seen = many shots of Derry at all), and I could = swear the caption said they were taken by = "Bill Smith, long time Derry tower = man". But my RNE's are packed away and = I can't check them here at work.

Thanks, = SOB... I mean, Sweet Old Bob... ;<)

-- = Doug Drew

robert netzlof wrote:
>
>--- Doug = Drew <ddrew@= channing-bete.com> wrote:
><snip>
>> = There was an operator in that vicinity who = used to
>> write for Model Railroader. = Articles such as how to
>> scratchbuild = a fleet of PRR work cars. This was back
>> = in the late 50's IIRC. I think his name = was "Bill
>> Smith" and = he once worked in DR tower, Derry, though
>> = I imagine towermen got bumped around by = others with
>> more seniority.
>>
> =
>There were two Smiths in Latrobe = (big surprise). Bill
>Smith was a PRR = tower operator, but I believe he was
>at = KR, in Latrobe. Not that he couldn't have = worked at
>DR at one time.
>
>Chuck = Smith was the guy who did the MR articles = on PRR
>work train cars. He later bought = AC Models and used
>that equipment = to go into business as LW Models,
>making = and selling kits based on his scratch-built
>cars. = The LW name was derived from Latrobe Western,
>his = personal model railroad.
>
>Bill = Smith was the leading light of the Penn-Ligonier
>Railroad, = a club which operated in his garage. The
>club = and the layout still exist, although Bill = died 10
>or 15 years ago (maybe 20 = years ago by now).
>
>Chuck formed = a model railroad club which met in a
>house = in the Legion-Keener Park in Latrobe. He = died
>rather young in the early '60's, = the recreation board
>had other uses = for the land, and that club folded. Ye
>Olde = Huff'n'Puff eventually bought his plans, = tooling,
>etc and for a time distributed = the PRR kits.
>
>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>Bob = Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do = You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail - Free email = you can access from anywhere!
>http://mail.yahoo.com/ --====49555452485157534952===1-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 16:35:42 -0400 From: Terry Brentzel Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division Derrick, re: Derrick Brashear post of 5-Sep-00 > > It runs in my mind that the branch was originally > > built and operated by a coal company, so as to have a > > non-PRR outlet to the rest of the world. Can't > > remember when or who, though. Penn Gas Coal? > > I know Westmoreland Coal operated in that valley, maybe not that far up it > Correct. It would have been the Westmoreland Coal Co. My maternal grandfather worked as an official for Westmoreland Coal until his death in 1950. I do not ever recall seeing a train or even polished rails on this branch in the late 50's / early 60's. If I remember correctly, this branch was finally torn up in the late 60's. Perhaps 1968 - 1970. I have no idea when it was abandoned. The reason for the mental benchmark is that this removal was performed very soon after I received my driver's license (Did any of you know that Pennsylvania permitted operation of a motor vehicle as early as 6 years of age at that time? - OK, "bad" joke). Several times a week I traveled PA Rt. 993 which crossed the Youghiogheny branch in Irwin, PA between Larimer and Irwin to work at my fathers grocery store. PA Rt. 993 roughly parallels the PRR mainline from Manor, PA to Trafford, PA. I say roughly because the rolling topography causes the highway to take a rather circuitous route as compared to the "relatively" straight PRR mainline. I have not checked any reliable references, but I believe the ought track diverged from the #1 track a short distance east of Irwin at or near Shafton.. Also, there was a very small yard - two or three set-out tracks is perhaps a more accurate description - immediately below the location of the Irwin passenger station area which itself sat on a fill created by the PRR as part of an early 1900's improvement project. This is precisely where the "Yough" branch diverged from the the mainline, crossed Brush Creek on a simple girder span bridge and began is southward meandering towards it's namesake river (which it never actually reached). Please allow another anecdote while I continue to reminisce. Prior to 18-wheeled freight conveyance to my father's retail and wholesale grocery in Irwin, forty foot box cars were set out in the aforementioned "yard" in Irwin with LCL deliveries for local merchants. Most of our deliveries were made this way through the early 60's. We would park adjacent to the boxcar door, and transload our portion of the contents across a ramp to our truck. I do not remember if a PRR agent was working in the immediate vicinity or even if the Irwin freight station was still actively in use at that time. (Does anybody know when it's operation ceased or when it was razed?) But, I do remember we ourselves opened and closed the boxcar door and were "unsupervised" while unloading our portion of the lading. This was done totally on the honor system. We took that which was ours and only ours. Something not likely to happen today even is such a service still existed. Terry Brentzel Washington D.C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 11:38:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Trenton Cutoff bridge over Schuylkill River? In conjunction with a PA Turnpike bridge widening project I recall "something" was being done to the Trenton Cutoff bridge over the Schuylkill. Does anyone from out that way know if the Pennsy-era steel truss was removed, or replaced, or something else? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:01:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Terry Brentzel wrote: > I do not ever recall seeing a train or even polished rails on this > branch in the late 50's / early 60's. If I remember correctly, this > branch was finally torn up in the late 60's. Perhaps 1968 - 1970. I The ought track which was the original main, or the remains of the Yough branch up to Cereal? I have maps which show it up the Tinkers Creek valley into the 70s, but at the moment the people who I know who live up near Hahntown aren't around for me to ask. > have no idea when it was abandoned. The reason for the mental benchmark > is that this removal was performed very soon after I received my > driver's license (Did any of you know that Pennsylvania permitted > operation of a motor vehicle as early as 6 years of age at that time? - > OK, "bad" joke). Several times a week I traveled PA Rt. 993 which > crossed the Youghiogheny branch in Irwin, PA between Larimer and Irwin > to work at my fathers grocery store. PA Rt. 993 roughly parallels the Which grocery store? > PRR mainline from Manor, PA to Trafford, PA. I say roughly because the > rolling topography causes the highway to take a rather circuitous route > as compared to the "relatively" straight PRR mainline. (I live in Trafford.) Part of 993, from just east of Trafford to the curve in Ardara, is on the original PRR R/W. > I have not checked any reliable references, but I believe the ought > track diverged from the #1 track a short distance east of Irwin at or > near Shafton.. Also, there was a very small yard - two or three set-out Just west of the Shafton bridge, the right of way survives. At the Irwin end the former right of way is entered from a tunnel just east of the north portal of the Main St underpass under the elevated later (current) alignment. The tunnel runs northwest-southeast under the tracks and connects to the old right of way. It appears the tunnel at one time connected to a branch or company line running north up that valley, which I seem to recall is the one Paintertown Road runs up. Nothing obvious in that valley but it was presumably either a logging or a coal branch/line. > tracks is perhaps a more accurate description - immediately below the > location of the Irwin passenger station area which itself sat on a fill > created by the PRR as part of an early 1900's improvement project. This > is precisely where the "Yough" branch diverged from the the mainline, > crossed Brush Creek on a simple girder span bridge and began is > southward meandering towards it's namesake river (which it never > actually reached). Well, the girder span was just west of that underpass, at what's now "Productivity Drive"; Half the girder span stood a few years ago, and there's still a "hump" on 993 where it crossed those tracks. It joined with the Sewickley (Creek?) Branch coming down from near Greensburg via Herminie, and that came out just shy of the river, apparently at a junction with the B&O near Cowansburg. Triumph I has some info/pictures on this stuff; The pictures, at least, can be believed. My copy's upstairs, I'll go look later. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 17:02:16 -0400 From: Terry Brentzel Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division Brian, Your query has prompted me to refer to the (much) maligned "Triumph I" as I knew it contains a photo of CP tower. The top of page 317 has a very good photograph credited to Edward H. Weber and dated 22-Nov-60. The era is correct even if the date is not as this is exactly how I remember it and the (I think) Chevy is about the right vintage as well. Regarding what your comment on your then lack of interest in railroad structures, how I wish I had spent some time at Pitcairn Yard before it's precipitous decline! As for the ice cream shop, sure I remember it! Terry Brentzel Washington D.C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Sep 00 17:38:50 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] excess garbage attached to my emails Reply to: excess garbage attached to my emails My apologies to the list for the HTML junk that our email server seems to attach to all outgoing messages, including the ones to PRR-talk. I was rather sickened to see how much extra stuff our Microsoft Mail Server attaches to my emails. I can't find a way to turn it off in my client, so I assume it's good old Microsoft assuming it knows better than I do, what I want to send in an email... If anyone knows how to make MIME adjustments in a QuickMail for Mac client (at least, I think that's what the problem is), please contact me off the list. Thanks. Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 19:35:13 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Highway history Patrick Rieger wrote: > > As far as the PRR demise goes, remember that nearly all railroads failed > > mostly becuase of the interstate highway system and the truck and > > automobile. Welllll The RRs never made any money on passenger service. With rofits from freight to subsidize and shipper execs travelling by rail (to be impressed with smoth operation) passenger serice went on. When the execs switched to road an air... >> The federal goverment set out to develop the interstate highway >> system to improve defense > They were also built to evacuate cities in case of attack. Now, does > anybody think the highways would be successful in doing the job they > were built to do? Perhaps. Tho its the first I've heard of it. And i date back to _before_ the interstate system was dreamt of. Someone has alluded to Col. Eisenhower having been in command of an experimental Army truck movement ca 1930. The SAME General Eisenhower saw the German Autobahn system, and could judge it's value or otherwise to logistics. > One look at rush hour tells me no. Now. With doubling or whatever of the auto population since the roads were designed, and people living more out of the cities. Does not apply to the original design criteria. Another peice of the puzzle (from a vintage 1955 TRAINS mag, when the debate was in full swing. The RRs applied to DoD for dubsidy, as DoD wanted excess passenger cars kept on inventory for moving troops. RRs did not get the subsidy, lacking which, with declining freight revenue (gummint fixed rates) and declining passenger revenues (gummint subsidized highways and airways), they scrapped the rail cars, so.... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] ORER CD from Westerfield Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 17:12:18 -0700 Teichmoeler frequently refers to the ORER in his book and mentions that Westerfield has them for the PRR on CD. I checked it out on the Westerfield WEB page but I am still unclear what these have to offer. Can someone explain what these are? Do they include photos or diagrams or are they just list of car classes and numbers? Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Special interest Renovo Shops and Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:26:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division In a message dated 9/5/00 2:25:05 PM Central Daylight Time, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: << Terry, how lucky you and your teammates were to have a friendly employee that let you witness the still-mighty Pennsy from his tower domain, even in the November of its years. I'm envious! I can't imagine this happening today, assuming that there were still manned towers to visit. >> Things may have changed since the latest round of mergers, but until a few years ago, the midwest was a little more hospitable in that respect than the Northeast--I know of at least two towers in the greater Chicago area where the 12 inch to the foot railroaders were very friendly to some railfans, and I have recently ridden a turntable myself. Names withheld to protect the employees from the liability lawyers. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 20:32:45 -0400 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Highway history > Perhaps. Tho its the first I've heard of it. And i date back > to _before_ the interstate system was dreamt of. Someone has > alluded to Col. Eisenhower having been in command of an > experimental Army truck movement ca 1930. The SAME General > Eisenhower saw the German Autobahn system, and could judge it's > value or otherwise to logistics. I learned this from a long time transportation planner here in Cincinnati. If it were to be used to evacuate cities and suburbia, I don't think it'll work, I've been in many highway traffic jams without the entire population on them. As for the more historical possibilities, many of the older highways (early 60s) were outdated already since they were designed in the 50s based on 40s standards. Now back to the PRR. Patrick -- =========================================================================== " My heart is warm with the friends I make, And better friends I'll not be knowing; Yet there isn't a train I wouldn't take, No matter where it's going." -Edna St. Vincent Millay, Travel, 1921 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick Volunteer, The Railway Museum of Greater Cincinnati (formerly Railway Exposition Company), Latonia, Kentucky PRRT&HS #6713 ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] ORER CD from Westerfield Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 20:53:14 -0400 Greg: ORER stands for "Official Railway Equipment Register", which has been issued quarterly since 1912, by order of the ICC while it existed. It lists the "numbers, capacities and dimensions" of cars and includes no diagrams or photographs. It only gives the principal dimensions, mainly the "inside' dimensions, which is what the shipping public is interested in. It is of great help in determining correct car numbers for decaling and whether or not a specific car existed in a particular quarter year, although cars might no longer show in it if reduced to non-revenue (work train) service. Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stone" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 8:12 PM Subject: [PRR] ORER CD from Westerfield > Teichmoeler frequently refers to the ORER in his book and mentions that > Westerfield has them for the PRR on CD. I checked it out on the Westerfield > WEB page but I am still unclear what these have to offer. Can someone > explain what these are? Do they include photos or diagrams or are they just > list of car classes and numbers? > Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > Special interest Renovo Shops and Yards > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 21:15:44 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] ORER CD from Westerfield Greetings to Gregg and the List: One additional note: What makes it especially valuable to PRR fans is that the PRR freight car class is noted for each number-group. Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Isaiah 26:8 Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Greg: > > ORER stands for "Official Railway Equipment Register", which has been issued > quarterly since 1912, by order of the ICC while it existed. It lists the > "numbers, capacities and dimensions" of cars and includes no diagrams or > photographs. > It only gives the principal dimensions, mainly the "inside' dimensions, > which is what the shipping public is interested in. It is of great help in > determining correct car numbers for decaling and whether or not a specific > car existed in a particular quarter year, although cars might no longer show > in it if reduced to non-revenue (work train) service. > > Gregg Mahlkov > http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg Stone" > To: "PRR talk" > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 8:12 PM > Subject: [PRR] ORER CD from Westerfield > > > Teichmoeler frequently refers to the ORER in his book and mentions that > > Westerfield has them for the PRR on CD. I checked it out on the > Westerfield > > WEB page but I am still unclear what these have to offer. Can someone > > explain what these are? Do they include photos or diagrams or are they > just > > list of car classes and numbers? > > Greg Stone > > PRRT&HS member > > Special interest Renovo Shops and Yards > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PC-Buff@webtv.net Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 21:52:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] map Can anyone help me with locating a map of the Sunbury Pa. area from around 1965 to 1972? Im doing some modeling (Laying track) and I would like to show my son what tracks were in Sunbury when I was a youngster..Thanks for any help John MP 258 (SF) Sunbury Pa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SAMRENOSRP@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 22:15:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] prr track diagrams Hi folks, Does anyone know of a site that has detailed track routes around Phila and the suburbs, and up toward Reading? I am designing a HO railroad based on PRR and would like some close up ideas for switching and passenger terminals to model. Thanks Sam ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:25:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Cutoff bridge over Schuylkill River? In a message dated 00-09-05 23:16:57 EDT, you write: << Hasn't the catenary itself been removed? If so, I wonder why they bothered and didn't just take down the poles. >> Derrick the trolley wire is gone but the 132,000 transmission lines on top are still intact and being used. It's a shame that CR pulled the plug on the cat back in 1981 as with the dereg of electric utilities more and more are looking for means of transmission and the network of poles from Harrisburg to NY would have generated some much needed $. to help keep the electrification alive. --------- Ken McCorry--------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:29:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Trenton Cutoff bridge over Schuylkill River? On Wed, 6 Sep 2000 KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 00-09-05 23:16:57 EDT, you write: > > << Hasn't the catenary itself been removed? If so, I wonder why they bothered > and didn't just take down the poles. >> > Derrick the trolley wire is gone but the 132,000 transmission lines on top > are still intact and being used. It's a shame that CR pulled the plug on the > cat back in 1981 as with the dereg of electric utilities more and more are > looking for means of transmission and the network of poles from Harrisburg to > NY would have generated some much needed $. to help keep the electrification > alive. --------- Ken McCorry--------- Right, I keep forgetting about that Thanks -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jason Myers" Subject: [PRR] Webpage Updated Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 00:25:33 -0500 Hello everyone I've updated my webpage alittle I have added some IC, BN, BNSF, CSX, and some railroad tower photo's to. http://jasonstrainpics.homestead.com/ Jason Myers St Elmo Illinois CP 158 CSX STL line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 04:28:23 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Terry Brentzel wrote: > > Nothing obvious in > that valley but it was presumably either a logging > or a coal branch/line. > My vote would be for coal, and more specifically for a line owned by Penn Gas Coal, which seemed to be The Power in those parts. > It joined with the Sewickley (Creek?) Branch coming > down from near > Greensburg via Herminie, and that came out just shy > of the river, > apparently at a junction with the B&O near > Cowansburg. Wasn't that the Hempfield Branch? (Could be CR or PC changed the name.) That junction with the B&O (at Gratztown?) was the "non-PRR outlet" to which I alluded yesterday. Unfortunately I haven't turned up the book I thought told about the coal co. building what became the Youghiogheny Branch. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 08:50:09 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges There is a very nice, clear explanation of Cooper and his loading system with famous bridge examples in William Middleton's new book, "Landmarks of the Iron Road" (IU Press, available from Amazon and others). He gives examples of bridges, tunnels, and other engineering feats including the Enola yard (required PRR content) through out the book. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Routing of trains over the Pittsburgh division Date: Wed, 6 Sep 100 08:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Bobspf@aol.com scribit: > > << Terry, how lucky you and your teammates were to have a friendly employee > that let you witness the still-mighty Pennsy from his tower domain, even in > the November of its years. I'm envious! I can't imagine this happening today, > assuming that there were still manned towers to visit. >> > > Things may have changed since the latest round of mergers, but until a few > years ago, the midwest was a little more hospitable in that respect than the > Northeast--I know of at least two towers in the greater Chicago area where > the 12 inch to the foot railroaders were very friendly to some railfans, and > I have recently ridden a turntable myself. Names withheld to protect the > employees from the liability lawyers. Gents, I have found the overwhelming majority of towermen to be very friendly. I'll withhold names as well, to protect them not from liability lawyers, but from those supervisors who are pedantic and less understanding, but I've managed to visit somewhere around 200 towers, and have the pictures to prove it. That 200 includes 140 or so former PRR towers, many of these in the Northeast. Trouble is, the towers I've visited that are still standing and in use can be counted on the fingers of both hands, with maybe a foot thrown in for good measure. -- "Mark B." Tower Visiters Anonymous 12-step program graduate, lapsed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 09:00:42 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Highway history For an example of how well the interstates work for evacuation, think back to Charleston, SC and Hurricane Floyd. Average travel time to Columbia, SC, 125 or so miles on I-26 was about 10 hours. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Electrification, was: Trenton Cutoff bridge Date: Wed, 6 Sep 100 09:21:26 -0400 (EDT) > > In a message dated 00-09-05 23:16:57 EDT, you write: > > Hasn't the catenary itself been removed? If so, I wonder why they bothered > > and didn't just take down the poles. KEMACPRR@aol.com scribit: > Derrick the trolley wire is gone but the 132,000 transmission lines on top > are still intact and being used. It's a shame that CR pulled the plug on the > cat back in 1981 as with the dereg of electric utilities more and more are > looking for means of transmission and the network of poles from Harrisburg to > NY would have generated some much needed $. to help keep the electrification > alive. --------- Ken McCorry--------- I doubt that would have helped. My understanding -- i.e. what I was told by real railroaders -- is that it went something like this: 0) PRR put transmission wires where it made the most sense at the time. They did not try to segregate "passenger track" feeders from "freight track" feeders, since they had no expectation that the trackage in question would ever be owned by anyone but PRR. As one example, the passenger main from Landisville (Lancaster) to Harrisburg is fed from both ends by transmission lines that run on freight trackage (A&S, Cumb. Vly. bridge). (This per Power Directors in Harrisburg.) 1) Conrail and Amtrak split. 1a) Note that originally, CR had the passenger main line from Parkesburg to Harrisburg, not Amtrak, which does not make much sense. 1b) Also note that Amtrak always owned all tracks from PARK to THORN (Parkesburg to Thorndale), even though they only needed 2, just like they had west of there. Does anyone know for sure who had the yard at Thorndale? 1c) After the PARK-HARRIS transfer, Amtrak owned #3 track from ROY to Harrisburg, which only after a bunch of years was (sensibly) sold back to Conrail for freight use. 2) Amtrak at some point, 1980ish, decides to charge Conrail an arm and a leg per car-mile for trackage rights. 32 c/car-mile sticks in my mind. I was told this was some 2-3 times the going rate. 3) Conrail looks for ways to avoid Amtrak. This means taking a Reading branch (Lebanon Valley Branch) and upgrading it to main line status. This is done, and Conrail shifts its traffic over to RDG. 4) Only traffic left on Amtrak ex-PRR is very fast stuff like mail trains and locals. 5) Note that trains from Enola to the east had to traverse Amtrak from PARK to THORN. Plus there was one section of the Low Grade that had a very slow speed restriction due to falling rocks. Plus Conrail is in a downsizing mood. 5a) Trains to NY could then use the (Conrail, electrified) Trenton Cutoff, but then had to get back on Amtrak at MORRIS (Morrisville, Pa.) and the Corridor. 5b) Trains to Philly had to stay on Amtrak all the way to ZOO, whereas Conrail has an old Reading connection to ZOO. (My understanding is that this connection started being upgraded very early in Conrail.) 5c) Trains to Balto/Wash could run on PRR (A&S, then Port Road) but again had to get on Amtrak rails from Perryville south. Finally, realize that the Reading was not electrified until Norristown, and that only its passenger main (left, or northeast bank of the Schuylkill) was electrified, and that the freight main (other bank, including ZOO connection) was not. This completes the picture. One need not be a Wharton School graduate to realize that it's cheaper to put trains on the Reading, though there was a temporary (permanent?) performance hit that went with this decision. And that decision meant that electric engines were not needed nearly as much, if at all. And that the Low Grade could be abandoned, and the Trenton Cutoff cut back, particularly after a rebuilt connnection to the Reading main was put in. That left the Port Road as the only decently long stretch of electrified trackage that Conrail owned. Much as I like electrification, I can't say I would have made any different decisions. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 06:23:25 -0700 I actually got my explanation from an very old copy of the AMERICAN CIVIL ENGINEER'S HANDBOOK (John H. Wiley and Sons,1920) which I picked up at an used book store for this very reason. I picked this up for two reasons...1) Railroad engineering was at it's peak in the 1920's and actually hasn't changed that much since...well, actually it has in the past 30 years or so, but this is a snapshot of how it was done in the golden years. And 2) since I am an CE, it lets me see how some other approaches were done in the field. Of course, it is a valuable resource for design. Bill Daniels ----- Original Message ----- From: James L. McDaniel To: Bill Daniels Cc: Andy Miller ; Andrews, Ted ; ; PRR-Talk Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges > There is a very nice, clear explanation of Cooper and his loading system > with famous bridge examples in William Middleton's new book, "Landmarks > of the Iron Road" (IU Press, available from Amazon and others). He > gives examples of bridges, tunnels, and other engineering feats > including the Enola yard (required PRR content) through out the book. > Jim McDaniel > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:19:34 -0400 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Newberry photos Looking for photos of Newberry tower and junction in the 1950's. Can anyone on the list direct me to a book or source? Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:19:19 -0400 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] PRR/NYC on the Elmira Branch According to Caloroso's book, the PRR and NYC had some sort of run through arrangement into Southport Yard in Elmira. Can anyone on the list elaborate more on these operations and or head me in the right direction to find out more about it such as the correct NYC ETT or other source? Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Bowser T1 Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 12:36:31 EDT Group, Finally getting by Bowser T1 completed and I was test running it last night. I was getting an occasional spark from one of the tender wheels, has anyone had this happen and how have you corrected it? I tried bending the brake shoe away from the wheel but that didn't help. Thanks in advance Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: [PRR] Trenton Cutoff traffic Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:35:46 -0700 I didn't see any responses to an earlier post: What determined whether Trenton Cutoff traffic would connect to the main at Glen or use the P&T to Thorn? Likewise, what would determine whether traffic would use the A&S from Park or the Columbia branch from Cork to get to Enola? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Electrification, was: Trenton Cutoff bridge Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 09:33:26 -0700 Actually, some of the poles have been partially removed. In a section near the Norristown interchange of the PA turnpike, the poles have been cut off halfway up. John > ---------- > From: Mark Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 6:25 AM > To: KEMACPRR@aol.com > Cc: shadow@dementia.org; PRR-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Electrification, was: Trenton Cutoff bridge > > > > In a message dated 00-09-05 23:16:57 EDT, you write: > > > Hasn't the catenary itself been removed? If so, I wonder why they > bothered > > > and didn't just take down the poles. > > KEMACPRR@aol.com scribit: > > Derrick the trolley wire is gone but the 132,000 transmission lines on > top > > are still intact and being used. It's a shame that CR pulled the plug > on the > > cat back in 1981 as with the dereg of electric utilities more and more > are > > looking for means of transmission and the network of poles from > Harrisburg to > > NY would have generated some much needed $. to help keep the > electrification > > alive. --------- Ken McCorry--------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR M1 at Renovo and lots more Greg, List Greg, a week or so ago you asked if anyone had specific loco numbers for M Class locos that worked Renovo. I am not sure if you are looking for M1 M1a or M1b's. But I looked at my photo collection last night and I found M1 6981 at Renovo Pa. on 6-27-53. Looks like it may be in the storage line at this time period. I also found H9 5052, C1 6636, L1 4030, L1 3648, I1sa 4265 and I1sa 4230 at Renovo. I also want to take this time to announce the completion of my new PRR K4s Webpages. It can be accessed here: http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 It has been a long time coming but I was able to complete it recently. Please be sure to bookmark it for future references. I also added a dozen or so more model pics on my other website. Just look for the "new" gif. I also included some vintage P&LE pics. They can be seen here: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY Enjoy the sites!!!! .......Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L Subject: [PRR] MP-54 Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:18:24 -0500 Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these from P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to be done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for any info. J. Hildenbrand A T55TS&BS Society Member ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 14:44:33 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 I'm afraid its not that easy. A detailed examination will show that there is little in common between a P70 and an MP54. First, by definition, the P70 is 16 feet longer. The P70's windows are paired while those on the MP54 are tripled. The roof height as well as the overall height is lower on the MP54. The trucks are substantially different. And the list goes on... Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L wrote: > > Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these from > P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to be > done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for any > info. > > J. Hildenbrand > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 15:14:08 -0500 I guess it looks like a scratchbuild job then ! At least I have a pair of trucks to start with, but I only have few pictures, not much to help for modeling. Do you know were I can get drawings and/or detailed specs? This will be my next project after the T-1 I'll be starting in Oct. Thanks, J. Hildenbrand A T55TS&BS Society Member -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:45 PM To: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 I'm afraid its not that easy. A detailed examination will show that there is little in common between a P70 and an MP54. First, by definition, the P70 is 16 feet longer. The P70's windows are paired while those on the MP54 are tripled. The roof height as well as the overall height is lower on the MP54. The trucks are substantially different. And the list goes on... Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L wrote: > > Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these from > P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to be > done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for any > info. > > J. Hildenbrand > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:26:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 In a message dated 9/6/00 3:24:26 PM Central Daylight Time, HildenbrandJL@mfr.usmc.mil writes: << I guess it looks like a scratchbuild job then ! At least I have a pair of trucks to start with, but I only have few pictures, not much to help for modeling. >> Isn't someone producing or planning to produce a plastic model or sides, or did I dream that? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 16:59:34 -0400 Greetings:- What scale do you model in? For years, Walthers made a kit for a PRR MP54 in HO, with wood floor and roof, diecast ends and details, and stamped steel sides. It was one of the last of this type kits introduced, so some may still be lurking our there. If you are in N, Kato makes a Japanese prototype coach that has right dimensions, even the right triple window spacing. These were sold as "dining cars" by Con-Cor and even came lettered PRR. Kato once made a Japanese subway car that had a sincle truck drive with truck very similar to those used on MP54's. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L" To: "'Andy Miller'" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 4:14 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 > I guess it looks like a scratchbuild job then ! At least I have a pair of > trucks to start with, but I only have few pictures, not much to help for > modeling. Do you know were I can get drawings and/or detailed specs? This > will be my next project after the T-1 I'll be starting in Oct. > > Thanks, > > J. Hildenbrand > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:45 PM > To: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L > Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 > > > I'm afraid its not that easy. A detailed examination will show that > there is little in common between a P70 and an MP54. First, by > definition, the P70 is 16 feet longer. The P70's windows are paired > while those on the MP54 are tripled. The roof height as well as the > overall height is lower on the MP54. The trucks are substantially > different. And the list goes on... > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L wrote: > > > > Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these from > > P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to be > > done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for > any > > info. > > > > J. Hildenbrand > > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:01:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C01845.95328520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, While on vacation, this past two weeks, a day was set aside for = train watchin'. After travelling 20 odd miles to Pgh's North Side, = within sight of the old Island Avenue intermodal yard, was an open lot. = The nearest tracks were between 50 and 60 feet from Beaver Avenue,.with = the mainline,elevated and another 100-125 feet further away. So I = wheel in, and park. Right between the east and west legs of the Ohio = Connecting Brige over the Ohio River.( For those who don't know the = area, these legs are elvated at this point, at about 40' overhead) As I = get out of the car I look for signs, Like private property, no = trepassing, etc. None to be seen. The area is basically deserted, even = at 11 am. After being there for ten minutes, you know just long enough = to get the camera out, this cop in a Blazer pulls in. Asks what I'm = doing; Here I am with camera in hand and probably looking like "Who = me?". As I take the time to now read the insignia on the door, it's NS = police, not the city of Pgh. Whereupon he tells me I'm on private = property and can't stay there to take photos, and no don't ask me where = in the area I can. Well, I'm all set to give this guy a line like "Well = where's the signs... but that little voice in my head says "put a sock = in it, say okay, and hit the road" So, I leave with him waiting till I = do. Oh yes one other thing he did say "I won't put you in the computer = this time." The officer was couteous, but still very serious. Now if = there are any of you,who have any doubts about NS and railfans Be = Warned. They do have a computer database of trespassers and they will = prosecute and fine us. And the pictures are not worth the fines or the = hassle in court or the little notation in the police files. . For me, I = will not be near NS property anytime soon. Jim Lash =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C01845.95328520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List, While on vacation,  this = past two=20 weeks, a day was set aside for train watchin'.  After travelling 20 = odd=20 miles to Pgh's North Side, within sight of  the old Island Avenue=20 intermodal yard, was an open lot.  The nearest tracks were between = 50 and=20 60 feet from Beaver Avenue,.with the mainline,elevated and another = 100-125 feet=20 further away.   So I wheel in, and park.  Right between = the east=20 and west legs of the Ohio Connecting Brige over the Ohio River.( For = those who=20 don't know the area, these legs are elvated at this point, at about 40'=20 overhead)  As I get out of the car I look for signs, Like private = property,=20 no trepassing, etc.  None to be seen.  The area is basically = deserted,=20 even at 11 am.  After being there for ten minutes, you know just = long=20 enough to get the camera out,  this cop in a Blazer pulls in.  = Asks=20 what I'm doing; Here I am with camera in hand and probably looking = like =20 "Who me?".  As I take the time to now read the insignia = on the=20 door, it's NS police, not the city of Pgh.  Whereupon he tells me = I'm on=20 private property and can't stay there to take photos, and no don't ask = me where=20 in the area I can.  Well, I'm all set to give this guy a line like=20 "Well where's the signs...   but that little voice in my = head=20 says "put a sock in it, say okay, and hit the = road"   So, I=20 leave with him waiting till I do.   Oh yes one other thing he = did say=20 "I won't put you in the computer this time."  The officer = was=20 couteous, but still very serious.   Now if  there are any = of=20 you,who have any doubts about  NS and railfans  Be = Warned.  =20 They do have a computer database of trespassers and they will prosecute = and fine=20 us. And the pictures are not worth the fines or the hassle in court or = the=20 little notation in the police files.  . For me, I will not be near = NS=20 property anytime soon.      Jim Lash =20
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C01845.95328520-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 18:28:31 -0700 Trainstuff LLC makes resin MP-54 baggage, combines, and coaches in HO scale complete with trucks and pantographs. Prices are $125 powered and $75 for dummy coaches. They come already built. Check out Dayna's website at http://www.trainstuffllc.com/index2.html . Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 01:30:07 GMT I don't know if this list has been down the NS police road before but to Jim's point, they usually do not take any prisoners. After years of no run-ins with the NS police, I was busted while visiting Cincinnati this past winter at a former CR location that my friend swore was an "OK" place to shoot. No mercy, in the computer you go. I too, have been very careful while around NS property since the bust. There is, however, nothing they can do when you are on public property. BTW jim, there is a great shot off a public street on the hillside that looks right down the gut of the OC bridge. I had a great talk with the pastor of the local church one Saturday morning while shooting CR trains back in 5-99. The drawback is you can't see westbounds on the Ft Wayne Line and its not a very good shot of the eastbounds. Still, good results, public property, no hassles. Steve >From: "S J Lash" >To: "PRR-Talk" >CC: "Jim Falcsik" <76613.1440@compuserve.com> >Subject: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:01:10 -0400 > >List, While on vacation, this past two weeks, a day was set aside for >train watchin'. After travelling 20 odd miles to Pgh's North Side, within >sight of the old Island Avenue intermodal yard, was an open lot. The >nearest tracks were between 50 and 60 feet from Beaver Avenue,.with the >mainline,elevated and another 100-125 feet further away. So I wheel in, >and park. Right between the east and west legs of the Ohio Connecting >Brige over the Ohio River.( For those who don't know the area, these legs >are elvated at this point, at about 40' overhead) As I get out of the car >I look for signs, Like private property, no trepassing, etc. None to be >seen. The area is basically deserted, even at 11 am. After being there >for ten minutes, you know just long enough to get the camera out, this cop >in a Blazer pulls in. Asks what I'm doing; Here I am with camera in hand >and probably looking like "Who me?". As I take the time to now read the >insignia on the door, it's NS police, not the city of Pgh. Whereupon he >tells me I'm on private property and can't stay there to take photos, and >no don't ask me where in the area I can. Well, I'm all set to give this >guy a line like "Well where's the signs... but that little voice in my >head says "put a sock in it, say okay, and hit the road" So, I leave with >him waiting till I do. Oh yes one other thing he did say "I won't put you >in the computer this time." The officer was couteous, but still very >serious. Now if there are any of you,who have any doubts about NS and >railfans Be Warned. They do have a computer database of trespassers and >they will prosecute and fine us. And the pictures are not worth the fines >or the hassle in court or the little notation in the police files. . For >me, I will not be near NS property anytime soon. Jim Lash _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:32:56 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] NS property,beware Hi... Gee...i wonder what O.Winton Link would have thought. In a way its a good thing,but also its a shame. Years ago i remember the trains that got "rocked" back home on the NEC (remember the "WHOMP" you would hear when riding the old Metroliners ?)and dad telling me about some kids even putting a refrigerator from up between the ties once somewhere. Perhaps some of it can be blamed on the attitude NS gained during some of its labor troubles years ago. Not to mention insurance issues. Some of the solution would be for NS to designate spots where railfans could go and mark them as such. (but that would cost money) Its sad to see this. Years ago railroads,in spite of being a dangerous industrial place ,were still at least freindlier. Gee when i think of all the places i went and stuff i got into because my dad was a railroader. But time changes things,like everything else. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:56:45 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE >I too, have been very careful while around NS property since the bust. >There is, however, nothing they can do when you are on public property. stories I have heard about the past - taking photos of Union Railroad from public spots, they would call the local police and theywould cite you for loitering... their excuse was that people were shooting out the signals, etc. don't think railfans carry guns.. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:50:29 -0400 Gary, and List, My point in all this, was to use your head.l was only interested that day in getting some picutres of the train on the 'west' leg of the wye. There were no signs, but the officer was courteous and professional, and did not give me a hard time. I have since sent an e-mail to NS via their web site and stated that the property should be marked as best as possible. Yeah, I know, the vandals wil take the signs, etc. but the area is not clearly rail property. That is why I thanked the officer when he stated it was rail property, and left. Thanks for the input Jim -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: S J Lash Date: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Jim, I probably know the NS Police that confronted you. Could have been Kevin. He is a very nice guy and he is a rail fan too, member of the local NRHS. But his job is on the line every day and he takes that very serious. One never knows when NS places "bait" and waits and sees what their employees will do. That is why he will treat all Rail Fans and non Rail Fans alike. And yes they do keep track of who they had stopped in the past. I also know a Rail Fan who was on the "list" prior to actually getting a job with NS. So, keep it leagal as best you can....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:33:00 -0700 From: Doug Edwards Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE List, This attitude is really different from what I experience here in the north west. I have never been given a second glance anywhere I have gone. In Spokane, I on occasion watch trains on the old NP line at the west end of Yardley at a road crossing. The only preference the Bn has is that after dark you watch from the north side of the tracks near where the office is, and not the south side where they have transcient problems. Doug Steve Hipes wrote: > I don't know if this list has been down the NS police road before but to > Jim's point, they usually do not take any prisoners. > > After years of no run-ins with the NS police, I was busted while visiting > Cincinnati this past winter at a former CR location that my friend swore was > an "OK" place to shoot. No mercy, in the computer you go. > > I too, have been very careful while around NS property since the bust. > There is, however, nothing they can do when you are on public property. > > BTW jim, there is a great shot off a public street on the hillside that > looks right down the gut of the OC bridge. I had a great talk with the > pastor of the local church one Saturday morning while shooting CR trains > back in 5-99. The drawback is you can't see westbounds on the Ft Wayne Line > and its not a very good shot of the eastbounds. Still, good results, public > property, no hassles. > > Steve > > >From: "S J Lash" > >To: "PRR-Talk" > >CC: "Jim Falcsik" <76613.1440@compuserve.com> > >Subject: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE > >Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:01:10 -0400 > > > >List, While on vacation, this past two weeks, a day was set aside for > >train watchin'. After travelling 20 odd miles to Pgh's North Side, within > >sight of the old Island Avenue intermodal yard, was an open lot. The > >nearest tracks were between 50 and 60 feet from Beaver Avenue,.with the > >mainline,elevated and another 100-125 feet further away. So I wheel in, > >and park. Right between the east and west legs of the Ohio Connecting > >Brige over the Ohio River.( For those who don't know the area, these legs > >are elvated at this point, at about 40' overhead) As I get out of the car > >I look for signs, Like private property, no trepassing, etc. None to be > >seen. The area is basically deserted, even at 11 am. After being there > >for ten minutes, you know just long enough to get the camera out, this cop > >in a Blazer pulls in. Asks what I'm doing; Here I am with camera in hand > >and probably looking like "Who me?". As I take the time to now read the > >insignia on the door, it's NS police, not the city of Pgh. Whereupon he > >tells me I'm on private property and can't stay there to take photos, and > >no don't ask me where in the area I can. Well, I'm all set to give this > >guy a line like "Well where's the signs... but that little voice in my > >head says "put a sock in it, say okay, and hit the road" So, I leave with > >him waiting till I do. Oh yes one other thing he did say "I won't put you > >in the computer this time." The officer was couteous, but still very > >serious. Now if there are any of you,who have any doubts about NS and > >railfans Be Warned. They do have a computer database of trespassers and > >they will prosecute and fine us. And the pictures are not worth the fines > >or the hassle in court or the little notation in the police files. . For > >me, I will not be near NS property anytime soon. Jim Lash > > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joel Akers" Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 20:50:47 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C01844.21E9FF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe all rr's have a computer database of trespassing violaters. I, = unfortunately, am in the UP database because of a misadventure in North = Platte.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C01844.21E9FF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe all rr's have a computer database of = trespassing=20 violaters. I, unfortunately, am in the UP database because of a = misadventure in=20 North Platte.
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C01844.21E9FF40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 22:21:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges In a message dated 09/05/2000 1:20:32 PM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << The bad news is that I don't know of any reasonable model of a deck truss. >> Hi, What about the Bridgemaster Deck truss, if nothing else it had the heavy members. Definitely a challenge to build. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 23:35:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] MP-54 and MU cars PRR List, The gods must be smiling on you SPF. Our PRR-Talk host (merchandise.pennsyrr.com) has a listing under the Future Products heading for an MP-54 and MU cars kits from Funaro and Camerlengo (sp?). Beat you to the reservation desk!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 00:04:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] Trespassing PRR List, The good old days are gone (or almost gone)! One only has to learn of the increased levels of vandalism and theft to understand the near zero-tolerance policy. You may be a well intentioned railfan but to railroaders you are a potential threat. Yes, you the friendly railfan are guilty until proven otherwise and lately the proven otherwise is of no interest to the authorities. A peculiar property of trains is that they attract flying objects and nowadays that occasionally includes bullets! Kind'a makes the old thunk of a rock on the car side a welcome sound! Be smart -- be safe! Find a public area to railfan from and avoid a legal hassle. Even out here in Denver, Colorado the ways of the old, laidback west are rapidly disappearing. U.P's North Yard (ex-DRG&W) is no longer friendly to the occasional railfan drive through and BNSF yard's yard office parking lot is no longer open to fans wishing to sit in their cars and watch the switching. North Yard is a sure summons for trespassing! Know five people involved in three different impromptu railfan trips through the yard that have contributed generously to the local court for their little forays! UP police just turn you over to the local police. Two of the miscreants were known to the on-duty yardmaster and were still cited! Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 01:03:07 -0400 From: "David (Fresh) Freshwater" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing I'm an Operation Lifesaver presenter. Back when the program started in the early 1970s, the biggest concern was people getting killed and injured at RR crossing. Well, last year was the second year that there were more people killed in this country trespassing on RR property than in collisions at highway-rail grade crossings. But, we're railfans - we're going to be safe. Tell it to the crew of the train out in the Midwest (Missouri, I think) that encountered six railfans out on a bridge taking pictures. 5 of them died (although don't remember from what made the paper here whether the train killed them or they died jumping off.) Or the picture I have from Tehachapi in February, with the railfan standing inside the gauge of the siding 10 seconds before the downgrade train hit the turnout. The engineer probably couldn't guess at that point whether the guy was in the gauge of his track or not. Or me standing up talking to a bunch of Boy Scouts about the kids walking the tracks on the way back from fishing that got killed. And the parent - railfan in the back of the room raises his hand and tells us his story - of setting his camera up in the same area - in the gauge to take a picture of the train due on the other track. And finally realizing that the horn he is hearing is not from the train in his viewfinder, but the one coming from behind him. He got clear, but the loco clipped his tripod as he pulled his camera behind him. Or the RRs, who get sued by the survivors, those who were only injured or of the folks who get killed, because it's a big company and has deep pockets and in America everyone sues. Why do you think the RRs ticket those who get killed? Because a judge threw out the civil case against AMTRAK for wrongful death when the officer who issued the citation appeared in court, said we ticket folks who trespass, even if they do get killed. Of course the RR police are going to enforce the RR's private property rights. Do you let anyone just wander around your yard? Buy a longer lens and shoot your photos from public areas. You don't want to be a number like the 479 killed while trespassing last year. The phot is not worth your life. STAY OFF! STAY AWAY! STAY ALIVE! Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 05:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] The Youghiogheny Branch Through The Ages Spent too much time last night in My Archives, looking for facksual material on the Youghiogheny Branch. In the Valuation Report (Vol. 22, pp 285-301): "Development of Fixed Physical Property ... Acquired by purchase and merger ... From private parties ... Youghiogheny branch, near Shafton, Pa., acquired in 1899, from Penn Gas Coal Co." The 1900 CT1000 lists the whole branch, from Shafton to Gratztown in the Pittsburg Division. The list of locations: 420B Irwin Jct, Main Line 0.0 5900 " Youghiogheny Engine House 1.0 " " Storage 1.2 " " Penn Facing Mill Co. " 5902 Penn Gas Coal Co. Shaft #2 1.3 Hahntown " 5904 Penn Gas Coal Co. Shop Track 1.5 skipping a bunch of place names with no industries 5916 Gratztown 9.8 5918 Penn Gas Coal Co. Shaft #4 9.9 5920 Junction B&O RR 10.2 Note, no Westmoreland Coal Co. anywhere. The CT1000 lists distances from the Altoona Pass. Station, I calculated distances from Main Line. Don't bet anything on their correctness. 1923 CT1000 Irwin had prospered, there are too many entries to list here. To summarize: 5900 Shafton Westmoreland Coal Co. Car Shops 0.2 ... 5901 " Coal Run Siding, P. G. C. Co. 0.9 ... " Penn Facing Mill Co. 2.2 5902 Adams Coll. Westmoreland Coal Co. 2.3 Hahntown Station " 5904 Penn Gas Coal Co. 2.5 5905 Cereal Jersey Cereal Food Co. 3.2 5905A Jct, Pgh and Monon. Div. 3.4 ... 5907 Criterion Coll. W. C. Co. 4.7 ... 5912 Cowansburg Station 8.2 " " Jct, Hempfield Branch " " " Jct, Yukon Br., North conn. 8.3 " " Jct, Yukon Br., South conn. 8.4 5913 Marchand Coll. W. C. Co. 8.7 5914 Penn Gas Coal Co. Delivery 8.9 5914A Lowber Coll. Lowber Gas Coal Co. 9.3 5915 Lowber Station 9.4 5915A Youghiogheny Coll. W. C. Co. 10.2 5916 Gratztown Carload Delivery 10.7 " " Station 10.8 5920 Jct, B&O RR 11.1 Yes, I know the milages aren't the same as in 1900. Maybe the starting point on the main line moved between 1900 and 1923. The 1945 CT1000 has the branch ending just past Cereal, 3.2 miles from the main line. (But the description of the Hempfield Branch says it has a junction with the Yough. Branch at Cowansburg. "The CT1000 is not the Bible one could hope.") I was surprised to see in the 1945 CT1000 that Westmoreland Coal Co. Car Shops were still mentioned. Don't know that they were actually doing anything by then. I don't remember seeing WCCo cars in service back then, but perhaps they all went west from Irwin, eluding my eager gaze out in Latrobe. I had one other reference in mind, but I fear it has been transferred to the Dreaded Basement Division of My Archives. Somewhere, I read that the P. G. C. Co. had built the Yough. Br. so as to avoid being stuck with a single transportation supplier. But that remains unfacksual until I can find the @#$% thing. One other matter emerged. PRR bought the track in 1899. Burgess and Kennedy (page 439) say "Mr. Cassatt began to purchase the stock of this company [B&O] in November, 1899..." and go on to say that by the end of 1901, PRR owned 40% of B&O. WARNING. SPECULATION FOLLOWS. AVERT YOUR EYES, YE FAINT OF HEART. Well golly, PGCCo. builds 10 or 11 miles of RR, connecting PRR on one end with B&O on the other. Comes 1899, PRR buys a big chunk of B&O and that little connector. I wonder if the branch might have been part of a larger plan which, in the end, didn't come off? END SPECULATIVE MATERIAL ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] N-scale MU cars on EBay Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:58:49 -0400 To all: To those of you interested in PRR's Multiple Unit Electric Operations, eBay has an MB62, an MPB54, and a 3 car set of MP54's at auction this morning in N scale at category 486 (N and Z). Search under key words "5 day only - PENNSYLVANIA" and you will access them. Good photos of models. Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:28:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] NS Property beware I had a similar experience at Marysville a couple of months ago. I and about 5 others who were about 12-20 ft from the track were warned along with the 2 morons who had their tripods set up on the roadbed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:11:24 -0500 (CDT) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Jim If you have a telephoto lens you can get some pretty good shots of the OC bridge from a street that is higher than the bridge. For the life of me I can't remember the street name, and I don't have a map with me, so some of you Pgh denizens will have to help out. Seems like I remember the street taking off from at or near the intersection of the McKees Rocks Bridge and Rt. 60. Cross the ?Glenfield Bridge? and head up hill. The OC bridge is plainly visible once you head downslope on the other side of the hill crest. Seems like I remember a park up there where the leg of the Y heads downhill onto the Ft. Wayne - you might not need a telephoto at this spot. You can also get to the site northbound on Rt. 60 from Pittsburgh, but I don't remember the exit off Rt. 60. Jim Lash wrote >List, While on vacation, this past two weeks, a day was set aside for >train watchin'. After travelling 20 odd miles to Pgh's North Side, within >sight of the old Island Avenue intermodal yard, was an open lot. The >nearest tracks were between 50 and 60 feet from Beaver Avenue,.with the >mainline,elevated and another Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:18:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing Fred Rea wrote: I have also heard stories of problems encountered by photographing from public property. The RR police call in the local law enforcement to threaten or charge you with loitering. I heard of this as long ago as near the SP in the '60s. Are any of the List members able to explain what constitutes illegal loitering? It sounds like a great catch all for localities to run off any body they want. I heard from various people about problems not permitting them to photograph the Bush election train from Pittsburgh into Ohio. Many localities were provided with info and had police protecting the road crossings (so there would not be any grade crossing incidents) however, many of those told people that the FBI and/or Secret Service did not want the train photographed. While the train was parked at Station Square, the starting point, many tried to walk from the rear platform where all the activities were happening to get pictures of the train. They were told they could not. The train was such that no one could really safely walk along the train for photos, but they could go to the other end of the parking lot and get the photos of the units. K9 police were there and were observing and I saw many photos taken of the lead units there with no problems, they could not get near the tracks which I can agree with. The railroads are concerned about insurance problems from trespassers which they have a right to be, especially today, and they are also concerned about vandalism - just look at all the graffiti on the cars, which is about the only thing the public can notice, but who knows what people do that we don't know about - messing with equipment, stealing items, etc. The Pennsylvania Railroad is mostly a memory, and so is the way you can photograph trains today. The railroad's concerns are serious since they have a job of running a railroad and not to play host to railfans, many who have ruined the likelihood of others who are cautious, etc. to get thrills that normally are not happening anymore. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing Date: Thu, 7 Sep 100 11:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Gregg Mahlkov scribit: > > It has always been a problem in places. I recall being told I could not > photograph a train from a passenger platform while awaiting a train to New > York City at Harmon, NY on the NYC. The railroad policeman told me it was > against the law to photograph trains, period. I had a ticket so he could not > make me leave the platform, but he told me if he saw me taking a picture he > would confiscate my camera. This was in 1955. It was clearly against the law during the war, for reasons of national security. However, I'd like to know which specific law it is and look it up myself. The tower operator at one ex-PRR NEC tower refused to allow me to take inside pictures, citing the same reasons. That was in 1984 or thereabouts. A friend of mine was in Reading, taking pix of the yard from the sidewalk, when a RR cop told him the same thing, pointing to some signs saying this still tacked onto the chain-link fence. That was also early 1980s. My understanding of the Common Law (I'm surrounded by lawyers in my family, for better or for worse) is that this kind of law would be enforceable during wartime, but would be unconstitutional in peacetime. Of course, in the meantime, while you were proving your case, you could still be fined, maybe jailed, hauled into court, etc., and you would lose some chunk of change and time in the process. Now in the USSR, it was illegal all the time. Any significant public works project could not be photographed (legally), including RRs. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:29:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing From: Jerry Britton On 10/27/39 11:19 AM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: > The tower operator at one ex-PRR NEC tower refused to allow me to take inside > pictures, citing the same reasons. That was in 1984 or thereabouts. > The above would also implicate the tower operator(s) for allowing non-RR personnel onto/into RR property...the "smoking gun", if you will. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:31:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] RPP SD-40's Has anybody built one of these and will it fit an Atearn frame? How is the detail? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:32:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] AEM7 Has anybody painted one of these in a fantasy PRR scheme? I am considering silver with a Tuscan band ala the Congo cars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:33:12 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE They're not REAL NS police, they're ex-CONRAIL NS police. They (like their fellow employees) now work for a corporation that makes itself go by instilling fear of failure in employees. Who cares about photographing NS, anyway? I use color film, not BW. And, lest we forget, CONRAIL had some real G.W. Bush New York Times reporters on its police payroll, too. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:38:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] AEM7 You might want to check out paintshop.railfan.net It is Joshua Moldover's (sp) site which has a lot of "fantasy paint schemes" on it...I seem to remember seeing a PRR inspired AEM7 there. Regards On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >Has anybody painted one of these in a fantasy PRR scheme? I am considering >silver with a Tuscan band ala the Congo cars. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp. V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network alcoman.Railfan.net - Homepage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:53:37 -0700 For resources, I'd start with http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/ which has scans of official PRR drawings. One option is to start with a resin kit from Mr Chase in NJ. His kits have been mentioned before on this list - you'd have to check the archives for contact information. I understand these sides are casts of the old walthers sides. The rivets are wrong but the windows are right. I used the sides, ends, and underbody details from the kit. I scratch-built the roof and frame. Email me if you are interested in how I approached the roof. I put pre-paint pictures on http://pweb.netcom.com/~johncoop/mp54 John > ---------- > From: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L[SMTP:HildenbrandJL@mfr.usmc.mil] > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:14 PM > To: 'Andy Miller' > Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 > > I guess it looks like a scratchbuild job then ! At least I have a pair of > trucks to start with, but I only have few pictures, not much to help for > modeling. Do you know were I can get drawings and/or detailed specs? > This > will be my next project after the T-1 I'll be starting in Oct. > > Thanks, > > J. Hildenbrand > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:45 PM > To: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L > Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 > > > I'm afraid its not that easy. A detailed examination will show that > there is little in common between a P70 and an MP54. First, by > definition, the P70 is 16 feet longer. The P70's windows are paired > while those on the MP54 are tripled. The roof height as well as the > overall height is lower on the MP54. The trucks are substantially > different. And the list goes on... > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L wrote: > > > > Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these > from > > P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to > be > > done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for > any > > info. > > > > J. Hildenbrand > > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:24:43 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges Al wrote: >What about the Bridgemaster Deck truss, if nothing else it had the heavy >members. Definitely a challenge to build. Al, I realize that this is becoming somewhat tangential to the PRR but...I noticed these kit(s) mentioned in a recent issue of Maninline Modeler, but cannot find any addional information...PLEASE, where are these available, and what kinds of things are they selling? My impression was that the parts were supposed to be used with MicroEngineering components for the type of "kitbash" I am intending - building the double track Safe Harbor and possibly the double track Martic Forge bridges. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 14:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR List, I just finished weathering one of the new recently released MTS Brass Imports B&O C-15 Baggage Express Cars for a customer. Excellent Looking Model! May have to get one myself! Question. Would this B&O car have routinely seen PRR Mainline Trackage? I suppose so. Past posts say the PRR B60's seen nation wide service so one has to believe this B&O car roamed as well.. I think it would look good on a Mail Express with a T1 heading the consist. ....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Off-road head cars on the PRR Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:02:50 -0500 (CDT) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hi, all, After reading Gary's comments on B&O baggage cars, here are my thoughts. They are mostly relevant to the PRR in Pennsylvania, and within that, the Middle Division, the area I know best. Being (with one exception) too young to have been an eye-witness, the head-end cars I have seen in the photos and videos I have viewed on the PRR are New Haven and (I think) Missouri Pacific, or maybe the Texas & Pacific. The NH cars are fairly easy to spot. What I take to be MP cars mostly show up in videos of the 1950's, where a blue-and-white baggage car whizzes by on a daylight train on the Middle Division. Given the way the PRR scheduled their passenger fleet, these trains probably originated/terminated in St. Louis, where a connection with the MP is quite plausible. I have also seen Rock Island cars (probably coast-to-coast sleepers) in Middle Division videos. I also recall that in the mid-sixties, living in Baltimore, we used to visit Lake Roland a lot, where the North Central line went through. If it was late afternoon (I think), a train to or from Harrisburg always came through and I remember once it had a Santa Fe stainless steel fluted side baggage car - quite a contrast to the rest of the consist. Of course growing up in this area, I saw PRR stainless steel cars pulled by dark green GG1's so often that when I first saw an all-Tuscan consist, it looked odd. But I digress... I don't know about other head-end off-road cars that might have appeared. Given that there seem to be more photos of PRR b60's etc. off line than of other roads on the PRR, maybe this was due to the sheer quantity of PRR equipment relative to the other roads the PRR would have worked with. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:14:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR I would think that the corridor saw baggage and mail from every connecting RR north and south. I have no idea where the DC post office was but would suspect that B&O, C&O, Southern, ACL, Seaboard, PRR, NH, B&M, NYC, D&H, EL, MEC and a host of others would have regularly made visits. With the volume of mail the federal government received and collected it had to be inevitable in my opinion. Don't forget this was an era where the post office was about the only way of communicating between longer distances. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Shelb68man@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:37:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE:MP-54 In a message dated 9/6/00 10:03:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: [PRR] MP-54 From: "Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L" Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:18:24 -0500 Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these from P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to be done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for any info. J. Hildenbrand A T55TS&BS Society Member >> Joe, I did a kitbash of a MP-54 "Bride & Groom" set several years ago using the heavyweight passenger cars from LifeLike. I believe these cars were also made by Varney and/or Penn Line years ago. You can still find them at train shows today. These cars are the right length but window arrangements are not exact. With some work they make a good stand in. You can see a picture of my set on Jerry's site under Model Railroads. If you would like to know the modifications I made, let me know. C. Chandler Pres. Prr Schuylkill Div. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 05:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] The Youghiogheny Branch Through The Ages Spent too much time last night in My Archives, looking for facksual material on the Youghiogheny Branch. In the Valuation Report (Vol. 22, pp 285-301): "Development of Fixed Physical Property ... Acquired by purchase and merger ... From private parties ... Youghiogheny branch, near Shafton, Pa., acquired in 1899, from Penn Gas Coal Co." The 1900 CT1000 lists the whole branch, from Shafton to Gratztown in the Pittsburg Division. The list of locations: 420B Irwin Jct, Main Line 0.0 5900 " Youghiogheny Engine House 1.0 " " Storage 1.2 " " Penn Facing Mill Co. " 5902 Penn Gas Coal Co. Shaft #2 1.3 Hahntown " 5904 Penn Gas Coal Co. Shop Track 1.5 skipping a bunch of place names with no industries 5916 Gratztown 9.8 5918 Penn Gas Coal Co. Shaft #4 9.9 5920 Junction B&O RR 10.2 Note, no Westmoreland Coal Co. anywhere. The CT1000 lists distances from the Altoona Pass. Station, I calculated distances from Main Line. Don't bet anything on their correctness. 1923 CT1000 Irwin had prospered, there are too many entries to list here. To summarize: 5900 Shafton Westmoreland Coal Co. Car Shops 0.2 ... 5901 " Coal Run Siding, P. G. C. Co. 0.9 ... " Penn Facing Mill Co. 2.2 5902 Adams Coll. Westmoreland Coal Co. 2.3 Hahntown Station " 5904 Penn Gas Coal Co. 2.5 5905 Cereal Jersey Cereal Food Co. 3.2 5905A Jct, Pgh and Monon. Div. 3.4 ... 5907 Criterion Coll. W. C. Co. 4.7 ... 5912 Cowansburg Station 8.2 " " Jct, Hempfield Branch " " " Jct, Yukon Br., North conn. 8.3 " " Jct, Yukon Br., South conn. 8.4 5913 Marchand Coll. W. C. Co. 8.7 5914 Penn Gas Coal Co. Delivery 8.9 5914A Lowber Coll. Lowber Gas Coal Co. 9.3 5915 Lowber Station 9.4 5915A Youghiogheny Coll. W. C. Co. 10.2 5916 Gratztown Carload Delivery 10.7 " " Station 10.8 5920 Jct, B&O RR 11.1 Yes, I know the milages aren't the same as in 1900. Maybe the starting point on the main line moved between 1900 and 1923. The 1945 CT1000 has the branch ending just past Cereal, 3.2 miles from the main line. (But the description of the Hempfield Branch says it has a junction with the Yough. Branch at Cowansburg. "The CT1000 is not the Bible one could hope.") I was surprised to see in the 1945 CT1000 that Westmoreland Coal Co. Car Shops were still mentioned. Don't know that they were actually doing anything by then. I don't remember seeing WCCo cars in service back then, but perhaps they all went west from Irwin, eluding my eager gaze out in Latrobe. I had one other reference in mind, but I fear it has been transferred to the Dreaded Basement Division of My Archives. Somewhere, I read that the P. G. C. Co. had built the Yough. Br. so as to avoid being stuck with a single transportation supplier. But that remains unfacksual until I can find the @#$% thing. One other matter emerged. PRR bought the track in 1899. Burgess and Kennedy (page 439) say "Mr. Cassatt began to purchase the stock of this company [B&O] in November, 1899..." and go on to say that by the end of 1901, PRR owned 40% of B&O. WARNING. SPECULATION FOLLOWS. AVERT YOUR EYES, YE FAINT OF HEART. Well golly, PGCCo. builds 10 or 11 miles of RR, connecting PRR on one end with B&O on the other. Comes 1899, PRR buys a big chunk of B&O and that little connector. I wonder if the branch might have been part of a larger plan which, in the end, didn't come off? END SPECULATIVE MATERIAL ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] N-scale MU cars on EBay Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 08:58:49 -0400 To all: To those of you interested in PRR's Multiple Unit Electric Operations, eBay has an MB62, an MPB54, and a 3 car set of MP54's at auction this morning in N scale at category 486 (N and Z). Search under key words "5 day only - PENNSYLVANIA" and you will access them. Good photos of models. Gregg Mahlkov http://www.gtcom.net/~mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:28:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] NS Property beware I had a similar experience at Marysville a couple of months ago. I and about 5 others who were about 12-20 ft from the track were warned along with the 2 morons who had their tripods set up on the roadbed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:11:24 -0500 (CDT) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Jim If you have a telephoto lens you can get some pretty good shots of the OC bridge from a street that is higher than the bridge. For the life of me I can't remember the street name, and I don't have a map with me, so some of you Pgh denizens will have to help out. Seems like I remember the street taking off from at or near the intersection of the McKees Rocks Bridge and Rt. 60. Cross the ?Glenfield Bridge? and head up hill. The OC bridge is plainly visible once you head downslope on the other side of the hill crest. Seems like I remember a park up there where the leg of the Y heads downhill onto the Ft. Wayne - you might not need a telephoto at this spot. You can also get to the site northbound on Rt. 60 from Pittsburgh, but I don't remember the exit off Rt. 60. Jim Lash wrote >List, While on vacation, this past two weeks, a day was set aside for >train watchin'. After travelling 20 odd miles to Pgh's North Side, within >sight of the old Island Avenue intermodal yard, was an open lot. The >nearest tracks were between 50 and 60 feet from Beaver Avenue,.with the >mainline,elevated and another Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:24:36 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Trespassing From: Fred G Rea I second one point, made by the originator of this thread. It is imperative that the RRs make it clear what is their property. In that case it was not posted! But, as he said, he was treated courtesy and fairly, not "put in the computer" or charged. I have also heard stories of problems encountered by photographing from public property. The RR police call in the local law enforcement to threaten or charge you with loitering. I heard of this as long ago as near the SP in the '60s. Are any of the List members able to explain what constitutes illegal loitering? It sounds like a great catch all for localities to run off any body they want. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:49:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] The Youghiogheny Branch Through The Ages On Thu, 7 Sep 2000, robert netzlof wrote: > The 1945 CT1000 has the branch ending just past > Cereal, 3.2 miles from the main line. (But the > description of the Hempfield Branch says it has a > junction with the Yough. Branch at Cowansburg. "The > CT1000 is not the Bible one could hope.") According to a map found in Triumph 1, the line was cut back to the tunnel whose north portal was at Cereal in 1941. Interestingly the right of way south of said tunnel can be mostly followed today. When going north on Clay Pike from Herminie toward Irwin in fall one can even see about where the south tunnel portal was. I'm guessing like the north one it's been covered over but I have not gone to see. The north portal would be at the back of what was the Banco Industrial Park and whose name I don't know now. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 10:51:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HO Scale Liquidation From: Jerry Britton Folks, I am converting! Yes, yours truly is switching to N Scale! I have collected higher-quality HO stuff for the past 10 years, in anticipation of building the big layout. However, given recent announcements of what has or is going to come out in N scale has caused me to rethink. >From an operations and scenic standpoint, I can do so much more in N scale. I'll have my layout design posted soon. I have yet to install the scanner on the new computer. Anyway, I've got lots to sell off. For the convenience of those interested, I've set up to sell it through the Merchandise Service eStore on consignment, so you can use credit cards. Visit the eStore at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ and search for Manufacturer = Jerry's Clearance I've already listed numerous out-of-production Life Like locos, like PA's, E-8's, F-3's; Bachmann Spectrum K-4's; Rail Works Clearance Car; a Bob Strong model of HARRIS tower; cases of track; etc. Much more is to come, including lots of Red Caboose X-29's, Branchline Trains X-44's; Bachmann Spectrum passenger cars; an Alco B-1 electric switcher; and more. All serious offers will be considered. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:59:17 -0400 It has always been a problem in places. I recall being told I could not photograph a train from a passenger platform while awaiting a train to New York City at Harmon, NY on the NYC. The railroad policeman told me it was against the law to photograph trains, period. I had a ticket so he could not make me leave the platform, but he told me if he saw me taking a picture he would confiscate my camera. This was in 1955. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred G Rea" To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 10:24 AM Subject: [PRR] Trespassing > I second one point, made by the originator of this thread. It is > imperative that the RRs make it clear what is their property. In that > case it was not posted! But, as he said, he was treated courtesy and > fairly, not "put in the computer" or charged. > > I have also heard stories of problems encountered by photographing from > public property. The RR police call in the local law enforcement to > threaten or charge you with loitering. I heard of this as long ago as > near the SP in the '60s. Are any of the List members able to explain > what constitutes illegal loitering? It sounds like a great catch all for > localities to run off any body they want. > > Fred Rea > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Nixon" Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 11:18:16 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing Fred Rea wrote: I have also heard stories of problems encountered by photographing from public property. The RR police call in the local law enforcement to threaten or charge you with loitering. I heard of this as long ago as near the SP in the '60s. Are any of the List members able to explain what constitutes illegal loitering? It sounds like a great catch all for localities to run off any body they want. I heard from various people about problems not permitting them to photograph the Bush election train from Pittsburgh into Ohio. Many localities were provided with info and had police protecting the road crossings (so there would not be any grade crossing incidents) however, many of those told people that the FBI and/or Secret Service did not want the train photographed. While the train was parked at Station Square, the starting point, many tried to walk from the rear platform where all the activities were happening to get pictures of the train. They were told they could not. The train was such that no one could really safely walk along the train for photos, but they could go to the other end of the parking lot and get the photos of the units. K9 police were there and were observing and I saw many photos taken of the lead units there with no problems, they could not get near the tracks which I can agree with. The railroads are concerned about insurance problems from trespassers which they have a right to be, especially today, and they are also concerned about vandalism - just look at all the graffiti on the cars, which is about the only thing the public can notice, but who knows what people do that we don't know about - messing with equipment, stealing items, etc. The Pennsylvania Railroad is mostly a memory, and so is the way you can photograph trains today. The railroad's concerns are serious since they have a job of running a railroad and not to play host to railfans, many who have ruined the likelihood of others who are cautious, etc. to get thrills that normally are not happening anymore. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing Date: Thu, 7 Sep 100 11:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Gregg Mahlkov scribit: > > It has always been a problem in places. I recall being told I could not > photograph a train from a passenger platform while awaiting a train to New > York City at Harmon, NY on the NYC. The railroad policeman told me it was > against the law to photograph trains, period. I had a ticket so he could not > make me leave the platform, but he told me if he saw me taking a picture he > would confiscate my camera. This was in 1955. It was clearly against the law during the war, for reasons of national security. However, I'd like to know which specific law it is and look it up myself. The tower operator at one ex-PRR NEC tower refused to allow me to take inside pictures, citing the same reasons. That was in 1984 or thereabouts. A friend of mine was in Reading, taking pix of the yard from the sidewalk, when a RR cop told him the same thing, pointing to some signs saying this still tacked onto the chain-link fence. That was also early 1980s. My understanding of the Common Law (I'm surrounded by lawyers in my family, for better or for worse) is that this kind of law would be enforceable during wartime, but would be unconstitutional in peacetime. Of course, in the meantime, while you were proving your case, you could still be fined, maybe jailed, hauled into court, etc., and you would lose some chunk of change and time in the process. Now in the USSR, it was illegal all the time. Any significant public works project could not be photographed (legally), including RRs. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 11:29:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing From: Jerry Britton On 10/27/39 11:19 AM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: > The tower operator at one ex-PRR NEC tower refused to allow me to take inside > pictures, citing the same reasons. That was in 1984 or thereabouts. > The above would also implicate the tower operator(s) for allowing non-RR personnel onto/into RR property...the "smoking gun", if you will. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:31:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] RPP SD-40's Has anybody built one of these and will it fit an Atearn frame? How is the detail? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:32:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] AEM7 Has anybody painted one of these in a fantasy PRR scheme? I am considering silver with a Tuscan band ala the Congo cars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 13:33:12 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE They're not REAL NS police, they're ex-CONRAIL NS police. They (like their fellow employees) now work for a corporation that makes itself go by instilling fear of failure in employees. Who cares about photographing NS, anyway? I use color film, not BW. And, lest we forget, CONRAIL had some real G.W. Bush New York Times reporters on its police payroll, too. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:38:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] AEM7 You might want to check out paintshop.railfan.net It is Joshua Moldover's (sp) site which has a lot of "fantasy paint schemes" on it...I seem to remember seeing a PRR inspired AEM7 there. Regards On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >Has anybody painted one of these in a fantasy PRR scheme? I am considering >silver with a Tuscan band ala the Congo cars. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net www.bluemoon.net - The Blue Moon Internet Corp. V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network alcoman.Railfan.net - Homepage ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 10:53:37 -0700 For resources, I'd start with http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/ which has scans of official PRR drawings. One option is to start with a resin kit from Mr Chase in NJ. His kits have been mentioned before on this list - you'd have to check the archives for contact information. I understand these sides are casts of the old walthers sides. The rivets are wrong but the windows are right. I used the sides, ends, and underbody details from the kit. I scratch-built the roof and frame. Email me if you are interested in how I approached the roof. I put pre-paint pictures on http://pweb.netcom.com/~johncoop/mp54 John > ---------- > From: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L[SMTP:HildenbrandJL@mfr.usmc.mil] > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:14 PM > To: 'Andy Miller' > Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 > > I guess it looks like a scratchbuild job then ! At least I have a pair of > trucks to start with, but I only have few pictures, not much to help for > modeling. Do you know were I can get drawings and/or detailed specs? > This > will be my next project after the T-1 I'll be starting in Oct. > > Thanks, > > J. Hildenbrand > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 1:45 PM > To: Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L > Cc: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 > > > I'm afraid its not that easy. A detailed examination will show that > there is little in common between a P70 and an MP54. First, by > definition, the P70 is 16 feet longer. The P70's windows are paired > while those on the MP54 are tripled. The roof height as well as the > overall height is lower on the MP54. The trucks are substantially > different. And the list goes on... > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L wrote: > > > > Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these > from > > P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to > be > > done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for > any > > info. > > > > J. Hildenbrand > > A T55TS&BS Society Member > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 13:24:43 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges Al wrote: >What about the Bridgemaster Deck truss, if nothing else it had the heavy >members. Definitely a challenge to build. Al, I realize that this is becoming somewhat tangential to the PRR but...I noticed these kit(s) mentioned in a recent issue of Maninline Modeler, but cannot find any addional information...PLEASE, where are these available, and what kinds of things are they selling? My impression was that the parts were supposed to be used with MicroEngineering components for the type of "kitbash" I am intending - building the double track Safe Harbor and possibly the double track Martic Forge bridges. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 14:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR List, I just finished weathering one of the new recently released MTS Brass Imports B&O C-15 Baggage Express Cars for a customer. Excellent Looking Model! May have to get one myself! Question. Would this B&O car have routinely seen PRR Mainline Trackage? I suppose so. Past posts say the PRR B60's seen nation wide service so one has to believe this B&O car roamed as well.. I think it would look good on a Mail Express with a T1 heading the consist. ....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Off-road head cars on the PRR Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 14:02:50 -0500 (CDT) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hi, all, After reading Gary's comments on B&O baggage cars, here are my thoughts. They are mostly relevant to the PRR in Pennsylvania, and within that, the Middle Division, the area I know best. Being (with one exception) too young to have been an eye-witness, the head-end cars I have seen in the photos and videos I have viewed on the PRR are New Haven and (I think) Missouri Pacific, or maybe the Texas & Pacific. The NH cars are fairly easy to spot. What I take to be MP cars mostly show up in videos of the 1950's, where a blue-and-white baggage car whizzes by on a daylight train on the Middle Division. Given the way the PRR scheduled their passenger fleet, these trains probably originated/terminated in St. Louis, where a connection with the MP is quite plausible. I have also seen Rock Island cars (probably coast-to-coast sleepers) in Middle Division videos. I also recall that in the mid-sixties, living in Baltimore, we used to visit Lake Roland a lot, where the North Central line went through. If it was late afternoon (I think), a train to or from Harrisburg always came through and I remember once it had a Santa Fe stainless steel fluted side baggage car - quite a contrast to the rest of the consist. Of course growing up in this area, I saw PRR stainless steel cars pulled by dark green GG1's so often that when I first saw an all-Tuscan consist, it looked odd. But I digress... I don't know about other head-end off-road cars that might have appeared. Given that there seem to be more photos of PRR b60's etc. off line than of other roads on the PRR, maybe this was due to the sheer quantity of PRR equipment relative to the other roads the PRR would have worked with. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:14:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR I would think that the corridor saw baggage and mail from every connecting RR north and south. I have no idea where the DC post office was but would suspect that B&O, C&O, Southern, ACL, Seaboard, PRR, NH, B&M, NYC, D&H, EL, MEC and a host of others would have regularly made visits. With the volume of mail the federal government received and collected it had to be inevitable in my opinion. Don't forget this was an era where the post office was about the only way of communicating between longer distances. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Shelb68man@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:37:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE:MP-54 In a message dated 9/6/00 10:03:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: [PRR] MP-54 From: "Hildenbrand Sgt Joseph L" Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 13:18:24 -0500 Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. Did the PRR make these from P-70's? From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to be done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for any info. J. Hildenbrand A T55TS&BS Society Member >> Joe, I did a kitbash of a MP-54 "Bride & Groom" set several years ago using the heavyweight passenger cars from LifeLike. I believe these cars were also made by Varney and/or Penn Line years ago. You can still find them at train shows today. These cars are the right length but window arrangements are not exact. With some work they make a good stand in. You can see a picture of my set on Jerry's site under Model Railroads. If you would like to know the modifications I made, let me know. C. Chandler Pres. Prr Schuylkill Div. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:59:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges In a message dated 09/07/2000 1:24:44 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << I realize that this is becoming somewhat tangential to the PRR but...I noticed these kit(s) mentioned in a recent issue of Maninline Modeler, but cannot find any addional information...PLEASE, where are these available, and what kinds of things are they selling? My impression was that the parts were supposed to be used with MicroEngineering components for the type of "kitbash" I am intending - building the double track Safe Harbor and possibly the double track Martic Forge bridges. Happy Rails Bruce >> Hi Bruce & List, I saw the add first several years ago. I saw several kits this spring at Downers Grove Hobbies in Downers Grove IL. I got kind of scared of the kit when I saw it first hand. It is currently sold by Three Brothers manufacturing. I believe they also handle the C&NW Bi-Level cars. I passed by the hobby shop again today and stopped in. They had one in stock and I grabbed it. It is kit #116-1 , Suggested retail is $69.95. Acording to the insert, it will give you the options of making the following, 119' Dble Track Deck Pratt 119' Sngl Track Through Pratt 117' Sngl Track Deck Warren or Pratt 142' Dble Track Deck Warren or Pratt 142' Sngl Track Through Warren or Pratt Another statement on the package is " Intorducing a NON Pre-Cut model kit" It looks challenging and very heavy duty if nothing else. I do recall in Mainline when the topice of rivet making was discussed, this product was mentioned in regards to using one of the techniques. Hope this helps. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 16:15:32 -0500 (CDT) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: [PRR] A couple of neat places along the Ft. Wayne to train watch On the Ohio River Boulevard, just south of Sewickley are Haysville and Glenfield. Both places have PRR position signals still in place. Haysville is perhaps the only place where you can drive across the tracks between Leetsdale and Pittsburgh. There is a stop light at the intersection the Ohio River Blvd and the short street that crosses the tracks. There is a long narrow street on the river side of the tracks that parallels the tracks for quite some distance. The best train watching area is close to the crossing, as the street dips below track level as you go south. A bit further south, near the I-79 interchange with the ORB is the Glenfield Viaduct. It is a bit tricky to find your way onto it, but when you do, you cross over the tracks and curve down to street level. Park at the base of the viaduct and walk up about 6 flights of stairs. There is a pedestrian walk way along the two lane road. The north view is compromised somewhat by a chain link fence along the entire viaduct. On the south side the fence is only over the tracks. There is not much traffic on the viaduct so you can scoot across the road and sit on the cement guardrail to take photos. The signal bridge is maybe 100 yards south of the viaduct. OR, you can drive to the south end of the street paralleling the tracks and watch from pretty close to the tracks - the signal bridge is now about 50 yards north of you. OR, you can drive to the north end of the road paralleling the tracks. There is a large open area there and you can get pretty close to the tracks. The tracks curve around a hillside and then straighten out when they pass this site, so you don't have much warning that something is coming. Another good site on the Ft. Wayne is at Rochester. You have to cross over the tracks on a viaduct (whose name, if there is one, I don't remember). This also curves around and brings you down to street level. You can park pretty close to the tracks. The Rochester tower used to be here. I understand it was demolished a year or so ago. Trains leaving the Conway Yard are not moving very fast, and trains entering the yard are slowing down. At the other two sites they are often moving at 50+ mph. I have never seen CR or NS police at any of these locations - I think they are too busy bugging people who want to cross the tracks to fish in the Ohio. Nor have local police bothered me. But, I have had lots of horn honks and waves from both CR and NS engineers, so at least they are friendly. A couple of years ago I took my grandsons to Rochester to train watch. A CR mixed freight eased out of Conway and was picking up speed as it headed west. I told the boys to wave, which they did, vigorously. The engineer responded with horn blasts and the bell, which scared the bejeebers out of the kids. Both of them jumped - straight up and back simultaneously. Just like in a cartoon. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRR A Neat place to watch trains..... Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 17:43:54 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C018F3.30C4D760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey folks, Dan is talking about my old stomping grounds. Anybody interested in = that neck of the woods, (mainline along route 65) drop me a line. = Nothing like watching a freight lean into the curve at French Point at = Ambridge. Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C018F3.30C4D760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey folks,
 Dan is talking about my old stomping grounds. = Anybody=20 interested in that neck of the woods, (mainline along route 65) = drop me a=20 line. Nothing like watching a freight lean into the curve at French = Point at=20 Ambridge.
 
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C018F3.30C4D760-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 17:53:40 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Girder Bridges I have not seen their bridge but I have used the rivet sheet available separately several times. I have scratch built several truss bridges from Central Valley laced girders and Three Brothers Rivet sheet's gusset plates. The rivet sheets are available from Peach Creek Hobbies in Laurel MD. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== AlbertSR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 09/07/2000 1:24:44 PM Central Daylight Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > << I realize that this is becoming somewhat tangential to the PRR but...I > noticed these kit(s) mentioned in a recent issue of Maninline Modeler, but > cannot find any addional information...PLEASE, where are these available, > and what kinds of things are they selling? My impression was that the > parts were supposed to be used with MicroEngineering components for the > type of "kitbash" I am intending - building the double track Safe Harbor > and possibly the double track Martic Forge bridges. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > >> > Hi Bruce & List, > I saw the add first several years ago. I saw several kits this spring at > Downers Grove Hobbies in Downers Grove IL. I got kind of scared of the kit > when I saw it first hand. It is currently sold by Three Brothers > manufacturing. I believe they also handle the C&NW Bi-Level cars. I passed by > the hobby shop again today and stopped in. They had one in stock and I > grabbed it. It is kit #116-1 , Suggested retail is $69.95. > > Acording to the insert, it will give you the options of making the following, > 119' Dble Track Deck Pratt > 119' Sngl Track Through Pratt > 117' Sngl Track Deck Warren or Pratt > 142' Dble Track Deck Warren or Pratt > 142' Sngl Track Through Warren or Pratt > > Another statement on the package is " Intorducing a NON Pre-Cut model kit" > > It looks challenging and very heavy duty if nothing else. > > I do recall in Mainline when the topice of rivet making was discussed, this > product was mentioned in regards to using one of the techniques. > > Hope this helps. > > Al > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Subject: [PRR] Pictures Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 18:06:04 EDT Guys (and Gals), It sounds to me like you all have had the bum end of the deal...as far as it goes. Try the following (as it seems to work for me). Look like you belong in a place. Be sure to dress appropriately for the situation. You won't get questioned if they think you belong there. This means you walk into a place instead of parking there and you take pictures where you think no one will mind/see. Look like an employee or an authorized person and the police will not bother you. I know, I do it all the time. Don't look like a railfan and they won't think you are one. We all love railroads to death and we know how things work. Be sure to act like you do. I've been trapesing over private NS property as long as I can remember (as well as some other places). I have never had a problem. Look like you have a genuine legitimate purpose for being there (other than railfaning). Just look like you belong and for heaven sakes, if you get caught, don't lie and leave. For good info on the subject: Hopping Freight Trains in America by, Duffy Littlejohn. Matt Sichel Youngest PRR Affectionado _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 15:21:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Bowser T1 Sam, list, I didn't have this problem with my T1, but your truck frames might be bent. The frames are pewter and relatively soft. I checked trucks on other engines that sparked and found that they were warped. I checked this on a piece of plate glass. Hope this solves your problem! Doug --- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: > > I was getting an occasional spark from one of the > tender wheels __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MSand17545@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:37:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] could i please unsubscribe? thank you could i please unsubscribe? thank you ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 16:00:55 -0700 From: Doug Edwards Subject: Re: [PRR] Pictures Matt, Are you suggesting we carry a shovel and lean on it? ;) I always found having one of my kids along when they were young opended lots of doors, besides railfanning. Doug Matt Sichel wrote: > Guys (and Gals), > > It sounds to me like you all have had the bum end of the deal...as far as it > goes. Try the following (as it seems to work for me). Look like you belong > in a place. Be sure to dress appropriately for the situation. You won't > get questioned if they think you belong there. This means you walk into a > place instead of parking there and you take pictures where you think no one > will mind/see. Look like an employee or an authorized person and the police > will not bother you. I know, I do it all the time. Don't look like a > railfan and they won't think you are one. We all love railroads to death > and we know how things work. Be sure to act like you do. > > I've been trapesing over private NS property as long as I can remember (as > well as some other places). I have never had a problem. Look like you have > a genuine legitimate purpose for being there (other than railfaning). Just > look like you belong and for heaven sakes, if you get caught, don't lie and > leave. > > For good info on the subject: > > Hopping Freight Trains in America > by, Duffy Littlejohn. > > Matt Sichel > Youngest PRR Affectionado > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2000 19:02:37 -0400 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [PRR] Perryville, MD is [was?] a good place for railfanning Perryville has been one of my favorite spots. The locals watched the railfans arrive about 10pm on Friday and Saturday nights to watch all of the freights parked on the 'Port Road' come out on the main to Baltimore & south. The locals got involved thru a service group, raised the money, & went thru the hassle of getting approval from Amtrak, MARC (commuter authority), historical overseers, state, county, & town governments to put in place 3 cast iron & wood benches to sit & watch trains. Even planted flowers & bushes around the renovated 1907? vintage PRR station. The last time I was there 3 years ago, 100+ were there waiting for the show. With the MD state trooper barracks a few miles away, a car would drive through making sure that no one was parking "Illegally"! On a couple occasions, the trooper would ask if anything special was coming? The station grounds were KP'd & looked a lot better after everyone left. This was one instance when everyone realized railfans & involved locals were GOOD! A rare use of the mental processes by the powers-to-be!! Do the Fri/Sat gatherings still happen? BTW: Locally here last year, I saw a signal pole dangling in the air hanging on the wires on the old C&O Mountain Div; apparently snapped by a car/truck accident. I called CSX, went thru 3 transfers before getting the signal department telling them where the broken pole was. The line now carries mostly WB coal empties & the Cardinal tri-weekly. Since the pole was on the longest passing siding between Clifton Forge & Charlottesville & is used quite often for meets, figured it was important. A month went by & nothing. So I sent CSX Jacksonville an email & asked if they cared that I noticed the broken pole. I got an abrupt email response & the pole was replaced within a week. Figure my email address is on CSX's "Nasty/No Help" list & the signal gang is PO'd at me. Go figure! --Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property,beware Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:53:35 -0400 Hank, I seem to remember reading somewhere that even Mr. Link had a special pass for use while photographing the N&W, and it was called into question on different occasions. The people of the predecessor roads, from what I've read were never "railfan" friendly. JIm -----Original Message----- From: bubbles@visi.net To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:33 PM Subject: [PRR] NS property,beware > > Hi... > > Gee...i wonder what O.Winton Link would have thought. > In a way its a good thing,but also its a shame. > > Years ago i remember the trains that got "rocked" back home > on the NEC (remember the "WHOMP" you would hear when > riding the old Metroliners ?)and dad telling me about some kids even >putting a refrigerator from up between the ties once somewhere. > Perhaps some of it can be blamed on the attitude > NS gained during some of its labor troubles years ago. > Not to mention insurance issues. > > Some of the solution would be for NS to designate > spots where railfans could go and mark them as such. > (but that would cost money) Its sad to see this. > Years ago railroads,in spite of being a dangerous > industrial place ,were still at least freindlier. > Gee when i think of all the places i went and > stuff i got into because my dad was a railroader. > But time changes things,like everything else. > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: Fw: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:55:15 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: S J Lash To: bnixon@libcom.com Date: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:41 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE >Bill, After reading your mail from yesterday, I asked two former Union >employees why this would happen. It seems someone in one of the crews may >have thought the picture taker was a "company " man trying to get the >"goods" on one or more of the crews. From some of the stories I 've heard, >that would not come as a surprise. Jim P.S. The practice still >stinks; it's not the first time I heard of it though with the Union or the >old Mon-Con. >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Nixon >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Date: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 9:48 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE > > >>Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property; BEWARE >>>I too, have been very careful while around NS property since the bust. >>>There is, however, nothing they can do when you are on public property. >> >>stories I have heard about the past - taking photos of Union Railroad >>from public spots, they would call the local police and theywould >>cite you for loitering... >> >>their excuse was that people were shooting out the signals, etc. >>don't think railfans carry guns.. >>Bill >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PC-Buff@webtv.net Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] NS Property No Trespassing signs are all over here in Sunbury but the folks here are pretty friendly I never had a problem taking photos. As a matter of fact I usually get the employees to contact the dispatcher to see if anythings coming through. but then this was CR territory and not NS John MP 258 (SF) Sunbury Pa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:41:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing In a message dated 00-09-07 11:27:27 EDT, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << you could still be fined, maybe jailed, hauled into court, etc., and you would lose some chunk of change and time in the process. Now in the USSR, it was illegal all the time. Any significant public works project could not be photographed (legally), including RRs. >> All through this thread, I've been thinking about my 1996 trip from Vladivostok to Moscow. After about 3 days, we railfans realized that nobody cared where we walked or what we photographed! We blazed away at yards, shops, engines, stations, you name it. No effort to conceal ourselves or sneak around was necessary. Several folks commented that they wished rail photography in NY or Chicago was still so easy. I believe that 1996-97 was probably about the "loosest" time period in Russia, and that things may have tightened up since. But the real issue here is that, had any of us gotten hurt, we couldn't have sued anyone. Rich Copeland Of course, had any of us gotten hurt, we couldn't have sued anyone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:57:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] A couple of neat places along the Ft. Wayne to train Another location is at the Emsworth lock and dam. Follow the signs from Rt 65, This is the site of the former Emsworth station (long gone). You can actually stand between the mainline tracks on the access road to the dam and be on Federal property not railroad property. I don't recommend this as the Army Corps of Engineers will not look kindly on this practice. The old Passenger underpass is still in place and is an access to the dam. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:12:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 Hi Joseph, > Has anyone on this list kitbashed a MP-54. It might be useful to state what scale you are working in. It's not easy to guess from where I am sitting. I've begun doing this kitbash in N scale, but maybe that is not your cup of tea. > Did the PRR make these from > P-70's? Most definitely not. The P54 coach had a very different construction technique from the P70 - they are totally separate designs. While this may not matter from a modelers perspective, the P54 design supported the car via the center sill. The P70 design supported the car via the car sides. > From photo's I've seen, it looks as if the only major work to be > done is the underpart, car ends , and pantagraph. Thanx in advance for any > info. You need to look at the photos again. The P70 had 10 sets of windows arranged in PAIRS. The P54 had 5 sets of windows arranged in TRIPLES. This is not including the single end windows on both car classes. P54 cars were originally built to be steam-hauled, mP54 (lower-case m) cars were steam-hauled but built for later electric conversion, MP54 cars were electric cars. Same basic car body on them all. Electric cars came in both over-head wire and third-rail flavors. There is a surviving MP54 at Strasburg for your research pleasure. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 19:12:57 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54 Joseph, > I guess it looks like a scratchbuild job then ! At least I have a pair of > trucks to start with, but I only have few pictures, not much to help for > modeling. Do you know were I can get drawings and/or detailed specs? See "Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book" by NJ International for drawings and photos. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:13:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] A couple of neat places along the Ft. Wayne to train On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > Another location is at the Emsworth lock and dam. Follow the signs from Rt > 65, This is the site of the former Emsworth station (long gone). You can > actually stand between the mainline tracks on the access road to the dam and > be on Federal property not railroad property. I don't recommend this as the > Army Corps of Engineers will not look kindly on this practice. The old > Passenger underpass is still in place and is an access to the dam. if you call the corps you may be able to arrange a dam tour (no pun intended; i have pictures somewhere i took of a passing train from on the dam last summer) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 20:17:41 -0700 Gary Mittner wrote: "Question. Would this B&O car have routinely seen PRR Mainline Trackage? I suppose so. Past posts say the PRR B60's seen nation wide service so one has to believe this B&O car roamed as well.. I think it would look good on a Mail Express with a T1 heading the consist." Then George Pierson wrote: "The head-end cars I have seen in the photos and videos I have viewed on the PRR are New Haven and (I think) Missouri Pacific, or maybe the Texas & Pacific. The NH cars are fairly easy to spot. What I take to be MP cars mostly show up in videos of the 1950's, where a blue-and-white baggage car whizzes by on a daylight train on the Middle Division. Given the way the PRR scheduled their passenger fleet, these trains probably originated/terminated in St. Louis, where a connection with the MP is quite plausible. I have also seen Rock Island cars (probably coast-to-coast sleepers) in Middle Division videos." Then NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: "I would think that the corridor saw baggage and mail from every connecting RR north and south. I have no idea where the DC post office was but would suspect that B&O, C&O, Southern, ACL, Seaboard, PRR, NH, B&M, NYC, D&H, EL, MEC and a host of others would have regularly made visits. With the volume of mail the federal government received and collected it had to be inevitable in my opinion. Don't forget this was an era where the post office was about the only way of communicating between longer distances." >From the photographic evidence I've been piecing together, railroad-owned head end equipment interchange tended to occur between railroads on complimentary east-west or north-south routes (examples seen include PRR B60s, R50s and express X29s on the Santa Fe; DL&W baggage cars on NYC trains west of Buffalo; MoPac cars on St. Louis trains, and New Haven, Seaboard, and ACL cars in trains on the NE Corridor). The one thing you don't see (unlike regular freight cars) is head end equipment from a direct competitor on the same route - take a close look at Pennsy passenger train photos and see how many NYC or B&O head end cars running in the Blue Ribbon Fleet, or PRR head end equipment in NYC and B&O trains. The one exception to this pattern are cars owned by REA, which were "free runners" and can be seen among head end equipment on all roads. The Rock Island cars George saw in videos are, in fact, coast-to-coast sleepers (the Golden State sleepers stand out very well). Santa Fe and UP also exchanged sleepers as well. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 00:00:31 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > The one thing you don't see > (unlike regular freight cars) is head end equipment from a direct competitor > on the same route - take a close look at Pennsy passenger train photos and > see how many NYC or B&O head end cars running in the Blue Ribbon Fleet, or > PRR head end equipment in NYC and B&O trains. Greetings to Ben and the List: Agreed. I spent a bunch of years in Pittsburgh where PRR/PC and B&O passenger trains both came through. One thing I never, ever remember seeing was B&O head-end cars on PRR trains, or vice versa. But I did see such things as ACL, SAL, and SOU baggage cars on PRR -- and on the Harrisburg-Pittsburgh main line, too, not just on the Corridor where you'd expect. As others have noted, connecting routings tended to contribute cars to through movements and I do remember seeing MP cars in Pittsburgh station. Going back into semi-ancient history, one time and place you *would* have seen B&O head-end cars on PRR (but on B&O trains, not mixed into PRR trains) was on the north end of the Wash.-NY route between April 28, 1918 and August 29, 1926, a period during which B&O used Pennsylvania Station in Manhattan. This arrangement started as a USRA-prompted move to relieve the passenger load on congested PRR trains on the NY-Wash. route and fill up the underutilized B&O trains. Instead of the traditional (and later) B&O-RDG-CNJ route, B&O trains during this time ran from Washington to Philadelphia on B&O, Philadelphia to Manville, N.J. on the Reading, then over a short section of Lehigh Valley main line to get to the PRR Phila.-NY main line near Newark, then to Manhattan Transfer, where a PRR DD-1 electric hauled B&O trains into Penn Station. (See Herb Harwood's book "Royal Blue Line" for more details). Power from Phila. to Manhattan Transfer was a RDG steam engine. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Romans 10:9-10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR Dan and Ben, Thanks for the informitive history lesson on the B&O Baggage Cars and the routing of same. The MTS Brass Model of this car is quite excellent. It looks like I will pass on the purchase of one being it wouldn't have operated on the Pennsy. Atleast I save 275.00 Bucks anyway. Thanks....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:17:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR Not on the Blue Ribbon Fleet, but I always speculated the baggage car on the Football Extra headed for Wierton behind AS616 on page 245 of Pennsy Power II was a B&O car. Also not on the Blue Ribbon Fleet, but there are photos of NYC express cars converted from troop sleepers on the Buffalo Day Express in later years. I also thought some of those fishbelly (milk?) cars in videos of the late 30's were NYC cars, but pretty hard to tell. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR Bob, That photo sure does show the B&O Baggage car. Hmmm, is one photo proof worth it for me to get the car????? Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:25:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] AEM7 From: James K Bunger Well, yes. I was considering Tuscan with 5 stripes but have not figured out the wrapping at the nose....There was a picture of an E60 (freight) in one of the Walthers catalogs a few years ago. This was when Walther marketed their own versons of the e60's. On Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:32:16 EDT NDBPRR@aol.com writes: > Has anybody painted one of these in a fantasy PRR scheme? I am > considering > silver with a Tuscan band ala the Congo cars. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 00:34:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR In a message dated 9/7/00 11:27:47 PM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << That photo sure does show the B&O Baggage car. Hmmm, is one photo proof worth it for me to get the car????? Gary >> You could save $270 and get an Athearn baggage--isn't that a B&O prototype? :-) Although I have never seen that style in a PRR train. Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 22:21:05 -0700 Bob Zoeller wrote: "Not on the Blue Ribbon Fleet, but I always speculated the baggage car on the Football Extra headed for Weirton behind AS616 on page 245 of Pennsy Power II was a B&O car. Also not on the Blue Ribbon Fleet, but there are photos of NYC express cars converted from troop sleepers on the Buffalo Day Express in later years. I also thought some of those fishbelly (milk?) cars in videos of the late 30's were NYC cars, but pretty hard to tell." Remember what I said - on routes where direct competition existed. It makes sense for NYC express cars to show up on the Buffalo Day Express - PRR was at a distinct disadvantage when it came to the New York City - Buffalo routing, and Buffalo would be a convenient connection for any NYC express traffic originating west of Buffalo destined for Philadelphia or Washington. Correct on the "fishbelly" express reefers - they were most likely NYC milk cars - where were the scenes in those videos shot? As for the baggage car on the Weirton passenger extra - modeling all of the exceptions does not make an exceptional model railroad, but if you want to pick up the B&O car, go ahead - it is a neat car! Ben ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Anne_&_Henrik_Hornb=E6k_Thomsen?= Subject: Sv: [PRR] pittsburgh commuter schedules? Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 21:42:53 +0200 Hi, I am sitting with a photocopy of a schedule book from '35 containing all schedules for all passenger trains (all railroads including interurbans and trolleys) out of Pittsburgh. I was copied to me by a danish friend who has been living in Pittsburg for the past year. I'll try and get a hold of the title. When my scanner gets operable again it should be possible to scan some copies Best regards, Henrik Thomsen dk ----- Original Message ----- From: robert netzlof To: Derrick J Brashear ; Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] pittsburgh commuter schedules? > --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > So, until 1964 the Pennsy operated commuter service > > around Pittsburgh. > > I've never seen a public schedule for this service; > > Did a schedule or > > schedules exist in printed form? > > > Can't speak to the '60's, but through the '40's and > early '50's there were little paper TT's each covering > a single route. Pittsburgh to Derry, Pittsburgh to > Beaver Falls, Pittsburgh to Belle Vernon, like that. > > Used to have a bunch of them but they got purged in a > big clean-up frenzy at teh homestead while I was > getting established in my first job. Don't recall > having seen anything like a small book titled > "Pittsburgh Commuter Timetables" collecting them all > in one place. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Perryville, MD is [was?] a good place for railfanning Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 07:47:52 -0400 Bob Yes Perryville is alive and well. I was ther a Mounth ago and enjoyed the evening with friend from the York Pa. aera.Everyone brings food and drink and has a great time. Also if you get there while the station is open a local group has a layout of the wye at Perryville. Onthe night I was there we also went to Edgewood , about 17 miles South to watch trains at full speed , this will get the blood up.If you are going to be in the aera let me know and I'll give the boys a call Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Colquitt" To: Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2000 7:02 PM Subject: [PRR] Perryville, MD is [was?] a good place for railfanning > Perryville has been one of my favorite spots. The locals watched the > railfans arrive about 10pm on Friday and Saturday nights to watch all of > the freights parked on the 'Port Road' come out on the main to Baltimore > & south. > > The locals got involved thru a service group, raised the money, & went > thru the hassle of getting approval from Amtrak, MARC (commuter > authority), historical overseers, state, county, & town governments to > put in place 3 cast iron & wood benches to sit & watch trains. Even > planted flowers & bushes around the renovated 1907? vintage PRR station. > > The last time I was there 3 years ago, 100+ were there waiting for the > show. With the MD state trooper barracks a few miles away, a car would > drive through making sure that no one was parking "Illegally"! On a > couple occasions, the trooper would ask if anything special was coming? > The station grounds were KP'd & looked a lot better after everyone left. > > This was one instance when everyone realized railfans & involved locals > were GOOD! A rare use of the mental processes by the powers-to-be!! > > Do the Fri/Sat gatherings still happen? > > BTW: Locally here last year, I saw a signal pole dangling in the air > hanging on the wires on the old C&O Mountain Div; apparently snapped by > a car/truck accident. I called CSX, went thru 3 transfers before getting > the signal department telling them where the broken pole was. The line > now carries mostly WB coal empties & the Cardinal tri-weekly. Since the > pole was on the longest passing siding between Clifton Forge & > Charlottesville & is used quite often for meets, figured it was important. > > A month went by & nothing. So I sent CSX Jacksonville an email & asked > if they cared that I noticed the broken pole. I got an abrupt email > response & the pole was replaced within a week. Figure my email address > is on CSX's "Nasty/No Help" list & the signal gang is PO'd at me. > > Go figure! > --Bob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:25:50 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Trespassing The Russians have yet to discovery the new National Lotttery called litigation! Don't lay the blame on the police officers who are just doing their jobs. The cost of litigation to the NS could easily pay for the restoration and operation of a Steam Program. If each of us faced the same risks from those we see advertising their profession on TV and who bait the public with the illusion of quick and staggering riches, we surely would be defensive about our money and the risk of having it reappropriated by 10 people on a jury who find the thought of being able to redistribute wealth rather attractive. Our civil justice system intrudes into life's simple pleasures. BL PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 00-09-07 11:27:27 EDT, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: > > << you could still be fined, maybe jailed, > hauled into court, etc., and you would lose some chunk of change and time > in the process. Now in the USSR, it was illegal all the time. Any > significant > public works project could not be photographed (legally), including RRs. >> > > All through this thread, I've been thinking about my 1996 trip from > Vladivostok to Moscow. After about 3 days, we railfans realized that > nobody cared where we walked or what we photographed! We blazed > away at yards, shops, engines, stations, you name it. No effort to > conceal ourselves or sneak around was necessary. Several folks > commented that they wished rail photography in NY or Chicago was > still so easy. > I believe that 1996-97 was probably about the "loosest" time period > in Russia, and that things may have tightened up since. But the > real issue here is that, had any of us gotten hurt, we couldn't have > sued anyone. > > Rich Copeland > > Of course, had any of us gotten hurt, we couldn't have sued anyone. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 08:45:06 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] NS property,beware Mr. Link actually had permission from the President of N&W to go anywhere and do anything on the RR. He had his own phone box key so he could talk to the dispatchers and was even known to have trains sped up/slowed down to get a better photo. Most of this is documented in "Steam, Steel and Stars" and the Last Steam Railroad..." The point is, he asked permission before he went out on RR property and created his magnificent photos. The Railroads have a pretty good case for not allowing trespassers, especially foolhardy ones, on their property. Maybe if folks asked first, and could show they were responsible (i.e., the Perryville example), they would have more luck and get to see/photograph more trains SAFELY. Not that you asked for my opinion, but you got it anyway. JimMcDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Visiting Tulsa Oklahoma. Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:20:30 +1000 Listers' I will be visiting my girlfriend in Tulsa fo the month of November. 29th of October to the 28th of November to be exact. Any suggestions for visiting layouts and/or prototype while I am there. Thanx in advance Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:24:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Visiting Tulsa Oklahoma. In a message dated 9/8/2000 9:26:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, prr@unite.com.au writes: > Any suggestions for visiting layouts and/or prototype while I am there. You might wish to join the "RRTulsa" list on egroups (www.egroups.com). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 10:38:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Perryville, MD Hello all, Perryville is still a good place to railfan. All the times I've been there the crowds can be anything from none to 30 people. Apperantly NS has had vandalism problems with their dwarf signals. Check out the dwarf signals on the north end of the wye (grade crossing end), they now have cages on them. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Sep 00 12:51:40 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] RE: The big conversion Reply to: RE: The big conversion "Jerry Britton" wrote: >Folks, I am converting! Yes, yours truly is switching to N Scale! >I have collected higher-quality HO stuff for the past 10 years, in >anticipation of building the big layout. However, given recent announcements >of what has or is going to come out in N scale has caused me to rethink. >From an operations and scenic standpoint, I can do so much more in N scale. >I'll have my layout design posted soon. I have yet to install the scanner on >the new computer. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. Wow, Jerry! After accumulating that much good equipment, it takes guts to give it all up and get into another scale, though I can certainly understand why you're doing it. If there ever was a scale suitable for replicating the PRR's trunk line and facilities, it's N scale. >From the line in your signature, you're modeling.... what? Harrisburg and the Middle division? A while ago, you had posted you were also interested in the Pittsburgh division running west out of Altoona. Eastern Region boundary post (if such a thing existed) was at Slope tower in 1954, wasn't it? When did Symmes reconfigure the 3-region system into something approximating the 'Grand Divisions' of yore -- 1956? I look forward to seeing your track plan. I thought you were working in 3rdPlanIt? -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O Baggage on PRR Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:58:15 EDT On the flip side, I saw westbound B&O trains out of D.C with Pennsy baggage and RPO's on the head end, on at least three occasions in the 1950's. Rare, for sure. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 13:08:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion From: Jerry Britton On 9/8/00 12:51 PM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > After accumulating that much good equipment, it takes guts to give it all up > and get into another scale, though I can certainly understand why you're doing > it. The thought of converting with all the great P2K (and other) stuff I have accumulated is sickening! This was about the 4th time I've considered it. Should've given in 20 years ago. At least it was BEFORE I broke ground on the layout!!! > > If there ever was a scale suitable for replicating the PRR's trunk line and > facilities, it's N scale. Agreed. > > From the line in your signature, you're modeling.... what? Harrisburg and the > Middle division? > A while ago, you had posted you were also interested in the Pittsburgh > division running west out of Altoona. Eastern Region boundary post (if such a > thing existed) was at Slope tower in 1954, wasn't it? Plan will be online soon. Includes: * Philadelphia Division - featuring Harrisburg Passenger Station an adjoining REA and freight facilities; working connection to the Northern Central Branch (to staging) and Cumberland Valley Branch (to staging); Rockville Bridge with all four legs active, working connection to Williamsport Division (to staging) and Enola (to staging); BANKS tower reuniting all lines; * Middle Division - series of yet-to-be-determined interlockings to align trains properly for "the mountain". Likely to include VIEW, WORKS, and ALTO; * Mountain Division - Kittanning Point, Horseshoe Curve, MG, the Allegrippus, Bennington Curve, The Slide, Tunnel Hill, Gallitzin (w/helper loop), MO, working connection with Irvonia Branch (to staging) and Black Lick Secondary (to staging), and helper facility. Sounds busy; it will be. But the plan fits together beautifully and several folks have already seen it and loved it. None have been able to suggest changes, only enhancements. > When did Symmes reconfigure the 3-region system into something approximating > the 'Grand Divisions' of yore -- 1956? I call the layout the Eastern Region, though that was likely a later term, as you allude to. > > I look forward to seeing your track plan. I thought you were working in > 3rdPlanIt? > Yes, no, maybe. I have it, but was running on my wife's laptop since I am all-Mac. However, her laptop has no mouse, which makes CAD work challenging, to say the least. I have since acquired a slower Pentium which I could adapt, though I will likely just get Connectix VirtualPC to run on my new PowerMac G4/400 (which can also run PlayStation programs!). --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:14:48 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: [PRR] Loco drawings - from where? I was recently shown a booklet of PRR locomotive drawings. It covers classes M1, K4, L1, G5 (with "federal defects"), C1, I1, H10, N2 (misspelled "Santa Fee"), E2, and a 25000/21000 gallon tender. The E2 contains a note: "This men is the E-2 Class locomotive ... being almost obsolete I am producing it only to show the STEPHENSON VALVE GEAR which is obsolete on this System. Several old features will be noticed, such as, Oil lights..." The drawings were done by Frederick "Abe" Goodrich of Floreffe, PA (south of Pgh), dated 1942. The booklet has no cover. Does anyone have any idea of the origin of this booklet? Is it a Pennsy shop book, or published elsewhere? I copied it, & plan to post it on my site, assuming there are no copyright problems. Thanks in advance. -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:14:24 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion Greetings to Jerry and the group, I too have thought about going down the N scale path. Three things keep me in the HO world. One - My eyesight, Jerry is still a young'n Two - Bowser, hey Jerry, where you going to get your steam locos? Three - Position Light Signals, hey Jerry, where you going to get your signals? Seriously though Jerry, do you have a source of N scale position light signals? If so, let the group know. I'm thinking about a 12x6 foot sectional (three 3x6 foot sections) Pennsy themed layout just to putter around in N. Don't want to scratch build the signals or pay limited run brass prices for them either. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ >"Jerry Britton" wrote: > >Folks, I am converting! Yes, yours truly is switching to N Scale! > >I have collected higher-quality HO stuff for the past 10 years, in >anticipation of building the big layout. However, given recent announcements >of what has or is going to come out in N scale has caused me to rethink. >From an operations and scenic standpoint, I can do so much more in N scale. >I'll have my layout design posted soon. I have yet to install the scanner on >the new computer. >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:21:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Chapter Meeting This Sunday From: Jerry Britton This Sunday there is a meeting of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS at the Yorktowne Hotel in York, Pa., at 1:30 p.m. A representative will be on hand to discuss the new high-speed rail service on Amtrak's "Keystone Corridor". This should be a good program to attend if you are within an hour or so travel time. You need not be a member to attend. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 14:34:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion From: Jerry Britton On 9/8/00 2:14 PM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: > I too have thought about going down the N scale path. Three things keep me > in the HO world. > > One - My eyesight, Jerry is still a young'n > > Two - Bowser, hey Jerry, where you going to get your steam locos? Fortunately I am modeling near the end of steam. As Bill Lewis's collection attests, there is a decent selection on brass. Since I won't need many, guess I'll have to save! > > Three - Position Light Signals, hey Jerry, where you going to get your > signals? Signals, did the PRR use signals? Haven't gotten that far yet. For your benefit, as addressed in point #1, perhaps I should use HO signals? > > Seriously though Jerry, do you have a source of N scale position light > signals? If so, let the group know. I'm thinking about a 12x6 foot > sectional (three 3x6 foot sections) Pennsy themed layout just to putter > around in N. Don't want to scratch build the signals or pay limited run > brass prices for them either. > No source yet, but I haven't looked. However, I've already gotten a few detail builders to line up things in N scale. A lot will be coming, but I hate announcing things before their time! I have already announced the passenger car sides from Laser Horizons. There are 13 smoothsides to start, with more promised. I can also tell you that B-60b's are on the way, as well as P-70kr's. More heavyweights are likely. In time... If only Red Caboose would pump out some more N cars...they have only two N cars available at this time and none are PRR!!! Looks like the MoW 4-pack got postponed; I'll need to confirm. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 14:55:26 -0400 To Drew, Jerry and the group: Burt Industries, Altamonte Springs, Florida, was producing N-scale position light signals, along with other signals, vehicles, and structures, but have not seen an ad anywhere recently. NJ International produces a position light signal but it is grossly overscale. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Drew McGhee" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 2:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion > Greetings to Jerry and the group, > > I too have thought about going down the N scale path. Three things keep me > in the HO world. > > One - My eyesight, Jerry is still a young'n > > Two - Bowser, hey Jerry, where you going to get your steam locos? > > Three - Position Light Signals, hey Jerry, where you going to get your > signals? > > Seriously though Jerry, do you have a source of N scale position light > signals? If so, let the group know. I'm thinking about a 12x6 foot > sectional (three 3x6 foot sections) Pennsy themed layout just to putter > around in N. Don't want to scratch build the signals or pay limited run > brass prices for them either. > > Drew R. McGhee > Altoona, PA > drm6@psu.edu > http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ > > > > >"Jerry Britton" wrote: > > > >Folks, I am converting! Yes, yours truly is switching to N Scale! > > > >I have collected higher-quality HO stuff for the past 10 years, in > >anticipation of building the big layout. However, given recent announcements > >of what has or is going to come out in N scale has caused me to rethink. > >From an operations and scenic standpoint, I can do so much more in N scale. > >I'll have my layout design posted soon. I have yet to install the scanner on > >the new computer. > > > >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 15:02:03 -0400 Jerry: For N scale PRR freight cars, don't forget Fine N Scale. They make X29's, X31's, X31a's, and X32's, all of the truly distinctive PRR boxcars! They are a little more complicated than "shaking the Box" and do require painting, but are spectacular models, down to waviness in the side sheets. Gregg Mahlkov. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Drew McGhee" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion > On 9/8/00 2:14 PM, Drew McGhee (drm6@psu.edu) wrote: > > > I too have thought about going down the N scale path. Three things keep me > > in the HO world. > > > > One - My eyesight, Jerry is still a young'n > > > > Two - Bowser, hey Jerry, where you going to get your steam locos? > > Fortunately I am modeling near the end of steam. As Bill Lewis's collection > attests, there is a decent selection on brass. Since I won't need many, > guess I'll have to save! > > > > Three - Position Light Signals, hey Jerry, where you going to get your > > signals? > > Signals, did the PRR use signals? Haven't gotten that far yet. For your > benefit, as addressed in point #1, perhaps I should use HO signals? > > > > Seriously though Jerry, do you have a source of N scale position light > > signals? If so, let the group know. I'm thinking about a 12x6 foot > > sectional (three 3x6 foot sections) Pennsy themed layout just to putter > > around in N. Don't want to scratch build the signals or pay limited run > > brass prices for them either. > > > No source yet, but I haven't looked. However, I've already gotten a few > detail builders to line up things in N scale. A lot will be coming, but I > hate announcing things before their time! > > I have already announced the passenger car sides from Laser Horizons. There > are 13 smoothsides to start, with more promised. I can also tell you that > B-60b's are on the way, as well as P-70kr's. More heavyweights are likely. > In time... > > If only Red Caboose would pump out some more N cars...they have only two N > cars available at this time and none are PRR!!! Looks like the MoW 4-pack > got postponed; I'll need to confirm. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 15:27:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion From: Jerry Britton On 9/8/00 3:18 PM, Joel Akers (j83@mindspring.com) wrote: > Jerry, Red Caboose has released several boxcars in N for PRR. Here is a link > to my favorite hobby shop to give you an idea of what they have released: > http://www.nscalesupply.com/RED/RED-X-29BoxCar.html > > Hope this helps. > Thanks, Joel, but I am a Red Caboose dealer. I such am well aware of what they have released. But do you know what is actually AVAILABLE in X-29's? Only two cars: Boston & Maine and Chicago Great Western. All other X-29's are either "Out of Stock" or "Future Release". Geez! Then there's MicroTrains, which comes out with a PRR car every now and then, but with only one road number!!! Sure wish Bowser would do N scale hoppers!!! In time, I suppose. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 8 Sep 2000 13:02:06 -0700 From: dfresh20@erols.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion X-Sent-From: dfresh20@myway.com Jerry, While there aren't any H21s or H25s (I WISH!! I WISH!!), Micro-Trains two-bay hopper is a fair representation of the H31. All it really needs is the external brake line that were on this class. A couple of lift rings and some bronze wire takes care of that. They also have a composite hopper around, which can stand in for the H31B. Too many boards (I think that M-T scribed thinner boards than PRR used.) Again, needs that external brake line. The painted versions are hard to find, but the undecs can be used. Problem is that there weren't that many of these cars - 1,200 or so. The M-T twin can also be kitbashed to a GLa, of which there were tens of thousands. Finally finished my first one, although unpainted right now. I feel an article coming on and want to shoot some photos with the styrene and brass additions unpainted and blended in. You can kitbash a Life-like NE caboose to an N5 cabin - but then Bowser's N5 ought to be out any time now. Dave Freshwater North Potomac, MD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 08 Sep 00 16:13:37 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion --====56515155555055554850===1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply to: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion Jerry Britton wrote: >Plan will be online soon. Includes: > >* Philadelphia Division - featuring Harrisburg Passenger Station an >adjoining REA and freight facilities; working connection to the Northern >Central Branch (to staging) and Cumberland Valley Branch (to staging); >Rockville Bridge with all four legs active, working connection to >Williamsport Division (to staging) and Enola (to staging); BANKS tower >reuniting all lines; > >* Middle Division - series of yet-to-be-determined interlockings to align >trains properly for "the mountain". Likely to include VIEW, WORKS, and = ALTO; > >* Mountain Division - Kittanning Point, Horseshoe Curve, MG, the >Allegrippus, Bennington Curve, The Slide, Tunnel Hill, Gallitzin (w/= helper >loop), MO, working connection with Irvonia Branch (to staging) and Black >Lick Secondary (to staging), and helper facility. > Sounds impressive! Also, expensive, but that's your problem... A "lifetime layout", certainly. I can't think of a better subject for modeling in N = scale, though. You only have one life, might as well grab for all the gusto you can! Is this going to be some sort of club? Sounds like a lot of track to lay...= You have lots and lots of staging planned-for, too. I hope your staging will be visible, or at least open and accessible from = above. Hidden staging under other layout components that form an impenetrable '= ceiling' over the staging tracks is not what you want to do, I can attest to this = from personal = experience. I'm trying to build up the ambition to reconfigure my layout = to 'daylight' a staging yard I built that way. As I said in an earlier post when you first broached this plan: be sure to = give = yourself enough aisle space, for the number of operators that will be = required to keep this beast running (unless you're planning some kind of C/MRI = automatic train control -- powered by a Mac, of course -- for at least some of the = main line = traffic to keep The Broad Way's rails polished). I tend to start skimping = on the aisles in order to cram in one more operational goody, too, but in your = case you = may end up with aisles where you get to know your fellow operators far = better = than you ever wanted to. Have you thought-through the number of operators that will be required to give at least a representation of the traffic = density on the mains you're modeling? Were you planning on letting the Layout Design SIG members review your = plan, = (though most of them seemed to be single-iron timetable and train order = fanatics, vs. heavy-duty multiple track operations kinds of folks -- I = know some of the PRR-talk members are also on the LDSIG list, so no offense meant)? = To me, heavy traffic in great variety is the essence of Pennsy's Lines = East mains, = and is exciting to watch and participate in running. Counting the = cornstalks while = sitting in a siding in Humdinger, Indiana waiting for a meet just doesn't = have the = same thrill, to me. But I guess it's all a matter of your "personal = objectives", isn't it? And it's the "Irvona" branch... no second "i". ;<) -- Doug Drew --====56515155555055554850===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 

         Reply to:   Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion
Jerry Britton = wrote:

<snip>

>Plan = will be online soon. Includes:
>
>* = Philadelphia Division - featuring Harrisburg = Passenger Station an
>adjoining REA = and freight facilities; working connection = to the Northern
>Central Branch (to = staging) and Cumberland Valley Branch (to = staging);
>Rockville Bridge with all = four legs active, working connection to
>Williamsport = Division (to staging) and Enola (to staging); = BANKS tower
>reuniting all lines;
>
>* = Middle Division - series of yet-to-be-determined = interlockings to align
>trains properly = for "the mountain". Likely to = include VIEW, WORKS, and ALTO;
>
>* = Mountain Division - Kittanning Point, Horseshoe = Curve, MG, the
>Allegrippus, Bennington = Curve, The Slide, Tunnel Hill, Gallitzin = (w/helper
>loop), MO, working connection = with Irvonia Branch (to staging) and Black
>Lick = Secondary (to staging), and helper facility.
>

Sounds = impressive! Also, expensive, but that's = your problem... A "lifetime
layout", = certainly. I can't think of a better subject = for modeling in N scale, though.
You only = have one life, might as well grab for all = the gusto you can!

Is this going to = be some sort of club? Sounds like a lot = of track to lay...
You have lots and lots = of staging planned-for, too.

I hope = your staging will be visible, or at least = open and accessible from above.
Hidden = staging under other layout components that = form an impenetrable 'ceiling'
over the = staging tracks is not what you want to do, = I can attest to this from personal
experience. = I'm trying to build up the ambition to reconfigure = my layout to 'daylight'
a staging yard = I built that way.

As I said in an earlier = post when you first broached this plan: = be sure to give
yourself enough aisle = space, for the number of operators that = will be required
to keep this beast running = (unless you're planning some kind of C/MRI = automatic
train control -- powered by = a Mac, of course -- for at least some of = the main line
traffic to keep The Broad = Way's rails polished). I tend to start skimping = on the
aisles in order to cram in one = more operational goody, too, but in your = case you
may end up with aisles where = you get to know your fellow operators far = better
than you ever wanted to. Have = you thought-through the number of operators
that = will be required to give at least a representation = of the traffic density on
the mains you're = modeling?

Were you planning on letting = the Layout Design SIG members review your = plan,
(though most of them seemed to = be single-iron timetable and train order =
fanatics, vs. heavy-duty multiple track = operations kinds of folks -- I know some
of = the PRR-talk members are also on the LDSIG = list, so no offense meant)?
To me, heavy = traffic in great variety is the essence = of Pennsy's Lines East mains,
and is exciting = to watch and participate in running. Counting = the cornstalks while
sitting in a siding = in Humdinger, Indiana waiting for a meet = just doesn't have the
same thrill, to = me. But I guess it's all a matter of your = "personal objectives", isn't it?

And = it's the "Irvona" branch... no = second "i". ;<)

-- Doug = Drew --====56515155555055554850===1-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:20:07 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] NUFF said... B&O Baggage on PRR Ben and all, Ben Writes: >From the photographic evidence I've been piecing together, railroad-owned head end equipment interchange tended to occur between railroads on complimentary east- west or north-south routes (examples seen include PRR B60s, R50s and express X29s on the Santa Fe; DL&W baggage cars on NYC trains west of Buffalo; MoPac cars on St. Louis trains, and New Haven, Seaboard, and ACL cars in trains on the NE Corridor). [Major Snippage] Santa Fe and UP also exchanged sleepers as well. Ben Hom Ben has nailed it here folks... Now you can do as you like it is your hobby. However; could a Railraod afford to pay prediem on a PASSENGER car (to the other carrier) and make money on the haul? The government would have a fit, remember this was a regulated industry. Not impossible, but not probable, when contract mail and express could go in a 60 foot express box (X-42). Do as you like but if it was not a connecting carrier haul it would not happen, unless the cars were being leased. Anyone have any evidence of this? But each railroads fleets usually mirrored the others in traffic patterns and business levels (if Pennsy was busy, usually the B&O was too). Gary, I would not do it. Buy a Santa Fe baggage , that I would find more believable. Just my thoughts, realism isn't just something you see in miniature... it's also the ideal... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:58:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: The big conversion From: Jerry Britton On 9/8/00 4:13 PM, Doug Drew at (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > Is this going to be some sort of club? Private, but open to many friends, all of whom volunteer to help with construction. > Sounds like a lot of track to lay... > You have lots and lots of staging planned-for, too. 18+ tracks of 36+' long. Should be good for 54 trains or so. > > I hope your staging will be visible, or at least open and accessible from > above. > Hidden staging under other layout components that form an impenetrable > 'ceiling' > over the staging tracks is not what you want to do, I can attest to this from > personal experience. I'm trying to build up the ambition to reconfigure my > layout to 'daylight' > a staging yard I built that way. It will be accessible but under the layout. My HO plan had over the layout staging and I built a full-size mockup. In N, under the layout should work fine. > > As I said in an earlier post when you first broached this plan: be sure to > give yourself enough aisle space, for the number of operators that will be > required > to keep this beast running (unless you're planning some kind of C/MRI > automatic > train control -- powered by a Mac, of course -- for at least some of the > main line traffic to keep The Broad Way's rails polished). I tend to start > skimping on the > aisles in order to cram in one more operational goody, too, but in your case > you may end up with aisles where you get to know your fellow operators far > better than you ever wanted to. Have you thought-through the number of > operators > that will be required to give at least a representation of the traffic density > on > the mains you're modeling? Descriptions of operators have been on the layout's web site for awhile. There will be a Dispatcher using WinLok CTC software in the next room. True, the PRR did not have CTC to this extent in 1954, but the Eastern Region will. Aisles are never narrower than 3' and some spots are as wide as 5'. No duckunders. > > Were you planning on letting the Layout Design SIG members review your plan, > (though most of them seemed to be single-iron timetable and train order > fanatics, vs. heavy-duty multiple track operations kinds of folks -- I know > some > of the PRR-talk members are also on the LDSIG list, so no offense meant)? To > me, heavy traffic in great variety is the essence of Pennsy's Lines East > mains, and is exciting to watch and participate in running. Counting the > cornstalks while sitting in a siding in Humdinger, Indiana waiting for a meet > just doesn't have the same thrill, to me. But I guess it's all a matter of > your "personal objectives", isn't it? The LDSIG review will be instrumental...but it will be easier for them to review once I have the plans online, don't you think? ;-) > > And it's the "Irvona" branch... no second "i". ;<) > Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 15:20:51 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale PRR signals (was The big conversion) From: "Doug and Marianne" > Seriously though Jerry, do you have a source of N scale position lights? Drew: The Bachman n scale signal bridge is a dead ringer for eastern PRR signal bridges. I used these, removed the signals, and added scratch-built styrene PRR possition lights, which were relatively simple to build. The signals are painted on, but for someone that is more electrically inclined than I am, creating working position lights should not be too difficult using LED's or perhaps fiber optics. This is part of the fun of N scale. You can see photos of my n scale PRR signal bridges at: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=637118&a=4647088 By the way, when considering modeling challenges in standard guage N scale, you might check out the work that is done by the Nn3 (narrow guage N scale) folks. They had several exhibits at the San Jose National Train Show last month, with most of their work being scratchbuilt or craftsman kits. What they do in Nn3, will make most projects in N scale standard guage seem easy. Doug Nelson Mill Valley, CA babal@slip.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Interlocking Tower List, I have a nice photo of PRR Interlocking Tower "WYE". It kind of looks like the Tower made by Gloor Craft but not exactly. Where was this tower located at? There are some slight rolling hills in the background. Is this in Central or Eastern Pa? Any ideas?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Interlocking Tower Date: Fri, 8 Sep 100 21:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Gary Mittner scribit: > I have a nice photo of PRR Interlocking Tower "WYE". It kind of > looks like the Tower made by Gloor Craft but not exactly. Where was this > tower located at? There are some slight rolling hills in the background. > Is this in Central or Eastern Pa? Any ideas?....Gary It was located in Hollidaysburg, Pa., where the New Portage and the Hollidaysburg & Petersburg branches met. Westward from Harrisburg, Lewistown, and Huntington, the main line arrives at Petersburg. Here the PRR chose the alignment of the *Little* Juniata River, rather than the (regular) Juniata River, which the original canal (Main Line of Public Works) followed. (See http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Engrrept/engr_rept.html .) Thus, the PRR went on northwestwardly to Spruce Creek and Tyrone before turning southwest/south to Altoona. The canal, and later the H&P Branch, followed the Juniata to Hollidaysburg, where, at WYE tower, a branch from ALTO tower in Altoona joined in. From this location, the New Portage Branch went west, crossing over old original US 22 on the Mule Shoe Curve, turned north, and joined the main line just east of the tunnels, at SF interlocking. See also http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Fan/guide_altoona.html . Hope this helps. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower Mark, Thanks for the detailed location. Someone emailed me a minute ago and mentioned Holidaysburg too. I can see the single track that merges, this is probably the line to Alto? The photo I have appears to be a 1955ish fan trip?. Can't see the loco power. Photo may have been taken from 2nd car vestibule. The Tower operator is holding a hoop for order pickup on the fly. There are other people standing around the tower too. Thanks again, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:58:09 -0400 I believe WYE tower is the tower at the wye bridge in Oil City, PA, on the PRR's Chautauqua branch (northwest PA). The following photo shows the bridge, with the tower in the lower left: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/oilc_2.jpg Other Oil City photos are at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/oilcity.htm ---- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Gary Mittner To: Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 9:06 PM Subject: [PRR] Interlocking Tower > List, > > I have a nice photo of PRR Interlocking Tower "WYE". It kind of > looks like the Tower made by Gloor Craft but not exactly. Where was this > tower located at? There are some slight rolling hills in the background. > Is this in Central or Eastern Pa? Any ideas?....Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!......... > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower Jerry, That very well may be a "WYE" Tower also but it is not the same setting as my photo. There is a street near the rear of WYE Tower in my photo. The photo on your site shows a WYE track and a river. In my photo the one track I see that veeres off crosses that street. No river in site......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:21:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower Without pulling out a map to verify, I think Wye was actually located in Duncansville. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] Newest Keystone Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:44:54 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C019E6.684E2C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm a new member of the PRRT&HS and only received the Keystone published = around the time of the convention.... early May I think. Has another = edition been published yet or am I just being over anxious? Thanks, Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C019E6.684E2C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm a new member of the PRRT&HS and only = received the=20 Keystone published around the time of the convention.... early May I=20 think.  Has another edition been published yet or am I just being = over=20 anxious?
 
Thanks,
 
Kris
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C019E6.684E2C60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 22:48:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower Hanging around DN Tower in Verona and listening to the dispatcher line (there weren't many trains!), I recall hearing the name Bridge. A check of Conemaugh Division Timetable No. 4 dated 4/26/53 shows Bridge as an Interlocking, Interlocking Station and Block Station with trainphone. It was located at milepost 132.3 (Distance from 11th St. Pittsburgh). The same timetable shows the Chautauqua Branch terminating at Bridge at milepost 138.4 as measured from Buffalo. I remember PB-2 (Buffalo-Pitcairn) came through Verona late in the evening and if he passed Bridge before 6 or 7 PM, I would be able see it before 10:00 PM curfew! It appears that the tower in the photo is Bridge. In a message dated 9/8/00 8:59:10 PM Central Daylight Time, geshick@velocity.net writes: > Subj: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower > Date: 9/8/00 8:59:10 PM Central Daylight Time > From: geshick@velocity.net (Jerry Shickler) > Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Reply-to: geshick@velocity.net (Jerry Shickler) > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > I believe WYE tower is the tower at the wye bridge in Oil City, PA, on the > PRR's Chautauqua branch (northwest PA). The following photo shows the > bridge, with the tower in the lower left: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/oilc_2.jpg > Other Oil City photos are at: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/oilcity.htm > > ---- > Jerry Shickler > Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: > http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gary Mittner > To: > Sent: Friday, September 08, 2000 9:06 PM > Subject: [PRR] Interlocking Tower > > > > List, > > > > I have a nice photo of PRR Interlocking Tower "WYE". It kind of > > looks like the Tower made by Gloor Craft but not exactly. Where was this > > tower located at? There are some slight rolling hills in the background. > > Is this in Central or Eastern Pa? Any ideas?....Gary > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > > Work!......... > > http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 > > and...... > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 23:19:28 -0400 From: DDembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Newest Keystone --------------192D4205E51409A24E39C03E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's due about mid-September here in Ohio. Previous emails on this topic indicate that there is a definite east-to-west delivery schedule, probably driven by the distance from the publisher and the class of mail used. A big hats off to the editorial crew of the Keystone. Although it is a volunteer organization, they are dedicated to its timely publishing to the extent that we can estimate the arrival of this fine journal with a fair amount of confidence.(Even knowing roughly when it should come out, I get over anxious too, because it is such a treat to read!) Kris Kollar wrote: > I'm a new member of the PRRT&HS and only received the Keystone published around the time > of the convention.... early May I think. Has another edition been published yet or am I > just being over anxious? Thanks, Kris --------------192D4205E51409A24E39C03E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's due about mid-September here in Ohio.  Previous emails on this topic indicate that there is a definite east-to-west delivery schedule, probably driven by the distance from the publisher and the class of mail used.

A big hats off to the editorial crew of the Keystone.  Although it is a volunteer organization, they are dedicated to its timely publishing to the extent that we can estimate the arrival of this fine journal with a fair amount of confidence.(Even knowing roughly when it should come out, I get over anxious too, because it is such a treat to read!)

Kris Kollar wrote:

I'm a new member of the PRRT&HS and only received the Keystone published around the time of the convention.... early May I think.  Has another edition been published yet or am I just being over anxious? Thanks, Kris
--------------192D4205E51409A24E39C03E-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 23:20:10 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: [PRR] Re: B&O Baggage on PRR [PRR] Bobspf@aol.com wrote on 9/8/00 4:21 am: >I also thought some of those fishbelly (milk?) cars in >videos of the late 30's were NYC cars, but pretty hard to >tell. There is speculation on another list that those are ex-Merchants Dispatch cars sold to REA. No proof as yet. Some are milk cars and some are not, based on the presence of roof hatches. They show up on the Curve in one or more of the "Glory" videos. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] DGLE Date: Fri, 8 Sep 2000 21:02:25 -0700 Does anyone know if Accupaint (not Accuflex) makes the PRR Dark Green Locomotive Enamel? I looked through the Walther site and didn't see any listed. Is the Scale Coat II "Brunswick Green" a good match? Thanks, Gene Deimling PRRT&HS #6418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 00:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Gene, Not sure of Accupaint. I use Scalecoat "Brunswick Green". I think it is too green as is. I mix it with Scale Coat Loco Black to get the shade of DGLE I am after. My version is pretty dark but you can still see the difference when compared to the Black portions of the Loco, ie, the frame and other items as well as the Tender Frame and Trucks. When ever the loco is weathered, it further blends everything to more or less one color. But in the outside sunlight and when viewing close up, you can still see a drop of green. It is all in the eye of the models owner.........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!......... http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 18:45:10 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] Horeshoe Track Diagrams Hi to everyone, I'm looking for any detailed track diagrams of the section of track between Altoona and Gallitzin (Including the two braches at the Curve) I am researching for a new club exhibition layout in N scale and would like to have it as realistic as possible. Thanks Mick Pennsy Australia's No:1 SPF Happy Rails ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 05:40:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower From: Jerry Britton On 9/8/00 10:21 PM, JDPanza@aol.com at (JDPanza@aol.com) wrote: > Without pulling out a map to verify, I think Wye was actually located in > Duncansville. > Yes, south of Altoona. A connecting branch came south out of Altoona to WYE tower where a train could head east to Holidaysburg or west up ? branch around MuleShoe Curve (similar to Horseshoe but smaller) and rejoin the main line at Tunnel Hill. This was the track that ducked under "The Slide" just before the tunnels. This connection was removed when the Rt. 22 highway was built over the mountian. The highway follows some of the old RoW opposite the mainline on the ridge as it heads uphill. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:30:42 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Newest Keystone Kris Kollar wrote: > I'm a new member of the PRRT&HS and only received the Keystone > published around the time of the convention.... early May I think. > Has another edition been published yet or am I just being over > anxious? Thanks, Kris Kris, There are 4 Keystone issues published each year; Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. The latest was mailed back in late June/early July. The Spring cover has a color drawing of a streamlined K4 at Harrisburg. The Summer issue has a head-on color drawing of K4#3750. Whichever you're missing, please contact: PRRT&HS P.O. Box 712, Altoona, PA 16603-0712 Best, Bill Morlitz, Website Superintendent PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 07:32:07 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Newest Keystone Kris Kollar wrote: > I'm a new member of the PRRT&HS and only received the Keystone > published around the time of the convention.... early May I think. > Has another edition been published yet or am I just being over > anxious? Thanks, Kris Opps. That website address is Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 07:28:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] TYRONE STATION DEDICATION The borough of Tyrone will hold a dedication ceremony at 10:00 AM Monday (September 11) for the nearly completed "Tyrone Historic Railroad Park and Bud Shuster Intermodal Transportation Center". According to reports in the Altoona Mirror, "the project had been delayed for several years because of lack of funding. It has been greatly scaled down from the multimillion-dollar project first proposed in the early 1990's." (But, they did a good job on the present design). "When first proposed, the project was to include a historic station, an observation tower, a museum, shops and outdoor recreation facilities. However, the scaled-down version includes the station, two historic cabooses, a gazebo, a brick memorial wall covered with a canopy, fencing, benches and landscaping for train enthusiasts." "U. S. Rep. Bud Shuster, R-9th District, was instrumental in providing about $400,000 for the project through the Intermnodal Surface Transportation Efficiency Act." David Seidel Altoona, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Scott Charlesworth" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 08:25:51 -0400 The branch you are referring to is the New Portage branch. The H&P branch from Petersburg actually kept going right in to Alto. At one time there were pedestal type signals on all legs of the wye...and a signal bridge just east of the tower. My grandmother lived right up the street from it. I only remember seeing the tower in PC green and it was torn down(1981 or 1984??) before I started taking pictures . One of last years Keystones had it on the front cover. I think it was the summer issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2000 5:40 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower > On 9/8/00 10:21 PM, JDPanza@aol.com at (JDPanza@aol.com) wrote: > > > Without pulling out a map to verify, I think Wye was actually located in > > Duncansville. > > > Yes, south of Altoona. A connecting branch came south out of Altoona to WYE > tower where a train could head east to Holidaysburg or west up ? branch > around MuleShoe Curve (similar to Horseshoe but smaller) and rejoin the main > line at Tunnel Hill. This was the track that ducked under "The Slide" just > before the tunnels. This connection was removed when the Rt. 22 highway was > built over the mountian. The highway follows some of the old RoW opposite > the mainline on the ridge as it heads uphill. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 10:08:11 -0400 From: ours Subject: [PRR] cabin marker lamps(prototype) Can anyone tell me when the Pennsy started using the four lense-square body marker and what color lenses are associated with a given time, I have one I found in Altoona that has a manufacturers mark on it (looks almost like Cox, not really like the Corning no-nex) and one red lense with three green lenses all 5" with Corning markings, I guess before the Pennsy made them. I have another with one red lense and three amber also 5", the major difference in between is the part numbers on brackets, the locking mechanism, and the older one with the green lenses has a flame above the door. Any info on who made them and when would be helpful. Also, when did the switch from four lense to one lense take place, and how about the switch from kero to the McDermott lights? Does anyone know how many models of the electric markers (McDermott) did the Pennsy have, I have one with a bail and only a red lense(also labled N.W.REG. RETURN CHICAGO on reverse blank cover), plus others that do not have the bail and amber lense opposite the red. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 09:02:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] cabin marker lamps(prototype) --- ours wrote: > Can anyone tell me when the Pennsy started using the > four lense-square > body marker and what color lenses are associated > with a given time Several months ago this came up on this list. Someone said he had or had seen an order dated sometime in 1917 (or was it '18?) (My uncertainty, not his) setting the date for "out with the green, in with the amber" on the Philadelphia Div. It wasn't known whether that was the the date for the whole PRR or just that division. As I recall there have been three or so episodes of questions about marker lamp colors. Should be some data in the archive at: http://www.eclipse.net/~cobrandt/search.htm ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 14:07:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Interlocking Tower If anyone wants to see what the tower looked like in PC days painted a horrible green. Stop by the Wye Motor lodge just accross the street from where the tower used to be. The owner of the Motor lodge has a color picture of the tower right in the lobby. Also the Gloor Craft HO model is of Jacks tower in Mt Union. ------------------------ Ken McCorry --------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 13:05:27 -0700 From: MariaJo+Dale Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/NYC on the Elmira Branch Mike Morrow wrote: > According to Caloroso's book, the PRR and NYC had some sort of run > through arrangement into Southport Yard in Elmira. Can anyone on the > list elaborate more on these operations and or head me in the right > direction to find out more about it such as the correct NYC ETT or other > source? Thanks > > Mike Morrow > PRRT&HS #6703 > The Elmira Branch 1956-57 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". I thin