From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:54:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCB63.E2C62320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone. Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through = Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back = down to Horseshoe Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys = who reside in these areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury = area to know where I can find traces of the PRR to photograph? I'm = pretty familiar with the Curve...but I have never been to Sunbury or = Williamsport...any suggestions? Regards All. Bob Holden. PRRT&HS # 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCB63.E2C62320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone.

Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through=20 Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back = down to=20 Horseshoe Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys who = reside in=20 these areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury area to know = where I can=20 find traces of the PRR to photograph? I'm pretty familiar with the = Curve...but I=20 have never been to Sunbury or Williamsport...any suggestions?

Regards All.

Bob Holden.

PRRT&HS # 5044

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCB63.E2C62320-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 01:29:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Steel Mill Questions In a message dated 00-05-31 22:44:55 EDT, you write: << Did the PRR or the Reading service Allan Wood Steel in Conshohocken PA? What was the name of Phoenix Steel in Claymont Delaware in the late 50's and who serviced it? >> Both the PRR and the RDG served Allan Wood. The RDG from their mainline directly and the PRR from a branch that connected with the Trenton Cutoff. The PRR had a middle siding at Howellville on the cutoff called the westbound back off siding. This siding was in fact a 1 mile long crossover. Since the PRR could only access the branch to the plant from the EB main this siding was used for WB trains to drop off their AWS traffic so the local from Thorndale could pick it up on it's EB move to the branch. The plant ceased operations in 1977 I believe. The coke works lasted about another ten years. Some of the rolling mills on the north bank of the river are still being operated by Beth/Lukens. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 03:02:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] EMD PRR F5's Stu, Bill and listers, I actually wonder if those that say the Pennsy did not have F5's know the spotting features of the F 5 if they saw a photo of one? Could they really tell? Let me quote David Peck and Roger Boor in their article in Mainline Modeler Jan/Feb 1982, "EMD very quickly lost the unique designation of F 2 and later F 5. F2's became F-3's, F5's later became F-7's; however that doesn't necessarily mean the units were rebuilt or changed from their original F 2 or F 5 configuration." This article and the proceeding articles were very comprehensive studies on the F-units not meant to duplicate the work that Extra 2200 South had done on the subject almost ten years prior. What are the spotting features of the F 5 and how are they different from the F 3, can anyone tell me how to tell from a picture? I can't and I am doing an incredible amount of research on the EMD F-UINTS for several up coming articles. Some Pennsy, some not. With the information I have gathered and the photo research on the F 5 (and I will tell you some of the prettiest F5's were the Rio Grande units #5561(A), 5562(B), 5563(B), 5564(A)) I cannot tell from a picture, but you can from the builders dates and if you were a diesel mechanic you could because the changes were inside, an upgraded generator and F 3 traction motors. Tell me again how to spot them in a photo of a Pennsy engine on the high Iron at 40 MPH, please. From the numbers... It is pointless to try to model the difference in an F 3 phase 4 and the F 5... four 36" diameter fans, twin parallel dynamic brake screened vents, horizontal stainless grills, and most important delivered from late in September 1948 to late in January and early February 1949. That makes the following units F5's: 9542 thru 9555 inclusive and 9679 thru 9689 inclusive. Hey wait, I was told by an expert that Pennsy did not buy F5's though? Yea right... I'm no expert and I am not always right [but my wife is 3^) ] but I did a little research on the subject. The information is out there if you know where to look. And I think, but I will not swear to the fact that some of the last F5's received a 36" diameter fan in place of the dynamic brake exhaust vents, but I need to recheck my color EMD builders photo and get back to you guys. Just remember to do the research and don't take one persons word on a subject, form your own conclusions. I only wish that in all the archives out there someone would have had enough brains to save a few Purchase Orders from the Motive Power guys during the transition period. So if you want to model an F 5, then pick one of the above numbers and buy a Stewart F 3 phase 4 shell (s) (from your dealer) and pick up a the matching number of Bachmann Plus F 7 B-units from Train World (10 bucks plus shipping) slap them babies together and for about 30 bucks or less you can have a Pennsy F 5 that runs almost as good as a KATO (some say as good, check the reviews in RMJ) and laugh all the way to the bank... Greg Martin mostly a rivet counter, sometimes not ... but Outlawed by NMRA Cajon Div ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:07:54 -0400 From: demcneil Subject: [PRR] RE: Window trim on a T1 Sam, I can't answer for the J1 and all T1's, but on 6110 the window trim appears to be aluminum or stainless steel. This is based on the full page builder's photo in color at Eddystone found on page 14 of Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World Vol. 1 bu Plant & Yanosey. That picture and the following page are simply the best color pictures I've seen of any "NEW" power. The rest of the painted trim and lettering appears to be "Dulux Gold" . This is the scheme with the 4 stripes on the tender and the large encircled Keystone at the back end of the tender. Hope this helps, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:26:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F5's a factory designation, not PRR's. In a message dated 5/30/2000 3:47:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Anyone who attended the GP session at the PRRT&HS Convention was witness to what almost became a fight!>> A very near miss. This discussion/argument unfortunately broke out during the presentation on GP7's and GP's. Immediately after the slide show ended, a spot near my chair was the site of an encounter between those eager souls who "knew" the Pennsy had no F-5's, and those who "knew" they did.... << An attendee was claiming that the PRR had F5's. The speaker claimed otherwise, that the PRR had only F-3's and F-7's. The attendee claimed that the engineers at EMD referred internally to the Phase III F-3's as F-5's. Who knows who is right, but I found it interesting that in Sweetland's new book one of the captions makes the same claim almost verbatim!!! >> As all involved discovered within a few hours, Sweetland's book accurately points out F-5 as a "manufacturing and engineering" designation, meaningful inside the plant. But this means that EMD sales people, customer railroads, and quite possibly EMD field service people would NOT use the F-5 moniker. A simple test -- have you ever seen an EMD operator's manual for an F-5? I haven't. As has been pointed out elsewhere, the F-5 is a minor variant of the phase four F-3. If I understand correctly, the higher-capacity-design F-7 traction motors were ready early, and were shipped on a bunch of F-3's, making them F-5's to the factory (but not necessarily anyone else). What this means to us is that a batch of the F-3 helpers that PRR bought and called EH-15's were actually running around with a better traction motor. Since the units still had 567B prime movers and the usual F-3 traction generator, it's questionable whether this meant anything performance-wise. Perhaps there was a lower rate of traction motor failure. But this was mainly an opportunity to get the new traction motor tested out in the field. 4. I don't have a late enough Form 109, but it would be interesting to know if this variance in traction motor was even tracked in PRR's motive power records. 5. I decline to join the argument as to whether these PRR "F-5" units were externally distinguishable from their straight F-3 bretheren, but I will repeat the caution that a picture of a unit is your best friend. As always, EMD made most detail changes when they were ready to, not necessarily at the time of a major model changeover. Model changeovers are almost always built around a major "guts" change (prime mover, generator, electrical cabinet), and we're just lucky that this often means a different capacity radiator or some other "styling" change that's externally obvious. 6. By the time the participants in this verbal near-brawl had chewed over all the facts at hand (a process which went on into the next day), I think we all realized we were on the same page -- the F-5 was very real to the folks at the EMD factory (LaGrange Illinois), but not to the customer. Also, I was happy to know that diesel enthusiasts are alive and well in the PRRT&HS -- now if we can just get some of the participants to do more Keystone articles on the diesel fleet. Rick Tipton Who once went to school (and roomed) with engineering coop students from EMD. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Window trim on a T1 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:46:30 EDT I thought that it was kinda gold/silver color, But wasn't sure. Thanks to all that responded. Sam >From: demcneil >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] RE: Window trim on a T1 >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:07:54 -0400 > >Sam, > >I can't answer for the J1 and all T1's, but on 6110 the window trim >appears to be aluminum or stainless steel. This is based on the full >page builder's photo in color at Eddystone found on page 14 of >Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World Vol. 1 bu Plant & Yanosey. >That picture and the following page are simply the best color pictures >I've seen of any "NEW" power. The rest of the painted trim and lettering >appears to be "Dulux Gold" . This is the scheme with the 4 stripes on >the tender and the large encircled Keystone at the back end of the >tender. >Hope this helps, >Dave McNeil > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDGbuff@webtv.net (FrancisinSunbury) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:52:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Division Basically live right beside the tracks. While I am a RDG fan, I am very interested in the PRR as it crossed the RDG in Sunbury and they sometimes ran side by side. What are you looking to see. Traffic is sometimes irregular. Both PRR and RDG (1st electrically lighted in world) have been saved. They are used by businesses but basically refurbished original exteriors. Sunbury is very easy to ge around in as most streets are laid out N/S and E/W. Will have more tonight. Hope to run into yo as I can tell you a lot abot what was and where it was. Francis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: [PRR] Baltimore Steel Mill Questions Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:26:35 -0400 What was the name of the Armco Steel Co. works near Sparrows Point Maryland and who serviced it? There where/are two facilities directly adjacent to the NEC in east Baltimore. Leaving Penn Station northbound (east) and exiting the Union tunnels, about 3-5 miles north side of tracks was Armco at the top of the grade that descended into Orangeville and Bayview yard. They had a small yard off the southbound main. Most of that facility is gone today, but some remnants still remain. They had several mills and an electric furnace(s). It was served directly by the PRR with a number of spurs serving adjacent industries. Although the B&O is close by, I am not sure if it served this plant. The second plant was at the north end of Bayview yard. This is still standing and I think still in production; also an electric furnace shop. There is a scrape yard just off the road near the car repair facility in Bayview. Up here too is the branch that was later built down to the Sparrows Point area; I don't know the date that this branch was built. I don't know much about the switching of this plant, but I do know that the Canton Railroad served it. I am not sure if there was an interchange between the PRR and Canton in this area. The local area is called Eastpoint. Please let me know if anyone knows more of this area and can fill in the gaps or correct my "impression" Later... Conan Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:23:44 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCBBB.D8885740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank You Mark, Ike, Jerry and Rick. This Pennsy trip started with the idea that I would take my wife up to = the Grand Canyon area of Northern Pennsylvania...the Wellsboro area. My = wife was gracious enough to allow some time and days in searching for = regions the Pennsylvania Railroad served. Since we will be in = Harrisburg...I'll get a chance to check out Enola and the new bridge up = near Interstate 81. And then, we're off up 11-15 to the area of = Selinsgrove, Sunbury...and on up to Williamsport. We'll spend some time = up at the 'Grand Canyon' before heading over to Lock Haven...and over to = Renovo then back down the Bald Eagle Branch into Altoona. I would have = loved to do this back in 1952!!!! I'll try to keep in touch with = everyone. taking a digital cam corder...and a 35 mm camera...see what I = can come up with. It is really nice to have a motor home that can tow a = car...! And I believe that if you are going to model a region of the = Pennsy...it is much better to explore the region to get a feel of the = region. Regards, Bob Holden. PRRT&HS 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCBBB.D8885740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank You Mark, Ike, Jerry and Rick.

This Pennsy trip started with the idea that I would take my wife up = to the=20 Grand Canyon area of Northern Pennsylvania...the Wellsboro area. My wife = was=20 gracious enough to allow some time and days in searching for = regions the=20 Pennsylvania Railroad served. Since we will be in Harrisburg...I'll get = a chance=20 to check out Enola and the new bridge up near Interstate 81. And then, = we're off=20 up 11-15 to the area of Selinsgrove, Sunbury...and on up to = Williamsport. We'll=20 spend some time up at the 'Grand Canyon' before heading over to Lock = Haven...and=20 over to Renovo then back down the Bald Eagle Branch into Altoona. I = would have=20 loved to do this back in 1952!!!! I'll try to keep in touch with = everyone.=20 taking a digital cam corder...and a 35 mm camera...see what I can come = up with.=20 It is really nice to have a motor home that can tow a car...! And I = believe that=20 if you are going to model a region of the Pennsy...it is much better to = explore=20 the region to get a feel of the region.

Regards, Bob Holden. PRRT&HS 5044

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCBBB.D8885740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:49:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] F3-F5-F7 Boondogle Jerry, Greg & folks, Funny Jerry should mention the new Sweetland book the other day, as I had just picked it up last saturday, and also noticed the F5 remark in a photo caption. The further mention of an argument (you can't really dignify those encounters as "discussions") that almost erupted into a fight and carried into the next day also rang a familar bell. Even though Pennsy lists and gatherings seem somehow more genial than most, seems they can get pretty bad too. These endless disputes over petty, or even non-existant, points (isn't the term "phase" strictly a railfan invention anyway?)are one of the main reasons I studiously avoid most fan gatherings, fantrips and public shows, as well as email lists. (Again let me mention a far higher than average standard that seems to prevail in things Pennsy. The B&O list is pretty decent, too, as is the Reading). But boy oh boy does it get old, and after fourty odd years of modeling/fanning I still can't comprehend it. You oughta see and hear the GN vs NP crowd some alcohol-enhanced evening....you'd think Pennsy and NYC were the best of affiliates! Oh well, guess that's what friends are for, so ya got someone to hang with and stay out of these fanatical frays. Hang in there guys. Say, just what color were firemen's bandanas on the second Millville local in July, '54 anyway..... Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:55:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Division Bob, When you're in Williamsport, you Have to stay at the Thomas Lightfoot Inn. Unless the rates have really gone up, it's a bargain, and a great resturant to boot. Also make a trip to the Bowser hobby shop in Montoursville, in "suburban" Williamsport. That old inn will make your wife happy, to be sure Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: RE: [PRR] Northern Division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:25:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BFCBC4.6EA1F6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Take lots a film * In Sunbury you will want to go to the middle of town and get a picture of where the railroad came through the middle of town. You will also want to see where the PRR and the Reading had a diamond crossing. You can find it because the old Reading Railroad bridge over the Susquehanna will come into Sunbury. Follow it and you will see where they use to cross. The PRR I still believe goes out of Sunbury northeast towards Shamokin. It will follow Rt61 eventually. Go to the North end of town and you can find where the railroad goes. * You can go to the north end of town and also see where the PRR crosses the Susquehanna from Sunbury into Northumberland. Be sure you go to the old PRR Railroad Passenger station in Northumberland. They have an old passenger car and I believe a N5C caboose there. Both are fully restored. There is a restaurant there that you can also eat at. There is hardly anything left to the old yard at Northumberland and it is hard to get pictures due to the overgrowth of vegetation. * Follow the road out of Northumberland along the river that parallels the river till you get to I-180. Get on I-180 and go to the Watsontown exit. Got to Watsontown, the PRR made stops there. Some interesting things there to photograph. I am not quite sure but you may cross a track that goes northeast. Conrail used this line for a while. I don�t think that it is used now and I am not quite sure where it goes. I will research it and get back to you. I have the info at home and I am not there right now. * Continue up to Williamsport on RT 11/15. Now when you get to South Williamsport, the PRR stayed on this track and only went over to Williamsport if it was a passenger or was to set off cars at Newberry to interchanged with the NYC or Reading. Erie Lackawanna also came into there. There is very little evidence of the PRR in Williamsport. The train station is gone as are most of the tracks. There is a single main track that goes through Willliamsport down by the river and cuts up through town to Newberry. It�s a shame Williamsport was laid out neat for the railroad and the passengers had to back into the station. * If you do continue up to Renovo you may want to go up �Old RT 220� I believe it is now named RT150. it will take you to Jersey Shore. Here you can get a picture of the Train Station in town and the railroad line still goes through there. The tracks are accessible and the cutoff up Pine Creek that the New York Central used is accessible. Thought the tracks are gone the roadbed is there. Was double tracked all the way to Wellsboro. They turned the roadbed into a rails to trails path. The old line out of Kersey Shore is now privately owned and was once part of the New York Central. * Then you may want to double back to take RT220 out of Williamsport and go to Lock Haven. When you cross the Susquehanna you will see where the NYC crosses the PRR. A little farther up and you will see where the NYC and the PRR interchange. Not much left in Lock Haven. Small yard and the interchange with the Bald Eagle Line. I am not sure haw many coal unit trains are coming up that way now. Suppose to be around 8 to 12 a day. * Continue up Rt 120 and 28 miles later you will come to Renovo. Nothing there as far as track. Single main line through and on the west end they keep some engines for breakdowns or additional power. The shops are there and are owned by the county. There are a bunch of Conrail cabooses in the yard. The guy who owns them wanted to rebuild them and sell them as cabins. Never really got started. I think he wants to get rid of them but I don�t know that for sure. Everything is posted but I don�t think anybody will bother you if you are taking pictures. Don�t go on the old foot bridge across the tracks. It is rotted out real bad. If a train ever goes on the ground through there or the bridge falls because of vibrations it will take out half of the the stores there on Eire Ave. They exchange crews on the east end of the town. The crews lay over at the sportsman tavern. If you talk to them they can tell you the train schedule of arrivals. * From Renovo you can get to Altoona by going over PA 144 to Rt 220 or continue up to Driftwood and go into Clearfield and then to Altoona. The PRR follows the river to Sinnemahoning creek and the NYC wyes off to Clearfield there. You can get some pictures there too. Well I hope that gives you some help. I have some land outside of Renovo and will be going up the week of the 20th I think. Depends upon the kids and school. If you want more info give a shout Good hunting Wayne F. Dibert 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of rholden Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 12:54 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Northern Division Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone. Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back down to Horseshoe Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys who reside in these areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury area to know where I can find traces of the PRR to photograph? I'm pretty familiar with the Curve...but I have never been to Sunbury or Williamsport...any suggestions? Regards All. Bob Holden. PRRT&HS # 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BFCBC4.6EA1F6C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ta= ke lots a film

In= Sunbury you will want to go to the middle of town and get a picture = of where the railroad came through the middle of town. You will also = want to see where the PRR and the Reading had a diamond crossing. You can = find it because the old Reading Railroad bridge over the Susquehanna will = come into Sunbury. Follow it and you will see where they use to cross. The = PRR I still believe goes out of Sunbury northeast towards Shamokin. It = will follow Rt61 eventually. Go to the North end of town and you can = find where the railroad goes.
Yo= u can go to the north end of town and also see where the PRR crosses = the Susquehanna from Sunbury into Northumberland. Be sure you go to the old PRR = Railroad Passenger station in Northumberland. They have an old passenger car = and I believe a N5C caboose there. Both are fully restored. There is a = restaurant there that you can also eat at. There is hardly anything left to = the old yard at Northumberland and it is hard to get pictures due to the = overgrowth of vegetation.
Fo= llow the road out of Northumberland along the river that parallels the = river till you get to I-180. Get on I-180 and go to the Watsontown exit. = Got to Watsontown, the PRR made stops there. Some interesting things there = to photograph. I am not quite sure but you may cross a track that goes northeast. Conrail used this line for a while. I don’t think = that it is used now and I am not quite sure where it goes. I will research it = and get back to you. I have the info at home and I am not there right = now.
Co= ntinue up to Williamsport on RT 11/15. Now when you get to South = Williamsport, the PRR stayed on this track and only went over to Williamsport if = it was a passenger or was to set off cars at Newberry to interchanged with = the NYC or Reading. Erie Lackawanna also came into there. There is very = little evidence of the PRR in Williamsport. The train station is gone as are most = of the tracks. There is a single main track that goes through Willliamsport down = by the river and cuts up through town to Newberry. It’s a shame = Williamsport was laid out neat for the railroad and the passengers had to back into = the station.
If= you do continue up to Renovo you may want to go up “Old RT = 220” I believe it is now named RT150. it will take you to Jersey Shore. Here you can = get a picture of the Train Station in town and the railroad line still = goes through there. The tracks are accessible and the cutoff up Pine Creek that = the New York Central used is accessible. Thought the tracks are gone the = roadbed is there. Was double tracked all the way to Wellsboro. They turned the = roadbed into a rails to trails path. The old line out of Kersey Shore is = now privately owned and was once part of the New York Central. =
Th= en you may want to double back to take RT220 out of Williamsport and go to = Lock Haven. When you cross the Susquehanna you will see where the NYC crosses the PRR. A little = farther up and you will see where the NYC and the PRR interchange. Not much = left in Lock Haven. Small yard and the interchange with the Bald Eagle = Line. I am not sure haw many coal unit trains are coming up that way now. = Suppose to be around 8 to 12 a day.
Co= ntinue up Rt 120 and 28 miles later you will come to Renovo. Nothing there = as far as track. Single main line through and on the west end they keep = some engines for breakdowns or additional power. The shops are there and = are owned by the county. There are a bunch of Conrail cabooses in the = yard. The guy who owns them wanted to rebuild them and sell them as = cabins. Never really got started. I think he wants to get rid of them but I = don’t know that for sure. Everything is posted but I don’t think = anybody will bother you if you are taking pictures. Don’t go on the old = foot bridge across the tracks. It is rotted out real bad. If a train ever goes on the = ground through there or the bridge falls because of vibrations it will = take out half of the the stores there on Eire Ave. They exchange crews on the = east end of the town. The crews lay over at the sportsman tavern. If you = talk to them they can tell you the train schedule of arrivals. =
Fr= om Renovo you can get to Altoona by going over PA 144 to Rt 220 or continue = up to Driftwood and go into Clearfield and then to Altoona. The PRR = follows the river to Sinnemahoning creek and the NYC wyes off to Clearfield there. = You can get some pictures there too.

We= ll I hope that gives you some help. I have some land outside of Renovo and will be = going up the week of the 20^th I think. Depends upon the kids and = school. If you want more info give a shout

Go= od hunting

Wayne F. Dibert

102016.1343@worldnet.att.net

<= span class=3DEmailStyle15>

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of rholden
Sent: Thursday, June 01, = 2000 12:54 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Northern = Division

Good Evening...Jerry, and everyone.<= /p>
<= /p>
Gonna be heading next week up through Sunbury and over through = Williamsport...eventually gonna try to get over to Renovo and then back down to Horseshoe = Curve...and I'd be real interested if any of you guys who reside in these = areas...particularly the Williamsport and Sunbury area to know where I can find traces of the = PRR to photograph? I'm pretty familiar with the Curve...but I have never been = to Sunbury or Williamsport...any suggestions?<= /p>
<= /p>
Regards All.<= /p>
<= /p>
Bob Holden.<= /p>
PRRT&HS # 5044

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BFCBC4.6EA1F6C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:52:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] Baltimore Steel Mill Hello Conan, The plant just above the Bayview carshops was Eastern Stainless Steel, now under a different name (I think it is Avista now). The Canton RR serves this plant. To the best of my knowledge, the Canton does not interchange with the NEC at Eastpoint. Yes, the PRR had a spur that went to Sparrows Point from this area, which is still in use. Hope this helps. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] How Black is Black? Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:14:26 EDT Remember, Pennsy men would refer to a freshly out shopped unites as being "a fresh coat of varnish" which tells you that a! > repainted unit was not likely repainted but more often re-varnished. >Once the varnish was re-applied to a cleaned locomotive that had been wiped >with "hot water,oil soap and kerosene" the orginal color could be >established with a coat of varnish. _______________________________________ In fact, on a railfan trip in 1953 to Enola out of D.C., E8's were coupled on at Harrisburg for the ride across the Bridge and over to Enola. While at Harrisburg, I got a real close look at the diesels. They had just been varnished, perhaps the day before. The surface was still a bit tacky. I could see the dark red paint with variations in color, meaning it had been on there a while and had oxidized in some areas, then there were tell-tale specks of insects, grime, and dents from small stones tossed by passing trains at high speed, and an obvious effort to get rid of most of this through a pressure washer, followed by a coat of clear varnish. I even remember the smell of it--sort of like spar varnish--the kind that never really dries. Andrew Harmantas, loading up the car even now for the day-long drive to Strasburg for RR artists Weekend at the RR musuem. See you there. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDGbuff@webtv.net (FrancisinSunbury) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:58:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Northern Division I think my earlier message definetly needs some editing. I left out that they are PRR & RDG "stations". Also, some very trivial misspellings. You mentioned Selinsgrove. There are two bridges and a wye between the main street and the river. !st leg - comes from Sunbury(eastern side) of the river 2nd leg - heads norh to a power plant 3rd leg - heads west to (on other side of main street) a station and then further on to grain elevator and I believe Kreamer (couple of miles) Sunbury Perusing another letter, the old Reading Bridge is gone. Opening in flood wall closed in. Only the abutment on Sunbury side left. SF tower and crossin gone. The North Shore has a connection between the old PRR main and the old Reading main that was left intact on the east side of Third Street. This line runs on the old RDG main for a while and then uses the old PRR main further on to get to Shamokin. (Basically the PRR track was a branch but ran sometimes right along the RDG on the way. They crossed Shamokin Creek side-by-side.) North end of town has a one-story concrete tower(now maintenance???) named KASE. CP Rail diverges/converges here. Island Park Between Sunbury and Northumberland (Norry locally). The rr bridges on both sides of the island I think are neat. One set has bridge built on piers adjacent and attached to old piers on north side. Other on the south side. There was a previous bridge there at one time. Northumberland The station has two passenger cars under roof, and a Keystone in upper brickwork on track side. If you walk down tracks towards river (east) and walkover highway overpass a line bears north. This is the North Shore (ex-DL&W,E-L). They usually have a few cars there. The North Shore itself has its' headquarters at the old DL&W station. When you first come into Norry, take first right. Can't miss. That is where the caboose is that was restored. I have had the privilege of riding the back platform from Sunbury to Paxinos and back (12 miles). Their power changes. Their own engine in E-L colors, Wellsboro & Corning, Lycoming Valley, Lewisburg & ??? and even the ex-P&S bi-centennial units. I believe they are all repainted. Didn't mention Norry Yards. Depends, sometimes very strict. Watsontown Other letter mentioned a line tat they weren't sure of. I believe it goes to a power plant in Washingtonville. Conrail used to run a "brown" caboose on the unit train on that line. ONE misspelling for sure. Have fun. Lot more little things that show te past. Ah! Growing up with double track,locals,businesses,spurs(sidings) and the PRR freight platforms and RDG freight station. Didn't even mention the horn and Mount Carmel ore trains or the wye in Sunbury. Francis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:28:39 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steam Roster Project From: Jerry Britton Folks: I'm pleased to report that 100% of the data has been input for Phase I of the searchable steam roster project on "Keystone Crossings"! I just need to tweak the HTML search forms and then Phase I will be complete. Phase I includes only two fields of data: road number and class. So, you can enter a road number and see all the classes that bore that number, or you can search by class and get a list of road numbers. Phase II will be done by the end of the summer. It adds hundreds of photos of various locos, many with location information. Phase III is a distributed project and I still need your help. It involves indexing numerous published texts on PRR steam. Each road number's record will involve a reference list to published photographs. There are many common books for which nobody has volunteered to index yet. If you can spare some time, please see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/steamdataentry.html TRIVIA: How many PRR steam locomotive road number "uses"* were there? * "uses" means that if one locomotive was renumbered twice, for a total of three numbers, it would count as three "uses". --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division/PRR Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:13:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCBDB.FBB9D700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can you imagine what a nice wife I have that would allow me search out = remnents of the 'Standard Railroad of the World'! We are fortunate to = have a nice motor home in which to make this journey. Although this is = not 1952...I am looking forward to seeing the towns that the Pennsy = served so well for so long. I grew up in Baltimore...and saw mostly = varnish...but no steam...and few PRR freights, unless they bypassed Penn = Station. But I believe the Middle and Northern Division were the heart = and soul of the Pennsylvania Railroad (No offense to those other = regions). As each day goes by...a little bit more of the Pennsy is = dismantled...and I look forward of exploring a little bit of what = remains. Either way, I end up at Horseshoe Curve...and when I'm = there...if I just close my eyes for a minute...isn't that a J-1 = coming...or a T-1 pulling the 'Broadway Limited'!!! Regards Everyone...and I have printed everything you guys were gracious = enough to put together for me! Bob Holden, PRRT&HS 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCBDB.FBB9D700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can you imagine what a nice wife I have that would = allow me=20 search out remnents of the 'Standard Railroad of the World'! We are = fortunate to=20 have a nice motor home in which to make this journey. Although this is = not=20 1952...I am looking forward to seeing the towns that the Pennsy served = so well=20 for so long. I grew up in Baltimore...and saw mostly varnish...but no=20 steam...and few PRR freights, unless they bypassed Penn Station. But I = believe=20 the Middle and Northern Division were the heart and soul of the = Pennsylvania=20 Railroad (No offense to those other regions). As each day goes by...a = little bit=20 more of the Pennsy is dismantled...and I look forward of exploring a = little bit=20 of what remains. Either way, I end up at Horseshoe Curve...and when I'm=20 there...if I just close my eyes for a minute...isn't that a J-1 = coming...or a=20 T-1 pulling the 'Broadway Limited'!!!

Regards Everyone...and I have printed everything you guys were = gracious=20 enough to put together for me!

Bob Holden, PRRT&HS 5044

------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCBDB.FBB9D700-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 12:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR scales Looking at the lists of locations of track scales in the 1923 CT1000. Several scales in the hard coal region are listed as being equiped with "double gross beam". What does "double gross beam" mean? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:51:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Clip Art Found a web page today that some of you may know about that has PRR clip art. There are a couple of GG1's an S2. The site is www.ribbonrail.com/art. The entire site is RR related clip art for downloading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:28:28 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Steel Mill Questions Hi all... I've been reading the posts and forgot about the small plant near Bay View yard. It was'nt very large. There was one spur heading north from the north-eastern side of the yard to the plant. The plant area itself was about only two city blocks square. Its up on a slight hill above the north end of the yard. PRR was the only railroad to service this plant. There used to be a small shopping center(later state offices) and a Chevy dealer (Luby Chervolet?) to the east of it facing Eastern Ave. The PRR Bay View spur to Beth steel's plant ran behind this plant and crossed Eastern Ave. near it. During the 1970's there used to be a old heavyweight Pullman sleeper (was formerly owned by the U.S.Army) and a old Western Maryland heavyweight RPO inside the plant property,but not used by the plant. They both were there for years rusting away. Both are now gone and may have gone to the B&O museum. As for the plant off the NEC closer to town,I have no idea what the local name was for it.But i do recall "Armco" painted on the mill buildings in large letters facing the tracks for years. As far as i know the PRR was the only railroad to service this plant too,as the B&O's main line is way over on the other side of a hill north of this plant. If you head north from Rte.40 toward this plant on Edison Hwy you had a city park to the left and the former city dump to the right, then you crossed the NEC main and the main plant was on the right. From here still heading north was a few small factories on the right and a residential area to the left. You will be heading up hill the whole time. Just before reaching the B&O main you will see the back side of the "Baltimore Cemetery". I think a gas station was on the right just across from it.The B&O main was in a cut thru the hill(western end goes thru several small tunnel before crossing the NEC main near Penn station and heading into the Howard st. tunnel to downtown. The PRR interchanged with the Canton RR just east of the interharbor and near the I-895 harbor tunnel bridges and tunnel entrance. The Canton railroad was a small switching and terminal RR in the Canton section (East Baltimore near the Harbor) of Baltimore. The PRR might have had a controlling interest in this railroad...don't know. They also interchanged with the B&O in this area too. The PRR had a large yard near the water front in this area.This yard was built by the Northern Central Rwy before this RR was later leased by the PRR. Later a large Chevy plant was built just to the East of this yard and both the PRR and B&O serviced this plant. PRR's main coal pier in Baltimore was located here too. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:42:09 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Hello list, This will probably ignite a firestorm of flames; please forgive my biases. I've noticed that a lot of folks on the list have home layouts, and so are most interested in running said layout. I really envy you guys, and I can easily see your point of view. For folks building a layout, it's usually easier to take a completed engine out of the box and place it on the track. My grandfather is one of these folks. We have a symbiotic relationship; I build kits, and he runs the completed product. I am without a layout. On top of this, I like to build kits. If I had my druthers, I'd buy all of my steamers this way. I would be the first to admit that my priorities would probably change if I were building a home layout. I would hope that Bowser's new J1 will be a kit, though I will probably buy one either way. I'm hoping that if and when Bowser rereleases the G5s, that it will also be a kit. I cannot argue the virtues of plastic for duplicating detail, but I would argue that it's hard to beat zinc for electrical contact at the rail and for traction. I believe that Bowser's steamers are nice layout quality models, and that the market for PRR steam is probably too small to support competitors. The K4s, which has two manufacturers, is, perhaps, the only exception. I would, however, love to see resin boilers for a K2s/K3s, and I would cheerfully give a large portion of my internal organs for a 110P75a tender. In the 60s, Cary did many boilers in lead before it became too expensive to do so; resin would, I think, make this viable again. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:32:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Along the main In a message dated 5/30/2000 4:54:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, BBReynolds writes: > the passenger station is a good prototype for those who have Pennsylvania > Station New York asperations Sorry, could not let that misspelled word stay online without correction: aspirations. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Doug, Well said. Opinions count. I myself purchase both ways. There is really no ready to run PRR Steamer or Diesel out there. There is always some PRR detail to add or change to be more loco specific. Even Brass locos. There always seems to be something that needs changed or improved upon ie: details or paint. As for the Bowser J, I am speculating here, but with the Chineese involved, I suspect a "ready to run" Loco. And if so, I expect to add or change something on that one too....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 22:10:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Doug and all, There's a lot of truth in what you've said about kit vs RTR. For the many years I didn't have a place for a layout, I thought nothing of building complex and time-consuming kits, kitbashing and even scatchbuilding.. At least I had a lot of rolling stock and structures ready to go when I was building my first major layout. But now, working on my "for the foreseeable future" layout, I've done what would have been unthinkable even a few years ago: abandoned some layout space. Instead of 75% of the basement I've withdrawn to about 60% of the land area. I'm getting older, and if I ever want to reach a decent level of completeness, my priorities really had to be defined down. My first Westerfield kit, an X25 auto car, took me probably 12 hours, minimum, and it's not even painted. To be sure, the next one would be much faster, and I have some in my stash. But I figure for the same 12-15 hours for one car I could have laid out an entire yard or probably 50 feet of plywood roadbed complete with risers. I still love building kits, kitbashing Pullmans and decaling. But most of that's temporarily on the back burner. Meanwhile I've got a railroad and an HO city to build. While it's possible , of course, to have a large and fully detailed layout populated by a fleet of superdetailed engines and cars, for most of us that's a long-off dream. Four feet of trackage laid in a brick street took me almost a week of evenings, but it sure whet my appitite for more of the same! Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Re: northern division Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:13:51 -0700 Bob, If you want to see an old PRR shop complex, stop at Renovo! Renovo has one of the last, if not the last, coaling towers of the PRR still extant in Pa. More so it has many of its' appliances still on it! The boiler shop , at least part of it, dates to "1865". The office complex, power plant, blacksmith shop, paint shop, wood working shop, transfer table, hump weigh house, light tower, a couple of N5s in MOW gray, and blue Conrail cabins, a PRR MOW converted heavyweight were there last I visited. Take plenty of pictures as I have heard report some of the buildings are slated to be razed. --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 19:46:25 -0700 The original factory color for that era on that line was a bright red, except in the case of senior fireman who were near, within a few months, of becoming actual engineers who were allowed to, but not required to, wear blue, a deep blue to be technically correct. However it should be noted that in most photos this red often appears darker and more often lighter red. The reason for this is the type of film of that era and the color changes that invariably occur to film over the years. There are a host of other factors that affect the shade of red. I.e. weather the fireman was in the cab in the shade or in bright light when the photo was taken. Also the color was affected by the type of coal that was used in the engine. The better quality coal because of its' more thorough burning quality would not leave as much ash in the exhaust smoke and hence the bandana was a brighter color. In regions of poorer coal the bandanas were a darker red leaning towards almost black but not an actual black. So as you see it is important to know the region you are modeling. Probably one area that has received the least attention is the respective "shop" were the bandana was serviced. For example some wives, mothers, girlfriends or in rare cases non-union workers in laundry shops used various different detergents and machines or handtools for cleaning the bandanas. Hence a well serviced bandana that had seen machined washing and factory laundry detergent would retain its brilliant red much longer than say one that was serviced by hand on a washboard with plain old lye soap. In either case nearly all of the heavily used ones eventually faded to a lighter red except of course in the case poor coal regions were they tended to be dark even after "shopping". So as you can see it is a complex question, before you even ask about which paint manufacturer has the best paint for your situation. In the era, and region you mentioned I would just go with plain old red! To tell the truth though, I have never researched the clothing line to find out what the actual dye color was! Perhaps the PRRT&HS could come out with a color chip for this. --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JWTrains@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:22:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] (PRR) PRR F5's??? I felt that I should respond to the F5 E-Mail's because I was the fellow that put on the clinic on GP-7's and GP-9's at the PRRT&HS Convention. I have the complete parts catalogs for first generation diesels and nowhere in any of these catalogs is any reference made to a F5. They only refer to replacement parts for FT's, F2's, F3's, F7's, FP7's and FP9's. This was the basis of my argument. I decided to look at these catalogs again and I did find something that might clear up some of this argument. In Volumn 2, Catalog No. 90 they list all the railroads that bought F units up through April, 1954. This section covers the original pilots and replacement pilots, the original EMD Production Order and Locomotive Model Numbers. Again, no Model F5 was listed as being produced. Something I did find was that EMD's Order No. E-1080 was for both F3's and F7's. Maybe, and I am only speculating that the portion of F7's built with Order No. E-1080 were the ones that EMD's engineering department called F5's. Again, only speculating! I have listed below the complete EMD Production Order and Locomotive Model Numbers for all F, FP and E units as given in the catalog mentioned above. Order No. Model No. Order No. Model No. E-843 F3 E-3037 F7 E-863 F3 E-3038 F7 E-896 F3 E-3051 F7 E-921 F3 E-3066 FP7 E-922 F3 E-3144 F7 E-1004 F3 E-671 E7 E-1021 F3 E-745 E7 E-1080 F3 E-864 E7 E-1080 F7 E-1113 E7 E-1108 F3 E-2054 E8 E-1138 F3 E-6079 E8 E-1144 F7 E-6181 E8 E-1221 F7 E-6354 E8 E-3025 F7 Before someone catches the discrepancy please note that in Mr Sweetland's latest PRR book, he shows EMD Order No. E-864 was for F3's #9506A-9517A. The catalog shows this as an order for E7's. Also, his reference to Order No. 1080 was for only F3's. I hope this is informational and my comments helpfull. Jim Williams ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 23:39:10 -0400 From: ERIC LAUTERBACH Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam The new plastic steam seems to be a lot more amenable to modification with all the seperate parts. So they can be detailed for a particular engine fairly easy. I would also think that a RTR engine would sell more to the general railroad population then a kit. Don't think that just pennsy fans will buy this locomotive. While not on the level of the K4, this engine is well liked in the non SPF world. Besides it would be the only model of a 2-10-4 in plastic. I can honestly say that if Bowser comes out with this engine and it is comparable to their current kits then I would not likely buy any. I not only don't have time to build a kit amd really super detail an engine, but don't like the looks compared to my brass and newer plastic. I have a westside J that I bought for a song and I could not help but compare a new J to the brass J. My new plastic engines like the Life Like and Athearn look as good as brass. They don't appear to be toyish next the brass, but rather they appear on the level. Plus I have a fairly small layout, so the engines is a big focal point. Don't take this as an attack on Bowser. I have many Bowser freight cars and cabin cars that I am very pleased with. I also have quite a few Bowser engines, even with all the super detailing they look good but not as good as a Life Like or Spectrum engine straight out of the box. Just my 2 cents worth, Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:24:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR scales In a message dated 6/1/2000 3:19:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > What does "double gross beam" mean? > Venture a guess that it means the scale could weigh an entire car at one time, rather than one truck at a time. Just a guess, now, just a guess. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 00:24:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Thanx to Greg for his "stone-washed" review of bandana colors; he missed an extra element in distinguishing the color, which depends on whether the laundress hung the bandana up on the "Lines West" or the "Lines East" of her house. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv & Sylvie Brice" Subject: [PRR] How Black is Black Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:31:22 +1000 Listers, To all of you who responded to my question on DGLE, my thanks. Viv Brice, a Pennsy fan from Down Under ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:29:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Well, see, even with your extensive research into the matter, an all-important factor has been overlooked: How much does the fireman in question sweat? And does he wipe his face with it, use it for a napkin or tie it around his head Rambo-style or Jesse Ventura style? This one simple factor can throw all other calculations out the window. Guess it's best to use the color chips (and it was never called 'dark red'; it was always DRBD), and failing that to depend on historical study. Only as a last resort use photograpic evidence. After all, whaterya gonna trust: what you see or what someone tells ya? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 07:35:09 EDT Doug, I am right in you corner, I have no room to build a layout but I love to put together Steam kits. Amen to Bowser J1 KIT!!!! Sam Vastano >From: "doug.kisala" >To: "prr-talk@dsop.com" >Subject: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam >Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 20:42:09 -0500 > >Hello list, > >This will probably ignite a firestorm of flames; please forgive my >biases. > >I've noticed that a lot of folks on the list have home layouts, and so >are most interested in running said layout. I really envy you guys, and >I can easily see your point of view. For folks building a layout, it's >usually easier to take a completed engine out of the box and place it on >the track. > >My grandfather is one of these folks. We have a symbiotic relationship; >I build kits, and he runs the completed product. > >I am without a layout. On top of this, I like to build kits. If I had >my druthers, I'd buy all of my steamers this way. I would be the first >to admit that my priorities would probably change if I were building a >home layout. I would hope that Bowser's new J1 will be a kit, though I >will probably buy one either way. I'm hoping that if and when Bowser >rereleases the G5s, that it will also be a kit. I cannot argue the >virtues of plastic for duplicating detail, but I would argue that it's >hard to beat zinc for electrical contact at the rail and for traction. > >I believe that Bowser's steamers are nice layout quality models, and >that the market for PRR steam is probably too small to support >competitors. The K4s, which has two manufacturers, is, perhaps, the >only exception. > > I would, however, love to see resin boilers for a K2s/K3s, and I would >cheerfully give a large portion of my internal organs for a 110P75a >tender. In the 60s, Cary did many boilers in lead before it became too >expensive to do so; resin would, I think, make this viable again. > >Doug > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 07:57:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F5's a factory designation, not PRR's. In a message dated 6/1/00 5:33:44 AM Mountain Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << 4. I don't have a late enough Form 109, but it would be interesting to know if this variance in traction motor was even tracked in PRR's motive power records. >> Rick and others, I would suspect that the difference was indeed made note of, and tracked. Whether the PRR did so by designating these units as F5's is not known. Officialy they may not have, but at shops, and service points the shop personel may have used the F5 designation as a way to highlight the fact that these "F3's" had different equipment in them. This would would most certainly help out the shop personel that would have to work on these units. Just a thought. We'll probably never know for sure. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 05:04:58 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam Hi Doug and all, A couple of comments here regarding your comments about kits. First, let me say that I ahve nothing against kits...I have piles of 'em in the closet (someday I will finish that Bowser L1s and start on the rest of the green boxes just below it ;-) However, for today's modeler, rtr models will outsell kits by maybe 100 to 1. Look on the shelves of your favorite hobby shop and count the number of Westerfield kits...come back in a month and I'll be willing to bet that the number doesn't change much. A lot of people have too much disposable income and not enough time, along with a change in attitude that values quantity over quality. I think that the market would support a plastic rtr PRR locomotive...there are enough modelers out there with a Pennsy bent that it would sell. Doing what guys like Mike's Train House does in 3-rail O scale (if you've ever seen some of their latest models you will understand my use of the word scale) would be even better. I don't believe that resin boilers would work well for steam...not enough weight (I would love to be proved wrong), so the Cary approach is still viable. Incidentally, Cary's boilers are still around...made by (who else) Bowser, who picked up the line after the death of the founder. Some of their stuff is gone forever, made obsolete by the plethora of plastic diesel shells. (I wonder how their USRA MIke boiler is doing these days...) Doug, you might consider brass for your 110P75a...if you can find one of the old Red Ball K4s models it was equipped with one (the model is of one of the last 5 K4s locomotives built...the equivalent of the PFM version offered at the same time in the late 1960's). Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:04:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors You mean to tell me there wasn't a standard for these on the PRR or a company store where they had to be purchased? LOL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division! Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:42:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFCC76.D9EA9560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Francis...and thank you Greg! Greg...I must have just missed you...I live seven miles from Gettysburg! = Our motor home is a 1988 Heritage 1000...30 footer, with very low = miles...We love it...This trip has been evolving into more of an = exploration of regions served by the PRR. We never thought for a moment = that we would be up in Wellsboro walking on a trail which was a New York = Central connection. Looking forward to the trip and hope to take lots of = photographs and video especially interested in the Renovo area...and of = course coming down to Horseshoe Curve. Thanks guys...Bob Holden PRRT&HS # 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFCC76.D9EA9560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Francis...and thank you Greg!

Greg...I must have just missed you...I live seven miles from = Gettysburg!=20 Our motor home is a 1988 Heritage 1000...30 footer, with very low = miles...We=20 love it...This trip has been evolving into more of an exploration of = regions=20 served by the PRR. We never thought for a moment that we would be up in=20 Wellsboro walking on a trail which was a New York Central connection. = Looking=20 forward to the trip and hope to take lots of photographs and video = especially=20 interested in the Renovo area...and of course coming down to Horseshoe=20 Curve.

Thanks guys...Bob Holden

PRRT&HS # 5044
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFCC76.D9EA9560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:40:51 -0400 Barry Peltier, thinking he could remain annonomous by not signing his post, points out: "Guess it's best to use the color chips (and it was never called 'dark red'; it was always DRBD), and failing that to depend on historical study. Only as a last resort use photograpic evidence. After all, whaterya gonna trust: what you see or what someone tells ya?" Barry, I have never found any reference to DRBD (Dark Red Bandana Dye) in all my years of researching the PRR. I know this is a popular term that we all use regularly, but did Pennsy employees actually use it? There are numerous listings showing "Bandana Red", "Neckerchief Color" and even "Headwear Vermillion", but no DRBD to be found. I had heard that this color was formulated by merely adding one part black dye to 100 parts red. You have to look at the fireman in just the right light to catch a glimps of black. No doubt, when a PRR employee stood next to a competing railroad's bandana-wearing soul, the color difference would be quite dramatic. Does anyone know if Floquil plans this color? Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors --- NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > You mean to tell me there wasn't a standard for > these on the PRR or a company store where they had > to be purchased? LOL > Several decades ago I was helping my mother sort out odds and ends inherited from her mother. There was a bed spread which had red embroidery, except that at one end the embroidery was a pale brownish pink rather than red. I asked about that and was told that the work had been begun before WW1 with floss dyed with German dyes. But, that had run out and the new floss had been dyed with American dyes since German dyes were no longer available. Although the new floss matched the old when new, over time it had faded, while the pre-war stuff had not. (Score one for I. G. Farben.) Now that throws an additional variable into the mix. Surely the USRA would not have permitted bandanas dyed with German dyes to have been worn, even had such been available. That, I suspect, would have led to rather rapid fading of the bandanas, regardless of washing technique or other factors. Whether firemen would allow themselves to be seen in public wearing a pink bandana is another question. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:12:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors Oh boy, now Bob's gone and introduced another variable into the equation. Unfortunately, Bob's account of the WWI-era blanket has reminded me of a magazine article regarding WWI material which I never figured would get into Pennsy lore, but our quest for historical accuracy is unending. Seems America's attitude toward the tragic conflict raging in Europe was neutral, at best. Germany was supported by Americans of German, Austrian, Hungarian, and other Central European extractions, as well as heavily by Irish-Americans. And many American enterprises highly valued German dyes, becoming hard to obtain due to the British blockade of German exports. About this time the Germans launched a new effort: the freight-service U Boat. These were sizable craft, something of an underwater version of a Pennsy I1. Anyway, there was great hoopla and fanfare when one of these vessels landed at a Jersey port, carrying, you guessed it, dye. This was something of a setback for Woodrow Wilson and his cohort, Winston Churchill, who were doing their best to get the USA into the conflict. Now I'm betting somebody knows which B60's the dye was loaded into and how much ended up in PRSL neckware. I guess the only logical conclusion is that you can't trust drift cards, photos, personal recounts or research when it comes to bandanas, cause some nitpicker is going to take a magnifier to your HO employees and prove you wrong anyway, or at least argue about it. Serve beer in styrofoam glasses to minimize resulting physical damages. Barry Jones (new member who hasn't said anything before) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:14:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Steam Roster Now Online! From: Jerry Britton The initial version of the searchable steam locomotive roster is now online!!! http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/steam/ PLEASE, take a moment to follow the links to Search Tips and Scope of Project before using the database!!! These sections explain the format of the data and the current content of the database. Currently, only the road numbers and classes are in the system. So, if you want to search for what classes were represented by certain road numbers (e.g. birthdays, anniversaries, etc.), you can obtain that data at this time. Assuming that you have read the above two sections, your comments are welcome and appreciated. Is there other data that we should be maintaining as well? Over the coming weeks I will be attaching photos to several hundred records. By the end of the summer I will be entering the "Cross Reference to Published Photos" data. This is a distributed data entry project for which help is still needed! See the Scope of Project link from the main page of the database. Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story Barry J, ��Remember, that submarine, which by the way only had a tractive effort of 50,000 lbs,, far less than that of a PRR I1, had a group of sabatour's out to destroy the Pennsy's Horseshoe Curve. Luckily they were caught in time before any damage was done. On their possession was that barrel of that red dye. Who knows what happened to it after it was confiscated! Could have made its way out to the Lines West Officials and used in the Bandanas on that division.... Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 10:44:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story They were easily spotted because their bandanas were too red. With the superior dye job there was nothing they could do about it either. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JWTrains@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 12:38:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR list for F3, F7, FP7, E7, E8 Sorry, the previous list got screwed up. I'll list them again in a single row. Order No. Model No. E-843 F3 E-863 F3 E-896 F3 E-921 F3 E-922 F3 E-1004 F3 E-1021 F3 E-1080 F3* E-1080 F7* E-1108 F3 E-1138 F3 E-1144 F7 E-1221 F7 E-3025 F7 E-3037 F7 E-3038 F7 E-3051 F7 E-3066 FP7 E-3144 F7 E-671 E7 E-745 E7 E-864 E7 E-1113 E7 E-2054 E8 E-6079 E8 E-6181 E8 E-6354 E8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 13:31:26 -0400 From: Garry Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR F5's a factory designation, not PRR's. Stuthayer@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/1/00 5:33:44 AM Mountain Daylight Time, > RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << 4. I don't have a late enough Form 109, but it would be interesting to > know > if this variance in traction motor was even tracked in PRR's motive power > records. >> > > Rick and others, > > I would suspect that the difference was indeed made note of, and tracked. > Whether the PRR did so by designating these units as F5's is not known. > Officialy they may not have, but at shops, and service points the shop > personel may have used the F5 designation as a way to highlight the fact that > these "F3's" had different equipment in them. This would would most > certainly help out the shop personel that would have to work on these units. > Just a thought. We'll probably never know for sure. > > Stuart Thayer > I never heard of any differences. When traction motors and generators were rebuilt they were rebuilt to the current engineering standard. You would have the same engineering standard for traction motors under EF15s and EF17s. Same comment for the traction motors under EP20s and EP22s. You could even have the same model generators in different model engines. Yes, records were kept as to the current engineering level of the traction motors and generators, but the shop forces did not use or care. In 1965 the PRR rebuilt some EP22s that had rebuilt generator, traction motor, and electrical cabinets applied. These items were the current EMD engineering level. All these items were rated for a 2400 hp locomotive. Does this make these engines closet E9s. I think not! The prime movers never were never rerated. The locomotives were still 2200 hp. I worked in Juniata in 1965 on locomotive repairs & in 1967 in the traction motor and generator repair shop. Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:45:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! From: Jerry Britton For the benefit of those not on the "Merchandise Announce" list, the previously "pre-announced" N-5 Cabin Cars are now available for Advance Reservation. Thirty road names/liveries are announced, including PRR, Penn Central, and Conrail. You can learn more by visiting the Merchandise Service eStore at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Enter the store and perform a search on Manufacturer = Bowser Category = N Scale --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:06:32 +0100 While making due note of all the expert theories, this Brit will continue to do his own thing as usual and insist on matching model bandana colour to those found on his 'extensive' collection of weathered bandana photographs. Regards, John H. Wright Visit the Newcastle & District MRS Website at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: 02 June 2000 15:44 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:12:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! Guys, Am I correct in thinking that the old PRR cabin that sits at the small park next to the tunnels at Gallitzin is an N5? Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:20:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser G-5 In a message dated 5/31/00 7:28:40 AM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << he Gem one was done by Olympia and is a little more suspect. Some Gem's are gems (pardon the pun) and some are rocks. From personal experience both the H10s's and E6s's from Gem are good runners (although the details need some work...even by the standards of the mid 1960's they were pretty plain), and while I had a G5 once upon a time I can't remember how well it ran...not a good sign. >> MIne runs as smooth as glass. Details are a matter of choice. Since I like operation first, I am content with fewer things to fall off with handling for those of us unfortunate enough to have to transport our rolling stock often. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:40:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion In a message dated 5/31/00 7:54:43 PM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Incidentally, I believe that the GP30's were the last delivered units with the antennas...the U25B's delivered next had no antennas. >> Close, but at least a significant number of U25B's had antennas. I think GP35 was first with no antennas, though the antennas might have stopped in the middle of the U25B run. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 15:55:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Window trim color on a T1? In a message dated 5/31/00 9:24:34 PM Central Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes: << Since I am just a kid when it comes to my knowledge of the PRR What color was the trim around the windows of a T1 and a J1? since I am asking. >> The J1 is a little easier (I think). The trim is the same color as the lettering in every photo I have seen (I am not sure of the changeover datefrom gold leaf to buff lettering). Your question about the T1 has shaken me a little. For years I assumed it was gold leaf. But only photos I can find show either stainless or aluminum or jjust plain DGLE (or something which is so dirty as to look DGLE). Will continue to search. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Shelb68man@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:01:10 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steel Mill Questions Hi, I believe Phoenix Steel in Claymont,DE was Worth Steel in the 1950's. It was served by the PRR.I been told that the old Pennsy right of way (before relocation) is now a part of the trackage in the mill today. You ride over it when driving through the plant on the Philadelphia Pk.. Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [CR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:07:16 -0400 Sean, It's actually an N5C. Brian Brooks ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Friday, June 02, 2000 3:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] Great News For N-Scalers!!! > Guys, > > Am I correct in thinking that the old PRR cabin that sits at the small park > next to the tunnels at Gallitzin is an N5? > > Sean McDonnell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:09:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] firemans bandana colors In a message dated 6/1/00 9:56:01 PM Central Daylight Time, gas@fastinet.net writes: << To tell the truth though, I have never researched the clothing line to find out what the actual dye color was! Perhaps the PRRT&HS could come out with a color chip for this. >> Red and blue will not do as the description for the color. It should be something like DRBC (Deluxe Red Bandanna Color) or something like that to make sure that only SPF's will know what the h--- we are talking about. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 16:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Window trim color on a T1? Bob, I was in the same opinion you were. I also presumed the T1 window trim was Gold Leaf. Upon closer look at my color T1 slides it appears the trim is DGLE. B/W photos in books show a lighter color so something changed through the years. Here is a long shot and maybe an answer can be found. Does anyone on this list own the spectacular 1/32 scale PRR T1 produced by Marketing Corporation of America? Much attention was given to detail on these locos. What is the color of the trim on this loco? I remember when the M1a was released by this company. There was a big squabble over a certain pipeing position. The 2 combatants was the company that built it, MCA, and the Smithsoniun Museum. Story was the museum wouldn't allow it in their display until the builder changed the routing of this pipe. MCA said it was correct the way they did it. Seems they had proof. The Smithsoniun thought otherwise. Never did hear what happened in the end. Anyway, this is the example of the high quality of these huge models. So if we could find out what this T1 had for window trim color, we may have an answer to the prototype T1 color question........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:33:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] EMD PRR F5's Jim, My point exactly. the engineering department did release F5's and several raods did roster them and recognized this notation, like Clinchfield and Rio Grande for example. But to try to tell the difference at a glance or via a photo, uou simply can't. The point is they were built and you need to know the production dates. You can't tell from a photo unless you know the corresponding F5 numbers. Greg << Greg, Not to be contrary, but I believe that Dave and Roger and have it wrong in their MM article. The F5 was simply an EMD engineering department designation for the very last version of the F3. The EMD marketing department never marketed the late F3 as F5, but simple as an F3. A few roads like the Clinchfield picked up on the EMD Engineering designation of F5 and classified their late F3 locomotives as F5, . . . but this was not an official EMD model. As for appearance, these late F3 [F5] locos were identical to the early F7 -- provided dynamic brakes are ignored. There is no appearance difference between the late F3 and early F7 if no dynamics. On the other hand, late F3s with dynamic brakes had the parallel screened roof vents for DB cooling whereas the early F7s had a 36-inch pan-top cooling fan in place of the twin vents. Jim -------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "Paul Bizier" ; Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:02 AM Subject: [PM-list] EMD PRR F5's > Stu, Bill and listers, > > I actually wonder if those that say the Pennsy did not have F5's know the > spotting features of the F 5 if they saw a photo of one? Could they really > tell? Let me quote David Peck and Roger Boor in their article in Mainline > Modeler Jan/Feb 1982, > > "EMD very quickly lost the unique designation of F 2 and later F 5. F2's > became F-3's, F5's later became F-7's; however that doesn't necessarily mean > the units were rebuilt or changed from their original F 2 or F 5 > configuration." > > This article and the proceeding articles were very comprehensive studies on > the F-units not meant to duplicate the work that Extra 2200 South had done on > the subject almost ten years prior. > > What are the spotting features of the F 5 and how are they different from the > F 3, can anyone tell me how to tell from a picture? I can't and I am doing > an incredible amount of research on the EMD F-UINTS for several up coming > articles. Some Pennsy, some not. With the information I have gathered and > the photo research on the F 5 (and I will tell you some of the prettiest F5's > were the Rio Grande units #5561(A), 5562(B), 5563(B), 5564(A)) I cannot tell > from a picture, but you can from the builders dates and if you were a diesel > mechanic you could because the changes were inside, an upgraded generator and > F 3 traction motors. Tell me again how to spot them in a photo of a Pennsy > engine on the high Iron at 40 MPH, please. From the numbers... > > It is pointless to try to model the difference in an F 3 phase 4 and the F > 5... four 36" diameter fans, twin parallel dynamic brake screened vents, > horizontal stainless grills, and most important delivered from late in > September 1948 to late in January and early February 1949. That makes the > following units F5's: 9542 thru 9555 inclusive and 9679 thru 9689 inclusive. > Hey wait, I was told by an expert that Pennsy did not buy F5's though? Yea > right... I'm no expert and I am not always right [but my wife is 3^) ] but I > did a little research on the subject. The information is out there if you > know where to look. And I think, but I will not swear to the fact that some > of the last F5's received a 36" diameter fan in place of the dynamic brake > exhaust vents, but I need to recheck my color EMD builders photo and get back > to you guys. > > Just remember to do the research and don't take one persons word on a > subject, form your own conclusions. > > I only wish that in all the archives out there someone would have had enough > brains to save a few Purchase Orders from the Motive Power guys during the > transition period. > > So if you want to model an F 5, then pick one of the above numbers and buy a > Stewart F 3 phase 4 shell (s) (from your dealer) and pick up a the matching > number of Bachmann Plus F 7 B-units from Train World (10 bucks plus shipping) > slap them babies together and for about 30 bucks or less you can have a > Pennsy F 5 that runs almost as good as a KATO (some say as good, check the > reviews in RMJ) and laugh all the way to the bank... > > Greg Martin > mostly a rivet counter, sometimes not ... but Outlawed by NMRA Cajon Div > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Scrap your search engine. > Inforocket.com is the fast way to the right answer - guaranteed. > http://click.egroups.com/1/4517/0/_/702554/_/959842970/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Community email addresses: > Post message: PROTOTYPEmodeler@onelist.com > Subscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-subscribe@onelist.com > Unsubscribe: PROTOTYPEmodeler-unsubscribe@onelist.com > List owner: PROTOTYPEmodeler-owner@onelist.com > > Shortcut URL to this page: > http://www.onelist.com/community/PROTOTYPEmodeler > > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 18:54:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion In a message dated 6/2/00 1:50:32 PM Mountain Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Close, but at least a significant number of U25B's had antennas. I think GP35 was first with no antennas, though the antennas might have stopped in the middle of the U25B run. >> I believe you are correct. The early purchases of U25B's had the Antennas, and the later purchases did not. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Steel Industry, kind'a Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 19:34:16 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCC9.8A4C1D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, Based upon comments received, Johnstown appears to be where it is at. = Now where can I find the following (circa 1952)? 1) Map showing rail lines within a, say 20 mile radius of the city? = Major and minor arteries, not necessarily sidings for individual = industries. 2) Relatively detailed map of Conemaugh Yard? 3) Train schedule for Johnstown? With this info in hand, I would be able to narrow down "points of = interest" for inclusion on my pike. Just when I was about to bemoan the lack of mill town homes (at least = the ones I remember) I began looking thru the recently arrived July = Model Railroader. Lo and Behold! On pages 42 and 46, by Ed Fulasz an HO = 3 Story Tenement to Let! Looks like quite a few of the homes I remember = renovating in the Pittsburgh area. Wouldn't surprise me if the basis for = this building is right off McClure St in Homestead. After all, you gotta = house those mill hunkies. (FYI, happen to be an ex Mill hunkie, thanks = and pass the boilermaker) Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCC9.8A4C1D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,

Based upon comments received, Johnstown appears to = be where it=20 is at. Now where can I find the following (circa 1952)?

1) Map showing rail lines within a, say 20 mile = radius of the=20 city? Major and minor arteries, not necessarily sidings for individual=20 industries.

2) Relatively detailed map of Conemaugh = Yard?

3) Train schedule for Johnstown?

With this info in hand, I would be able to narrow = down "points=20 of interest" for inclusion on my pike.

Just when I was about to bemoan the lack of mill = town homes=20 (at least the ones I remember) I began looking thru the recently arrived = July=20 Model Railroader. Lo and Behold! On pages 42 and 46, by Ed = Fulasz an HO=20 3 Story Tenement to Let! Looks like quite a few of the homes I remember=20 renovating in the Pittsburgh area. Wouldn't surprise me if the basis for = this=20 building is right off McClure St in Homestead. After all, you gotta = house those=20 mill hunkies. (FYI, happen to be an ex Mill hunkie, thanks and pass = the=20 boilermaker)

Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BFCCC9.8A4C1D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:00:51 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Firemans Bandana story Gary, Wasn't that group of saboteur's washed ashore during WWII? If I recall correctly the submarine in question (and we won't ask which question) sailed (if that can be the correct word) during WWI. I know old boats (submarines, at least American subs, are called boats. Not enough time nor space to explain it now. However, I can't speak for the Kreigsmarine's Unterseaboatens.) weren't fast sailers, but this is ridiculous. But necessary. Maybe with all that good German Dye (and a couple kegs of Oktoberfest) there wasn't room for the saboteurs. But again, if they were HO scale... Bill Daniels former subsailor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 19:30:16 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] RYPN article on RR Museum of PA Hello list, Railway Preservation News (http://www.rypn.org) has a new feature article on the RR Museum of PA. Click on features, then on the uppermost (the RR Museum of PA) article. Now that I'm 1500 miles from the East Coast, it was nice to visit with some friends of the belpaire fireboxed variety. The article's lead photo has a beautiful shot of H10s 7688. While not as comprehensive as the RR Museum of PA's own page, it was an excellent article. Enjoy! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Re:PRR Firemans Bandana story Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:46:08 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCCD3.9403B560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable History buffs, Few months back, a special was done on the FBI and one of the topics was = sabatoge in the USA, which had a segment about the Nazi attempt to = destroy Our Curve. =20 As memory serves, the teams were put ashore to destroy various sites = (Horseshoe Curve being one, Hoover/Grand Coolie Dam and the Norden = Bombsight plant in Latrobe among others) in late 42 or early 43. Anyway, = one of the members was turned in (or picked up by J Edgar's boys) in New = York City. Seems they couldn't make contact with their American = contacts. Well he turned in his teammates, who turned in others, and so = it went. The bottom line is that they were all picked up before they = could even set off a fuse. So much for German engineering and planning. The only act of 'successful' sabatoge in the USA during that war was the = "mysterious" fire which destroyed the liner Normandie in New York = Harbor. (Gee, how much lead will I catch for going off Pennsy track?) Take care all, Walt Prusick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCCD3.9403B560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
History buffs,

Few months back, a special was done on the FBI and = one of the=20 topics was sabatoge in the USA, which had a segment about the Nazi = attempt to=20 destroy Our Curve.

As memory serves, the teams were put ashore to = destroy various=20 sites (Horseshoe Curve being one, Hoover/Grand Coolie Dam and the Norden = Bombsight plant in Latrobe among others) in late 42 or early 43. Anyway, = one of=20 the members was turned in (or picked up by J Edgar's boys) in New = York=20 City. Seems they couldn't make contact with their American = contacts. Well=20 he turned in his teammates, who turned in others, and so it went. The = bottom=20 line is that they were all picked up before they could even set off a = fuse. So=20 much for German engineering and planning.

The only act of 'successful' sabatoge in the USA = during that=20 war was the "mysterious" fire which destroyed the liner = Normandie=20 in New York Harbor. (Gee, how much lead will I catch for going=20 off Pennsy track?)

Take care all,

Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BFCCD3.9403B560-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Final Comment on F-5 Question Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:36:10 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFCCE2.F313CEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Boy, I made a post the other day...and it seemed at the time to make = sense, and that EMD used the designation, depending on the work orders, = that what we consider Phase IV, F-3's are what these units were. Seems = to make sense. I just wanted to know if the same 567-B engines were used = and whether they (F-5's) would have had the stainless steel grills? Is = it likely that EMD would have changed the diameter of the overhead fans = so late in production of the F-3's? They probably would not have been = turbocharged? Either way, guys, I'm glad I missed the fight over it at = the convention! Regard, Bob Holden ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFCCE2.F313CEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Boy, I made a post the other day...and it seemed at = the time=20 to make sense, and that EMD used the designation, depending on the work = orders,=20 that what we consider Phase IV, F-3's are what these units were. Seems = to make=20 sense. I just wanted to know if the same 567-B engines were used and = whether=20 they (F-5's) would have had the stainless steel grills? Is it likely = that EMD=20 would have changed the diameter of the overhead fans so late in = production of=20 the F-3's? They probably would not have been turbocharged? Either way, = guys, I'm=20 glad I missed the fight over it at the convention!

Regard, Bob Holden
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BFCCE2.F313CEA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Historical Pictures Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:41:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BFCCE3.A3032CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry, I have been contacted by a lady at from the Maryland Historical = Society, who is assisting me in locating many, many pictures of the = Pennsylvania Railroad, in and around the Baltimore area. Included are = pictures of Penn Station and lots of pictures taken in the year 1949. = They are telling me that many of these pictures have never been = published...I'll keep you posted! Regards, Bob Holden ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BFCCE3.A3032CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry, I have been contacted by a lady at from the = Maryland=20 Historical Society, who is assisting me in locating many, many pictures = of the=20 Pennsylvania Railroad, in and around the Baltimore area. Included are = pictures=20 of Penn Station and lots of pictures taken in the year 1949. They are = telling me=20 that many of these pictures have never been published...I'll keep you = posted!=20 Regards, Bob Holden
------=_NextPart_000_0061_01BFCCE3.A3032CC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:46:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PRR Firemans Bandana story Walt's recollection on German saboteurs is correct. One element of the scenario included discovery of plans for demolition of Horseshoe Curve and Gallitzin Tunnels in the Altoona, Pa., area. As a result, these geographical locations were off-limits to everyone during WWII years. This is a specific topic of illustration at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum today....Just look for the WWII German Flag on the museum's first floor and read the information immediately below it. I believe there were six Germans landed off the coast of NJ from a U-Boat. Subsequently captured, the plans were discovered on their person. David Seidel Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:04:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PRR Firemans Bandana story David, I was aware of the true story of the German Sabatores and HorseShoe. When I seen mention of the Submarine in the ongoing gag of the Bandana story, I figured I would tie the true story in with the gag. It all seemed pluasible except one thing. Carrying around a 55 Gallon drum of German Red Dye would be foolish. Luckily the sabatores were caught "red" handed. Ouch! Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:09:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Final Comment on F-5 Question In a message dated 6/2/00 8:39:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time, rholden@superpa.net writes: << Either way, guys, I'm glad I missed the fight over it at the convention! Regard, Bob Holden >> Bob, I am just glad no fights erupted here over it. It was an interesting discussion. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 23:46:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:PRR Firemans Bandana story Guys, Walt Prusick wrote, in part: _________ "The bottom line is that they were all picked up before they could even set off a fuse. So much for German engineering and planning." -------------- I'm not sure how the capture of some would-be sabatuers relates to German engineering, though the planning seemed faulty enough. German engineering seemed good enough to produce the diesel engine(1895), movable type press (1447), air pump (1654), aircraft jet engine (1939), dirigible (1900), auotmobile differential gear (1885),automobile magneto(1897), gas burner in 1855, gasoline carburetor in 1893, cathode ray oscioscope (1897), automatic transmission, compression ignition engine, gasoline engine, geiger counter, guncotten, microscope, electonic microscope, motorcycle, photoelectric cell, astonomical telescope (Kepler was ahead of Galileo, who "Borrowed" some of Johan's ideas), mercury thermometer, and a few other odds and ends we find useful. Wonder where our space program would be without Werner Von Braun and some of his cohorts? The German MG42 was the basis for our M60, and even Patton admitted our armored vehicles were no match for those of the Germans without odds in our favor. Guess the point is, it's a big leap to gauge German engineering by the capture of some undercover stumblebums. And considering what sorts of misinformation has come out of some Federal law enforcement agencies over recent years, I'd take any government claims made during WWII to be very highly suspect. Particularly so during an era when propaganda flowed very freely from our leaders. I imagine such stories had a soothing effect after German commandos freed Musolini from Allied captivity during the war. The only place our side ever pulled off anything like that was in Hollywood. Maybe this whole Horseshoe Curve legend was simply a morale booster. I have, for example, a fiction tale written before the release of the FBI story that describes exactly the same scenario, called "Long Trains Rolling". Who knows? I've got 28 years Federal Service, though, and may have come to beleive them less than others . Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 01:19:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Dry Flow covered hopper... In a message dated 6/2/2000 10:28:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, robs@actel.com writes: << Hi Rick, I guess after your presentation at the convention that you're Mr. PRR Covered hopper so I figured I'd check with you on whether these are right for Pennsy.... Eastern Car Works is doing 3500 Cubic Foot Dry Flo Covered Hoppers. I'm pretty sure that the Pennsy had some but can't remember for sure... If they did, what class were they? There's a photo at... http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/117-2640 Thanks! Rob >> I'd like to see one of these to check the details. However, the H41 is a 3500 cf Dry Flo car. There were 12 of them (2 orders of 6), and pictures of the PRR cars are very scarce. >From what I can see in the photo, the body of the car is like the PRR's -- but the bottom gates might require some modification. There will be 2-3 photos appearing in the Keystone article, and its final form will tell all that's known about the lettering on this car. One interesting fillip -- if you own the Compendium that Middle Division put out some time back, you can find a PK (plain keystone) drawing for the H41. So far as we know, no cars were ever delivered or repainted in this scheme. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 01:47:02 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve sabotage [was: PRR Fireman's Bandana story} Greetings to Walt, Barry, Dave, Gary, and the List: The sharing of this story prompted me to go back and unearth a pile of research material I gathered as a consultant for ARMM (including the first-floor exhibit that Dave mentioned). For any who are interested, this summary may piece it all together: -- the number of Nazi saboteurs arrested was eight, all of whom had previously lived in the U.S. and two of whom were U.S. citizens. Trained at the German High Command's spy school in Berlin, they arrived by submarine in two groups of four, at Amagansett, Long Island (on June 13, 1942), and Ponte Vedra Beach (near Jacksonville), Fla. (on June 17, 1942). -- their arrests took place at various times and various locations, mostly in New York City and Chicago, and the announcement was made by the FBI on June 27, 1942. -- among the PRR targets were not only Horseshoe Curve and Gallitzin tunnels but also an unspecified installation at Newark (one of the drawbridges, perhaps?), and Hell Gate Bridge. The plans also included targets on the C&O. The FBI and the New York Times noted that the German engineering in the explosives was far more ingenious than the spies' ability to escape detection. Also, the Times commented that they did not have an accurate grasp of U.S. geography, since they had plans to blow up "canals and locks of the Ohio River between Cincinnati and St. Louis"--St. Louis not lying along the Ohio River. Other targets included several ALCOA aluminum plants, hydro plants, water supply systems, and--hardly seeming to fit the definition of defense installations--department stores in New York City and suburbs. -- on July 1 in Altoona, the FBI detained 250 aliens, that is, non-U.S.-citizens, including an unspecified number who worked in the PRR shops, who were suspected of harboring sympathies for the German cause. -- the eight spies were tried swiftly by a special military commission. FDR approved death sentences for all eight but accepted the commission's recommendation to grant clemency to two who had cooperated in helping identify and apprehend the others. -- six were executed by electric chair at the District of Columbia Jail in Washington, D.C., on Aug. 9, 1942. The other two were given prison sentences ranging from 30 years to life. -- The juvenile fiction book "The Long Trains Roll" by Stephen W. Meader, was based on the account of the Nazis' intent to blow up Horseshoe Curve. It was first published in 1944. It contains some nice line drawings that are obviously of identifiable PRR locomotive classes, mostly I1s. Copies of the book in good condition today bring up to $90, although worn ex-library copies can be had for a third of that. FWIW Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Northern Division Trip Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:45:52 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCD38.1FF55E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wayne...I did recieve your outstanding post! Not only that, but I = printed it...and put it in the RV to take with us. That you would take = the time to put this together for me, is wonderful. Thank you again! I = will capture as much as I can on film and video...but you and many = others on this board have given me a great sendoff. I am grateful...and = look forward to exploring a chunk of the regions served by the PRR...and = what I find I will share with all of us.=20 Regards,=20 Bob Holden, PRRT&HS #5044 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCD38.1FF55E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wayne...I did recieve your outstanding post! Not = only that,=20 but I printed it...and put it in the RV to take with us. That you would = take the=20 time to put this together for me, is wonderful. Thank you again! I will = capture=20 as much as I can on film and video...but you and many others on this = board have=20 given me a great sendoff. I am grateful...and look forward to = exploring a=20 chunk of the regions served by the PRR...and what I find I will share = with all=20 of us.

Regards,

Bob Holden, PRRT&HS #5044
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFCD38.1FF55E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:09:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Dry Flow covered hopper... On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > There will be 2-3 photos appearing in the Keystone article, and its final > form will tell all that's known about the lettering on this car. One > interesting fillip -- if you own the Compendium that Middle Division put out > some time back, you can find a PK (plain keystone) drawing for the H41. So > far as we know, no cars were ever delivered or repainted in this scheme. The compendium was available from them at this year's convention incidentally; I picked one up. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 10:44:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Horseshoe Curve sabotage [was: PRR Fireman's Bandana Dan, After reading this part of what you've written: --------- The juvenile fiction book "The Long Trains Roll" by Stephen W. Meader, was based on the account of the Nazis' intent to blow up Horseshoe Curve. It was first published in 1944. It contains some nice line drawings that are obviously of identifiable PRR locomotive classes, mostly I1s. Copies of the book in good condition today bring up to $90, although worn ex-library copies can be had for a third of that. ---------------- I've gotta find where I buried that thing now and get it on EBAY. The copy is in pretty decent condition and might be convertible to a B74 and B60 . Now what box is it in? Also, the mention of rounding up 250 "hostile aliens" rings a bell. It was incredible how easy it was to be branded a nazi sympathiser in those dark days. My dad, for example had inlisted in the US Navy right out of high school in 1938 and had more than three years service by the time of Pearl Harbor. A few days after our entry into the war, he was hauled into the captain's shipboard office and told he was suspected of being an enemy sympathiser after saying he didn't think we'd be able to beat the Germans within six months. An uncle was questioned at an FBI office and put under surveylence when he was reported for too-loudly playing classical music written by such Germanic enemies as Bach and Wagner. Such were the glory days, and hell had no fury like that of the homefront patriots. Thank goodness actual fighting men seldom aquired such mindless hatreds. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Continuing Saga of the T1 Window Trim! �� List, I found an additional T1 photo in my collection this morning. It is interesting because it is a Builders Portrait. Seen here is T1 #5533 on April 28 1946, her completion date. Location is the Baldwin Plant at Eddystone. This is a nice B&W side view. Seen fairly plainly is the window trim. It is painted DGLE. The only aluminum trim noticable is the portholes on the pilot shrouding and they show up well. The Brass Builders Plate shows well also. Now, I have also seen other photos of the window trim as a metalic color. and in later years the window trim appears dark again. What does all this mean? Here is my theory. When built, as seen in my builders photo of 5533, the window trim was painted the same as the locomotive. After years in service or perhaps months, the paint started to flake off the aluminum trim. Then it was removed completely when it got too bad. Afterall these were the premier passenger locos of the day and an ugly looking loco would be frowned upon. The explanation back to darker window trim of the very late 40's and into 1950 has puzzled me. Could aluminum tarnish that much to an almost black apperance?. Or is it caked on soot in all those later photos or was it just repainted again? Once again speculating on this little detail. Sam, we might find you the answer yet!...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:14:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] STORY Two Nawffik Su'thun supervisors off the Pee-d-mont Division decided they weren't > going anywhere in life and thought they should go to college to get ahead. The first > goes in to see the counselor, who tells him to take Math, History, and Logic. > > "What's logic?" the first NS redneck boss asks. > > The professor answers by saying, "Let me give you an example. > Do you own a weedeater?" > > "I sure do." > > "Then I can assume, using logic, that you have a yard," replied the > professor. > > "That's real good!" says the NS supervisor. > > The professor continues, "Logic will also tell me that since you have a > yard, you also own a house." > > Impressed, the NS redneck says, "Amazin!" > > "And since you own a house, logic dictates that you have a wife." > > "That's Betty Mae! This is incredible!" The NS redneck is obviously > catching on. > > "Finally, since you have a wife, logically I can assume that you are > heterosexual," said the professor. > > "You're absolutely right! Why that's the most fascinatin' thing Iever > heard! I cain't wait to take that logic class!" The NS boss, proud of > the new world opening up to him, walks back into the hallway where his > friend is still waiting. > > "So what classes are ya takin'?" asks the friend. > > "Math, History, and Logic!" replies the first NS redneck. > > "What in tarnation is logic?" asks his friend. > > "Let me give you an example. Do ya own a weedeater?" asks the first NS > redneck. > > "No," his friend replies. > > "Yer QUEER, ain't ya?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 12:41:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] B70A scenery Express Car Folks, I just picked up the Bethlehem Car Works HO B70A kit. This version is the "modern" style, with porthole windows. Anyone know when they received this makeover from the paneled doors, and if they lost thier nanes at that time? Thanks for any help. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:42:31 -0400 From: demcneil Subject: [PRR] re: T-1 window trim I've been following the thread on the T-1 window trim and here's my $.02. It only applies for certain to 6110 and only as delivered. To my eye from the picture I have the trim piece is either aluminum or stainless matching the color of the cab ladder rails and the walkway railings. I've scanned and blown up the image as much as possible and don't see any colored tint to these pieces. The pictures were taken by Baldwin at Eddystone on delivery day as there are some "hats" getting their due. There are two full page color shots of 6110 and 2 shots of 6111 in the book "Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World" In the book it's very clear that the color is Dulux Gold and that the portholes on both engines are in fact Dulux. Also the difference is color between the numbers and window trim is more obvious. I don't have or can't find the exact delivery dates for these two engines, but 4/42 and 5/42 are listed in Edson's "Keystone Steam and Electric" The shots of 6111 are too tight to see the window trim, but the boiler mounted hand rails are all painted DGLE and with a magnifier it appears the window trim may also be DGLE. So we haven't really resolved the issue except for 6110. Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 14:43:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR XL Box Car Classes Hello I just received my Summer 2000, Keystone. Quickly flipping through the article on the XL Box Car classes, I noticed that there were no pictures of these cars in MOW Service. I model the 1950's and by then any remaining XL's were in MOW service. Anyone know where pictures can be found? On the web or in books. I haven't checked the two color guides yet, but I will later this evening. Regards Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 15:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown Hello, Anyone know if there was passenger service from PRR Johnstown south on the B&O line? Who operated the yard at Woodvail that connected the two railroads? Thax Mark L. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 13:24:38 -0700 From: Bill Daniels Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Horseshoe Curve sabotage [was: PRR Fireman's At 10:44 AM 6/3/00 -0400, BPX29@aol.com wrote: >Also, the mention of rounding up 250 "hostile aliens" rings a bell. It was >incredible how easy it was to be branded a nazi sympathiser in those dark >days. Imagine how easy it was to be branded a Japanese sympathizer if you were of Japanese descent. I remember seeing in an old issue of LIFE an article on "how to tell the difference between a Jap and a Chinese"...complete with pictures. Ah, yes...the good old days. They were good if you were of the right sex, race, ethnicity, and religion. >My dad, for example had inlisted in the US Navy right out of high >school in 1938 and had more than three years service by the time of Pearl >Harbor. A few days after our entry into the war, he was hauled into the >captain's shipboard office and told he was suspected of being an enemy >sympathiser after saying he didn't think we'd be able to beat the Germans >within six months. Your dad was right. And to make matters worse, the Navy didn't even work well with the much more experienced English (who were supposed to be our allies!). For example, in the field of anti-submarine warfare we had to re-learn everything the Brits had already learned. >An uncle was questioned at an FBI office and put under >surveylence when he was reported for too-loudly playing classical music >written by such Germanic enemies as Bach and Wagner. Up until a year or so ago it was illegal to perform Wagner in Israel. >Such were the glory >days, and hell had no fury like that of the homefront patriots. Thank >goodness actual fighting men seldom aquired such mindless hatreds. Barry, many of the actual fighting men didn't, but then there were some notable exceptions. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:05:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown Mark and list. The Johnstown branch came off the main at "C" and went about a mile or so to connect to the B&O. The Frt. station and various tracks with platforms were in front of the station were cars could be unloaded along with a track along the frt. station to unload. Just which of these tracks went to the B&O I no longer remember. The connection as I remember from paper work was with the Johnstown & Stoney Creek RR. Don't know if this was the connecting RR or if they leased RR from one of the two or what, but later it all became Chessie at the time. Can any one give better details on the J&SCRR? The Conemaugh & Black Lick RR also connected to the branch just before the frt station and interchanged cars at the Cambria yard which started just after coming off at "C" tower. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:30:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam In a message dated 6/1/00 10:41:00 PM Central Daylight Time, lauterbach@peachnet.campuscwix.net writes: << I also have quite a few Bowser engines, even with all the super detailing they look good but not as good as a Life Like or Spectrum engine straight out of the box. Just my 2 cents worth, >> Agree wholeheartedly. Now, if they could just get those plastic engines to pull 120-140 cars on the level and 18-28 on a 4% grade, we'd be home free. The latest issue of RMJ gives a comparison of a Bowser M1 with DC71, Helix Humper, and NWSL conversions and my recollection is those are the results of drawbar pull tests. My M1 with a Helix humper will pull 26 on a 1.5% grade, but I haven't tried more. Bob (still trying to get my Bachmann K4 to pull more than 3 cars) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 18:58:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Continuing Saga of the T1 Window Trim! In a message dated 6/3/00 10:47:09 AM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Now, I have also seen other photos of the window trim as a metalic color. >> Hard to tell, but the spring 1947 view on page 107 of Don Ball's color book seems to show aluminum (?) window trim, but all other views show either dirty or DGLE. Is a puzzlement. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 19:45:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 PKMac1@aol.com wrote: > Mark and list. The Johnstown branch came off the main at "C" and went about > a mile or so to connect to the B&O. The Frt. station and various tracks with > platforms were in front of the station were cars could be unloaded along with > a track along the frt. station to unload. Just which of these tracks went to > the B&O I no longer remember. The connection as I remember from paper work > was with the Johnstown & Stoney Creek RR. Don't know if this was the > connecting RR or if they leased RR from one of the two or what, but later it > all became Chessie at the time. Can any one > give better details on the J&SCRR? The Conemaugh & Black Lick RR also > connected to the branch just before the frt station and interchanged cars at > the Cambria yard which started just after coming off at "C" tower. Further "south" at one of the bends in Stony Creek, at the south end of a yard in the Hornerstown section, the B&O takes off straight, crossing to the south side of the creek/river on a bridge which also takes it over Valley Pike; The J&S stayed on the north bank. North and south are relative to there because just upstream a ways, at Ferndale, the creek twists around a bit... anyhow the J&S served various industries in the Moxham area, including the U.S. Steel Johnstown plant (where I seem to recall they made specialty rail work among other things), crossing Central Avenue in Moxham just "east" of where it crossed Stony Creek and then running behind said mill, crossing Bridge St (currently PA 403) right off the bridge it's named for, ducking under the Johnstown Traction streetcar bridge carrying their Ferndale line (ex-Benscreek until about 1954, exx-Windber interurban until the 1936 flood, and the way into town for Johnstown and Somerset interurbans from Jerome earlier than that) and continuing on that bank to opposite the far end of Ferndale, where the B&O crossed back to that side, picked up the J&S, and went into a tunnel. I don't know who owned the J&S but in recent times the Cambria County Transit Authority bought it, lifted the rails and converted it to a bike trail, at least part of it. I talked to the then-head of the CCTA in 1990, Harold Jenkins(*), and at that point they owned the J&S but had not yet lifted rails. The crossing in Central Avenue was buried but the railhead was visible. Any layout in Johnstown before June 11, 1960 can potentially include bits of their streetcar system, which at that late date (after 1947, actually) ran PCCs almost exactly like the one Bowser offers. -D * - a fluke; I stopped in the office in Moxham to pick up some schedules and happened to mention something to the lady at the desk, and she took me back to see him ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 16:47:39 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown --- PKMac1@aol.com wrote: > Mark and list. The Johnstown branch came off the > main at "C" and went about > a mile or so to connect to the B&O > Just which > of these tracks went to > the B&O I no longer remember. The connection as I > remember from paper work > was with the Johnstown & Stoney Creek RR. The much-maligned "Triumph I" has a diagram of the Johnstown area in question. Don't remember the page number nor the date on the diagram. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 16:52:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 PKMac1@aol.com wrote: > > twists around a bit... anyhow the J&S served various > industries in the > Moxham area, including the U.S. Steel Johnstown > plant (where I seem to > recall they made specialty rail work among other > things), Wasn't that Bethlehem Steel rather than USS? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:16:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown Bob. J&S went to USS, Beth.Steel was served buy its own Conemaugh & Black Lick at interchanges with the Pennsy at Cambria yd and Morrellville yd which connected to old #6 track at "SG" as it headed out the Sang Hollow Extension. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:15:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown From: "Doug and Marianne" Mark: > Hello, Anyone know if there was passenger service from PRR Johnstown > south on the B&O line? I believe that there was very little freight interchange between the PRR and the B&O in Johnstown, and likely no passenger service. The B&O line entered Johnstown along the Stoney Creek from the south. Its main purpose was to serve the US Steel plants along the Stoney Creek corridor. The PRR followed the Conemaugh River. The only connection between the PRR and B&O was a single track through the backside of downtown that actually connected to the Conemaugh & Black Lick, not to the PRR directly. The Conemaugh & Black Lick served the several Bethlehem Steel mills along the Conemaugh River corridor and likely did some interchange with the B&O. I believe that virtually all B&O freight on this line originated in Johnstown rather than any interchange with the PRR. The B&O freight house still stands and the line is operated by CSX with a few trains per week, consisting mostly of tank cars. > Who operated the yard at Woodvail that connected the two railroads? The large yard in Woodvale is the PRR Conemaugh Yard witch also housed (continuing today) the western helper (snapper) terminal for the west slope climb to the Alleghany summit. This was not an interchange yard. Adjacent to Conemaugh Yard (to the south) is the interchange yard between the PRR and the Conemaugh & Black Lick, which still functions today. It is possible that some freight from the Bethlehem mills was collected in this yard before transfer to the B&O. Johnstown is a fascinating place, even today. But what I would give to see the PRR fleet passing through Johnstown 50 years ago. I hope this helps. Doug Nelson Mill Valley, CA babal@slip.net ---------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:18:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, robert netzlof wrote: > --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 PKMac1@aol.com wrote: > > > > > twists around a bit... anyhow the J&S served various > > industries in the > > Moxham area, including the U.S. Steel Johnstown > > plant (where I seem to > > recall they made specialty rail work among other > > things), > > Wasn't that Bethlehem Steel rather than USS? Nil, the USS mill in Moxham was ex-Lorain Steel; Across the street is still the "USSCO Johnstown Federal Credit Union" -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 22:24:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 PKMac1@aol.com wrote: > Bob. J&S went to USS, Beth.Steel was served buy its own Conemaugh & Black > Lick at interchanges with the Pennsy at Cambria yd and Morrellville yd which > connected to old #6 track at "SG" as it headed out the Sang Hollow Extension. The connection to the C&BL from the PRR at the far (from downtown Johnstown) end of the Cambria City section was also still visible until very recently, but the track which crossed PA56/PA403 was removed in the last few years. There's a "Donut Deli" I think right next to where it used to cross, and it lined up perfectly with a bridge over the Conemaugh there to the C&BL shop and trackage on the north side of the Conemaugh. This is right near Bill Volkmer's over/under shot in Morrellville in PDY (I think PDY4)... where an old Johnstown Traction streetcar is headed under a PRR train headed by a GP7 or GP9... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:14:36 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, robert netzlof wrote: > > > --- Derrick J Brashear > wrote: > > > On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 PKMac1@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > twists around a bit... anyhow the J&S served > various > > > industries in the > > > Moxham area, including the U.S. Steel Johnstown > > > plant (where I seem to > > > recall they made specialty rail work among other > > > things), > > > > Wasn't that Bethlehem Steel rather than USS? > > Nil, the USS mill in Moxham was ex-Lorain Steel; > Across the street is > still the "USSCO Johnstown Federal Credit Union" > I meant "Wasn't it Bethlehem that had the specialty rail work plant?" Perhaps USS did too, but all the ads I recall were touting Bethlehem's trackwork facility. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Sabotage/Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:40:13 -0700 Bill Daniels wrote: > Imagine how easy it was to be branded a Japanese sympathizer if you were of > Japanese descent. Easy enough to convince President Roosevelt to sign an executive order directing the forcible removal of all Americans of Japanese descent from the West Coast in 1942 to internment (read concentration) camps in the mountain states. Additionally, all Japanese-Americans serving in the armed forces in December 1941 were immediately discharged from service (including a large chunk of the Hawaiian National Guard). Despite all of this, many of them rushed to enlist in the all-volunteer 100th Infantry Regiment/442nd Regimental Combat Team, where they more than proved their loyalty in some of the hardest fighting in the war in Italy and southern Germany. > I remember seeing in an old issue of LIFE an article on "how to tell the difference > between a Jap and a Chinese"...complete with pictures. Ah, yes...the good old days. They > were good if you were of the right sex, race, ethnicity, and religion. > Thank goodness actual fighting men seldom aquired such mindless hatreds. The Japanese were easy to vilify as enemies, either as hopelessly incompetent before Pearl Harbor, or as bloodthirsty barbaric neo-samurai afterwards, especially as word of atrocities committed against POWs and civilians came out. To most Americans, the Japanese seemed alien, especially compared to the more familiar European enemy. The war in the Pacific took on an added ferocity, especially when virulent racist propaganda was coupled with the fact that the Japanese fought to the bitter end in each battle on the road to Tokyo. Enough of this thread already - it's just getting way too depressing. Anyone have any other ideas on foreign road stockcars in FW-8? I only got one answer the last time I posted the question indicating that CNW cars were common, and the photographic evidence that I have on hand confirms that fact (the green and yellow of the CNW stockcars makes them real easy to pick out), but there's still quite a few holes to fill, namely the availability of steam-era PRR stockcar models - here's a few discussion points: 1) Kitbashing K7 and K8 stockcars from existing models looks like a difficult proposition at best. The ex-TMI/Walthers car has the right proportions for a K8, but the truss runs the wrong way. Because the slats vary in width, you can't even cut the sides loose and flip them to correct this. The K7's, rebuilt from X24 boxcars, have even fewer alternatives, none of which comes to mind outside of buying brass. 2) Plastic models of foreign road cars looks like a "good news, bad news" story. The Proto 2000 Mather cars are great, and if these turn out to be among the CNW cars seen on the trains, that makes the task a little easier. I haven't found any of these in the green and yellow scheme, though. The Athearn car is actually a decent model of the 1951 AAR Stock Car design built in good numbers for Union Pacific, though I can't readily pick them out of the pictures that I have (they date before the UP started to paint their cars yellow, though the aluminum ends and roof should have even made the brown cars stand out). The old AHM car (the tall one, not the one using tooling from their "X29/1932 ARA Boxcar", and I say that loosely, low boxcar) is an NYC prototype converted from USRA SS boxcars. Any ideas? Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Proto 1000 C-liner Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:40:34 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFCD9B.F7931620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Hoxie wrote: I am detailing two Proto 1000 C-liners. In the photos that I have showing the roofs of these units, there are two what I assume to be lift rings at the rear, prominently protruding above the roof line. Does anyone have a photo of the rear of an FF16 that shows these lift rings? Steve, check out Withers' Publishing C-Liners by David Sweetland - it has many photos of PRR C-Liners, and the rear lift rings are definitely a prominent feature. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFCD9B.F7931620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steve Hoxie=20 wrote:

I am detailing two Proto 1000 C-liners. In the photos that I = have=20 showing the roofs of these units, there are two what I assume to be lift = rings=20 at the rear, prominently protruding above the roof line. Does = anyone have=20 a photo of the rear of an FF16 that shows these lift rings?

Steve, check out Withers' = Publishing=20 C-Liners by David Sweetland - it has many photos of PRR C-Liners, = and=20 the rear lift rings are definitely a prominent=20 feature.

Ben=20 Hom
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFCD9B.F7931620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR XL Box Car Classes Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 20:40:17 -0700 Brian, Both color guides contain many photos of XL boxcars converted to MOW service in both gray and yellow. Additionally, Westerfield has kits for the MOW conversions and has model photos on his website, as well as prototype photos on his video catalog and CD-ROM. Ben Hom -----Original Message----- From: [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of FarbLand@aol.com Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2000 11:43 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR XL Box Car Classes Hello I just received my Summer 2000, Keystone. Quickly flipping through the article on the XL Box Car classes, I noticed that there were no pictures of these cars in MOW Service. I model the 1950's and by then any remaining XL's were in MOW service. Anyone know where pictures can be found? On the web or in books. I haven't checked the two color guides yet, but I will later this evening. Regards Brian J Carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:36:44 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown From: "Doug and Marianne" Derrick and List: > The connection to the C&BL from the PRR at the far (from downtown > Johnstown) end of the Cambria City section was also still visible until > very recently, but the track which crossed PA56/PA403 was removed in the I believe that the Conemaugh & Black Lick also interchanged with the PRR at Conemaugh Yard in Woodvale, very close to C Tower. Doug Nelson Mill Valley, CA babal@slip.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 00:10:37 -0400 From: ERIC LAUTERBACH Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit vs. ready to run steam I agree that the new steam does not pull like a Bowser. That being said, there are very few who have a layout to pull that number of cars. Also it has been my expirence that a smaller train looks more appropriate. Regardless of layout size. Sure a huge train would look good if you could have a scale mountain range or other scenery. AS for the K4, I would not put it in the same class as the other sprectrum steam engines and the new life like. I think the K4 came out in the late eighties or early nineties. Eric Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 6/1/00 10:41:00 PM Central Daylight Time, > lauterbach@peachnet.campuscwix.net writes: > > << I also have quite a few > Bowser engines, even with all the super detailing they look good but not > as good as a Life Like or Spectrum engine straight out of the box. > Just my 2 cents worth, >> > > Agree wholeheartedly. Now, if they could just get those plastic engines to > pull 120-140 cars on the level and 18-28 on a 4% grade, we'd be home free. > The latest issue of RMJ gives a comparison of a Bowser M1 with DC71, Helix > Humper, and NWSL conversions and my recollection is those are the results of > drawbar pull tests. My M1 with a Helix humper will pull 26 on a 1.5% grade, > but I haven't tried more. > > Bob (still trying to get my Bachmann K4 to pull more than 3 cars) Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 01:18:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Sabotage/Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 In a message dated 6/3/00 10:48:49 PM Central Daylight Time, b.hom@worldnet.att.net writes: << The Proto 2000 Mather cars are great, and if these turn out to be among the CNW cars seen on the trains, that makes the task a little easier. I haven't found any of these in the green and yellow scheme, though. >> I've been told that these cars didn't appear in the green and yellow scheme and therefore P1K wasn't going to do them, but I need to reverify that with a C&NW expert--will do that tomorrow. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 02:18:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown On Sat, 3 Jun 2000, robert netzlof wrote: > > Nil, the USS mill in Moxham was ex-Lorain Steel; > > Across the street is > > still the "USSCO Johnstown Federal Credit Union" > > > I meant "Wasn't it Bethlehem that had the specialty > rail work plant?" Perhaps USS did too, but all the ads > I recall were touting Bethlehem's trackwork facility. I went to a symposium at Lee Hospital auditorium in downtown Johnstown about 10 years ago when the author of a book on the history of the mill in question was talking; While I think there was a Bethlehem rail mill, I know the USS mill did specialty rail, maybe not always, but they made frogs and other such items, especially for street railways -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 06:14:32 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCDEC.263BEA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List members, Dang, Ben Horn beat me to the punch with his post concerning the NYC = stockcar from the AHM 'tall' stockcar. A few years back either MR or MRC = ran an article, which prompted me to do the 'follow the bouncing ball' = upgrade. Very straight forward replace the grabs, convert to KD's and = replace the trucks. The only semi-tricky portion of the upgrade = concerned the adjustable second floor. Here the modeler shaved/trimmed the adjusting mechanism (located along = one side, along the sill), but leaving the mounting brackets. Drill out = these brackets, slip in a metal rod, and use those extra KD springs to = represent the wrapped cable coming from the second floor. For my money, = turned out nice and an easy project for even the faint of heart. But is a NYC stockcar 'acceptable' on FW-8? Would they be seen on Pennsy = trackage on Herrs Island stockyards in Pittsburgh? I got the cars, but = can I use them? (sigh). Walt Prusick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCDEC.263BEA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List members,

Dang, Ben Horn beat me to the punch with his post = concerning=20 the NYC stockcar from the AHM 'tall' stockcar. A few years back either = MR or=20 MRC ran an article, which prompted me to do the 'follow the = bouncing ball'=20 upgrade. Very straight forward replace the grabs, convert to KD's and = replace=20 the trucks. The only semi-tricky portion of the upgrade concerned = the=20 adjustable second floor.

Here the modeler shaved/trimmed the adjusting=20 mechanism (located along one side, along the sill), but leaving the = mounting brackets. Drill out these brackets, slip in a metal rod, and = use those=20 extra KD springs to represent the wrapped cable coming from the second = floor.=20 For my money, turned out nice and an easy project for even the faint of=20 heart.

But is a NYC stockcar 'acceptable' on FW-8? = Would they be=20 seen on Pennsy trackage on Herrs Island stockyards in Pittsburgh? I got = the=20 cars, but can I use them? (sigh).

Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BFCDEC.263BEA60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Historical Research Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 09:49:37 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFCE0A.3228E940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ken...No problem with your request... I am waiting for an e-mail = response from the lady who is handling our request. I have spent many = tedious hours searching the data base...until my eyes gave out. I = believe they are going to personaly assist us...as we are (PRRT&HS) also = a historical society. The fact that you live in the area is fine, too! = I'll keep you posted...but it shouldn't take to much time to set up a = date. Regards, Bob ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFCE0A.3228E940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ken...No problem with your request... I am waiting = for an=20 e-mail response from the lady who is handling our request. I have spent = many=20 tedious hours searching the data base...until my eyes gave out. I = believe they=20 are going to personaly assist us...as we are (PRRT&HS) also a = historical=20 society. The fact that you live in the area is fine, too! I'll keep you=20 posted...but it shouldn't take to much time to set up a date. Regards,=20 Bob
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFCE0A.3228E940-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] T-1 Windows Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 09:57:50 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFCE0B.5825D620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob...It seems that the later in life T-1 pictures that I have = viewed...at least what color photos that I have...show many of the T-1 = trim exactly as you described it...either, buffed out...or plain DGLE. = It's interesting that the 1947 company photographs from Baldwin show the = window trim as a buffed aluminum, or buffed stainless steel color. But = later in life, especially about 1953, it's DGLE. Could it be paint that = just wore off? Just my thoughts...all the same, if you get the Baldwin = Big Wigs out of the company photos you truly see what a magnificent = locomotive the T-1 was. Bob Holden ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFCE0B.5825D620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob...It seems that the later in life T-1 pictures = that I have=20 viewed...at least what color photos that I have...show many of the T-1 = trim=20 exactly as you described it...either, buffed out...or plain DGLE. It's=20 interesting that the 1947 company photographs from Baldwin show the = window trim=20 as a buffed aluminum, or buffed stainless steel color. But later in = life,=20 especially about 1953, it's DGLE. Could it be paint that just wore off? = Just my=20 thoughts...all the same, if you get the Baldwin Big Wigs out of the = company=20 photos you truly see what a magnificent locomotive the T-1 = was.

Bob Holden
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BFCE0B.5825D620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 11:30:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 In a message dated 6/4/00 5:18:35 AM Central Daylight Time, walpru@stargate.net writes: << But is a NYC stockcar 'acceptable' on FW-8? >> I realize this might be a question for the Prototype Modeler list, but are we talking about the doubledeck AHM stockcars with the rod along the lower side? A club North of here is collecting those to reletter in CB&Q for a train from sheep country. Are they wrong in their choice of prototype? Or did they just choose a reasonable "closest compromise" for their needs? Only reason I mention it is that if it was also usable as a CB&Q car, it might make it to FW8 more likely than NYC. I will check with their leader to see about his sources (now I have two research projects). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 08:48:05 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFCE01.994CCE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt Prusick wrote: Dang, Ben Hom beat me to the punch with his post concerning the NYC stockcar from the AHM 'tall' stockcar. A few years back either MR or MRC ran an article, which prompted me to do the 'follow the bouncing ball' upgrade. Very straight forward replace the grabs, convert to KD's and replace the trucks. The only semi-tricky portion of the upgrade concerned the adjustable second floor. Here the modeler shaved/trimmed the adjusting mechanism (located along one side, along the sill), but leaving the mounting brackets. Drill out these brackets, slip in a metal rod, and use those extra KD springs to represent the wrapped cable coming from the second floor. For my money, turned out nice and an easy project for even the faint of heart. I agree with Walt - it is a neat car, and one that's readily found on the secondhand market (though painted for every road except NYC, including Pennsy!). Two articles on the car have appeared in the recent past - one by Greg Martin in Mainline Modeler, and another in RMC (though I can't remember the author - I'm currently on the road and don't have my resources in front of me). Greg's conversion is the easier of the two - the one major problem of this AHM car is that the car was widened to fit the "universal" AHM underframe (it should be a foot narrower, since the cars were rebuilt from USRA SS boxcars). To correct this, the author of the RMC article cut the cars in half lengthwise on a table saw. Frankly, I'd take Greg's approach. But is a NYC stockcar 'acceptable' on FW-8? Would they be seen on Pennsy trackage on Herrs Island stockyards in Pittsburgh? I got the cars, but can I use them? (sigh). There's the heart of the question. Ben Hom ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFCE01.994CCE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Walt Prusick wrote:

Dang, Ben Hom beat me to=20 the punch with his post concerning the NYC stockcar from the AHM 'tall'=20 stockcar. A few years back either MR or MRC ran an article, which = prompted=20 me to do the 'follow the bouncing ball' upgrade. Very straight forward = replace=20 the grabs, convert to KD's and replace the trucks. The only semi-tricky = portion=20 of the upgrade concerned the adjustable second floor.

Here the modeler shaved/trimmed the adjusting=20 mechanism (located along one side, along the sill), but leaving the = mounting brackets. Drill out these brackets, slip in a metal rod, and = use those=20 extra KD springs to represent the wrapped cable coming from the second = floor.=20 For my money, turned out nice and an easy project for even the faint of=20 heart.

I agree with Walt - it is a neat car, and one that's readily found = on the=20 secondhand market (though painted for every road except NYC, = including=20 Pennsy!). Two articles on the car have appeared in the recent past = - one=20 by Greg Martin in Mainline Modeler, and another in RMC (though I can't = remember=20 the author - I'm currently on the road and don't have my resources in = front of=20 me). Greg's conversion is the easier of the two - the one major = problem of=20 this AHM car is that the car was widened to fit the "universal" AHM = underframe=20 (it should be a foot narrower, since the cars were rebuilt from USRA SS=20 boxcars). To correct this, the author of the RMC article cut the = cars in=20 half lengthwise on a table saw. Frankly, I'd take Greg's=20 approach.

But is a NYC stockcar 'acceptable' on FW-8? = Would they be=20 seen on Pennsy trackage on Herrs Island stockyards in Pittsburgh? I got = the=20 cars, but can I use them? (sigh).

There's the heart of the = question.

Ben=20 Hom
------=_NextPart_000_0000_01BFCE01.994CCE60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 12:30:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car marker lights I am in the process of updating my Cabin Car fleet with working marker lights. This has led to quite a discussion among some of my local friends. In a couple of video's that I have seen, I've noticed that in the period that I model (mid-late 60's), the PRR had flashing marker lights on their cabins. These marker lights looked like the highway construction flashing light you see on baracades with a lense on the top and a yellow battery box on the bottom. What I have not been able to verify is this... Did all the cabin get retrofitted with these 'flashing markers'? Where there any that had lit marker that did NOT flash (and no, I'm not talking about the older style kerosene marker lights but the newer electric markers) Did these light flash together, alternately or independently? Any info anyone can provide will be helpful. Thanks Mark Frysztacki PRR Northern Division ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:48:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion I sent this before, but it never showed up in the list, so I'm resending it. ------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 06/02/2000 6:03:25 PM Central Daylight Time, Stuthayer@aol.com writes: << << Close, but at least a significant number of U25B's had antennas. I think GP35 was first with no antennas, though the antennas might have stopped in the middle of the U25B run. >> I believe you are correct. The early purchases of U25B's had the Antennas, and the later purchases did not. Stuart Thayer >> Hi, Since I have 2 U25B's and only one set of the antenna's, are there any other significant external differences between the units delivered with and without the antenna's? Al S ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 14:13:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Dry Flow covered hopper... In a message dated 06/03/2000 12:28:07 AM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I guess after your presentation at the convention that you're Mr. PRR Covered hopper so I figured I'd check with you on whether these are right for Pennsy.... Eastern Car Works is doing 3500 Cubic Foot Dry Flo Covered Hoppers. I'm pretty sure that the Pennsy had some but can't remember for sure... If they did, what class were they? >> IIRC these cars or very similar to the ones used by PRR, but I believe they carried GACX or some such markings. A shot shows in one of either the color books or PP3. I'll defer to Rick on the absolute accuracy of the model. Al S ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 15:48:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Walt & folks, I don't know if anyone has mentioned it in this thread, but RMC had a pretty good article naned "Last of the Eastern Stock Cars" a number of years ago. The article has a nice history of PRR post-war stock trains running Chicago-East Coast points. I know I have the article somewhere in the house, and will try to dig it up. Hopefully I'm the only modeler/railfan on the list who can almost trip over particular mag issues for years, and then can't find it to save my last X29 when I want it. I'll look again ASAP anyway. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:04:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown Mark L wrote: ------------------ Hello, Anyone know if there was passenger service from PRR Johnstown south on the B&O line? ----------------------- Mark and giuys, Well, I dug through my B&O TT's as far back as 1949 and can't find any passenger service on that branch. The Pittsburgh Division employee TT list Johnstown as having the following B&O facilities:coaling station, engine h0use, turntable, water station and scale track. Eastbound trains include second class freight 88 and third class freights 80 and 84. Departure times, respectively, were 7:30 am, 11:30 am and 4:30 pm. Oddly, no westbound trains (from the main at Rockwood, PA) are shown. If it helps, the crews are order to porvide flag protection at the following street crossings: Hickory st, Poplar st, Strawberry Alley, Apple Alley, Main st, Coyer Alley, Locust st, Cover Good Alley and Railroad st., also Messenger St when watchman is not on duty . Stations shown are Johnstown, Osborn st, Ferndale, Krings, Walsall and Paint Creek in the immediate Johnstown area. It was 45.1 miles to the main at Rockwood, and it seems the Pennsy also interchanged with the B&O at that point. Hope this helps, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 13:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown The diagram in Triumph I which I mentioned yesterday is on page 235. The caption says it was updated to 1927. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints! http://photos.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 16:38:06 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] stock cars and other stuff Hello... Here are some references to some magazine articles for stuff mentioned here on the list. 1/93 Railroad Model Craftsmen "Last of the Eastern stock cars" also shows photos of class K-7a and K-8. 3/97 Railroad Model Craftsmen NYC stock car kitbash from a AHM car (for those wishing to model these cars) 2/70 Railroad Model Craftsmen Quick N-8 kitbash (since the MR article was already mentioned) Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:58:44 -0400 List: My 1936 B&O public timetable shows no passenger service on lines from Rockwood to Johnstown. They had two daily trains from Punxsutawney to Indiana connecting with a mixed at Juneau that ran to Sagamore;this was closest B&O passenger srevice to area. At that time many of their West Virginia services had been transferred to busses. Paul S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:50:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Archives I have been glancing through Beebe's book, "The Trains We Rode" and he credits G.E Payne and Craig Taylor of the PRR Archives for info on the PRR. Has anybody ever heard of either one ? Any details? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 21:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Models �� List, ��Hello, I don't often advertise my ebay offerings on this list but thought many modelers would be intrested in these items. http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=k4-5389&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25 Especially the box car. If not, thanks for your time anyway.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 18:59:44 -0700 Barry Peltier wrote: I don't know if anyone has mentioned it in this thread, but RMC had a pretty good article named "Last of the Eastern Stock Cars" a number of years ago. The article has a nice history of PRR post-war stock trains running Chicago-East Coast points. This excellent article by Richard Burg concentrates primarily on the development of NF-6 and the class K9 and K10 stockcars in order to capture increased livestock traffic in late 50s-early 60s. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much on the make-up of FW-8, the old "Man O'War". However, this is a highly recommended source, especially if you bought a 12-pack of the new Bowser kits and are wondering how to work them into your operating sessions. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2000 20:42:06 -0500 The 1930 Official Guide shows two trains a day into, and three trains a day out of Johnstown on the B&O. One train went all the way to Pittsburgh the others just to Rockwood. Since the stations were about 1/3 mile apart, there probably was no connecting service to the PRR. Regards, Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown > Mark L wrote: > ------------------ > Hello, Anyone know if there was passenger service from PRR Johnstown > south on the B&O line? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] Trailing truck on a J1? Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2000 22:45:45 EDT Hi group, Another question for all the PRR gurus. I have a brass J1 that I just purchased but the trailing truck looks as if it has been replaced. It has a booster attached. Is this the correct trailing truck for a J1? If not where can I get the correct one. The Box for the engine says Mfg. for the HO Train Company. PHiladelphia. Made in Japan. Thanks Sam ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:11:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Trailing truck on a J1? In a message dated 6/4/00 9:53:19 PM Central Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes: << It has a booster attached. Is this the correct trailing truck for a J1? >> The J1 (like the Q2) was built with a booster. I am not sure when but at certain point in time, both locomotives had the boosters removed during shopping. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:11:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion In a message dated 6/4/00 11:49:38 AM Mountain Daylight Time, AlbertSr@AOL.COM writes: << Since I have 2 U25B's and only one set of the antenna's, are there any other significant external differences between the units delivered with and without the antenna's? >> Al, It appears that the third order of U25B's, PRR 2529-2533, would be the ones that you would want to do with no antenna. They appear to be basically the same as the first two orders. That is, they have the one piece windshield. I am sure there are other minor differences between the first three orders of U25B's for the PRR, but I haven't researched them out yet. Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:38:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion Was it the U25B's or the frist batch of U25C's that the PRR got in return for the trackage that was inundated by the Kinzua dam project? I recall Pennsy Power II saying that the PRR loaded tham with every option available since they weren't paying for them. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Question Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:23:40 -0400 It was the first seven U25B's (2500-2506). See Tom Curtin's photo on p. 307 of "Pennsy Power II." Tom and I were aboard the unit at Conway Yard and it was indeed "loaded" with every "goody" then available, as were its six brothers. Terry Stuart www.forcomm.net/flagstop -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: Stuthayer@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, June 05, 2000 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion >Was it the U25B's or the frist batch of U25C's that the PRR got in return for the trackage that was inundated by the Kinzua dam project? I recall Pennsy Power II saying that the PRR loaded tham with every option available since they weren't paying for them. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:46:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Assembled Bowser Locos for Sale >I have several assembled Bowser locomotives for sale. All are used, all run nicely but have the Pittman motors and need to be remotored for DCC. I also have one Cary-boilered USRA L2 Mikado with a Mantua mechanism. It is ultra super-detailed with a ton of brass castings. It also has a Bowser USRA tender with more brass castings, including train phone antennas. The locos are: 2 K4s one superdetailed, one stock assembly 1 E6 kitbash per Model Railroader's article on MDC boiler / Penn Line Mechanism and MDC tender with Alloy Forms trucks. (pre Bowser G-5) 1 L1 Mikado with super-detailing 3 H9 2-8-0 Consolidations 2 detailed, one stock Painted and decaled but some "bruises" on finish due to long storage and many relocations. Also available are several Bowser Quick-disconnect drawbar conversion kits (only with loco sale, not seperately). Asking price $75.00 per loco. All guaranteed to run. They will need lubrication and minor cosmetic repairs but no basket cases. If interested, contact me offline at caseyj@igateway.com Regards, Nick kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:10:43 EDT Subject: RE: [PRR] NYC Stockcars on FW-8 Ben, Walt and all, I did write article on the AHM car utilizing it for the rebuilt NYC double deck car. The car is too wide, but the correct way to model the car would be to marriage the AHM sides to the Tichy ends and roof. This will give you a correct height car as well as a correct width car. The problem with narrowing the AHM car narrower makes the height to short... compromises, compromises. Walt was concerned on whether the car matched anything on the CB&Q, well if it did I have never seen a car like it, but hey someone might prove me wrong as the GN had similar single deck cars like the NYC single deck cars, but this car is a doulbe deck car. But the heart of the question is not the accuracy of the car but the likely hood of the car ending up in Pittsburgh, PA. Well, before deregulation the rates on a car from one location to another (east of the Mississippi) were all the same. So if a car were loaded in Indiana and had a destination to Pittsburgh, PA would have been the same. (to keep this all simple and in perspective) So if a Farmers CO-OP outside Indianopolis wanted to ship his piggies to Pittsburgh and his carrier was on the NYC, he could do so competitively as a CO-OP on the NKP. The routing would be different, but the final destination could be the PRR. So is it possible, absolutely. The interchange on the NYC might have been Indianopolis, IN or it could have been Pittsburgh, PA (from the P&LE)it just depends on how good the marketing agent was with the CO-OP. Just do it and beg for forgiveness... 3^) In a message dated Sun, 4 Jun "Benjamin Frank Hom" writes: << Walt Prusick wrote: Dang, Ben Hom beat me to the punch with his post concerning the NYC stockcar from the AHM 'tall' stockcar. A few years back either MR or MRC ran an article, which prompted me to do the 'follow the bouncing ball' upgrade.Very straight forward replace the grabs, convert to KD's and replace the trucks. The only semi-tricky portion of the upgrade concerned the adjustable second floor. Here the modeler shaved/trimmed the adjusting mechanism (located along one side, along the sill), but leaving the mounting brackets. Drill out these brackets, slip in a metal rod, and use those extra KD springs to represent the wrapped cable coming from the second floor. For my money, turned out nice and an easy project for even the faint of heart. I agree with Walt - it is a neat car, and one that's readily found on the secondhand market (though painted for every road except NYC, including Pennsy!). Two articles on the car have appeared in the recent past - one by Greg Martin in Mainline Modeler, and another in RMC (though I can't remember the author - I'm currently on the road and don't have my resources in front of me). Greg's conversion is the easier of the two - the one major problem of this AHM car is that the car was widened to fit the "universal" AHM underframe (it should be a foot narrower, since the cars were rebuilt from USRA SS boxcars). To correct this, the author of the RMC article cut the cars in half lengthwise on a table saw. Frankly, I'd take Greg's approach. But is a NYC stockcar 'acceptable' on FW-8? Would they be seen on Pennsy trackage on Herrs Island stockyards in Pittsburgh? I got the cars, but can I use them? (sigh). There's the heart of the question. Ben Hom Walt Prusick wrote: Dang, Ben Hom beat me to the punch with his post concerning the NYC stockcar from the AHM 'tall' stockcar. A few years back either MR or MRCran an article, which prompted me to do the 'follow the bouncing ball' upgrade. Very straight forward replace the grabs, convert to KD's and replace the trucks. The only semi-tricky portion of the upgradeconcerned the adjustable second floor. Here the modeler shaved/trimmed the adjusting mechanism(located along one side, along the sill), but leaving the mounting brackets. Drill out these brackets, slip in a metal rod, and use those extra KD springs to represent the wrapped cable coming from the second floor. For my money, turned out nice and an easy project for even the faint of heart. I agree with Walt - it is a neat car, and one that's readily found on the secondhand market (though painted for every roadexcept NYC, including Pennsy!). Two articles on the car have appear! ed in the recent past - one by Greg Martin in Mainline Modeler, and another in RMC (though I can't remember the author - I'm currently on the road and don't have my resources in front of me). Greg's conversion is the easier of the two - the one major problem of this AHM car is that the car was widened to fit the "universal" AHM underframe (it should be a foot narrower, since the cars were rebuilt from USRA SS boxcars). To correct this, the author of the RMC article cut the cars in half lengthwise on a table saw. Frankly, I'd take Greg's approach. But isa NYC stockcar 'acceptable' on FW-8? Would they be seen on Pennsy trackage on Herrs Island stockyards in Pittsburgh? I got the cars, but can I use them? (sigh). There's the heart of the question. Ben Hom >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 15:18:26 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]Stockcars on FW-8 The original issue on this thread was the lack of PRR stock cars of the early 50s and earlier. In particular the K7 and K8. I have noticed that Jerry Britton has news posted of Bethlehem doing a K8 at some unspecified time. I'm skeptical because Bethlehem has never done a freight car. At the Springfield show last Feb, Tichy was soliciting ideas for a new car. I suggested to him a K7 or K8. I keep holding out hope for Westerfield or Sunshine to get interested although a Tichy car at $10-$15 would be the ideal for a fleet. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Johnson" Subject: [PRR] Middle Division Trip Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:09:13 -0500 I am leaving for PRR country this weekend and have two days (Saturday & Sunday) to see the former PRR middle Division from Lewistown to Pittsburgh. I have driven from Altoona to Mt. Union before, but I never had time for railfanning. Since I am modeling Pittsburgh steel, I will be spending a third day (Monday) in the Mon Valley area. I KNOW some of you probably have suggestions for what to see and where to see it. Also has anyone stayed at either "The Station Inn" in Cresson or "The Fallston Flagstop" in Fallston. Thanks in advance for your help. Greg Johnson, Friendswood, TX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:32:02 -0400 From: Albert Alecknavage II Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Trip Greg Johnson wrote: > > I am leaving for PRR country this weekend and have two days (Saturday & > Sunday) to see the former PRR middle Division from Lewistown to Pittsburgh. > I have driven from Altoona to Mt. Union before, but I never had time for > railfanning. Since I am modeling Pittsburgh steel, I will be spending a > third day (Monday) in the Mon Valley area. > > I KNOW some of you probably have suggestions for what to see and where to > see it. Also has anyone stayed at either "The Station Inn" in Cresson or > "The Fallston Flagstop" in Fallston. > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > Greg Johnson, > Friendswood, TX Greg, Yep, there's a lot to see. Places on the "west slope" I'd recommend: the west portals of the two remaining active tunnels in Gallitzin; the Route 53 overpass east of Cresson; the helper servicing facility in Cresson; the overgrade local bridge in Lilly; the ground-level dirt road west of that bridge that leads to a curve with a signal bridge spanning the main; the famed "Iron Bridge" in Cassandra. In Altoona itself, there is (from west to east): 17th St. bridge (a busy one; be careful), just east of "ALTO" Tower--great view west...a footbridge crossing the mains at the Amtrak station, at 12th St....a footbridge (mesh deck, use care if you dislike heights) spanning the entire yard near where "WORKS" inter- locking once was, at 4th St....the local road bridge with sidewalk, across the yard at "ROSE" interlocking (easternmost helper cutoff point), at 4th Street. Those should be all of the best overgrade views in Altoona. There is so much to see that several very detailed train watcher's guides have been written about the West Slope and the Middle Division. "Railpace Newsmagazine", the northeast's premier railfan mag, has the best of the "go here, turn left" articles on how to access photogenic locations. For the Middle Division, the issues in question are December, 1991; January & February, 1992. A special Altoona/Horseshoe Curve guide is is May, 1992. West Slope: I don't recall exactly, but 3 issues at the end of 1995/start of 1996 covered it. I'll try to find out which ones. I highly recommend using these to make the most of your time along the PRR. If you are determined, go to www.railpub.com. This site sells back issues of railfan mags, and is one of the few reliable sources of old "Railpace" issues. (Those guides are very actively sought after!) You may be able to arrange for fast shipping. If you have more questions, I'll try to answer them, or point you towards someone with an answer better than mine. Albert Alecknavage II ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 19:57:20 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion Hello list, I remember reading in one of the Pennsy Diesel Years books from Morning Sun that the PRR got 7 fully loaded U25B diesels because of the Kinzua Dam project. Doug NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Was it the U25B's or the frist batch of U25C's that the PRR got in return for the trackage that was inundated by the Kinzua dam project? I recall Pennsy Power II saying that the PRR loaded tham with every option available since they weren't paying for them. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:03:30 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] N Scale PRR X32 in July MR Hello list, MR reviewed Micro Trains' N scale X32b on page 24 of the July issue. It appears to be very well done. I did email MR about one minor issue; they identified the trucks as 2DF8s (which had two coil springs per side) when they appear to be closer to 2DF12s (one coil spring and one elliptical spring per side). Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 21:23:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion In a message dated 6/5/00 8:38:46 AM Mountain Daylight Time, NDBPRR writes: << Was it the U25B's or the frist batch of U25C's that the PRR got in return for the trackage that was inundated by the Kinzua dam project? I recall Pennsy Power II saying that the PRR loaded tham with every option available since they weren't paying for them. >> I don't know the answer to that one unfortunately. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:03:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Trip Regarding your interest in Station Inn at Cresson, it appears to be quite the popular place. Have not stayed there as I am a local area resident. Have heard nothing but good comments about it. Also have heard only good comments about Fallston Flagstop and hope to visit there this summer. For yours, and the list information, there are new facilities coming on line in Gallitzin Borough. A new B&B ADJACENT to the tunnel portal, known as the T unnel Inn. One of the great feature is a balcony that overlooks the railroad tunnels. Tunnel Inn is operated by Mike and Helen Kraynyak as announced in our local newspaper on Sunday, June 4th. Opening is mid-June. The Tunnel Inn is the renovated and restored former Gallitzin Borough Building. One-half block away from Tunnel Inn is the Iron Horse Cafe for good food and beverage in an atmosphere of being surrounded by PRR and town memorabilia. As an example, all table tops have recessed surfaces with plexiglas covers which protect old newspaper clippings, photographs and advertisements displayed underneath. "Reading" the table tops or the memorabilia on the walls provides particular enjoyment. I must sound like I have a vested interest; not so. But local history and tourism go hand in hand and we like to promote quality experiences for those who visit the region. David Seidel Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: RE: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:14:24 -0400 Listers: According to Pennsy Power II it was the first 7 U25Bs that were paid for by the Kinzua Dam project, 2500-06 [later PRR/PC 2600-2606 built in 1962. Paul S. -----Original Message----- From: Stuthayer@aol.com [SMTP:Stuthayer@aol.com] Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 9:23 PM To: NDBPRR@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PM-list] Re: [PRR] Diesel Qustion In a message dated 6/5/00 8:38:46 AM Mountain Daylight Time, NDBPRR writes: << Was it the U25B's or the frist batch of U25C's that the PRR got in return for the trackage that was inundated by the Kinzua dam project? I recall Pennsy Power II saying that the PRR loaded tham with every option available since they weren't paying for them. >> I don't know the answer to that one unfortunately. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 23:42:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and B&O in Johnstown In a message dated 00-06-04 16:13:19 EDT, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Well, I dug through my B&O TT's as far back as 1949 and can't find any passenger service on that branch. >> I had to go all the way back to the 1930 Official Guide, which showed two weekday B&O round trips Rockwood-Johnstown. By 1932 they were gone, and didn't even come back for World War II. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trailing truck on a J1? Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 07:00:12 EDT Nick & Group, I am almost positive that mine has been replaced. it is painted Black the rest of the engine is still brass. It also hits the under carriage and shorts out the engine on curves. 22" Radius I can tell that some one has been grinding on the booster that is why i hve asked. do you know where I could find a replacement? Would the one Bowser has for a Challenger work or rather be the right replacement? Thanks Sam >From: Nick Kulp >To: "Sam Vastano" >Subject: Re: [PRR] Trailing truck on a J1? >Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:43:55 -0400 > >Sam, > >I have the same locomtive only by AHM (GEM) and yes it does have a booster. >The J1 was a C&O design and was complete with booster. The PRR modified the >smokebox and pilot to give it the "family" look but a booster was >appropriate. The HO Train Company put out a J1 with hidden sand pipes and >is very collectible. AHM put out the J1 with exposed sand pipes very much >like the later Westside Models J1a. All three are good runners. > >Regards, >Nick Kulp > >At 10:45 PM 6/4/00 EDT, you wrote: > >Hi group, > > > >Another question for all the PRR gurus. I have a brass J1 that I just > >purchased but the trailing truck looks as if it has been replaced. It has >a > >booster attached. Is this the correct trailing truck for a J1? If not >where > >can I get the correct one. The Box for the engine says Mfg. for the HO >Train > >Company. PHiladelphia. Made in Japan. > > > >Thanks > > > >Sam > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 08:18:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Former PRR/CR York Haven Line From: Jerry Britton About two weeks ago I reported activity on the former PRR/CR York Haven line. I reported new ties and rail being set on the RoW between Goldsboro and Wago Junction. It appeared to be for new track construction, rather than replacement. This morning as I commuted through York Haven, the grade crossing is closed, the road is ripped up, and they are laying a THIRD TRACK through York Haven, confirming my suspicion. Question is, what is the purpose of this additional track? In the PRR days, this was a four track line. At the west end, the two Northern Central tracks rose to LEMO in Lemoyne. Are they reactivating the high line into Enola? Or is this just a longer lead for trains going to/coming from the Northern Central Branch to York to the east? There isn't enough traffic -- at this point anyway -- to warrant a passing siding. Inquiring railfans want to know! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:23:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR Wire Trains (Attn: Al Buchan!) From: Jerry Britton As many of you know/remember, I am modeling Harrisburg circa 1954. In Sweetland's new book, there is a photo of the "Harrisburg wire train" at Columbia, Pa., in the early 1960's. It consists of a switcher, cable car, tower car, and a gondola. The switcher and tower car are readily or soon available in HO scale. Questions to everyone, especially to Al Buchan, are: 1. How much would a circa 1954 wire train out of Harrisburg differed in consist? 2. Any guess as to what class of gondola this might have been? Any special paint scheme? 3. The cable car...any more info? Car number? Were there more than one of this type in the fleet? It closely resembles the Clearance Car, recently done in brass by Rail Works. It's not even close to the Westerfield XL camp car Wire Car. Has anyone ever made this wire car in HO? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:56:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] K29 #3395 Folks, I was reading the August,56, Trains article on the K4, by Fred Westing. He makes an account of the solitary engine in the X29 class, Number 3395. Seems this loco was something of a test case, from Alco, to see what could be done with a pacific type for Pennsy's needs. The author goes on to give a brief rundown of 3395's service career, which seems to have been creditable enough. Eventualy she was retired and scrapped without fanfare. I was wondering if anyone knows how long this engine lasted in service and where it was used besides the Pittsburgh Division, if anywhere? And what did it look like, as regards what we think of when speaking of PRR engines? (It was built in Nov, 1911, and had a Crawford Stoker, definitely a non-Pennsy option for that era!) Thanks folks, for any info. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 10:02:05 -0500 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Please turn off HTML format Hey guys and gals! Pls check your browsers and set them to PLAIN TEXT only, if you see junk like this at the end of your messages, you have HTML turned on: > photos you truly see what a magnificent locomotive the T-1 = > was. >
Bob Holden
It is easy to switch off, setting is in the PREFERENCE (Netscape or IE), will save some bandwidth and space. Thanks John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 Barry, To see a photo of this K29 locomotive, go to my 2nd webpage listed below. There you will see K29 at Kittaning Point (Horseshoe Curve). It was the K29 not the K2 and K3 that the K4 was designed from. The loco was built in 1911 and scrapped in 1929. It had a radial stay firebox. If not for the K29 the K4 may not have been. At that period of time Passenger Cars were being built heavier and heavier, thus the need for a more powerful loco than the K2-K3 series. You can probably consider the K29 as the test bed for the K4. Hope this helps a little. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:16:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 Oops, meant K29 class loco, not X29! Must have box cars on the brain this morning. BP ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:30:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 In a message dated 6/6/00 10:02:59 AM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << was wondering if anyone knows how long this engine lasted in service and where it was used besides the Pittsburgh Division, if anywhere? And what did it look like, as regards what we think of when speaking of PRR engines? (It was built in Nov, 1911, and had a Crawford Stoker, definitely a non-Pennsy option for that era!) >> Pennsy Power !, page 144 text, 146 pictures, describes the engine. Says it was the real prototype for the K4 and a successful demonstrator. Also says it spent most of its life on the Pittsburgh division and was gone by the 1929 roster listing. IMHO, it is a beautiful locomotive in appearance. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:39:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 Gary, Thanks for the info. 1929 scrap date, eh? I never would have figured it so early, but I imagine the Pennsy didn't want any oddball, one-of-kind engines around just about the time of the Big Crash on Wall Street. Certainly seems like it paid it's way though, adding so much to the K4 developement. Thanks again, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Former PRR/CR York Haven Line Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:43:44 -0400 I reported new ties and rail being set on the RoW between Goldsboro and Wago Junction. It appeared to be for new track construction, rather than replacement. This morning as I commuted through York Haven, the grade crossing is closed, the road is ripped up, and they are laying a THIRD TRACK through York Haven, confirming my suspicion. Question is, what is the purpose of this additional track? Jerry/Lists: I am one of those rail fans who wants to know. I have some questions about this development. First, being not too familiar with the area, I looked on a Yahoo map to pin-point the localities of Jerry's reports. If the trackwork is between Wago and Goldsboro, could NS be building a passing or staging siding for the immediate use of Port Road traffic? Second, where does the fourth track into Enola, the Northern Central line, begin/end? In other words, is there a fourth track up into Enola? I was under the impression that this track was removed. Is this track construction going to lead into Enola, or the ex-Reading line? Some time back there was talk of NS building a connecting track from their main coming up from the south on the ex-Reading and getting them into Enola directly from the east end of the yard. I realize this would be difficult to build in a straight forward manner, with the lay of the lines around LEMO, but would they be considering a connector requiring a run-around and a far reaching goal to build the plant to facilitate further plant construction east -- A&S line? I just realized this is a bit far fetched... what would be their rational? Where is the traffic heading? Have I raised more questions then deem necessary... NS and their strategic plan for the Harrisburg area seems always a moving target. I just want to know. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 Barry, List, I hope you have the book "The Many Faces of the K4". This is the book you need to have to learn more than you would ever want to know about the K4. I just took a brief look and there is plenty on the development of the K4. Including the history of the K29. This author states the K29 spent its entire 18 year lifespan on the Pittsburgh Div, including work as helper on the hill, Anyway, excellent reading on the K2 K3 K28 K29 and lets not forget the E6, which was also used in the design of the K4. The book is probably out of print but seek one out!..Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:18:16 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Archives NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > I have been glancing through Beebe's book, "The Trains We Rode" and he > credits G.E Payne and Craig Taylor of the PRR Archives for info on the PRR. > Has anybody ever heard of either one ? Greetings to NDP and the List! George Payne was a publicity manager for the PRR in the late 1950s-60s era. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Psalm 119:105 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 12:49:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Former PRR/CR York Haven Line From: Jerry Britton On 6/6/00 11:43 AM, Conan Evans (cevans@onlinesecurities.net) wrote: > First, being not too familiar with the area, I looked on a Yahoo map to > pin-point the localities of Jerry's reports. If the trackwork is between > Wago and Goldsboro, could NS be building a passing or staging siding for the > immediate use of Port Road traffic? Doubt. There's little traffic now, unless they plan to really build it up. > > Second, where does the fourth track into Enola, the Northern Central line, > begin/end? In other words, is there a fourth track up into Enola? I was > under the impression that this track was removed. Is this track > construction going to lead into Enola, or the ex-Reading line? Tracks 3 &4 were the NCR tracks which rose out of New Cumberland to LEMO then down to rejoin 1 & 2 just east of Enola. Both 3 & 4 were removed some time ago. They are essentially putting track 3 back in, but I don't know if it extends as far west as New Cumberland. If it does, I'm not sure where it will go at that point. Would have to take the high route. > > Some time back there was talk of NS building a connecting track from their > main coming up from the south on the ex-Reading and getting them into Enola > directly from the east end of the yard. I realize this would be difficult > to build in a straight forward manner, with the lay of the lines around > LEMO, but would they be considering a connector requiring a run-around and a > far reaching goal to build the plant to facilitate further plant > construction east -- A&S line? I just realized this is a bit far fetched... > what would be their rational? Where is the traffic heading? Have I raised > more questions then deem necessary... NS and their strategic plan for the > Harrisburg area seems always a moving target. > The Reading line seems to be a very sturdy line. I did ponder briefly the NS reacquiring the Frederick Branch from the Ma & Pa and routing traffic through York to Wago to Enola. However, that would be a lot of rebuilding. I doubt it is related. The Ma & Pa controls the former PRR Frederick Branch and the former PRR Northern Central Branch through and south of York. NS runs from York to Enola. You can frequently see Ma & Pa / YorkRail power in Enola. Perhaps they are building a dedicated Enola to Wago track so this traffic can run as needed without interfering with A & S Branch traffic? The A & S would have two tracks, the Ma & Pa would have one bi-directional track. Just guessing. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:34:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] DON'T FORGET THE "28's" Don't forget: Class J-28 - two experimental 2-6-2 "Prarie" types built by Alco -1906 Engine numbers 2761 (P Co.) and 7453 (Lines West) Design apparently lost out to Pacific Type Class K-28, Alco 4-6-2: 1907 Engine number 7067 precursor to the K-2 Type All had radial stay fireboxes, and were gone by 1929. Alco seemed to get a lot of experimental contract from the PRR, but the big orders usually went to the Home Shops or to on line customer/builder Baldwin Two exceptions: Class B-28, USRA design 0-6-0: 30 engines built by Alco 1918-1919 Radial stay firebox; Baker valve gear Class B-29, 0-6-0 Built by Lima and Alco, 1903-1913, Radial stay firebox Stephenson valve gear Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:44:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: [PRR] Whistle Signals I dont remember if someone on this list was asking about Whistle Signals or where it was from.... http://www.spikesys.com/Trains/whistle.html Is a good reference for whistle signals and their meanings Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator The Blue Moon Online System - www.bluemoon.net alcoman@bluemoon.net The Railfan Network - www.Railfan.net MoonMud - telnet mud.bluemoon.net 4000 ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server - irc.bluemoon.net 6667 Homepage - alcoman.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Enola Branch Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:14:34 -0400 Just a thought as to the question of the what the new (re-installed) third track can be for. NS is taking a lot of heat from the communities along the Harrisburg line. They (the communities) are doing the noise thing, the speed thing and the blocking the crossing thing. Now for the guess part. What line is grade crossing free, high speed and is of low gentle grades? A few months back NS went investigating the Low Grade, and took it out of the rails to trails program. Cos President and CBW Cos Communications, Inc. Home of the Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road Home Page Railroad Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RGortowski@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:29:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] Chicago Union Station Engine Facility I was told that the road engines used to pull the Blue Ribbon trains out of CUS were serviced on the grounds in a large brick building just past the St. Charles airline. It is supposed to be right by the car washer. Can anyone fill in the gaps or point me to some information on this facility? Thanks, Rich Gortowski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:06:22 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale PRR X32 in July MR In a word, yes. Sorry for any confusion. Doug VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/5/00 8:56:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: > > << 2DF12s (one coil spring and one elliptical spring per side). >> > > Is this the same truck as the X-31 series with a coil and a "leaf" ? > > Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 19:20:52 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 Barry, list, The K29 was a bit heavier than the early K4s engines (317,000 pounds, thereabout, versus 305,000 pounds for an early hand fired K4s). She had only 67 square feet of grate area (just under 70 for a K4s), she had tubes almost 22 feet long (19 feet long for a K4s), no combustion chamber (36" for a K4s), and a bit less tractive effort (43,375 vs 44460, on account of slightly lower boiler pressure). The longer tubes, smaller grate area, and absense of a combustion chamber made her a bit short on steam and hard to fire compared to the K4s. The K29 was born saturated, but she was superheated in August 1913. PRR turned to combustion chambers earlier than the rest of the country; the E6 of 1910 was, I believe, the first PRR engine to have one in the 20th century. Early super power steam, including the A-1 Berkshires and J1 Hudsons on the B&A and NYC and the S1 Berkshires on the Erie lacked them. Apparently combustion chambers leaked. I wonder how PRR got around this problem, or if they just decided the increase in steaming capacity was worth the increase in maintenance? The E6s also contributed valuable data to what became the K4s. Alco's K29, while the prototype of the K4s, seems to get less of the credit than the E6s does; for a long time the K4s was described as a stretched E6s. Then again, PRR was never overly fond of Alco. BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > I was reading the August,56, Trains article on the K4, by Fred Westing. He makes an account of the solitary engine in the X29 class, Number 3395. Seems this loco was something of a test case, from Alco, to see what could be done with a pacific type for Pennsy's needs. The author goes on to give a brief rundown of 3395's service career, which seems to have been creditable enough. Eventualy she was retired and scrapped without fanfare. > I was wondering if anyone knows how long this engine lasted in service and where it was used besides the Pittsburgh Division, if anywhere? And what did it look like, as regards what we think of when speaking of PRR engines? (It was built in Nov, 1911, and had a Crawford Stoker, definitely a non-Pennsy option for that era!) > Thanks folks, for any info. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:22:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Branch From: Jerry Britton On 6/6/00 6:14 PM, Wayne S. Betty at (cos@mycyberlink.net) wrote: > Just a thought as to the question of the what the new (re-installed) third > track can be for. > NS is taking a lot of heat from the communities along the Harrisburg line. > They (the communities) are > doing the noise thing, the speed thing and the blocking the crossing thing. > Now for the guess part. > What line is grade crossing free, high speed and is of low gentle grades? > A few months back NS went investigating the Low Grade, and took it out of > the rails to trails program. > True, that kinda does tie into the rumors many months back about the Martic Forge Bridge being put back into service. I hope you're right. I'd love to see all of this happen. The third track would likely be a dedicated track from Enola to Wago just to service the York connection without interfering with the A & S mains. I'm busy Saturday -- thing called an anniversary -- but on Sunday I'm going to try to snoop around New Cumberland and Lemoyne to see if there are similar signs of construction. As it stands, I can account for third track construction from Wago to Goldsboro...about five miles. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] How Black is Black? Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:24:48 -0400 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] How Black is Black? From: "andrew harmantas" Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:14:26 EDT Hi Andrew: I am sitting here going through PRR-Talk recovering from a triple bypass and valve replacement. I am working my way backwards to 5/16/00. I'm still under the haze of anesthetic (I still can't see straight), but haven't taken the pain pills for several day, and wondering am I really reading this or am I still "out like a mackerel on the operating table" to quote David Letterman. Remember, Pennsy men would refer to a freshly out shopped unites as being "a fresh coat of varnish" which tells you that a! > repainted unit was not likely repainted but more often re-varnished. >Once the varnish was re-applied to a cleaned locomotive that had been wiped >with "hot water,oil soap and kerosene" the orginal color could be >established with a coat of varnish. The term "Varnish" was originally applied to to the finish on passenger cars which were given a color coat and then a clear coat of varnish, Incidentally auto industry reinvented this technique recently and all the new cars have been painted this way for several years. However based on this fact, I can't refute what term Pennsy men used when referring to freshly out shopped units. However if you are talking about repainted motive power, The paints used were, going backwards in time, polyurethanes, acrylics, alkyds, oil based redimix, and before that onsite mixed oil based. I can't imagine that they were given a coat of varnish during my lifetime. (b.7/13/32) If I had been selling paints varnishes to the PRR, I would have never recommended applying a coat of varnish, paint or any other organic coating over a cleaned that had been wiped with "hot water, oil soap and kerosene". The "varnish or paint won't stick!That type of substrate is a paint salesman worst nightmare. _______________________________________ In fact, on a railfan trip in 1953 to Enola out of D.C., E8's were coupled on at Harrisburg for the ride across the Bridge and over to Enola. While at Harrisburg, I got a real close look at the diesels. They had just been varnished, perhaps the day before. The surface was still a bit tacky. I could see the dark red paint with variations in color, meaning it had been on there a while and had oxidized in some areas, then there were tell-tale specks of insects, grime, and dents from small stones tossed by passing trains at high speed, and an obvious effort to get rid of most of this through a pressure washer, followed by a coat of clear varnish. I even remember the smell of it--sort of like spar varnish--the kind that never really dries. For the record, spar varnish does dry. I guess is that after washing in the hot water, oil soap and kerosene, the locomotive was sprayed with a wax . These waxes could be applied as hot solvent borne spray or as emulsions. What you could have smelled was the solvents used in the wax. In many cases the same solvents are used for waxes and paints and varnishes. They still do this in car washes today. I think the motorist would object to his car exuding an odor after the car wash. Andrew Harmantas, loading up the car even now for the day-long drive to Strasburg for RR artists Weekend at the RR musuem. See you there. ________________________________________________________________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: Fw: [PRR] How Black is Black? Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 22:34:20 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Izzo To: PRR-Talk Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 10:24 PM Subject: [PRR] How Black is Black? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] How Black is Black? > From: "andrew harmantas" > Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:14:26 EDT > > Hi Andrew: > > I am sitting here going through PRR-Talk recovering from a triple bypass and > valve replacement. I am working my way backwards to 5/16/00. I'm still > under the haze of anesthetic (I still can't see straight), but haven't taken > the pain pills for several day, and wondering am I really reading this or am > I still "out like a mackerel on the operating table" to quote David > Letterman. > > Remember, Pennsy men would refer to a freshly out shopped unites as being "a > fresh coat of varnish" which tells you that a! > > repainted unit was not likely repainted but more often re-varnished. > >Once the varnish was re-applied to a cleaned locomotive that had been wiped > >with "hot water,oil soap and kerosene" the orginal color could be > >established with a coat of varnish. > > > The term "Varnish" was originally applied to to the finish on passenger cars > which were given a color coat and then a clear coat of varnish, > Incidentally auto industry reinvented this technique recently and all the > new cars have been painted this way for several years. However based on > this fact, I can't refute what term Pennsy men used when referring to > freshly out shopped units. However if you are talking about repainted > motive power, The paints used were, going backwards in time, polyurethanes, > acrylics, alkyds, oil based redimix, and before that onsite mixed oil based. > I can't imagine that they were given a coat of varnish during my lifetime. > (b.7/13/32) > > If I had been selling paints varnishes to the PRR, I would have never > recommended applying a coat of varnish, paint or any other organic coating > over a cleaned that had been wiped with "hot water, oil soap and kerosene". > The "varnish or paint won't stick!That type of substrate is a paint salesman > worst nightmare. > > _______________________________________ > In fact, on a railfan trip in 1953 to Enola out of D.C., E8's were coupled > on at Harrisburg for the ride across the Bridge and over to Enola. While at > Harrisburg, I got a real close look at the diesels. They had just been > varnished, perhaps the day before. The surface was still a bit tacky. I > could see the dark red paint with variations in color, meaning it had been > on there a while and had oxidized in some areas, then there were tell-tale > specks of insects, grime, and dents from small stones tossed by passing > trains at high speed, and an obvious effort to get rid of most of this > through a pressure washer, followed by a coat of clear varnish. I even > remember the smell of it--sort of like spar varnish--the kind that never > really dries. > > For the record, spar varnish does dry. > > I guess is that after washing in the hot water, oil soap and kerosene, the > locomotive was sprayed with a wax . These waxes could be applied as hot > solvent borne spray or as emulsions. What you could have smelled was the > solvents used in the wax. In many cases the same solvents are used for > waxes and paints and varnishes. They still do this in car washes today. I > think the motorist would object to his car exuding an odor after the car > wash. > Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint Consultant PRRT&HS #832 ________________________________________________________________________ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:48:35 -0700 Doug and all, It's not that the PRR wasn't overly fond of Alco, but they tended to favor builders on-line...and there existed an "interlocking" board of directors between Baldwin and the PRR (read the same people sat on both boards). Today that would be termed a conflict of interest. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: BPX29@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] K29 #3395 >Barry, list, > >The K29 was a bit heavier than the early K4s engines (317,000 pounds, thereabout, versus 305,000 pounds for an early hand fired K4s). She had only 67 square feet of grate area (just under 70 for a K4s), she had tubes almost 22 feet long (19 feet long for a K4s), no combustion chamber (36" for a K4s), and a bit less tractive effort (43,375 vs 44460, on account of slightly lower boiler pressure). > >The longer tubes, smaller grate area, and absense of a combustion chamber made her a bit short on steam and hard to fire compared to the K4s. The K29 was born saturated, but she was superheated in August 1913. > >PRR turned to combustion chambers earlier than the rest of the country; the E6 of 1910 was, I believe, the first PRR engine to have one in the 20th century. Early super power steam, including the A-1 Berkshires and J1 Hudsons on the B&A and NYC and the S1 Berkshires on the Erie lacked them. Apparently combustion chambers leaked. I wonder how PRR got around this problem, or if they just decided the increase in steaming capacity was >worth the increase in maintenance? > >The E6s also contributed valuable data to what became the K4s. Alco's K29, while the prototype of the K4s, seems to get less of the credit than the E6s does; for a long time the K4s was described as a stretched E6s. Then again, PRR was never overly fond of Alco. > >BPX29@aol.com wrote: > >> Folks, >> I was reading the August,56, Trains article on the K4, by Fred Westing. He makes an account of the solitary engine in the X29 class, Number 3395. Seems this loco was something of a test case, from Alco, to see what could be done with a pacific type for Pennsy's needs. The author goes on to give a brief rundown of 3395's service career, which seems to have been creditable enough. Eventualy she was retired and scrapped without fanfare. >> I was wondering if anyone knows how long this engine lasted in service and where it was used besides the Pittsburgh Division, if anywhere? And what did it look like, as regards what we think of when speaking of PRR engines? (It was built in Nov, 1911, and had a Crawford Stoker, definitely a non-Pennsy option for that era!) >> Thanks folks, for any info. >> Regards, >> Barry Peltier >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:50:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Alco's on the PRR The PRR may not have been fond of Alco but if you count the models Alco is the clear winner for total number of models on the PRR. You can count B units as a separate model or not it makes no difference. Alco clearly provided more models tha any other provider. Quantities however are a far different matter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:46:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco's on the PRR On Wed, 7 Jun 2000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > The PRR may not have been fond of Alco but if you count the models Alco > is the clear winner for total number of models on the PRR. You can count > B units as a separate model or not it makes no difference. Alco clearly > provided more models tha any other provider. Quantities however are a > far different matter. "Clear" I count 21 models of Alco, 20 of EMD. Namely: Alco: PA1/PB1 FA1/FB1 FA2/FB2 RS-1 RS-2 RS-3 RS-11 RS-27 (DL640) RSD-5 RSD-12 RSD-7 RSD-15 C-424 C-425 C-628 C-630 S-1 S-2 S-3 S-4 T-6 (22 if you count the C-636s ordered but not delivered until PC) EMD: SW NW2 SW1 SW7 SW900 SW1200 E7A/B E8A FP7 F3A/B F7A/B GP7 GP9 GP30 GP35 SD7 SD9 SD35 SD40 SD45 (21 if you count the F5 as separate, which I won't) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco's on the PRR Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 06:52:30 -0700 There are probably many reasons for this...Pennsy's hunger for anything diesel, unknown track records in the early days, inability to acquire sufficent quantities of more reliable locomotives and so forth... But, I (and I believe the original poster) was refering to steam builders, and not diesel. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: billd@gci-net.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 5:57 AM Subject: [PRR] Alco's on the PRR >The PRR may not have been fond of Alco but if you count the models Alco is the clear winner for total number of models on the PRR. You can count B units as a separate model or not it makes no difference. Alco clearly provided more models tha any other provider. Quantities however are a far different matter. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:40:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco's on the PRR In a message dated 6/7/00 9:03:06 AM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << There are probably many reasons for this...Pennsy's hunger for anything diesel, unknown track records in the early days, inability to acquire sufficent quantities of more reliable locomotives and so forth... >> Add to that a desire by most purchasing departments (at least in those days) to keep competition going by spreading the business around a little. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:45:42 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Wire Trains (Attn: Al Buchan!) Jerry asked: > >1. How much would a circa 1954 wire train out of Harrisburg differed in >consist? >2. Any guess as to what class of gondola this might have been? Any special >paint scheme? The wire train you refer to is what I call a "late" wire train (ie, when the XL class cars were phased out) The Harrisburg train most likely kept its XL cars through 1954, and they may have been either the old grey scheme or the new yellow scheme. This is good news as you should be able to model the entire wire train from available kits. A typical wire train consist (from videos, photos and Al Buchan) was: one XL riding car (w/cupola and pantograph) - not currently available as a model (kitbash Westerfield by adding cupola and pantograph) one XL tool and material car (Westerfield) one or two FM or FGRA tower cars (FM tower car from Railworks) one GR or GRA gondola wire/cable stroage car (in later years this might be a G32B) (I beleive this car is available from several sources including MOW from Westerfield) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:06:45 -0400 From: 442 <442@mail.pa.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Branch Hi, A few months ago I posted a note concerning what a government official said concerning the HBG line "some part of the HBG Line was going to be singled tracked". He indicated that this was a plan of NS not CR (meaning this is post merger). If this was to occur NS could operate the HBG Line in one direction, re-open the A&S Br. then make a connection at Thorn to the old P&T Br. to Phila. and NY and points north and run this in the opposite direction. Time will tell if this rumor holds H2O. I was laughed at for posting the rumor, so before anyone laughs take a look at your maps. The above could work- maybe not exactly smooth BUT is NS smoothly operating things today? Could NS be building this to run roadrailers/intermodal from Rutherford west to Lemoyne down to a connection either at Cork or Park to run to NYC/northern NJ? Making better time with higher speeds on NEC? Time will tell. Just a thought, 442 At 18:14 6/6/00 -0400, you wrote: >Just a thought as to the question of the what the new (re-installed) third >track can be for. >NS is taking a lot of heat from the communities along the Harrisburg line. >They (the communities) are >doing the noise thing, the speed thing and the blocking the crossing thing. >Now for the guess part. >What line is grade crossing free, high speed and is of low gentle grades? >A few months back NS went investigating the Low Grade, and took it out of >the rails to trails program. > >Cos >President and CBW Cos Communications, Inc. >Home of the Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road >Home Page > >Railroad Pages > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Wire Trains (Attn: Al Buchan!) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:03:11 -0400 This sounds just too easy and too kewl to pass up. Gotta do one!! Lew Matt -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Wire Trains (Attn: Al Buchan!) >Jerry asked: >> >>1. How much would a circa 1954 wire train out of Harrisburg differed in >>consist? >>2. Any guess as to what class of gondola this might have been? Any special >>paint scheme? > >The wire train you refer to is what I call a "late" wire train (ie, when >the XL class cars were phased out) The Harrisburg train most likely kept >its XL cars through 1954, and they may have been either the old grey scheme >or the new yellow scheme. This is good news as you should be able to model >the entire wire train from available kits. > >A typical wire train consist (from videos, photos and Al Buchan) was: >one XL riding car (w/cupola and pantograph) - not currently available as a >model (kitbash Westerfield by adding cupola and pantograph) >one XL tool and material car (Westerfield) >one or two FM or FGRA tower cars (FM tower car from Railworks) >one GR or GRA gondola wire/cable stroage car (in later years this might be >a G32B) (I beleive this car is available from several sources including MOW >from Westerfield) > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:25:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Photos Online From: Jerry Britton I have added additional photos to the web sites for two of our subscribers layouts... I have added more photos from the first public op session at Larry Reynolds' place back in March... And I have added several construction photos from the expansion of Ken McCorry's layout, also taken in March. Ken devised a wonderful multi-track swing gate. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ For those who may be interested but are not on my Eastern Region's private mailing list (PRR-ER), I have also posted construction photos on my layout's site. The wall studding is done and electrical work will commence shortly. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Wire Trains Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:55:03 -0400 Bruce Smith wrote: > A typical wire train consist (from videos, photos and Al Buchan) was Thanks for the information, including the tips on modeling. This makes another interesting train to add to the list to model. At least its short enough to do the complete trian. Just one question left. What would be typical motive power for such a wire train? Thanks, Bruce Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:17:04 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Forthcoming Mantua PRR 060 and Atlas HO GP38 Hello list, I was just surfing Walthers' web site, and Mantua has announced a PRR 060 tank engine. This is probably based on their Little Six (zinc boiler, belpaire firebox, no known prototype). I have a Little Six, and what it lacks in faithfulness to (any) prototype, it makes up for in sentimental appeal and pulling power. Mine has the Mantua MC94 can motor kit retrofitted, and runs rather well. Anyway, moving up the scale in prototype faithfulness, Atlas has announced an HO GP38. While inappropriate for PRR, it would be correct for PRSL 2000-2009. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Wire Trains Bruce Andrews wrote: "Just one question left. What would be typical motive power for such a wire train?" Bruce, Depending on your era, probably anything that was available. Some documented photos show L1 2-8-2's and H Class 2-8-0. I can't think of any diesel shots working this train but I am sure there is something somewhere.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:17:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco's on the PRR In a message dated 6/7/00 8:56:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << The PRR may not have been fond of Alco but if you count the models Alco is the clear winner for total number of models on the PRR. You can count B units as a separate model or not it makes no difference. Alco clearly provided more models tha any other provider. Quantities however are a far different matter. >> Well, I have not gone back to check, but I'd have to say off the top of my head your probably right! I think the PRR was the most loyal road to Alco and at least tried everything. Modeling the mid-sixties, I tend to model more EMD than anything, but I definitely love the Alco's and have a good representation on the layout. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Wire Trains (Attn: Al Buchan!) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:03:11 -0400 This sounds just too easy and too kewl to pass up. Gotta do one!! Lew Matt -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Wire Trains (Attn: Al Buchan!) >Jerry asked: >> >>1. How much would a circa 1954 wire train out of Harrisburg differed in >>consist? >>2. Any guess as to what class of gondola this might have been? Any special >>paint scheme? > >The wire train you refer to is what I call a "late" wire train (ie, when >the XL class cars were phased out) The Harrisburg train most likely kept >its XL cars through 1954, and they may have been either the old grey scheme >or the new yellow scheme. This is good news as you should be able to model >the entire wire train from available kits. > >A typical wire train consist (from videos, photos and Al Buchan) was: >one XL riding car (w/cupola and pantograph) - not currently available as a >model (kitbash Westerfield by adding cupola and pantograph) >one XL tool and material car (Westerfield) >one or two FM or FGRA tower cars (FM tower car from Railworks) >one GR or GRA gondola wire/cable stroage car (in later years this might be >a G32B) (I beleive this car is available from several sources including MOW >from Westerfield) > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:25:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Photos Online From: Jerry Britton I have added additional photos to the web sites for two of our subscribers layouts... I have added more photos from the first public op session at Larry Reynolds' place back in March... And I have added several construction photos from the expansion of Ken McCorry's layout, also taken in March. Ken devised a wonderful multi-track swing gate. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ For those who may be interested but are not on my Eastern Region's private mailing list (PRR-ER), I have also posted construction photos on my layout's site. The wall studding is done and electrical work will commence shortly. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Wire Trains Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:55:03 -0400 Bruce Smith wrote: > A typical wire train consist (from videos, photos and Al Buchan) was Thanks for the information, including the tips on modeling. This makes another interesting train to add to the list to model. At least its short enough to do the complete trian. Just one question left. What would be typical motive power for such a wire train? Thanks, Bruce Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:17:04 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Forthcoming Mantua PRR 060 and Atlas HO GP38 Hello list, I was just surfing Walthers' web site, and Mantua has announced a PRR 060 tank engine. This is probably based on their Little Six (zinc boiler, belpaire firebox, no known prototype). I have a Little Six, and what it lacks in faithfulness to (any) prototype, it makes up for in sentimental appeal and pulling power. Mine has the Mantua MC94 can motor kit retrofitted, and runs rather well. Anyway, moving up the scale in prototype faithfulness, Atlas has announced an HO GP38. While inappropriate for PRR, it would be correct for PRSL 2000-2009. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Wire Trains Bruce Andrews wrote: "Just one question left. What would be typical motive power for such a wire train?" Bruce, Depending on your era, probably anything that was available. Some documented photos show L1 2-8-2's and H Class 2-8-0. I can't think of any diesel shots working this train but I am sure there is something somewhere.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:17:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco's on the PRR In a message dated 6/7/00 8:56:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << The PRR may not have been fond of Alco but if you count the models Alco is the clear winner for total number of models on the PRR. You can count B units as a separate model or not it makes no difference. Alco clearly provided more models tha any other provider. Quantities however are a far different matter. >> Well, I have not gone back to check, but I'd have to say off the top of my head your probably right! I think the PRR was the most loyal road to Alco and at least tried everything. Modeling the mid-sixties, I tend to model more EMD than anything, but I definitely love the Alco's and have a good representation on the layout. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:09:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Forthcoming Atlas HO GP38 In a message dated 6/7/00 9:11:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Anyway, moving up the scale in prototype faithfulness, Atlas has announced an HO GP38. While inappropriate for PRR, it would be correct for PRSL 2000-2009. >> Only if you rebuild the cab. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:03:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Wire Trains On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Bruce Andrews wrote: > Bruce Smith wrote: > > > A typical wire train consist (from videos, photos and Al Buchan) was > > Thanks for the information, including the tips on modeling. This makes > another interesting train to add to the list to model. At least its short > enough to do the complete trian. > > Just one question left. What would be typical motive power for such a wire > train? Typical motive power was older steam, serving out its last few years. In the 40's and early 50's this consisted of an E3sd for the Thorndale wire train (video "Under the Catenary, Penn Valley Films) and E3sd #5066 on the Wilmington wire train (1938, from the High Line special issue, The Octoraro Branch). In addition, freshly shopped steamers (usually L-1 or E-6) might get a test run on the wire or wreck train. In later years small dieesel switchers got the call. For example, Dec 26, 1956 saw GE 44 tonner #9344 on the Lancaster Wire train (Triumph II) Jerry - note that this train has the combined material-rider car you noted. This car has round end windows, and appears to be converted from a PB-54 or similar passenger car. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:33:28 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR engine on E bay On the HO scale board on e bay is a CNJ double ended Baldwin diesel made by Overland that is painted Tuscan with five stripes and lettered for PRR. I thought some of you may want to look at this beast in PRR paint. All I will say is, "Interseting". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:33:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Assembled Bowser locos for Sale...Sale over I want to thanks those of you that helped me find good homes for my excess motive power. As of today, all locomotives have been sold. If the purchasers change their minds, I will repost the orphans again. A personal Thank You to Jerry Britton for permitting me to use your list. My signal system can now become a reality. Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:12:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Varnish overcoat... Carl, We all hpe you are recovering and doing fine. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ You wrote: If I had been selling paints varnishes to the PRR, I would have never recommended applying a coat of varnish, paint or any other organic coating over a cleaned that had been wiped with "hot water, oil soap and kerosene". The "varnish or paint won't stick!That type of substrate is a paint salesman worst nightmare. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I have to agree... Take a look in the Bob Reid Penn Central Motive Power Annual, and thumb throught the pages on the Baldwin Shark's and see how well that varnish faired... Greg Martin the ring Leader of the OUTLAWED Martin Gang... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 18:56:55 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design > Jerry: > > From personal experience, one thing about straight plywood with no homasote > -- it projects much more noise. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] "SO" tower model board. Just found out SO's model board is on display at the Altoona RR Museum. Sounds like a must see! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:22:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design Sorry if I missed earlier posts on this; I have an extensive helix built using Homasote over spline-roadbed construction, which has some advantages because there are no joints in the subroadbed. In any helix, beware of the problems when wood expands and contracts with humidity changes. The rail doesn't, so you can have gaps or "sun kinks" develop. And expansion gaps on what is usually a tight curve are hard to maintain without inducing derailments. My helix is two and three tracks, which seemed like a great idea to get a lot of mainline in the same area (they are logically part of different areas of the layout -- one track to get the mainline up to the upper level, and one to get it back down again). But maintaining track on multiple-track helixes is a big hassle, with the low clearances between turns of the helix. Think of reaching six inches inside a space with a height of only three inches (HO), and trying to use a pair of pliers to correct a joint; or worse, a soldering iron. Just some hints . . . John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:45:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design Regarding helixes and track/roadbed expansion and contraction here's a trick I picked up from somewhere. Use flex track in your helix but when attaching it to the subroadbed don't use nails thru the holes in the ties. Use a stapler to hold down the tie between the rails, this way the track structure can move sideways to allow for expansion and contraction due to humidity and temp. Solder all rail joiners and put in feeders once per revolution. As long as the track can move sideways no kinks will appear and all the staple has to do is hold the track down. I've got a three track 2/12 turn helix on 1/2 ply and cork that moves back and forth with no problems. ---------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 01:58:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Forthcoming MTH PRR B-6 O-Guage New MTH Catalog Y2K V-3 (RK) lists a die cast PRR B-6 with slope back tender At 17" over the couplers 4 5/8" off the rails and 2 1/2" wide, this baby seems to be very close to scale - at least in dimensions. (Much like their USRA 0-8-0) Deduct 3/4" per end for the Hi Rail couplers (front and rear) and this piece comes out to a scale 62' over the end sills.... quite close, allowing for the extra length of the 3 rail drawbar. Finally, something to push the Jordan spreader or the Russell snow plow. Also offered in the Rail King line is a die cast M-1 with a high (modern) headlight - at 23" OAL, this one is a bit undersize Bad news in the Premeir line, for some, there are no two rail offererings.......... Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 02:14:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Forthcoming MTH PRR B-6 O-Guage In a message dated 6/9/00 2:11:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << 4 5/8" off the rails >> Make that 3 5/8" (15' ) Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:38:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design This sounds like a great idea; of course, once the helix is constructed, it may be impossible to use stapler in the confined space. But manually inserted staple-equivalents may well be possible. John Bobsin On 8 Jun 00, at 23:45, KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > Regarding helixes and track/roadbed expansion and contraction here's a > trick I picked up from somewhere. Use flex track in your helix but > when attaching it to the subroadbed don't use nails thru the holes in > the ties. Use a stapler to hold down the tie between the rails, this > way the track structure can move sideways to allow for expansion and > contraction due to humidity and temp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:46:55 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] P5a paint schemes Hi All, About 9 months ago, we had a discussion of paint schemes for P5a modified electric locomotives. In that discussion, photos of two locos #4752 and #4789 in the Sept. 1976 Keystone on page 10 show a "six stripe" scheme, however the photos are relatively small and it is difficult to find specific details. However, in the book "Pennsy Electric Pictorial", Zak & Withers, there is an excellent photo (undated) on P34, of P-5a modified #4752 with 6 stripe scheme. The specifics of the scheme are as follows: 1939-1940 (only confirmed dates so far) Five straight gold stripes along frame. top and bottom stripe wrap around ends, middle three stripes end at MU connections. Sixth, "whisker stripe" follows more "classical" line curving down at teh ends of the loco Futura lettering PRR inside side keystone, instead of number (the other #4789 had its # in the keystone) Car numbers over vents (must be on metal coutouts), in line w/ PENNSYLVANIA lettering Rounded ends on lower carbody vents (looks like the panel was replaced) I did note one small mistake regarding the P5a modifieds in the caption on P35. The caption reads "These units were rebuilt with additional carbody ventilation panels during their long careers". This is incorrect as this photo is the Right side - which had more upper carbody vents than the left side! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:52:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design From: Jerry Britton On 7/29/39 1:44 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: > how much of a problem is temperature, really, in a basement? Theoretically, > basements should be of fairly constant temperature. Just curious if anyone's > ever done measurements to see what variation actually exists. > > As to humidity, how about sealing the wood with a varnish coat or two? Will > this fix the problem? Would the wood have to be sealed even _before_ putting > various pieces together, i.e., before wood contacts wood? > (Someone cross-posted from my private model railroad list (PRR-ER) onto PRR-Talk. Sorry!) Temperature in my basement is fairly constant year round. However, humidity changes quite a bit. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:59:26 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Columbia question Hello all, I was browsing through my new copy of "Pennsy Electric Pictorial", Zak & Withers and I had the following question. On age 22, the photo is identified as Columbia, and a southbound P5a (coming toward the camera, left to right). There are two bridges over the track in the background, two set of tracks under catenary in foreground appear to rise in the far distance (north?) or the third & 4th track (P5a is on 3rd) appear to fall. At least one additional track in background, perhaps 2, all under catenary, all catenary hung from cross wires, not cross bars, and the catenary poles are between every 2 tracks. Frankly, I know Columbia pretty well, and I can't place the photo. I'm suspicious that the location is elsewhere, perhaps at a flyover (Perhaps PARK?). Any ideas would be welcome. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joseph Schwieterman" Subject: [PRR] Continuing search for photo--tower at Liverpool (jct), Ind. Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:57:08 CDT My month-long search for a photograph of PRR/Penn Central/Conrail/Amtrak operations at the former junction at Liverpool, Indiana (along the Fort Wayne mainline between Hobart and Gary) has turned up nothing. Does anybody have any suggestions about where I might find a photograph at this location? Local historical societies apparently have nothing. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 15:56:08 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Pennsy roller bearing trucks I have been waiting for some time for MDC Pennsy roller bearing trucks. They have been on back order from my hobby shop since Feb. Tonite, I checked the Walthers' website to see when they are expected and to my surprise they are no longer even listed! What a crisis, they are a staple of my passenger car fleet! The Bachmann trucks are excellent but not sold separately and the ECW trucks are not worth talking about. Any suggestions -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy roller bearing trucks Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:43:31 -0400 Andy, How many do you need? Dennis mailto: Dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 FAX ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Miller To: PRR Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 3:56 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy roller bearing trucks > I have been waiting for some time for MDC Pennsy roller bearing trucks. > They have been on back order from my hobby shop since Feb. Tonite, I > checked the Walthers' website to see when they are expected and to my > surprise they are no longer even listed! What a crisis, they are a > staple of my passenger car fleet! > The Bachmann trucks are excellent but not sold separately and the ECW > trucks are not worth talking about. > > Any suggestions > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:55:51 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Photos of the C&PD Hello Again! In addition to the book mentioned in my previous post (Pennsy Electric Pictorial), i picked up a copy of "The Remarkable GG-1", by Karl Zimmermann, Quadrant Press Review. This book has some of the best photos of the C&PD that I have ever seen published!!! p13 Peach Bottom - single track, cliff, river p38 Wildcat tunnel, slide fence p39 Columbia p39 near Peach Bottom, single track, cliff, river p64 Peach Bottom, single track, cliff, slide fence p65 Holtwood, double track, rocks These photos will serve as excellent references for modeling some of the more remote sections of the C&PD! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:01:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Square vs round, #s in keystones Ok y'all, When did the PB70 get round windows in the baggage door? Several photos show that in 1938, these doors had square windows...and the earliest "porthole" window photo I have seen is 1947. I have seen a number of photos from the mid 40's ('44, '45) but these are on the Octoraro branch, and the baggage door is always OPEN! Also, for those of you modeling pre-1940, it appears that the GG-1 had an 18" keystone on the carbody side with the loco number (even after numbers were placed at the ends of the carbodies, and that the use of the PRR-keystone on the side began with dropping of the Futura lettering. Is this correct? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Square vs round, #s in keystones Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:02:14 -0400 In "Pennsylvannia Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering," by Charles Blardone, Jr. and Peter Tilp, page 15, picture 4, shows B70 #6042 with porthole windows and 3C-P1 trucks. The caption reads, Photographed in Altoona in September, 1938, this classic has the newer-style doors eith porthole windows,..." Also, from the book, "Pennsylvannia Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book," published by N. J. International, Inc., on page15, the road numbers listed are 6000-6054 with truck types used. I hope this is beneficial to you. Good luck, Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 5:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Square vs round, #s in keystones > Ok y'all, > > When did the PB70 get round windows in the baggage door? Several photos > show that in 1938, these doors had square windows...and the earliest > "porthole" window photo I have seen is 1947. I have seen a number of > photos from the mid 40's ('44, '45) but these are on the Octoraro branch, > and the baggage door is always OPEN! > > Also, for those of you modeling pre-1940, it appears that the GG-1 had an > 18" keystone on the carbody side with the loco number (even after numbers > were placed at the ends of the carbodies, and that the use of the > PRR-keystone on the side began with dropping of the Futura lettering. Is > this correct? > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] Square vs round, #s in keystones Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:16:44 -0400 Unfortunately, I misread your query and responded with information about the B70 Baggage Car, not the PB70 Combine. Did you know that there are two subclasses of the PB70? One is the PB70DR. The other is the PB70F. This information is from, "Pennsyvannia Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams," by Wayner Publications (1981), p12. Both feature porthole windows in the doors. The PB70DR seats 44, while the PB70F seats 36. This latter model is a modernized version. Since the newer version has the wider windows applied, it would seem logical that the porthole windowed doors were apllied simultaneously. This started circa 1938 and ended about mid-1944. This information I gleaned from the Blardone and Tilp captions in the reference I mentioned in the previous post. Now, I hope this is more relevant than my last response. Good luck, Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 5:01 PM Subject: [PRR] Square vs round, #s in keystones > Ok y'all, > > When did the PB70 get round windows in the baggage door? Several photos > show that in 1938, these doors had square windows...and the earliest > "porthole" window photo I have seen is 1947. I have seen a number of > photos from the mid 40's ('44, '45) but these are on the Octoraro branch, > and the baggage door is always OPEN! > > Also, for those of you modeling pre-1940, it appears that the GG-1 had an > 18" keystone on the carbody side with the loco number (even after numbers > were placed at the ends of the carbodies, and that the use of the > PRR-keystone on the side began with dropping of the Futura lettering. Is > this correct? > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:24:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design Mark the temp swings in a heated space are probably not enought to cause any expansion/ contraction problems. The humidity at least here in the Mid Atlantic states is usually the culprit. Swings from 20% during the winter months to 90% + in the summer are the problem. I have a heated air conditioned barn, masonry first floor construction and frame second floor construction. Extremely well insulated and have changes in the interior length of the building of 1/2'' from summer to winter. Sealing wood will not help unless you cover all surfaces. Homasote is like a sponge looking for moisture and that is where I have noticed the expansion and contraction. It dries out in the winter shrinking which makes it look like the track has expanded. Plywood construction like I use seems to less effected by humidity than normal dimensional lumber. You couldn't put enought moisture in the air with any equiptment to keep up with the dryness of heated air. You just have to design things to be able to move a little without problems. --------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:02:04 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design Ken/Anyone else: I have been following this discussion and the staple idea for helix/curves is terriffic (and something I never thought of). If you don't mind me asking, any ideas for long straight sections of track to keep them from buckling from high humidity? Thanks, Jeff Warner KEMACPRR@aol.com wrote: > Mark the temp swings in a heated space are probably not enought to cause any > expansion/ contraction problems. The humidity at least here in the Mid > Atlantic states is usually the culprit. Swings from 20% during the winter > months to 90% + in the summer are the problem. I have a heated air > conditioned barn, masonry first floor construction and frame second floor > construction. Extremely well insulated and have changes in the interior > length of the building of 1/2'' from summer to winter. Sealing wood will not > help unless you cover all surfaces. Homasote is like a sponge looking for > moisture and that is where I have noticed the expansion and contraction. It > dries out in the winter shrinking which makes it look like the track has > expanded. Plywood construction like I use seems to less effected by humidity > than normal dimensional lumber. You couldn't put enought moisture in the air > with any equiptment to keep up with the dryness of heated air. You just have > to design things to be able to move a little without problems. > > --------------------------- Ken McCorry > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 06:42:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design 0100,0100,0100Jeff asked about expansion in tangent track. I would think that expansion joints would be the best idea in straight track; they don't have the tendency to cause derailments that joints on tight curves have. It might be a good idea to remember how the prototype does it: they actually force the rail to deform. That's what all those anchors do in continuously welded rail. And when installing rail in cold weather, I believe they heat it by passing electrical current through it, to get it to a temperature somewhere in the mid range of the expected natural swings. When they mis-engineer the number of rail anchors, then spectacular things happen on hot days: BOING! John Bobsin trying to figure out how to put staples in to an existing helix! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:44:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design Most flex track has one rail locked into the ties and one that can move. I allow about .20 between rail ends and try to make sure that I alternate the moveable rail from one side to the other. This way each section has some give. If I lay track in the spring /summer or in times of high long term humidity I allow a little more room for expansion say .30 between each section. To keep the gaps somewhat uniform I just cut some .20 and .30 styrene into 1'' by 1'' squares and put them between the rail ends. Attach 10' or 20' of rail to the subroadbed then go back and pull the styrene spacers. I've had to do some adjustments here and there but after the first year or so no more adjustments are needed. ----------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:49:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-ER] Helix Design Folks, I've been noticing this discussion of humidity problems as well. That staple idea is great, and not jut for helix construction. But strangly, my main problem has been on tangents as well, and that was due to the homosote reacting to humidity changes. What I did find out is that my "new" house has much worse humidity problems than my old one, which forced me to do old things in a new way. Homosote is fine if coated with latex on all surfaces, screwed AND glued to plywood. This is especially true when using narrower peices, such as a single or double track roadbed surface; expansion was much worse on large sheets. A partial solution to that problem was to use, say, 1X2 foot sections rather than 2X8 foot ones, in addition to the above precautions. Homosote will indeed obsorb water eventually, but so will a life preserver and I always take one of those in the boat. Ironicly, the weather here has been extremely hot and humid lately and running the air conditioner draws a lot of moisture out of the air. It's mainly during rainy spring times that I've had a problem. Guess it does depend a lot on the season in which you lay the stuff. I think I'm going to use 1/8" cork sheet on my next yard, as that thickness exactly matchs the Midwest roadbed I've been using, and is much cheaper. (You can, for example, cut 48 feet of single track roadbed from a 2X4 foot sheet costing about $8, or get a 1X8 foot yard area from one sheet). Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:05:48 -0400 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] Re: Helix Design BPX29@aol.com wrote: >What I did find out is that my "new" house has >much worse humidity problems than my old one If anybody thinks that a new house is better than an old one, think again. Most new home contractors and subdivision developers make their money by screwing their subcontractors. The subs take pride in not doing a good job, but in doing a job quickly. Most homes built after the 1950s fall into this category. My suggestion to all prospective home buyers is to find an older home in an area with a low water table. If it needs work, be prepared to pay a premium for *a reputable remodeler*. If you go with the lowest bidder, you'll regret it forever. Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com Conrail Detroit Shared Assests Area website: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/SAA/SAA.htm Lost and Found Railroad Railroad Photographs website: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Found/found.htm New Brighton, PA, PRR Flyover website: http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/Pgh/NewBrighton.htm CSX in Southeast Michigan website: http://members.aol.com/jsundin357/plydiam.html Railroading in Ohio website (still under construction): http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/ohio.htm "We shall drink no wine before its time"... It's TIIIIIIME! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:38:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Helix Design norek@mail.msen.com wrote: BPX29@aol.com wrote: >What I did find out is that my "new" house has >much worse humidity problems than my old one If anybody thinks that a new house is better than an old one, think again. Most new home contractors and subdivision developers make their money by screwing their subcontractors. -------------------------- Oh yeah, I'm well aware how contractors work. My "old" house was built in 1950, my "new" house in 1956, which was why I used the quote marks. Some things, such as weather patterns and problems encounted by various owners of a 30-some year old house are just the luck of the draw I'm afraid. But I was exremely lucky with my first house as it had the tightest basement I ever hung around in, even though it had been built over an old lakebed. But as for a new house, no way. I have enough trouble getting Sears to hook up a water heater right. I wouldn't trade even up for a new house if I had to be the one dealing with the contractors. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Bundick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Branch Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:46:46 -0400 This sounds similar to the way NS runs trains in southwest Virginia between Roanoke and Narrows,VA (just before hitting WV). The single track ex-VGN is still in place between these points, with a connection at Narrows. E-Bound freights (mostly coal trains) use the ex-VGN line due to better grades. The ex N&W is still double track between these points, and handles trains in both directions. (The ex N&W and VGN basically paralled each other in this area.) In essence it gives them a 3 track main for maybe 50 miles or so. It will be interesting to see what could happen with the A&S. Steve >Hi, > >A few months ago I posted a note concerning what a government official said >concerning the HBG line "some part of the HBG Line was going to be singled >tracked". He indicated that this was a plan of NS not CR (meaning this is >post merger). If this was to occur NS could operate the HBG Line in one >direction, re-open the A&S Br. then make a connection at Thorn to the old >P&T Br. to Phila. and NY and points north and run this in the opposite >direction. Time will tell if this rumor holds H2O. > >I was laughed at for posting the rumor, so before anyone laughs take a >look at your maps. The above could work- maybe not exactly smooth BUT is NS >smoothly operating things today? > >Could NS be building this to run roadrailers/intermodal from Rutherford >west to Lemoyne down to a connection either at Cork or Park to run to >NYC/northern NJ? Making better time with higher speeds on NEC? > >Time will tell. > >Just a thought, > >442 > >At 18:14 6/6/00 -0400, you wrote: >>Just a thought as to the question of the what the new (re-installed) third >>track can be for. >>NS is taking a lot of heat from the communities along the Harrisburg line. >>They (the communities) are >>doing the noise thing, the speed thing and the blocking the crossing thing. >>Now for the guess part. >>What line is grade crossing free, high speed and is of low gentle grades? >>A few months back NS went investigating the Low Grade, and took it out of >>the rails to trails program. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:48:56 +0000 Subject: [PRR] NMRA Kalmbach Library surplus book sale NMRA Kalmbach Library surplus book sale After two months of work, the National Model Railroad Association's Kalmbach Memorial Library's surplus book page has been updated and there are a lot of new titles on the page. The rare books will be updated next week. On the surplus book page, you will find books of interest on both modeling and prototype topics. These are books that the library has declared surplus generally because there are several copies more than are needed. Also, some changes have been made in the hosting of several of our pages, anyone with a direct link to the surplus book pages should change their link to: http://www.nmra.org/library/duplicate.htm To find out more about he NMRA Kalmbach Memorial Library, you can Visit http://www.nmra.org/library Roger Roger Hensley - 00rphensley@bsuvc.bsu.edu - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://www.nmra.org/standards ======================== == NMRA Standards & Recommended Practices =============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] Lowellville, OH Station on the PY&A Fellow listers, I'm looking for some background info. on the wooden passenger/freight station in Lowellville, OH on the former PY&A. The station is still extant, and as a matter of fact has been recently restored and is an absolutely beautiful building. I'm curious about when the building may have been built, or if there are any photos of it in service. One feature of the building seems odd, it has a poured concrete basement with poured posts for the center beam. I tend to believe the basement was built after the station building, because the station at one time had coal stoves in the waiting room and agent's office, while the basement has a coal furnace in it. Did the PY&A have standard station plans? Any help would be appreciated. Rick Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:48:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steam Locomotive Inspection Report from 1957 I found in our collection the inspection, cleaning and test record for I1sa 4336 for 1957. We're raising money for another preservation project, and have decided to make some of our PRR and non PRR items available. I've put this item on ebay, and if interested it is at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=355405062 Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Mittner" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Painting Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:24:52 -0700 All you SPF'ers If you are interested in original Pennsylvania Railroad art, I currently have a painting up for bid on eBay! It is of a streamlined, bronze version K-4 outrunning a storm in a rural setting somewhere in Pennsylvania. You can view the painting at the following site. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350154877 Auction ends around 5:00 pm today, PST. Thanks, Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:42:38 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Part number for new Kadee scale-size HO coupler Hello list, On page 61 of the July MR is a picture of Kadee's new, smaller-headed coupler. It looks like it's a drop in replacement for a number 5. Do any of you know what the part number is? I checked Kadee's web site and couldn't find this one listed (perhaps I looked in the wrong place?). When (roughly) will it be available? Thanks in advance! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: [PRR] FW: F-38 Flat Car Project Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:21:12 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Rail Classics [mailto:railclassics@psn.net] Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 6:19 PM To: Penn Central Talk Subject: F-38 Flat Car Project Hello List; We at Rail Classics (www.railclassics.com) are importing the PRR F-38 Heavy Duty Flat Car in "HO Scale Brass. We have had many requests to also import the F-38 painted and lettered for Penn Central and Conrail. If the needed data for PC and Conrail can be secured, we will import them also. What we need is the road numbers the PC and Conrail assigned to them, also the paint & lettering diagrams and any photos that are available in PC and Conrail paint.. Thank You, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PC-Buff@webtv.net Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 20:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals Hello Have a few questions concerning The "Bullet Signals". Could anyone tell me why some have 7 lights on top and 5 on the bottom while some have 7 ligts on top and 3 on the bottom slanted in either direction? also is there a net site where I can print off the different approach meanings? thanks John MP 258 Sunbury Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:35:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [READING] MORE ON THE TRENTON CUTOFF Many power companies used electric steeple cabs fo internal switching. I believe Dayton Power and Light still does although this is certainly not on the Reading. It should be justifiable to do that with many power companies dependent on how accurate you are modeling a specific line or area. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:23:18 GMT The answer is simple, why pay for stuff you'll never use. Not ever signal needs to show every single aspect. If a bor of lights will never be used, why install them. any face of a PRR signal can have 7, 5, 3, or 2 lights. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Signals Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:24:40 -0700 They are called position light signals. Three lights are lit either vertically, diagonally, or horizontally. Information is conveyed based on the position of the lights much like a semaphore signal. They only install the lights needed for the indications needed. The indications needed are determined by the topology of the track. Mark Bej has a 1956 PRR rule book at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/ which will define the indications for you. Scroll down to rule 280. He also has a good overview of signaling at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Signal/ which contains a good cross reference between aspects for different railroads. John > ---------- > From: PC-Buff@webtv.net[SMTP:PC-Buff@webtv.net] > Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 5:41 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals > > Hello Have a few questions concerning The "Bullet Signals". Could anyone > tell me why some have 7 lights on top and 5 on the bottom while some > have 7 ligts on top and 3 on the bottom slanted in either direction? > also is there a net site where I can print off the different approach > meanings? thanks > John MP > 258 Sunbury > Pa. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] MDC 2933 Now Sold Out Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:38:32 -0400 Sorry! Dennis mailto: Dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 FAX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:37:34 EDT Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Signals My understanding is three lights are needed to insure that the correct indication is given because two will do that if one of three is burned out but if one of two were burned out you couldn't detremine direction. Yet terminal and yard signals were only two high. Does anybody know the rules governing these in that event? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] RE: 480-2933 Trucks Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:10:19 -0400 Andy, I called MDC today. they said, "The item has not been run in several years and there is no replacement part available." I asked if it was discontinued. They said yes. Thank you for your interest in One Railroad Avenue Dennis mailto: Dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 FAX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:11:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE I would like to build a one inch scale model of a double track, PRR, signal bridge. Can anyone come up with a drawing?? DICK POOLE Dpoole17@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRR Signal Bridge Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:09:45 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFD4AA.27324D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How about plans for a four track signal bridge? Seein as how you may be = looking anyway?Give me something else to build. I will probably need = more than a few, and I might as well get started now. Thanks Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFD4AA.27324D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How about plans for a four track signal bridge? = Seein as how=20 you may be looking anyway?Give me something else to build. I will = probably need=20 more than a few, and I might as well get started now.

Thanks

Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFD4AA.27324D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PC-Buff@webtv.net Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:13:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Signals Just wanted to say thanks for the references John (Milepost 258) Sunbury Pa ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 20:26:09 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] How Black is Black (and how it was made that color)?? (I've been travelling, off email..) One 'recipe' for Brunswick Green: Get a gallon of black paint. Put it _next_ _to_ a pint of green paint. Leave them overnight. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:40:34 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > My understanding is three lights are needed to insure that the correct >indication is given because two will do that if one of three is burned >out Agreed. > but if one of two were burned out you couldn't detremine direction. >Yet terminal and yard signals were only two high. Does anybody know >the rules governing these in that event? Yard an terminal signals are approached, by definition, at lower speeds. Depending on which lamp is out, they can be 'decoded'. Also, in a yard, communications is to hand (as it wasn't, on the line, in the past.) Perhaps the best reerence on these is a Keystone Special Issue devoted entirely to them... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:52:52 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > Warning: not much real PRR content but of interest to electric loco > folks- and hence semi-on-target. > While web surfing, I found a site about the NYC subways that explains > (to my simple mind) why most electric railway equipment used 25hz AC > current, rather than the more widely available 60 hz: It was easier to > convert 25hz AC to DC than 60 hz to DC. The rotary convertors were > smaller, less complicated and lasted longer. Once mercury arc > convertors became available, it was a moot point but too late to change > the generating equipment. > > the site is http://www.nycsubway.org/tech/power/rotary.html ....and.... (I'm parphrasing the articles writ at the time in the professional papers, by those who designed the equipment...) 25 Hz had lower line drop (less inudctive reactance.) And allowed better AC Series Motor performance than 60 Hz. Which has to do with PRR, et al, rathr than subways, per se... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:18:00 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] HO PRR passenger car trucks Hello list, This is in response to the discontinuance of the Roundhouse 2933 passenger car truck. Consider using the in stock (I just checked the Walthers Catalog) Roundhouse 2935 passenger truck. It's appropriate for some (but not necessarily all) of the following PRR passenger car classes: BD85, BM70nb, D70c, D85a, D85c, D85d, M70b, P70, P70b, P70d, P70fbr, P70g, P70gs, P70h, P70k, P85g, PC70, PC70b, PL85, PLB85, PLC85, POC85a My source is PRR Passenger equipment roster, 1 October 1954. I believe that the Rounhouse 2935 passenger car trucks were (in real life) designed by Commonwealth? Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:04:14 -0400 Mr. Poole: Try "57 Plans,MofW,PRR" page 43. Plan can be used for 2 to 8 tracks. Pardon me if someone else wrote. Paul S. -----Original Message----- From: DPoole17@aol.com [SMTP:DPoole17@aol.com] Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 7:11 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE I would like to build a one inch scale model of a double track, PRR, signal bridge. Can anyone come up with a drawing?? DICK POOLE Dpoole17@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:24:17 -0700 Probably, the most telling reason is that in the yard a burned out bulb is more likely to be fixed immediately, and not have to wait for a crew to get out into the middle of nowhere to replace a bulb. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: davep To: NDBPRR@aol.com Cc: johncoop@microsoft.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals >NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > >>... but if one of two were burned out you couldn't detremine direction. >>Yet terminal and yard signals were only two high. Does anybody know >>the rules governing these in that event? > > Yard an terminal signals are approached, by definition, at lower > speeds. Depending on which lamp is out, they can be 'decoded'. > > Also, in a yard, communications is to hand (as it wasn't, on > the line, in the past.) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 05:31:35 -0700 Dick, I could be wrong, but I don't think that the PRR used signal bridges in double track territory. There was no need for an expensive structure to carry signals when they could be placed alongside the track on poles. My understanding is that signal bridges were used only when lineside signals were not able to be used, as in three or more main lines. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: DPoole17@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 4:19 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE >I would like to build a one inch scale model of a double track, PRR, signal >bridge. Can anyone come up with a drawing?? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:20:48 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR passenger car trucks Doug, I believe the "Commonwealth" truck is appropriate for any of the 85 footers you mention and also the BM70n and BM70nb. But I remain highly skeptical that it ever appeared under any P70 class car other then the P70fbr, D74dd, D74f and later moderizations of the Z-74. I fear we are stuck with the ECW truck despite its problems. Perhaps we need someone to plead (bribe, threaten) Bachmann into making its trucks available separately. BTW I think the D70 and M70 would have used a 6 wheel truck. Perhaps all of the cars you mention had trucks built for the PRR by Commonwealth, but I doubt they were "Commonwealth" trucks as model RRers know them. They were probably built to PRR designs. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "doug.kisala" wrote: > > Hello list, > > This is in response to the discontinuance of the Roundhouse 2933 > passenger car truck. > > Consider using the in stock (I just checked the Walthers Catalog) > Roundhouse 2935 passenger truck. It's appropriate for some (but not > necessarily all) of the following PRR passenger car classes: > > BD85, BM70nb, D70c, D85a, D85c, D85d, M70b, P70, P70b, P70d, P70fbr, > P70g, P70gs, P70h, P70k, P85g, PC70, PC70b, PL85, PLB85, PLC85, POC85a > > My source is PRR Passenger equipment roster, 1 October 1954. > > I believe that the Rounhouse 2935 passenger car trucks were (in real > life) designed by Commonwealth? > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:44:07 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Here is a photo of a signal bridge over the single track main & siding at Lovell on the PRR's P&E branch: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/lovell.htm -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm -- Bill Daniels wrote: Dick, I could be wrong, but I don't think that the PRR used signal bridges in double track territory. There was no need for an expensive structure to carry signals when they could be placed alongside the track on poles. My understanding is that signal bridges were used only when lineside signals were not able to be used, as in three or more main lines. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:12:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How Black is Black (and how it was made that color)?? In a message dated 6/12/2000 8:33:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, davep@quik.com writes: > One 'recipe' for Brunswick Green: > > Get a gallon of black paint. > Put it _next_ _to_ a pint of green paint. > Leave them overnight. Obviously base on some famous recipes for a dry martini: e.g., pour gin, hold up vermouth bottle so that label can be seen by the gin, return vermouth to shelf. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:46:53 -0400 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] How Black is Black (and how it was made that color)?? What's the one way guaranteed to generate an argument: Say that you have the recipe for the perfect (Select One) martini DGLE. Oh what fun it is to subscribe!! Tom Mahon BBReynolds@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/2000 8:33:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, davep@quik.com > writes: > > > One 'recipe' for Brunswick Green: > > > > Get a gallon of black paint. > > Put it _next_ _to_ a pint of green paint. > > Leave them overnight. > > Obviously base on some famous recipes for a dry martini: e.g., pour gin, hold > up vermouth bottle so that label can be seen by the gin, return vermouth to > shelf. > > Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:48:43 GMT Well down in PRSL country there are signal bridges (recently taken out of service) on the 2 track segment between CP-MILL and CP-BROWN. The signal bridges were installed by the PRR b4 the 1934 merger. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:08:37 -0700 Yes, I think signals in two track territory were generally attached to the catenary poles or on masts. The only exception I can think of was the line between Newark and Penn Station, which has double track signal bridges. (Soon or already to have signal-less signal bridges when they go to cabsignals only from "A" to Swift). The reason this line has signal bridges and others don't is because both tracks are signalled in both directions. The PRR never put signals on masts on the lefthand side of a track so they needed the bridges for the lefthand-running signals. John > ---------- > From: Bill Daniels[SMTP:billd@gci-net.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 5:31 AM > To: DPoole17@aol.com; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE > > Dick, > > I could be wrong, but I don't think that the PRR used signal bridges in > double track territory. There was no need for an expensive structure to > carry signals when they could be placed alongside the track on poles. My > understanding is that signal bridges were used only when lineside signals > were not able to be used, as in three or more main lines. > > Bill Daniels > -----Original Message----- > From: DPoole17@aol.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 4:19 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE > > > >I would like to build a one inch scale model of a double track, PRR, > signal > >bridge. Can anyone come up with a drawing?? > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:48:54 -0400 From: Jerry Shickler Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE A 1945 track chart shows a single track main & one siding at Lovell. -- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm -- Fred Rea wrote: Looks to me like there was a third track on the right some time in the past. Fred Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:47:51 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] How Green is Green (was How Black is Black) Hello all: I almost hate to get this started, but I recently purchased a bottle of Scalecoat II Brunswick Green. I put it beside a 10 year old bottle of Scalecoat II Brunswick Green and it is obviously MUCH greener than it used to be... Has anyone else noticed this? Does anybody have a secret formula to get the correct color that they wouldn't mind sharing? Thanks in advance, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:03:44 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE John Cooper noted, in talking about the High Line, >Soon or already to have signal-less signal bridges when they go to cabsignals only from "A" to Swift Further to this, not all may know that they have already eliminated the wayside signals through the North River tunnels, that is, from 'A' to Bergen -- Norac Rule 562 is in effect, "Movements in Territory Where Cab Signals are Used Without Fixed Automatic Block Signals" Also, regarding placement of signals to the left of the left-hand track in double-track territory, I seem to recall that I heard somewhere that this is a fairly recent practice on all railroads, and may have been made possible by a federal rules change. I think up to that point signals had to be to the right of the track governed (although you could have intervening tracks, that is, several signals side by side on a (tall) pole to the right of the tracks). John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] FW: NS auction includes PRR E-8 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:14:05 -0400 Anyone in the market for a Pennsy E8? Rob http://prr.railfan.net >-----Original Message----- >From: Inlinebob@aol.com [mailto:Inlinebob@aol.com] >Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 9:21 AM >To: erielack@internexus.net >Subject: (erielack) NS auction includes E-8 > > > >In a message dated 6/10/00 3:38:28 PM, asterix@mail1.nai.net writes: > ><including OCS E8 and inspection car 19 see : >http://www.blackmonauctions.com/altoona.htm > >here is full list : >(huge snip) >Locomotives-Altoona >(2) EMD SW1001 serviceable locomotives, NS# 2108 & 2111, 1000hp, 8 cylinder >645E engine, D25C generator, 4 axle >>>EMD E8A serviceable locomotive, NS# 1000, 2250 hp, 8 cylinder CRH engine >(4) EMD SW1500 serviceable locomotives, NS# 2307, 2324, 2330, 2347 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] How Green is Green (was How Black is Black) Jeff, I use Scalecoat almost exclusively. It seems they changed their formula for Brunswick Green about 6 years (thats a guess) ago. I mentioned this before here on PRR Talk. Unfortunately they changed it to a much too Green shade. I still use the new green but now have to add much more Loco Black to get the "black shade" I am after. I don't have an exact formula but try 4 parts Loco Black to 1 part of this new Brunswick Green. If still too green add a little more Black. I mix each batch seperately each time I spray a loco. That is the shade of DGLE I like to use. On Diesels I may add a touch more green just to make sure you can see green in outdoor sunlight photos.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:33:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How Green is Green (was How Black is Black) In a message dated 06/13/2000 2:51:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I use Scalecoat almost exclusively. It seems they changed their formula for Brunswick Green about 6 years (thats a guess) ago. I mentioned this before here on PRR Talk. Unfortunately they changed it to a much too Green shade. I still use the new green but now have to add much more Loco Black to get the "black shade" I am after. I don't have an exact formula but try 4 parts Loco Black to 1 part of this new Brunswick Green. If still too green add a little more Black. I mix each batch seperately each time I spray a loco. That is the shade of DGLE I like to use. On Diesels I may add a touch more green just to make sure you can see green in outdoor sunlight photos.....Gary >> Why not use Accuflex from Badger it is a near perfect match with the drift cards. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] How Green is Green (was How Black is Black) Rich, I am still old school! I prefer the solvent based (20 years experience) over the water based paints. I dread the day the goverment forces Scalecoat to change over to water based. If and or when they do, I will have no choice but to experiment full steam ahead with the water based. Till then, Scalecoat it is! I did use accuflex a few times already. When it first came out. Did they change any? It is going to take time to get used to.that stuff. The biggest problem I had was removing the paint masking tape. It lifted the paint right off a plastic shell when removed. The old Accu-Paint had similar results. For me anyway.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:30:04 -0700 Jerry and list, Note that I never said never...interesting pic. Looks like there once was a second main to the right. Bill Daniels ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: NS auction includes PRR E-8 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:33:31 -0700 Just what I need for my backyard railroad. Now I need a backyard big enough for this! Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Rob Schoenberg To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 11:18 AM Subject: [PRR] FW: NS auction includes PRR E-8 >Anyone in the market for a Pennsy E8? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Available E-8 Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:16:02 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFD55B.0CBB3980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Come on guys...let's start pulling our money for a bid! Will find the = room later! After all, the PRR was buying them back in 1952 without a = lot of space to put them! Not that this info is related to the PRR, but there is a E-8, in early = Amtrak colors sitting down at Mt.Clare yards in Baltimore. It still = carries its original #36 number (Baltimore & Ohio), built in 1955. It's = been sitting there since it was retired in 1981! I'm sure Amtrak would love to unload it!=20 Sad to see a passenger E-8 sitting and rusting in a graveyard. Any bids? Regards, Bob Holden PRRT&HS 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFD55B.0CBB3980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Come on guys...let's start pulling our = money for a=20 bid! Will find the room later! After all, the PRR was buying them back = in 1952=20 without a lot of space to put them!

Not that this info is related to the = PRR, but there=20 is a E-8, in early Amtrak colors sitting down at Mt.Clare yards in = Baltimore. It=20 still carries its original #36 number (Baltimore & Ohio), built in = 1955.=20 It's been sitting there since it was retired in 1981!

I'm sure Amtrak would love to unload = it!=20

Sad to see a passenger E-8 sitting and = rusting in a=20 graveyard. Any bids?

Regards, Bob Holden

PRRT&HS = 5044
------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BFD55B.0CBB3980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:17:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR passenger car trucks Andy & List. Seems the commonwelth trucks would be classes 2E-P5, 2E-P6 & 2E-P6A which incl the BM70NB class RPO's but not the BM70N class. They all rode on 3D-P1,3D-P2 or 3D7P2, 3 axle, but cast by Commonwealth Steel Co. for the PRR. pgs114 through 119 " PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD HEAVYWEIGHT EQUIPMENT PLAN AND PHOTO BOOK " Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:21:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: NS auction includes PRR E-8 Also one Business Car # 19 although formerly NYC 5,PC 5 & 6 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 17:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Available E-8 Bob, Take that suggestion up with the gurus at the PRRT&HS. It would look nice sitting at Lewistown Station all decked out in Pinstripes....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue Jun 13 18:02:23 2000 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] How Green is Green (was How Black is Black) Gize, try this for your DGLE/Brunswick Green... Start with Testors � oz. bottle of Gloss Black Enamel... remove just enough Gloss Black so that the paint is just at the bottom of the neck... at this point add a Copper BB and the balance with Floquil Brunswick green... Shake and paint... That should make a good representation of DGLE and leaves you with a good semi-gloss finish ready for decals, IMHO... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue Jun 13 18:07:28 2000 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Gize, Anyone tried kit-bashing the IHC water tower bridge into a signal bridge? It matches the dimensions fairly close. I have not tried their signal bridge,but it appears to be the same as the water tower bridge. Any thoughts? Greg Martin Outlawed by the NMRA/PSR and ring leader of the Outlawed Martin Bros. Gang... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:27:32 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] E-8 Hello all... Perhaps it would be nice if NS would be willing to donate this engine and maybe the business car to the museum in Altoona. Then again we're talking about NS here. To Bill Knepper...Bill could the Northern Central Rwy use a PRR E-8 for the dinner train? Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:53:19 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] NS E-8 Hello again you all... I had a thought and e-mailed NS with the idea of perhaps donating this engine to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum.Its not far from where the engine is now. If you would like to write a e-mail to them here is a address for their office here in Norfolk. http://www.nscorp.com/nscorp/html/contacts.html Who knows...they might listen. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] How Green is Green (was How Black is Black) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:05:43 EDT My fellow SPFs, You might also try adding some Scalecoat B&O Royal Blue to your mix. I found brand new DGLE to have some blue in it as well. Try a mix of three parts Brunswick Green, two parts Locomotive Black, and one part Royal Blue. It works for me. Andrew Harmantas SPF from down near C&O Milepost FM Zero ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:48:46 -0400 I believe that the water bridge uses the same structure as the signal bridge. It just contains extra parts for less money! Thank you for your interest in One Railroad Avenue. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com To: johncoop@microsoft.com ; dpoole17@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com ; billd@gci-net.com Date: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 6:11 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE >Gize, > >Anyone tried kit-bashing the IHC water tower bridge into a signal bridge? It matches the dimensions fairly close. I have not tried their signal bridge,but it appears to be the same as the water tower bridge. > >Any thoughts? > >Greg Martin >Outlawed by the NMRA/PSR and ring leader of the Outlawed Martin Bros. Gang... > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:57:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] TRYING IT AGAIN My intention was not to open a discussion on signal bridges or look at pictures of signal bridges. What I need is help in locating D R A W I N G S of a PRR signal bridge. If I am in the wrong place, please direct me to a site that can help me with my request. I am looking for PRR DRAWINGS. I cannot build a one inch scale signal bridge out of an HO water tower and I don't care how many tracks the PRR ran under signal bridges. Our 8,000 foot one inch scale RR needs a signal bridge to control two tracks into our yards area and I was hoping to build one, if I get the DRAWINGS!! PLEASE do not misread my request. I am not critizing anyone BUT I need drawings, not the stuff I have been getting. You guys read the same stuff I read and DRAWINGS were not mentioned once. THANK YOU VERY MUCH in advance for any help you can offer . . . BUT I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN D R A W I N G S!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:12:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] NS E8 On Auction Block From: Jerry Britton I understand that an auction is being held in Altoona later this month. Among the items on the block is a former PRR E-8 locomotive. As a "Friend of the Railroad Museum" for the museum in Strasburg, Pa., and as the listmaster of the 425+ member "PRR-Talk" Internet mailing list, I have to ask that you please consider donating this historically valuable locomotive to the museum. Thank you for your consideration. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:25:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TRYING IT AGAIN If you can locate a copy of "Pennsylvania Railroad Standard Maintenance of Way Plans" published by The Builders Compendium, Cossayuna, NY 12823 in 1967 the plans for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,7,& 8 track signal bridges are on page 43. I would copy it for you but I do not have access to a photocopier as I am home recoving from open heart surgery. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRR signal bridges Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:25:39 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BFD586.4DA73180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Seems we have established that the IHC overhead water bridge is "pretty = close" to the standard Pennsy signal bridge. My desire is to determine = if it is practical to construct a bridge from commercial brass shapes so = as to use entire bridge as one of the electrical paths. Heck, LED's last = almost forever, so once wired up, I would expect no replacement of = signal lamps for quite some time. And if one did fry, would still be = prototypical. Thanks, Walt Prusick. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BFD586.4DA73180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Seems we have established that the IHC overhead = water bridge=20 is "pretty close" to the standard Pennsy signal bridge. My desire is to=20 determine if it is practical to construct a bridge from commercial brass = shapes=20 so as to use entire bridge as one of the electrical paths. Heck, LED's = last=20 almost forever, so once wired up, I would expect no replacement of = signal lamps=20 for quite some time. And if one did fry, would still be=20 prototypical.

Thanks,

Walt Prusick.
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BFD586.4DA73180-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:22:59 -0400 From: jpbtrans Subject: Re: [PRR] Available E-8 Bob, I would be glad to throw in to save a PRR E-8. We need to find out how much and whos' backyard its going to be put in. I can always move my garage! Regards, Jon Anderson also with PRRT&HS > rholden wrote: > > Come on guys...let's start pulling our money for a bid! Will find the > room later! After all, the PRR was buying them back in 1952 without a > lot of space to put them! > > Not that this info is related to the PRR, but there is a E-8, in early > Amtrak colors sitting down at Mt.Clare yards in Baltimore. It still > carries its original #36 number (Baltimore & Ohio), built in 1955. > It's been sitting there since it was retired in 1981! > > I'm sure Amtrak would love to unload it! > > Sad to see a passenger E-8 sitting and rusting in a graveyard. Any > bids? > > Regards, Bob Holden > PRRT&HS 5044 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:25:02 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Bill Knepper Hello all... Has anyone heard from Bill Knepper lately. I've posted to him and kinda to him here and haven't heard from him in a couple of monthes. Hope hes ok. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:01:18 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] TRYING IT AGAIN Trying WHAT again? > My intention was not to open a discussion on signal bridges or look at > pictures of signal bridges. That's OK. The rest of us enjoyed the discussion.... > What I need is help in locating D R A W I N G S of a PRR signal bridge. I suppose they should have dimensions on them? Drawings without dimensions are not much good.... I've a copy of Signalling Compendium in the other room, but it might not be up to requirements. And sundry PRR standards, dunno if there is anything in there... > If I am in the wrong place, please direct me to a > site that can help me with my request. Such a site may not exist. > I am looking for PRR DRAWINGS. I > cannot build a one inch scale signal bridge out of an HO water tower and I > don't care how many tracks the PRR ran under signal bridges. Our 8,000 foot > one inch scale RR needs a signal bridge to control two tracks into our yards > area and I was hoping to build one, if I get the DRAWINGS!! > PLEASE do not misread my request. I am not critizing anyone BUT I need > drawings, not the stuff I have been getting. You guys read the same stuff I > read and DRAWINGS were not mentioned once. Is it OK if the rest of us discuss it anyway? > THANK YOU VERY MUCH in advance for any help you can offer . . . BUT I AM ONLY > INTERESTED IN D R A W I N G S!! Keystone Magazine likely has published some. The T&H Society has a web site, with copies for sale and descriptions of contents... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:25:14 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] TRYING IT AGAIN Maybe someone can recall the book , it had front and end drawings of the signal bridges in it, it showed the spacing for 1,2,3,4,5,and 6 tracks, it was green and was titled something like: "57 drawings of right of way structures and track of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I do remember the signal bridges. This book is a valuable tool for modeling the right of way. Mine is packed away somewhere, and is not handy. There was something for everyone in this book. Steve Long DPoole17@aol.com wrote: > My intention was not to open a discussion on signal bridges or look at > pictures of signal bridges. What I need is help in locating D R A W I N G S > of a PRR signal bridge. If I am in the wrong place, please direct me to a > site that can help me with my request. I am looking for PRR DRAWINGS. I > cannot build a one inch scale signal bridge out of an HO water tower and I > don't care how many tracks the PRR ran under signal bridges. Our 8,000 foot > one inch scale RR needs a signal bridge to control two tracks into our yards > area and I was hoping to build one, if I get the DRAWINGS!! > PLEASE do not misread my request. I am not critizing anyone BUT I need > drawings, not the stuff I have been getting. You guys read the same stuff I > read and DRAWINGS were not mentioned once. > THANK YOU VERY MUCH in advance for any help you can offer . . . BUT I AM ONLY > INTERESTED IN D R A W I N G S!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:45:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TRYING IT AGAIN Richard, I can copy the drawings for him but I need his address or fax number. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRR Signal Bridges Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 08:25:20 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFD5DA.14370480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, As is usually the case, the obvious escapes me. Glad you posted your = suggestion to substitute brass section as hand rail and use that as my = common. I would much rather go that route than construct a complete = signal bridge of brass shapes & sections. Cut down on the time required = & expense (not to mention the frustration!) Now if someone would/could enlighten me as to target centerline to = target centerline as well as vertical support center line to target = centerline dimensions, I would be in business. Thanks Walt Prusick =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFD5DA.14370480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg,

As is usually the case, the obvious escapes me. Glad = you=20 posted your suggestion to substitute brass section as hand rail and use = that as=20 my common. I would much rather go that route than construct a complete = signal=20 bridge of brass shapes & sections. Cut down on the time = required &=20 expense (not to mention the frustration!)

Now if someone would/could enlighten me as=20 to target centerline to target centerline as well as = vertical=20 support center line to target centerline dimensions, I would be in=20 business.

Thanks

Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BFD5DA.14370480-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:05:42 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BFD5DF.B7DE84A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry...and everyone... I do hope that NS would consider donating the former Pennsy E-8 to the = Railroad Museam at Strasburg. Much like the Pennsy E-7 that is already = there...the only one in the world that is left...this E-8 was a = operating Pennsy locomotive...and should, rightly, be in Strasburg.=20 As for the E-8 in Baltimore (formally Baltimore & Ohio)...would need = extensive work to display...and Amtrak, sadly enough, left it to sit on = the dead tracks for nineteen years! What a railroad Amtrak is! I don't = know any Amtrak officials...or for that matter CSX...and it is likely = that Amtrak returned this E-8 to Chessie System in 1981...so perhaps CSX = is this locomotives owner, not Amtrak. I do have photographs of this = E-8, and EMD builders photos of it when it was built. I think it's kind = of interesting how some roads trash their former locomotives...and I can = think back and see those Pennsy E-8's and E-7s pulling the Buffalo Day = Express on Sunday mornings...out of Baltimore! Later, everybody. Bob Holden PRRT&HS 5044 ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BFD5DF.B7DE84A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry...and everyone...

I do hope that NS would consider = donating the=20 former Pennsy E-8 to the Railroad Museam at Strasburg. Much like the = Pennsy E-7=20 that is already there...the only one in the world that is left...this = E-8 was a=20 operating Pennsy locomotive...and should, rightly, be in Strasburg.=20

As for the E-8 in Baltimore (formally = Baltimore=20 & Ohio)...would need extensive work to display...and Amtrak, sadly = enough,=20 left it to sit on the dead tracks for nineteen years! What a railroad = Amtrak is!=20 I don't know any Amtrak officials...or for that matter CSX...and it is = likely=20 that Amtrak returned this E-8 to Chessie System in 1981...so perhaps CSX = is this=20 locomotives owner, not Amtrak. I do have photographs of this E-8, and = EMD=20 builders photos of it when it was built. I think it's kind of = interesting=20 how some roads trash their former locomotives...and I can think back and = see=20 those Pennsy E-8's and E-7s pulling the Buffalo Day Express on Sunday=20 mornings...out of Baltimore!

Later, everybody.

Bob Holden

PRRT&HS 5044

------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BFD5DF.B7DE84A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:10:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 Bob and the List. Can any one confirm the the E8 in question is one of the former PENNSY E8's? the 4022 was there last summer and fall. The last time I was in the misc. shop taking pictures was late Dec 99 and the E8 that was there looked like the former 4022 ( ERIE, EL 833 ),no HEP, which would have been the standby power 4022. Maybe the 4022 did go to the CSX and the 4020 ( PRR 5809,4309, PC 4309,Amtk 315, Amtk498 ) came to NS. Pat McKinney Altoona, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed Jun 14 11:27:14 2000 From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 E8's are plentiful as a breed. Here in the midwest there are several of the old BN E8/E9's around with no takers. The IC WOodcrest shop has had two sitting outside for almost a year now after they rebuilt and painted two for IC and two for CN. The only thing that sets this one aside and rightly so is the PRR connection if it proves to be one of the originals. It might look great at Harrisburg too with the G representing the transfer of power at that point. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:46:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 From: Jerry Britton On 6/14/00 11:27 AM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote: > It might look great at Harrisburg too with the G representing the transfer of > power at that point. Unfortunately, Amtrak is pushing to have the GG-1 removed from the station. The City of Harrisburg is fighting them on it. It's not like Amtrak needs the space. Heck, of the original 10 station tracks I think only 6 still have track in place! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: RE: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:04:57 -0700 Funny how information sometimes falls into your lap - stopped off at Des Plaines Hobbies on the way to O'Hare (still on the road) and found an issue of North Western Lines (C&NW HS) with an article on C&NW stockcars. It concentrated on Series 15001-15499 (odd nos. only) and CMO 25701-25499, which were 36 ft cars built in 1921 and were retired en masse 1952-1954. The article also gave a brief overview of the C&NW stockcar fleet at the time, with Mather cars being leased from the mid-40s to April 1955. The Mather lease was discontinued as "new" stockcars (399 cars, 14201-14999 (odd)) rebuilt from 1927 single sheathed boxcars became available. These are the distinctive green and yellow cars that we spotted. So, making a rough guess from this information, the C&NW cars most likely seen on FW-8 c. 1950 would be either Mather cars (which would make life a lot easier with the P2K cars) or 36 ft cars, and green and yellow cars after April 1955. Now for the other western connections... Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR signal bridges Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:44:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFD5FE.3D4980E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One other consideration might make wiring easier. If you use LED's, try = using motor magnet wire for the leads. It will work for the low current = of the LED's and will be almost invisible. The hardest part is = "stripping" the insulation. Radio Shack is a source of motor magnet = wire. Hope this helps. Dennis mailto: Dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 FAX ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFD5FE.3D4980E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One other consideration might make wiring easier. If you use = LED's,=20 try using motor magnet wire for the leads. It will work for the = low=20 current of the LED's and will be almost invisible. The hardest = part is=20 "stripping" the insulation. Radio Shack is a source of motor = magnet=20 wire.

Hope this helps.

Dennis
mailto: Dennis@onerrave.com

D & S HOBBIES
http://www.onerrave.com
34 Main=20 Street
South Bound Brook, NJ 08880

(732) 271-0800     Voice
(732)=20 271-0805     FAX
------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BFD5FE.3D4980E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:41:48 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Any chance that NP cars would be seen often? (NP had a lot of stock cars) There are two choices for NP: the P2K Mather car and the distinctive Central Valley kit. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Benjamin Frank Hom wrote: > > Funny how information sometimes falls into your lap - stopped off at Des > Plaines Hobbies on the way to O'Hare (still on the road) and found an issue > of North Western Lines (C&NW HS) with an article on C&NW stockcars. It > concentrated on Series 15001-15499 (odd nos. only) and CMO 25701-25499, > which were 36 ft cars built in 1921 and were retired en masse 1952-1954. > The article also gave a brief overview of the C&NW stockcar fleet at the > time, with Mather cars being leased from the mid-40s to April 1955. The > Mather lease was discontinued as "new" stockcars (399 cars, 14201-14999 > (odd)) rebuilt from 1927 single sheathed boxcars became available. These > are the distinctive green and yellow cars that we spotted. > > So, making a rough guess from this information, the C&NW cars most likely > seen on FW-8 c. 1950 would be either Mather cars (which would make life a > lot easier with the P2K cars) or 36 ft cars, and green and yellow cars after > April 1955. > > Now for the other western connections... > > Ben Hom > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed Jun 14 13:54:39 2000 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Done Deal... Gize, Brought the book to work today and made multipul copies, any one else need a copy? Walt, you need one? And I did check and the placement of the queen post for the signals are not shown. Bummer... I will get the copies in the mail to all who have requested, today. Remember two things: These are not for reproduction for sale or resale,and... I count rivets, damnit! There are some other interesting drawings in this old $3.00 book, like a stock pen chute... HHHMMM Bowsers new cars... HHHMMM Andy, a Wooden Mail Crane? Greg Martin Still an Outlaw, wait for NMRA to reply ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:27:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 In a message dated 00-06-14 11:16:16 EDT, you write: > Bob and the List. Can any one confirm the the E8 in question is one of the > former PENNSY E8's? the 4022 was there last summer and fall. The last time I > > was in the misc. shop taking pictures was late Dec 99 and the E8 that was > there looked like the former 4022 ( ERIE, EL 833 ),no HEP, which would have > been the standby power 4022. Maybe the 4022 did go to the CSX and the 4020 ( > > PRR 5809,4309, PC 4309,Amtk 315, Amtk498 ) came to NS. > > Pat McKinney > Altoona, Pa. I thought I remember hearing that the 4022 was the one NS got. in that case, that one is the Erie 833. A far more important unit than a PRR E8. Rick Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:39:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 Rick and the List. Just returned from Juniata Misc. Shop and check on the E8. It is indeed the 4020 ex PRR 5809. Lift rings on the nose and the 4020 painted out with NS 1000 applied and small PRR under the number. This was not the engine I photographed late last summer or saw early winter, but it's there now along with CR 19 Business car and right now two other NS Business cars. Will return tomorrow for better look at the NS cars & CR19, hopefully inside. Pat ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:58:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 According to my Conrail motive power book, following are numbers and heritage of the Conrail E8s: 4020 -- Amtrak 498, Amtrak 315, PC 4309, PRR 5809A, EMD Builder Number 13102 4021 -- Amtrak 499, Amtrak 317, PC 4311, PRR 5711A, EMD Builder Number 16780 4022 -- EL (Erie) 833, EMD Builder Number 12231 Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] TRYING IT AGAIN Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:07:14 -0400 The book you are referring to is the "Pennsylvannia Railroad Standard Maintenance of Way Plans," published by the Builder's Compendium. It is page 43 & titled, "Signal Bridges for 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 Tracks. Hope you can find the book! I bought mine "used" at a train show several years ago. Obey thoughs signals, Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Long To: ; Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2000 12:25 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] TRYING IT AGAIN > Maybe someone can recall the book , it had front and end drawings of the signal > bridges in it, it showed the spacing for 1,2,3,4,5,and 6 tracks, it was green and > was titled something like: "57 drawings of right of way structures and track of > the Pennsylvania Railroad". I do remember the signal bridges. This book is a > valuable tool for modeling the right of way. Mine is packed away somewhere, and > is not handy. There was something for everyone in this book. Steve Long > > DPoole17@aol.com wrote: > > > My intention was not to open a discussion on signal bridges or look at > > pictures of signal bridges. What I need is help in locating D R A W I N G S > > of a PRR signal bridge. If I am in the wrong place, please direct me to a > > site that can help me with my request. I am looking for PRR DRAWINGS. I > > cannot build a one inch scale signal bridge out of an HO water tower and I > > don't care how many tracks the PRR ran under signal bridges. Our 8,000 foot > > one inch scale RR needs a signal bridge to control two tracks into our yards > > area and I was hoping to build one, if I get the DRAWINGS!! > > PLEASE do not misread my request. I am not critizing anyone BUT I need > > drawings, not the stuff I have been getting. You guys read the same stuff I > > read and DRAWINGS were not mentioned once. > > THANK YOU VERY MUCH in advance for any help you can offer . . . BUT I AM ONLY > > INTERESTED IN D R A W I N G S!! > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 19:23:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE << Anyone tried kit-bashing the IHC water tower bridge into a signal bridge? It matches the dimensions fairly close. I have not tried their signal bridge,but it appears to be the same as the water tower bridge. >> Actually, the IHC signal bridge is very close to a correct PRR bridge. I kitbashed three of these into two track bridges. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:29:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR] C-Liner Trainphone Parts From: Jerry Britton Lee English (Bowser, Cal-Scale) has contacted me for help. He is looking for good photos showing the C-Liner trainphone equipment. Anyone know of any? What about the recent FM book that came out? It was generic, but included some PRR stuff. Send your info either directly to me or to Lee, but if you send it to Lee, please CC it to me so I know what progress is being made. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:06:35 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR passenger car trucks Andy, list, I quoted directly out of page 1-3 of Colquitt's PRR Passenger Equipment Roster, subtitled 1 October 1954. The book may have error, but it's apparently a copy of a handwritten list of passenger cars that Colquitt transcribed. The list of cars had the trucks listed alongside the car numbers. More research is always needed on passenger cars; we can never have enough information! Doug Andy Miller wrote: > Doug, > > I believe the "Commonwealth" truck is appropriate for any of the 85 > footers you mention and also the BM70n and BM70nb. But I remain highly > skeptical that it ever appeared under any P70 class car other then the > P70fbr, D74dd, D74f and later moderizations of the Z-74. > > I fear we are stuck with the ECW truck despite its problems. Perhaps we > need someone to plead (bribe, threaten) Bachmann into making its trucks > available separately. > > BTW I think the D70 and M70 would have used a 6 wheel truck. > > Perhaps all of the cars you mention had trucks built for the PRR by > Commonwealth, but I doubt they were "Commonwealth" trucks as model RRers > know them. They were probably built to PRR designs. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > "doug.kisala" wrote: > > > > Hello list, > > > > This is in response to the discontinuance of the Roundhouse 2933 > > passenger car truck. > > > > Consider using the in stock (I just checked the Walthers Catalog) > > Roundhouse 2935 passenger truck. It's appropriate for some (but not > > necessarily all) of the following PRR passenger car classes: > > > > BD85, BM70nb, D70c, D85a, D85c, D85d, M70b, P70, P70b, P70d, P70fbr, > > P70g, P70gs, P70h, P70k, P85g, PC70, PC70b, PL85, PLB85, PLC85, POC85a > > > > My source is PRR Passenger equipment roster, 1 October 1954. > > > > I believe that the Rounhouse 2935 passenger car trucks were (in real > > life) designed by Commonwealth? > > > > Doug > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 18:26:15 -0700 Subject: [PRR] GP7/GP9 info Hi all, While attending this last PRRT&HS convention, I got a copy of the one-page handout entitled "Pennsylvania Railroad EMD GP-7 and GP-9 Data Summary" written by Jim Williams. I believe this handout was intended to accompany one of the talks given at the convention this year. It details what options individual GP-7 and GP-9 engines were equipped with, build dates, carbody cutouts (whatever that means), etc. for (seemingly) every GP-7 and GP-9 Pennsy owned. As diesels are not my area of interest, I don't really have a use for it, but tossing it out does not seem like a good thing to do, as I'm sure someone out there is just dying for this type of information. So I'm looking to give it away to a good home. Maybe someone out there didn't attend the convention and would like my copy? It's free, I'll put it in an envelope and mail it to whoever wants it, just let me know you want it and send me your postal address. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:11:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Foreign Road Stockcars on FW-8 Andy: There is a photo of a NP Pig Palace car on The Curve. It was published somewhere but I can't lay my hands on it right now. This being the case one or two NP cars is not out of the question. Don't forget that FW8 dropped and added cars at a number of locations. If you look at the schedule, it actually went to Herr's Island in Pittsburgh then back to Conway and started the next day from Conway with a pickup at Herr's Island of the stock that had been fed and watered. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:21:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Trainphone Parts Jerry: There are a number of good shots for this purpose in the FM book on pages 46 and 47. Including an over head shot. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:43:54 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signal Bridges > Walt Prusick wrote: > Greg, > As is usually the case, the obvious escapes me. Glad you posted your > suggestion to substitute brass section as hand rail and use that as my > common. I would much rather go that route than construct a complete > signal bridge of brass shapes & sections. Cut down on the time > required & expense (not to mention the frustration!) > Now if someone would/could enlighten me as to target centerline to > target centerline Horizontally, to match the track centerlines... 8)>> Vertically, 7' 0", on signal bridge Bottom unit 18" above _bottom_ signal bridge chord. (I'f I'm reading the diagram correctly..) > as well as vertical support center line to target centerline Not sure I understand. default was signal centered on mast, offset _0_? (Mast diameters variously given as 7", 6" and 5", details of signal bridge mount not real clear. The dia's above are for _ground_ mount, where more strength in mast was needed.) (I'm looking at KEYSTONE, vol 14, no 4, Dec '81... Dunno how available it is.... whole issue on Pos Lite history... Compendium of Signals had silhouette of bridge, without signals.) best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:45:41 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signal Bridges (foo. fergot to mention:) trick for stipping fine wire: fine sand paper... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:47:36 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Signals For aspect charts, try: http://ccfadm.eeg.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Signal/ among others... best dwp PC-Buff@webtv.net wrote: > > Hello Have a few questions concerning The "Bullet Signals". Could anyone > tell me why some have 7 lights on top and 5 on the bottom while some > have 7 ligts on top and 3 on the bottom slanted in either direction? > also is there a net site where I can print off the different approach > meanings? thanks > John MP > 258 Sunbury > Pa. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:00:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsylvania RR E-8 In a message dated 6/14/2000 11:54:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Unfortunately, Amtrak is pushing to have the GG-1 removed from the station. > The City of Harrisburg is fighting them on it. And the reason, if known??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:23:07 -0400 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: [PRR] PRR trailer...in Connecticut Fellow Pennsy fans, Last month I was up in New England for a week's vacation of railfanning. During the trip, I was photographing an Amtrak train on the ex-New Haven bridge over the Connecticut River at Warehouse Point, CT. As I was leaving after getting my picture, I noticed a truck trailer sitting near where I had parked the car with keystones on the rear doors. I posted a photo of it on my website at http://www.smellycat.com/jer/prrtrailer.jpg The trailer is on River Road, just a little ways south of the tracks parked next to an industry. The keystones face the road. -JWJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Lee English Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:53:43 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BFD65B.C5ABC580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry...On Pennsy Power III...there are three pictures of = C-Liners...from overhead...no quite over the top...but the angles are = pretty good. Page 329, bottom picture Page 330, bottom picture Page 331, bottom of page Now...if I could just figure out a way to get them to you. Bob Holden ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BFD65B.C5ABC580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry...On Pennsy Power III...there are = three=20 pictures of C-Liners...from overhead...no quite over the top...but the = angles=20 are pretty good.

Page 329, bottom picture

Page 330, bottom picture

Page 331, bottom of page

Now...if I could just figure out a way = to get them=20 to you.

Bob Holden
------=_NextPart_000_0064_01BFD65B.C5ABC580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 23:52:50 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] PRR trailer...in Connecticut Hi folks.... I took a look at the pic and have to say that the bottom of the sides of that trailer are in better shape than the one here in Suffolk,Va. The doors on the Suffolk trailer are in better shape though. Two bad we can't get both of them and put them together for as one nice TOFC trailer. I saw the Suffolk trailer again a few weeks back and have to say that the bottom of the sides are slowly getting worse. Except for the bottom of the sides the trailer is still in fairly good shape. I still haven't been able to find out if they would want to sell it. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 02:56:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GP7/GP9 info In a message dated 6/14/2000 9:34:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes: > carbody cutouts (whatever that means) The holes in the skirt edges under the running boards; contemporary with, and equivalent to, the "ports" in the hood of a Buick. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv & Sylvie Brice" Subject: RE: [PRR] GP7/GP9 info Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:59:23 +1000 Its a bit far to mail it to Australia - anybody like to put this on a web site for download? Viv, a Pennsy modeller from down under -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Claus Schlund Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2000 11:26 am To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] GP7/GP9 info Hi all, While attending this last PRRT&HS convention, I got a copy of the one-page handout entitled "Pennsylvania Railroad EMD GP-7 and GP-9 Data Summary" written by Jim Williams. I believe this handout was intended to accompany one of the talks given at the convention this year. It details what options individual GP-7 and GP-9 engines were equipped with, build dates, carbody cutouts (whatever that means), etc. for (seemingly) every GP-7 and GP-9 Pennsy owned. As diesels are not my area of interest, I don't really have a use for it, but tossing it out does not seem like a good thing to do, as I'm sure someone out there is just dying for this type of information. So I'm looking to give it away to a good home. Maybe someone out there didn't attend the convention and would like my copy? It's free, I'll put it in an envelope and mail it to whoever wants it, just let me know you want it and send me your postal address. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:13:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] GP7/GP9 info (ATTN Jim Williams) From: Jerry Britton On 6/15/00 4:59 AM, Viv & Sylvie Brice at (vivbrice@ozemail.com.au) wrote: > Its a bit far to mail it to Australia - anybody like to put this on a web > site for download? I believe Jim Williams, the presenter in question, is on this list. Jim, I too have a copy of your handout. Is it okay to scan and post on "Keystone Crossings" under Motive Ops? > > Viv, a Pennsy modeller from down under > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Claus > Schlund > Sent: Thursday, 15 June 2000 11:26 am > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] GP7/GP9 info > > > Hi all, > > While attending this last PRRT&HS convention, I got a copy of the one-page > handout entitled "Pennsylvania Railroad EMD GP-7 and GP-9 Data Summary" > written by Jim Williams. I believe this handout was intended to > accompany one of the talks given at the convention this year. It > details what options individual GP-7 and GP-9 engines were equipped with, > build > dates, carbody cutouts (whatever that means), etc. for (seemingly) every > GP-7 and GP-9 Pennsy owned. > > As diesels are not my area of interest, I don't really have a use for it, > but tossing it out does not seem like a good thing to do, as I'm sure > someone out there is just dying for this type of information. > So I'm looking to give it away to a good home. > Maybe someone out there didn't attend the convention and would > like my copy? It's free, I'll put it in an envelope and mail it to whoever > wants it, just let me know you want it and send me your postal address. > > - Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 06:19:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO PRR passenger car trucks From: Jerry Britton On 6/14/00 9:06 PM, doug.kisala at (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote: > I quoted directly out of page 1-3 of Colquitt's PRR Passenger Equipment > Roster, subtitled 1 October 1954. The book may have error, but it's > apparently a copy of a handwritten list of passenger cars that Colquitt > transcribed. The list of cars had the trucks listed alongside the car > numbers. He didn't transcribe it from a written list...he rekeyed an actual typed book published by the PRR in 1954. I know because I recently acquired an ORIGINAL copy on eBay!!! Unless he rekeyed incorrectly, his data comes direct from the PRR. > > More research is always needed on passenger cars; we can never have enough > information! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JWTrains@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 14:39:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7/GP-9 info.( Jim Williams ) Jerry I have no problem if you want to put the GP-7/ GP-9 information on the web. I did this and the presentation at the PRRT&HS for those like me, who are modeling PRR Geeps and those that just wanted to know the differences. Hope to have an artical on these engines in an upcomming " Keystone", so some of that information will probably be in that publication. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:04:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] AUCTION This may be a loose-thread for the "PRR", but an auction will be held at the Norfolk Southern (ex-PRR) shops at Juniata and Hollidaysburg, Pa on June 19 - 21, 2000 of surplus equipment. See: www.blackmonauctions.com and search under Upcoming Auctions for the announcement. Locomotives, Cars, wheel sets and a multitude of industrial equipment is available. Pre-auction inspection dates are included. David Seidel Altoona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:40:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE MTH currently offers a PRR 7 light mast signal - and catalogs an "O" scale two track signal bridge, for future delivery. (2000 Vol. 3) The signal looks nice and can be made operational with a "TAD" but the diameter of the signal head looks a bit large to me - scales out to about 6 1/2 to 7' What is the correct diameter: (not shown in the 57 MOW plans, as far as I could see) Is this an easy answer or is it one that involves many of those "qualifiers" Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 15:53:20 -0400 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [Fwd: [PRR] HO PRR passenger car trucks] Bob Colquitt wrote: > > For all, > The majority of info was rekeyed. The truck types were handwritten in > the original PRR book. In addition, I put all of the info into a > database & sorted twice: 1) according to what trucks went on what cars > according to class and 2) what car numbers were in each class. > --Bob > > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > On 6/14/00 9:06 PM, doug.kisala at (doug.kisala@mciworld.com) wrote: > > > > > I quoted directly out of page 1-3 of Colquitt's PRR Passenger Equipment > > > Roster, subtitled 1 October 1954. The book may have error, but it's > > > apparently a copy of a handwritten list of passenger cars that Colquitt > > > transcribed. The list of cars had the trucks listed alongside the car > > > numbers. > > > > He didn't transcribe it from a written list...he rekeyed an actual typed > > book published by the PRR in 1954. I know because I recently acquired an > > ORIGINAL copy on eBay!!! Unless he rekeyed incorrectly, his data comes > > direct from the PRR. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Steam Loco web sites Hi List, Anyone have a site or know of a site that has very basic info on steam locos? How it works and what it's components are. Thanks Mark L . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 18:21:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam Loco web sites Might want to try http://www.steamcentral.com/ or http://www.steamlocomotive.com/ If they dont have the information you are looking for..they have links to it. Regards On Thu, 15 Jun 2000, Mark Lehman wrote: > Hi List, Anyone have a site or know of a site that has very basic info >on steam locos? How it works and what it's components are. Thanks Mark >L . > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator The Blue Moon Online System - www.bluemoon.net alcoman@bluemoon.net The Railfan Network - www.Railfan.net MoonMud - telnet mud.bluemoon.net 4000 ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server - irc.bluemoon.net 6667 Homepage - alcoman.Railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 19:43:32 -0500 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] PRR Fruehauf trailers Hello list, Mont Switzer had a very nice article in the June 2000 Mainline Modeller about working with Bethlehem Car Works' SP-12 Fruehauf trailer. I know little about intermodal, since it's past my era of primary interest, but Switzer has written very well in the past. The article looks to be excellent. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:08:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Atlas N-scale SD35's for sale List. Recieved 2 SD35's that were supposed to have been canceled. 6018 & 6025. Selling for price paid. Please contact off list for price and any questions. Thanks Pat McKinney PKMac1@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:11:43 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE VVA249@aol.com wrote: > MTH currently offers a PRR 7 light mast signal - and catalogs an "O" scale > two track signal bridge, for future delivery. (2000 Vol. 3) > The signal looks nice and can be made operational with a "TAD" but the > diameter of the signal head looks a bit large to me - scales out to about 6 > 1/2 to 7' UnGood. > What is the correct diameter: (not shown in the 57 MOW plans, as far as I > could see) Keystone article shows 4' 4" (for the background) in two places. > Is this an easy answer or is it one that involves many of those "qualifiers" _everything_ involves a qualifier... 8)>> best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:44:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR] PRR SIGNAL BRIDGE In a message dated 6/15/00 3:40:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249 writes: << MTH currently offers a PRR 7 light mast signal - and catalogs an "O" scale two track signal bridge, for future delivery. (2000 Vol. 3) The signal looks nice and can be made operational with a "TAD" but the diameter of the signal head looks a bit large to me - scales out to about 6 1/2 to 7' What is the correct diameter: (not shown in the 57 MOW plans, as far as I could see) Is this an easy answer or is it one that involves many of those "qualifiers" >> I've seen the MTH bridge, but never measured it. I've also seen the prototype on the ground, and while it's big, it's certainly not THAT big! I don't know the exact measurements, but if I were to guess, I'd have to say it's about 4-5' in diameter. Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:57:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Alco FA's From: Jerry Britton Now that Life Like has announced the Proto 2000 FA1/FB1 in PRR livery -- which you'd already know if you were on the "Merchandise Announce" list -- what are the main spotting differences between the FA1/FB1 and the FA2/FB2? Both first appeared on the PRR in 1951. The FA1/FB1 were class AF15...1500 hp. The FA2/FB2 were class AF16...1600 hp. Were there visible spotting features? Or were the differences all internal? For those who weren't aware of the announcement, LL is selling A/B sets, not individual units. However, the B units are powered. There are two sets offered. They are due in September. LL also announced P1K RDC's which may interest some on this list. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:52:33 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger car height At a clinic last night at the North Shore Model RR Club we were discussing how to make AHM/IHC/Rivarossi streamlined cars run well. Not an easy task. On of the issues raised was the height of the model and and how it compared to the height of the prototype. (This issue related to changing the trucks.) No one was certain of the prototype height. We believe it was between 13 feet and 13 feet 6 inches, excluding the dome car - of course. But PRR fans always exclude the dome car ;-) Does anyone know off the top of their head what the right answer is, or do I have to look it up tonite? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco FA's Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:09:48 -0500 Jerry wrote: > what are the main spotting differences between the FA1/FB1 and the FA2/FB2? > > Were there visible spotting features? Or were the differences all internal? > Aside from the FA1 being several feet (4 if memory serves) shorter than the FA2, there are three major external differences on PRR FA's: 1. The number boards on the FA1 are small and on the side of the nose, like the F3. The FA2 has the larger bugeye style. 2. In the area between the trucks the FA1 has visible air tanks and piping while the FA2 has what looks like a big square cornered box. 3. The cooling air inlets on the side near the rear (the ones LL made movable on the FA2) are right at the rear of the carbody side on the FA1. On the FA2 these inlets are several feet ahead of the rear. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco FA's Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:25:45 -0400 > what are the main spotting differences between the FA1/FB1 and the FA2/FB2? > Jerry, The major spotting difference for me is the style of numberboard. The FA2 having the angled boards. Also the FA2 is slightly longer than the FA1, leaving a little more length behind the radiator shutters. (Which I imagine would be the best way to differentiate between the FB units.) There are a bunch of internal rearrangements, too. I'll leave that to others more familiar with the topic. Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco FA's Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:27:13 -0400 Jerry asks: >what are the main spotting differences between the FA1/FB1 and the FA2/FB2? I sure hate to get into a spotting difference discussion, but I always tell them apart by the numberboards. The FA1 had the small ones and the FA2 had larger, 45 degree boards. I know I'm going to get shot down on this one, but this is how I tell my Key models apart. Guess I better start checking prototype photos tonight. Jerry Breon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:28:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco FA's From: Jerry Britton On 6/16/00 11:09 AM, Steve Hoxie (steveh@dotstar.net) wrote: > Aside from the FA1 being several feet (4 if memory serves) shorter than the > FA2, there are three major external differences on PRR FA's: > > 1. The number boards on the FA1 are small and on the side of the nose, like > the F3. The FA2 has the larger bugeye style. > > 2. In the area between the trucks the FA1 has visible air tanks and piping > while the FA2 has what looks like a big square cornered box. > > 3. The cooling air inlets on the side near the rear (the ones LL made > movable on the FA2) are right at the rear of the carbody side on the FA1. > On the FA2 these inlets are several feet ahead of the rear. > Well, geez, guess I need to order myself a set of the FA1/FB1's, huh! I have an AB set of the Fx2's. Maybe I'll run an FA1/FB1/FB2/FA2 on a consist. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger car height Andy, According to the book "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams", the ACF, Budd and Pullman lightweight cars were all 13' 6" high from top of rail head. Those new run IHC Cars are really lousy runners. With new wheel sets, and addd weight, they still don't operate well. And try to figure coupler attachments (I heard JayBee mounting pads don't match the Kadee Coupler gauge correctly now on these new cheapy cars). I think it is time for another model company to do another series of these cars. ..... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:25:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Reminder of Free Web Hosting From: Jerry Britton Just my periodic reminder that Desktop Solutions/Merchandise Service offers free web hosting for non-commercial, railroad-related web sites. If you have significant content within a given road name/interest area, feel free to contact me for details. You'll have complete editorial control over the site, including private FTP access for updating. PRR sites may be hosted via the PENNSYRR.COM domain. All other sites would be hosted via the RAILFANCENTRAL.COM domain. I am also developing content for MODELRAILROADNEWS.NET (for dealers and manufacturers) and BRASSTRAINS.NET. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:29:28 -0700 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PRR passenger car height Andy, I just scanned through a lot of different passenger car plans of various railroads and found that most heavyweights were 14' 0 x/y" high and all the lightweights (slab side and corrugated side) were 13' 6" high. This wasn't an in-depth study, just a scan through and many had no height measurements given, so there may be some differences, but I'd say if you stick with 13' 6" for the lightweights you'll be there--again, not including the dome [what's a dome to a Pennsy fan? :-) ] Chuck Friedlein Andy Miller wrote: > At a clinic last night at the North Shore Model RR Club we were > discussing how to make AHM/IHC/Rivarossi streamlined cars run well. Not > an easy task. On of the issues raised was the height of the model and > and how it compared to the height of the prototype. (This issue related > to changing the trucks.) No one was certain of the prototype height. > We believe it was between 13 feet and 13 feet 6 inches, excluding the > dome car - of course. But PRR fans always exclude the dome car ;-) > > Does anyone know off the top of their head what the right answer is, or > do I have to look it up tonite? > > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:47:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger car height In a message dated 6/16/00 10:05:23 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << We believe it was between 13 feet and 13 feet 6 inches, excluding the dome car - of course. >> Seems to me RMC had plans a few years ago. The P-S Library book purports to have HO scale plans in it. If the paper didn't shrink or expand,they measure to 13'6" FWIW. << But PRR fans always exclude the dome car ;-)>> Funny you should mention it. Terminal Hobby Shop (Walthers) now has in stock a Budd dome car in PRR Congressional colors. Bob Zoeller Cedar Creek Central Railroad Club Jackson, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:54:20 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: [PRR] Anchor Line Hello out there, After reading the latest Keystone I was curious to find out where the Anchor Line runs. Anyone know? (or did I just miss that sentence in the article?). -Bob Vogel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen A. D'Addio" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger car height Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:49:13 -0400 Andy, et al, It depends on the type of car. You could check, "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger and Freight Car Diagrams," by Wayner Publications (1981). The range seems to be between 12'-11 13/16" and 14'-1 1/2". This is from top of rail to top center line of roof. The most common height for "modern" PRR equipment is 13'-6." Baggage, Mail, RPO's and cars with clerestory roofs are 14'-0 1/2". Regards, Steve D'Addio ----- Original Message ----- From: Andy Miller To: Passenger Car List ; Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 10:52 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger car height > > > At a clinic last night at the North Shore Model RR Club we were > discussing how to make AHM/IHC/Rivarossi streamlined cars run well. Not > an easy task. On of the issues raised was the height of the model and > and how it compared to the height of the prototype. (This issue related > to changing the trucks.) No one was certain of the prototype height. > We believe it was between 13 feet and 13 feet 6 inches, excluding the > dome car - of course. But PRR fans always exclude the dome car ;-) > > Does anyone know off the top of their head what the right answer is, or > do I have to look it up tonite? > > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RGortowski@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 22:24:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] FP20's In Chicago In the book Rail City, Chicago, USA, I saw a photo that appears to be a FM FP20 Erie-Built leading the General out of Chicago Union Station in 1949. 1. Can anyone comment on the likelihood of this being correct? 2. Has there been a modern HO brass model of the PRR FP20 (or FF20) made? If so, by which importer? ps - in the background, it appears that there are Baldwin BP20's stick out from under the trainshed. Rich Gortowski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:09:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] FP20's In Chicago In a message dated 6/16/00 9:34:10 PM Central Daylight Time, RGortowski@aol.com writes: << 1. Can anyone comment on the likelihood of this being correct? >> Why wouldn't it be correct? Are you concerned that by that time the EP20's had all the Blue Ribbon trains? You could be on the boundary timewise, but don''t forget the first of the EP22s were still a year away. Granted my pictures of FP20's in Chicago in 1948-49 are of trains with heavier headend than the likes of the General, but still I seem to remember videos of non-EMD units with the Broadway and I think the observation car was Mountain View or Tower View which didn't arrive until very early 1949. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jason Myers" Subject: [PRR] Web Page Updated Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:14:25 -0500 Hi Everyone I've up dated my web page. This is what I have added that is new. Effingham Railroad Photo's Vandalia Railroad Photo's Eastern Illinois Railroad Photo's Illinois Western Railroad Photo's Indiana Railroad Photo's PRR tower In St Elmo in 1972 And I have added other links to. If you would like me to add a link to your web page contact me off the list and I would be more than happy to. Jason Myers St Elmo Illinois CP 158 CSX STL line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jason Myers" Subject: [PRR] Web Page addy Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 00:17:00 -0500 Sorry I forgot to add the web page address. http://jasonstrainpics.homestead.com/ Jason Myers St Elmo Illinois CP 158 CSX STL line ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] X29 Drawings Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:20:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BFD845.BA69C460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I was hoping that someone has PRR Engineering drawings for the standard X-29, more specifically, the General Arrangement drawings for the 1924 and 1928 design car bodies. I have searched the Pennsylvania State Archives Disc and they do not show them listed. I would be willing to buy, borrow or trade for these drawings. I have a good collection of other PRR drawings and 500 4 x 5 copy negatives of PRR Builders photos that are mostly freight cars. I have a slight sense of urgency here. Please reply to billlane@snip.net with what X-29 drawings you have. Thank You Bill ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BFD845.BA69C460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

I was hoping that someone has PRR Engineering drawings for the = standard X-29, more specifically, the General Arrangement drawings for the 1924 = and 1928 design car bodies. I have searched the Pennsylvania State Archives Disc = and they do not show them listed. I would be willing to buy, borrow or trade for = these drawings. I have a good collection of other PRR drawings and 500 4 x 5 = copy negatives of PRR Builders photos that are mostly freight cars. I have a = slight sense of urgency here. Please reply to billlane@snip.net with what X-29 drawings you have.

Thank You

Bill

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BFD845.BA69C460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:20:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] X29 Drawings Hi All, I was hoping that someone has PRR Engineering drawings for the standard X-29, more specifically, the General Arrangement drawings for the 1924 and 1928 design car bodies. I have searched the Pennsylvania State Archives Disc and they do not show them listed. I would be willing to buy, borrow or trade for these drawings. I have a good collection of other PRR drawings and 500 4 x 5 copy negatives of PRR Builders photos that are mostly freight cars. I have a slight sense of urgency here. Please reply to billlane@snip.net with what X-29 drawings you have. Thank You Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Failed tests, classes skipped, forgotten locker combinations. Remember the good 'ol days http://click.egroups.com/1/5531/7/_/586931/_/961261336/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Shelb68man@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 15:01:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-FAs Spotting differences FA-1 / FA-2 Jerry, Another feature I've found to be different between the FA1 & FA2 is the style of the trainphone antennas. On the FA1, the antenna wires come down each side of the front winshield and enter the nose just above the side number boards. On the FA2 the left antenna travels down the left side of the nose about 2' in front of the side windows. The right antenna stops just in front of the 1st antenna support. Anybody know why the difference in styles? Charlie C. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 19:46:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] THANKS Thanks to all of you who aided me in my quest for PRR signal-bridge drawings. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] PK1 FF-16 (aka - C-Liner) Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:39:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BFD8A4.8E0399A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read the PK1 Canadian Pacific C-Liner review in the June MR and it = states that Life Like's pre-production run of the locomotive included a = small window behind the cab door. It also said it corrected this = inaccurate feature for the production run because it was not on the '53 = - '54 deliveries of the C-Liner to Canadian Pacific. Is this window on = the PRR version? I believe PRR had versions delivered in '51 - '52 so = it should be there. I haven't been out much lately so I haven't even = seen of the FF-16 up close and personal. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BFD8A4.8E0399A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I read the PK1 Canadian Pacific C-Liner = review in=20 the June MR and it states that Life Like's pre-production run of = the=20 locomotive included a small window behind the cab door. It = also said=20 it corrected this inaccurate feature for the production run because it = was not=20 on the '53 - '54 deliveries of the C-Liner to Canadian Pacific. Is = this=20 window on the PRR version? I believe PRR had versions delivered in = '51 -=20 '52 so it should be there. I haven't been out much lately so I = haven't=20 even seen of the FF-16 up close and = personal.
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BFD8A4.8E0399A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:46:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PK1 FF-16 (aka - C-Liner) On Sat, 17 Jun 2000, Kris Kollar wrote: > I read the PK1 Canadian Pacific C-Liner review in the June MR and it P1K maybe? ;-) > states that Life Like's pre-production run of the locomotive included a > small window behind the cab door. It also said it corrected this > inaccurate feature for the production run because it was not on the '53 > - '54 deliveries of the C-Liner to Canadian Pacific. Is this window on > the PRR version? I believe PRR had versions delivered in '51 - '52 so > it should be there. I haven't been out much lately so I haven't even > seen of the FF-16 up close and personal. It's there; I have all 3 numbers and I just checked all 3. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "m mcm" Subject: Re: [PRR] Alco FA's Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 09:35:41 -0400 For O scale fans, Weaver makes a very good FA-2; you have to install brass castings for dynamic brakes and the induction trainphone antennae. It is available either 2-rail or high-rail (are there any other 2-railers left in the world other than me?::::chuckle) Mike Tronetti ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rail Classics" Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: F-38 Flat Car Project Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 05:46:32 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Rail Classics [mailto:railclassics@psn.net] Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2000 6:19 PM Subject: F-38 Flat Car Project Hello List; We at Rail Classics (www.railclassics.com) are importing the PRR F-38 Heavy Duty Flat Car in "HO Scale Brass. We have had many requests to also import the F-38 painted and lettered for Penn Central and Conrail. If the needed data for PC and Conrail can be secured, we will import them also. What we need is the road numbers the PC and Conrail assigned to them, also the paint & lettering diagrams and any photos that are available in PC and Conrail paint.. Thank You, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 10:14:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi E-8 From: Fred G Rea I have a pair of Rivarossi PRR E-8s, a powered and a dummy. They have turned out to be an ideal choice for mounting my " Choochoocam" video camera and transmitter. The problem is, of course, the large flanges and a motor that does jack rabbit starts. Does anyone know of a source of replacement wheel sets and/or motor? I could make the powered unit a dummy. The units were frecently purchased as "close outs" from IHC and were made in Slovenia. The flanges are OK on my layout with Code 83 rail. However, they would be a blast on a friend's layout with working PRR position light signals. But, the flanges won't work with his code 70 rail. Yes, I am a bit off topic, but the video system works great! The excellent picture gives a whole new perspective of a layout. The only problem is the transmitter, not the camera, is a bit big, and the E-8s are the only thing I could find with space to hide it. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:00:32 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] work train pullmans Hello All... Anyone know which or how many former PRR-Pullman work train cars still exist? Either in museums,for Amtrak or Conrail- NS form.(I imagine in NS form they won't be around long). I know of almost 40 former PRR Pullmans (work train service and non-work train service that are still in existance in one form or another and am trying to see if there are any that i might not know of. Thanks Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:15:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] work train pullmans Hank, Several years ago while checking out the Ohio Central RR, there is a place along the roadside, (forgot the town name outside of Coschocto, Ohio) that has several (3 or 4?) passenger cars and I believe an outside braced boxcar, possibly an X-23. Anyway the passenger cars included several PRR cars if not all. If I remember correctly 1 of them was the famous MATCHLESS heavyweight Pullman. They are on display and owned by a fellow who purchased them awhile ago. Maybe someone else is more familiar with the location...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDGbuff@webtv.net (FrancisinSunbury) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] work train pullmans There are a number of them on Route 15 at White Deer in central Pennsylvania. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 15:35:52 -0400 (EDT) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Delmarva-Little Creek update Hello all... I made a trip out to the former end of the PRR Delmarva operation. (now known as Eastern shore RR's Little Creek yard.) I took lots of pictures and notes. There are three pullmans in the yard. One is a former PRR car "Haselton"(not Hazelton as i formerly thought). The car appears to be a plan 2410 12-1 sleeper. There is a very faded sticker which mentions ownership as being by the "Tidewater chapter" "NRHS". There was no evidence this car was used in work train service. (i.e. windows covered,smoke jacks,yellow paint). It also appears the car either never had A.C. or very little A.C. equipment as there were no Ice boxes or roof duct work on this car.You can make out all the PRR lettering and painted over lettering on this car.Maybe PRR sold it off early on. Another car was a former NW camp car. this car looked to be a former 14-1 car.(NS No 521408) Another was a former NW diner..also a former camp car.This one was numbered NW 564361. There were four baggage cars there. One was a former Southern 70 ft. car with end doors. Painted black with a silver roof. Another one was also about 70 ft. long,but painted green (similar to army green) with no markings..i'm guessing a C of G,ACL or Seaboard car. The last two were N&W 60 ft cars No's 1401 and 1424. These two appear to be built to the PRR's B-60 (not B-60a or B-60b) design,including PRR design 4-wheel trucks. They have a 2 panel,door,3 panel,door,then 2 panel side design. There also is a former NW streamlined coach on the same track as the baggage cars. There were some other cars and equipment too. There were three gondola cars,one of which appeared to be a former PRR G-22 class car.(the others might have been former southern cars) Also the three PRR-PC-Conrail H-39 hoppers are still there. Theres also a former either NW or Sou cabin car and a modified boxcar next to the engine house. A former Army FM switcher is on the far side of the yard. Some box cars which appear to be used as idlers for the carfloat and a Eastern Shore tank car were there too. Plasser American had some equipment sitting on the far side of the yard. NS had a few larger gons and hoppers either sitting on a industrial siding or lined up for it on the east side of the yard.(ES has a on line customer there.) The old engine house is still painted green,but the old grey underneath is now showing thru. The carfloat apron seems to have had some recent work done to it and was in good shape from what i saw. The tracks on the far side(away from the road) are lone gone.(this was the classification area at one time.) there are about 6 or 7 yard tracks still in use. The car scale is still there...and appears to be still in use. (makes sense with a carfloat). I have some pics of some of the passenger cars in JPG format if anyone wants to see them. Have fun Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:02:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] work train pullmans In a message dated 00-06-18 11:25:43 EDT, you write: > Hank, > > Several years ago while checking out the Ohio Central RR, there is a > place along the roadside, (forgot the town name outside of Coschocto, > Ohio) that has several (3 or 4?) passenger cars and I believe an outside > braced boxcar, possibly an X-23. Anyway the passenger cars included > several PRR cars if not all. If I remember correctly 1 of them was the > famous MATCHLESS heavyweight Pullman. They are on display and owned by a > fellow who purchased them awhile ago. Maybe someone else is more > familiar with the location...Gary > Are you talkingabout the cars with the freight car trucks that have been converted into gift shops? Rick P.S. What is the significance with the MATCHLESS? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 17:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] work train pullmans Rick, Could very well be the same. When we were there it didn't look like anything was in them. You mention freight trucks. Can't remember that feature. I have photos some were I will try to locate. What town is that? Route #?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!