From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 06:58:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR vs. P. Co. Al,. I[ve been making this point for years. Go into the financial pages 90 years ago and you won't find a reference to the PFtW&CRWCO or the Fort Wayne System. All refenence to the co0mpany operating train s over these lines iis the Pennsylvania Co., shortened to P Co. in somepapers headline styles. LIke wise the financialpages don't mention Pittsburgh, Ciincinnati, Chicago & SSt. Louiis RR Co. or the PCC&StLRRCo.Associated Press sstyle applied to thisroad would have Paahandle Route on first reference cut to Pnahandle on all subsequent references. Everything slse but Pennsylvannia Co andthe Panhandle arerailfan construcitons. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LINESWEST@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:23:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on P.Co. vs. PRR (long) /Dan, To amplify my last posT, the primary financial pages I refer to are those in the New York Times. The P Co./Pennsylvania Co. and Panhande Route were trade names like Milwaukee Road, Cotton Belt and Frisco When I write histoRY, which I'm doing more and more, I try to be as histiorically accurate as possible.As one writing buddy and much mmore accomplished author than I says, "Why do the research if ya aiin't gonna do it right. If the informatiion isn;t accuraate, it's nmeaningless." Just call me a littkle anal on this. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 05:40:13 -0700 Usually, if a train were sold out, you found other accomodations. However, if there was enough demand, the train would run in several sections. The NYC once ran the 20th Century Limited in 7 sections in the 1920's. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 4:35 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger train question >In reading it appears that nearly all trains had fixed consists. Did the PRR >ever vary train consists? For example, the Broadway Limited was app. 8 cars. >If one nights demand exceeded the accomadations available would they add cars >or turn away business? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:47:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question If the Pennsy wanted the business bad enough, they would have either added cars to the Broadway Limited or operate the train in two or more sections as New York Central did the Century, which often ran as many as six sections during heavy travel periods. Turning away business would have made the railroad look bad in the public's eyes and the Pennsy was concerned about its image with the public and wanted to maintain a good image. Accommodating the travel demand as best as the railroad could was a key to this. Other railroads might have gotten away with it, but a railroad as well-known as the Pennsylvania would have been left with one hell of a black eye. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:59:47 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Modeling Chris, >After a drought of PRR articles in the model railroad press we have a >bonanza. We had the L1 article, the I1 in Feb MR, the GSh gondola >article in RMC, and now the March MR arrives and there on the cover is >an O scale Horseshoe Curve Layout with a K$ working upgrade and 2 hippos >drifting down. Well, you would think that the K4 was working up and the I-1s drifting down, but one of the compromises that Mr. Rappe made was the reversal of the grade...and the direction of traffic...thus, those hippos are really WESTBOUND, going uphill. We all make choices, and he is obviously not completely happy with his as the article states that his next layout will have the curve in the correct orientation. I personally find reorientation of known geographical features to be very jarring. >The article opens with a 5 column photo showing a J, two >K4's (one in 1940 streamline) and an I1 on the curve. Ed Rappe of Va. >is the modeler. Almost makes you want to go into O scale(if your not >already in it). The modeling is spectacular, and one photo shows very nicely how a shelf layout need only be barely wide enough for the tracks, with very nicely painted backdrops. Also to be commended is the attempt to model each locomotive on a specific prorotype! Of course, 1500 sq feet is a nice layout space, but it does make you wonder what he could have done in Ken McCorry's space ... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:02:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 Nose As I've said, I've not seen pictures of a T1 with a door cut in the side of the smokebox, but this could be interpreted as a quick and dirty way to avoid unbolting the nose of an early T1 to get at the smokebox faster. That is the conclusion that I have come to after much thought. The door is on the left side behind the nose handrail and is very plain once you know it is there. It dawned on me that since there is no external latch mechanism for the door there is no external latch mechanism for the swing away sheet metal nose necesitating some shop guy to wiggle his way into the nose to unbolt it. I would never make it at my size! No wonder shop forces hated streamlining. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 10:41:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Adding cars or adding sections to a train were both used. Consists also varied by day of the week and season. In the case of the Broadway where on-time service was of paramount importance and therefore ability to maintain speed was also important, sections would be added rather than cars. The Broadway was designed to run with K4s locomotives at top speed. Additional weight would have severely hampered the ability to meet the "advertised". So sections would have been added. Other less time sensitive trains would have had minimum number of cars added. Again if the ability to maintain schedule was hampered sections would be added. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 11:14:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: 1950s industries in Allegheny County Many thanks to Derrick Brashear, Ron Dugas, Vagel Keller, Brian Brooks, Kevin Trichtinger, Rich Orr, Elden Gatewood, and Mark Evans for their help with the Allegheny County industries question recently. (They are now enjoying the latest release of our State of Pennsylvania industries database.) This is such a helpful news group. Thanks to you guys, and to all the others who share information here. Lee Rainey 6009 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 12:13:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question In a message dated 02/01/2000 6:49:17 AM Central Standard Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Usually, if a train were sold out, you found other accomodations. However, if there was enough demand, the train would run in several sections. The NYC once ran the 20th Century Limited in 7 sections in the 1920's. >> I wonder if, in the Pennsy's case, specifically for the Broadway, they didn't just steer the customer to the General, leaving an hour earlier, I believe (my CRS disease is rampant this morning and I am at work so can't check). My understanding was that they kept the General a top train to meet the Central competition, the Central having ordered enough sets of the Century to run two sections consistently. I am talking about the lightweight era, now. I have always thought of the General informally as the "Advance Broadway". The above thoughts only apply to unpredicted traffic upsurges; holidays and such would involve extra cars and sections, if need be. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:10:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Curious Question!!! List, I have several last questions concerning the model of the PRR HH-1, the x-N&W Y-3. The LifeLike Proto 2000 model came with molded on Roanoke Builders plates. I removed these with the intention of replacing them with the common PRR Oval Builders Plates that were used when the Pennsy made the make over to the HH-1 class. I am still in the search mode for HO scale builders plates for the HH-1. I thought Schukyill Division made some but evidently not. There may have been HH-1 builders plates made by the late John Stewert. These came in a sheet of brass etched plates. The sheet contained various class loco plates. Does anyone on this list have a sheet of these and are willing to part with the 2 HH-1 plates? I also have this question on my question list and it also concerns the HH-1 builders plates. As we know this loco was built in the N&W's Roanoke Shops. When the Pennsy replaced those builders plates with the PRR Oval builders plates, did the Pennsy cast in the Roanoke Shops words again or did they cast in Altoona or Juniata Shops? My guess is Altoona Shops. Any comments? Thanks,....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 14:57:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Regarding the HH-1 and it's builders plates. Why would the PRR bother to change the plates ? Is there any proof that they did ? Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 15:13:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Ken, A little correction on my part here but my question still stands. I stated that the Y3's were Roanoke built. They were not, they were built by Alco. As delivered the Y3 had the rectangular Alco builders plate. Just as the Proo 2000 model. When seen in Pennsy service they are seen with the Oval PRR plate. There are plenty of photos in PP3 that show this. Pages 78 and 79. That is part of my question, WHY would the PRR change it if the PRR didn't build it? Another little typo in my orignal post. I said Altoona Shops instead of Altoona Works....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:00:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! In a message dated 02/01/2000 2:09:56 PM Central Standard Time, KEMACPRR@aol.com writes: << Regarding the HH-1 and it's builders plates. Why would the PRR bother to change the plates ? Is there any proof that they did ? >> According to the NJ International book on the USRA 2-8-8-2s, 5 of the Pennsy units were built by Alco (rectangular plate) and one by Baldwin (round plate). I guess by S. Holmes inductive reasoning, one could conclude that the oval plates in the photos were Altoona plates. The Altoona plates would have had the PRR class on them--don't know what else was on them. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:13:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General The question of fixed consists, and therefore fixed capacity, is indeed an interesting operational question. I recall the late 50's and early 60's, when my family was still making our twice annual journeys from Minnepolis to Philley. By then there were enough of us that there was no way for my dad's mailman salary to pay for Pullman, but coachs had better veiwing, so as a young railfan I certainly didn't mind. The train of choice was the General, a fine train that even carried a COACH observation, as I recall. Seems like about half the summer trips were always a bit up in the air, as the train was often sold out, leaving the much inferior Admiral as the default accomodation. That train's later departure also necessitated a lot longer lay over in Chicago, turning a twenty three hour trip into more like 27 or 28 hours. Every time the reservations filled out there'd be a few days of mild anxiety while the Pennsy debated over adding another coach or turning away the business, but almost every time the old home town railroad would come up with another P85. Good thing, too, as more than once the General would stage a race with the NYC out of Englewood, ala Broadway/20th Century. Our EP22's must have been faster, as I clearly recall a pair of really hard working two-tone grey Central passenger geeps gradually being passed. Another time I was awake too early, wandered into the Baltimore coach and ran up against the folding gate, watching the rest of the train getting smaller . Luckily that car got shoved back and a kindly crewman led me back to the "Philadelphia" cars. Kinda scary when you're ten or twelve. Good days back then for passenger trains. Amtrak sure ain't the same. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:28:12 EST Subject: Re: [ldsig] Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General In a message dated 02/01/2000 3:18:41 PM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << The train of choice was the General, a fine train that even carried a COACH observation, as I recall >> Sounds right. Before 1948, no observation. After 1948, while it was all-Pullman, it had the Pullman observation off the 1938 Broadway, skirts and all. In the time era you mention, it was probably merged with the Trailblazer and had its coach observation. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:30:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General It was late 1967 when the General was combined with the Broadway into a coach-Pullman train adopting the Broadway name, but using the G eneral's numbers. As for Amtrak, we should be grateful that there are passenger trains at all. The very same Congress that gave these huge subsidies to the railroads" competitors seem to want to destroy what is left. They were well on their way to destroying the railroad industry in the 1970s. No wonder our transportation is all screwed up. T he airways are overburdened with too many planes and the highways too congested. Shift a substantial portion of this passenger and freight traffic back on to the trains and much of the problem is solved. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:39:53 EST Subject: Re: [ldsig] Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General The General was combined with the Broadway in late 1967 and adopted the Broadway name but retained its train numbers, thus making the Broadway a coach-pullman train. This after an earlier combination with the Trailblazer. It was one of several remaining trains on the New York-Chicago run, the others being the Pennsylvania and Manhattan Limiteds. The Admiral was a New York to St. Louis train, but may have had a Chicago section for a time. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 17:04:26 EST Subject: Re: [ldsig] Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question/ the General Thanks for the reply Jim, but far as I know the Admiral was always a Chicago train, and even carried West Coast through cars for a spell. Looking at a 1952 Guide, it had a San Francisco 10-6 that alternated between C&NW-UP-SP and Q/D&RGW/WP. (That would have been between the Cal Zephyr and Frisco Overland).Westbounf that car ran on the PA LTD. Perhaps you're thinking of the American? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:17:23 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question List: Perhaps this is not a good thing to bring up, but... I recall reading that the "Broadway" was always a lesser used train than the "20th Century," and that periodically during steam days there was talk of discontinuing this expensive vanity operation. If so, there would have been little reason to worry about second sections except on rare occasions. True or false? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 19:59:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! In a message dated 2/1/00 1:24:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << When the Pennsy replaced those builders plates with the PRR Oval builders plates, did the Pennsy cast No direct knowledge but my guess would be that they cast in the original builder's name and the original builder's sequence numbers Why did they do it and why do I think they did it this way? Because that's what they did with every other engine on the premises - Like U.P.S. they refused to have builders ads on the engines - No square round or diamond plates, only PRR oval Here's a follow up question: when the Pennsy sold an engine did they remove the ovals ? Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:25:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Dick, A good place to check to see if the Pennsy removed their plates before selling off the locos is the 2-8-2's they sold to ATSF and Lehigh ???? and the 4-4-2's that went to the Monongehelia RR. I remember seeing photos of a 2-8-2 in ATSF but can't recall where. Hopefully the builders plate is visble in those photos. Not to get to far off my original posting but check out page 117 of Pennsy Power 3. There is an N2sa with 3, count them, 3 builders plates. I see an Alco. PRR and another possibly saying Brooks. I assume the 2 were removed later and only the Pennsy Oval remaining.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:32:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Part 2 Dick, Here is a quick answer to your part of the question. I found a photo of an x-PRR K-3 that was sold to the N&W as #500. It shows the PRR Oval plate still attached and no other plates visible. The picture is in the book, Norfolk & Western Steam, The last 25 years.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 21:12:47 EST Subject: [PRR] THE BIG RED SUBWAY One of my favorite "Trains" articles of all times was by John Barringer "The professional iconoclast" when he wrote the one pager, inside the back cover, He talked about riding trains during WW 2 - Out of New York the NYC would run scheduled trains - perhaps several sections - but would tell folks "that's it - come back tomorrow" The Pennsy, dispatched train after train and it seemed like the crowd on the platform never diminished. The station crews kept telling the paying customers, as a matter of pride, "be patient we won't leave anyone behind" kept pulling equipment out of the coach yards. It might be an old commuter car, he wrote, or a Jim Crow coach purloined from a southern line or even a converted box car with rattan seats but everyone rode - some who couldn't wait sat on their suitcases and duffel bags...... This tradition continued even into the 1960's Returning to Ohio from Christmas break in my College days - When snow closed all the airports from Denver to New York I thought I'd be stuck in Chicago, for sure. The PRR kept adding cars and locomotives to outbound trains and before I knew it I was on a "College Car" an old "tourist" Pullman that reeked like a museum - opened only on Saturdays, but I was on my way, through the blizzard and the darkness, back to Alliance, Ohio. (Mount Union College) One of my seatmates "beefed" about the low head room and the knee to knee seating - I explained that it was a Pullman car. One of the girls had some sort of tools with her skis and we soon found that the mattresses were still in place, in the overhead and, in less time than it takes to tell about it, we'd made up all the bunks (no linen, of course) and were sleeping two to each single bed. The Conductor smiled and shook his head at the ingenuity of the "kids" -"I probably should charge you extra" he joked "who's idea was this?" When I fessed up and told him that my Grandfather was a PRR Conductor, he was very nice - he probably thought he'd have trouble with us. It was probably the greatest train ride of my life - I spent the night curled up with a very nice young woman who got off the train, mid morning, in Ada, Ohio (Ohio Northern University) Wish there was more to it than that, I never saw her again.... If anyone is wondering if anything else happened - remember that this was the 1960's, the Pullman curtains were long gone - and the steam lines were barely reaching our car, at the end of the train (We were all wearing almost everything we had ! ) Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 16:18:06 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] To Font, or Not to Font, That is the Question Greetings to Rick, Fred, and the List: Have been reading the discussion of font/typeface and thought it might be pertinent to note the origin of the word "font" and its relationship to this topic. As someone who's old enough to have actually worked at a newspaper that used hot lead (actually an alloy, I believe) in production, the word -- and its usage as described by Fred B. -- makes sense to me. In linotype operation, metal was melted and forced into molds of each individual letter of a headline, story, caption, or whatever, to cool. This had to be done for everything that was printed in a newspaper (or book, magazine, or whatever). Because the liquefied metal was injected, the process was like a fountain -- which is the English translation of the French word font (just as mountain is the equivalent of mont). When the metal cooled and solidified and created an entire stack of lines of type cast to a given column width, they were taken to the next step in the process -- page composition. And there were several more steps in production beyond that that are beyond our topic here. It all seems like chisel-and-stone technology to us now that millions of people have laser or inkjet printers sitting on their desks. But back then, thousands of newspapers and many thousands more job shops did business this way every day, edition after edition. Think of the immense amount of hot metal it would take to put out a Sunday New York Times. After each day's newspaper was completed, the type was melted down and the process started all over again the next day. In the newspaper setting, we would look at galley proofs -- a paper impression taken of the line of just-cast type -- and mark corrections. If something was amiss such as an italic letter where it wasn't supposed to be, or a bold letter that was supposed to be normal weight, we'd circle it and send it back to the composing room with the notation "WF" -- for Wrong Font. There wasn't an equivalent Wrong Typeface notation, -- we'd simply write the name of the correct typeface -- Bodoni Bold, etc. Perhaps because of having seen the printing/composition process firsthand, I've always felt that the word "font" did not properly describe what we see when we describe or discuss the lettering on, say, the side of a P70. <=obligatory PRR content. By the way, when I observed the fonts being cast in the composing room, it was often while I was on my way to the rear window of the Harrisburg Patriot-News to check out which GG1s were parked outside at the west end of Harrisburg station.<=obligatory PRR content #2 in case #1 was not enough. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com John 10:10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:38:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question In a message dated 2/2/00 9:33:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << I'm also curious as to why this would be: psychologically, why did people prefer the Century to the Broadway? The Broadway was considered a "Philadelphia" train by New Yorkers - the psychology was that by going to Philadelphia FIRST - they were actually going out of their way, EVEN THOUGH the Pennsy route was actually many miles shorter. New Yorkers invented the concept of "the flyover zone" even before they flew, regularly. REMEMBER also the Philadelphia executives who named the train were not overly sensitive to the "New Yawkers" either .The train was originally "The Broad Way Limited" - named for the beautiful broad way which ran through the "Main Line" suburbs of Philadelphia - it was only later that it occurred to them that there was a street in Manhatten, by that name. ALSO - there was that thing about "The Waterlevel Route - you can sleep" The Central Trains actually had to move faster, to make the same schedule, but the Pennsy had to keep adding locomotives all the way to Altoona to blast the trains up over the Curve. It would have been great fun for a rail fan, but not for a businessman who wanted to sleep - And FINALLY the Central trip began with the beautiful scenery up the Hudson - the Pennsy trip began by going "down the tubes" The daylight portion of the trip was very heavy on the Marshes (Swamps) Mills and burning garbage dumps of "The Garden State" I suppose there are some beautiful spots in New Jersey, but few, if any are visible from the Pennsy Main Line.... That's what you get when you offer a nut and bolt guy an opportunity to do "Psychology" - Dick Ross Cleveland Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] To Font, or Not to Font, That is the Question Date: Wed, 2 Feb 100 17:02:29 -0500 (EST) Dan Cupper scribit: > Because the liquefied metal was > injected, the process was like a fountain -- which is the English translation of > the French word font (just as mountain is the equivalent of mont). This got me thinking. I had looked it up once before, and frankly, what I really need is the OED [== Oxford English Dictionary] entries, which I cannot get on-line, but which I've asked a friend to get for me. Nonetheless. Stating that fountain was the English translation of a French word font struck me as incorrect. Those who know me may know that I'm a bit of a student of French and English, including the linguistic history of both, and to a lesser extent, a student of German as well. But I'm rambling once again. My Petit Larousse confirms that English "fountain" == French "fountaine" (feminine). Lines Westerners (whether born-and-bred or adopted) may know of Bellefontaine (Ohio), which is a Big Place on the NYC (CCC&StL) and thus does not get me the PRR content I need for this post. My recollection (which awaits confirmation via OED) is that English "font" is an archaic equivalent of "fountain" which, nevertheless, is still rarely used in lay speech: "a font of knowledge", etc. Its use among movable-type printers, I would argue, would fall under the category of trade-specific speech, which is a whole different animal. I can provide several examples of words from the medical side which, in the medical writing, have retained an older sense/meaning, whereas their lay use is something quite different: embarassment, insult, compromise, toilet (as in "good pulmonary toilet"). Most intriguing, however, is the next entry in my dictionary: fonte ... f[eminine]: melting; smelting; casting; thawing [neige [snow]]; cast iron; fount (typogr.) So it looks like fonte --> font AND fontaine --> fountain --> font ... a process not unknown in English, though not one that consistently produces a matching _spelling_ in addition to the matching _pronunciation_. Since I cannot find any other PRR content to include, let me just say that I stand now only 2 diagrams away from completing the Chicago-area interlocking diagrams. The Panhandle page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_log_chi_main.html is little changed; however, the Fort Wayne page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_ftw_chi_main.html has had wholesale replacements of the diagrams refereced thereon, the old noisy diagrams having been very substantially cleaned up; and finally, the Chicago branches page at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_chi_branch.html has had many new diagrams added and much better documentation added, for which I have Andre Kristopans, Richard Wallis, Al Buchan, and Bob Poortinga to thank, as well as John Cooper for doing the first (and major) map cleanup work. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:15:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Y-3 Speaking of the Proto 2000 Y-3 does anyone know of a source that still has any to purchase??? Harold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:54:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question In a message dated 00-02-01 08:00:11 EST, GenJim833@aol.com writes: << Turning away business would have made the railroad look bad in the public's eyes >> But, in those days, patrons seeking space on a sold-out Broadway wouldn't be "turned away" in the sense that they would be today on Amtrak's one-train-per-day schedules. They would just be directed to the General, which ran within an hour of the Broadway. I believe that the PRR seldom, if ever, ran following sections of the Broadway after the streamlined equipment came. And I sometimes wonder what the trip was like for those who rode 4th and 5th sections of the 20th Century. No barbershop, probably no observation car, certainly lots of yellow signals due to the previous section closely ahead. It might even be enough to induce the passenger to try Penn Station the next time! Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:06:29 -0600 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Re: HH1 Actually yes the bean counters require equipment ID's but so did the ICC for several reasons, esp. if the equipment is on an "equipment trust", which the bulk of RR equipment was. And don't sell those roundhouse asnd hostlers sort, they know a lot about equipment, nmore thasn you might think. When I was an Asst Supt on ATSF, the night hostler could practically tell you where the iron ore was mined to make the cylinder liners ! Very informed group, cause it was their BUTT if the train didn't make it out the door, over the prairie and up the mountain! They were also a very superstious group, for example, they always followed the belief that with multiple units, "good lead in.....good lead out.", even if it meant a few minuted to turn that lead unit. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:38:31 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Part 3 Ted and the list, I can only offer generalities, but the K3s class was built for Lines West and tended to stay there at least until WWII, when the 25 engines remaining (five were sold to N&W in 1930 as Gary has posted) could be found on the former Lines East as well. Aside from the 5 engines sold, the class remained intact until December, 1946, when 8391 was scrapped. Attrition thereafter was rapid; K3s 7149 was the last K3s on the roster; she was sold for scrap in October 1949. I have not yet seen a picture of a K3s on my New York and Long Branch, but I have seen pictures of the sister K2s class on the LIRR (about as far east as you can get) and on the New York and Long Branch. I would hesitate to rule out any branches or mail lines, at least during the WWII period. The sister K2s/K2sa class was far more numerous, and could be found systemwide throughout their lives. Naturally, some were assigned to Lines East and Lines West at birth. Doug "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > PRR Gize: > > I have a question regarding this interesting engine. Where did these engines > typically operate on the Pennsy? I am assuming around the Pittsburgh/Wierton > area and maybe the Columbus, Ohio area. Did these engines venture out to > Chicago or get on the Elmira Branch? Does anyone have thoughts on this? > Thank you in advance! > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > -----Original Message----- > From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:32 PM > To: VVA249@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Curious Question!!! Part 2 > > Dick, > > Here is a quick answer to your part of the question. I found a photo > of an x-PRR K-3 that was sold to the N&W as #500. It shows the PRR Oval > plate still attached and no other plates visible. The picture is in the > book, Norfolk & Western Steam, The last 25 years.......Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 19:17:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Folks, The Broadway vs the Century was always a fascinating duel, largely a matter of ego from the Pennsy perspective. From what I've gathered the NYC always had the edge on Chi-NY traffic, though being a Pennsy guy with Philley roots I could never understand why. Certainly the fact that the Central had a Manhatten terminal long before the PRR had to be a factor. So too did the fact that NYC was a "flashier" and more flamboyant operator than the Pennsy, which was always considered a bit blue collar and very conservative. Remember when Broadway (the stage center, not the LTD) had a long running play called, of course, "20th Century Limited" (or something like that). Poor Pennsy tried to counter with a rather good B movie, the "Broadway Limited", which was good for railfans if not to the critics. Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. And there was a very real rivalry between New York and Philley in the equation. And if the NYC was regarded as being more fashionable, who in hell is more image conscious than the "sophisticates" of New York? Funny this topic should come up just after I was reflecting on how appealing the gritty brick industrial cities always seemed to me. What could be more flavorful than a Baldwin switcher lumbering along a brick-paved street enroute to some grimey industry? (Well, you don't really have to answer that.) Throw in the smell of anthracite wafting from someone's row house chimney on a chilley gray day, anticipation of a new Honeymooners or Lucy episode on the tube later, maybe an Ortliebs or two, and how could anyone prefer the 20th Century? Water Level Route? Sounds like an overflowing bathtub to me. Next stop, North Philadelphia ("our only stop in Philadelphia....") Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:18:48 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Modeling I just got my copy of the latest MR today, and all I can say is WOW! The layout is outstanding, and in O scale no less. Makes one wonder, just how many fine PRR layouts are out there that we never hear of. Larry Christopher Chany wrote: > Listers, > > After a drought of PRR articles in the model railroad press we have a > bonanza. We had the L1 article, the I1 in Feb MR, the GSh gondola > article in RMC, and now the March MR arrives and there on the cover is > an O scale Horseshoe Curve Layout with a K$ working upgrade and 2 hippos > drifting down. The article opens with a 5 column photo showing a J, two > K4's (one in 1940 streamline) and an I1 on the curve. Ed Rappe of Va. > is the modeler. Almost makes you want to go into O scale(if your not > already in it). > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:50:10 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Y-3 Bill and the List, At the risk of starting a flame war, I feel that the Lifelike Y-3's benefit is more to the hobby in general than to PRR modellers. Here is a superbly crafted and smooth running steam locomotive that several railroads used. In years past, we would have had to pay for brass to get this level of detail out of the box. I will leave the value issue alone; I recently cheerfully paid $300 for a tiny (by comparison) brass H6sb because I felt I couldn't live without one. Any engine will be a bargain to some, and outrageously overpriced to others. Anyway, quality sells, and there can never be enough good engines on the market. As far as the PRR goes, the engines did get the road through the WWII years. As a collector of engines, I can appreciate the addition to one's collection of a rare PRR articulated. At the same time, I agree with Bill that some other PRR prototype would probably grab my attention faster. Now that I have my H6sb, I'd love to see an affordable B6sb in any scale (I model in HO), or a resin boiler for a K2s/K2sa/K3s pacific to mount on a Bowser chassis. Bill Lane wrote: > I don't really understand what all the chat is about in reference to the new > HO Y-3 is. Admittedly, I am not a HO modeler, so I am not sharing in the > excitement. My question is, what is the big deal ? It was not a significant > PRR locomotive. They were a second hand purchase of a small number that did > not make into the 1950's. I could understand and maybe be a little envious > if a great plastic K-4, M-1 or I-1 was produced. I just don't get it. Just > my opinion... > > Bill > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:26:40 EST Subject: [PRR] ENGINE NUMBERS - RULE OF THUMB A good "rule of thumb" for all PRR locos built prior to 1920: Numbers up to 5000 were built for service east of Pittsburgh - numbers over 5000 were built for Lines west, and there were specific series for PFtW&C, C&P CA&C etc. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Spray Booth Expert Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 22:49:20 -0500 Sorry about that!! I was as surprised as ( I am sure), the list was to see my Email to a client sent as a cc to PRR-Talk. The assistant editor of Products Finishing Magazine (in which my monthly column appears), who was the intended recipient, is one line above PRR-Talk in my address book. The cause of the mistake is either the innate perversity of inanimate objects, old-timers disease or my fat fingers. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 02:01:01 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Y-3 --On Mit, 2. Feb 2000 19:50 -0600 "doug.kisala" wrote: > At the same time, I agree ... that some other PRR prototype would > probably grab my attention faster. Now that I have my H6sb, I'd love to see > an affordable B6sb in any scale (I model in HO), or a resin boiler for a > K2s/K2sa/K3s pacific to mount on a Bowser chassis. Alas, we seem doomed to depend upon the Bowser line for our affordable Pennsy modeling needs (in HO, at any rate). I'm not a collector, but a user. Therefore, I was very happy when Sunset came out with its minimalist, yet nice running H6sb for under $250 at about the time when Railworks was importing its criminally insane (albeit beautifully detailed) $695 D16. Would that some enterprising person would put together a deal that put PRR engines of the quality of the Bachmann and/or Life-Like releases on the market here. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:27:28 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR HH-1 378 Builder Plate In a message dated 2/1/2000 1:24:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I also have this question on my question list and it also concerns the HH-1 builders plates. As we know this loco was built in the N&W's Roanoke Shops. When the Pennsy replaced those builders plates with the PRR Oval builders plates, did the Pennsy cast in the Roanoke Shops words again or did they cast in Altoona or Juniata Shops? My guess is Altoona Shops. Any comments? Thanks,....Gary >> Well, Gary, I was going to guess it would show Roanoke as the true shop of origin, just as Baldwin-built K4s ovals say "Baldwin" on them -- or at least, the one we sold from the Jack Fravert collection did. But then I remembered that I have a print of HH-1 378. This shot was taken by R.J.Foster at Columbus OH on 4-7-46, enlarged/printed by C.T.Felstead, and sold to me by John Lueke of Como Shops at Bandana Square, St. Paul MN. I can't read the entire plate, but it is clear that the top wraparound lettering says "NORFOLK & WESTERN". It's possible that the straight line underneath that (but above the large HH-1) says "ROANOKE", but I'm less sure. The wraparound at the bottom looks like standard date-and-builder-number data, but I can't resolve those characters in this small an image. The engine looks to be alongside the soutwest corner of the Columbus roundhouse (I could be wrong here), and as this HH-1 thread has pointed out, has a footboard pilot, spoked pony wheels, low un-PRR-looking headlight, a Keystone 378 number plate centered on the smokebox door, and a "forehead bell". The oval plate is the only one visible in this leftside shot. Farther back, the characteristic N&W/USRA-style cab and tender with visible fishbelly side sill belie the "PENNSYLVANIA" across the tender side. BTW, from this angle you can see that the keystone number plate has the triangular stud arrangement. Unsurprisingly, all the number plates I've seen from PRR and N&W have these mounting studs in an 11" equilateral triangle, which of course (if universally true) made switching an engine from N&W to PRR dead easy. Aside from this subject, my understanding is that John Lueke of Como Shops is recovering from a heart attack. Should you contact him, convey my best regards for a speedy recovery. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:41:32 -0500 To the metallurgists on the list. I'm scratch building some parts for the K4 I'm working on. I want to make mounting straps for the air tanks under the running boards. I have lots of the correct diameter tube but its aluminum. My question is not so much can I solder brass to the aluminum (I'll figure that out on my own) more importantly if this process works will the metals react with each other over time and corrode. Kinda like the problem that occurred on Statue of Liberty with the iron bar frame work reacting with the copper skin (I know there is a name for it but it escapes me at the time). My bolts would get really torqued if I did this work and in six months after I completed the job little bubbles of corrosion and pitting started to form. Also can aluminum be soldered to aluminum? My alternative is to go out and buy some brass tube but that would require another trip back to the distant hobby shop. Any wisdom would be much appreciated ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:00:06 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] ENGINE NUMBERS - RULE OF THUMB and 6500's for the VERY far east NYP&N engines that were renumbered into the PRR. JimMcDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 100 09:15:11 -0500 (EST) Kollar, Kris scribit: > To the metallurgists on the list. I'm scratch building some parts for the > K4 I'm working on. I want to make mounting straps for the air tanks under > the running boards. I have lots of the correct diameter tube but its > aluminum. My question is not so much can I solder brass to the aluminum > (I'll figure that out on my own) more importantly if this process works will > the metals react with each other over time and corrode. Kinda like the > problem that occurred on Statue of Liberty with the iron bar frame work > reacting with the copper skin (I know there is a name for it but it escapes > me at the time). My bolts would get really torqued if I did this work and > in six months after I completed the job little bubbles of corrosion and > pitting started to form. I'm not a metallurgist, but a chemist (undergrad); I have a partial answer. Yes, the metals will react. This happens any time 2 metals with different reduction potentials touch. The standard reduction potential for aluminum: Al(3+) + 3 e- <==> Al(s) -1.677 V Brass is, of course, an alloy of copper and zinc (bronze is copper and tin), so it has no single reduction potential. Cu(2+) + 2 e- <==> Cu(s) 0.339 Zn(2+) + 2 e- <==> Zn(s) -0.762 Thus, copper tends to give up electrons, Al and Zn to receive them. Whatever copper oxidizes (from natual processes) will give up electrons to Al (which wants them more badly) and Zn. Yes, they will corrode: both on their own, and in addition to the dissimilar metals problem. You're familiar with brass rail corroding, and if you've ever swept your hand along anything aluminum after it's been sitting a while, and seen the dark grey stuff on your hand, you've seen aluminum oxide. BUT the real question is: is this severe enough to cause a problem? Unfortunately, I can't help you on this. I suspect the answer is that it won't matter, because none of these 3 elements oxidize destructively: i.e. their "rust" does not flake off, like iron oxide does. But best to find out from someone who's actually done it. (But also see below.) > Also can aluminum be soldered to aluminum? Very difficult, according to several metal shop friends of mine. Most metal shops don't even carry the stuff and equipment needed to do it. (IIRC, very high temperatures are also required.) > My alternative is to go out and buy some brass tube but that would require > another trip back to the distant hobby shop. This would be my recommendation. Brass solders/braizes much more easily. Oh, BTW, the reduction potentials were not simply pulled out of my head. They were right here on my bookshelf. Harris, Daniel C. _Quantitative Chemical Analysis_, 4th ed. New York: W. H. Freeman and Co., 1982, pp. AP33-AP41 (Appendix H). Doctor Dan was a professor of mine in college till he got pissed off at the politics of academics, moved back to California, and went off into industry; one of the few people to survive a private plane crash. My year he taught from galley proofs of this book, which I helped proofread. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 100 09:24:26 -0500 (EST) PRRMAN@aol.com scribit: > And I sometimes wonder what the trip was like for those who > rode 4th and 5th sections of the 20th Century. No barbershop, > probably no observation car, certainly lots of yellow signals due > to the previous section closely ahead. It might even be enough > to induce the passenger to try Penn Station the next time! Ignorant question: Were additional sections run ahead or behind the name train, or both, or did it depend on the RR and/or the day or circumstances? (Can you tell I'm not old enough to remember intercity passenger trains run by anyone but Amtrak?) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:39:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR HH-1 378 Builder Plate Rick, Thanks for that additional info. I would have never guessed that the words NORFOLK & WESTERN would appear on that builders plate for this reason. The Locos were actually built at Alco Locomotive works. I would assume, (if normal practice) the Alco Shops name (whichever site) appeared on the plate. Oh well, If you can read that plate then that is what was cast on it. (Off Topic) Just a note on the Keystones. Concerning our emails several weeks ago about the K4 Keystone Number Plates, I recieved my K4s #958 plate the other day. It arrived safely thru the mail. The restoration of it is very good. The guy I purchased this from did the work and used real 22k gold leaf paint for the numbers and trim. The three studs appear to be the full 4 inch in length. Evidently this Keystone was removed by unbolting it from the K instead of the normal torching. I am well pleased with the purchase. Again, thanks for the info on the HH-1 buliders plate and the Keystones....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:03:25 -0500 Kris: There is a low temperature aluminum welding rod available through Sears, Montgomery Ward etc. for fusing aluminum. I've used it on the farm to repair tent poles, folding furniture etc. The demonstrations I have seen at the store always use this stuff to repair holes in beer cans. :-) It's cheap and can be worked with a standard propane torch and its own flux, but falls under the "gimmick" domain since the welds are rather brittle and easily broken. The aluminum mower deck I repaired rebroke easily. It would be perfect for low impact work like modeling. A friend of mine uses it to fasten his aluminum garden railway track together. Aluminum and brass cannot be soldered together, since they each have a different type of molecule and will resist coupling or bonding with the solder. (I will avoid the disertation on face centered molecules etc.) Electrolysis, or bi-metalic corrosion is actually the least of your concerns. Your best bet with material at hand is to use ACC or epoxy for your bond. Make good, clean, oxide free joints and the chemical fastener will hold different metals very well for a long time. With careful temperature control, even a baked on paint finish can be accomplished. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Kollar, Kris To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 7:46 AM Subject: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) >To the metallurgists on the list. I'm scratch building some parts for the >K4 I'm working on. I want to make mounting straps for the air tanks under >the running boards. I have lots of the correct diameter tube but its >aluminum. My question is not so much can I solder brass to the aluminum >(I'll figure that out on my own) more importantly if this process works will >the metals react with each other over time and corrode. Kinda like the >problem that occurred on Statue of Liberty with the iron bar frame work >reacting with the copper skin (I know there is a name for it but it escapes >me at the time). My bolts would get really torqued if I did this work and >in six months after I completed the job little bubbles of corrosion and >pitting started to form. > >Also can aluminum be soldered to aluminum? > >My alternative is to go out and buy some brass tube but that would require >another trip back to the distant hobby shop. > >Any wisdom would be much appreciated > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:13:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main Line" making it the choice of those residents? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:18:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) I think I would super glue the two and I wouldn't clean the oxide off the aluminum. IT is a very pwoerful insulator thus minimizing the problem. An alternative would be epoxy so that the metals don't come in contact with each other at all and a lot easier than soldering. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:38:28 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [PRR] Branchline PRR 50' car #'s Greetings from NH (There's snow for skiing and life is much quieter since all the pols and satellite trucks have left)! I have picked up three of the Branchline PRR cars, each with a different #. Anyone know how many different #'s they issued?? Thanks. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:58:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline PRR 50' car #'s From: Jerry Britton On 2/3/00 10:38 AM, Tom Mahon (tmahon@cfnh.com) wrote: > Greetings from NH (There's snow for skiing and life is much quieter > since all the pols and satellite trucks have left)! > > I have picked up three of the Branchline PRR cars, each with a different > #. Anyone know how many different #'s they issued?? Four. The single car had a separate number from the three-pack which was three additional numbers. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:03:49 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline PRR 50' car #'s Tom Mahon wrote: > Greetings from NH (There's snow for skiing and life is much quieter > since all the pols and satellite trucks have left)! > > I have picked up three of the Branchline PRR cars, each with a different > #. Anyone know how many different #'s they issued?? > Tom: I believe you have them all! Larry > Thanks. > > Tom Mahon > Merrimack, NH > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:04:29 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. So a connection to the Broadway was available. There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the Century at Harmon. I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a "Broadway"! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, > apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. > > Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main Line" > making it the choice of those residents? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:27:20 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/03/00 >> NYC seemed to get more Hollywood publicity, including Cary >> Grant being seduced (or as much as was allowed in those days) by Eva Marie >> Saint to join her in her room on the Century in the movie North by >> Norhtwest. > >And in the last scene, returned from Chicago to NY on the Santa Fe!! >Hollywood struck again. > >Andy Miller ==== Naw, that was just a case of mega-merger mania! :-}> Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:38:32 -0500 Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! (purchased by non-purists no doubt) I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. my 2 cents worth... Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:04 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. So a connection to the Broadway was available. There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the Century at Harmon. I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a "Broadway"! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, > apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. > > Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main Line" > making it the choice of those residents? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:55:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works From: Jerry Britton Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? A few months back the same thing occured about the PRR version of the C-Liners. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What is the source of this info? Any word on ETA's of either of the above? The new Bethlehem Car Works 40' PRR TrucTrain Trailers are now available for order via Merchandise Service. This is an unpainted resin model with decals. It is an outside-ribbed trailer with curb-side door. (Thanks to Ken McCorry for tipping me off that it had been released.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:00:06 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Regards, The Scioto Valley Model RR Club in Columbus OH has a (vague) model scene of the Horseshoe curve. Not wanting to spend the bucks on a Bachmann or Bowser K4, the loco in the park is a Monogram J3 Hudson lettered for the PRR as I recall! Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass > models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, > resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi > lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! > (purchased by non-purists no doubt) > > I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. > > my 2 cents worth... > > Ted Andrews -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Jerry Britton wrote: > A few months back the same thing occured about the PRR version of the > C-Liners. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What > is the source of this info? A hobby shop site in Germany has part numbers already. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:18:04 -0500 Jerry and the list: I have a question about the Bethlehem Car Works PRR Truc Train trailer. Is the trailer a solid resin model or is it hollow? When fully built and placed on a 75' or 86' flatcar, would the trailer tend to make the faltcar top heavy? Just curious.... Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:55 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? A few months back the same thing occured about the PRR version of the C-Liners. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What is the source of this info? Any word on ETA's of either of the above? The new Bethlehem Car Works 40' PRR TrucTrain Trailers are now available for order via Merchandise Service. This is an unpainted resin model with decals. It is an outside-ribbed trailer with curb-side door. (Thanks to Ken McCorry for tipping me off that it had been released.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:16:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works The trailer is hollow with a seperate floor. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:35:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question In terms of multiple sections of a given train, generally, only the first section would make all of the scheduled stops as per timetable schedule, the second section would make some stops and skip others and so on down the line. Each section would be assigned a set of stops that it would make and some would run express between more distant stops. I believe that is how the Central operated the Century and other trains operated in multiple sections. Only the first section made all the stops. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:41:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question It is true that the Pennsy has the edge on books and I happen to be working on one about the Standard Railroad of the World in its f inal years of independence. I can always use photos of diesel passenger and freight trains from around the system. Does any one have any extras I might be able to buy or swap some timetables for? Jim Mancuso 56B S. Main St. Perry, NY 14530 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:43:04 -0500 Ken: Thank you for the information. I am now off to build TT-1! Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: KEMACPRR@aol.com [mailto:KEMACPRR@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 2:17 PM To: Ted.Andrews@woolpert.com Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works The trailer is hollow with a seperate floor. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:42:43 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: Sections (was:PRR passenger train question) No wonder there were so many collisions between sections! Would the subsequent, non-stop, sections quickly overtake the all-stops, first section? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== GenJim833@aol.com wrote: > > In terms of multiple sections of a given train, generally, only the first > section would make all of the scheduled stops as per timetable schedule, the > second section would make some stops and skip others and so on down the line. > Each section would be assigned a set of stops that it would make and some > would run express between more distant stops. I believe that is how the > Central operated the Century and other trains operated in multiple sections. > Only the first section made all the stops. > > Jim Mancuso > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:51:07 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Jerry asked: >Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like >will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, >there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing >it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? 2 pieces of evidence, both from Life-Like 1) In the booklet that comes with the Y-3, LL discusses that they will contribute a portion of the proceeds to each historical society of the roads being offered, and the PRRT&HS is listed 2) In my undec version, all the spare parts for the different versions are included, and there is a KEYSTONE number plate! All in all, pretty solid evidence eh? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:59:21 -0500 And I believe a lot more PRR steam engines were saved than NYC, too! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted To: 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:44 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass >models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, >resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > >I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. > >my 2 cents worth... > >Ted Andrews > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] >Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:04 AM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question > > >The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way >to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. >So a connection to the Broadway was available. > >There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. >Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at >Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the >Century at Harmon. > >I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that >battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I >delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while >the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a >"Broadway"! > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >=================================================== >NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >> >> Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, >> apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. >> >> Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main >Line" >> making it the choice of those residents? >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >-- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian Brooks" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:08:34 -0500 Let's not forget to mention that the PRR has 'em beat on the Internet, too! Brian -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted To: 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:36 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass >models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for plastic, >resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > >I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. > >my 2 cents worth... > >Ted Andrews > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:15:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Jerry, If I remember correctly the C-Liners are a LifeLike Proto of Canada project. I believe it has little to do with the US market hence no public announcment on LifeLikes US site. Although when I visited a Canadian website (Don't remeber what the url is) the PRR version is the 3rd on the list to be released behind the 2 Canadian Roads. I also believe there will be a PRR version of the HH-1 released as well. In fact, they went as far as placing a Keystone Number Plate in the extra parts bag of the released undecorated locos. I also read on a discussion group that LifeLike left 2 voids in the list of stock numbers. Could this be for the future PRR version as well as the D&RGW version? I have heard rumors that the PRR version will be released next year. Maybe that is why LifeLike did not announce it yet. Hell, I don't even think the USRA 0-8-0 is announced on ther page yet but everyone seems to know that is the next Proto 2000 Steam project. The new "rumor" has it that the next Steamer after that will be a run of the Lima Super Power Berkshires. All in the form of NKP, PM, W&LE and C&O. I was kinda leaning towards some nice Challengers. Only time will tell on what will be released... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:36:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works In a message dated 2/3/00 3:05:29 PM Mountain Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << 2) In my undec version, all the spare parts for the different versions are included, and there is a KEYSTONE number plate! All in all, pretty solid evidence eh? >> I would say that that above all seals the deal. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:37:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works In a message dated 02/03/2000 11:08:48 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? >> VERY VERY broad hints from LifeLike at their booth at the Chicagoland Hobby Show in October. However, it could be a while. They operate on a 2-year window. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:57:23 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Close call? List: We should extend condolences to our Milwaukee Road-fan brethren--they lost a freight station last night in downtown Chicago. Of course, I did not know it was their's and not ours until I got downtown, only that an old brick freight depot had burned alongside Metra tracks. (Seems like it delayed quite a few trains in the process, too.) What worried me, of course, was the fact that an old Pan Handle freight station stood close by, diagonally across the joint north approach tracks to CUS about one block west at Peoria Street, and the news story I saw briefly on my way in this morning was not clear on which building burned. Fortunately for us, it was their's. But condolences are still in order--it was a fine old station that was destroyed at Union Street. Something that ran through my mind at the time was: what if? Who will help me try to save the molded concrete Keystone built into the Pan Handle freight station's gabled end should there ever be a similar disaster? Or is that a ridiculous pipedream? The Keystone contains the legend "Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh-freight station," and should be on display somewhere at "Lewistown." The station--I've had the pleasure of being inside it--is red brick with slate roof, and a wooden-trussed roof support inside that has a bazillion turnbuckled rods keeping it tight. Given the Keystone and its inscription, I would guess it to date from the 1890s or 1900s. Certainly, it is newer than the former Chicago, St. Louis & Pittsburgh freight station about a third-mile further east at Canal Street, which dates from 1884. Anyway, forgive this ramble. And remember, we dodged a preservationist's bullet last night. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 15:07:57 -0800 Jerry, any chance of putting a photo of one of these up on your "Merchandise" web site? What's your judgement as to the accuracy/quality of the decals? What PRR number series are these trailers? Thanks. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA >The new Bethlehem Car Works 40' PRR TrucTrain Trailers are now available for >order via Merchandise Service. This is an unpainted resin model with decals. >It is an outside-ribbed trailer with curb-side door. (Thanks to Ken McCorry >for tipping me off that it had been released.) >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:51:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like / Bethlehem Car Works As far as the decals go, Curt La Rue of the PRR Cinncinatti group helped Bethlehem Car Works with the prototype info and color/information. Better help could not of been found and probably doesn't exist. Included on the decal set are 4 trailer heralds two each of the different size circular Truc Train discs. Excelsior leasing decals. 5 PRRZ and numerous number combinations. This is a set that PRR Truc Train modelers have been waiting for years to come out. I am proud to have been one of the instigators of this project as it turned out far better than I would have ever invisioned. Enjoy, Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:59:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Close call? Richard, Who owns the Panhandle station? Is it abandoned? Could it be preserved intact? Are there any pictures of it on the net? Rick Rowlands ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 19:40:37 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question Mark, The first set of equipment in sequence would have to be the "first section." Carrying green signals indicates a following section, not the specific section. The lack of green signals indicates that no more sections will follow. It would thus be disastrous to omit signals on an intermediate section unless the fact were protected by orders or established sighal policy. If one section runs around another, they are required to exchange signals and orders with each other - NY Central, 1937, Rule 85: "...A section may pass and run ahead of another section of the same schedule, first exchanging train orders, signals, and numbers with the section to be passed. The change in sections must be reported from the next available point of communications." Designation of engines as to their respective sections, as well as providing for the change of their relative positions, was also addressed in train order Forms. BTW, and definitely FWIW, Hungerford's very wordy _The Run of 20th Century_ states that all sections were "complete" as to diners, lounges, etc., with no reduction in amenities being allowed. Even taken with a grain of salt, this seems reasonable given the status of the train in times past. Hungerford also stated that the last section made any intermediate stops. Regarding another post on following sections "running on yellow signals," at some point the Central apparently was strongly in favor of following engineers holding back a block with their following train so they could run at track speed on green signals rather than attempt to illegally make the same speed on yellow signals, with the very definite possibility of rear-ending an unexpectedly delayed or stopped train. Steve Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question From: "Mark Bej" Date: Thu, 3 Feb 100 09:24:26 -0500 (EST) PRRMAN@aol.com scribit: > And I sometimes wonder what the trip was like for those who > rode 4th and 5th sections of the 20th Century. No barbershop, > probably no observation car, certainly lots of yellow signals due > to the previous section closely ahead. It might even be enough > to induce the passenger to try Penn Station the next time! Ignorant question: Were additional sections run ahead or behind the name train, or both, or did it depend on the RR and/or the day or circumstances? (Can you tell I'm not old enough to remember intercity passenger trains run by anyone but Amtrak?) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:16:10 -0700 Guys, ConCor did exactly this in N scale and it actually sold! Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- >...I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:20:02 -0700 No thanks to "big" Al Perleman. No wonder he got the nickname "butcher boy of the San Juans". (for those of you not in the know, Al Perleman was with the D&RGW before he went onto "bigger and better things"...and guess what...NO standard gauge steamers were saved by the Grande.) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bigler To: Andrews, Ted ; 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >And I believe a lot more PRR steam engines were saved than NYC, too! > >Bill Bigler >Big Flats NY >Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andrews, Ted >To: 'Andy Miller' ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > >Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:44 AM >Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question > > >>Also, the Pennsy has won the modeling war. There are by far more PRR brass >>models (second hand or new) than the Central. The same is true for >plastic, >>resin, or metal models. I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >>lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >>(purchased by non-purists no doubt) >> >>I think that the PRR has an edge on books and other publications. >> >>my 2 cents worth... >> >>Ted Andrews >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] >>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:04 AM >>To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >>Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question >> >> >>The NH had several trains a day which serviced Penn Station on their way >>to Washington; the Senator, the Colonial, and the Patriot come to mind. >>So a connection to the Broadway was available. >> >>There are upper class New York City suburbs in New Jersey as well. >>Residents of Montclair and the Oranges would find catching the B'way at >>Newark as convenient as people along the Hudson would find catching the >>Century at Harmon. >> >>I think it was a matter of image marketing, and the Central won that >>battle with the name and the red carpet and all the other gimmicks. I >>delight, now, in telling my New York Central modeling friends that while >>the 20th Century is now (or soon will be) gone, there will always be a >>"Broadway"! >> >>Regards, >> >>Andy Miller >>asmiller@mitre.org >> >>=================================================== >>NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: >>> >>> Then again, the New Haven traffic fed mostly into Grand Central, >>> apparently more than offsetting the Long Island trade. >>> >>> Also, wouldn't the NYC have served the equivalent of the New York "Main >>Line" >>> making it the choice of those residents? >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >>-- >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:26:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Releases... Jerry, I too have heard from a very reliable resource that there will be a second version of the Y-3(a) released in the near future. I believe it! You could have heard that LIFE LIKE OF CANADA was releasing the FM CFA-16-44's from me or perhaps read my Scuttle Butt column in Mainline Modeler in December, because I first announced it the week following the National Model and Hobby Show (MRIA) in Chicago, IL this past fall. I have seen the test shots and they are beautiful. Again they will be released in Canada first followed by a limited release through the Baltimore office. Jerry, you are a small retailer and need to keep in touch with Nolan Null personally to make sure you get your share and don't loose out like the Y-3's. Again these will be very limited production, in the Proto 1000 series, NO B UNITS, NO 5 axle variants. Anyone wishing more details Email me direct off line! Jerry again for the benefit of your customers, contact Nolan Null and make him your primary contact, you have a good following of loyal customers here and Nolan needs to know that. I know him well, with that being said, bug him, bug him, bug him.... Greg Martin Jerry Britton writes: << Over the past few weeks, it has been reported on this list that Life Like will be doing the Pennsy version (Class HH-1) of its N&W steamer. However, there is no word of this version on their web site, nor is Walthers showing it as an announced product. What is the basis for this claim? A few months back the same thing occurred about the PRR version of the C-liner. No word from Life Like, yet it is rumored to be in the works. What is the source of this info? Any word on ETA's of either of the above?>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: [PRR] Kato follies... Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 18:23:42 -0700 Guys, I am on a regular e-mail list from ECMR, and today I got the following message from Al...thought I would pass it on. Nice to know that the "wonderful" folks at Kato think so much of their customers. Dear Friends, In the past we have filled virtually every Kato reservation in both N and HO Scale. Limited Production is normal for Kato, but with this GP35 release I must ask these people why bother??? I want to be honest and up front. I may have to ration or even cut some orders. I am working feverishly to secure as many as I can so everyone gets what they wanted. I will notify you as soon as possible if there are cuts. I apologoze for this. Never in a million years would I think that Kato would produce so little of something, I mean this is ridiculous. One distributor, and a very prominent one, told me he has 16 of each number to sell to 250 accounts. I would guess 240 smaller accounts will get zero. Way to go Kato!! If you are thinking of calling Kato, save your time and money. I did for years and they do things their way, and are not interested in anyones advice or suggestions. Please stand by, I hope to bring everyone better news in my next update. Best Regards, Al Nice guys...wanna bet that it will be a cold day in Hell before I again purchase one of Kato's items? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 00:01:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question In a message dated 00-02-02 13:47:11 EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Or wannabes. NYC seemed to get more Hollywood publicity, including Cary Grant being seduced (or as much as was allowed in those days) by Eva Marie Saint to join her in her room on the Century jin the movie North by Norhtwest. Almost revived train travel for a while :-). The advertising ploy of the red carpet at Grand Central and La Salle Stree didn't hurt the image. >> Beebe's book "20th Century" (I'm almost ashamed to say I own it---at $8.95 it must have been some youthful indiscretion!) thoroughly discusses the excellent advertising/publicity machine which the NYC had. They kept up an unending stream of publicity which caused the 20th Century to have a glitzy, star-studded aura which no PRR train ever had. Most of the passengers who opted for the Century over the Broadway probably were just hoping to see a movie star. In terms of actual performance and amenities, the trains were equal. Remember "The Sting"? The onboard high-stakes card game, with the conductor holding and tallying the bets for the Chicago gangsters, had to be on the Century. That kinda stuff wouldn't have been permitted on "our train"! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 07:34:13 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Hudson? >... I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >(purchased by non-purists no doubt) We should be very careful about this sort of thing. Considering what Ravioli has done to that locomotive - C&O, Milwaukee Road, Santa Fe - they might just do it. It's a wonder that the UP 4-8-4 hasn't come out as NYC and D&H - after all, they all had elephant ears, and the Niagara had a centipede tank. What we really need is for them to bring out a plastic J1... Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 15:02:29 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Releases... TGREGMRTN@aol.com schrieb: > Jerry, > > I too have heard from a very reliable resource that there will be a second > version of the Y-3(a) released in the near future. I believe it! > Hi folks, just received a almost sensational news from Nuremberg Toy Fair, opened yesterday: Roco announced the Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 in a special release, as: Santa Fe, Roco-item # 63351 N&W, Roco-item # 63350 They don´t tell where the models are built, but explicitely mention a versioin offered by Life Like for the US-market (probably the release now almost sold out), and name some changes to the version offered by Roco for the European market: - Wheelsets slightly changed to match also NEM-standards - NEM-coupler-boxes (there is, of course, the Kadee for NEM...) The picture in their new folder looks great, and very much like the Proto 2000 photos. See also: "News 2000" on the Roco-website: http://www.roco.co.at/index.htm The co-operation with Life Like is rather astonishing, because up to now some selected Proto 2000 items were supplied through the German company Brawa, and not by Roco. However, Brawa announces again some Life Like models: RDC-2 (B&O, Amtrak, WP) USRA 0-8-0 (CB&Q, NYC, SR) SD-60 GP-9 (GN, UP) Alco FA-1/FB-1 (GN, NH, UP, MoPac, Frisco, LV, Rock Island) More under: http://www.brawa.de/neuheit/us.htm Roco also re-releases a FP-7 in UP-colours, now for the European market. Maybe more will come... I will keep you informed of any other news I can get from Nuremberg! Burkhard ---- Dr. Burkhard Sanner Lahnau Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:17:13 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Passenger train question In a message dated 00-02-02 13:47:11 EST, Bobspf@aol.com writes: Remember "The Sting"? The onboard high stakes card game, with the conductor holding and tallying the bets for the Chicago gangsters, had to be on the Century. That kinda stuff wouldn't have been permitted on "our train"! -------- Yeh, that's why my Dad, a Circulation Department employee for the Camden (NJ) Courier-Post, could always tell us where the high stakes games were in Atlantic City, especially during the summer when the race track was open. All they did was legalize what was rampant in AC when they allowed casinos. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:43:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Source For Bachmann Spectrum at up to 50% Off! From: Jerry Britton I normally only make sales posts to the Merchandise Announce list, but this one is too good to not share with all... One of our distributors is having an inventory reduction sale on Bachmann Spectrum products. There are limited quantities and we cannot guarantee delivery on all orders, but the savings are substantial: 30-50% off! PRR items include the 44 ton switcher, heavyweight passenger cars, and many other locos. Other roadnames are available but not listed in the eStore. If you are looking for a non-PRR roadname, e-mail us for availability. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:22:02 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Close call? BigHookX45@aol.com wrote: > Richard, > > Who owns the Panhandle station? The Peoria street freighthouse--the one with the molded Keystone--is presently owned by an individual who used it briefly as a weekend flea market site. The west end of the building has an addition which was constructed sometime after the station passed from railroad ownership. (Using my fuzzy memory here: I believe the PRR consolidated all of its several freight facilities in the early 1920s into the massive complex once located south of Union Station.) BTW--I was told the building was used for a while as a slaughtering house. The older P.H. freighthouse--the 1884 CStL&P one--is owned for offices by the Braun Bottle Co. who keep it in good condition. This building is brick, and curved; occupying the inner part of the tight CUS approach tracks curve between Clinton and Canal Sts, partially under the C&NW viaduct. > Is it abandoned? Could it be preserved > intact? Are there any pictures of it on the net? You got me on that one. Let me know if you find 'em. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:45:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Trip to Cleveland I'm driving my wife and daughter to Cleveland next week for the US Figure Skating Championships. Any suggestions on good winter railfanning locations and hobby shops to visit? I'd also be interested in visiting layouts, operating or not, and getting together with fans of the Pennsylvania, NYC, and NKP. And yes, I will be driving a front-wheel drive and carrying a snow shovel. Lovely weather we're having! Rick Tipton Louisville, KY Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone (8am to 8pm please) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trip to Cleveland Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:01:34 -0500 Rick: If you like electric operations, I would suggest taking a round trip ride on the rapid transit and getting off at each station to look around. Trains are fast and frequent, the passenger platforms are elevated and the trackage and stuff around the mainline are worth looking at. The overhead is really neat and begs to be modeled. The Shaker Heights division is just like a trolley operation and doesn't motivate me as well. The main yards are really impressive too. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 10:53 AM Subject: [PRR] Trip to Cleveland >I'm driving my wife and daughter to Cleveland next week for the US Figure >Skating Championships. Any suggestions on good winter railfanning locations >and hobby shops to visit? I'd also be interested in visiting layouts, >operating or not, and getting together with fans of the Pennsylvania, NYC, >and NKP. > >And yes, I will be driving a front-wheel drive and carrying a snow shovel. >Lovely weather we're having! > > >Rick Tipton >Louisville, KY >Email RickTipton@aol.com >Phone (8am to 8pm please) > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:48:57 -0500 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] ENGINE NUMBERS - RULE OF THUMB VVA249@aol.com wrote: > A good "rule of thumb" for all PRR locos built prior to 1920: Numbers up > to 5000 were built for service east of Pittsburgh - numbers over 5000 were > built for Lines west, and there were specific series for PFtW&C, C&P CA&C etc. Actually, the dividing point was 7000, not 5000. The full list is given on pages 15 to 17 of "Keystone Steam & Electric". Ignoring the earlier uses of the numbers, the system right before 1920 was: locomotives owned by PRR were numbered below 4000; those owned by Lines East subsidiaries were numbered between 4000 and 7000; and those owned by Lines West subs were numbered above 7000. As stated, each owner had their own specific series. Bob Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 12:00:55 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Rumors www.onerrave.com caused me some excitement with the following news and/or rumors: - C&BT X29Bs are due out in February (hey thats this month -isn't it?) They have a foto of a lettered test shot of the body. It will come with Red Caboose ladders and grabs! - Someone (unnamed) is resurrecting the old Middle Division P85b project!! I hope this isn't another of those internet legends like the stolen kidneys and the Nieman Marcus cookie recipe. - LL P2K (or P1K) is considering 85' Budd streamliners - a Congo maybe? please please -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vastano,Sam" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Hudson? Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:47:23 -0500 Hi Group, I have to throw my 2 cents worth into this conversation. About 5 years ago I probably would have bought one. Only because I was ignorant that manufactures would make anything and put PRR on the side if it. I didn't know anybetter. But after being educated by the PRR Talk group and many books I have come to realize that we can get screwed big time if we don't complain about the quality of the products that the manufacturer puts out. Just my 2 cents Sam Vastano -----Original Message----- From: Pat Egan To: PRR-Talk Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:45 AM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Hudson? >>... I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi >>lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! >>(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > >We should be very careful about this sort of thing. Considering what >Ravioli has done to that locomotive - C&O, Milwaukee Road, Santa Fe - they >might just do it. It's a wonder that the UP 4-8-4 hasn't come out as NYC >and D&H - after all, they all had elephant ears, and the Niagara had a >centipede tank. > >What we really need is for them to bring out a plastic J1... > Pat Egan > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 12:25:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rumors From: Jerry Britton On 2/4/00 12:00 PM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > - Someone (unnamed) is resurrecting the old Middle Division P85b > project!! I hope this isn't another of those internet legends like the > stolen kidneys and the Nieman Marcus cookie recipe. That's been on their rumor mill list for several months. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rumors Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:48:45 -0500 Hi, To set the record straight, the Budd passenger cars we are referring to are NOT P2K, P1K or Life Like. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller To: PRR Date: February 04, 2000 12:14 PM Subject: [PRR] Rumors SNIP > >- LL P2K (or P1K) is considering 85' Budd streamliners - a Congo maybe? >please please >-- >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Yahoo PRR club Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:25:28 -0500 Hi List, I have just created a Yahoo Pennsylvania Railroad club. I would like to invite the list members to join. It may take a day or two to be able to join. Go to Yahoo and search clubs in the hobby and railroad section. It is free to join. For those who wanted a chat room, Yahoo gives us one. There is also a place to post photos. Speaking of photos, I have just received 8 PRR photos that were probably taken at Altoona of Diesel wrecks. They are an E-8, F-3 and Centipede. The F-3 has the entire cab ripped off. The are E-20983, 20982, 19720, 20986, 20984, 20985, 20981 and one without an E number. Does anyone have any info on where these wrecks occurred? I am going to post these to the Yahoo photo section soon . Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] RE Pennsy Hudson? Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:39:05 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF6F3F.1D08C500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lima / Rivarossi have always repainted stock in as many liveries as = possible even if they do not exist to maximise their returns. Lima = products used to be awful!! and I have some Swedish Rivarossi wagons = that for their date (1980) are very poor. Especially as the mouldings = used were Pocher from the 60's and were used to assemble decent models = back then.. Patrick Grace Surely the best thing they could do is upgrade their USRA 0-6-0 and do = that with a slope back tender in Pennsy livery, and it would be = reasonably prototypical. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF6F3F.1D08C500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lima / Rivarossi have always repainted = stock in as=20 many liveries as possible even if they do not exist to maximise their = returns.=20 Lima products used to be awful!! and I have some Swedish Rivarossi = wagons that=20 for their date (1980) are very poor. Especially as the mouldings used = were=20 Pocher from the 60's and were used to assemble decent models back=20 then..
 
Patrick Grace
 
Surely the best thing they could do is = upgrade=20 their USRA 0-6-0 and do that with a slope back tender in Pennsy livery, = and it=20 would be reasonably prototypical.
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BF6F3F.1D08C500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 12:59:31 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Cambridge City branch-JM&I Hello: Casting as wide a net as possible... As I was plumbing through the Simons-Parker "Indiana Railroads" book the other day--a book I highly recommend, BTW--I chanced upon the information that the former Cambridge City branch was reactivated for its entire length during WWII. This line, which had been made somewhat redundant after Hawthorne Yard opened in Indianapolis, had been taken out of service above Bentonville sometime during the middle or late thirties, but left in place. I've seen references to its use as a place to store unused cars. But according to S&P, it was placed back in service as a freight bypass for a war-time busy Indianapolis complex, and as a main-train access to Camp Atterbury near Edinburg. The citation for this is a letter by one Kenneth Ricker in the November, 1942 issue of "Railroad Magazine" (p142). Does anyone have further information and/or documentation on this? It must have been a short-lived situation since the branch is still out of service north of Bentonville in my copy of Indianapolis Div ETT#4 dated 11-14-43. Just curious. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 11:19:42 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Hudson? List, While I also like to see correct paint and lettering on a model, not everyone cares. The more units of a model sold that is produced from hard tooling, the cheaper the unit cost and the greater chance we might see other offerings of prototype previously only brass. I am not really concerned about the volume of incorrect paint and lettering schemes, these are not the big investment and can be corrected by the manufacturer down the road. Insist however on correct tooling, once it is cut, it is rarly corrected and seems to live forever. Some of the wild schemes seen on models for the general public help the sales for the manufacturer and may be bringing in future serious modelers who will graduate to higher levels of autheticity. Doug Vastano,Sam wrote: > > Hi Group, > > I have to throw my 2 cents worth into this conversation. About 5 years ago I > probably would have bought one. Only because I was ignorant that > manufactures would make anything and put PRR on the side if it. I didn't > know anybetter. But after being educated by the PRR Talk group and many > books I have come to realize that we can get screwed big time if we don't > complain about the quality of the products that the manufacturer puts out. > > Just my 2 cents > > Sam Vastano > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Egan > To: PRR-Talk > Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 8:45 AM > Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Hudson? > > >>... I would go as far as saying that if Rivarossi > >>lettered their NYC Hudson for the Pennsylvania, it would probably sell! > >>(purchased by non-purists no doubt) > > > >We should be very careful about this sort of thing. Considering what > >Ravioli has done to that locomotive - C&O, Milwaukee Road, Santa Fe - they > >might just do it. It's a wonder that the UP 4-8-4 hasn't come out as NYC > >and D&H - after all, they all had elephant ears, and the Niagara had a > >centipede tank. > > > >What we really need is for them to bring out a plastic J1... > > Pat Egan > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 15:37:44 EST Subject: [PRR] Tender steps Anybody know why passenger tenders and freight tenders have different rear steps? IMHO the freight steps look a lot better. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 15:50:48 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender steps I'm going to guess. The freight tenders had footboards on the rear for the brakeman to ride (not a guess). Since the passenger tenders did not have them, the stirrups were curved back to put the brakeman riding the stirrups a little closer to any car they might be switching. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > Anybody know why passenger tenders and freight tenders have different rear > steps? IMHO the freight steps look a lot better. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:12:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender steps In a message dated 02/04/2000 3:00:39 PM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << I'm going to guess. The freight tenders had footboards on the rear for the brakeman to ride (not a guess). Since the passenger tenders did not have them, the stirrups were curved back to put the brakeman riding the stirrups a little closer to any car they might be switching. >> Didn't someone on this list suggest that the freight footboards wouldn't work for passenger applications because of the tight clearance due to passenger car diaphragms? Or did I just dream that? Bob (in advanced stages of CRS disease) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:31:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] CIRIN Update From: EJ Caylor Added some new stuff to the Central Indiana Railroad Information Network today: Photos on former Monon & B&O in Crawfordsville & Roachdale, respectively Photo page of CP Clermont on the Crawfordsville Branch I added a page for the former Crawfordsville Secondary Track under the PC (PRR yet to come). No station pages on it yet, but there is a timeline page which is a chronological liating of General Orders that I have had access to. The G.O.'s are listed for the lines major abandonment in 1974. Check it out & tell me what you think! E.J. Caylor Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:55:33 EST Subject: [PRR] RUMOR Heard an interesting rumor today from the inside . . . Rumor has it that the Canadian Government is placing so many restrictions on the proposed merger of BNSF-CN that it is likely to fail. If it does, BNSF's next target is NS. I know this sounds strange but coupled with other rumors and facts I've heard about NC-BNSF dealings, it sounds plausible to me! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:08:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE Pennsy Hudson? In a message dated 2/4/00 1:56:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, pgrace@aspects.net writes: << Surely the best thing they could do is upgrade their USRA 0-6-0 and do that with a slope back tender in Pennsy livery, and it would be reasonably prototypical. >> Actually it is a PRR model as is - Class B-28, Lines West - with a square back tender If you want to upgrade and Pennsyfy get a PRR style boiler front and headlight Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:14:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Hudsons - Yes Virginia there is a Pennsy "Hudson" - of course we probably would have called it a "Baltic" - or something else - if it had been a steamer BUT count the wheels under a P-5 electric: 4-6-4 Like class "L" the first 4 numbers in class were reserved for steamers: the Monogram model, with Pennsy on the tender, would be called a "P1s" You think that the class would acquire a "nickname?" Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] RE Pennsy Hudson ? Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:21:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_030A_01BF6F6E.EE51FEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dick Ross commented that the Rivarossi B-28 0-6-0 is usable as it is, = BUT the problem is with the pickups and wheel standards unless they have = vastly improved it, as it used to only pick up the front & rear drivers = and one one side of the tender. This is not the worst product however that they produce their SJ = (Swedish State) T43 diesel has a pancake motor and can't fight its way out of a paper = bag.. with no space to weight it. As far as I know most Britisk Lima = models are similar though as the British go for a boxcab type design at = least there is room for weights. Hopefully they will learn Patrick Grace ------=_NextPart_000_030A_01BF6F6E.EE51FEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dick Ross commented that the Rivarossi = B-28 0-6-0=20 is usable as it is, BUT the problem is with the pickups and wheel = standards=20 unless they have vastly improved it, as it used to only pick up the = front &=20 rear drivers and one one side of the tender.
 
This is not the worst product however = that they=20 produce their SJ (Swedish State)
T43 diesel has a pancake motor and = can't fight its=20 way out of a paper bag.. with no space to weight it. As far as I know = most=20 Britisk Lima models are similar though as the British go for a boxcab = type=20 design at least there is room for weights.
 
Hopefully they will learn
 
Patrick = Grace
------=_NextPart_000_030A_01BF6F6E.EE51FEE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Truck Train Decals Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:18:57 -0800 Are these available in O scale? Greg Stone PRRTHS member special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE Pennsy Hudson? Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:21:27 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BF6F3C.A6CAE960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pat and all... Actually not...the PRR had some USRA 0-6-0's (B28s?)and they had the = standard rectangular tank. I think some photos are in one or more of = Stauffer's Pennsy Power series. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- =20 =20 Surely the best thing they could do is upgrade their USRA 0-6-0 and = do that with a slope back tender in Pennsy livery, and it would be = reasonably prototypical. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BF6F3C.A6CAE960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pat and all...
 
Actually not...the PRR had some USRA 0-6-0's = (B28s?)and they=20 had the standard rectangular tank. I think some photos are in one or = more of=20 Stauffer's Pennsy Power series.
 
Bill Daniels
-----Original=20 Message-----
 
Surely the best thing they could do = is upgrade=20 their USRA 0-6-0 and do that with a slope back tender in Pennsy = livery, and=20 it would be reasonably = prototypical.
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BF6F3C.A6CAE960-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trip to Cleveland Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:30:57 -0700 Rick and all... I thougt it was nice today...upper 70's, clear sky, no precip in the forecast. What is "snow"??? Come to think of it, what is "winter"????? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ > >And yes, I will be driving a front-wheel drive and carrying a snow shovel. >Lovely weather we're having! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 20:58:09 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] RE:Pennsy Hudson Hi All.... The Pennsy had a Hudson...It was called the K-5. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:36:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR passenger train question In a message dated 00-02-03 14:35:37 EST, GenJim833 writes: << Only the first section made all the stops. >> Some late 40's-early 50's public TT's show the 20th Century as stopping only at New York, Harmon, Englewood, and Chicago. Of course, it stopped and changed crews at all the crew-change points. Any extra sections would have done the same thing. D'you think anyone wondered why they were stopped in the middle of the night? PRR's depiction of the Broadway in public TT's was more realistic. They listed "receive-only" at all places where the train actually stopped prior to Pittsburgh, and "discharge-only" at all actual stops beyond Pittsburgh. That way, if your watch said 9:08pm and the train was stopped, you knew you were in Harrisburg! Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:38:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Eastern/Central time A 1916 Official Guide shows the PRR switching from Eastern Time to Central Time at Pittsburgh (it was still "Pittsburg" in that book!). For all of my life, the time zone has been between Ft.Wayne and Chicago. Was the time zone changed sometime after 1916? Or was Lines West still independent enough, at the time, to run their whole system on Central Time? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 02:42:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Rumors Gize, I have to agree with Dennis I have been personally involved with two manufactures cutting dies for stainless steel equipment for release in Ho scale and it is not Life Like. One manufacturer is focusing on prewar Pullman the second is working on post war BUDD cars. I think you will see Florida equipment but not the entire Congressional Congo cars unfortunately. Likely the PRR 10-6 and a 52 seat coach car, which works for SAL as well. Good news is with some minor window mod's you an increase the seating to 54 seat and 56 seat, but you ill have to do them yourself. A small group of us have been collecting data on a spread sheet for the manufacture and it is just about ready to be passed over with drawings. Greg Martin << Hi, To set the record straight, the Budd passenger cars we are referring to are NOT P2K, P1K or Life Like. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 10:26:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Altoona built motors Since most of the motors were built at Altoona does anybody know how they tested them before placing in service? Was there a stretch of track with catenary? Did they do it on the dynamometer with a big aligator clip? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 09:53:16 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] metals compatibility (soldering) Kris and the list, I can't say I've ever seen electrolysis in HO models, but it could happen. One historical example; many of the WWII warbirds were built with metals engineers knew would electrolyze because they assumed the a/c would have very short service lives. I can't remember where I read this, but so far as I know, you can't solder brass and aluminum. I have no idea whatsoever on whether or not aluminum can be soldered. If I may suggest, drive back to the hobby shop and get some brass tubing. You could also order from Precision Scale Co. some of their air reservoirs and tanks. They sell them in several styles (convex welded, convex rivited, concave welded, flat rivited, flat welded, etc) in a variety of diameters: 16", 20", 24". Their tanks are brass tubing that you cut to length for your particular engine, then add the ends (which include mounting brackets). Either way, enjoy! Doug "Kollar, Kris" wrote: > To the metallurgists on the list. I'm scratch building some parts for the > K4 I'm working on. I want to make mounting straps for the air tanks under > the running boards. I have lots of the correct diameter tube but its > aluminum. My question is not so much can I solder brass to the aluminum > (I'll figure that out on my own) more importantly if this process works will > the metals react with each other over time and corrode. Kinda like the > problem that occurred on Statue of Liberty with the iron bar frame work > reacting with the copper skin (I know there is a name for it but it escapes > me at the time). My bolts would get really torqued if I did this work and > in six months after I completed the job little bubbles of corrosion and > pitting started to form. > > Also can aluminum be soldered to aluminum? > > My alternative is to go out and buy some brass tube but that would require > another trip back to the distant hobby shop. > > Any wisdom would be much appreciated > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 10:17:37 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] PRR B28s in HO scale Hello list, This pertains to the PRR B28s thread. As with just about everything I do, I made my USRA 060 the hard way. I used a Bachmann boiler, a Rivarossi tender that I picked up at one of the Timonium shows, a Roundhouse 060 chassis, PSC cylinders, and Bowser H9s valve gear. Throw all of the parts in a pot and stir....Just Kidding! What I have now that I'm finished is a good running and decent looking USRA 060 with some deviations from the prototype, specifically in wheelbase and valve gear; the Roundhouse wheelbase and wheel spacing is different (but with that nice can motor, it purrs!), and as far as I know, all PRR (and CNJ) USRA 060s retained Baker valve gear until retirement. I attempted to use PSC's valve gear for the Roundhouse 060, but found it too sophisticated for my clumsy hands. I used Bowser's H9s valve gear because I thought it would fit (and I ended up using Bowser H9s main rods as well), and it did. PSC sells a Baker valve gear kit (HO 31530) for freight engines and switchers for those of you that want to correct this deficiency. I had an old Rivarossi 060, but I did not consider rehabilitating it because of the poor chassis; the flanges were enormous and the motor burned out quickly. Today we're blessed with a much larger selection of smooth running steam, but we could always use more! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:05:06 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site Hello list, Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives web site has a new page on Pacifics. He's still building it, but it has a very nice section on PRR's Pacifics, with some photos, engine numbers, and other useful tidbits of information. In the absence of a good set of reference books, it can come in hands. Enjoy! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brady Burdge" Subject: [PRR] Boilers Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 18:15:32 +0100 Did the K-4 and L1 share the same basic boiler? Brady http://ogauge.homestead.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 12:33:51 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] No alligator clips NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Since most of the motors were built at Altoona does anybody know how they > tested them before placing in service? Was there a stretch of track with > catenary? Did they do it on the dynamometer with a big aligator clip? Greetings to NDBPRR and the list: There was a short stretch of test catenary within the Juniata shops complex. It lay parallel to, and adjacent to, the main line. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@mciworld.com Psalm 100:1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 11:02:43 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] No alligator clips Hi Dan, All, > There was a short stretch of test catenary within the Juniata shops complex. > It lay parallel to, and adjacent to, the main line. This is really great news! My first railfanning was watching the GG1s on the NEC in Balto. Love those Motors. Since I model Altoona to Johnstown I had resigned myself to keeping my GG1 on the mantle for display. Now I can display it properly in Altoona. I can even operate it, at least back and forth! Questions: Any more detail available about this short section of cat in the Juniata Shops? Where exactly was it adjacent to the Mains? Was it standard cat or just a bare bones construction? Any construction details available? Any pics? Thanks in advance, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] No alligator clips Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:08:26 -0500 The Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona has an HO model of the west end of the Altoona complex which includes a short section of test track with catenary. It's located just east of the old locomotive test facility, roughly where the museum's equipment display is located. I have no idea whether that's where it really was, but other things on the model seem to be properly located. If books and track diagrams don't help, you might try writing to the museum. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: Ron Dugas To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] No alligator clips >Hi Dan, All, > >> There was a short stretch of test catenary within the Juniata shops complex. >> It lay parallel to, and adjacent to, the main line. > >This is really great news! My first railfanning was watching the GG1s on >the NEC in Balto. Love those Motors. Since I model Altoona to Johnstown >I had resigned myself to keeping my GG1 on the mantle for display. Now I >can display it properly in Altoona. I can even operate it, at least back >and forth! > >Questions: Any more detail available about this short section of cat in >the Juniata Shops? Where exactly was it adjacent to the Mains? Was it >standard cat or just a bare bones construction? Any construction details >available? Any pics? > >Thanks in advance, > >Ron. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "cos" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 14:11:32 -0500 Howdy All: The quick and simple answer is Yes they did share the same boiler. Credit Motive Power chief J.T. Wallis, with Alfred Gibbs and Axel Vogt who designed the basic parameters, based on the E6s Atlantic. The KW type trailing truck was also interchangeable with both the L1s and the E6s. K4s specs: Boiler, inside diameter 76 5/8 inch Steam pressure 205 lbs Firebox 126" x 80" Tubes 40 @ 5 1/2" 236 @ 2 1/4" all tubes 19' 0" long Grate area 70 square feet Water heating surface 4050 square feet Superheating surface 1215 square feet Cylinders 27" x 28" Weight on drivers 201,830 lbs Total weight (without tender) 308,890 Tractive force 44,460 Indicated horse-power 3,184 350 built at Altoona 75 built by Baldwin L1s specs: see above for all areas up to cylinders Cylinders 27" x 30" Weight on drivers 240,200 Total weight (without tender) 320,700 Tractive force 61,470 369 copies built at Altoona 205 built by Baldwin ( Pennsy Power I has Lima building some?) 574 was the total fleet. Information from: Pennsy Power I by Alvin F. Staufer Loco Profile 14 Pennsylvania Pacifics by Brian Reed Locomotives of the Pennsylvania Railroad 1834-1924 by Paul T. Warner In case you didn't do the math - that's 999 boilers - not a small number! Cos Home - http://www.wsbcos.com Railroad pages - http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm > Did the K-4 and L1 share the same basic boiler? > > > > Brady > http://ogauge.homestead.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 14:56:30 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] No alligator clips Bill Bigler wrote: > The Railroader's Memorial Museum in Altoona has an HO model of the west end > of the Altoona complex which includes a short section of test track with > catenary. It's located just east of the old locomotive test facility, > roughly where the museum's equipment display is located. I have no idea > whether that's where it really was, but other things on the model seem to be > properly located. If books and track diagrams don't help, you might try > writing to the museum. Greetings to Bill, Ron and the List: Most of the shops area of the Altoona Railroads Memorial Museum is reasonably close, but we did have to take a few liberties (I was a consultant on that project) with selective compression and relocation of some features. The test catenary as shown in the model is not where it actually was located. The actual site was near the west end of the E&M building--the big one at the far eastern end of the shops complex, built in the early 1920s, in the Juniata section of Altoona. As already noted, the electric test track was parallel to, and adjacent to, the main line (that is, the two tracks closest to the shops, the ones always used by passenger trains), and not buried deep in the shops complex. I don't remember exactly, but of the shop trackage, I think it was one or two tracks in from the main line, probably not closest to them. Since the test track was a single track, the poles and supporting catenary structure were very simple--none of the heavy bridgework or H-towers or K-towers of the actual mainline electrification, etc. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@micworld.com Psalm 23:1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Photos of B60 and B70 baggage cars Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:00:48 -0500 Dear List: Does anyone have a photo(s) I can buy/use for a magazine article of either or both a B60 and B70 baggage car with the clerestory roof? I have been offered one of the B60 with a round "turtle" roof, but require a photo as close to "as built", before the modernization/rebuild. Thanks, Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Smithsonian photo services Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:05:09 -0500 Friends: Does anyone know how to order a photo from the Smithsonian collection? I have the negative number. I have e-mailed and written to the Smithsonian many times but do not get a response. Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] black roof on standard passenger, mail and bagage cars Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 16:12:07 -0500 PRR talk friends: I have heard this "black roof" referenced several different ways. What is the black material on the standard passenger car roof? Is it just paint, an asphalt coating or a fabric covering/laminate with an asphalt coating/overlay or something else? Thanks, Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:17:39 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Brass question Hi All... Anyone know if Westside made parts for the AHM J-1 ? Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 20:09:56 EST Subject: [PRR] [PRR]"O" ScaleTruck Train Trailers Look for a "break up" of tre new MTH 6 car PRR set = most people want the N-8 Cabin - but there is a very nice flat with a pair of nicely done short trailers with, what I think, is an accurate "Truck Train" logo - (and MTH went to the work of giving eachtrailer a seperate #) Since dealers are making good money breaking up the set for the N-8 I've seen the "remaider" cars for as little as $30 - $35 - or the whole set of 6 (List $205) for under $200 Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass question Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 22:27:42 -0800 Hi Hank--Not sure if this will help, but here goes: Westside J1 was just an upgrade of the model previously imported by AHM, so depending on what parts you need, they are "probably" interchangable. My assumption is that they were actually made by the same Japanese modelmakers or at least used the same fixtures and molds. Although I sold my AHM J1 several years ago, during the mid-80's I operated it frequently on the San Diego Model Railroad Club's layout. Interestingly in that land of SP and ATSF, there was a hardcore group of SPF's. There were several times when the only engines running all day were DGLE. Triple headed J1's were a real sight to see on the layout's desert mountain scenery. Of course the AHM had a big open frame motor, but it ran perfectly with the Westside with its can motor. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brady Burdge" Subject: [PRR] O Gauge PRR Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:37:40 +0100 Any three-railers out there should take a look at the new MTH 2000 Vol 2 catalog - nice looking L1, RS-3, and a new "baby" turbine set. http://www.cyber-rail.com/00vol2.htm Brady http://ogauge.homestead.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:24:38 -0700 Yes. In fact they were interchangable. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: Brady Burdge To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 10:20 AM Subject: [PRR] Boilers >Did the K-4 and L1 share the same basic boiler? > > > >Brady >http://ogauge.homestead.com/ > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:35:46 -0700 Hi Doug... I would like to check Wes's site out, but currently do not have the URL. Do you think you could post it? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 9:56 AM Subject: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site >Hello list, > >Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives web site has a new page on >Pacifics. He's still building it, but it has a very nice section on >PRR's Pacifics, with some photos, engine numbers, and other useful >tidbits of information. In the absence of a good set of reference >books, it can come in hands. > >Enjoy! > >Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers Brady, Besides being the same boiler there was a slight difference in the sand dome placement. Most K4's (all but about 30 Lines West assigned Locos) had the sand dome behind the Bell Location. On the L1 (Most if not all) had the sand dome in front of the Bell.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site Bill, I was reading my emails when your post came in so I figured I would throw out the answer. Here is Wes's site. http://www.steamlocomotive.com/ ........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars From: Fred G Rea Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 11:43:49 EST I have recently acquired several 60' Merchandise Service box car QC kits. Since these are dated 1947 and my layout is circa 1948, they are too good to pass up. Did they operate in long blocks or one at two at a time? Do they belong at the front of my passenger train, in my mail train, or in a freight? Thanks Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] K-4 and L-1 boilers Hi All... I studied the PRR locomotive diagrams for these two classes and the boiler were identical (like i really need to tell some of you). LOL Anyway. the distance between sheets,flue sizes and tubes were the same as were the overall boiler dimentions. While the KW trailing truck was the same,it carried a different load on it depending on what class it was applied to. Other parts that seem to be interchangeable were domes, valves, bells, headlights, markers, tanks, stokers, cabs, powers reverses, air pumps, super heaters, injectors, starter valves, misc piping, grates, stacks (although there were differences between them), wheel bearings, axles, valve guides, and generators. Now all we need is someone to bring up the E-6,G-5 H class similarities. Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 18:18:14 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars In a message dated 2/6/00 11:53:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Did they operate in long blocks or one at two at a time? Do they belong at the front of my passenger train, in my mail train, or in a freight? Thanks >> "Merchandise Service" was an "LCL" thing - I'd think that they would be seen one at a time, not in blocks I don't believe that these cars were equipped with steam and signal lines - they may have been seen at the tail end of Passenger trains - but not in front of the coaches Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:17:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch: some responses to Mike Morrow's questions Some of these have been answered pretty well, some I think are a "matter of opinion"... some I answered directly to Mike. I thought I'd post a summary of my responses for the whole list, so here goes... < Until I can locate Caloros's book, are there any books in print currently that have info and photos of the Elmira Branch?> There's Gunnarsson's book, "The Story of the Northern Central Railway", a hardback published circa 1993. Also, "Pennsy Diesel Years Volume 4" has some photos taken on the EB, including a very nice portrait of the Trout Run station. And there is the "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings volume 2", a CD-ROM available from Desktop Solutions, the host of PRR-Talk, which has the 1923 CT1000E on it, with loads of info about the Elmira Branch, as well as a 1924 CT200. "Adjusted Tonnage Ratings", which lists tonnage ratings for different classes of locomotives over different portions of the line. This was answered by other respondents; it was abandoned in the Penn Central years after Agnes destroyed much of the PA portion of the line in 1972. PC restored a section for a couple miles north of Newberry Junction to service some businesses. The rest was abandoned. This seems to be a matter of opinion. In some spots (the Powy's Curve area, just south of Trout Run, comes to mind here) the old Right-Of-Way was wiped out by the re-location of Route 15 in the last 10 years. In other places, the ROW can be discerned. In one spot near the old Marsh Hill Junction with the S&NY, part of the old ROW is now used as a road. In some places the bridges are still intact. For example, my sister's house on Heshbon Road is located no more than 50 yards from the south end of bridge 3.83 ("Bridge #3" in local-speak) and that 170 foot long steel truss bridge is still very much intact. It's been a while since I made the trip up Route 14, but I believe some of the other bridges are still there too. I'm pretty sure the truss bridge at Ralston is still there, for one. This depends on the year. At one time, for example, there was a station at Powy's. By the 1930's (at the latest) it was gone. It would also depend on what you mean by "stop". A station, a tower, ?? Generally I would interpret "stop" to mean "station"; some of the answers listed towers in addition to stations. Looking at the gradient profile of the track chart for the Elmira Division, it can be seen that the grade, although ascending, was fairly easy going north from Williamsport to Roaring Branch. From there it was roughly 1.1% upward to Leolyn (first "summit", also called the "Leolyn Hill", elevation about 1238 ft.). Then the line went down at an easy grade to a point between Grover and Cedar Ledge. From there, it was uphill by as much as 1.1% to Alba. Then it was fairly level to Cowley (so Alba to Cowley could be considered the "second summit", elevation about 1378 ft. at Cowley). From Cowley the line descended steeply (1.1% and so) to Troy, to a point north of Troy that was at elevation 1074 ft. This was sometimes called the "Troy Hill". After that the line was roughly level to Columbia Crossroads. Then it went upgrade to Sned, after which it went downhill gradually to Elmira. So in some ways, you could call the area around Sned (Snedikerville) the "third summit" at an elevation of about 1266 feet. Pushers on northbound trains would usually not be cut off until Sned, as this was the last "summit" before Elmira. That's enough for now from me. Until somebody else asks a question about one of my favorite subjects, the EB on the good old PRR. Jim Anderson sny114@aol.com PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:42:26 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Changing trucks on Rivarossi 1930s coaches Hello list, A few years ago, I painted and decalled one of Rivarossi's 1930s coaches to stand in for a P85 coach (the stillborn Middle Division P85 being then in the future). My grandfather likes it, but I recently had to change the trucks on it, and this is how I did it. The Rivarossi trucks the car came with had cracked (my assumption is that the car left the track unintentionally). In any case, they were shorter in vertical height than the MDC/Roundhouse Commonwealth trucks that I've come to prefer. However, you can't just drill and tap the existing bolster location because the original Rivarossi trucks have a mounting pin that's off-center from the wheelbase, wheras the MDC 2935 Commonwealth trucks have a hole that's centered on the wheelbase. I thought I'd have to build up a mounting pad, but I measured and found that if I drilled a #50 hole at the end of the original carbody bolster nearest the ends of the car, the MDC truck would mount nicely. Add washers until your car clears your minimum radius (mine is unfortunately a tiny 22" right now, but I can always remove washers later when space becomes more generous). Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:51:20 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers Brady and the list, Yes! The only difference was that all L1s engines had the sand box (sand dome) located in front of the bell, while nearly all K4s engines (except for certail Lines West K4s engines) had the bell located in front of the sand box. Everything else was identical; the same 70 square feet of grate area, 36" combustion chamber, 19' tube length, etc. Doug Brady Burdge wrote: > Did the K-4 and L1 share the same basic boiler? > > Brady > http://ogauge.homestead.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:58:39 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site Bill and the list, The URL is www.steamlocomotive.com. Enjoy! Doug Bill Daniels wrote: > Hi Doug... > I would like to check Wes's site out, but currently do not have the URL. Do > you think you could post it? > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > -----Original Message----- > From: doug.kisala > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 9:56 AM > Subject: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > > >Hello list, > > > >Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives web site has a new page on > >Pacifics. He's still building it, but it has a very nice section on > >PRR's Pacifics, with some photos, engine numbers, and other useful > >tidbits of information. In the absence of a good set of reference > >books, it can come in hands. > > > >Enjoy! > > > >Doug > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 19:34:01 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Adding Detail Associates Farr air grills to F units Hello list, I'm making progress again on my FP7/EFP 15. I used Detail Associates Farr air grills on my kitbash; this was my first experience with them. The grills are sized for E Units, so I cut them to length. I was done decalling and had glosscoated the shell, so I put the grills in a box lid and secured them with masking tape. I hosed them with some Elmers spray adhesive and put them on the shell. The adhesive seems to be working well. I have been working with the American Models #228 window set for Athearn F units. The cab side windows fit right in, as did the front window inserts. Perhaps I'm clueless, but my opinion thus far is mixed. This set results in a scale appearance for the front windows. However, the porthole windows and door windows arent't a press in fit. For now, I'm using the Detail Associates window set for F units for the portholes and hoping for the best. Any suggestions for working with the American Models window set? Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:22:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars In a message dated 2/6/2000 10:53:46 AM Central Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com writes: << Did they operate in long blocks or one at two at a time? Do they belong at the front of my passenger train, in my mail train, or in a freight? >> In a freight. They were LCL (less than carload cars) so could be loaded at a freight house. In one application Train LCL-1 which traveled Chicago-New Jersey, picked up cars from various freight forwarders in Chicago, two online and one offline (not all were special Merchandise cars) . I assume, but can't verify that these cars would have been logical to be spotted at these freight forwarders. What I am wondering, in view of the fact these type of cars on all railroads (SP Overnight, B&O timesaver, NYC Pacemaker, MP Eagle) seldom left home rails, is whether they at least traveled to the other freighthouse/freight forwarders in Chicago that were reached via transfer service. In practice, these cars began to get scattered and dispersed. I would enjoy hearing from anyone who "was there" and could confirm whether they ever ran in any long blocks after the initial publicity photos. Most videos I see show from two to 5 scattered in a train. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ljgurke@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:43:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Amherst Show Report Folks, Just got back from the "Big-E" show in Springfield, MA - lots of excitement to report on the PRR front in HO scale (much of this may be old news to those "in the know" but it was news to me). First, the C&BT shops X-29B should be out by April - they are still working on the underframe, tho' there were a couple nice shells on display in both circle and shadow Keystone. Sheepscot had the hull for the Pennsy tugboat, full kit should be finished at some point, and Stewart says the VO-1000 is still on the back burner, and may be out by the end of 2000 if we're lucky. Best news of all was from Bethlehem Car Works - they had the 40' van trailer on display - a nice model, though I passed on picking several up because (I believe) they post-date my 1956-57 modeling era. Next up, however, are the (early) 35' van trailers. Following this is the R-50b express refrigerator (!) (! again), also another stock car (I believe the K-8, although I was so blown away when I heard "R50" that I'm not sure I heard correctly). Looks like HO modelers have a lot to look forward to! Mike in MA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:38:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Amherst show Like Mike I have just returned from the show. I on the other hand was on the other side of the table most of the time. Made many Pennsy sales during the weekend. Pennsylvania devotees were out there in full force. Did check out the other vendors and I agree, the BCW van trailers are really nice. Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: [PRR] Correct Lettering/logo for Plug Door Boxcar Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:57:35 -0500 I'm just getting into painting and decaling for my model railroad and have a few 40' plug door boxcars to do in the PRR scheme. Where can I find info, or picture, on the type and placement of lettering, type of logo, misc lettering, etc, that were typical of this type of car for the PRR? Thanks. Jim ----------------------------------------------- Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (N-Scale) http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen Jim's Railroad Pictures http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:10:34 -0700 Doug and all As has been mentioned several times already, the boilers on the K4s class and the L1s class were indeed itentical. This was done not to allow interchangable boilers between classes (although I read where one K4s locomotive recieved a boiler from a Lima-built L1s, and while the badge plate was changed to reflect the new locomotive class, the builder designation read "Lima". Interesting...if true) but to simplify manufacturing, and reduce costs, always a consideration on the Pennsy. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:36:00 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Amherst Show Report Did Bethlehem Car Works happen to mention if the R50b will have plastic or etched brass sides? Frank Brua Ljgurke@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > > Just got back from the "Big-E" show in Springfield, MA - lots of excitement > to report on the PRR front in HO scale (much of this may be old news to those > "in the know" but it was news to me). First, the C&BT shops X-29B should be > out by April - they are still working on the underframe, tho' there were a > couple nice shells on display in both circle and shadow Keystone. Sheepscot > had the hull for the Pennsy tugboat, full kit should be finished at some > point, and Stewart says the VO-1000 is still on the back burner, and may be > out by the end of 2000 if we're lucky. Best news of all was from Bethlehem > Car Works - they had the 40' van trailer on display - a nice model, though I > passed on picking several up because (I believe) they post-date my 1956-57 > modeling era. Next up, however, are the (early) 35' van trailers. Following > this is the R-50b express refrigerator (!) (! again), also another stock car > (I believe the K-8, although I was so blown away when I heard "R50" that I'm > not sure I heard correctly). Looks like HO modelers have a lot to look > forward to! > > Mike in MA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 05:11:22 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Eastern/Central time --- PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > A 1916 Official Guide shows the PRR switching from > Eastern Time to Central Time at Pittsburgh And you may recall that a while ago Rick Tipton remarked on an L&N TT which noted the PRR time change at Pittsburg/Pittsburgh Pure geometric considerations would place time zone boundaries (for 1 hour zones) on meridians which are odd multiples of 7.5 degrees. That is, the Eastern zone would be between 67.5 degrees and 82.5 degrees, or well off-shore in the Atlantic to a few miles east of Columbus, Ohio. The Standard Time Act was passed in 1918, so in 1916, in principle, only the railroads cared about where the time zone boundaries were. I suggest that Pittsburg was a logical place, even though it was 3 degrees too far east, as it was the boundary between Lines East and Lines West, and was a place where many trains started or ended their runs. Thus, the Ft. Wayne, the Panhandle, and the PRR could have a single Standard Time over each railroad, and crews starting a trip would not end their trip in another time zone. The Standard Time Act of 1918 caused all interstate commerce and hence all commercial activity to be regulated by standard time. Under that act the location of the boundaries affected a lot of people other than railroad workers, and their convenience may well have been the chief reason for moving the Eastern/Central boundary farther west. That it ended up on the Ohio/Indiana border put it about as much too far west as the Pittsburgh location had been too far east, but spared Ohio from living in two time zones. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:19:33 -0500 From: Mike Morrow Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 02/07/00 Thanks again to all who responded. I have located the Caloroso's book as well as the Northern Central book and a 1937 Williamsport Division Employees Timetable. Roy Breon supplied me with track charts off his website and Jerry is hooking me up with PDY #4. Hopefully they will be arriving this week. Next is a CT1000E and some more ETT's. Some of this stuff isn't cheap but this research stuff is addicting. Jim A. says, "That's a mighty slippery slope you're on...." Next I gotta select the time period to model now so I can start rounding up the right rolling stock and power. Again thanks to all of you for your help. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 "Hooked on the Elmira Branch" PRR-Talk wrote: > PRR-Talk Digest - Monday, February 7, 2000 > > O Gauge PRR > by "Brady Burdge" > Re: [PRR] Boilers > by "Bill Daniels" > Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > by "Bill Daniels" > Re: [PRR] Boilers > by "Gary Mittner" > Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > by "Gary Mittner" > PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars > by "Fred G Rea" > K-4 and L-1 boilers > by > PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars > by > Elmira Branch: some responses to Mike Morrow's questions > by > Changing trucks on Rivarossi 1930s coaches > by "doug.kisala" > Re: [PRR] Boilers > by "doug.kisala" > Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > by "doug.kisala" > Adding Detail Associates Farr air grills to F units > by "doug.kisala" > Re: [PRR] PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars > by > Amherst Show Report > by > Amherst show > by > Correct Lettering/logo for Plug Door Boxcar > by "Jim Cullen" > Re: [PRR] Boilers > by "Bill Daniels" > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: O Gauge PRR > From: "Brady Burdge" > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:37:40 +0100 > > Any three-railers out there should take a look at the new MTH 2000 Vol 2 > catalog - nice looking L1, RS-3, and a new "baby" turbine set. > > http://www.cyber-rail.com/00vol2.htm > > Brady > http://ogauge.homestead.com/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers > From: "Bill Daniels" > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:24:38 -0700 > > Yes. In fact they were interchangable. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > -----Original Message----- > From: Brady Burdge > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 10:20 AM > Subject: [PRR] Boilers > > >Did the K-4 and L1 share the same basic boiler? > > > > > > > >Brady > >http://ogauge.homestead.com/ > > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > From: "Bill Daniels" > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 07:35:46 -0700 > > Hi Doug... > I would like to check Wes's site out, but currently do not have the URL. Do > you think you could post it? > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > -----Original Message----- > From: doug.kisala > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 9:56 AM > Subject: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > > >Hello list, > > > >Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives web site has a new page on > >Pacifics. He's still building it, but it has a very nice section on > >PRR's Pacifics, with some photos, engine numbers, and other useful > >tidbits of information. In the absence of a good set of reference > >books, it can come in hands. > > > >Enjoy! > > > >Doug > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers > From: "Gary Mittner" > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) > > Brady, > > Besides being the same boiler there was a slight difference in the > sand dome placement. Most K4's (all but about 30 Lines West assigned > Locos) had the sand dome behind the Bell Location. On the L1 (Most if > not all) had the sand dome in front of the Bell.....Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > From: "Gary Mittner" > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) > > Bill, > > I was reading my emails when your post came in so I figured I would > throw out the answer. Here is Wes's site. > http://www.steamlocomotive.com/ ........Gary > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars > From: "Fred G Rea" > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 11:43:49 EST > > I have recently acquired several 60' Merchandise Service box car QC kits. > Since these are dated 1947 and my layout is circa 1948, they are too > good to pass up. > > Did they operate in long blocks or one at two at a time? Do they belong > at the front of my passenger train, in my mail train, or in a freight? > > Thanks > > Fred Rea > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: K-4 and L-1 boilers > From: > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 13:58:23 -0500 (EST) > > Hi All... > > I studied the PRR locomotive diagrams for these two classes > and the boiler were identical (like i really need to tell > some of you). LOL > Anyway. the distance between sheets,flue sizes and tubes were the same > as were the overall boiler dimentions. > While the KW trailing truck was the same,it carried a different > load on it depending on what class it was applied to. > Other parts that seem to be interchangeable were domes, valves, > bells, headlights, markers, tanks, stokers, cabs, powers reverses, > air pumps, super heaters, injectors, starter valves, misc piping, > grates, stacks (although there were differences between them), > wheel bearings, axles, valve guides, and generators. > > Now all we need is someone to bring up the E-6,G-5 H class > similarities. > > Til Later > H. Mummert > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars > From: > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 18:18:14 EST > > In a message dated 2/6/00 11:53:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, fredrea@juno.com > writes: > > << Did they operate in long blocks or one at two at a time? Do they belong > at the front of my passenger train, in my mail train, or in a freight? > > Thanks >> > > "Merchandise Service" was an "LCL" thing - I'd think that they would be seen > one at a time, not in blocks > I don't believe that these cars were equipped with steam and signal lines - > they may have been seen at the tail end of Passenger trains - but not in > front of the coaches > Dick Ross > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Elmira Branch: some responses to Mike Morrow's questions > From: > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 19:17:34 EST > > Some of these have been answered pretty well, some I think are a "matter of > opinion"... some I answered directly to Mike. I thought I'd post a summary of > my responses for the whole list, so here goes... > > < Until I can locate Caloros's book, are there any books in print currently > that have info and photos of the Elmira Branch?> > There's Gunnarsson's book, "The Story of the Northern Central Railway", a > hardback published circa 1993. Also, "Pennsy Diesel Years Volume 4" has some > photos taken on the EB, including a very nice portrait of the Trout Run > station. And there is the "Excerpts from Keystone Crossings volume 2", a > CD-ROM available from Desktop Solutions, the host of PRR-Talk, which has the > 1923 CT1000E on it, with loads of info about the Elmira Branch, as well as a > 1924 CT200. "Adjusted Tonnage Ratings", which lists tonnage ratings for > different classes of locomotives over different portions of the line. > > > This was answered by other respondents; it was abandoned in the Penn Central > years after Agnes destroyed much of the PA portion of the line in 1972. PC > restored a section for a couple miles north of Newberry Junction to service > some businesses. The rest was abandoned. > > photograph what's left?> > This seems to be a matter of opinion. In some spots (the Powy's Curve area, > just south of Trout Run, comes to mind here) the old Right-Of-Way was wiped > out by the re-location of Route 15 in the last 10 years. In other places, the > ROW can be discerned. In one spot near the old Marsh Hill Junction with the > S&NY, part of the old ROW is now used as a road. In some places the bridges > are still intact. For example, my sister's house on Heshbon Road is located > no more than 50 yards from the south end of bridge 3.83 ("Bridge #3" in > local-speak) and that 170 foot long steel truss bridge is still very much > intact. It's been a while since I made the trip up Route 14, but I believe > some of the other bridges are still there too. I'm pretty sure the truss > bridge at Ralston is still there, for one. > > and Elmira?> > This depends on the year. At one time, for example, there was a station at > Powy's. By the 1930's (at the latest) it was gone. It would also depend on > what you mean by "stop". A station, a tower, ?? Generally I would interpret > "stop" to mean "station"; some of the answers listed towers in addition to > stations. > > the summit of the grade located?> > Looking at the gradient profile of the track chart for the Elmira Division, > it can be seen that the grade, although ascending, was fairly easy going > north from Williamsport to Roaring Branch. From there it was roughly 1.1% > upward to Leolyn (first "summit", also called the "Leolyn Hill", elevation > about 1238 ft.). Then the line went down at an easy grade to a point between > Grover and Cedar Ledge. From there, it was uphill by as much as 1.1% to Alba. > Then it was fairly level to Cowley (so Alba to Cowley could be considered the > "second summit", elevation about 1378 ft. at Cowley). From Cowley the line > descended steeply (1.1% and so) to Troy, to a point north of Troy that was at > elevation 1074 ft. This was sometimes called the "Troy Hill". After that the > line was roughly level to Columbia Crossroads. Then it went upgrade to Sned, > after which it went downhill gradually to Elmira. So in some ways, you could > call the area around Sned (Snedikerville) the "third summit" at an elevation > of about 1266 feet. Pushers on northbound trains would usually not be cut off > until Sned, as this was the last "summit" before Elmira. > > That's enough for now from me. Until somebody else asks a question about one > of my favorite subjects, the EB on the good old PRR. > > Jim Anderson > sny114@aol.com > PRRT&HS 3995 > Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Changing trucks on Rivarossi 1930s coaches > From: "doug.kisala" > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:42:26 -0600 > > Hello list, > > A few years ago, I painted and decalled one of Rivarossi's 1930s coaches > to stand in for a P85 coach (the stillborn Middle Division P85 being > then in the future). My grandfather likes it, but I recently had to > change the trucks on it, and this is how I did it. > > The Rivarossi trucks the car came with had cracked (my assumption is > that the car left the track unintentionally). In any case, they were > shorter in vertical height than the MDC/Roundhouse Commonwealth trucks > that I've come to prefer. However, you can't just drill and tap the > existing bolster location because the original Rivarossi trucks have a > mounting pin that's off-center from the wheelbase, wheras the MDC 2935 > Commonwealth trucks have a hole that's centered on the wheelbase. > > I thought I'd have to build up a mounting pad, but I measured and found > that if I drilled a #50 hole at the end of the original carbody bolster > nearest the ends of the car, the MDC truck would mount nicely. Add > washers until your car clears your minimum radius (mine is unfortunately > a tiny 22" right now, but I can always remove washers later when space > becomes more generous). > > Doug > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers > From: "doug.kisala" > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:51:20 -0600 > > Brady and the list, > > Yes! The only difference was that all L1s engines had the sand box (sand > dome) located in front of the bell, while nearly all K4s engines (except for > certail Lines West K4s engines) had the bell located in front of the sand > box. > > Everything else was identical; the same 70 square feet of grate area, 36" > combustion chamber, 19' tube length, etc. > > Doug > > Brady Burdge wrote: > > > Did the K-4 and L1 share the same basic boiler? > > > > Brady > > http://ogauge.homestead.com/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > From: "doug.kisala" > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 18:58:39 -0600 > > Bill and the list, > > The URL is www.steamlocomotive.com. > > Enjoy! > > Doug > > Bill Daniels wrote: > > > Hi Doug... > > I would like to check Wes's site out, but currently do not have the URL. Do > > you think you could post it? > > > > Bill Daniels > > Tucson, AZ > > -----Original Message----- > > From: doug.kisala > > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > > Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 9:56 AM > > Subject: [PRR] Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives site > > > > >Hello list, > > > > > >Wes Barris' North American Steam Locomotives web site has a new page on > > >Pacifics. He's still building it, but it has a very nice section on > > >PRR's Pacifics, with some photos, engine numbers, and other useful > > >tidbits of information. In the absence of a good set of reference > > >books, it can come in hands. > > > > > >Enjoy! > > > > > >Doug > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Adding Detail Associates Farr air grills to F units > From: "doug.kisala" > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 19:34:01 -0600 > > Hello list, > > I'm making progress again on my FP7/EFP 15. I used Detail Associates > Farr air grills on my kitbash; this was my first experience with them. > > The grills are sized for E Units, so I cut them to length. I was done > decalling and had glosscoated the shell, so I put the grills in a box > lid and secured them with masking tape. I hosed them with some Elmers > spray adhesive and put them on the shell. The adhesive seems to be > working well. > > I have been working with the American Models #228 window set for Athearn > F units. The cab side windows fit right in, as did the front window > inserts. Perhaps I'm clueless, but my opinion thus far is mixed. This > set results in a scale appearance for the front windows. However, the > porthole windows and door windows arent't a press in fit. For now, I'm > using the Detail Associates window set for F units for the portholes and > hoping for the best. > > Any suggestions for working with the American Models window set? > > Doug > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 60' Merchandise Service cars > From: > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:22:39 EST > > In a message dated 2/6/2000 10:53:46 AM Central Standard Time, > fredrea@juno.com writes: > > << Did they operate in long blocks or one at two at a time? Do they belong > at the front of my passenger train, in my mail train, or in a freight? >> > > In a freight. They were LCL (less than carload cars) so could be loaded at a > freight house. In one application Train LCL-1 which traveled Chicago-New > Jersey, picked up cars from various freight forwarders in Chicago, two online > and one offline (not all were special Merchandise cars) . I assume, but can't > verify that these cars would have been logical to be spotted at these freight > forwarders. What I am wondering, in view of the fact these type of cars on > all railroads (SP Overnight, B&O timesaver, NYC Pacemaker, MP Eagle) seldom > left home rails, is whether they at least traveled to the other > freighthouse/freight forwarders in Chicago that were reached via transfer > service. > > In practice, these cars began to get scattered and dispersed. I would enjoy > hearing from anyone who "was there" and could confirm whether they ever ran > in any long blocks after the initial publicity photos. Most videos I see > show from two to 5 scattered in a train. > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Amherst Show Report > From: > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:43:56 EST > > Folks, > > Just got back from the "Big-E" show in Springfield, MA - lots of excitement > to report on the PRR front in HO scale (much of this may be old news to those > "in the know" but it was news to me). First, the C&BT shops X-29B should be > out by April - they are still working on the underframe, tho' there were a > couple nice shells on display in both circle and shadow Keystone. Sheepscot > had the hull for the Pennsy tugboat, full kit should be finished at some > point, and Stewart says the VO-1000 is still on the back burner, and may be > out by the end of 2000 if we're lucky. Best news of all was from Bethlehem > Car Works - they had the 40' van trailer on display - a nice model, though I > passed on picking several up because (I believe) they post-date my 1956-57 > modeling era. Next up, however, are the (early) 35' van trailers. Following > this is the R-50b express refrigerator (!) (! again), also another stock car > (I believe the K-8, although I was so blown away when I heard "R50" that I'm > not sure I heard correctly). Looks like HO modelers have a lot to look > forward to! > > Mike in MA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Amherst show > From: > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:38:43 EST > > Like Mike I have just returned from the show. I on the other hand was on the > other side of the table most of the time. Made many Pennsy sales during the > weekend. Pennsylvania devotees were out there in full force. Did check out > the other vendors and I agree, the BCW van trailers are really nice. Dayna > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Correct Lettering/logo for Plug Door Boxcar > From: "Jim Cullen" > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 21:57:35 -0500 > > I'm just getting into painting and decaling for my model railroad and have a > few 40' plug door boxcars to do in the PRR scheme. Where can I find info, or > picture, on the type and placement of lettering, type of logo, misc > lettering, etc, that were typical of this type of car for the PRR? Thanks. > Jim > > ----------------------------------------------- > Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (N-Scale) > http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen > > Jim's Railroad Pictures > http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Boilers > From: "Bill Daniels" > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 20:10:34 -0700 > > Doug and all > > As has been mentioned several times already, the boilers on the K4s class > and the L1s class were indeed itentical. This was done not to allow > interchangable boilers between classes (although I read where one K4s > locomotive recieved a boiler from a Lima-built L1s, and while the badge > plate was changed to reflect the new locomotive class, the builder > designation read "Lima". Interesting...if true) but to simplify > manufacturing, and reduce costs, always a consideration on the Pennsy. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > End of PRR-Talk Digest > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:56:36 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW cars (was:Amherst Show Report) Apparently all of BCW's future products will be brass sides. I asked why they did this when the plastic sided models were sold for so much less. He replied that the mold for plastic sides were too expensive! So why do the brass sided cars cost so much more if the tooling cost so much less?? Be prepared for the R50b to be another $70 car :-( On the plus side he was selling off the remaining inventory of B60 baggage car sides, roofs, and floors (no ends) for $0.50 a part. Since I will build them with a brass floor for weight, I just bought the roofs and sides. That's $1.50 per car!! Now there's a bargain. I bought 5 cars worth. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Park Varieties wrote: > > Did Bethlehem Car Works happen to mention if the R50b will have plastic or > etched brass sides? > > Frank Brua > > Ljgurke@aol.com wrote: > > > Folks, > > > > Just got back from the "Big-E" show in Springfield, MA - lots of excitement > > to report on the PRR front in HO scale (much of this may be old news to those > > "in the know" but it was news to me). First, the C&BT shops X-29B should be > > out by April - they are still working on the underframe, tho' there were a > > couple nice shells on display in both circle and shadow Keystone. Sheepscot > > had the hull for the Pennsy tugboat, full kit should be finished at some > > point, and Stewart says the VO-1000 is still on the back burner, and may be > > out by the end of 2000 if we're lucky. Best news of all was from Bethlehem > > Car Works - they had the 40' van trailer on display - a nice model, though I > > passed on picking several up because (I believe) they post-date my 1956-57 > > modeling era. Next up, however, are the (early) 35' van trailers. Following > > this is the R-50b express refrigerator (!) (! again), also another stock car > > (I believe the K-8, although I was so blown away when I heard "R50" that I'm > > not sure I heard correctly). Looks like HO modelers have a lot to look > > forward to! > > > > Mike in MA > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Re Smithsonian Photo collection Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:53:38 -0500 Just want to say thank you to all the people who sent me contact names and correct addresses, both snail mail and e-mail for the Smithsonian and other museums with extensive photo collections. These research tools are greatly appreciated. Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:11:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] K4s #958 assignment List, Does anyone have a record of Loco Assignments for the 1930, 1940 and finally the 1950's time periods? I am interested in where K4 #958 spent its' carer or most of it during these time periods. I have a photo of #958 taken in the mid 1930's. It has a very brightly painted graphite color smokebox. I assume it may have been in lease service on the Long Island at that time. The K was scrapped in 1955. Where did she last see service is also a question I have. TIA....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:21:18 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Shelbyville branch Hello: Is anyone sufficiently acquainted with the former PRR in and around Shelbyville, Indiana to know about the "Lateral Railway" spur? My own trip there was in 1989--long before I had access to a CT1000--and I haven't been back since. The PRR maintained a spur on the southwest side of town which was approximately 1.2 miles long, and roughly 0.8 miles SW of the "Vine" interlocking crossing with the Big Four. This particular piece of track, used to access customers, was the last surviving piece of the Jeffersonville Railroad's branch from Edinburg, Indiana which had been abandoned in 1855. Since I did not know about it in 1989, I made no effort to search it out--or its ROW. Has anyone done so? Or is it still in place yet? Richard Wallis Wheaton, Il. PS--For all those so inclined looking for a semi-bucolic Lines West branch to model, the Shelbyville branch has much recommend itself for consideration. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:41:16 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Eastern/Central time > The Standard Time Act was passed in 1918, so in 1916, > in principle, only the railroads cared about where the > time zone boundaries were. I suggest that Pittsburg > was a logical place, even though it was 3 degrees too > far east, 2.5 degrees. By some freak occurance 80 degrees west longitude runs right through the "Golden Triangle". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Yahoo Club Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:46:35 -0500 Hi List, I have posted some of my PRR Diesel wreck photos to the new Yahoo Pennsylvania Railroad club photo section. You can see them by going to http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/pennslyvaniarailroad . It is free to join but you have to have a Yahoo I.D. There were list members who wanted a chat room. Yahoo gives us one free. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Yahoo Club Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:15:33 -0800 Um, pennslyvania is misspelled? > ---------- > From: Bill Lane[SMTP:BLane@wilmar.com] > Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 9:46 AM > To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' > Subject: [PRR] Yahoo Club > > Hi List, > > I have posted some of my PRR Diesel wreck photos to the new Yahoo > Pennsylvania Railroad club photo section. You can see them by going to > http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/pennslyvaniarailroad > . It is free to join > but you have to have a Yahoo I.D. There were list members who wanted a > chat > room. Yahoo gives us one free. > > Thank You > Bill > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:17:32 -0500 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW cars (was:Amherst Show Report) I wonder if BCW knows that Sunshine is doing the R50b. I talked to Martin about this at the last two annual meetings. Last year, he expected it to be ready for this year's meeting. It will obviously be resin, and it won't cost $70. By the way, there has been a discussion on the freight car list about the accuracy of the Sunshine X29. Apparently, it is really an X28 or N&W BPa. News to me. The X28 and N&W cars have a greater inside height than the X29. I assume, then, that the Sunshine X29 Express car, which I have 2 under construction, are wrong. Was there an X28 Express car? Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:35:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW cars (was:Amherst Show Report) From: Jerry Britton On 2/7/00 2:17 PM, Dave Pfeiffer (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > I wonder if BCW knows that Sunshine is doing the R50b. I talked to > Martin about this at the last two annual meetings. Last year, he expected > it to be ready for this year's meeting. It will obviously be resin, and > it won't cost $70. > Guess I was sleeping under a rock, as I didn't know Sunshine was working on it either. The R50b has placed very high, if not the highest, in each of the past to annual "PRR-Talk Needs Assessment Surveys" done in November. I don't care who does it, as long as someone does! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:02:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW cars (was:Amherst Show Report) n 2/7/00 2:17 PM, Dave Pfeiffer (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > I wonder if BCW knows that Sunshine is doing the R50b. I talked to > Martin about this at the last two annual meetings. Last year, he expected > it to be ready for this year's meeting. It will obviously be resin, and > it won't cost $70. > To which Jerry replied: --- Guess I was sleeping under a rock, as I didn't know Sunshine was working on it either. The R50b has placed very high, if not the highest, in each of the past to annual "PRR-Talk Needs Assessment Surveys" done in November. I don't care who does it, as long as someone does! --- To which I must add that I don't think you were sleeping under a large rock, Jerry. Sunshine keeps a disappointingly low profile by keeping itself something of a trade secret, and by not selling through dealers, unless they've changed lately. Last time I saw an advertisement of their's was in either MRING or MRJ, I can't recall which. It's quite difficult to find out what they're working on, and therefore easy to miss out on their products. Rather like Yankee Clipper and Westrail. Perhaps you could get hold of those folks and ask them to let you/us know when they get ready to put out something in Pennsy? Just a thought. Regards, Barry Peltier --------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:59:56 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW cars (was:Amherst Show Report) Re your last on the R50b. Sunshine is a bit of a misnomer! Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:19:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW cars (was:Amherst Show Report) In a message dated 2/7/2000 3:05:00 PM Central Standard Time, tmahon@cfnh.com writes: << Re your last on the R50b. Sunshine is a bit of a misnomer! >> You lost me on this comment. I've only built 4 of the dozen or so Sunshine kits I own, but like them all and have had nothing but cooperation with the owner and his wife. Building their kits beats sitting around waiting for one of the mass producers to tool a shake-the-box kit for some unique car. This last sentence doesn't mean I want to build any fleets of resin kits by any supplier--I would really like a mass-produced K7 or K8 stockcar and I wouldn't want to build a fleet of X29s that way, either, though I have a couple of the REA kits purchased before the Red Caboose version. I would like to know if they are really X28s, though. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 22:41:09 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Correct Lettering/logo for Plug Door Boxcar Jim, First look up Rob Schoenberg's PRR site (Jerry's Keystone Crossings has a link); Rob has pages for most major PRR freight car classes that should get you off to a good start. Some, but not all pages have photo links. Also, purchase Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger equipment, Volume 2 (Volume I is out of print, but get it if you find it; both volumes are priceless). Doug Jim Cullen wrote: > I'm just getting into painting and decaling for my model railroad and have a > few 40' plug door boxcars to do in the PRR scheme. Where can I find info, or > picture, on the type and placement of lettering, type of logo, misc > lettering, etc, that were typical of this type of car for the PRR? Thanks. > Jim > > ----------------------------------------------- > Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (N-Scale) > http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen > > Jim's Railroad Pictures > http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:30:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] C-Liner Info Jerry, List Check out Walthers new listings for upcoming loco releases. The C-Liners are now listed. $75.00 list. PRR is included. Here is the url. Scroll down the list. ....Gary http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200002/Locomotive Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:49:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BCW cars (was:Amherst Show Report) Dave and all, (Major snip) << Was there an X28 Express car? Dave Pfeiffer >> NO Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:06:17 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR items at Springfield While at the Springfield Mass. show this weekend the following items were spotted. C&BT shops had the final body shots of the X-29b on display. Some work on the underframe needs to be done but Dick said he expects to ship before the summer. Stewart had their C-630 in PRR and PC paint on display, the painted units will be shipping within a week.Stewart will also be re-releasing their RS-12 and AS-616 units this summer/fall. The 616 will utilize the new tri mount truck as used on the C-628/630 so it should be a good runner. Bethlehem Car Works had their new 40' PRR Truc Train trailer for sale as posted before. John has decided to sell the decals seperately for $6 and they are available now. The next trailer project will be the 32' tandem axle PRR trailer, Curt La Rue is helping John Greene with the decal info on these releases. BCW also intends to do a brass side R-50b and is considering a R-60 as well. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 06:32:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info From: Jerry Britton On 2/7/00 11:30 PM, Gary Mittner at (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Check out Walthers new listings for upcoming loco releases. The > C-Liners are now listed. $75.00 list. PRR is included. Here is the url. > Scroll down the list. ....Gary > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200002/Locomotive > Good catch! I just checked the Walthers site yesterday around mid-day and there were no new locos posted yet! I have added these to my eStore, for Advance Reservation. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 07:34:26 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info Has anyone on this list been able to confirm that Life-Like will add the fourth exhaust fan for the U.S. road names? Pictures I have seen of the Canadian models clearly show only three fans. Frank Brua Gary Mittner wrote: > Jerry, List > > Check out Walthers new listings for upcoming loco releases. The > C-Liners are now listed. $75.00 list. PRR is included. Here is the url. > Scroll down the list. ....Gary > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200002/Locomotive > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:00:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info Frank, List I too have seen the 3 fan Canadian versions on that one website. I can't confirm the US releases will have the 4 fan set up but one would believe that LifeLike will make that extra fan as part of an interchangable piece that will contain 4 fans. If not, then LifeLike Proto would have produced their 1st "really big" blunder. If they do not make the 4th fan I am sure Detail Associates, Cannon Cab or someone else will fill the void for this part.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] C-Liner Info Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:17:45 -0500 List: Since the C-liner is going to be a "Proto 1000", I have a sneaking suspicion that only the 3-fan version will be available. After all, LL did not accommodate the Proto 1000 F-3A in PRR with the passenger pilot. Since LL will not be coming out with a B unit C-liner, I wonder how the old AHM B unit will compare. The quality on the B units were not too bad and the detail on the dummy trucks was actually pretty good. With little modifications, I think that the AHM B-unit could match up well with the Proto 1000 A-units. Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 9:00 AM To: parkvarieties@provide.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info Frank, List I too have seen the 3 fan Canadian versions on that one website. I can't confirm the US releases will have the 4 fan set up but one would believe that LifeLike will make that extra fan as part of an interchangable piece that will contain 4 fans. If not, then LifeLike Proto would have produced their 1st "really big" blunder. If they do not make the 4th fan I am sure Detail Associates, Cannon Cab or someone else will fill the void for this part.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:37:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] C-Liner Info Ted, List I believe that I read somewhere that these C-Liners, although marketed as Proto 1000, are better than the F-3 of the same release. Although not up to Proto 2000 standard, it was qouted these should actually be a released as a Proto 1500. Detail is better than the 1000 but not as good as 2000. So maybe there will be a few interchangable parts. Only speculating on that.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:53:35 -0500 Given that the C-Liners are a Proto 1000 release, not Proto 2000, there's a good chance that they'll have the wrong fans. Hopefully I'm wrong though! Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: parkvarieties@provide.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info >Frank, List > > I too have seen the 3 fan Canadian versions on that one website. I >can't confirm the US releases will have the 4 fan set up but one would >believe that LifeLike will make that extra fan as part of an >interchangable piece that will contain 4 fans. If not, then LifeLike >Proto would have produced their 1st "really big" blunder. If they do not >make the 4th fan I am sure Detail Associates, Cannon Cab or someone else >will fill the void for this part.....Gary > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:26:10 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] C-Liner Info On Tue, 8 Feb 2000, Andrews, Ted wrote: > Since LL will not be coming out with a B unit C-liner, I wonder how the old > AHM B unit will compare. The quality on the B units were not too bad and the > detail on the dummy trucks was actually pretty good. With little > modifications, I think that the AHM B-unit could match up well with the > Proto 1000 A-units. The rivet strips on the AHM are huge, way out of scale. The fans are ugly. My thought is if they really don't do a B unit I'm going to mash 2 A units together and do the necessary roof work, to get a B unit (probably 2x) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:48:47 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] WWII troop cars Hi All, In following up on the comment here that Cannonball was releasing Troop Sleepers, and a comment Bob Hundeman said about Red Ball releasing brass sides for Bowser Round roof cars to make PRR Troop Sleepers, I found that these are listed by Model Railroad Warehouse (http://www.mrrwarehouse.com). I understand that Pullman built about 2400 Troop Sleepers, and ACF built 800 kitchen cars. These of course, were in addition to the round roof PRR conversions (excellent article on these in a recent Keystone, BTW). I know that the Pullman & ACF cars were seen on the PRR...does anyone know if troop trains would mix PRR and Pullman cars, or how common the Pullman and ACF cars were in relation to the PRR cars? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:10:19 -0500 There is one point to remember. Even though the product is a Proto-1000 (Maybe thought of as a Proto-1500 since the handrails will be separate), the project is NOT a Life Like project. The project was funded by their Canadian distributor. In the same way that Life Like has produced exclusive Canadian offerings for them, they are providing exclusive USA road names for Life Like. By the way, the price for the single A unit (in a road not mentionable here!) is $80 and NOT the $40 that appears on the LL order sheets. Also, the dates on the order sheet are NOT correct. We hope to have the correct delivery information in the RAILROAD TELEGRAPH on our web site later today. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:12:36 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars --- "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: Since I was 5 when WW2 began, all this comes through the fog of many years. On the other hand, the house faced the PRR main in Latrobe, and there wasn't any TV to watch, so... > sides for Bowser Round roof cars to make PRR Troop > Sleepers, I do believe that the PRR boxcar conversions were used in commuter trains, not troop trains. Never say never, but... Derry, PA was the eastern end of the commuter district on the main line, so all or nearly all locals from Pgh passed through Latrobe. I do remember seeing many converted boxcar commuter trains, sometimes mixed with P54 coaches, but I don't recall seeing any in troop trains. > I understand that Pullman built about 2400 Troop > Sleepers, and ACF built > 800 kitchen cars. > I know that the Pullman & ACF cars were seen on the > PRR...does anyone know > if troop trains would mix PRR and Pullman cars, or > how common the Pullman > and ACF cars were in relation to the PRR cars? Again, NSN. I may have seem trains of mixed "boxcar" and "passenger car" equipment, but they didn't stick in my mind. I suspect, therefore, that the two tended to be used in separate trains. What was mixed: Many troop trains in 1944 and '45 were mixed trains in the usual sense of the term. One would see some number of flat and/or gondola cars loaded with tanks or other vehicles, followed by a few passenger cars, often of the boxcar type. Frequently several such trains would pass in quick succession, suggesting that one was seeing an entire battalion or perhaps regiment heading for the embarkation port. I believe that in those days a tank company consisted of 5 tanks along with assorted jeeps and trucks. If so, I'd say that two companies traveled in one train, with a larger unit using several trains. Infantry? No idea. In any case, toward the end of the war, most if not all of the troop trains I saw were mixed trains. Typically one saw such trains moving eastward through Latrobe; empty trains heading west. Once V-E day came to pass, about the next week one started to see loaded troop trains moving west. For a few years after the war, a kitchen car would show up on the team tracks in Latrobe. Eventually a string of passenger cars would join it, all in aid of getting the local National Guard company to summer camp. I don't know when that practice ended, as we moved to the other end of town in 1948 and I saw less of things PRR. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] k4 &L1 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:34:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BF7230.E8F48980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Look closely at the ashpans on either the K4 or L1. You should notice = some sort of tube that attahces in 3 to 4 spots on the ashpan and loops = dow between each attachment point. Any ideas what this is?? Kris ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BF7230.E8F48980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Look closely at the ashpans on either the K4 or = L1. =20 You should notice some sort of tube that attahces in 3 to 4 spots on the = ashpan=20 and loops dow between each attachment point.  Any ideas what this=20 is??
 
Kris
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01BF7230.E8F48980-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: steveh@dotstar.net (Stephen Hoxie) Subject: Re: [PRR] k4 &L1 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:11:19 -0800 Kris--If we are looking at the same thing, that "tube" is actually a hose with a metal "wand" on the end which could be handled by hostlers to help in cleaning the fires/ashes. However, I do not know if it was used for steam, air, or water. It also appears on M1's and I1's. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:50:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Photo of Railroad Delivering Newspapers Needed From: Jerry Britton I am looking for a photo, PRR or otherwise, prototype or highly detailed scale model, of newspapers being offloaded from a box car or mail car. Anyone? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:01:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] HH-1, 99.9% done. PRR Modelers, Well, my Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 conversion from ex-N&W to PRR Class HH-1 #374 is just about to see service now. Only one small detail remains to be applied, the buiders plates. More on that later. I know several of you are planning on this conversion too. There may also be lurkers here too who are also interested in this loco so I thought I would share my experience in the make over and hope that it maybe of help to you. The following is what I did. I tried to list them in order from start to finish. Here goes. I started with a decorated (N&W #2019) 2-8-8-2. This one seems to be a good match, correct for details found on the Pennsy #374 after it was in months of service. I will start with the tender. Although a little short for the Pennsy tender we have to use it as is. You could extend it but I prefer not to get into that kind of surgery. First thing I did was remove the body shell. Remove the ladders and air tank details . They are just press fit details. I would have liked to remove the doghouse but this was glued. I used Scalecoat stripper to remove the paint and lettering from the tender shell. That went very quick. To model the PRR tender details you need only to purchase 2 additional items. First Item is the PRR Style Headlight used for the Backup Light. It is Cal-scale part # 190-477. You will notice the tender already has a backup light. This is the N&W version that is molded into the back end. I couldn't find any photo proof if it was removed or not. I left it in. To install the PRR light you must first snip off the small railing located on the rear of the tender deck. As is it interfers wih the headlight placement. It would be the engineers side. The new PRR light will fit fit between the remaining stantions from the railing you snipped off. Drill hole and glue in place. The other detail parts are the PRR Marker Lights. The ones I used were made by Cary. I do not recall the part number. They come in a package of 6. 2 are on angled brakets (unused for this project) and 4 plain ones. 2 are used on the tender and two will be used on the Loco. The ones on the tender are located on the tender deck in the rear corners. They are placed at the outside corners of the railings. If you have the tender you will see what I mean. Remove the fake looking coal load. It just pushes up from the bottom. Replace the ladders and airtank. At this point you should be ready to paint the body shell. The masking of the windows in the doghouse must be done prior to painting. For paint I used Scalecoat Brunswick Green with the right amount of Scalecoat Loco Black to get my shade of DGLE I am satisfied with. You can use your own formula. Once painted I Gloss coat the shell for decaling later. For decals I used Champ # EH-9LD. This is for Long Distance Tenders. Use the shorter of the 2 supplied on the sheet. Do the decaling like you normally do. After a day or so I like to spray anoher light coat of Gloss over the decals. Let that dry and then I sprayed my Dulcoat finish. After that is dry you can snap the shell back onto the chassis. I completed the tender with a new coal load. First I placed a piece of foam into the coal space cavity. You don't want anything to get into the electronic board that is inside the tender. I then mixed my coal with elmers glue and a drop of water and placed it onto the foam. I eventually weathered the tender when final assembly was complete. You can now place marker jewels into those Markers you placed on earlier. I used Red to the rear, Red to the outsides, Amber to the front and amber to he inside. That more or less is the job needed to convert the N&W Tender into a PRR version. If not for the shortness of the tender, 16,000+ gallons and coal capacity compared to the correct 18,000+ gallons and larger coal capacity, this captures the look I was hoping for. Now on to the Locomotive itself. In another email post ofcourse. Stay tuned.....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:01:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars In a message dated 2/8/2000 9:57:56 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << I know that the Pullman & ACF cars were seen on the PRR...does anyone know if troop trains would mix PRR and Pullman cars, or how common the Pullman and ACF cars were in relation to the PRR cars? >> Sorry, Bruce, to add questions rather than answers, but I have three more: 1. Did the PRR troop sleepers travel offline? 2. Did any of the Pullman sleepers (not kitchen cars) make it to the Korean War? I suspect not, since by then spare heavyweights were in abundance. I know the U.S. Army kitchen cars were still in use then. Good question for the passenger list? 3. I asked this question before, with no answer, but what exactly was a PU84, as listed in Korean War troop trains? As far as use of the Pullman cars, the book Pennsy Streamliners has a shot of a troop train leaving Chicago at 21st St. drawbridge. Looks like a long string of the Pullman troop sleepers/US Army kitchen cars; can't see the end of the train, but no PRR cars in sight. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:28:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars In a message dated 2/8/2000 1:15:05 PM Central Standard Time, I asked: << 1. Did the PRR troop sleepers travel offline? >> I guess if I had first reread the fine article by Ian Fischer in the Autumn 98 Keystone, I would have known the answer to this question. The P30A sleepers were leased to the Pullman Company which used them interchangeably with the Pullman troop sleepers. Since there were 40 of them compared to 2400 Pullman cars, you can imagine the ratio. But these tuscan red cars apparently made it all over the country. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:43:57 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info Perhaps the most appropriate way to conclude this rapidly-becoming-redundant discussion (and no one is more anxious to see the LL release more than me) is to recognize that the best way to make a decision on whether to buy is to preview one at a show or hobby shop when it finally comes out (I note that the Walthers announcement does not yet include an expected release date). I believe it's safe to say that, at this point, the dye has been manufactured, if not cast. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 14:01:40 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars Bob asked: >Sorry, Bruce, to add questions rather than answers, but I have three more: >1. Did the PRR troop sleepers travel offline? Yes, in fact they had the Allied full cushion trucks as a requirement for off-prr use. The cars used in coach service were captive and so used a PRR truck. >2. Did any of the Pullman sleepers (not kitchen cars) make it to the Korean >War? I suspect not, since by then spare heavyweights were in abundance. I >know the U.S. Army kitchen cars were still in use then. Good question for >the passenger list? The Model Railroad Warehouse page at: http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/troop1.htm has a nice history of these cars including their various post WWII uses and adaptations. Interestingly, people modleing in the immediate post war era should consider that it took a long time to decommission the vast number of men and women in uniform, and that troop trains were common for at least a couple of years after the war was over. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:11:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner Info Does any one know where I can get photos of Pennsy diesel freight and passenger operations from the final years of independent operation for a book on the Pennsy that I am working on? I need some and other illustrative material to illustrate the book that I am working on. Please get back to me at GenJim833@aol.com. Thank you. James Mancuso Perry, NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:42:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR HH-1, 99.9% done PRR Modelers,         I hope I didn't loose you on the tender conversion. That was just the easy part. Now on to the Loco.This is rather long.       The first step into this conversion is simple. Just remove the marker lights and the round number plate on the boiler front. They are just press fit also. Have a small storage box handy as there will be more small parts you don't want to misplace. Now remove the Whistle located in the steam dome. Another press fit detail. Now with a small screw driver, insert the tip into the hole where the whistle was at. Pop the dome off. Okay, Now you will see a small screw inside there. Remove that and the plastic disc too. This is what holds the boiler top down on the boiler bottom. Slowly remove the boiler top. I don't recall anything else keeping it from being completely removed. You may have to jiggle the cab front though. Set the Boiler top half aside. Your major work will be involved with that in a second. Now remove the cab. Watch out for the 2 hand rails located at the back. They will need to be twisted to remove them from the holes so the cab will come completely off. Inspect the windows of the cab noting how they are inserted. Now you can remove them. If you want, you can remove the cab numbers at this time. All I did to remove that was use a piece of 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper. Use water for lubrication. the numbers come right off. Watch the rivit detail!!! In the box the Loco came in is 3 small detail parts. These ae the deflectors that are attached to the cab roof top. The 2 small ones go on the hatches and the large one on the rear. Inside the cab you will see dimples for the holes that need to be drill for mounting these piece. Once drilled, you can glue these pieces in place. That done, you may also mask off the inside of the cab for when it comes time to paint. You do not want the green interrior to be painted over.         Now back to the boiler. See those holes that were left when you removed the marker lights from the boiler front? Those have to be filled in with putty. I used Sqaudron Green Putty. Several applications and sanding were needed to get a smooth finished service. Again, Whatch out for the rivit detail!!! Let that dry for a few days, you may need another application due to the putty shrinking. Lets move on to another part of the boiler. Those Builders Plates need to be removed. Photos show that the Standard PRR Oval Builders Plates were attached when in service on the PRR. The molded on Alco plates are easily removed with a small file and cleaned up with 600 grit sand paper. To get a better work area for the file, you need to remove the short walk ways on both sides of the boiler. Again, press fit detail parts so they are easily removed and replaced later. Now there is a problem. There are no available PRR Oval Builders Plates for an HH-1. Yet, that is. Hopefully Like-Like will produce a set for the PRR 2-8-8-2 they plan on releasing in the future. I am also contacting Schukyll Division, a maker of HO Scale Builders Plates, to see if he will produce a set for an HH-1. I believe Rick Tipton supplied enough info on these so maybe they will get produced. Some modelers may wish to avoid removing the molded on Builders Plates. The option of leaving them alone is up to you. I want mine to have the Oval Plates. Stay tuned for more on those.         Okay, lets get back to the boiler front. Hopefully you have access to some photos of the PRR HH-1. You will notice most have the PRR style Marker (Class) lights attached to the boiler front, at least later in life on the Pennsy. The Marker Lights from the Cary set as described earlier in the tender conversion is what I used for these. However, you need to make a bracket for these to set on. It is very hard to explain what they look like. Each bracket is made of angled (L shapped) metal. The part that attaches flush to the boiler front is in the shape of a V. Again, you need to view photos. I made my brackets out of sheet brass, formed, shaped, cut and soldered together. Yes they are tiny but they came out fine. You can use styrene if you prefer. The locations of the brackets are a little higher that the ones you removed. I would say roughly 10 oclock and 2 oclock. Slightly higher though. I glued these to the smokebox. Now the Markers need to be prepped for installation. You will see they have a mounting lug. Those need to be removed. I used a dremel machine. Once those are removed (all the way up the the legs of the Marker pedistal), make sure they sit flat too, you can glue these on to the brackets. You can now intsall the famous Keystone Number plate too. Be careful how you handle the boiler now, those marker lights stick out so they may easily be knocked loose.         Remove that small piping that wraps around the rear of the smoke box section. Watch out becuase it goes under the handrails. A little tricky replacing it but it needs to be removed for masking later.         I think you are now ready to do some painting. Again I used my version of DGLE. All that needs to be painted is the top half of the boiler and the cab. You ask what about the bottom half of the boiler. Well, here is my answer. My version of DGLE, (especially when weatherd), is hard to tell apart from black. So mix your version of DGLE on the black side or you will see the difference when you put the boiler halves back together. You could tear the loco competely apart to do the bottom half of the boiler as well. I didn't find it nesesasry. While you are painting the boiler top and the cab, spray a little (with care) on the cylinder sheetings. The drivers should also be DGLE. With great care this can be accomplished while the chassis is under power. You can decide if you want to go that far. I did and it worked fine.       After the boiler has dried, mask off for the Graphite color smokebox. Try to match this color to the orginal proto 2000 color becuase when you attach the boiler top to the bottom you will see any differences in color when you look at the loco from the front end. Brush paint the Keystone with your favorite color of red. You may wish to gloss coat the cab and Keystone for the decaling step. Once dry you can use the numbers from the Champ Decal set EH-9Ld. Dulcoat everything and reassemble your loco in reverse order. Don't forget most of those little detail pieces too. I didn't like the bright red/orange window frames so I used a black wash on those to give it a weathered look. Once the loco was completely rebuilt I took it back down to the paint shop and did the complete weathering job to blend everything together.                 You can't tell if this is a plastic model or a Brass import. Like I said, all I need is the builders plates installed to finish this project. This was not a difficult project. Most of you maybe completly lost though. If you have the loco in front of you while reading this you can get a feel as to what steps are needed to finsh the loco. I assume most modelers can accomplish this. If you decide to go ahead and do it and find yourself in trouble, let me know, I will see if I can be of more help. Photos of mine should be avilable for posting next week. Thanks for your time and interest......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 16:40:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] C-Liners -- The Word From Life Like From: Jerry Britton I just got off the phone with the R&D department at Life Like. Here is what I have found out about the Proto 1000 C-Liners: * Will have correct grillwork * Will have correct number of fans (4 for PRR) * will have correct number of headlights (1 or 2) * will have separate grapbs and ladders (consumer applied) Good news!!! No ETA has been set. "Merchandise Service" is accepting Advance Reservations. There are three PRR road numbers. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:43:14 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Porthole Window Origins? From: "Doug and Marianne" Greetings: Can anyone shed some light on the origins of the porthole (circular) windows that make some Pennsy equipment so unique? These windows were used on the N5c cabin cars, B60b and B70 baggage cars, and other equipment. Was this an art-deco aesthetic touch, or was there some functional reason for the round windows? Seems like round glazing would be more difficult to maintain and replace than rectangular glazing. Did Raymond Loewy have anything to do with this? Thanks for any help. Doug N Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:44:51 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] k4 &L1 --Boundary_(ID_JnqhCjm1r8nMtc3ZeaKXKw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris and the list, I'm just as stumped on this one. The only observation I'll make is that this piping doesn't seem to appear on K4s/L1s engines before the late 1930s. Doug Kris Kollar wrote: > Look closely at the ashpans on either the K4 or L1. You should notice > some sort of tube that attahces in 3 to 4 spots on the ashpan and > loops dow between each attachment point. Any ideas what this > is?? Kris --Boundary_(ID_JnqhCjm1r8nMtc3ZeaKXKw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kris and the list,

I'm just as stumped on this one.  The only observation I'll make is that this piping doesn't seem to appear on K4s/L1s engines before the late 1930s.

Doug

Kris Kollar wrote:

Look closely at the ashpans on either the K4 or L1.  You should notice some sort of tube that attahces in 3 to 4 spots on the ashpan and loops dow between each attachment point.  Any ideas what this is?? Kris
--Boundary_(ID_JnqhCjm1r8nMtc3ZeaKXKw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:06:47 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Trucks for HO R50b Hello list, Now that it looks like I'll be getting some affordable R50bs (I would love the Rail Classics R50s, but I need a fleet), can any of you tell me when the R50s began receiving Kiesel trucks in place of the 2DP5s? I'm guessing that it occurred in the 1950s as many of the Kiesel tenders were scrapped (along with the beautiful steamers they ran with....sigh), but I'd like a more specific date, preferrably to the year, if possible. For some reason, I have trouble with the Eastern Car Works 2DP5s (and no trouble with the rest of their kits; they're great), and I'd prefer to use the Kiesel trucks (under tenders they were classified 2FT2, I've suffered a brain dump and forgotten their classification when used under B60s and R50s). Thanks in advance! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 19:11:42 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Don't use Walthers Goo on Westerfield kits! Hello list, I'm building a Westerfield GLa hopper, and I've found that using too much Walthers Goo on Westerfield's resin causes it to warp and buckle. I was planning on weathering and denting my GLa, but this was a bit more than I had planned for. I thought I could use Goo because I'd used it to secure weights on my Sunshine Models X31f and it worked perfectly there. My semieducated guess is that Westerfield's resin is different from Sunshine's and it bubbles when exposed to too much goo, even when painted, as my car is. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:21:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Trucks for HO R50b Doug, I don't ever recall seeing Kiesel Trucks on the R50b's. You may be thinking of the B-60's. The R50b's had trucks similar to the P-70 coaches. Anyone else see Kiesel trucks on this car? Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SNY114@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 20:52:22 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Smithsonian Photo Collection Hi all. Lew Matt wrote: "Just want to say thank you to all the people who sent me contact names and correct addresses, both snail mail and e-mail, for the Smithsonian and other museums with extensive photo collections. These research tools are greatly appreciated." I think it would be nice if this information could be made available to the whole list. Better yet, perhaps some one could compile a list of such addresses and place it on a web site where it could be easily found. Jim Anderson Thorndale, PA sny114@aol.com PRRT&HS 3995 Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of Railroad Delivering Newspapers Needed Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:12:54 -0500 Mail car delivered newspapers would be in a pouch. Lew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 08:39:33 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of Railroad Delivering Newspapers Needed lew matt wrote: > Mail car delivered newspapers would be in a pouch. > Not always (as usual). If there was a large number of one newspaper, they were shipped in a bundle that was labeled for the consignee. I have seen picture of them being loaded onto a baggage cart from a head end car. Tom Mahon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 07:38:14 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Goo and Westerfield This is no help to an already damaged car, but a suggestion on how to hold weights in freight cars. Go to your local Hardware / Discount Lumber store and get a roll of double sided tape, sometimes called Carpet tape. It comes in foam backed and regular. You can get one of each for about the current price of a tube of Goo. A couple of pieces on each weight ought to do the trick. I think you can use the foam tape for mounting can motors, too. Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:08:43 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liners -- The Word From Life Like Sorry Jerry: I disagree. This is not good news, this is FANTASTIC news!! Thanks for the info. Larry Jerry Britton wrote: > I just got off the phone with the R&D department at Life Like. Here is what > I have found out about the Proto 1000 C-Liners: > > * Will have correct grillwork > > * Will have correct number of fans (4 for PRR) > > * will have correct number of headlights (1 or 2) > > * will have separate grapbs and ladders (consumer applied) > > Good news!!! > > No ETA has been set. > > "Merchandise Service" is accepting Advance Reservations. There are three PRR > road numbers. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] InterMountain F-7's From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 08:20:02 -0600 Just looking at the InterMountain website and for new releases for February they are announcing the F-7A and F-7B Phase 1 in PRR. They will come in four numbers and are equipped with the passenger pilots and correct horizontal grilles. Suggested retail price is $74.95 for the A's and $64.95 for the B's. If anyone is interested in prices on these shells please contact me off line. Randy Williamson R&S Rail Stuff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:56:12 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] Smithsonian Photo Collection Here is my list: Images of old Pittsburgh: http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/pitttext-idx.pl?notisid=00awn7777m&type=header Hullett Unloaders: http://web.ulib.csuohio.edu/SpecColl/glihc/hulett/ Library of Congress: http://rs6.loc.gov/fsowhome.html Lew, please share *your* list with us. Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 10:02:25 -0500 From: "White, Don" Subject: [PRR] Sunshine models Can someone provide a web site or other contact information for Sunshine? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 10:08:39 -0500 From: Jeff Knorek Subject: [PRR] PRR/WAB/PM Fort St. Station Gang- A friend turned me on to this website about Fort St. Station: http://www.detnews.com/metro/hobbies/hotbox/fall93/union/union.htm Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Yes, i did it... Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:01:29 -0500 Hi List, Yes, I did it..I spelled Pennsylvania wrong when I started the Yahoo club. I am sorry ! I admit that I am a dyslexic typist. There is NO spell check when you are starting a Yahoo club. I contacted Yahoo to get it fixed, but alas, they can't fix it. So we are stuck with it. There are currently 4 members. What fun we are having.... Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:23:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars Hi gang, More on troop cars...I looked back at the Keystone last night, and the PRR cars were designed to be used in "sets" consisting of 3 sleepers, a kitchen car, a command car, and three more sleepers. In the end, the command car idea was dropped, and the sets consisted of 4 or 5 sleepers a kitchen car, and another 4 or 5 sleepers. These cars were leased to Pullman and lettered Pullman. At least early on they probably would have been seen in solid blocks and not split up or interspersed with the Pullman built sleepers. Also, in reviewing one of my PRR videos (Pennsy Steam and Electric vol 1?) there are shots of troop trains consisting of coaches and interspersed B60 baggage cars with open doors and wooden railings. The narrator claims that the B60s are being used as kitchen cars. Now, onto the modeling front. An email from Model RR Warehouse indicates that the PRR Troop cars from Red Ball will have porthole windows...so these will be prototypical for 1943 ONLY. The Pullman cars as used post war are available now, and the Pullman Sleepers as delivered will be available shortly. The ACF Kitchen Cars will be coming in the spring/summer I believe Jerry will be handling orders for these through Merchandise Service... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:23:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars Hi gang, More on troop cars...I looked back at the Keystone last night, and the PRR cars were designed to be used in "sets" consisting of 3 sleepers, a kitchen car, a command car, and three more sleepers. In the end, the command car idea was dropped, and the sets consisted of 4 or 5 sleepers a kitchen car, and another 4 or 5 sleepers. These cars were leased to Pullman and lettered Pullman. At least early on they probably would have been seen in solid blocks and not split up or interspersed with the Pullman built sleepers. Also, in reviewing one of my PRR videos (Pennsy Steam and Electric vol 1?) there are shots of troop trains consisting of coaches and interspersed B60 baggage cars with open doors and wooden railings. The narrator claims that the B60s are being used as kitchen cars. Now, onto the modeling front. An email from Model RR Warehouse indicates that the PRR Troop cars from Red Ball will have porthole windows...so these will be prototypical for 1943 ONLY. The Pullman cars as used post war are available now, and the Pullman Sleepers as delivered will be available shortly. The ACF Kitchen Cars will be coming in the spring/summer I believe Jerry will be handling orders for these through Merchandise Service... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 12:23:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars Hi gang, More on troop cars...I looked back at the Keystone last night, and the PRR cars were designed to be used in "sets" consisting of 3 sleepers, a kitchen car, a command car, and three more sleepers. In the end, the command car idea was dropped, and the sets consisted of 4 or 5 sleepers a kitchen car, and another 4 or 5 sleepers. These cars were leased to Pullman and lettered Pullman. At least early on they probably would have been seen in solid blocks and not split up or interspersed with the Pullman built sleepers. Also, in reviewing one of my PRR videos (Pennsy Steam and Electric vol 1?) there are shots of troop trains consisting of coaches and interspersed B60 baggage cars with open doors and wooden railings. The narrator claims that the B60s are being used as kitchen cars. Now, onto the modeling front. An email from Model RR Warehouse indicates that the PRR Troop cars from Red Ball will have porthole windows...so these will be prototypical for 1943 ONLY. The Pullman cars as used post war are available now, and the Pullman Sleepers as delivered will be available shortly. The ACF Kitchen Cars will be coming in the spring/summer I believe Jerry will be handling orders for these through Merchandise Service... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:55:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars From: Jerry Britton On 2/9/00 1:23 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Now, onto the modeling front. An email from Model RR Warehouse indicates > that the PRR Troop cars from Red Ball will have porthole windows...so these > will be prototypical for 1943 ONLY. The Pullman cars as used post war are > available now, and the Pullman Sleepers as delivered will be available > shortly. The ACF Kitchen Cars will be coming in the spring/summer > > I believe Jerry will be handling orders for these through Merchandise > Service... These are now available for Advance Reservation in our eStore. Thanks for the background info, Bruce! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:09:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars Bruce, Interesting info on the Troop Cars. Awhile back when Railworks imported brass cars of these Sleepers I passed on them. But then I seen an unpainted one at a train show. Half price I believe is what I got it for. It is the Port Hole version. I painted it Tuscan Red with Pullman letterhead and gave it appropriate numbers. You stated that this version is only appropriate for the 1943 time period? Does your info say anything about how many cars were port hole versions compared to square window versions?. What happened to them after 1943? Were they converted to something else? I don't know much on these cars at all. I bought one just to throw in one of my passenger trains. Would you think that 1 would appear in a train, (special movement)? .....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 15:55:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser List, Here is a question to get the scholars on this list to rack their brains a little. Along time ago (15-20 years ago) my dad was discussing with me something he read one day. I believe it was something he read in Model Railraoder 30-40 years ago. I no longer no what the answer was or even if he had the answer to this question. It had to do with the weight of Locomotives. I am talking "Scale Weight". Here is an example. If a Real K4 and tender weighed (400,000 lbs), thats a guess, what would that same K4 weigh in HO scale terms. An HO Scale K4 maybe weighs 2 lbs at the most. If I remember correctly, the answer was the model would be so heavy you couldn't pick it up. Would that be correct? There must be a formula to figure this out. Does anyone know it? I do not think the 1/87 figure comes into play here. That only deals with size, not weight. So this question goes out to the PHD's, the MD's, DMD's and all those other alphabet schalars. Any help on this one??? ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:08:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars Didn't some of them wind up in MOW applications? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:21:02 -0800 Weight scales with volume. Since volume represents 3 dimensions (length, width, height), the ratio of HO volume to prototype volume is (1/87)^3. Thus a 400,000 lb engine would be ((400,000/87)/87)/87 = 0.6 lb in HO. John > ---------- > From: mittner@webtv.net[SMTP:mittner@webtv.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 12:55 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser > > List, > > Here is a question to get the scholars on this list to rack their > brains a little. Along time ago (15-20 years ago) my dad was discussing > with me something he read one day. I believe it was something he read in > Model Railraoder 30-40 years ago. I no longer no what the answer was or > even if he had the answer to this question. It had to do with the weight > of Locomotives. I am talking "Scale Weight". Here is an example. If a > Real K4 and tender weighed (400,000 lbs), thats a guess, what would > that same K4 weigh in HO scale terms. An HO Scale K4 maybe weighs 2 lbs > at the most. If I remember correctly, the answer was the model would > be so heavy you couldn't pick it up. Would that be correct? There must > be a formula to figure this out. Does anyone know it? I do not think the > 1/87 figure comes into play here. That only deals with size, not weight. > So this question goes out to the PHD's, the MD's, DMD's and all those > other alphabet schalars. Any help on this one??? ....Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S HOBBIES" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:23:38 +0100 Gary, I calculate about .607 pounds. 1/(87X87X87). Dennis -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 10:06 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser List, Here is a question to get the scholars on this list to rack their brains a little. Along time ago (15-20 years ago) my dad was discussing with me something he read one day. I believe it was something he read in Model Railraoder 30-40 years ago. I no longer no what the answer was or even if he had the answer to this question. It had to do with the weight of Locomotives. I am talking "Scale Weight". Here is an example. If a Real K4 and tender weighed (400,000 lbs), thats a guess, what would that same K4 weigh in HO scale terms. An HO Scale K4 maybe weighs 2 lbs at the most. If I remember correctly, the answer was the model would be so heavy you couldn't pick it up. Would that be correct? There must be a formula to figure this out. Does anyone know it? I do not think the 1/87 figure comes into play here. That only deals with size, not weight. So this question goes out to the PHD's, the MD's, DMD's and all those other alphabet schalars. Any help on this one??? ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser Date: Wed, 9 Feb 100 16:30:16 -0500 (EST) I think I have your answer. If I'm reading this right, the reason for the *apparent* paradox is that the proper scale is not taken into account. Y'all know that HO is 1:87. The "shoot from the hip" answer, then, assuming the 400,000 lbs you mention below, is that the HO scale locomotive would weigh 400,000 / 87 = 4598 lbs. Here's the fallacy. Only *length* scales by 1 to 87. In other words, one dimension scales by that much, and one-dimensional things scale by that much. 2-dimensional things (layouts of yards, towns, etc) are 2-dimensional, and areas will scale by 1 to (87 times 87, which = 1 to 7569. 3-dimensional things, like steam locomotives, *volumes* of buildings, mountains, etc., will scale by 1:87 in each dimension, or 1 to (87 * 87 * 87) = 1 to 658503. Now, if we make the assumption that the locomotive's weight will scale by the same amount as its volume -- which is not exact, but is "close enough" -- then we come up with: 400,000 lbs / 658503 = 0.607 lbs, or 9.72 ounces, which is certainly a weight that can be picked up by any of us. Remember, this is a "back of the envelope calculation". When scaling a steam locomotive, you're scaling steel, air, and water. There may be limitations to the amount you can scale certain things if you expect them to be operational. E.g. piping of a given material has to be a certain thickness to withstand a certain pressure, regardless of the scale. So the ability to miniaturize does NOT guarantee it will work. But our (HO) models don't work the same way as the full-scale models do, anyway. Gary Mittner scribit: > > List, > > Here is a question to get the scholars on this list to rack their > brains a little. Along time ago (15-20 years ago) my dad was discussing > with me something he read one day. I believe it was something he read in > Model Railraoder 30-40 years ago. I no longer no what the answer was or > even if he had the answer to this question. It had to do with the weight > of Locomotives. I am talking "Scale Weight". Here is an example. If a > Real K4 and tender weighed (400,000 lbs), thats a guess, what would > that same K4 weigh in HO scale terms. An HO Scale K4 maybe weighs 2 lbs > at the most. If I remember correctly, the answer was the model would > be so heavy you couldn't pick it up. Would that be correct? There must > be a formula to figure this out. Does anyone know it? I do not think the > 1/87 figure comes into play here. That only deals with size, not weight. > So this question goes out to the PHD's, the MD's, DMD's and all those > other alphabet schalars. Any help on this one??? ....Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:43:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars In a message dated 2/9/2000 2:24:23 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Would you think that 1 would appear in a train, (special movement)? >> As I understand it, a "Main" as the troop movements were called, could consist of as few as one car (that sounds like questionable English, but ...) in a regular train. You certainly see videos with only one or two in a train, up to a string of 24 or so (Bruce mentioned the sets of 8 cars in the original plan. The Keystone article mentioned they were usually moved in a group of 3 sets , i.e., 24 cars in a train except when the ruling grade dropped it to two sets, or a total of 16 cars.) I have one decorated brass Hallmark version of the Pullman. I plan to use it with a kitchen car (also brass, both cars picked up at a swap meet) , a non-AC 12-1 Pullman green(don't have my 14-section Walthers built yet), and a B60 as a 4-car "Main" I will run at the front or back of a regular train. That's just for fun. In practice, if I am being stricter about my era, a Korean war train wouldn't have the troop sleeper, just the kitchen car, regular Pullman, and the baggage car. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:50:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars In a message dated 2/9/2000 3:17:27 PM Central Standard Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << Didn't some of them wind up in MOW applications? >> Also, REA service. I am finishing an extra Hallmark Kitchen car as a Burlington express car --seen in many Pennsy trains. I also have an older Cannonball express box kit (brittle) which I will finish as a New Haven express car--definitely seen systemwide on PRR. I was fortunate to pick up a pair of Capeline Allied full-cushion trucks many years ago to use under the Cannonball kit. I think they lasted in interchange service through my era, about 1950. (if they don't, tough--I like them too much to give them up). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 16:58:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser John, Dennis, Mark, Okay, you all came up with the .607 lbs. That answer was achieved by using 1/87 1/87 1/87 as your formula. I do not believe that is the formula used for this calulation though. It may very well be but it seems to me the formula was alot more difficult than that. It may have contained mass, volume and whatever else. I wish I knew what mag that was in. Tom M recalls the article somewhat and and he said it was the idea of John Armstrong. So the mag must date into the 1950's. I still think the answer maybe a lot more than .607 lbs. Any more listers with different thoughts?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S HOBBIES" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:04:58 -0500 As I recall, the illustration was the weight of a 40' boxcar. When the number was divided by 87 cubed, the weight came out to about 4 ounces, the recommended NMRA weight for a 40' boxcar. Thank you for your interest in ONE RAILROAD AVENUE. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Home of the RAILROAD TELEGRAPH 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: Mark Bej ; dennis@onerrave.com ; johncoop@microsoft.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser John, Dennis, Mark, Okay, you all came up with the .607 lbs. That answer was achieved by using 1/87 1/87 1/87 as your formula. I do not believe that is the formula used for this calulation though. It may very well be but it seems to me the formula was alot more difficult than that. It may have contained mass, volume and whatever else. I wish I knew what mag that was in. Tom M recalls the article somewhat and and he said it was the idea of John Armstrong. So the mag must date into the 1950's. I still think the answer maybe a lot more than .607 lbs. Any more listers with different thoughts?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:11:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser I can't refute all your reasoning on my own, but I think the "trick" in the question is in dealing with mass, not weight. I.e., scaling down mass. I believe the original author came to the conclusion that by one theory an HO locomotive would have to be constructed of Plutonium or some such heavy element . Right now my brain hurts and I have to go run operations night at our club, but it sounds like a fun question to research on the web later. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 14:45:00 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser Gary, I also came up with .6 lbs. I model in 7.5" gauge, and using the same method, 400,000 lbs divided by 8 cubed, comes up to 781 lbs for a 1/8 sized model, which is right in the ballpark. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > > John, Dennis, Mark, > > Okay, you all came up with the .607 lbs. That answer was achieved by > using 1/87 1/87 1/87 as your formula. I do not believe that is the > formula used for this calulation though. It may very well be but it > seems to me the formula was alot more difficult than that. It may have > contained mass, volume and whatever else. I wish I knew what mag that > was in. Tom M recalls the article somewhat and and he said it was the > idea of John Armstrong. So the mag must date into the 1950's. I still > think the answer maybe a lot more than .607 lbs. Any more listers with > different thoughts?....Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:39:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser In racking my brain before leaving for a night of operation, I am wondering if the original article wasn't about momentum, rather than weight, and the problems scaling down momentum. Bob (CRS disease acting up again) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:50:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Dennis, Mark, John, Doug, List         Ain't this fun? Your example makes sense to a point. However, your saying a boxcar would weigh 4 oz in HO. And a K4 would weigh .607 or roughly 9 oz? The calculation does not add up. Your saying the weight of 2 actual box cars are equal to the same as 1 actual K4 in weight. That not right. A K4 weighs about 400,000 lbs. 2 box cars do not. See what I mean. There is a special formula needed to figure this out.         Off the top of my head, again I am only taking a wild guess, I may be way off base but the weight of an actual K4 reduced to actual HO scale weight (not actual weight of the model) would be something like 200 lbs. See where I am coming from? Keep at it. Gary Dennis wrote,    As I recall, the illustration was the weight of a 40' boxcar. When the number was divided by 87 cubed, the weight came out to about 4 ounces, the recommended NMRA weight for a 40' boxcar. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: [PRR] PRR Boxcar "red" color Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 17:54:48 -0500 Looking for recommendations on specific paint brands and colors (or mix) for a PRR Boxcar "red" color to be used on single door boxcars mainly. With the number of cars that the PRR had, I'm sure that there were many variations, but I'm looking for some good PRR type boxcar colors that modelers have used. I'll be using oil/lacquer based paint because of limited compressor pressure I'm sure this has been asked before, sorry if I'm being redundant. Thanks. Jim Cullen ----------------------------------------------- Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (N-Scale) http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:07:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser Doug, Thanks for your calculation. You are using the same calculation that the other guys are using. Their calculations are coming up with the answer as being the weight of the actual HO scale model, .607 lbs. As are you. Your calculations are coming up with the weight of your actual 1/8 scale model which is 781 lbs. I am after the weight of an actual K4 (400,000 lbs) reduced to actual lbs in HO scale. I believe there is a difference. I am still scratching my head to see if I explained that right.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:10:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser I do not mean to sound stuffy or snotty or anything like that, but I thought the list was to discuss topics related to the Pennsylvania Railroad itself. Being a historian working on a book about this beloved railroad, I am mostly interested in the historical and operational aspects of the railroad and it seems to me that there should be a separate list just for the modelers and I don't see how the operating properties of a Bowser K4 steam locomotive has anything to do with how the Pennsy got trains over the road and prescribed how they were to be operated. I wish there would be more talk about the historical aspect of the PRR and its operations and a little less tripe. It may not seem like tripe to those modelling the PRR, but I thought the list was for discussing the Pennsy itself and not about who screwed up what models of what locomotives and cars,etc. as I could care less about that. If I offend anyone, I apologise, but I believe I came on board for the information I could get about the Pennsylvania Railroad and did not exactly figure on getting a whole bunch of trivial tripe not relavant to the railroad with it. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 18:20:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Jim, Not offended at all. There is a point to this discussion. We all know a real K4 could handle 7-9 cars on most of the divisions. On the curve and Pittsburgh Div it needed a helper. Now, I am trying to figure out if the scale weights of those involved, the K4, and the cars, can be calculated into relitive HO weights. So this does have a little to do with PRR Prototype practices. By the way, this is an all Pennsy Topic site....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] PRR Boxcar Red Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 23:57:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF7359.6C359E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would also like a recomendation for a suitable "box car red" in a = Eurpoean range, perferably Humbrol as the various American paint ranges are somewhat = difficult to come by in the UK. Patrick Grace ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF7359.6C359E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would also like a recomendation for a = suitable=20 "box car red" in a Eurpoean range,
perferably Humbrol as the various = American paint=20 ranges are somewhat difficult to come by in the UK.
 
Patrick = Grace
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF7359.6C359E00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:42:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser From: Jerry Britton On 2/9/00 6:10 PM, GenJim833@aol.com at (GenJim833@aol.com) wrote: > I do not mean to sound stuffy or snotty or anything like that, but I thought > the list was to discuss topics related to the Pennsylvania Railroad itself. The charter for this list allows for "both prototypical and modeling" aspects (see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrtalk.html). Why? Because if there were seperate modeling and proto lists, the modelers would be asking things like "Why does the pilot on my K-4s... when the photo on page xx of yy shows this?" But there would be no proto experts there to respond... Except for the few who are on both lists, then one of them starts a proto discussion on the modeling list... Eventually cross-posts make it back to the proto list... Then both lists complain that material is on the wrong lists! Hey, lighten up, one list works best. So it may be leaning a bit more towards the modeling this week. But there are plenty of threads about proto aspects that last for days, even weeks. Just check the archives! -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 19:43:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo of Railroad Delivering Newspapers Needed Jerry. I don't have a photo but do recall vividly going to the Altoona station with my Grandfather some time around 12:00 midnight to 1:00 am to get a new paper as they were unload from an eastbound mail train or Psgr. with heavy headend baggage and RPO's.The News stand was open in the station at the time and would get a bundle and open it right off the baggage cart. Wish I could remember the trains, but a little to young for that then. Time period early 1960's. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 19:58:16 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars In a message dated 2/9/00 5:10:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << I think they lasted in interchange service through my era, about 1950. (if they don't, tough--I like them too much to give them up). >> Operative word is INTERCHANGE service: the "Mad River" museum at Bellvue Ohio has a Troop Sleeper, with about half of the original bunks still remainig. It came off Camp Car service on the WM and, I believe, retains it's Allied Full Cushion trucks to this day. Anyone know exactly when the Allied trucks were banned? Dick Ross Cleveland Ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:05:27 -0500 Just divide the weight by 87. The scale weight would be about 4,598 pounds. Guess that would pull a lot of HO cars????? Lew White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser List, Here is a question to get the scholars on this list to rack their brains a little. Along time ago (15-20 years ago) my dad was discussing with me something he read one day. I believe it was something he read in Model Railraoder 30-40 years ago. I no longer no what the answer was or even if he had the answer to this question. It had to do with the weight of Locomotives. I am talking "Scale Weight". Here is an example. If a Real K4 and tender weighed (400,000 lbs), thats a guess, what would that same K4 weigh in HO scale terms. An HO Scale K4 maybe weighs 2 lbs at the most. If I remember correctly, the answer was the model would be so heavy you couldn't pick it up. Would that be correct? There must be a formula to figure this out. Does anyone know it? I do not think the 1/87 figure comes into play here. That only deals with size, not weight. So this question goes out to the PHD's, the MD's, DMD's and all those other alphabet schalars. Any help on this one??? ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Boxcar "red" color Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:17:47 -0500 Dear Jim: It doesn't matter what color mix you use because the prototype varied so much due to fading, weather and dirt. Pick the one that looks the best to you under your train layout lighting conditions. I remember when I was a youth, going along a siding in Lancaster trying to match my model paint with a PRR boxcar and not finding any two cars the same shade. Now I paint some mineral red, boxcar red, tuscan red and some mixes of the three and then weather them and add white to the basic color and "fade out" the original color etc. My fleet looks to me like the trains used to, all different colors. Lew White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Cullen To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 6:16 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Boxcar "red" color >Looking for recommendations on specific paint brands and colors (or mix) for >a PRR Boxcar "red" color to be used on single door boxcars mainly. With the >number of cars that the PRR had, I'm sure that there were many variations, >but I'm looking for some good PRR type boxcar colors that modelers have >used. I'll be using oil/lacquer based paint because of limited compressor >pressure > >I'm sure this has been asked before, sorry if I'm being redundant. > >Thanks. >Jim Cullen > >----------------------------------------------- >Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (N-Scale) >http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Life-Like Y-3s Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 21:03:28 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7341.1D46A220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi...Everyone. I don't won't to tie everybody up with dumb prototypical = questions, but I did purchase a undecorated Y-3 and have painted and = decaled my locomotive with a keystone number plate, replaced the coal = load and decaled the tender and weathered it. I was reading in Pennsy = Power III, on page 79, Al Stauffer indicates that the PRR "just put a = keystone number plate on the front, relettered them and ran them" I = believe he is referring to the N & W Y-3s that the road picked up. Any = ideas, anybody. My unit looks quite good and maybe when the PRR units = come out...I'll have something to compare it with. There are so very few = pictures of the Y-3's other than the Columbus area and the = Chambersburg/Hagerstown area. What do you all think? Bob Holden. = rholden@superpa.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7341.1D46A220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi...Everyone. I don't won't to tie everybody up = with dumb=20 prototypical questions, but I did purchase a undecorated Y-3 and have = painted=20 and decaled my locomotive with a keystone number plate, replaced the = coal load=20 and decaled the tender and weathered it. I was reading in Pennsy Power = III, on=20 page 79, Al Stauffer indicates that the PRR "just put a keystone number = plate on=20 the front, relettered them and ran them" I believe he is referring to = the N=20 & W Y-3s that the road picked up. Any ideas, anybody. My unit looks = quite=20 good and maybe when the PRR units come out...I'll have something to = compare it=20 with. There are so very few pictures of the Y-3's other than the = Columbus area=20 and the Chambersburg/Hagerstown area. What do you all think? Bob Holden. = rholden@superpa.net =20
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7341.1D46A220-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] RE: Society and Modeling Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 16:05:54 -0600 Jerry and List, I for one will pay to keep up the good job the "good ol' boys "are doing even though I'm a modeler much more than a history buff. The way I look at it the Keystone has the information on the prototype that we modelers can use to produce the miniature. Let us be thankful for the library project the Society has been working on for some time, should come in handy some day for many of us. I just hope that when the time comes to pass the torch to the next generation that we do "the good ol' boys" proud. My 2 cents, Pete Reinhold Member PRRT&HS Universal Die & Stampings preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser/Modeling Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:47:15 -0500 Gentlemen, If you don't belong....Then don't criticize, and if you do belong, how about trying to write an article about what you like.....That is how the articles that you didn't like got in the Keystone. And as far as modeling....there are a bunch of modeling magazines out there to pick from. Get a life ! It's a hobby..... Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. Restoring a PRR Station. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Wallis To: BPX29@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser/Modeling > > >BPX29@aol.com wrote: > >> Bruce Smith wrote, in response to Jim M.: >> ---- >> As I'm fond of telling the upper echelons of the PRRT&HS...be nice to me, >> I'm a post baby boomer, a modeler, and when you are DEAD and ROTTING in >> your coffin, it guys like me, modelers, who will keep the memory of the PRR >> alive. > >Nice talk. Bear in mind that, for a lot of younger (and future) modelers who may not remember the PRR "in the flesh," the old guys are a priceless resource, not an enemy of some kind. That some of the "upper echelon" is pig-headed and insensitive is true--just like their pig-headed and insensitive counterparts in the modeling community (see scribit above). > >> I'd have to agree with your attitude toward the main men of the PRRT&HS. In fact I'm so much in agreement that I'm still debating my annual renewal because of a number of reasons, not the least of which is their refusal to take modeling seriously. For a group of entrenched guys who have often expressed their concerns over the future content of the Keystone ("why don't YOU send in an article instead of criticizing?"), they display an amazing intransigence against the potential of model oriented content. Most of the other societes I've been in, such as the B&O, Milwaukee Road and Reading, have always offered something for the modeler, but not these guys. I have to think that a lot of us would have a greater interest in model paint mixes, kitbas! >> hing available models and articles on where to use various ECW P70's than in lanterns and silverware. >> But who knows....given the warm reception accorded the idea of a cyber chapter, we may see the Keystone yet break into the most promising field of fandom, the scale modeling world. >> Best regards, folks, >> Barry Peltier > >The Keystone seems to me to be an excellent source of detail for the prototype modeler. As such, I am surprised that it is not prized more highly. That means PRRT&HS membership, period. Let's face it: the bulk of the dues paid as a PRRT&HS member goes for the printing and distribution of The Keystone. What little there is left pays for things like keeping Lewistown--which I expect to be protecting the invaluable historical materials in the society's hands. For many of us who cannot attend the annual meeting, or participate in other ways, The Keystone is the main reason we are members--that and the chance to be part of a legitimate historical community. > >Does the Keystone often carry articles on the arcane and obscure: absolutely. Who else is going to document such highly specialized material concerning the PRR, or its subsidiaries? Seems to me that the editor and editorial board try to keep the modeling scene covered with well-done reviews of new PRR product releases. Other than detailed coverage of the railroad's physical plant and equipment, what else were you expecting? Is it really reasonable to have articles like, say: "Adding Train-phone antennas to the Atlas RS-3?" In a historical journal? > >I think it is fair to say that the modeling contingent will keep the PRR alive long after those of us who actually grew up with it are gone. (Of course, if you're wishing that to be true sooner than later, perhaps you should reexamine your personal motivations.) I, for one, have nothing but admiration for those who practice the highly artistic expression of scale modeling. But I also have a great deal of respect for the historians who have allowed me to indulge in my interest in the railroad. Without them, we would have nothing to pass on. > >So, how about we all try to get along? > >Richard Wallis >Wheaton, Il. > >(PS-Evolution is only a theory. God bless you, Barry.) > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:25:13 -0500 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Guy's, I am of the camp that dividing by the cube of 87 is the way to go in this problem but, if one were to build a live steamer in HO what sort of steam pressure would be required to make it move 7 or eight cars? How does steam pressure scale down? If the pressure doesn't scale down by the cube of the scale, then the thickness of pipes etc might be a limiting factor so that one simply could not build a exactly realistic HO scale model. Any thoughts? Also does the caloric value of scale coal cause any problems? -Bob Vogel Gary Mittner wrote: > > Jim, > > Not offended at all. There is a point to this discussion. We all know > a real K4 could handle 7-9 cars on most of the divisions. On the curve > and Pittsburgh Div it needed a helper. Now, I am trying to figure out if > the scale weights of those involved, the K4, and the cars, can be > calculated into relitive HO weights. So this does have a little to do > with PRR Prototype practices. By the way, this is an all Pennsy Topic > site....Gary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:26:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Boxcar "red" color I<< So, now we're back to the same question: what is a good ready-mix solvent based model paint, or what is a good mix formula for same for a freshly shopped, pre-1956 freight car? >> I hope you all mean pre October 1952. That is when the freight car color was changed from natural iron sesquioxide pigments to synthetic pigments. This is 2 years prior to the adoption of the shadow keystone. Makes for an interesting contrast between cars painted post 1952 and pre 1952 both with the circle keystone. The simple answer is there is no one ready mix that is close. The use of natural pigments resulted in geographic variations based upon the origin of the pigments. Iron sesquioxide is not consistent in color when contaminated with other chemicals in the clay based pigments. Personally, I start with Zinc chromate primer and go both more orange and more brown to achieve the variation found in PRR cars prior to 1952. Each mix is somewhat different. Also, remember that natural pigments rapidly broke down under sunlight. The iron sesquioxide color is basically on the orange side. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:39:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Boxcar "red" vs Hopper car "red" In a message dated 2/10/00 4:15:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << Oh. Now that you mention it, Toluidine Red and Freight Car Color always seem to be mentioned separately, as in cabin car color standards over the years. So, now we're back to the same question: what is a good ready-mix solvent based model paint, or what is a good mix formula for same for a freshly shopped, pre-1956 freight car? Vagel >> My experience and limited color photos indicate that that the RR used a different color on the "house cars" and the hoppers - the hoppers were more "orange" than the Box Cars - which were more purple. I'm an "O" scaler so the following is just an observation at the hobby shop counter: I think Bowser's models are great, but, from what I've seen - they have the colors reversed - the darker color on the hoppers - and the lighter color on the freight cars. As an industrial historian, Vagel, you are probably aware that in the pre WW II era different colors had different prices. That's the reason why most locos were black and most freight cars were red - those colors were the least expensive When Pullman painted their cars Green - when the B&O painted cars and locos Blue they were making a statement - using paints that cost extra. This may be why the PRR put a "hint" of green on their locos. The name of Tuscan red, of course, came from its' similarity to the soils of the Tuscany region of Italy - Iron Oxide red (Hopper car color) was made with iron oxide etc., but back then the solvents and the pigments were bought and stored separately, so that paints varied not only from shop to shop but, after time, from day to day on cars produced or painted at the same sites - Color film I'ver seen of passenger trains on the PRR seem to indicate that anything from pink to purple can be regarded as "correct" For painting brass hopper cars for the PRR I use (HORRORS !) Krylon "Ruddy Red Brown Primer" - availible at your local Home Depot or "K" Mart. It's just a bit too Brown, but it is a primer and weathering and "Dull Coat" lightens it up to an acceptable shade. Remember, especially in HO you should be thinking in terms of modeling trains - not just cars - and, I believe few, if any should be exactly the same shade Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:42:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Wasn't the K4 designed primarily as a passenger engine, which would account for its 7 to 9 car pulling capacity? If you were to use it in freight service, it would be like trying to use a pair of E8 passenger diesels to pull a freight train without the appropriate gearing. In the steam era, which was before my time, unfortunately, it seems to me that the Pennsylvania Railroad had a specific locomotive type for a specific job and dispatched it accordingly. From what little I know about Pennsy steam, the K4 type was primarily a passenger engine, but could be used on some light freight jobs. I can sure use an education in Pennsy steam, for it is the diesel I grew up with. Jim Mancuso Perry, NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 19:20:51 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Society and Modeling --Boundary_(ID_+sXvp0M4MjWEJgxb/B2+OA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce and the list, I like the idea, but I have concerns about it. Basically, to what standard of accuracy would the models be held to? Obviously, the N scale Con Cor PRR hudsons would not get a certificate. After that, things get murkier. The HO Bowser K4s has a wheelbase that's a bit long and lacks a mechanical lubricator; do these flaws outweigh the model's good qualities? My Athearn L2s 9630 has a B&O headlight and steam and signal lines (PRR L2s engines had neither); do these discrepancies outweigh the superb sprung chassis and flywheels? Also, this makes life difficult for those of us dabbling in tinplate; I was thrilled to purchase MTH's K4s and H10s, even though they're not true scale models. They do look fantastic to me. Please don't misunderstand; I like your idea, but I think that it might be taken to extremes (perhaps unintentionally). One possibility would be more product reviews in the Keystone; a modeller armed with prototype information could make his or her own decision about a model. Doug Bruce Andrews wrote: > Hello, Reading the thread regarding modeling and the PRRT&HS leads me > to ask the following questions of the modelers. How much more would > you be willing to pay for a model that included a certificate from the > PRRT&HS attesting to the model's accuracy with regards to PRR > prototypes? Would you be willing to join the society and/or pay to > get more information on the prototype for the model you just > bought. This could be a way for the society to generate income, as > well as, attract new members from the modeling community. Just an > idea, Bruce Andrews --Boundary_(ID_+sXvp0M4MjWEJgxb/B2+OA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce and the list,

I like the idea, but I have concerns about it.  Basically, to what standard of accuracy would the models be held to?  Obviously, the N scale Con Cor PRR hudsons would not get a certificate.  After that, things get murkier.

The HO Bowser K4s has a wheelbase that's a bit long and lacks a mechanical lubricator; do these flaws outweigh the model's good qualities?  My Athearn L2s 9630 has a B&O headlight and steam and signal lines (PRR L2s engines had neither); do these discrepancies outweigh the superb sprung chassis and flywheels?

Also, this makes life difficult for those of us dabbling in tinplate; I was thrilled to purchase MTH's K4s and H10s, even though they're not true scale models.  They do look fantastic to me.

Please don't misunderstand; I like your idea, but I think that it might be taken to extremes (perhaps unintentionally).  One possibility would be more product reviews in the Keystone; a modeller armed with prototype information could make his or her own decision about a model.

Doug

Bruce Andrews wrote:

Hello, Reading the thread regarding modeling and the PRRT&HS leads me to ask the following questions of the modelers. How much more would you be willing to pay for a model that included a certificate from the PRRT&HS attesting to the model's accuracy with regards to PRR prototypes?  Would you be willing to join the society and/or pay to get more information on the prototype for the model you just bought. This could be a way for the society to generate income, as well as, attract new members from the modeling community. Just an idea, Bruce Andrews  
--Boundary_(ID_+sXvp0M4MjWEJgxb/B2+OA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Society and Modeling Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:21:57 -0500 Dear List: I joined the PRRT&HS because I needed more accurate modeling information. I built at least 20 different cars, since I became a member, that I wouldn't have been able to build without reference information from the Keystone. I would LOVE to see PRR prototype modeling and kitbashing in the society's journal, and I would probably be one of the first to submit something. Since I became a member, I also discovered the GREAT PEOPLE that are PRRT&HS members. It is a pleasure to know so many helpful, talented and friendly people that share a common interest. My membership has returned dividends well beyond the worth of the magazine. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 12:12 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Society and Modeling >--On Don, 10. Feb 2000 11:04 -0500 "Jerry Britton" >wrote: > > >> Please renew. The Keystone is a fine publication, worth the dues alone... > >Ditto. And, as for its usefulness in modeling, bear witness to the >occasionaly prototype articles on rolling stock. My recently-purchased >bunch of F30a have correctly shaped and located coupler cut levers thanks to >the excellent photos in the Spring 1990 issue. > >Vagel Keller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:00:20 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Society and Modeling > Lew Matt: I keep seeing this at the end of your posts: > White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that > markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and > vegetables and herbs. > We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA > > WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC > GROWING TECHNIQUES > E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our > all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. What's the deal? You grow organic produce? Sell any chow-chow? Richard Wallis Wheaton, Il. (a million miles from Pennsylvania Dutch country) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:06:06 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Re: Boxcar "red" vs Hopper car "red" --On Don, 10. Feb 2000 19:39 +0000 Dick Ross wrote: > For painting brass hopper cars for the PRR I use (HORRORS !) Krylon > "Ruddy Red Brown Primer" - availible at your local Home Depot or "K" Mart. > It's just a bit too Brown, but it is a primer and weathering and "Dull Coat" > lightens it up to an acceptable shade. Remember, especially in HO you should > be thinking in terms of modeling trains - not just cars - and, I believe few, > if any should be exactly the same shade Dick, you are so right in terms of attitude. It IS a fleet (actually, a task force ... 2 doz. will suffice) most of us seem to be interested in. I paint my HOn3 iron ore cars (re-trucked Tichey kits) and C&BT Shops EBT 3-bay hoppers with Krylon flat black from Home Despot (spelling correct). I will experiment with YOUR Krylon shade for those pesky undec. resin kits! When finishing Bowser per-painted kits, I have found that weathering always results in variations between individual cars, yet there IS a comforting "sameness" in a string of five or six such finished kits. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 01:39:47 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser/Modeling Gize, Please don't make me take sides on this issue, I think I have made myself clear in the past on my "beliefs" of how the Society could improve itself, but criticism without correction is wrong. I think that the society could dedicate a section of the magazine to modeling and review of scale products that represent themselves as PRR items. Drawing from the knowledge of the society they could not only criticize but correct the item. This could lead the modeler/historian that have left back to the society. The society doesn't have the resources to preserve examples of all the PRR equipment still out their, but could do so in miniature. Modelers deserve to know what is and isn't correct for PRR equipment, but alas they will have to find it out elsewhere. Learning how to correct a model to make it more "like" a PRR piece is even more enjoyable in my lowly opinion, thus I have chosen a more public forum to do so. And Richard, if the society had made you more aware, you would not even have considered putting Train Induction Antenna Mast on an Atlas AS-16m (RS-3), again in my lowly opinion. To start with it's hood is a scale foot too short, and the cab roof doesn't match any drawing I have ever laid it up to, and I could go on but choose not to. My personal choice and the most accurate model to date of the ALCO RS-3 is MDC's and then perhaps the Hobbytown, followed by the Stewart and then Atlas, sorry that's the facts. But they can all be made better and are not accurate for the PRR, as is. But you didn't hear that from the society, just a half-ass mouthy modeler. I just finished my LIFE LIKE representations of the PRR AFP-20A (PA-1) and AP-20 (PB-1) after just over 7 months of modeling and research which included the help from members here on this list and contacts they had sent me to (Thanks Bill Volkmer). None of the research came directly from me contacting the society direct. The society could do more... But as I say criticism without correction is wrong! I offer my help outside the society to help it within. My dues to their cause will not change things. We all need to remember the society has a mission to uphold. Other Societies make room for modeling, the PRRT&HS doesn't and that is it in a nut shell. WE need a Historical and Modeling Society of our own. Greg Martin << On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Richard Wallis wrote: > Does the Keystone often carry articles on the arcane and obscure: absolutely? Who else is going to document such highly specialized material concerning the PRR, or its subsidiaries? Seems to me that the editor and editorial board try to keep the modeling scene covered with well-done reviews of new PRR product releases. Other than detailed coverage of the railroad's physical plant and equipment, what else were you expecting? Is it really reasonable to have articles like, say: "Adding Trainphone antennas to the Atlas RS-3?" In a historical journal?< Then Derrick responds with: > I wouldn't expect to see that, but something explaining what units an Atlas RS-3 can be appropriately used to model (and uh, was it Greg Martin who said the MDC is the most accurate of the 3 RS-3's, *if* you're modeling that phase?) and for what units and in what eras trainphone antennas are appropriate. I actually wouldn't mind doing such articles myself, and I hope to have sufficient research materials to do an accurate article of that sort in the future. -D >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 06:32:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR] E-R Models RF-16 & BCW 40' TrucTrain Trailer From: Jerry Britton Received two products in for the first time: The Beth Car Works 40' TrucTrain trailers arrived yesterday. They look real good! Trailer is white resin. Decals allow for endless numbers. I can't these trailers them on my own 1954 layout (need the planned 32 footers), but I've just gotta build one up for display! For the first time, ordered some E-R Models RF-16's (PRR Class BF16). To my delight, they are much better than the old Model Power/Roco units. The paint job is much crisper, the vents are sharper in detail (and a silver/grey color), and they finally have properly done the five-stripe in DGLE!!! (Model Power incorrectly did it in Tuscan). Problems? Incorrect horns. PRR had a double horn. The model has two singles, one facing forward, one aft. Also, the rear side door on the fireman's side should be recessed, like the front door, but it is flush. Other than that, holds up well against photos in Jack Hahn's "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial -- Volume 4 - Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units" from Withers Publishing. Two road numbers are available in DGLE-five and two new road numbers are available in DGLE-single (the first two numbers sold out). Related, there is still one road number of the FP-7's available; the other has sold out. No word on a rerun. Also, no mention of B units for either the RF-16 or the FP-7. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:37:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] RS3s( was PRR Brain Teaser/Modeling) On Fri, 11 Feb 2000 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > The remarks of Pennsy modelers like yourself as to the accuracy are very much > appreciated. However, what is a modeler to do if he or she weighs operation > heavily? I don't have a Stewart to compare (though their Kato mechanism on > my F7 is a sweet runner) , but the Atlas is a better operator than the MDC > or Hobbytown. I have one of the original production runs and it is one of > the best runners I have. The new MDCs have Proto 2000 drives, they run pretty well. Of course, the PRR scheme they did is ugly. It might also be wrong, but I disliked it so much I bought an undec. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:28:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Northern Central Chapter Mtg 2/13 From: Jerry Britton This Sunday, February 13, at 1:30 p.m. at the Yorktowne Hotel in York, Pa., will be a meeting of the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS. Included in the agenda is the final chapter planning meeting for the 2000 PRRT&HS Annual Convention, which the chapter is hosting. Look for a refined schedule of events online late Sunday. This is also the chapter's annual "Less Than Carload" event, where everyone is encouraged to bring along a PRR possession -- model or prototype -- which is unique, for all to see. I will bring along for display the new BCW 40' TrucTrain trailers, the E-R Models RF-16 in DGLE 5-stripe, the "Pennsy Streamliners" book, the "Electric Locomotive Pictorial" book, and a few other recent products. Quantities for sale will also be on hand if anyone is interested. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:42:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Photos of new P1K C-Liners From: Jerry Britton If you want to see what the new C-Liners from Life Like Proto 1000 look like, someone is selling the already-shipping CP versions on eBay. See: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=trlink@home .com (Be sure the complete URL fits on one line and does not include a hard return!) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 09:44:57 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser/Modeling Greg, Its a pity you did not see fit to contact the society for you support on your Alco PA and PB project. I receive excellent modeling support from the "good old boys" on my 7.5" E6 project. In fact, just received more data yesterday. But then I also recognize I don't "deserve" anything from a volunteer organization that requires someone to give up their spare time to fill my request. Perhaps a attitude ajustment on your part might help you get farther with the society, or should I say the folks that are volunteering their spare time so you can enjoy yours. You keep mentioning a PRR modeling society. Great idea! Are you going to do anything about it or just talk about it? I applaud the efforts of the many people who spend their time making this hobby more enjoyable, whether it be the "good old boys" of the society, the authors of the Keystone, or Jerry maintaining this list, just to name a few. Regards, Doug TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Gize, > > Please don't make me take sides on this issue, I think I have made myself > clear in the past on my "beliefs" of how the Society could improve itself, > but criticism without correction is wrong. > > I think that the society could dedicate a section of the magazine to modeling > and review of scale products that represent themselves as PRR items. Drawing > from the knowledge of the society they could not only criticize but correct > the item. This could lead the modeler/historian that have left back to the > society. The society doesn't have the resources to preserve examples of all > the PRR equipment still out their, but could do so in miniature. > > Modelers deserve to know what is and isn't correct for PRR equipment, but > alas they will have to find it out elsewhere. Learning how to correct a > model to make it more "like" a PRR piece is even more enjoyable in my lowly > opinion, thus I have chosen a more public forum to do so. > > And Richard, if the society had made you more aware, you would not even have > considered putting Train Induction Antenna Mast on an Atlas AS-16m (RS-3), > again in my lowly opinion. To start with it's hood is a scale foot too > short, and the cab roof doesn't match any drawing I have ever laid it up to, > and I could go on but choose not to. My personal choice and the most accurate > model to date of the ALCO RS-3 is MDC's and then perhaps the Hobbytown, > followed by the Stewart and then Atlas, sorry that's the facts. But they can > all be made better and are not accurate for the PRR, as is. But you didn't > hear that from the society, just a half-ass mouthy modeler. > > I just finished my LIFE LIKE representations of the PRR AFP-20A (PA-1) and > AP-20 (PB-1) after just over 7 months of modeling and research which included > the help from members here on this list and contacts they had sent me to > (Thanks Bill Volkmer). None of the research came directly from me contacting > the society direct. The society could do more... But as I say criticism > without correction is wrong! I offer my help outside the society to help it > within. My dues to their cause will not change things. We all need to > remember the society has a mission to uphold. Other Societies make room for > modeling, the PRRT&HS doesn't and that is it in a nut shell. WE need a > Historical and Modeling Society of our own. > > Greg Martin > > << On Thu, 10 Feb 2000, Richard Wallis wrote: > > > Does the Keystone often carry articles on the arcane and obscure: > absolutely? Who else is going to document such highly specialized material > concerning the PRR, or its subsidiaries? Seems to me that the editor and > editorial board try to keep the modeling scene covered with well-done reviews > of new PRR product releases. Other than detailed coverage of the railroad's > physical plant and equipment, what else were you expecting? Is it really > reasonable to have articles like, say: "Adding Trainphone antennas to the > Atlas RS-3?" In a historical journal?< > > Then Derrick responds with: > > > I wouldn't expect to see that, but something explaining what units an Atlas > RS-3 can be appropriately used to model (and uh, was it Greg Martin who said > the MDC is the most accurate of the 3 RS-3's, *if* you're modeling that > phase?) and for what units and in what eras trainphone antennas are > appropriate. > > I actually wouldn't mind doing such articles myself, and I hope to have > sufficient research materials to do an accurate article of that sort in the > future. > > -D >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:00:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Yesterday was I-1 day A message in the steam engine section of the RR boards on AOL indicated that yesterday was I-1 day for PRR fans since the date was 2-10-0. Thought it might interest somebody here. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: [PRR] Re: B60 plans Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:28:00 -0500 Dear Claus: Thanks for the generous offer of photos, but I have B60b pix. I need a good B60 picture showing the "windows" as built, to go with my prototype drawing. If one of the museums can help me, that will resolve the problem. I have all the visual reference I need from printed text to make a good detailed drawing. I made some sketches to satisfy myself about how things go together before I tackle the ink and vellum. That's next. BTW, the kitbash is coming along nicely. The cars were relatively easy, but bashing the 3C-P1 trucks for the B70 is turning into quite a project. I'm on my third attempt to make a plausable copy of the 3C-P1 from the Athearn Commonwealth truck. This last version has a sense about it that seems correct. The first two just didn't have the "feel" of the 3C-P1. The biggest hurdle, is that the Athearn Comm. truck is almost 2 feet shorter due to closer axel spacing. The 3C-P1 LOOKS massive, and is a little hard to achieve with the smaller truck. The proof of the pudding will be when I finally paint and assemble the car with trucks and set it on some track and see how it looks. Do you know anyone that has a good photo of the 2C-P1 riveted frame truck that went under the B60 when new? I may wind up using the standard 2D-P3 truck under this model and drawing. I want to have 3 B60s to show the evolution of the car design. A B60 with the 4 windows and baggage doors with 2 windows in each, riding on 2C-P1 trucks, a B60 with plated over windows with a 2D-P3 truck and finally, the modernized version with rebuilt side plates where the windows "used to be" and porthole baggage doors, riding on 2D-P5 roller bearing trucks. Those three models span the entire life of the B60. From high speed, head end service, through non-revenue use. This is a fun project. I have to get crackin' on the written history of the B60 and B70. There just isn't too much out there in print on these two cars. They seem to play a minor roll in recorded history compared to the wealth of info on the B60b. Lew White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Claus Schlund To: lew matt Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 10:20 PM Subject: Re: B60 plans Hi Lew, > I have a poor copy of an original PRR elevation. I am redrawing it for > publication in MRC to go along with my B60/B70 kitbash article. Wonderful, so I'll just sit back and wait for the article to appear, right? I do look forward to seeing the article. I don't know if you have found the B60 photos you need, but I checked my photo collection and I only have photos of B60b cars. Let me know if that helps you any. - Claus > > Lew > > White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that > markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and > vegetables and herbs. > We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA > > WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC > GROWING TECHNIQUES > E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our > all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Claus Schlund > To: lew matt > Date: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 10:29 PM > Subject: B60 plans > > > Hi Lew, > > Last nite while assembling one of the B60b cars I am working on, > I was wondering to myself if there were any plans around for the > PRR B60 car class. I've seen lots of plans for the B60b > (turtle roof, 3-2-3 vertical seam pattern) but I've never > seen any plans for the B60 (clerestory roof, 2-1-2 vertical > seam pattern). I've seen lots of photos, but not a plan anywhere in > my reference materials! Have you ever come across anything like that > in your research? If so, let me know as I am interested. > > TIA - Claus > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:34:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] RE: (PRR) PRR Brain Teaser + The Society    Doug, Dennis, John, Mark, List       I come to the conclusion that the answer to the Brain Teaser is what you all state, roughly .6 lbs or so, depending on the weight of the actual K4 is used. The original article in MR must have been using another calulation to figure in another factor. I just don't know.         About the Society rumblings. The society I believe was started back in 1968 for the purpose of remembering the mighty Pennsy by preserving info and sharing it with others. Through the early years up to the present it has been concentrated on prototype info. However there were articles on reviews of Model equipment once in a while. But that wasn't the main purpose the society was founded for. I see the Keystone mag as a helpful tool for gathering this prototype info and then using it to be helpful in the modeling aspect. I don't think I would want it to change too much into a modeling mag. I think we will loose the purpose of the original idea of the society. And this is coming from me, a 50/50 model railroader and PRR Railfan. There are plenty of mags out there that have contributers of PRR Model articles.         I believe this site, PRR-Talk/Cyber Talk, can take up the slack that the PRRT&HS Keystone mag wishes not to get into. Heck, how long has Jerry's site been going, 3, 4 years? It has already seen more talk on Modeling than the Keystone did in 30+ years. Nothing wrong with that. I think this site is filling the void. It is serving a dual purpose actually. Tons of Prototype info that can be used in the Modeling world. Best of both worlds. This is the selling point to get more members into the Cyber Division.         Now, back to painting my "prototypically" correct "models" ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:02:08 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] The Society From: Jerry Britton On 2/11/00 1:34 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Doug, Dennis, John, Mark, List Matthew, Mark, List, and John... > >         About the Society rumblings. The society I > believe was started back in 1968 for the purpose of remembering the > mighty Pennsy by preserving info and sharing it with others. Excellent point. By charter, it IS a prototypical-oriented organization. And there technically is no grounds to argue otherwise! > take up the slack that the PRRT&HS Keystone mag wishes not to get into. > Heck, how long has Jerry's site been going, 3, 4 years? Heck, I don't even know! I think the first URL appeared via my employer's server around Feb. or March of 1996. I got my own dedicated connection and servers set up in late Sept. '96, which is when "PRR-Talk" started. May '97 saw the setback of a disk crash and failed backup, but we have rebuilt well. "PRR-Talk" now has just shy of 400 subscribers and there are over 13,500 messages in the searchable archive (which only goes back to Aug. '97). Since the crash, "Keystone Crossings" has served over 178,000 pages...over 5,000 per month! > It has already > seen more talk on Modeling than the Keystone did in 30+ years. Nothing > wrong with that. I think this site is filling the void. It is serving a > dual purpose actually. Tons of Prototype info that can be used in the > Modeling world. Best of both worlds. Thanks, that was the purpose! 8-) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:29:48 -0500 My, my! And here I thought we were looking at a fairly straight forward engineering scale factor problem, confused by area and volume. But caloric value of scale coal? That's a really good question. Nothing seems as simple as it seems! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: R. Vogel To: PRR-TALK Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 7:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser > > >Guy's, > >I am of the camp that dividing by the cube of 87 is the way to go in >this problem but, if one were to build a live steamer in HO what sort >of steam pressure would be required to make it move 7 or eight cars? >How does steam pressure scale down? If the pressure doesn't scale down >by the cube of the scale, then the thickness of pipes etc might be a >limiting factor so that one simply could not build a exactly realistic >HO scale model. Any thoughts? Also does the caloric value of scale coal >cause any problems? > >-Bob Vogel > >Gary Mittner wrote: >> >> Jim, >> >> Not offended at all. There is a point to this discussion. We all know >> a real K4 could handle 7-9 cars on most of the divisions. On the curve >> and Pittsburgh Div it needed a helper. Now, I am trying to figure out if >> the scale weights of those involved, the K4, and the cars, can be >> calculated into relitive HO weights. So this does have a little to do >> with PRR Prototype practices. By the way, this is an all Pennsy Topic >> site....Gary >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:50:08 -0500 Steam locomotives were disigned with very specific purposes in mind, which makes comparing locomotives of different railroads with the same wheel arrangement all but impossible. Just look up the specs on, say, Northers from railroad to railroad. The designer could (and did) vary everything from geometric dimensions such as wheelbase, firebox dimensions, type of throttle, combustion chamber, cylinder sizes, driver diameters, etc. to such things as steam pressure and super power appliances like feedwater heaters, super heaters, boosters, etc. etc. The designs were specific to type of service, train lengths, terrain, speeds etc. This is what made steam locomotives so fascinating to me. Try asking who had the best Pacific and why, and the answers will vary all over the map, as will the reasons! This is a fun hobby we share! (You'll need to ask that Pacific question beyond this list - otherwise you'll just get K-4 as the answer!) Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII -----Original Message----- From: GenJim833@aol.com To: bobv@nantucket.net ; PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser >Wasn't the K4 designed primarily as a passenger engine, which would account >for its 7 to 9 car pulling capacity? If you were to use it in freight >service, it would be like trying to use a pair of E8 passenger diesels to >pull a freight train without the appropriate gearing. In the steam era, which >was before my time, unfortunately, it seems to me that the Pennsylvania >Railroad had a specific locomotive type for a specific job and dispatched it >accordingly. From what little I know about Pennsy steam, the K4 type was >primarily a passenger engine, but could be used on some light freight jobs. I >can sure use an education in Pennsy steam, for it is the diesel I grew up >with. > >Jim Mancuso >Perry, NY > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:14:13 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Bill, The weight is the only thing that seems to scale down reliably. The steam, water, soot, coeffeints of friction, and the mechanics fingers don't scale at all. Regards, Doug Bill Bigler wrote: > > My, my! And here I thought we were looking at a fairly straight forward > engineering scale factor problem, confused by area and volume. But caloric > value of scale coal? That's a really good question. Nothing seems as > simple as it seems! > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo Div. WWII > > -----Original Message----- > From: R. Vogel > To: PRR-TALK > Date: Thursday, February 10, 2000 7:30 PM > Subject: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser > > > > > > >Guy's, > > > >I am of the camp that dividing by the cube of 87 is the way to go in > >this problem but, if one were to build a live steamer in HO what sort > >of steam pressure would be required to make it move 7 or eight cars? > >How does steam pressure scale down? If the pressure doesn't scale down > >by the cube of the scale, then the thickness of pipes etc might be a > >limiting factor so that one simply could not build a exactly realistic > >HO scale model. Any thoughts? Also does the caloric value of scale coal > >cause any problems? > > > >-Bob Vogel > > > >Gary Mittner wrote: > >> > >> Jim, > >> > >> Not offended at all. There is a point to this discussion. We all know > >> a real K4 could handle 7-9 cars on most of the divisions. On the curve > >> and Pittsburgh Div it needed a helper. Now, I am trying to figure out if > >> the scale weights of those involved, the K4, and the cars, can be > >> calculated into relitive HO weights. So this does have a little to do > >> with PRR Prototype practices. By the way, this is an all Pennsy Topic > >> site....Gary > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >> "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:20:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? List, I have just returned from visiting the PRRT&HS home page. On their discussion page someone has made mention of the possibility of Bowser releaseing a new Locomotive. Guess which one??? None other than the J1-J1a Class. The post said that they (Bowser) is searching for diagrams and such to help them produce this. Also mentioned in the post is that Bowser owns the old Arbour Models J1 molds. Could this be a rerelease of this loco or is there all new die work in the works? Hmmm. May have to look into this Bowser Loco. Anyone else hear anything on this, Jerry? how bout you? Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:17:53 -0600 From: Pat Egan Subject: [PRR] Re: Scale Pressure, weight I have nothing on the subject of scale pressure, except hearsay evidence, which is this: Several people have told me that live steamers that build locomotives with scale size steam passages, including, I presume such things as valve spools, have very poor success operating their locomotives. I must presume that the passages are insufficiently large. I don't know what pressures are used, but I think live steamers use pressures that at least approach those of the prototype. If you think of steam as a fluid, there may be a viscosity or flow path problem involved. Performance tuning of automobile and motorcycle engines gets deeply involved with the flow of fuel/air and exhaust through the engines. It would stand to reason that steam engines have similar needs, which may well become more significant as the passages get smaller. I would suspect that an HO K4 at 180 psi would have real problems. As to scale weights of cars, perhaps the big problem with hauling a train is not just the weight of the cars, but how well the trucks roll. Nothing available in HO or O approaches the rollability of the old journal bearings, much less the modern roller bearings. Consider that any full size eight driver locomotive weighing about 120 tons on drivers - 0-8-0, 4-8-2, SW7, GP9, GP50, will start and move a hundred car train on the straight and level. How much horsepower they have will determine how fast they move it, but not whether they can start it. Scaling down those 120 tons gives about 5.8 ounces in HO. Lets see you start a hundred car train on the straight and level with a 5.8 ounce GP-7! Pat Egan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Red paint Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:53:55 -0500 Hi Vagel: You'll find that, according to the Coatings Encyclopedic Dictionary published by the Federation of Societies for Paint technology, toluidine red is a synthetic pigment made by diazotizing 2-nitro-p-toluidine and coupling this with B naphthol under alkaline conditions. It is a bright red like that used as the background color for the Keystones on locomotives. The red you refer to is an iron oxide red. There are several shades of iron oxide used as paint pigments. The problem is more complicated than just switching from natural to synthetic pigments. Are we sure that the switch happened in the 1950s? The type of resins used in the binders also contributed to changes in colors both initially and after outdoor exposure. The subject is really too lengthy to cover in this forum. BTW, when I had a real job, I was a paint chemist. Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint Consultant PRRT&HS #832 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Scaling From: Fred G Rea Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:41:42 EST The recent discussions of scaling weight and even pressure brings up several problems. Some phenomena do not scale by the same ratio as the linear dimensions. My first lesson in this was many years ago. One of the first live steam locos I ever saw was a beautiful K-4. What surprised me was that, upon close inspection, the air tank under the running board was really the whistle! Why? The relationship between the length of the whistle and its pitch just do not scale! Another lesson came when considering gravity. It does not scale (unless we move our models to a smaller planet). This can be seen when we watch a string of swaying cars in a small scale. They rock too fast! The answer would be to film them with a high speed movie (oops, video) camera, then show the pictures in slow motion. If the right ratio is used they will appear to rock and roll at a very realistic rate. This is exactly what was done in filming the train wreck scene in the movie "The Greatest Show on Earth". In that flick the dynamics of the wreck seem very realistic even though models of about 1/2" to the ft. were used. My apologies for again joining the excursion way off topic. Hopefully the mention of the K-4 will make some amends. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:53:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brain Teaser/Modeling Doug, I've been down this road before with you I believe, but here goes... Your wrote... Greg, "It's a pity you did not see fit to contact the society for you support on your ALCO PA and PB project." Personally my research is as much fun as the modeling, and I don't feel I need to ask for help from a group from which I don't belong. "But then I also recognize I don't 'deserve' anything from a volunteer organization that requires someone to give up their spare time to fill my request. Perhaps an attitude adjustment on your part might help you get further with the society, or should I say the folks that are volunteering their spare time so you can enjoy yours." Why do you look down upon yourself like so, you deserve everything you ask for, you paid your dues didn't you or did they comp you a membership? DO you understand volunteer? No one is twisting their arms in order to have them help YOU. If they don't want to be as helpful as they can then don't volunteer! Simple! I personally don't feel I have an attitude, I am a realist and it is hard for many to understand this, they (PRRT&HS) are what they are (a Technical and Historical Society) and I am who I am, a PRR Prototype Modeler. "You keep mentioning a PRR modeling society. Great idea! Are you going to do anything about it or just talk about it? I applaud the efforts of the many people who spend their time making this hobby more enjoyable, whether it be the "good old boys" of the society, the authors of the Keystone, or Jerry maintaining this list, just to name a few." I agree, Jerry has created a great meeting place for all of us whether we are modelers or historians, or both, I love it. I would love to head up a PRR modelers group as an Internet social group, or a spin off of RPM, PMA or a SIG of NMRA or a SIG of the PRRT&HS, now that would be a novel concept and perhaps bring a whole lot of exmembers back as well as new members in. But it would have to have some funding and say matched funds from the Society to be sucessful. So a levy would have to be placed on the SIG to have the funds to be matched. And of course there are federal as well as state and private grants for just this kind of thing. I have brought his up before on the list but it has gone nowhere, so... I have many projects to reproduce in miniature for the PRR modelers who are interested and little time for politics, but I will remain an activist trying to bring about change as it was once said, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows..." Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:08:46 EST Subject: [PRR] C628 & C630 Looking thorugh Pennsy Power II I noticed that the PRR versions of these engines had only one marker light per side instead of the standard three that Alco was promoting. Did they have an internal mechanism to change the lens color or were they one color only and if so what color? Thanks for any input so that I can change my Stweart engines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Red paint Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:08:08 -0500 Dear Carl: I appreciate your intelligence and expertise. THAT bit about the toluidine red is a fasenating tidbit. How about more info (or professional speculation) on the enamels that PRR used, especially the early colors for wood cars. I am also interested in roof coatings. I spent many hours as a youth trying to find a "standard" color for boxcars, hoppers etc. by searching yards with color chips in hand. (Try to explain THAT to a RR cop when he is interested in why you are trespassing) I have never found two cars alike, let alone a significant number to determine a standard color. Looking at the current Branachline Trains ad in MR, they say, "There is no such thing as boxcar red..." and go on to show four boxcars with four different shades of red. Makes me feel a little better. :-) Peter Falles notebook quotes, in the Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering book notes that Pullman painted the roofs Tuscan red on some of their cars. Any comment about this? I would like to hear more on the subject of paint composition and color in the future. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: Carl Izzo To: Keller C. Vagel Cc: PRR-Talk Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 12:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Red paint >Hi Vagel: > >You'll find that, according to the Coatings Encyclopedic Dictionary >published by the Federation of Societies for Paint technology, toluidine red >is a synthetic pigment made by diazotizing 2-nitro-p-toluidine and coupling >this with B naphthol under alkaline conditions. It is a bright red like >that used as the background color for the Keystones on locomotives. > >The red you refer to is an iron oxide red. There are several shades of iron >oxide used as paint pigments. The problem is more complicated than just >switching from natural to synthetic pigments. Are we sure that the switch >happened in the 1950s? The type of resins used in the binders also >contributed to changes in colors both initially and after outdoor exposure. >The subject is really too lengthy to cover in this forum. > >BTW, when I had a real job, I was a paint chemist. > >Carl P. Izzo >Industrial Paint Consultant >PRRT&HS #832 > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 10:55:55 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re : PRR Brain Teaser Jim and the list, Photos exist of K4s engines in freight service. To give but one example, page 85 of Morning Sun's Pennsy Steam Years I shows a K4s hauling "light tonnage"; it was probably a power balance move. As far as the K4s' tonnage rating, it varied. Naturally, on the former Lines West, they could make their schedules with heavier consists. To quote Staufer and Pennypacker (Many Faces of the Pennsy K4) "...another train of 13 cars weighing 1150 tons ran the 148 miles from Chicago to fort Wayne in only 133 minutes, posting an average speed of 68.8 mph (page 119)." This was in 1939 and was undoubtedly a stoker fired K4s. In 1938, PRR used K4s Pacifics to participate in an AAR program to determine the horsepower necessary to haul 1000 tons at 100 mph. PRR used a 16 car consist of P70s, and the K4s maxed out at 92 mph; these engines were also stoker fired (Pennypacker and Staufer, 122). I can't remember where I read this, but up the East Slope from Altoona, the K4s had an 8 car rating (about 600 tons), which was why double headed K4s (and triple headers in some cases) were so common from Altoona to Pittsburgh. In the early 50s, K4s 3884 was used for braking tests on the PRSL; with a short test train, she hit 110 mph; so far as I know, this was the fastest K4s run ever. The K4s is my favorite engine; I model the New York and Long Branch because the K4s engines were the dominant power there for many years. Having said that, the K4s was horsepower limited compared to a T1 or (anathema) an NYC J3. However, she was sure-footed and reliable, and once fitted with stokers, most railroads had to use Hudsons and Mountains to exceed the performance of an engine designed in 1914. Hope this helps! Doug GenJim833@aol.com wrote: > Wasn't the K4 designed primarily as a passenger engine, which would account > for its 7 to 9 car pulling capacity? If you were to use it in freight > service, it would be like trying to use a pair of E8 passenger diesels to > pull a freight train without the appropriate gearing. In the steam era, which > was before my time, unfortunately, it seems to me that the Pennsylvania > Railroad had a specific locomotive type for a specific job and dispatched it > accordingly. From what little I know about Pennsy steam, the K4 type was > primarily a passenger engine, but could be used on some light freight jobs. I > can sure use an education in Pennsy steam, for it is the diesel I grew up > with. > > Jim Mancuso > Perry, NY > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 12:25:12 EST Subject: [PRR] Turnout templates Has anybody done anything with Cad or other methods of drawing to make turnout templates in HO? My main is going to have 48" radius curves and large turnouts and I am hoping to not reinvent the wheel if somebody has them in a file I could print. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnout templates Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 18:13:52 -0500 I have # 4, 6 and 8 in printed form. I can mail a copy to you. My scanner is obstinantly refusing to be recognized by my computer right now. Lew White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, February 12, 2000 12:29 PM Subject: [PRR] Turnout templates >Has anybody done anything with Cad or other methods of drawing to make >turnout templates in HO? My main is going to have 48" radius curves and >large turnouts and I am hoping to not reinvent the wheel if somebody has them >in a file I could print. Thanks. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:30:44 -0800 Subject: [PRR] X29's in battery service Hi Al & everyone else out there, I'm hoping to get a response on this from Al Buchan (Al, are you out there?), although if anyone else has any info on this topic I'd be more than glad for the extra input... At last year's PRRT&HS meet, Al Buchan mentioned that some company-service X-29 boxcars were used to transport old passenger-car batteries from passenger car facilities all around the system to Altoona, where the batteries would get rebuilt. These same cars then would be used to move the rebuilt batteries back for the return trip. I'm wanting to model one or more of these cars, and am looking for some specifics... My questions are as follows: (1) I believe Al mentioned these X-29's were typically moved in passenger trains. Is my memory correct on this point? (2) If the above is correct, this would imply the cars were equipped for operation in passenger service - extra grabs & stirrups and appropriate brakes and steam lines. But what paint & lettering did these cars wear? Were they painted & lettered in MoW garb? Or were they simply lettered same as freight X-29's? Or were these Railway Express X-29's, and therefore lettered for REA? To Al & everyone else, thanks in advance for any info... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 23:09:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] X29's in battery service Claus, I know of an HO scale X-29 that was released about 20? years by Train Miniature. I believe they did these cars up in the right colors. Their model was painted White with black tettering and with a large Shadow black Keystone. (mid 50's stlye) It Looked sharp. I still have one in my collection. For a prototype picture I believe there is one in the soft back book called "Freight and Passenger cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad". I don't have the book handy right now but I think they mention the color as white also. As for the handrail, steamline connections I do not recall. I do think they were hualed in regular freight service. Not sure though....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:05:39 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Paint Chemistry and Colors Good Morning, Carl, Given your past "real life" profession, would it be possible for you to offer suggestions as to how we modelers could obtain (by mixing or other legal approach), more accurate colors than are normally available in the Hobby market? I am referring to the fact that, since the changes in pigments required by government regulations over the last 20 or so years, almost all hobby colors have been reduced to washed-out "earth tones," whether they are reds, blues, greens, or in some cases, even shades of black? Currently available colors look so bad I often don't bother to paint new engines any more. Steve Bartlett PRRT&HS #1969 Subject: Red paint From: "Carl Izzo" Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 23:53:55 -0500 ........... BTW, when I had a real job, I was a paint chemist. Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint Consultant PRRT&HS #832 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] P-70FBR Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:51:39 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF7621.11EFF4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, I am currently buinding a few of Eastern Car Works P-70FBR coaches. = About ready to do the interiors, but I do not have floor plans to allow = me to install the seats. Is there someone out there who can direct me as = to the correct arrangement. I would like to know which end is which, = based upon the location of the porthole. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF7621.11EFF4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,
 
I am currently buinding a few of = Eastern Car Works=20 P-70FBR coaches. About ready to do the interiors, but I do not have = floor plans=20 to allow me to install the seats. Is there someone out there who can = direct me=20 as to the correct arrangement. I would like to know which end is which, = based=20 upon the location of the porthole.
Thanks in advance,
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF7621.11EFF4C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:06:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X29's in battery service In a message dated 2/12/2000 10:18:12 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I know of an HO scale X-29 that was released about 20? years by Train Miniature. I believe they did these cars up in the right colors. Their model was painted White with black tettering and with a large Shadow black Keystone. (mid 50's stlye) It Looked sharp. I still have one in my collection >> Have one, too. Question is, does anyone know what color and lettering they had in pre-1952? As far as operation, I will handle them the way company wheel cars, ballast cars etc, are handled today, that is, stick em in the next general freight headed where you want them to go on the system. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:08:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Duplexi last days Latest photo I have of a Q2 in service is August 1950. Anybody have a later date photo or does anyone know the last run date of an active Q2 or an active T1? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: C628 & C630 Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:08:03 -0000 Subject: C628 & C630 From: Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:08:46 EST In the later years the PRR did not use classification lights (white for extra and green for following sections). Therefore they only had red marker lamps installed for when the unit was running backwards as the last unit in pusher service or the last unit of a group of light engines. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:28:48 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Bashing, / was PRR Brain Teaser/Modeling List, My apoligies to those who are weary of society bashing and its rebuttals. Anyone who has read this list for any length of time has likely figured out that I support the Society and the volunteers, past and present, who have given up their spare time to collect, perserve, and document the PRR, giving the historical and model railroad comunities one of, if not the premeire railroad historical society with all of its benefits. Since the last round, I have made some inquires and have some observations. One complaint I have noted aired on this list several times is the content of the Keystone. I inquired about the content. I was told they print the articles they receive, they can't print what they don't have(seems logical). I have seen alot of expertese on a number of subjects just on this list. Any one for putting their expertice down in an article? Another complaint is the lack of modeling space given in the Keystone. After much thought, I have to agree with this whole heartedly. The Keystone is the only periodical that publishes PRR history with any regularity. The historical data does not have a shelf life, it does not become obsolete. The modeling articles in modeling magazines do have a shelf life. At this point I would fully support dropping the model reviews, as they have an even shorter shelf life and take space that could be better utilized! A good example of this is the excellent article about the X29 that came out what, 25 years ago? It's information is still very current. The product reviews from just a year ago are already mostly obsolete. Modelers make up a large number of of any historical society, and the historical and prototype data drive the modelers to higher levels of accuracy and authenticity. The hobby has long passed the idea that a model is "close enough". The best way to accomplish accuracy is with prototype data, not some other modelers interpetation of the prototype. An example of this is the general thumbs down the recent I1s article in one of the modeling magazines received in certain areas by the discriminating modelers on this list. Archives. I've seen complaints of the lack of accessability of the archives, and that they are not cataloged. Someone recently said "an uncataloged archive is useless". A recent Keystone requested volunteers to help catalog and organize the archives. I checked on the number of volunteers: By the date I checked, there were none. Guess we can't bash the society on that one any more. Guess we will have to start complaining about our selves and the other society members who do not think the archives are worth enough to spend our spare time on to help organize. "the society does not support modeling". This is pure unadultrated Bull S--t. The society has provided more help and info to raise the standard of PRR modeling that we receive today than anyother person or organization I know of. Anyone remember the 1" scale T1 being built by Ed Woodings that we all drooled over? How about the 1.5" scale E6 that was at a recent convention? We could also add the 7.5" gauge Q2's being built, one in Sacramento and the other in Pitts burg. The gorgous #1 gauge model america PRR models owe their accuracy to the soceity, the recent Precision scale B6sb was possible due to the soceity, the Kadee 2d-f8 truck was possible for the same reason, and the recent super scaled O scale H21 hopper would not have been the model it is with out the help of the society. Those who complain, GET REAL! IF SOME OF THE "GOOD AULD BOYS" HAD NOT TAKEN THEIR SPARE TIME TO DUMPSTER DIVE AND HUNT DOWN DATA, MANY OF THE FINE MODELS WE ENJOY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE TODAY! Its kind of like the old bumper sticker, "don't curse the farmer with your mouth full". TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Doug, > snip > > Personally my research is as much fun as the modeling, and I don't feel I > need to ask for help from a group from which I don't belong. Greg, you seem to have changed your mind about research, for on Sept. 4 99 you wrote: "Research I do by damn, modeling I do as a passion. By the time the models are done I feel that sometimes I have just crammed a college course, case in point was the article I did for Mainline Modeler on the FA/B/A-2 set. It was seven months of research because I felt that knowing only the PRR units was only part of the research and knowing the ALCo side was just as important." > >> "But then I also recognize I don't 'deserve' anything from a volunteer >> organization that requires someone to give up their spare time to fill my >> request. Perhaps an attitude adjustment on your part might help you get >> further with the society, or should I say the folks that are volunteering >> their spare time so you can enjoy yours." > > Why do you look down upon yourself like so, you deserve everything you ask > for, you paid your dues didn't you or did they comp you a membership? DO you > understand volunteer? No one is twisting their arms in order to have them > help YOU. If they don't want to be as helpful as they can then don't > volunteer! Simple! I personally don't feel I have an attitude, I am a > realist and it is hard for many to understand this, they (PRRT&HS) are what > they are (a Technical and Historical Society) and I am who I am, a PRR > Prototype Modeler. Greg, I do not look down on myself. I respect the people doing the work. I precieve your attitude to be "whats in it for me", a takers attitude, not a builders attitude. Fortunatly the founders and builders of the society did not have this attitude, or there would be only some private collections of PRR data, a very small group of insider "good old boys", and no society, and no Keystone. I am unwilling to ask someone to do for me what I am unwilling to do for them. I maybe unable to recipicate. but if I am unwilling to recipicate, I don't ask. Gets back to treating others as you would be treated. I am personally willing to help when I can, except when I meet selfish people whose only interest is "whats in it for me". Like I have said in so many words, the society would not exist if some unselfish people did not spend their spare time building the society to the benefit of others. >> "You keep mentioning a PRR modeling society. Great idea! Are you >> going >> to do anything about it or just talk about it? > >> I applaud the efforts of the many people who spend their time making this >> hobby more enjoyable, whether it be the "good old boys" of the society, the >> authors of the Keystone, or Jerry maintaining this list, just to name a few." > > > I agree, Jerry has created a great meeting place for all of us whether we are > modelers or historians, or both, I love it. I would love to head up a PRR > modelers group as an Internet social group, or a spin off of RPM, PMA or a > SIG of NMRA or a SIG of the PRRT&HS, now that would be a novel concept and > perhaps bring a whole lot of exmembers back as well as new members in. But > it would have to have some funding and say matched funds from the Society to > be sucessful. So a levy would have to be placed on the SIG to have the funds > to be matched. And of course there are federal as well as state and private > grants for just this kind of thing. I have brought his up before on the list > but it has gone nowhere, so... I have many projects to reproduce in > miniature for the PRR modelers who are interested and little time for > politics, but I will remain an activist trying to bring about change as it > was once said, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind > blows..." > Greg, I preceive by your comments that you are not going to make an effort to start a PRR modeling group. From my view, with this subject you are all talk and no action. Don't argue with me that I am wrong, don't provide excuses, prove me wrong by doing something. Until that point, please spare me and any others who enjoy the society your unfounded negative remarks about the society, especially when you are unwilling to make any effort to help. List, again my apologies to any others I have offended by the severity of this letter. I personally a tired of snide remarks and negative statements that are aimed at the society. Perhaps at some point we can put this type of behavior to bed. There is none of us anywhere that cannot add to the society in some way, shape or form, whether it be helping with the archives, volunteering at the convention, writing articals, etc. I live in Idaho, and with my 7.5" gauge 1920's era E6 project, am compiling data on the changes of the production lot of the E6. What are you doing to add? regards, Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:03:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Bashing, / Doug bashing... Doug and friends, Thank you Doug for your opinion, you may climb down off your soap box now. Few if any wish ill of the PRRT&HS. In fact many are members. Some members feel the "the Society" could be or should be, more modeler friendly. Some feel the senior members have their own "hidden agenda". I for one "wish" they would stop printing those stupid Amtak "club members ride to..." photos. The PRRT&HS is a historical group. That's their stock-in-trade. Let's let them do what they do. Please stop trying to enlist everyone to your way of thinking. This is a friendly newsgroup, let's keep it that way. Offer something to incease our knowledge, or just a quiet agreement when you learn something you wanted to know. Build upon what you know, help others in any way you can. We don't have time to fuss about what it is the PRRT&HS does or doesn't do. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 14:52:04 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Bashing, / Doug bashing... Ed, "My way of thinking" is respect for the society and the people who make it happen. Is this something you don't agree in? Doug snip >Please stop trying to enlist everyone to your way of thinking. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:07:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Bashing, / Doug bashing... To get off the topic a bit, I am considering modelling the Octoraro Branch as my first modelling venture and would like to know where I can get track diagrams for this line so that I can layout the track to match. It is to be an N gauge layout. The employee timetable does not seem to have enough information on this. Maybe a CT1000 would have some information. Does anyone have any ideas on this? Jim Mancuso Perry, NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 18:58:23 EST Subject: [PRR] WWII troop cars In a message dated 2/9/00 9:41:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29 writes: << According to Nehrich's book, the Allied full-cushions were outlawed Jan. 1, 1959. Other than arch bars, these appear to be the only type of truck actually outlawed by the AAR. Barry Peltier >> Thanks - but remember to include the word "Interchange" I believe that the Troop Sleeper car, used in work train service by the WM , at the museum in Bellevue Ohio is still wearing them. There are many anonymous historians among working railroaders. The Orriville (Ohio) RR Historical Society ordered a "scrap line" box car, for storage, some years ago. They were pleasantly surprised when this almost complete Troop Sleeper was delivered. Some switch crew recognized the signifigance of this car, and probably did extra work to pull it out of the scrap line and send it on it's way for possible preservation. Later, another crew must have turned a "blind eye" to the "outlaw" trucks when the Orrville Society traded it to Bellvue, (Ohio) for their museum. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:43:33 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars Dick, I saw a set of allied trucks under a car in use on the Alaska rr about 15 years ago. Don't remember the car at this point. ARR of course does not really have an interchange problem. Doug VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/9/00 9:41:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, BPX29 writes: > > << According to Nehrich's book, the Allied full-cushions were outlawed Jan. > 1, 1959. Other than arch bars, these appear to be the only type of truck > actually outlawed by the AAR. > Barry Peltier >> > > Thanks - but remember to include the word "Interchange" I believe that > the Troop Sleeper car, used in work train service by the WM , at the museum > in Bellevue Ohio is still wearing them. > There are many anonymous historians among working railroaders. The > Orriville (Ohio) RR Historical Society ordered a "scrap line" box car, for > storage, some years ago. They were pleasantly surprised when this almost > complete Troop Sleeper was delivered. Some switch crew recognized the > signifigance of this car, and probably did extra work to pull it out of the > scrap line and send it on it's way for possible preservation. > Later, another crew must have turned a "blind eye" to the "outlaw" trucks > when the Orrville Society traded it to Bellvue, (Ohio) for their museum. > > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:53:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: WWII troop cars Dick & folks, You're correct, of course, about the "interchange" stipulation. The much more decrepid arch bars can probably still be found under company service cars around the country, or at least until very recent times. I'm rapidly getting older, but I recall seeing them under maintanence cars seems like just yesterday, so to speak. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:55:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] WWII troop cars In one of those " I should have had a camera" situations, one other application for these cars I saw was one that was converted to a Safety car. It was parked on a track on the property of the main plant of Allis-Chalmers in West Allis, Wisconsin (about 1976). The car was a traveling store for selling safety shoes and outfitting safety glasses. I remember it was in good condition (at least externally) with a good and somewhat elaborate fancy paint job--that's why I wish I had a camera--can't remember a thing about the colors and lettering in any specifics. Anybody else ever see this car, either on a plant site or in transit? Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:03:38 -0500 From: "David J. Wartell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Octoraro Branch... A good source on the Octoraro Branch is the Philadelphia Chapter's Highline dated Spring-Autumn 1986. It includes a track chart from 1947, as well as pictures and description of the branch. I don't know if the chapter has anymore of this issue available. I know you can find used copies of the Highline around at train shows. Dave At 6:07 PM -0500 02/13/2000, GenJim833@aol.com wrote: >To get off the topic a bit, I am considering modelling the Octoraro Branch as >my first modelling venture and would like to know where I can get track >diagrams for this line so that I can layout the track to match. It is to be >an N gauge layout. The employee timetable does not seem to have enough >information on this. Maybe a CT1000 would have some information. Does anyone >have any ideas on this? > > >Jim Mancuso >Perry, NY > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". Dave Wartell djwartel@ix.netcom.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:46:57 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Paint Chemistry and Colors --On Son, 13. Feb 2000 09:05 -0500 "Stephen Bartlett" wrote: > would it be possible ... to > offer suggestions as to how we modelers could obtain (by mixing or other > legal approach), more accurate colors than are normally available in the > Hobby market? Browsing the paint shelves at my local hobby shop yesterday, I decided to experiment with mixtures of two shades of Floquil's Polly-S water soluable RR colors, Zinc Chromate Primer and Caboose Red, to see if I can get a close match to the base color used by Red Caboose on its X-29 kits (which seems to be the acknowledged "only one to get it close to right"). In past such experiments, I've mixed steam power black with caboose red at a ratio to 1:5 to get a very close match to the N6B at Harrisburg, which seems to have avoided any slings and arrows. I'll report my findings when the opportunity occurs. Mr. Izzo's extensive experience jibes well with many first-person accounts of base colors varying in shade depending on the lot and the paint shop. But, it still remains to deal with the observed modeling fact that all but the heaviest weathering of a post-1952 shade of freight car color (ie, Bowser) can't give it the clearly orange-red hue underlying the grime of a weathered Pennsy freight car in the WW 2 era (and, by extension, the 20s and 30s). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Branch Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:49:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7663.C1E651C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evening Everyone...Anyone know if the Keystone has completed any = articles on the Cumberland Valley Branch? Along with the normal = research I'm doing..it would be nice to know the motive power and engine = assignments. Era that I am modeling will be transition with late steam = and first generation diesel. I would like to include Hagerstown, = Greencastle , Shippensburg. Also, would it be wise to be specific for a = date in order to get engine assignments? As always, I'd appreciate any = help from everyone with industries served. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7663.C1E651C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evening Everyone...Anyone know if the Keystone has = completed=20 any articles on the Cumberland Valley Branch? Along with the normal = research=20 I'm doing..it would be nice to know the motive power and engine = assignments. Era=20 that I am modeling will be transition with late steam and first = generation=20 diesel. I would like to include Hagerstown, Greencastle , Shippensburg. = Also,=20 would it be wise to be specific for a date in order to get engine = assignments?=20 As always, I'd appreciate any help from everyone with industries=20 served.
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF7663.C1E651C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "rholden" Subject: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Branch Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:53:58 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF7664.731C39A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry, I forgot to place my address for info on the Cumberland Valley! = Bob Holden. rholden@superpa.net =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF7664.731C39A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry, I forgot to place my address for info on the = Cumberland=20 Valley! Bob Holden. rholden@superpa.net =20
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF7664.731C39A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:41:48 -0500 In regards to the Arbour Models J-1, I never built one, but I heard that it was a real bear to put together. If I were Bowser, I would start from scratch. Maybe there is something from the Arbour Models version that can be salvaged. But I think it came out in the '70's; it might be better to start anew.... My 2 cents worth.... Ted Andrews P.S.: My prediction is that there will be at least another company besides Bowser that will suddenly "discover" the need for a good J-1 and race Bowser in coming out with it first. Just like the RS-3 in 1985 (Atlas, Stewart, Roundhouse) and the EMD F-unit in 2000 (Athearn Genesis, Stewart, Proto 1000, Intermountain, MRC, Highliner.....have I left anybody out?) Honestly, model railroad marketers are the craziest people! :P -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 7:20 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? List, I have just returned from visiting the PRRT&HS home page. On their discussion page someone has made mention of the possibility of Bowser releaseing a new Locomotive. Guess which one??? None other than the J1-J1a Class. The post said that they (Bowser) is searching for diagrams and such to help them produce this. Also mentioned in the post is that Bowser owns the old Arbour Models J1 molds. Could this be a rerelease of this loco or is there all new die work in the works? Hmmm. May have to look into this Bowser Loco. Anyone else hear anything on this, Jerry? how bout you? Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lew matt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnout templates Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 19:26:12 -0500 When you plan a curved turnout, you can make a curved frog but it is easier to make the frog point straight. When I plan a crossover, I draw the two parallel track center lines, then draw the diverging line (crossover track center) between the two track centers. The angle of this diverging line is the turnout angle #8 or #10 etc. Where the diverging line intersects the center line, is the location of the heel of the switch points for either of the turnouts. (Heel is the point pivot location) Now add two more lines each, for the two parallel tracks (you are drawing the inside of the railhead, where the gage is calculated, just measure half the track gage from each side of the centerline) and the diverging centerline. Your lines now look like Lionel tracks, left, right and center line. You can see EXACTLY where the points of your frogs are located. Rule of thumb: the length of your points, from heel to toe, can be equal to the distance from the heel of the points to the point of the frog. For two curved turnouts forming a crossover, the process is the same except now your centerlines are concentric radii,and the track for the diverging or crossover route is a spiral arc segment line. Easiest way to accurately lay this out is to take a flexible strip of wood, like a thin yardstick, on edge, and place it over the centerlines of one track to the other and hold it only at each end, right on the centerlines. The board will flex and form an almost perfect spiral arc between the two curved tracks. Have someone else, very carefully, draw a line along the edge of the yardstick to locate this spiral line. This is the centerline of your curved crossover or divergant track. Locate the track gage relative to the centerline by plotting points and connecting them until you have your "Lionel track" drawing again, only it is all curved lines this time. If you can, make about two inches of straight track where the frogs fall. It is SO MUCH easier to form a straight frog than a curved one. On really large radii curve, you really can't tell if there is a short segment of straight track at the frog anyway. One method I use to locate my inside rail head lines is to set a compass at one-half the track gage and slide the point leg of the compass along my centerline (against a rule or curved yardstick) and the other leg, with the pencil point or ink cassette, draws the line representing the inside edge of the railhead. I hope this helps you. I can't get to Chicago this week, :-) but I can help you with your template drawing via mail if you need. Lew Matt White Buck Farm is a certified organic grower that markets a wide selection of jams, jellies, pickles, dried fruits and vegetables and herbs. We are located in Greene County, Pennsylvania, USA WHITE BUCK FARM IS A CERTIFIED ORGANIC GROWER AND FOLLOWS RIGID ORGANIC GROWING TECHNIQUES E-mail your snail-mail address to us for our current price list for our all-natural jams, jellies, preserves, relishes and pickles. -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: lmatt@alltel.net Date: Sunday, February 13, 2000 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Turnout templates >Thanks, my plan calls for a couple of curved turnouts from 48" to 50" radius >where the high line will join the passenger tracks from 30th St. I am really >most concerned about properly laying out the correct radii and may have to >use some snaptrack rubbings to get it right. If you want to come to Chicago >and work on it let me know the time. LOL > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:16:56 -0800 From: Stueart Engineering Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? Ted, I knew of one that outfit that was going to try to beat Kato when Kato was bringing out the N scale F units... fits right in with what you are predicting! Doug Andrews, Ted wrote: > > > My 2 cents worth.... > > Ted Andrews > > P.S.: My prediction is that there will be at least another company besides > Bowser that will suddenly "discover" the need for a good J-1 and race Bowser > in coming out with it first. Just like the RS-3 in 1985 (Atlas, Stewart, > Roundhouse) and the EMD F-unit in 2000 (Athearn Genesis, Stewart, Proto > 1000, Intermountain, MRC, Highliner.....have I left anybody out?) > > Honestly, model railroad marketers are the craziest people! :P ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 23:14:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? In a message dated 2/13/00 11:07:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, stueart@ior.com writes: > Ted, > > I knew of one that outfit that was going to try to beat Kato when Kato > was bringing out the N scale F units... fits right in with > what you are predicting! > > Doug Don't forget the original SD40-2 race between GSB(?) and Athearn in the 80's Seriously though, and I know this is off the PRR thread so I'll be brief, I don't see why the Major model makers don't just get together and decide who is doing what so each gets a portion of the market share. I do realize that with the RS-3 example each model was a slightly different phase. But since most model makers out there have limited capital to work with it might be a good idea. Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 20:44:33 -0800 Subject: [PRR] More on Battery X29 Hi PRR-Talk list members and Bill, Thanks to everyone for pointing me to the photo of the "battery" x29 on page 64 of Wayner's "Cars of the PRR". Still unresolved is wether these cars operated in passenger trains. A little inspection of the photo reveals that the car has the following lettering on it: SIGNAL PIPE COCKS & HOSE StEAM PIPE VALVES METALLIC CONNECTORS I'm no expert, but this lettering does seem to indicate the car is passenger-equipped. Further, the hoses at the end of the car appear to be more numerous than would be typical for a normal freight car. So evidence does seem to indicate the car could (and probably did) operate in passenger service. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 01:18:05 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [PRR] [PRR-TALK] Grousing All, As the soon-to-be retiring editor of the Railway Signaling T&HS quarterly, I need to make a few comments. I'm usually a lurker on most of the email lists I belong to; I still have a lot to learn. After 2 years of being editor, I reading in PRR-TALK emails the same type of comments I eventually get on our renewal forms. Why not this or that? I have this or that proto/model info. Where are the articles?? I could NOT make anyone do an article!! Nor can any editor. If you are at ground zero on info, instead of grousing via email for a year, save the small fractions of typing time and go to the PRRT&HS Archives & volunteer a day and help in whatever manner they need at the moment. Set part of the time aside for your own interests; 4 hours for you, 4 hours for the society or whatever ratio that makes you feel good. But, PUT SOMETHING BACK for the society. The goodies will get sorted a lot faster if everyone PITCHES IN, not B+TCHES! Sending in your annual dues helps only with the finances. If you want more, VOLUNTEER! If you have the basis for a modeling article, dig out the proto info & make a combo article. It all starts with the proto info! How else do you guarantee accuracy?? Yeah, it's hard work researching but rewarding. There are a lot of blind alleys, but the tidbits of info start popping up & the friendships made over common interests are 1000 times better than reading a whining note/email. For those who care or don't care, I got my railroad experience for 8 years as part of the startup/maintenance team for the Westinghouse equipped Metroliners starting 32 years ago. It was a bit of culture shock to go from college to between the traction motors and the ties to change out a speed sensor. And I have also dined at a federal lobbyist's home in DC because of our mutual railroad interests. Your choice... whining or doing. --Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:30:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention 2000 Schedule From: Jerry Britton The near-final schedule for the 2000 Convention of the PRRT&HS may now be viewed online. The seminars are pretty well set in stone, though their arrangement in time slots may yet shift. Looks like a pretty good lineup! See the schedule on the Cyber Division's web site at http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com A PRR-Talk/Cyber Division get-together is in the works, likely for dinner on Friday night, based on the schedule. More details to follow... --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:26:39 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? I believe the Federal Government calls that "Conspiracy in restraint of trade" for which treble damage fines are applied. That ought to stop the conversation! Other than that, I agree that agreements as to who will make what, might keep manufacturers from wasting scarce resources on models that won't sell well. But to the Government's point, it also would allow them to introduce cheap (that's a measure of quality - not price!) stuff at high prices knowing that the buyers had no alternative! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== FarbLand@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 2/13/00 11:07:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, stueart@ior.com > writes: > > > Ted, > > > > I knew of one that outfit that was going to try to beat Kato when Kato > > was bringing out the N scale F units... fits right in with > > what you are predicting! > > > > Doug > Don't forget the original SD40-2 race between GSB(?) and Athearn in the 80's > Seriously though, and I know this is off the PRR thread so I'll be brief, I > don't see why the Major model makers don't just get together and decide who > is doing what so each gets a portion of the market share. I do realize that > with the RS-3 example each model was a slightly different phase. But since > most model makers out there have limited capital to work with it might be a > good idea. > > Brian C > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:32:39 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70FBR Walt, As I recall, The car had the two rest rooms at the porthole end. That's what the portholes were. The corridor was down the middle of the car at each end. They were small rest rooms for day trips only. The FBR's were not overnight coaches. For that the PRR used P70k's or P85B's. At the other end of the car, the corridor was flanked with equipment lockers. The seats could face either end, or be mixed, as the were reversible. Just as an aside, what are you using for seats?? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== > Walt Prusick wrote: > > Dear List, > > I am currently buinding a few of Eastern Car Works P-70FBR coaches. > About ready to do the interiors, but I do not have floor plans to > allow me to install the seats. Is there someone out there who can > direct me as to the correct arrangement. I would like to know which > end is which, based upon the location of the porthole. > Thanks in advance, > Walt Prusick -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:45:07 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Octoraro Branch... Jim Asked: >At 6:07 PM -0500 02/13/2000, GenJim833@aol.com wrote: >>To get off the topic a bit, I am considering modelling the Octoraro Branch as >>my first modelling venture and would like to know where I can get track >>diagrams for this line so that I can layout the track to match. It is to be >>an N gauge layout. The employee timetable does not seem to have enough >>information on this. Maybe a CT1000 would have some information. Does anyone >>have any ideas on this? Dave Replied: >A good source on the Octoraro Branch is the Philadelphia Chapter's >Highline dated Spring-Autumn 1986. It includes a track chart from >1947, as well as pictures and description of the branch. I don't know >if the chapter has anymore of this issue available. I know you can >find used copies of the Highline around at train shows. >From the Philly Chapter Web site: Volumes 6-3&4, 7-1 The Octoraro Branch (Summer 1986, 4th printing). Known as the Mushroom Train issue, this Highline is packed with information, pictures, timetables and track plans of this wonderful, interesting branch and the towns that it served. It cost a whole $10! Go to the Order form at: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_Order_Form.htm I think I'm the guilty party who got Jim thinking about this branch . I have this reprint (a collection of 3 issues of the Highline) and it is FANTASTIC! There is a complete track chart, information about operations, photos galore and some great history too. I purchased it with the intent that it would give me some info on the Octoraro Branch's interchange with the C&PD, and ended up realizing that i would have to include at least part of this great branch on my own layout! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:45:41 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? Gary Asked: >Also mentioned in the post is that >Bowser owns the old Arbour Models J1 molds. Could this be a rerelease of >this loco or is there all new die work in the works? Hmmm. May have to >look into this Bowser Loco. Ted Andrews replied >In regards to the Arbour Models J-1, I never built one, but I heard that it >was a real bear to put together. If I were Bowser, I would start from >scratch. Maybe there is something from the Arbour Models version that can be >salvaged. But I think it came out in the '70's; it might be better to start >anew.... Bottom line, according to Bowser, none of the Arbour molds was salavagable. Thus, IF they are doing a J-1, they will be doing it from scratch...one hope they get it right . NOW might be a very good time to send them your sugestions on things you would like to see in the model (within reason!)...for example, the ability to model "short" vs "exposed" sand lines as discussed here a few months ago. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:59:12 EST Subject: [PRR] U30C from a U36C Several years ago I got a good price - $20.00 each - on two Atlas U36C's NIB. Alas they are in Milwaukee paint and I have debated if I should paint them PRR realizing they were delivered in PC paint. Has anybody used the Atlas mechanism with an AThearn shell to make a good running U 30C and were there any difficulties? Seems like it should be pretty straiht forward at this point. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 09:59:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Octoraro Branch... Another question pertaining to this branch is what diesel motive power is appropriate for the line. Would an RS3 or two do the trick? Due to my printer being down, I am unable to print the order from for the publication with that wealth of information in it, other wise I would send an order in for it. Jim Mancuso Perry, NY 14530 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:02:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? - Confirmed! From: Jerry Britton On 2/14/00 9:45 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Bottom line, according to Bowser, none of the Arbour molds was salavagable. > Thus, IF they are doing a J-1, they will be doing it from scratch...one > hope they get it right . NOW might be a very good time to send them > your sugestions on things you would like to see in the model (within > reason!)...for example, the ability to model "short" vs "exposed" sand > lines as discussed here a few months ago. I can confirm the Bowser J-1 project. Ivan Franz, treasurer of the PRRT&HS Northern Central chapter and a director of the society, has been in direct talks with Lee English at Bowser. Lee contacted Ivan about the possibility of getting drawings from the Society to make sure the model is accurate (imagine that!). The Society has not yet gotten to the large drawings at Lewistown, but Ivan got in touch with his contact at the State Archives and arranged for the drawings to get to Bowser. Using the drawings, Ivan urged Lee to create a J-1 that was fully accurate for at least one road number, rather than the "hodge podge" that they normally produce. Response was good. Ivan also recommended they take a stab at, if I recall, the N2sa. I may have the class wrong, but Bowser already makes a USRA version. Ivan pointed out that all that would be needed would be a new boiler to fit the existing frame and that all the PRR-specific detail parts are already available from Cal Scale (which is owned by Bowser). --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in HO Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For Brass Enthusiasts (under development) http://www.brasstrains.net For Dealers and Manufacturers http://modelrailroadnews.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:18:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] New Bowser Loco??? Bruce wrote: Bottom line, according to Bowser, none of the Arbour molds was salavagable. Thus, IF they are doing a J-1, they will be doing it from scratch...one hope they get it right . NOW might be a very good time to send them your sugestions on things you would like to see in the model (within reason!)...for example, the ability to model "short" vs "exposed" sand lines as discussed here a few months ago. Happy rails Bruce Bruce, I was going to and still may email Bowser today about this J1 proposal. If they are indeed interested and are looking for info on details to help them manufacture a truly nice looking J1 all they need to do is have an HO Scale Key J1 on hand for measurments of parts. If not the model itself, at least do what Samhongsa did. FOLLOW the plans they are given instead of doing short cuts, or "close enough" techniques alot of the model manufactures fall for. I would be the first to loan them plans for a J1, IF I had them. They are out there somewhere, becuase the final result of the Key J1 is proof. Brass quality from a DieCast model is now a available with todays technology. Have you see any MTH DieCast O scale Steamers? WOW, I don't know how they do it!. Especially the NKP Berk and the CNW Hudson. Not to roam to far off the subject, but I can see the day when MTH produces a J1 also....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY and http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 10:27:39 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] U30C from a U36C On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > Several years ago I got a good price - $20.00 each - on two Atlas U36C's NIB. > Alas they are in Milwaukee paint and I have debated if I should paint them > PRR realizing they were delivered in PC paint. Has anybody used the Atlas > mechanism with an AThearn shell to make a good running U 30C and were there > any difficulties? Seems like it should be pretty straiht forward at this > point. Thanks. I have. I needed to shave the bottoms of the holes for the handrails, and even then it's snug. It also looks to ride a bit high, but I've not pulled anything out to check yet. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------