Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 06:25:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: New Bright Christmas Train From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 556850c4f3bff1ea7c1e6a0862bb791e My father just recevied, as a gift, a decorative G scale train set designed for "under the Christmas tree" use. Supposedly there are additional cars available, but we can't locate the manufacturer...New Bright. Has anyone ever heard of this company or know how we might contact them? Thanks. > The Christmas train Gary & Peg got us (esp. Sandy) is called The Holiday > Express Animated Train Set made by New Bright (whoever that is). Carton is > marked No. 980, but brochure with it says 380/980 so I don't know what the > difference is. It came with the Engine, Wood Tender, Candy Pump Car, Caboose, > and they included a Bakery Car (jacobsons dept. store as part of the deal). > The brochure says a Santa's Water Tank Car and Santa's Log Mill Car are also > available. The train unit is a "G" gauge. > However there is no address, no nothing about New Bright or where or how to > order. Jacobson's brochure says they are $29 each but other than that, I can > find no info. With your train stuff knowledge, I was wondering if you had > access to, or ever heard of New Bright. I'd like to order those two extra > cars for her to complete set---'cause who knows, New Bright may not be around > to order from in the future, and the complete set probably would be worth > more later on. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BudPCCRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:57:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: H-10 tenders X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 16606d668bde78e0bd52c1599c72fcf8 I am looking for plans for H-10 tenders. I presently have an article from June54 MR on building one in O scale, and the NMRA library is sending the article from the spring 87 Keystone. Anyone know of any other resources? Thanks, Bud Brock ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:49:57 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago Show items X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 84c178a364d120215fdb08e047d8fb1e www.onerrave.com (One Railroad Avenue) has a Chicago show report online already... with photos of the P2K 2-8-8-2, CB&T X29B, the Atlas GP40 Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 11:43:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg / CV Station From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 976ac515cb307872b7b2b2d6e7779d8c In the early annals of passenger traffic into Harrisburg, there was a union station shared by the PRR, the Northern Central Railway, the Cumberland Valley Railroad, and the Reading. Prior to the turn of the century, the PRR built its own station, shared with the NCRy. This is the building that remains today. The Reading (& Central of New Jersey) built their own station which was later razed in the early 1950's on the site that now is the post office. Even though the NCRy came into town over the CV's bridge and used the PRR's station, the CV built its own new station. It was a tiny, but several story structure which had a triangular base by the end of the curved Mulberry Street Bridge. Triumph II includes several views of this structure. One claims to be circa 1903. Others appear to be 1920's and 30's, based upon the types of passenger cars present. Does anyone know when this (Cumberland Valley) station was razed? I am specifically interested in knowing if it survived through 1954, the year that I am modeling. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:01:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Louisville and the PRR Arbegust Street Branch X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 66ea6260e8d9f4dd4d0cb026d85ef9df In a message dated 10/28/99 9:54:18 PM Mountain Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << but if you wanted to turn a T-1, it had to go on back across the bridge to a wye big enough to turn it. Might be an 8 mile round trip. >> Rick, A while ago I indicated that there was a wye at Clagg Tower to turn stuff as big as a T-1. That would be to use the IC connection between the PRR and their line to Water Street. This connected to the K&IT's river front line. Then down the K&IT's river front line to the K&IT connection back up to the PRR. After thinking about this a while I realized that the PRR could also head South down the L&N's leads from Union Station to one of three different wyes to turn. One being the wye at the L&N's "A" Street Tower. The second being the wye formed by the Monon and K&IT connections at Magnolia Street. The third would be at the L&N's South Louisville Shops where the L&N's Main Stem and Railway Transfer lines connected. This is where the L&N's Roundouse was. It sat inside this wye with the connection track running behind the roundhouse. These would all be viable options for the PRR to turn larger steam power on. What do you think? Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:09:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] New Titles From Withers From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f87522c9b667e9c645cce6bfc4d22ab1 Just passing on that I've received two new titles from Withers in stock: "Erie-builts and H20-44s" by Sweetland "Pennsy Electric Pictorial" by Zak & Withers. Both available in the eStore! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 17:19:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Holiday Super Sale! From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 73d643aa17c847bd0aeda519750d3a80 I've just posted our Holiday Super Sale to the eStore web site. Significant savings on Bowser locomotives, Digitrax DCC Starter Systems, Bethlehem Car Works scenery and horse cars, and Miracle Castings shells! See http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:19:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Y3's X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6cdf4ada9a9ca82ac5a61d474cdd840e In a message dated 10/29/99 10:27:14 AM Mountain Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Just seen some reports and photos of the new N&W USRA 2-8-8-2 (PRR HH1) as seen at the Chicago MR Industry show. Hopefully pictures don't lie but this is one unbelieveable looking plastic Loco. >> They don't lie. It is incredible. << The detail from the photos is stunning. >> That's a good way to describe it. << I also hope it runs as good as it looks and they are able to be found once they are released. >> They do run that good. I just got home from Chicago. I was there with Model Railroad News Magazine to cover the show, and I got to look at the new LL Y3A first hand. It is stellar! Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:21:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas SD-35 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 194c3276dbe72e473844ab3b19085256 In a message dated 10/29/99 11:30:17 AM Mountain Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I thought only in N? >> That is correct. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:44:18 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Y3's X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ee41b413a8f01a299fb22e1ba3aadc44 >I just got home from Chicago. I was there with Model Railroad News Magazine >to cover the show, and I got to look at the new LL Y3A first hand. It is >stellar! > >Stuart Thayer Stuart et al., Did they mention, hint, or otherwise say anything about a PRR version????? that is, should I rush to buy the undec and detail it myself, or will they help us out here? BTW, definitely not "rivarossi" flanges...from the photos the flanges look very delicate. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:44:25 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Atlas SD-35 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b196e1eeb46793d6052e5af671c5069d On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 Stuthayer@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/29/99 11:30:17 AM Mountain Standard Time, > shadow@dementia.org writes: > > << I thought only in N? >> > > > That is correct. In which case they can't get the paint wrong like last time, can they? I wasn't aware they had ever done an N scale SD35 to screw up, and the HO SD35 was actually done by Roco for Atlas, if you want to get technical about it. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:51:36 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: New Bright Christmas Train X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4f20c9cfa8051e3855679640d0844b1e >My father just recevied, as a gift, a decorative G scale train set designed >for "under the Christmas tree" use. Supposedly there are additional cars >available, but we can't locate the manufacturer...New Bright. Has anyone >ever heard of this company or know how we might contact them? Thanks. Jerry, Ah...relatives...my mother-in-law bought the set last year...each year apparently they release the set with new cars. This year, Walthers is advertising both the set ($179) and the additional cars ($31.98 each). How to describe the set???? well...gharish comes to mind however, it was EXACTLY what she wanted...Santa calls "all aboard" and "hohoho" the train has train sounds and every car is animated. Supposedly, each car comes with 2 pieces of track...I want to know if curved track is available. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Y3's Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:36:26 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1215238f0b8a0b2f1984fd1098f7357c The quote from Life Like was "we are not planning on rerunning the 2-8-8-2 AT THIS TIME". I found it interesting that there was a gap in the sequential part numbers. Two numbers are missing. But, I believe that Virginian also had these locus. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Y3's >>I just got home from Chicago. I was there with Model Railroad News Magazine >>to cover the show, and I got to look at the new LL Y3A first hand. It is >>stellar! >> >>Stuart Thayer > >Stuart et al., > >Did they mention, hint, or otherwise say anything about a PRR version????? >that is, should I rush to buy the undec and detail it myself, or will they >help us out here? BTW, definitely not "rivarossi" flanges...from the >photos the flanges look very delicate. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > >PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 16:50:07 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 042a3f3cde5b345a1ceeba125dcdfff1 Hi, I thought some Listers might enjoy seeing the restored 1929 PRR wood, cupola, cabin car at . Enjoy, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 113 West 17th Street, Leadville, CO 80461 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:48:10 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] About the Athearn (Highliner) F unit paint X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 637c3415965d50827f6e2080149b76ae Here's what Athearn says: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:27:40 EST From: Athearn@aol.com To: shadow@dementia.org Subject: Re: [D] anyone have contacts at Athearn? [excerpted text snipped] You're right. Those are MS decals, and are tooooo big. We'll have them right when produced. Now YOU have a contact at Athearn. John Engstrom Athearn, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BCFDevd@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:06:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: New Bright Christmas Train X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 788de3190e89b7701f6848af4b84b5cc In a message dated 11/01/1999 6:37:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << My father just recevied, as a gift, a decorative G scale train set designed for "under the Christmas tree" use. Supposedly there are additional cars available, but we can't locate the manufacturer...New Bright. Has anyone ever heard of this company or know how we might contact them? Thanks. >> I purchased a set a few years ago. I got the extra cars through my local hobby shop and I have also seen them at the local train show. From what I hear , this years car will be the last one ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 22:14:52 EST Subject: [PRR] GLCA Question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6f98c26a0155ac7a73ff25a0795032e8 With regards to the question about build dates for GLCA, the PRR began rebuilding GLC cars to class GLCA in 1941. Apparently the only difference was the addition of AB brakes and a power hand brake. According to the Westerfield documentation, all GLC's were rebuilt by 1950. One would have to browse the ORER's for that time period to try to guess which cars were done each year! Have fun! Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:19:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GLCA Question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b96a6ce6082fb1438c110451cdd8efee The history of the GLCA is a bit easier to follow, if punctuated Pennsy style: All cars are a subclass and "follow on" of the GL. They were originally GL or GLa and were converted to GLc and then Modified to GLca The lower case letters help in the understanding. The classification of much later USRA hopper as GLd was, I believe, a PRR swipe at USRA technology. Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:10:12 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 71622415e05b9f7570801d7af977bad5 >Hi, > >I thought some Listers might enjoy seeing the restored 1929 PRR wood, >cupola, cabin car at . > >Enjoy, Roger Hi All, For the sake of speed and ease of finding it...the complete URL is: http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/November1999/991101.htm and scroll to the bottom of the page. Ok, refresh my memory...what class is this cabin???? It certainly doesn't appear to be an N-6b...Is this an N6A, NDA, or the elusive N4? It is clearly a modified bobber due to the close-set side windows... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:52:39 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0801dc10aef117e89e74eceaca23f8fe "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > >Hi, > > > >I thought some Listers might enjoy seeing the restored 1929 PRR wood, > >cupola, cabin car at . > > > >Enjoy, Roger > > Hi All, > > For the sake of speed and ease of finding it...the complete URL is: > http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/November1999/991101.htm and scroll to the bottom > of the page. > > Ok, refresh my memory...what class is this cabin???? It certainly doesn't > appear to be an N-6b...Is this an N6A, NDA, or the elusive N4? > > It is clearly a modified bobber due to the close-set side windows... > > Happy Rails > Bruce Took a look at the picture. I have no knowledge of variations for Pennsy cabins. I saw a similar caboose on Rt. 50 on the Eastern Shore about 7 years painted the bright red of N&W. Could it be that some SPF painted an old N&W or C&O cabin?? Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:15:05 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car Humor X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 497b605f68199961f7f3f308b66d45fe Tom & Listers, Most of you took my little Delmar joke well. Thank you! The fake PRR caboose is C&O 90951/B&O 90951. Sad to see this in an "historical" display. Cheers, Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:21:49 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 02b3307859bd9de1c3db5df0dae2dd1f Pure speculation, but Delmar was the northern terminus of the old NYP&N.Since this was 1929 and shortly after NYP&N was merged into the main PRR, could this be a rebuild of a older NYP&N cabin? AJ Cassatt did most things in PRR fashion but not everything. The basic structure looks very PRRish. JimMcDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: FW: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:23:36 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3802dbf261b1bff98eb28402b723e17c This doesn't seem to be a PRR cabin car. Although its similar looking to an N6A the cupola is wrong because its sides should be flush with the walls of the cabin. The steps appear to be appropriate for an N5 but not an N6. The N6 had wooden steps. Any other comments? > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Mahon [SMTP:tmahon@cfnh.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 9:53 AM > To: PRR Talk > Cc: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car > > "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > > >Hi, > > > > > >I thought some Listers might enjoy seeing the restored 1929 PRR wood, > > >cupola, cabin car at . > > > > > >Enjoy, Roger > > > > Hi All, > > > > For the sake of speed and ease of finding it...the complete URL is: > > http://www.rypn.org/Briefs/November1999/991101.htm and scroll to the > bottom > > of the page. > > > > Ok, refresh my memory...what class is this cabin???? It certainly > doesn't > > appear to be an N-6b...Is this an N6A, NDA, or the elusive N4? > > > > It is clearly a modified bobber due to the close-set side windows... > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > Took a look at the picture. I have no knowledge of variations for Pennsy > cabins. I saw a similar caboose on Rt. 50 on the Eastern Shore about 7 > years > painted the bright red of N&W. Could it be that some SPF painted an old > N&W or > C&O cabin?? > > Tom Mahon > Merrimack, NH > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:55:29 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car Humor X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fc7567d4a5ef39eaa73c6e0e35fdd7ab In a message dated 11/2/99 9:25:47 AM Central Standard Time, caboose@chaffee.net writes: << Most of you took my little Delmar joke well. Thank you! The fake PRR caboose is C&O 90951/B&O 90951. Sad to see this in an "historical" display. >> I was trying to think of a polite, gentle comment after observing the website. At least I did guess C&O/B&O. I agree it is sad. But it is amazing what floats some people's boats. In our club we face an opportunity to have a "Park" gauge RR. Opportunity to have an old narrow gauge industrial Diesel. People want to put fake plywood boilers and cowcatchers on it to haul passenger-carrying cars. Others of us appreciate it for what it is in its genuine state. Less is more, form follows function. It is a genuine historical piece which can and should stand on its own and will be fun to restore and operate. I am hoping we will win the battle. Tangent to PRR-Talk, but appropriate to any of us who have an opportunity to try and preserve something from the past. And,appropos of the caboose, there is undoubtedly a frustrated C&O/B&O fan out there looking for preserved cabooses. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:14:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] What Do YOU Want At The 2000 Convention From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1a2e130c936702b005e9b26325597d1d In a week and a half, I will be attending a planning session for the next PRRT&HS Convention, to be held in Camp Hill, Pa., May 4-6, 2000. With any criticisms of prior conventions aside, what types of seminars/events would you like to see? For those who know the area, suggestions for tours are also welcome. Displays of modular layouts (mostly N) are already in the works, and I am looking into a private open house at the Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society (http://kmrhs.pennsyrr.com) in nearby Mechanicsburg. Their HO layout requires 15 minutes for a train to get all the way around! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 14:02:26 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] What Do YOU Want At The 2000 Convention X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4212a37e890faf070c15e8f7975031de Hi Jerry: I would like to see some fine home layouts on tour, even if it means a little travel. Several years ago, at the convention in Wilmington, buses were chartered to take us to two very fine home layouts. Maybe I'm alone, but to me, this was the best part of the convention. So many SPF's are serious model railroaders, and like to enjoy the works of other individuals in the hobby. Pennsy layouts would be the preference, but there are other RR's out there too, I think? Regards, Larry Jerry Britton wrote: > In a week and a half, I will be attending a planning session for the next > PRRT&HS Convention, to be held in Camp Hill, Pa., May 4-6, 2000. > > With any criticisms of prior conventions aside, what types of > seminars/events would you like to see? > > For those who know the area, suggestions for tours are also welcome. > > Displays of modular layouts (mostly N) are already in the works, and I am > looking into a private open house at the Keystone Model Railroad Historical > Society (http://kmrhs.pennsyrr.com) in nearby Mechanicsburg. Their HO layout > requires 15 minutes for a train to get all the way around! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 16:43:55 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] MP-54s in HO X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5334f283cecde807777a73bd292ce81a Have you folks noticed the small classified ad in MR for HO resin MP-54 kits!! The company has a web site at www.bcity.com/ewchase. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:50:43 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] PRR cabin car ,new use for a Bowser tender ? and such X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1e459043fc6749ea9a3f3a310ab82d65 Hi All.... Hmmm ok i'll add this to the joke chat... Since the B&O was partly owned by the PRR near the turn of the century and there were B&O 2-8-0's built to the PRR H-6 designs...is it possible that some B&O cabin cars were adopted from PRR designs...? Now to the Bowser tender... Ok a lot of us have had and seen the old tender that Bowser (and Penn Line before them) have used on the H-9 and E-6 kits...And over the years we all have pretty much come to the conclusion that this tender is of no use to most of us. But while studying some pictures of both the I-1s with their original tenders and the Bowser tender i wonder that if you added the upper steel coal board as it is on the original I-1s types if this tender could be adapted as a I-1s original type tender. Something to think about. Also...while researching for B-6sb numbers...I noticed something odd about the oil fired B-6sb No. 5267. In Vol.28 No. 1 of the Keystone there is mention of it inside the from cover which says that it was dropped from equipment records in 1947. Then in Vol.31 No. 4 in the "Last Gasp" article about the last engine to operate (No. 5244) it lists the engines that were leased to Union Transportation and in 1953 and 1954 it lists No. 5267 the oil fired engine. Is this article wrong? if so..where was it between 1947 and 1953? inquiring minds want to know. Does dropped from records (in Vol.28 No.1)mean from the Maryland Div. records...or all PRR equipment records? Anyone know? Have fun... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54s in HO From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e9b93e811bc2fb4412ae90a113c3d58d On 11/2/99 4:43 PM, Andy Miller at (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Have you folks noticed the small classified ad in MR for HO resin MP-54 > kits!! > The company has a web site at www.bcity.com/ewchase. And there's another player coming on the market in a few weeks! ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:15:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] What Do YOU Want At The 2000 Convention From: "Eugene Nowlan" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 833f5e216ab37d5f1c2f0c6bd151a98f Operating sessions on one or more layouts would seem to me to be appropriate with special emphasis on new operators. -- Gene Nowlan Corning, NY USA ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] What Do YOU Want At The 2000 Convention >Date: Tue, Nov 2, 1999, 12:14 PM > > In a week and a half, I will be attending a planning session for the next > PRRT&HS Convention, to be held in Camp Hill, Pa., May 4-6, 2000. > > With any criticisms of prior conventions aside, what types of > seminars/events would you like to see? > > For those who know the area, suggestions for tours are also welcome. > > Displays of modular layouts (mostly N) are already in the works, and I am > looking into a private open house at the Keystone Model Railroad Historical > Society (http://kmrhs.pennsyrr.com) in nearby Mechanicsburg. Their HO layout > requires 15 minutes for a train to get all the way around! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:21:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ...2000 Convention Lunch w/Officers From: "Eugene Nowlan" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7d108ac7e4a9f0f9113f73ffc73a55a4 Breakfast and/or lunch at tables of 4-8 with one officer per table would be a good way to become acquainted (break the ice) with our officers. Maybe pad the price to cover their meal. -- Gene Nowlan Corning, NY USA ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] What Do YOU Want At The 2000 Convention >Date: Tue, Nov 2, 1999, 12:14 PM > > In a week and a half, I will be attending a planning session for the next > PRRT&HS Convention, to be held in Camp Hill, Pa., May 4-6, 2000. > > With any criticisms of prior conventions aside, what types of > seminars/events would you like to see? > > For those who know the area, suggestions for tours are also welcome. > > Displays of modular layouts (mostly N) are already in the works, and I am > looking into a private open house at the Keystone Model Railroad Historical > Society (http://kmrhs.pennsyrr.com) in nearby Mechanicsburg. Their HO layout > requires 15 minutes for a train to get all the way around! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 09:25:30 -0600 From: "Dr. George Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Triumph II X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c74e14c16840c87602b8dae884a03b40 Hi, all, Just got my copy of TRIUMPH II by David Messer over the weekend and have not had time to digest it much more than look through the photos. At that level alone, it is pretty good. Sadly, the experience was spoiled by reading the final section by Roberts. To paraphrase a famous ad, "How do you spell EGO? R-O-B-E-R-T-S" Now that I've said it, I want to raise a deeper issue. It appears likely that the succeeding volumes of the TRIUMPH series will eventually appear and IMHO may just end up being (for better or worse) the only book-length treatments of the PRR of this sort that we will all live to see. In other words, these are likely to become the standard works. Now I (like many on this list) happen to have a few small details about the PRR (in my case, the Middle Division) which may prove useful to pass on the publisher for future TRIUMPHS, the object being to make these (possibly difinitive) works more complete and accurate. To this end, I have actually been in contact with the person working on the Middle Div book. But I was stopped cold by seeing once again evidence of Roberts' approach to editing and his astonishing commentary at the end of the book. I am frankly not sure I wish to be associated (even if only in a very small way) with this type of publication. I thought that the reaction to TRIUMPH I might temper Mr. Roberts but such appears not to have happened. What do you say, folks? Should we all help make the TRIUMPH series even better and overlook Mr. Roberts? Or should we boycott this publisher and wait (possibly a long time) to contribute to a more mature and professional approach to the PRR's history? While you're pondering this I will be buying a new flame-retardent outfit to wear. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:02:13 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7cfae5ffda8507f93af95bf88e43530d Dr. George Pierson wrote: > It appears > likely that the succeeding volumes of the TRIUMPH series will eventually > appear and IMHO may just end up being (for better or worse) the only > book-length treatments of the PRR of this sort that we will all live to > see. In other words, these are likely to become the standard works. Dear George, NO, NO, NO, NO, please NO. First, there is always more to discover; more scholarship to do. Second, the Pennsylvania cries out for a more coherent and inclusive interpretive overview, especially in view of the present standard's (B&K) lack of depth and analysis. And lastly, we simply cannot let a B&O guy have the last say. So, research and write on fellow railroad enthusiasts. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:16:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2fd79968e60d34566d67ef33f9e10efb Hi Guys, Is anyone familiar with a HO Scale PRR Interlocking Tower by Quality Craft? If so, could you provide any particulars concerning authenticity, difficulty in building, availability and price. I've searched around for one but, can't find one listed anywhere. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 14:31:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 640102b77693e10941ada03da700041a On 11/3/99 2:16 PM, Eichhorn@aol.com (Eichhorn@aol.com) wrote: > Is anyone familiar with a HO Scale PRR Interlocking Tower by Quality Craft? > If so, could you provide any particulars concerning authenticity, difficulty > in building, availability and price. I've searched around for one but, can't > find one listed anywhere. > Any help would be greatly appreciated. I could be wrong, but it sounds suspiciously like you saw said item for sale on eBay! To the balance of the list: Wasn't Quality Craft the predecessor to Gloor Craft...and wasn't this modeled after JACKS tower at Spruce Creek? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:38:02 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8172d68fa06308081db548a37dd55499 George; The tower is based on the Jack's tower at Jack's Narrows, Pa. I have not checked the exact dimensions of the tower but it does look like the prototype. I believe that it has a central "bay window" that sticks out the front side of the tower. I think that I have seen other PRR towers of similar design and layout. Does anybody know if the Jacks tower is unique or if it was based on a standard design and was using at other locations? I have an unbuilt model and I am planning in building it someday. I have seen them on Ebay occassionally so I would suggest to keep looking there, onw will eventually show up. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Eichhorn@aol.com [mailto:Eichhorn@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 2:17 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale Hi Guys, Is anyone familiar with a HO Scale PRR Interlocking Tower by Quality Craft? If so, could you provide any particulars concerning authenticity, difficulty in building, availability and price. I've searched around for one but, can't find one listed anywhere. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 14:58:04 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8992dc81ec351975014db586ed1b7ea8 Jerry Britton wrote: > To the balance of the list: Wasn't Quality Craft the predecessor to Gloor > Craft...and wasn't this modeled after JACKS tower at Spruce Creek? Greetings to Jerry and the list: It was modeled after Jacks tower at Mount Union, Pa. Spruce tower, at Spruce Creek, was about half the size of Jacks. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@prodigy.net 1 John 5:11-12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 15:09:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e9a83226cba4d0a54bce97aeabfce037 On 11/3/99 2:58 PM, Dan Cupper (Cupper@prodigy.net) wrote: > Jerry Britton wrote: > >> To the balance of the list: Wasn't Quality Craft the predecessor to Gloor >> Craft...and wasn't this modeled after JACKS tower at Spruce Creek? > > Greetings to Jerry and the list: > > It was modeled after Jacks tower at Mount Union, Pa. Spruce tower, at > Spruce Creek, was about half the size of Jacks. Okay, so I need to put my mind in gear before my fingers. I knew what I meant...JACKS tower is at Jacks Narrows (basically Mount Union), of course! (Had the tower ID right!) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:18:30 EST Subject: [PRR] USRA 2-8-8-2 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 376b790ae8298782c91ee22ed0d2c021 Folks, MTH has issued a RailKing version of a USRA designed 2-8-8-2 for the PRR. This sparked my curiosity about the prototype. My questions are: 1. Was this really used by the PRR? If so, for how long? When? 2. How many were used and where would they have been found? 3. What type of freight did it primarily haul? Thanks, George Pandelios Modeling the PRR around Weirton, WV between 1948-1957. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:27:53 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e3e5e65ad44223681e6f2da62a747809 Listers, The Quality Craft Tower is now made by Gloor Craft. It is pretty easy to get. The Strasburg Train Shop usually has 4 or 5 in stock. It is a model of Jacks Tower and is pretty easy to build. It was reviewed in the Keystone along time ago. I believe the only error was that the real tower's chimmney goes up the back wall and th model tower's mounts on the roof. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:21:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 386ad2043f189a43993aff3a2b7b3936 Hi again guys, Many thanks to all who responded to my question. Now, that I know what I am really looking for, I believe that I have found a few sources. Thanks again, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:26:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] RE: (PRR) Quality Craft Tower X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 648cf17418d78376a8a06dabfef1e35c George, List, I have built several of these towers for future use on the layout. The first one was built from their instructions. Yes the chimmney is in the wrong location. If you have built wood kits before this uses the same technques. The second kit I built is a little different. Instead of having two identical towers in my collection, I modified this one. I substituted the first floor with a brick one. It looks completely different now. I have a picture of it at this url. http://www.geocities.com/k4-5389/tower.JPG Bad photo but you can see the difference if you are familiar with the way the orginial kit builds. I did replace the chimmney with a styrene chimmeny that runs up the back. I Still have to finish a little more detail on the whole thing. It kinda looks like Huntington Tower but only smaller. Overall it captures a PRR look...Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:50:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Quality Craft's PRR Interlocking Tower in HO Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 820602b99a5d95ba1c784c3d0df29703 Jerry. You mean JACKS tower at Mt. Union. SPRUCE at Spruce Creek. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:18:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph II X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 69626ff8aba17335a968a1260811ca5f George, Just what is that Roberts says this time? I haven't seen this book and am waiting for the Philley Terminal volume basiclly. But I've seen previous commentary on Roberts earlier work and understand he's not as much of a Pennsy fan as some others I've met. Being a B&O fan is much in his favor, but he seems to take the "I-love-redheads-so-I-hate-blondes" stance. Never could understand that, seeing as how they're both great railroads. What gives? regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 17:52:55 EST Subject: [PRR] "O" Scalers and "O" Guagers: Xmas is comming! X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 11002065fac8e29ba00a0c3e8bba1603 The new "O-27" three rail Pennsy H-10 starter set from MTH is a thing of beauty - Though NOT scale it has a decent, diecast and HEAVY H-10 Consolidation with lights, smoke, electronic sound, (air pump hissing steam and chuffing, keyed to speed) bell, whistle a "proto coupler" that will uncouple anywhere on the layout and an N-5 Porthole Caboose. The two freight cars are "wrong" for PRR - an offset side hopper and a generic box car with "too new" lettering, but hey, this is a great 3 rail starter set, with a circle of MTH O-31 track and a power pack, lighted lock-on etc. Worth a trip to your Lionel Dealer to see, and if you have kids, to buy for $280 "MSRP" or less. While you're there check out the MTH Rail King Crane: it IS a scale piece, at under $ 50.00, (none lettered PRR - yet) the Jordan Spreader, the wedge snowplow - and even the powered and lighted Rotary (yes I know, Pennsy never had them) BE SURE TO SEE the "Premier" (scale) N-8, with antennas, wire handrails and even a "little guy" in the cupola. Both Lionel and MTH are cataloging a scale PRR E-6s Atlantic: Lionel also has a K-4. Some Dealers may even have the MTH O-27 PRR Doodlebug. Buy 'em for your kids - or Grandkids - and hide 'em, hope they leave 'em behind when they grow up ! Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] "O" Scalers and "O" Guagers: Xmas is comming! Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:22:14 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f2d5e4734ab4d173423f8cc1225fef0a What about the MTH Premier Centipedes? Will these arrive before Christmas? I'm an HO-scaler, and know very little about O, but I have a few questions. My Uncle is an O collector/operator. Most of his stuff is from the 40's and 50's, but he also has some modern stuff. Anyway, I'm thinking of getting him a loco for Christmas. The Centipedes may be a bit steep, but the Chicago CTA 4 car subway set looks good. Now for my questions. The transformer my Uncle uses is also 50's vintage. Will MTH locos equipped with Protosmoke and/or Proto-Sound work with this type of controller? What about proto-coupler? Thanks, Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Eichhorn@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 19:46:08 EST Subject: [PRR] New Life-Like 2-8-8-2 Photos and Specs. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 33b89582f4c3b1e421dc9f87002f45b1 Hi Guys, Take a look at the Life-Like Products Home Page. New 2-8-8-2 photos and specs. http://www.lifelikeproducts.com/ Regards, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:03:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] ICC Investigation reports? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f22e72a017198097526d0439fd2b9e73 List, Is there anywhere on the net where you can do research on past railroad accidents? I have a investigation report number for an accident that happened on the PRR in Burgettstown, Pa in Feb. 1949. There was an article in the Keystone Spring 1994? issue that covers this wreck. It involved an M1 caboose hop and a mail train powered by 2 E-7s. I would like too see if there is more info about it in the files of the ICC. Is there such a place on the web to find this info....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:21:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] L&N cars painted PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 71ee8c58bdbfea832b969327374f0fea Rick and All, In the newly published book from MORNING SUN "Trackside with Charles Spear" by my friend Ed Derouin, we found two photos of the L&N 10-6 sleeper in Chicago, IL in both the PRR paint and blue paint. They were shot in the early sixties. Great book! Greg Martin RickTipton@aol.com writes: << "L&N cars BARREN RIVER, GREEN RIVER, and KENTUCKY RIVER arrived in the latter half of 1949 and matched the Pennsy's Tuscan red RAPIDS-series sleepers in color and configuration. They also shared car lines with them on hte routes fromNew York to L&N points. Color pictures of any of the three RIVER cars in Tuscan are particularly rare." >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] St. Louis Union Station in 1999 Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:41:01 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6043411b708b3b47a37cc9d55e458abd Any of you gents that have not been to St. Louis, you really need to check out the renovation that's been done to St. Louis Union Station. It is truly amazing. A most impressive piece of work. The headhouse contains part of the Hyatt Regency hotel, including reception desk and restaurant. The main waiting room with its barrel-vault ceiling contains an elevated section with seating where one may enjoy a drink or two with friends. Below, the concourse (they call it the "midway") contains shops of every ilk. Part of the headhouse is conference rooms and the like, part is hotel rooms (the very expensive ones). But the most amazing thing is the train shed. The entire thing remains intact, all 42 tracks' (if memory serves) width. About half its width is taken up by the remainder of the Hyatt, where a little sign on the door informs you of the $320 maximum charge per room. (THe "business rate" for our conference was a mere $115 single.) The other half of the width is more of the mall, which is 2 levels almost all the way, with a 3rd level at the far end. Then one exits the mall and discovers that the train shed is only half covered, half open. AND ... one discovers that one has traversed only 1/3 to 1/2 its length!! THe remainder half-covers a 1-acre artificial lake, a seafood joint "on the lake", and a parking lot. At the end of the trainshed are 2 double signal bridges, fully intact, though with the signals having been replaced by individual letter-signs spelling out S T L O U I S U N I O N S T A T I O N, and lights to illuminate the letters at night. As if this were not enough, some 4 or 5 additional signal bridges remain, scattered in the parking lots and elsewhere. REading Terminal was/is big, and Broad St. Stn. was big. But those are to SLUS as Ajax was to Achilles. There is no comparison. And to think that Chicago could have had an even larger one, had an all-encompassing union station ever been built there. The tower that controlled the entrance still stands, though it is fully gutted. It once housed a 304-lever US&S machine, according to the historical narrative markers (16 or 18 of them) in the station/mall. In other Pennsy Lines Way Way West: WILLOWS tower is still standing and operational, though the plant has been simplified from 1986, the last I was there. THe area is no better, tho. THe main line across Illinois is reasonably busy, still single track with passing sidings. THere is even one lap siding! There is rumor that the Effigham station (IC crossing) may come down. Otherwise, not an awful lot to report. I saw the location where the NYC was cut over to the PRR in Terre Haute: a much sharper curve than I would have anticipated. I'm surprised another, better location could not have been found, e.g., NYC to PRR T.H.--Logansport line, then PRR through town. HALEY (not a PRR tower) has been moved for preservation, and that interlocking (C&EI, NYC) is now completely different. ON my outbound leg, I followed the Fort Wayne briefly. There appear to have been no changes since the NS takeover of part of that line in the early part of this decade. Saw more NS trains on it than CSX trains: is this merely an indication of NS congestion, or of something different? WIth CSX having gotten the Fort Wayne, one would have thought that NS would have double-tracked the parallel NKP, to gain the benefit they gained by buying that portion of the Fort Wayne, but the former has not (yet) happened. At Hobart, where NKP veers away from PRR, and where NS had cut the Ft.W. and turned it west into NKP, this action has been undone. The Goshen Branch still has PRR signals on it. Is this the only nonPRR nonLIRR line to have had position lights installed? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 13:53:52 -0500 From: jpbtrans Subject: [PRR] Peoria, Ill. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1753d8c33147ad5dba7ff5122894cb75 Hello all, I have a question maybe someone can help me with. Did the PRR ever go to Peoria, either on their own track or by trackage rights? If they did, where did their track branch from the St. Louis main, or if by TR where did the rights start. city, tower, junction names? Thank you for your help. Jon Anderson (jpb trans@gateway.net) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:42:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 92ae2e92bcda541a8263f52281a8bd5b List, Not being much of a diesel modeler this question goes out to those who are. Did either of the 2 PRR SD-7's or any of the 25 PRR SD-9's have the antenna system applied? I can't seem to come up with many pictures of these locos and the ones I can find do not have antenna.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:23:51 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 67be9cb81907c8fddfe31ca22895c1ee -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 3:22 PM To: 'mittner@webtv.net' Subject: RE: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day Gary: I believe that the SD-7's were not delivered with trainphone antennas. I also do not think that they were ever equipped with them after delivery. The SD-9's are a different story. From what I can tell, these too were not delivered with trainphone antennas. However, some were equipped with the antennas by the PRR sometime after delivery. Which SD-9's were involved and the time frame they had the inductive antennas are the $64,000 questions. I know of one photo (in the 1997-98 PRRT&HS book on Conway Yard/Pittsburgh area) that shows #7614 (I think) with them. I posted this same question on the list almost a year ago but I did not get any leads. Hopefully someone has dug up some new info. since then. Hope this helps! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:43 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day List, Not being much of a diesel modeler this question goes out to those who are. Did either of the 2 PRR SD-7's or any of the 25 PRR SD-9's have the antenna system applied? I can't seem to come up with many pictures of these locos and the ones I can find do not have antenna.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:46:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f604c8e02e89c73964b1b79687c071ec In a message dated 11/04/1999 2:52:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > > Not being much of a diesel modeler this question goes out to those > who are. Did either of the 2 PRR SD-7's or any of the 25 PRR SD-9's have > the antenna system applied? I can't seem to come up with many pictures > of these locos and the ones I can find do not have antenna.....Gary > None of these were equipped with induction trainphones. The 2 SD-7 were restricted to Madison Hill, INdiana -- no train phone territory. All of the SD-9 were hump control equipped and intended for hump service and did not have train phones nor dynamic brakes. The SD-7 were dynamice brake equipped. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 17:51:00 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria, Ill. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 475aa3c12b50add1bd8b39623f913c66 This is so easy, the exit from the st. Louis div. was Farrington, Il. not far from the In-Il state line. PRR reached Peoria by way of Paris, Arcola, Decatur, Atlanta, to Farmdale Jct.(NKP) then P&PU across the river to Peoria. Farrington sits 7.9 miles west of Terre Haute Union Station , or what was. A depot still exists at Oakland, but was moved just off the railroad property. The whole thing was gone by mid 80's , was ran for a short time from Paris as Prarie Central but went belly up. It was ran as the Wabash Valley Railroad by MKO. The bridges still exist across the Embaras river. For a long time Vigo tower(Terre Haute) handled the manual block for the Peoria branch then was transfered to Preston tower(Terre Haute) then Midland at Paris. I have the register book for when it handled by Preston. I can give you more info in a week, I got to do minutes for now. jpbtrans wrote: > Hello all, > > I have a question maybe someone can help me with. Did the PRR ever go to > Peoria, either on their own track or by trackage rights? If they did, > where did their track branch from the St. Louis main, or if by TR where > did the rights start. city, tower, junction names? Thank you for > your help. > > Jon Anderson (jpb trans@gateway.net) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Train phones. Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:36:53 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 414ca58f9570b934504284dbd5be1ae1 I am pretty sure that after a certain date, about the time of the GP-9 deliveries, PRR decided to forgo any further purchase of inductive train phone equipment from Union Switch and Swindle. However, you will note that the GP-30s, U-25bs and indeed the fabled 2415 even had an antenna! That is because they yanked the equipment off of trade-in locomotives and when they yanked the Centipedes there was more than enough antennae to go around. Pennsy dabbled into a bunch of different radio systems, mostly in yards like Camden and Chicago but because the radios didn't work in tunnels, they were against purchasing radios for road service. Finally when the GP-35s were delivered, the other shoe dropped and they made the plunge into radio equipment. -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted To: 'PRR-Talk' Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 3:34 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Andrews, Ted >Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 3:22 PM >To: 'mittner@webtv.net' >Subject: RE: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day > > >Gary: > >I believe that the SD-7's were not delivered with trainphone antennas. I >also do not think that they were ever equipped with them after delivery. > >The SD-9's are a different story. From what I can tell, these too were not >delivered with trainphone antennas. However, some were equipped with the >antennas by the PRR sometime after delivery. Which SD-9's were involved and >the time frame they had the inductive antennas are the $64,000 questions. I >know of one photo (in the 1997-98 PRRT&HS book on Conway Yard/Pittsburgh >area) that shows #7614 (I think) with them. > >I posted this same question on the list almost a year ago but I did not get >any leads. Hopefully someone has dug up some new info. since then. > >Hope this helps! > > >Ted Andrews >Carmel, Indiana >-----Original Message----- >From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] >Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:43 PM >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day > > >List, > > Not being much of a diesel modeler this question goes out to those >who are. Did either of the 2 PRR SD-7's or any of the 25 PRR SD-9's have >the antenna system applied? I can't seem to come up with many pictures >of these locos and the ones I can find do not have antenna.....Gary > > > > >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:39:17 -0700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a64c88a4a8b3fd6841d3c16c0e2a10fe >The SD-7 were dynamice brake equipped. Geeze...these I GOTTA see! ;-) Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:27:54 EST Subject: [PRR] O Gauge N-8, K-4s, and Slag Cars! X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fbbdb0f5f08404d06c486286721617d0 Hi Folks, Dick Ross from Cleveland wrote: > BE SURE TO SEE the "Premier" (scale) N-8, with antennas, wire handrails >and even a "little guy" in the cupola. Both Lionel and MTH are cataloging a >scale PRR E-6s Atlantic: Lionel also has a K-4. Some Dealers may even have >the MTH O-27 PRR Doodlebug. Dick's right! The N-8 is a beauty. Mine arrived last Friday. The "little guy" in the cupola is drinking a cup of coffee! I saw Lionel's production prototype K-4s (#3750) running at the TCA Show in York last month. It's a beauty, too. Lionel, after decades of inability or disinterest in PRR steam ("Gee, let's release yet ANOTHER NYC Hudson"), has finally put together a decent looking Pennsy steam locomotive. Also saw MTH's Vol. 1 2000 catalog and they are offering a Slag car set (3 cars)! This is the first time I have ever seen this car commercially offered in O. Walthers, I believe, has an HO version. As a child in Weirton, I remember trains of 10-20 slag cars being moved by Alco S-2s. Cheers, George Pandelios Modeling the PRR in O around Weirton, WV from 1948-1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:28:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Train phones. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f034a3d63761db749b3276dbcaee0b83 In a message dated 11/4/1999 6:05:22 PM Central Standard Time, herzog1@gate.net writes: << However, you will note that the GP-30s, U-25bs and indeed the fabled 2415 even had an antenna! That is because they yanked the equipment off of trade-in locomotives and when they yanked the Centipedes there was more than enough antennae to go around. >> I wonder who "they" is. I believe, but cannot prove, that most Pennsy locos had antennas installed at the manufacturer. Don't know about trade-ins. I saw the Centipedes on the trade-in track in LaGrange Park, Illinois, on the Indiana Harbor Belt for transfer to McCook(?) and EMD, but naturally did not take a picture and was at a low angle and don't remember antennas one way or the other. I asked an EMD employee who sells builders photos, including Pennsy, whether they installed the antennas but he could not remember. Photos he had were of new E's in the Harrisburg enginehouse, so that is inconclusive. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:43:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c0016f096f26bb2db55e7c1cb161fede In a message dated 99-11-04 17:55:55 EST, you write: << > Not being much of a diesel modeler this question goes out to those > who are. Did either of the 2 PRR SD-7's or any of the 25 PRR SD-9's have > the antenna system applied? I can't seem to come up with many pictures > of these locos and the ones I can find do not have antenna.....Gary > None of these were equipped with induction trainphones. The 2 SD-7 were restricted to Madison Hill, INdiana -- no train phone territory. All of the SD-9 were hump control equipped and intended for hump service and did not have train phones nor dynamic brakes. The SD-7 were dynamice brake equipped. >> All of the SD-9 units on the PRR were equipted with Dynamic brakes.Most of these units were used in transfer or hump service displacing I-1's. Some were equipped with trainphone and the ones in hump service had an extra equiptment box on the engineer's side walkway by the long hood end. The units equipped for hump service also had three radio disc receivers one on the short hood end and two on the sides of the long hood towards the nose one of which I believe was for a seperate yard channel. 7603 and 7614 are shown with trainphones in some PRR publications. The two SD-7 units were not equipped with trainphones but did have dynamic brakes. Why would the PRR assign non dynamic equipped units to the Madison hill line with a 5.89% grade ??? Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jerry@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Interesting item on eBay web site item#194028903: PRR Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:09:26 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cb944ee8ea9bc13f2149d784814a9b88 I saw this item for sale at eBay, the world's largest personal trading community, and thought that you might be interested. These are hard to come by!!! Title of item: PRR Interlocking station tower orders 1956 Seller: pwkrail@aol.com Starts: 11/04/99, 08:37:15 PST Ends: 11/11/99, 08:37:15 PST Price: Currently $4.50 To bid on the item, go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=194028903 Item Description: This hand written orders sheet measures approx. 12x24 and is filled (both sides)with towermans orders of the day at Penn Interlocking, Philadelphia terminal division July 31, 1956. Still has steam locos numbers written on it and also the Aero train that went thru 8:46. Signalmen and leverman sign in at top of page. I didn't count, but at least 75 or more transactions on both sides. Order sheet is in very good to excellent and legible condition, and can not be seen as good on scanned photo below. This will have to be sent rolled in a tube to prevent damage. Winner pays shipping 3.55 priority mail with confirmation check or m.o. US Visit eBay, the world's largest Personal Trading Community at http://www.ebay.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:15:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 68ea1a6adbd6088fdba7f4dc2c9d4dec In a message dated 11/04/1999 22:48:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, KEMACPRR@aol.com writes: << All of the SD-9 units on the PRR were equipted with Dynamic brakes.Most of these units were used in transfer or hump service displacing I-1's. Some were equipped with trainphone and the ones in hump service had an extra equiptment box on the engineer's side walkway by the long hood end. The units equipped for hump service also had three radio disc receivers one on the short hood end and two on the sides of the long hood towards the nose one of which I believe was for a seperate yard channel. 7603 and 7614 are shown with trainphones in some PRR publications. The two SD-7 units were not equipped with trainphones but did have dynamic brakes. Why would the PRR assign non dynamic equipped units to the Madison hill line with a 5.89% grade ??? >> Ken and all: My original message stated that the SD-7s were dynamic brake equipped. The information on the SD-9s is from Bill Volkmer's PRR Diesel roster with notes in Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 1. BIll did not indicate any dynamic brakes or train phones on the SD-9s only the hump controls. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:43:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 711f41ab0d5c569ea729d2f4b76cbd4f All of the SD9s and both SD7s had dynamic brakes. These units lasted into the Conrail era and the SD7s were the first to go as these were the oldest and the SD9s lingered on awhile longer until Conrail began its purge of all 567 engined road size power starting with the F7s, E units and finishing up with the last of the GP9 fleet. Since these units were used in hump yards, it would follow that all of them would have the hump control equipment and most would not have the trainphone system as there was no need for it in the yards or on transfer runs. At least that is how I see it. I hope this helps. Jim Mancuso ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: Re: [PRR] Train phone antenna. Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:56:22 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 83f6002e816f977f8f7c75804e38e181 The antennae, the speed recorders, the trucks, and the couplers were salvaged off the trade-in locomotives and if the trucks were EMD or Alco, were put under the new unit. The antennae were also installed by the builder. I vividly remember when the Alco DL-640s were delivered to Enola. We had to park them out back of the diesel shop for about two weeks before they went into service. WHY you ask. Well, the speed recorders that were in the PAs that went to Schnectady in trade were only CARCASSES! No guts inside them because the PAs had been out of service so long they had been robbed blind. SO Alco shipped the new units with just the box minus the speed recorder guts. Pennsy had to scramble around and find some more set-aside units to rob. So Peter DID pay Paul. Aren't you glad you asked? Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com To: Prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Train phones. >In a message dated 11/4/1999 6:05:22 PM Central Standard Time, >herzog1@gate.net writes: > ><< However, you will note that > the GP-30s, U-25bs and indeed the fabled 2415 even had an antenna! That is > because they yanked the equipment off of trade-in locomotives and when they > yanked the Centipedes there was more than enough antennae to go around. > >> > >I wonder who "they" is. I believe, but cannot prove, that most Pennsy locos >had antennas installed at the manufacturer. Don't know about trade-ins. I >saw the Centipedes on the trade-in track in LaGrange Park, Illinois, on the >Indiana Harbor Belt for transfer to McCook(?) and EMD, but naturally did not >take a picture and was at a low angle and don't remember antennas one way or >the other. >I asked an EMD employee who sells builders photos, including Pennsy, whether >they installed the antennas but he could not remember. Photos he had were of >new E's in the Harrisburg enginehouse, so that is inconclusive. > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 14:24:18 -0500 From: jpbtrans Subject: [PRR] Peoria X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 419664c3a7a89a1d90ed45692e9666e5 Thank you for your help yesterday with my Peoria question. But wouldn't you know, I've got another. What, on a normal day, would the traffic be on this line? Would there have been any passenger traffic on it? Any other place that I should look for info? Thank you again for the help. Jon Anderson (jpb trans@gateway.net) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DocMorrow@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:57:57 EST Subject: [PRR] engine number X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fc43cbdb0642d41100e4be78b7ff79ab Hi group, Dose anyone know if the PRR had an engine number 713, if so, what kind? I would like to find out.It is my house number,and I would like to put a KEYSTONE out front as my house no. THANKS,Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Josh Trower" Subject: Re: [PRR] O Gauge N-8, K-4s, and Slag Cars! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 15:33:06 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b368f7e12a0818a376ecaaebbb739176 How much is the Lionel K4? We haven't gotten our catalog yet(but do have the MTH ones). The Railking K4 was 400 bucks(best 400 dollars you could ever spend). Does the Lionel version feature a "none slatted" pilot? -Josh >From: GPandelios@aol.com >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] O Gauge N-8, K-4s, and Slag Cars! >Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 22:27:54 EST > >Hi Folks, > >Dick Ross from Cleveland wrote: > > > BE SURE TO SEE the "Premier" (scale) N-8, with antennas, wire >handrails > >and even a "little guy" in the cupola. Both Lionel and MTH are cataloging >a > >scale PRR E-6s Atlantic: Lionel also has a K-4. Some Dealers may even >have > >the MTH O-27 PRR Doodlebug. > >Dick's right! The N-8 is a beauty. Mine arrived last Friday. The "little >guy" in the cupola is drinking a cup of coffee! > >I saw Lionel's production prototype K-4s (#3750) running at the TCA Show in >York last month. It's a beauty, too. Lionel, after decades of inability >or >disinterest in PRR steam ("Gee, let's release yet ANOTHER NYC Hudson"), >has >finally put together a decent looking Pennsy steam locomotive. > >Also saw MTH's Vol. 1 2000 catalog and they are offering a Slag car set (3 >cars)! This is the first time I have ever seen this car commercially >offered >in O. Walthers, I believe, has an HO version. As a child in Weirton, I >remember trains of 10-20 slag cars being moved by Alco S-2s. > >Cheers, > >George Pandelios > >Modeling the PRR in O around Weirton, WV from 1948-1957 > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:20:46 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: aa87590778a2e3ca55726b389cfd50d0 Gary, Though I'm also treading on thin ice when it comes to diesels (except for the EP20/EMD E7), I don't think any of PRR's early SDs had antenna systems. The SD7s were purchased for special service, not general main line use. The SD9s were purchased for yard work at big hump yards, and not general main line use. PRR's main line power (F3s, F7s, GP7s, GP9s to stick with EMDs) got the antenna systems, and management probably decided to take the cheap route and not equip the special service engines with a system they'd rarely, if ever, use. Now, back to my E6s. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > Not being much of a diesel modeler this question goes out to those > who are. Did either of the 2 PRR SD-7's or any of the 25 PRR SD-9's have > the antenna system applied? I can't seem to come up with many pictures > of these locos and the ones I can find do not have antenna.....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:45:32 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Sunshine Models X31F X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bd0b63775180eeb3bdbc43c8dbc75e14 Hello list, I received my first Sunshine Models kit in the mail yesterday. As I've built only a few Westerfield kits and one other manufacturer's kit until now, I was curious how Sunshine's kit compared to the Westerfield. In short, they're both excellent. Flash on my model was very manageable; most of it just broke off, and what little didn't cleaned up fast with a knife and sandpaper. My edges haven't needed much work with the file; they were pretty true to start with. So far, I've got the sides and ends assembled, with the roof and floor to come next. Like the Westerfield kits, the wire grab irons and ancillary parts to complete the model are all in the box, except for trucks and couplers. My kit has injection molded brake gear, unlike the kit's instructions which show resin. Perhaps this is a mid-run improvement. Anyway, Sunshine is closing out this model (the mold must have reached the end of its life). I think I want to get one of their X37s or a G26 next. If you're looking for resin kits, to learn on, this may be the way to go. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:52:46 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Repowering a Bowser G5s X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4feb3923219ce60bb81dfbd6b65fe26f Hello list, A while back, I posed a question to the list about repowering a Bowser G5s with an Alco Products repower kit for the Bowser E6s. I have figured out that this isn't possible with the G5s as it currently stands, but the problem is fixable. Bowser's G5s uses a 29 to 1 gear ratio, unlike the K4s and E6s, which use a 32 to 1 ratio. The main axle gears are different, as are the worm gears. What I plan to do, since I have a Sensipress and Quarterer, is to change the G5s' main axle gear to the E6s main axle gear so I can drop in the E6s repower kit. I will post on this subject as my project advances and parts arrive (orders for the repower kit and the gear were sent a week ago, and I have many other projects to occupy me until they arrive). One word of warning to those of you who haven't already used the Puller and Sensipress to dissassemble and reassemble Bowser drivers: Just accept the factory quartering. I scratch a mark onto the tire and axle that I'm dissassembling so I can put the driver set back together correctly. Once, I tried to use the Quarterer to set things up, and I failed miserably. The striations that Bowser makes on their driver axles are deep and large; ignore them at your peril. In my experience, Bowser's quartering is usually pretty good. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:15:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunshine Models X31F X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 41fe97530a81811d83f57af241cc3a61 Doug, I have built both Westerfield and Sunshine kits and they both are about the same. You use the same techniques for both. I bought my X31f kit at a past Pennsy Convention and they were selling the correct Pennsy trucks to go with these cars. Theyshuld still be available. A photo of my X31f is located here. http://www.geocities.com/k4-5389/x31f.jpg I have also built Sunshines X29 (MS) and a G class Gondola and these also build into brass quality cars. Bowser is about to release this same X31f Turtle Back car soon, however I don't believe it will be as nice these resin casted models....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 18:38:48 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 03ba3d6115467b945dee4092e64f5a91 In the employee timetables are a few pages dealing with arranged freight service giving assigned symbols for trains of different routes and directions. These are not scheduled trains but used for agency work. By this time most trains were ran as extras. Here 's what I have for Southwestern Div. T.T. no. 7 October 29, 1961: Northbound assigned Direction is Farrington to Farmdale Jct. SW-29: Leave Decatur at 6:00PM to Peoria, arrive at 11:45PM Daily except Sat & Sun. SL-11: Leave Terre Haute at 8:30 AM arrive at Decatur at 6PM Mon, Wed, Fri SW-31: Leave Indpls Hawthorne Yd at 11AM arrive Terre Haute at2pm, arrive Decatur 9:30PM Daily Southbound Direction: SW-28: Leave Peoria at 11:45PM Arrive Decatur at 5:30 AM Daily except Monday SL-12: Leave Decatur 9:30 AM arrive Terre Haute 7PM Tue, Thur, Sat. SW-30: Leave Decatur 5PM, arrive Terre Haute 10:30 Pm, leave Terre Haute 5:00am ,arrive at Davis Tower, Indpls 8pm Daily Steve Long, my interest: Vandalia Line and St. Louis Division jpbtrans wrote: > Thank you for your help yesterday with my Peoria question. But wouldn't > you know, I've got another. What, on a normal day, would the traffic be > on this line? Would there have been any passenger traffic on it? Any > other place that I should look for info? > Thank you again for the help. > > Jon Anderson (jpb trans@gateway.net) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 18:42:18 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] engine number X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9c211edb3480f26cf0298130af3897c3 Last Pennsy engine to use #713 was an A5s (0-4-0) that remained on the Pennsy roster until sometime in 1956. Frank Brua DocMorrow@aol.com wrote: > Hi group, Dose anyone know if the PRR had an engine number 713, if so, what > kind? I would like to find out.It is my house number,and I would like to put > a KEYSTONE out front as my house no. THANKS,Dave > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] engine number Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:29:29 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c30db1f0f9d264f0120b0e7db7280368 I found a photo of PRR #715, an 0-6-0. Can you move next door? Andy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of DocMorrow@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 1:58 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] engine number Hi group, Dose anyone know if the PRR had an engine number 713, if so, what kind? I would like to find out.It is my house number,and I would like to put a KEYSTONE out front as my house no. THANKS,Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:51:32 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] PRR electrics at MOT in StL X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 71d0c40e2a3e1346585deb59e7503d40 Howdy all, I happened down to the Museum of Transport here in St Louis today and thought I would pass along a report on things Pennsy. The GG-1 has been moved into the back shed next to the P5. At the same time, however, that area has been opened up so it is possible to get in there. It still isn't practical to do overall photos, but now we can get up close and personal with both motors. The Hudson & Manhattan tube car, an authentic Stillwell, is parked nearby (also under the shed). It is in very poor shape with heavy rust. However, unlike a great many later cars, those Stilwells were built like tanks. So it is still possible to get in there and do a LOT of rust removal and painting. One nice touch is that these are surrounded by eastern prototypes, mainly B&O, CN, NYC, LV, so that one can at least get the feel of what it must have been like in the glory time. The Aerotrain has been moved out into the open on the upper level. However, the cars are still not accessable. One car is buckled at one end - looks like someone tried coupling with a pile of rust and got a predictable result. The general area where it is sitting is a staging area for equipment being restored, so perhaps there is some hope here. Recent restorations at the Museum: the Milwaukee Bi-polar, the CN 4-6-2 and the ex- B&O / Alton "Abraham Lincoln" round end obs. This last is a beauty in almost cherry condition (they are still doing some work in the vestibule and small details). I am not sure what their plans are, but having cleared three big projects, I suspect something ambitious might be undertaken. There are still a lot of badly delapidated rust piles there, including some that will make you cry - such as the D&H varnish obs. But there are more and more restored units each time I go out there, so I think we may hope to eventually see most of it at least cleaned up and preserved. My best to all, Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:53:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 pics X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 41f3767c4b46caf98e725bcc756ea8d1 Larry, Gary and all, I made the Hobby show and that was the first question out of my mouth to Paul Lubeliner. It is the wrong size he knows it and claims it was a quick and dirty job to make a presentation at the show. He also told me that he would have his undecorated units ready for the shop before the end of December ... take it for what it is worth. I have known Paul personally since 1990 or perhaps before. I am sure Athearn is under tremendous pressure to get this product out. Ignore the paint, by it and paint it yourself. Greg Martin reynoldl@gte.net writes: << Hi Gary: I looked at the Athearn Genesis PRR F unit and was quite pleased to see the passenger type pilot and small F3 number boards. Is it me, or is the "PENNSYLVANIA" lettering too big? It just doesn't look right to me. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Subject: [PRR] Structure Drawings Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:11:19 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bf0acbc1eeca58c47ea31aac9931a330 I have been looking for a source of railroad structure drawings. I have an extensive collection of MR and RMC and have found a few drawings for stations, a water tank and a signal tower. Are their ex-railroad archieves or a museum that have the PRR drawings for their structures? Gene Deimling PRRH&TS #6418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 02:37:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Dumb ? of the day X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d06be3d85d160948c5cccaf27872cb7c Ken, Thank you, I have been digging my way through my Email I have collected since I got back from the National Model and Hobby Show and the Sunshine I attended in the Chicago area last week. You are write they did have both dynamics and some did have antenna mast. This kind of reminds me of the speculation that went on some time back with regard to the reason for having the screening on the nose of the BP-20's and the AFP-20's, when both regeared to dual service the larger traction motors required better ventilation. Research, research, research ... is the only way to formulate a valid statement. Greg Martin Ken McCorry writes: << All of the SD-9 units on the PRR were equipped with Dynamic brakes. Most of these units were used in transfer or hump service displacing I-1's. Some were equipped with trainphone and the ones in hump service had an extra equipment box on the engineer's side walkway by the long hood end. The units equipped for hump service also had three radio disc receivers one on the short hood end and two on the sides of the long hood towards the nose one of which I believe was for a separate yard channel. 7603 and 7614 are shown with trainphone in some PRR publications. The two SD7 units were not equipped with trainphones but did have dynamic brakes. Why would the PRR assign non dynamic equipped units to the Madison hill line with a 5.89% grade ??? Ken McCorry >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 08:26:48 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0f14824c5235df9d119b2c0eec7064cf jpbtrans wrote: > What, on a normal day, would the traffic be > on this line? Would there have been any passenger traffic on it? Jon and list: Steve Long has already posted excellent info about arranged freight services from a relatively recent SW Region ETT. You'll note it is not heavy. In fact, it appears from earlier ETT's dating back to the 1930s--using only the arranged freights as evidence--that the Peoria line was a fairly lightly used branch, especially west of Decatur. The fact is that it always was, even from the beginning. And traffic seems only to have grown lighter as time passed (the trend is steeply downward following WW2). The road west of Decatur was poorly located, lightly bridged and hilly. There were limited and expensive terminal facilities in Peoria, reached over the TP&W until the early 1930s, and over the LE&W line of the NKP thereafter. And except for some industrial traffic to and from Decatur, and for a brief time, some coal from the mine in Lovington, the bulk of branch traffic seems to have been agricultural in nature. However, that is only my interpretation. I would be keenly interested in hearing any additional and/or alternate views. Any old heads who worked the branch have comments on its operation? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:21:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Regearing vs. Remotoring of diesel locomotives X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 10f15d27178aa663e2d33ffa664f02ae In a message dated 11/6/99 2:46:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << This kind of reminds me of the speculation that went on some time back with regard to the reason for having the screening on the nose of the BP-20's and the AFP-20's, when both regeared to dual service the larger traction motors required better ventilation. >> Can we confirm this? Is this an issue of larger traction motors, or just a desire for more air intake? This statement brought me up short, because I thought regearing (for example to convert a passenger engine to freight service) was a matter of fitting a new pinion gear on the same traction motor's shaft and a new bull gear on the axle. The traction motor winds up operating in the same rpm range, but the locomotive provides lower speed/higher torque output at the rail. Since the traction motor is turning at similar speeds as it was before, the back emf and current flow should be similar, therefore traction motor heating is about the same. Thus (at least in theory), the loco wouldn't need bigger air intakes for the blowers that force-cool the traction motors. Another "red herring" here is that the BP-20 sharknose started out with a Westinghouse traction motor, didn't it? That said, they don't come any bigger, so did a larger changeout really exist? OTOH, an AFP-20 (Alco PA, right?) had the GE traction motor. I'm not sure about the PA's A-1-A truck, but in other Alco truck designs, there isn't room for bigger than the GE motor, so there shouldn't be a larger changeout here, either. Then again, I may have completely lost my mind. If that's true, I apologize in advance. One thing I'm sure of is that the Westinghouse traction motor, being larger and having more metal in it, took longer to overheat and thus was great for low speed lugging. The GE traction motor was smaller and slightly easier to overheat. And remember the EMD traction motors started out as GE's, so it's not surprising they're the same size. Rick Tipton Who used to know this stuff... a long time ago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:21:12 EST Subject: [PRR] Equipment on Madison Hill X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0fae76206463b4dc976da2ff3b4107af << The two SD7 units were not equipped with trainphones but did have dynamic brakes. Why would the PRR assign non dynamic equipped units to the Madison hill line with a 5.89% grade ??? Ken McCorry >> Hi Ken, An early Jack Fravert pic of SD-7 #8589 on the Madison Hill shows the d/b's prominently, and no trainphone antennas -- no surprise there. OTOH, I've always wondered how useful d/b's were on The Hill, because the older ones were only effective above a certain speed, and The Hill was operated dead slow -- or at least, that's what the timetable says. Wish I knew. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 12:56:37 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR From: "Doug and Marianne" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 850ceb2077a16050992428b0e5938b8a I hope that this is not too far off the list topic, but has anyone noticed how late Amtrak is running through Pennsylvania EVERY DAY? Train 40, which is now the only eastbound daytime train to New York is running between 2 and 6 hours late every single day. This train is now totally unreliable as transportation. I contacted Amtrak and got a non-specific answer about how they do care about schedules and difficulty of running on the freight railroads. When the train originated in Pittsburgh, it was generally reliable, but with the extension to Chicago and the emphasis on express, the train seems to cater to packages rather than passengers. We will be forced to rent a car for our next trip later this month. Does anyone know what is the cause of the late running and why is this tolerated? thanks Doug Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:21:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 19749968562be4a33c1fae9ea3cbe075 On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Doug and Marianne wrote: > I hope that this is not too far off the list topic, but has anyone noticed > how late Amtrak is running through Pennsylvania EVERY DAY? Train 40, which > is now the only eastbound daytime train to New York is running between 2 and > 6 hours late every single day. > > This train is now totally unreliable as transportation. I contacted Amtrak > and got a non-specific answer about how they do care about schedules and > difficulty of running on the freight railroads. > > When the train originated in Pittsburgh, it was generally reliable, but with > the extension to Chicago and the emphasis on express, the train seems to > cater to packages rather than passengers. When the train originated in Pittsburgh, there was still a Conrail. Make sure you're pointing a finger at the right root causes. -D (about to get on an Amtrak train in about 6 hours) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:36:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 383a4010c7def4c0b876a31f333cd4cf Doug, Without looking up a resoanable answer or excuse for you my bet is it is the domino effect due to the problems that NS is dealing with since the take over. Trains are backed up all over but NS seems to be starting to move them a bit. Is Amtrak to blame? possibly. Where do you think the biggest income is on their trains? It is all the baggage and mail that is being thrown their way. Again the passengers are the ones to take it on the chin. Just my opinion....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 18:22:53 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f49b86c495cc2d705c3e8f3a2d361d86 --------------CD901B5ECCD1FDAAA8CFDD62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Amtrak's problems in Pennsylvania are caused by NS's problems integrating Conrail. Before June 1, the Three Rivers, Pennsylvanian, and Capitol Limited all ran on schedule pretty well, maybe being 10 or 15 minutes late, at least going through Pittsburgh where I lived all my life until a couple months ago. The Capitol Limited would even get into Pittsburgh early going west (it switches from CSX to Conrail/NS in Pittsburgh behind the Iron City Brewery on Liberty Avenue). Going east it was late because of the congestion on Conrail's busy Chicago Line. But ever since June 1 all three trains have been running late. One Friday afternoon in July I left work about 4:30 and saw Amtrak on the North Side heading east towards the station. I thought the Pennsylvanian was arriving 45 minutes early, until I heard the conductor on the scanner tell the dispatcher that Amtrak 40 was arriving Pittsburgh station. The Three Riverswas running nearly 8 hours late! It is truly the domino effect. Amtrak gets the blame for alot of things that are not their fault. I'm just trying to set the record straight for one of those things. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ --------------CD901B5ECCD1FDAAA8CFDD62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Amtrak's problems in Pennsylvania are caused by NS's problems integrating Conrail. Before June 1, the Three Rivers, Pennsylvanian, and Capitol Limited all ran on schedule pretty well, maybe being 10 or 15 minutes late, at least going through Pittsburgh where I lived all my life until a couple months ago. The Capitol Limited would even get into Pittsburgh early going west (it switches from CSX to Conrail/NS in Pittsburgh behind the Iron City Brewery on Liberty Avenue). Going east it was late because of the congestion on Conrail's busy Chicago Line. But ever since June 1 all three trains have been running late. One Friday afternoon in July I left work about 4:30 and saw Amtrak on the North Side heading east towards the station. I thought the Pennsylvanian was arriving 45 minutes early, until I heard the conductor on the scanner tell the dispatcher that Amtrak 40 was arriving Pittsburgh station. The Three Riverswas running nearly 8 hours late! It is truly the domino effect.

Amtrak gets the blame for alot of things that are not their fault.  I'm just trying to set the record straight for one of those things.

Patrick

--
============================================================================
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet."
   -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick
============================================================================
  --------------CD901B5ECCD1FDAAA8CFDD62-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Structure Drawings Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:43:03 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 611ecc3ea3c6bfa3929ddbff4bc1f6eb One book you want is 57 Plans. These are drawings from maintenance department of the PRR. I have my copy right in front of me, and I'm not sure of the exact title. I found my copy at a train show earlier this year. It says it was published in 1967, but I think it was recently re-released. Inside this book there are plans for bridges, roadbed, freight platforms, passenger platforms, switches, signs, fences, telephone booths, water towers, signal bridges, turntables, tool house, cattle pen chute, pasenger shelter, coal trestles, well you get the idea. I cannot recommend this book enough. It doesn't have any plans for any major structures, but there is enough in this book to give you plenty of modelling ideas. I think this book has been recently re-released. Hopefully somebody else can give you more specific ordering information. Does Jerry carry it? Andy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of endeimling@mindspring.com Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 12:11 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Structure Drawings I have been looking for a source of railroad structure drawings. I have an extensive collection of MR and RMC and have found a few drawings for stations, a water tank and a signal tower. Are their ex-railroad archieves or a museum that have the PRR drawings for their structures? Gene Deimling PRRH&TS #6418 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:03:45 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d8313222fa6878fd75f595416ab15864 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01BF2889.A6046640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The other consideration with Amtrak is they have only a few years to = turn a profit or pass into history. A quick look at ridership and fares = quickly leads to the conclusion that hauling the mail and express is the = only way they're going to make it. Yes, it puts priority on the mail = before the passengers, but it seems like it's that or nothing. = Fortunately I'm retired and so can have the luxury of avoiding tight = connections. I just spend an extra day where I have to connect, rent a = car, and explore the railroads! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Rieger To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR =20 =20 =20 Amtrak's problems in Pennsylvania are caused by NS's problems = integrating Conrail. Before June 1, the Three Rivers, Pennsylvanian, and = Capitol Limited all ran on schedule pretty well, maybe being 10 or 15 = minutes late, at least going through Pittsburgh where I lived all my = life until a couple months ago. The Capitol Limited would even get into = Pittsburgh early going west (it switches from CSX to Conrail/NS in = Pittsburgh behind the Iron City Brewery on Liberty Avenue). Going east = it was late because of the congestion on Conrail's busy Chicago Line. = But ever since June 1 all three trains have been running late. One = Friday afternoon in July I left work about 4:30 and saw Amtrak on the = North Side heading east towards the station. I thought the Pennsylvanian = was arriving 45 minutes early, until I heard the conductor on the = scanner tell the dispatcher that Amtrak 40 was arriving Pittsburgh = station. The Three Riverswas running nearly 8 hours late! It is truly = the domino effect.=20 Amtrak gets the blame for alot of things that are not their fault. = I'm just trying to set the record straight for one of those things.=20 Patrick=20 --=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=20 "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty = percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he = hasn't filed for a patent yet."=20 -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---=20 Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01BF2889.A6046640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The other consideration with Amtrak = is they have=20 only a few years to turn a profit or pass into history.  A quick = look at=20 ridership and fares quickly leads to the conclusion that hauling the = mail and=20 express is the only way they're going to make it.  Yes, it puts = priority on=20 the mail before the passengers, but it seems like it's that or = nothing. =20 Fortunately I'm retired and so can have the luxury of avoiding tight=20 connections.  I just spend an extra day where I have to connect, = rent a=20 car, and explore the railroads!
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Patrick Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
T= o:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Amtrak=20 on the PRR

 
Amtrak's problems in = Pennsylvania=20 are caused by NS's problems integrating Conrail. Before June 1, the = Three=20 Rivers, Pennsylvanian, and Capitol Limited all ran = on=20 schedule pretty well, maybe being 10 or 15 minutes late, at least = going=20 through Pittsburgh where I lived all my life until a couple months = ago. The=20 Capitol Limited would even get into Pittsburgh early going = west (it=20 switches from CSX to Conrail/NS in Pittsburgh behind the Iron City = Brewery=20 on Liberty Avenue). Going east it was late because of the congestion = on=20 Conrail's busy Chicago Line. But ever since June 1 all three trains = have=20 been running late. One Friday afternoon in July I left work about = 4:30 and=20 saw Amtrak on the North Side heading east towards the station. I = thought the=20 Pennsylvanian was arriving 45 minutes early, until I heard = the=20 conductor on the scanner tell the dispatcher that Amtrak 40 was = arriving=20 Pittsburgh station. The Three Riverswas running nearly 8 = hours late!=20 It is truly the domino effect.=20

Amtrak gets the blame for alot of things that are not their = fault. =20 I'm just trying to set the record straight for one of those things.=20

Patrick=20

--=20 =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=20
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just = fifty=20 percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he = hasn't=20 filed for a patent yet."
   -David P. Morgan, = late editor=20 of TRAINS magazine=20 =
---------------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patric= k=20 =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=20
 

------=_NextPart_000_0087_01BF2889.A6046640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:17:56 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 12e3acf87b82fa097a0b206f67a53327 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF2894.0369CF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another thought on the Amtrak on time issue is that to keep the mail = contracts, Amtrak wil have to deliver the mail in a timely manner. = Since hopefully we passengers will be attached to the mail cars, we = should get there in a timely manner too. I believe that Amtrak would = like nothing better than to resolve the late issue with the host = railroads and their trains! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bigler To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR =20 =20 The other consideration with Amtrak is they have only a few years to = turn a profit or pass into history. A quick look at ridership and fares = quickly leads to the conclusion that hauling the mail and express is the = only way they're going to make it. Yes, it puts priority on the mail = before the passengers, but it seems like it's that or nothing. = Fortunately I'm retired and so can have the luxury of avoiding tight = connections. I just spend an extra day where I have to connect, rent a = car, and explore the railroads! =20 Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Rieger To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR =20 =20 =20 Amtrak's problems in Pennsylvania are caused by NS's problems = integrating Conrail. Before June 1, the Three Rivers, Pennsylvanian, and = Capitol Limited all ran on schedule pretty well, maybe being 10 or 15 = minutes late, at least going through Pittsburgh where I lived all my = life until a couple months ago. The Capitol Limited would even get into = Pittsburgh early going west (it switches from CSX to Conrail/NS in = Pittsburgh behind the Iron City Brewery on Liberty Avenue). Going east = it was late because of the congestion on Conrail's busy Chicago Line. = But ever since June 1 all three trains have been running late. One = Friday afternoon in July I left work about 4:30 and saw Amtrak on the = North Side heading east towards the station. I thought the Pennsylvanian = was arriving 45 minutes early, until I heard the conductor on the = scanner tell the dispatcher that Amtrak 40 was arriving Pittsburgh = station. The Three Riverswas running nearly 8 hours late! It is truly = the domino effect.=20 Amtrak gets the blame for alot of things that are not their = fault. I'm just trying to set the record straight for one of those = things.=20 Patrick=20 --=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=20 "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty = percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he = hasn't filed for a patent yet."=20 -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---=20 Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick=20 = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF2894.0369CF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Another thought on the Amtrak on = time issue is=20 that to keep the mail contracts, Amtrak wil have to deliver the mail in = a timely=20 manner.  Since hopefully we passengers will be attached to the mail = cars,=20 we should get there in a timely manner too.  I believe that Amtrak = would=20 like nothing better than to resolve the late issue with the host = railroads and=20 their trains!
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Bill Bigler <wbigler@stny.rr.com>
To:= =20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Saturday, November 06, 1999 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = Amtrak=20 on the PRR

The other consideration with = Amtrak is they=20 have only a few years to turn a profit or pass into history.  A = quick=20 look at ridership and fares quickly leads to the conclusion that = hauling the=20 mail and express is the only way they're going to make it.  = Yes, it=20 puts priority on the mail before the passengers, but it seems like = it's that=20 or nothing.  Fortunately I'm retired and so can have the luxury = of=20 avoiding tight connections.  I just spend an extra day where I = have to=20 connect, rent a car, and explore the railroads!
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII
-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Patrick Rieger <patrick@dementia.org>
T= o:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: = [PRR]=20 Amtrak on the PRR

 
Amtrak's = problems in=20 Pennsylvania are caused by NS's problems integrating Conrail. = Before=20 June 1, the Three Rivers, Pennsylvanian, and = Capitol=20 Limited all ran on schedule pretty well, maybe being 10 or = 15=20 minutes late, at least going through Pittsburgh where I lived = all my=20 life until a couple months ago. The Capitol Limited would = even=20 get into Pittsburgh early going west (it switches from CSX to = Conrail/NS=20 in Pittsburgh behind the Iron City Brewery on Liberty Avenue). = Going=20 east it was late because of the congestion on Conrail's busy = Chicago=20 Line. But ever since June 1 all three trains have been running = late. One=20 Friday afternoon in July I left work about 4:30 and saw Amtrak = on the=20 North Side heading east towards the station. I thought the=20 Pennsylvanian was arriving 45 minutes early, until I = heard the=20 conductor on the scanner tell the dispatcher that Amtrak 40 was = arriving=20 Pittsburgh station. The Three Riverswas running nearly 8 = hours=20 late! It is truly the domino effect.=20

Amtrak gets the blame for alot of things that are not their=20 fault.  I'm just trying to set the record straight for one = of those=20 things.=20

Patrick=20

--=20 =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=20
"...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just = fifty=20 percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, = he=20 hasn't filed for a patent yet."
   -David P. = Morgan,=20 late editor of TRAINS magazine=20 =
---------------------------------------------------------------------= -------=20
Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patric= k=20 =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=20
 

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF2894.0369CF00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] The NS problems with the PRR lines From: Fred G Rea Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 20:40:31 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: da6c7b19de408cc09523d3739f04a703 The flurry of responses to the question re AMTRAK being so late has prompted me to raise a couple of questions. First, what is left of the PRR is pretty much NS now and what is left of the "Blue Ribbon Fleet" is now AMTRAK, so I think (and hope Jerry will agree ) that this is very much "on topic". My questions are based on signs announcing "increased traffic" all over our area (central Ohio) and frequent media comments re the problems NS has with the additional trains they now have. One questions is: Where did these trains come FROM? My next question is: Unless a bunch of track has been ripped up this past Summer, why not put them back from where they came? I can not imagine that NS can accept the shipper alienation that comes from their service the past few months. My personal feelings are that neither the NS nor the RR industry can tolerate this disaster very long. Now I am aware it is not as bad as the UP problems with the SP. However, the fact that it follows that debacle only compounds the negative impact on the public. As for AMTRAK, it could not come at a worse time. It could result in the demise of AMTRAK as we know it. The fact that AMTRAK should not be used as a means of transport, only for those who have gobs of time for connections, underscores the critics claim that AMTRAK is just a joy ride for RR nuts. Also, I am sure the demise of AMTRAK would no be loss to the freight roads, particularly NS. Are any of you NS employees or NS stock holders? Perhaps we, as a group, could bring a bit of pressure on the NS Board of Directors. Fred Rea PS: I sold my little bit of UP stock and bought BNSF. I still have a bit of NS that dates from a gift of NKP stock when Berk's were still running on the W&LE. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 17:47:01 -0800 From: Roger Elliott Subject: [PRR] Bowser T-1 and Spruce creek X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2857dd68cb0d43d2d22dc7c488f029fa Hello all, I just got my T-1 from Bowser and I'm trying to figure out the best way to elminate those mold lines on the boiler. Any ideas? I am also looking for pictures of the area around Spruce Creek. If possible, I would reimburse for xeroxes or whatever. Thanks, Roger Elliott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:01:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 50aadc57e9dba902c0b43734e9f5441f In a message dated 99-11-06 16:00:55 EST, you write: << Does anyone know what is the cause of the late running and why is this tolerated? >> The problem started the very day that NS took over the railroad from Conrail. At the risk of oversimplifying, this is what happens when a new management team comes in, without any knowledge of all the little "not-in-the-book" tricks that a good manager uses to keep things moving on his territory. In a nutshell, freight trains are stopped all over the place, usually due to lack of crews. The other freight trains (and Amtrak) have to squeeze through between them. A friend of mine described the situation, fairly accurately, as "a single-track railroad from Harrisburg to Conway". You can expect to lose 2-4 hours each way between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh. I work for Amtrak, and I'm very sorry to say that I've had to pass up a free train ride and DRIVE to various points in Pennsylvania this year due to the total undependability of the trains. I have no idea when, if ever, this will end. The "non-specific" thing you were told by Amtrak is a prepared statement which all reservations clerks are told to read to anyone contemplating a trip involving trains between the East and Chicago. The CSX (former NYC) is having the same problems, although not nearly as bad as the NS. They kept as many of the old Conrail managers around as possible. Rich Copeland Glenside, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:12:29 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4b629ce7691a32750af34c9d549fba4f On Sat, 6 Nov 1999 PRRMAN@aol.com wrote: > them. A friend of mine described the situation, fairly accurately, as > "a single-track railroad from Harrisburg to Conway". And it's like that for a ways on the other side of Conway; A friend of mine and I chased a train from Trafford to Conway; It had a head start and made decent time to Conway, where it got stopped in a line of trains, out of our site below Route 65 (after dark, and far enough down that taking the bridge down to the river side in Rochester and going down toward the yard didn't help) We then went out to New Brighton and saw a train stopped eastbound in every block. It's like rush hour on a highway, only worse. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] Short Notice Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:22:50 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d81f290e12b95b0357f084f62d978c09 Hi All Heads I know that this is short notice, but my dad is coming to visit on Sunday November 6th around noon and I have a lot of questions for him about Renovo that I can't answer. Those who know me know that we came from the area and that my parents grew up there as well as my grandfathers and uncles worked for the PRR. Theses are the questions that I have for him now: 1 A picture of two milk cars and all needed information on reference to them. (For Dennis Sautters) 2. History on the engine house and turntable. (For Greg Stone) 3. History on the ice house and icing procedures. (Someone asked but I can't find there name:( ) 4. Questions about the coal tower. (For Greg Stone) 5 There are more If there any more questions please try to E-Mail me before noon on Sunday. What I can't find out I am still planning a trip back home in December if I miss that I will be returning in the spring so I can do some trout fishing. Missed the flaming foliage festival this year. I will also borrow a digital camera and get some pictures of the area to post. For Jerry, I have "The PRR Supplemental Instructions to Operating Signal and Interlocking Rules" hand book from the 1948 and "Williamsport Division Time-Table 1948" if you wish to receive to make a copy. For David Lind, I also have a copy of the logging book "The Goodyear's:An Empire in Hemlocks" and yes the publication is still readily available in the area. I can give any the publishers name and address if wanted or will purchase for you and send to you if you prefer. Just advise. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 21:53:43 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5a8e4690fc113e54f479a03b4b6d68c7 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > And it's like that for a ways on the other side of Conway; A friend of > mine and I chased a train from Trafford to Conway; It had a head start and > made decent time to Conway, where it got stopped in a line of trains, out > of our site below Route 65 (after dark, and far enough down that taking > the bridge down to the river side in Rochester and going down toward the > yard didn't help) It's been like that for months. Back in June, just a few days after the takeover, my wife and I were heading home to Pittsburgh from New Castle and decided to take the scenic route (as opposed to the turnpike). As we left New Brighton and approached Rochester there were three trains waiting to get into Conway side-by-side. Only track 2 of the Youngstown Line was clear. Conway itself was more crowded than I have ever seen it. There were two trains waiting to get into Conway on the inner two tracks, and there was a train of B&LE hoppers waiting to head west down in Ambridge. A few weeks later on the Pittsburgh Line in the Shadyside area of Pittsburgh, stopped just short of the bridge carrying Center Avenue over the tracks, a general freight with two NS GE units sat idling for four days, and I saw no sign of a crew (I lived just two blocks away so it was easy to railfan). Now that I am in Cincinnati I haven't seen much evidence of the problems. Once in a while I'll see a train sitting somewhere out on a line but that's it. Maybe cincinnati isn't one of top routes for NS? > > We then went out to New Brighton and saw a train stopped eastbound in > every block. It's like rush hour on a highway, only worse. Just like Pittsburgh's Parkway! Just 24 hours a day. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 21:50:21 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T-1 and Spruce creek X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4ac4def04521b4005867b789852a3336 Hello Roger and the list, I've eliminated mold lines the same way on all (seven so far) of my Bowser kits. I start out with a coarse mill file to eliminated the big stuff (there was very little on my T1 casting). Then, I move to needle files for the smaller stuff and around steam domes and stacks (irrelevant on the duplex, but handy elsewhere). Then, I use Testor's hobby sanding films to create a nice smooth finish. Occasionally, there are depressions in the boiler casting; I fill those with super glue or putty, depending on how patient I am. After I'm all done, I wash the boiler casting before adding any details to it or assembling the mechanism. Oil is used to get zinc castings out of the mold, and oil is unfriendly to paint and adhesives. Doug Roger Elliott wrote: > Hello all, > I just got my T-1 from Bowser and I'm trying to figure out the best way > to elminate those mold lines on the boiler. Any ideas? > > I am also looking for pictures of the area around Spruce Creek. If > possible, I would reimburse for xeroxes or whatever. > > Thanks, > Roger Elliott > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 21:57:14 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunshine Models X31F X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1cfd6510071b3741b5be0ef1d045f7e7 Gary, The picture at your web site is what clinched my purchase of the car! I've progressed a bit on the car since yesterday, and I've got it standing up on its trucks (Kadee 2DF8s). Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Doug, > > I have built both Westerfield and Sunshine kits and they both are > about the same. You use the same techniques for both. I bought my X31f > kit at a past Pennsy Convention and they were selling the correct Pennsy > trucks to go with these cars. Theyshuld still be available. A photo of > my X31f is located here. http://www.geocities.com/k4-5389/x31f.jpg I > have also built Sunshines X29 (MS) and a G class Gondola and these also > build into brass quality cars. Bowser is about to release this same X31f > Turtle Back car soon, however I don't believe it will be as nice these > resin casted models....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:56:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser T-1 and Spruce creek X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 172d6d01d2dde452958d5b969872b4a4 Roger, When I built the new T-1s I noticed that bad mold line too. What I did to get rid of it was I took rough sand paper and sanded out the biggest poblem areas. I then used putty (Squadron Green-available at hobby shops) and filled in the ugly marks. I then wet sanded the whole area and that fixed the problems. It worked for me....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:14:50 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Amtrak on former PRR,PC,Conrail...now NS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4868f7c5110d43a923597e10e124db23 Hi gang.... Its no surprise to me that there are problems. I live here near NS's hometown (I'm in Suffolk near Norfolk) And passenger trains have been gone from here for over thirty years. Its just some of the inbred ideas management has passed on over the years. Both NS and Amtrak need to work this out and soon. It (freight train ops) gets mentioned in the business section of the local paper ever two or three weeks. Its had such a effect on NS operations that NS has said here that the stock holder dividend would be lower this quarter than it has been in almost ten years. Remember NS's attitude toward steam trains? Well Amtrak will only fare a little better. Then again...i'd like to see what Amtrak's attitude is gonna be like after a while of running NS freights on the NEC.(which in my humble opinion is fine with me.) PRR and PC did ok. Why is it that the PRR (and PC) were able to run both freight and passenger trains on all their lines for so many years and did'nt have a problem like this. And they had a higher freight and passenger tonnage volume then. We did'nt have this when Amtrak took over the passenger trains and then when Conrail took over the freight end of it. Where does NS get its management from these days? Remember when PRR taught its managers from the ground up as railroad men.NS could use the Claytor brothers right about now. Is it all some of NS's attitude to the former PRR which has been gone now for over thirty years? There still are some NS management that was around then and now. But running a railroad like this would be very foolish on their part. Its sad that here in this day and age of mega mergers and techniclogical advances we can't even run them on time with the smaller tonnage volume we have today. The fixed plant has'nt changed but so much. The employees that run the trains still do so in a more or less same manner (at least engines still pull cars and start and stop.) So its got to be the way its all managed. Nuff said.... Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 00:02:45 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on former PRR,PC,Conrail...now NS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ebfdc494767c6497d81fb3ea8676c574 bubbles@visi.net wrote: > Why is it that the PRR (and PC) were able to run both > freight and passenger trains on all their lines for > so many years and did'nt have a problem like this. > And they had a higher freight and passenger tonnage > volume then. > How about why is it all of the railroads were able to run both freight and passeneger service on the same tracks without this kind of trouble? What happened when PRR and NYC merged (I was still a few months away from being born at the time)? Did they have initial troubles and were able to work it out? Were their yards filled and lines clogged? > Its sad that here in this day and age of mega mergers and > techniclogical advances we can't even run them on time > with the smaller tonnage volume we have today. > The fixed plant has'nt changed but so much. > The employees that run the trains still do > so in a more or less same manner (at least engines > still pull cars and start and stop.) > So its got to be the way its all managed. All of the roads of the past were able to run their trains on time using a schedule, Morse Code, train orders on the fly, and block signals. In this age of satellite tracking, computers, cell phones, and fewer trains, the trains are running hours and even days behind schedule. I know this is a generalization, but really, what's happening? What was lost? Maybe NS needs to bring back PRR's "Broad Way of Commerce"? Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:11:55 EST Subject: [PRR] (PRR)Regearing vs. Remotoring of diesel locomotives X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 21480b785f32a56a4835510b198e24c8 Rick and all; Thanks for the interest in the (PA/B's) AP-20's and AFP-20's. I am in the middle of my modeling article on the LL P2K representations. These "Greyhound s" were delivered with 60:23 gear ratios and were changed in 1954 to 64:14 ratios during their "open heart surgery" to make them last at least until the bank was paid. At the same time the original GE 726 traction motors were replaced with the updated GE 752 traction motor, so my research tells me. At the same time the volume of air flow to the traction motors was increased by adding to small vent on the nose. Most, but not all of the A units received these vents to the outside of the door way near the upper corners. At least one unit and perhaps the only unit, 5752 received its vents spaced closely together on the door. During this renovation the coupler doors (we should call this the enclosed pilot style) were welded shut and a new permanent openings were cut into the pilot changing the pilot to what I refer to as an open type pilot. There were slight variations on the opening too. Some units were detailed out with a rolled steel edge and others not. I should save any more information for my article when it publishes or it may turn out to be a picture book story. Yes, Virginia, more air was more better. 3^) I wished that the PA/B's could have been a more positive program for ALCo, alas the DL-304's & 305's were but a beautiful money pit. The question is, was it the block design really or the fact that the shop crews couldn't deal with 4 cycle diesels, one can only speculate? And for the BP-20's well that will be an other article. Greg Martin << TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << This kind of reminds me of the speculation that went on some time back with regard to the reason for having the screening on the nose of the BP-20's and the AFP-20's, when both regeared to dual service the larger traction motors required better ventilation. >> In a message RickTipton writes: Can we confirm this? Is this an issue of larger traction motors, or just a desire for more air intake? This statement brought me up short, because I thought regearing (for example to convert a passenger engine to freight service) was a matter of fitting a new pinion gear on the same traction motor's shaft and a new bull gear on the axle. The traction motor winds up operating in the same rpm range, but the locomotive provides lower speed/higher torque output at the rail. Since the traction motor is turning at similar speeds as it was before, the back emf and current flow should be similar, therefore traction motor heating is about the same. Thus (at least in theory), the loco wouldn't need bigger air intakes for the blowers that force-cool the traction motors. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:46:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR)Regearing vs. Remotoring of diesel locomotives X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 483eb33a525868970b1792ee82a107a7 Hey Yuze Gize, Just as it always happens you write something down and you find your own errors. That's what happens when your notes are not in front of you. It was not 5752 that had the vents in the nose door it was 5753! Sorry! And I have evidence that the vents were added to the nose prior to 1954, an I can identify units with the vents as early as July of 1951 so it goes without saying the traction motors were upgraded prior. I will make note of it and try to find the exact date for my article when it goes to a magazine for print. As I always say Research, Research, Research ... no stone goes unturned! 3^) BTW the Erie Lackawanna also added vents to their PA's too! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 22:23:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR From: "Doug and Marianne" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6be0ff46b696f2643fa9f14f7439e5c8 > As for AMTRAK, it could not come at a worse time. It could result in >the demise of AMTRAK as we know it. The fact that AMTRAK should not be >used as a means of transport, only for those who have gobs of time for >connections, underscores the critics claim that AMTRAK is just a joy ride >for RR nuts. I am a "TRAIN NUT" (as certified by my mother-in-law), and I'm not going to ride Amtrak later this month between Johnstown and Philadelphia due to the unreliability. I was willing to pay significantly more for the 2 train tickets, than the cost of a rental car, but not at the risk of so many hours late. Even us nuts have our limits. Once us nuts are not riding Amtrak who will be left?? Doug. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 02:02:17 -0500 From: Patrick Rieger Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f80596fc8d025a4a76f4760f0024ad02 > I am a "TRAIN NUT" (as certified by my mother-in-law), and I'm not going to > ride Amtrak later this month between Johnstown and Philadelphia due to the > unreliability. I was willing to pay significantly more for the 2 train > tickets, than the cost of a rental car, but not at the risk of so many hours > late. Even us nuts have our limits. Once us nuts are not riding Amtrak who > will be left?? I wish I had an answer to this but I don't. The shame is the lack of caring and interest by so many people. I am in graduate school for transportation planning at the University of Cincinnati, and one of my professors (a man of considerable experience and knowledge) has said a few times that the United States once had the best railroad system in the world, you could go anywhere, and now it's nothing but a shadow of its former self. It seems so many other countries now have what we gave up. Once something was found that was "better" we got rid of the old, something we do a lot, and now that people wish we still had it, there's nothing to go back to without the considerable cost of rebuilding. Patrick -- ============================================================================ "...if anyone has bolted together a mechanism with just fifty percent of the steam locomotive's solid spiritual satisfaction, he hasn't filed for a patent yet." -David P. Morgan, late editor of TRAINS magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick James Rieger, http://www.dementia.org/~patrick ============================================================================ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Grand Trunk Unit EB on CSX Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:18:54 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8ad6276c9cfc72e3c072bd4073d0bbb2 A Grand Trunk GP is the second unit of an EB CSX freight now approaching Alliquippa, PA on the CSX, headed for Cumberland, MD. CSX continues to grab ex-Conrail unit coal trains. WB on CSX approaching New Castle (PA) Yard at this time is a Detroit Edison unit train... DEEX "tubs" (orange ends/aluminum), with at least one BN "tub" in the consist. Saturday one of many Somerset Railroad unit trains was headed WB on CSX. We've added Railfan and Model Railroad Club Open House NEWS to our website at , along with more unusual diesels visiting Conway Yard. Be sure to check out the notice of the Annual Dinner of the Beaver Valley Junction Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. The speaker will be Bill Metzger. We invite you to stop by! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] 027 Pennsy Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:18:58 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 300a8473b8a0e8569414615225c74601 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF2901.1F453A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list I am currently 'refurbishing' a number of older 027 cars and was = wondering who handles S and O scale decales. Before anyone cries 'foul', = all of these cars were basket cases. Included are a number of Madison = passanger cars which I would love to do in tuscan. And yes, I have = replaced the grabs with wire, and done other little tweeks, so although = not up to par with my HO equipment, grandpap and the kids should be = happy. Any help on the decals would be greatly appreciated. Walt Prusick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF2901.1F453A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list
I am currently 'refurbishing' a number = of older 027=20 cars and was wondering who handles S and O scale decales. Before anyone=20 cries 'foul', all of these cars were basket cases. = Included are=20 a number of Madison passanger cars which I would love to do in tuscan. = And yes,=20 I have replaced the grabs with wire, and done other little tweeks, so = although=20 not up to par with my HO equipment, grandpap and the kids should be = happy.=20 Any help on the decals would be greatly appreciated.
 
Walt = Prusick 
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF2901.1F453A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry P. Morgan" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Emblems. Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:49:59 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9846be4fcfd8e67f9ba3f66de319497e This is my first posting since rejoining the list. It is a test as well as a question. In 3-rail, I am seeing many keystone emblems. I am not sure I understand the time periods. I understood the CIRCLE KEYSTONE was the only one used on freight cars. Was it different for cabin cars? Is a cabin car with a PLAIN KEYSTONE or SHADOW KEYSTONE clearly from the early 1950s or later? How about the DOODLEBUGS? What is the time period for the various keystones? Did PRR STEAMERS have a keystone under their cab windows before the 1950s? I am doing a hi-rail layout loosely based on the 1930s Mountain division. I want to be certain the equipment I buy matches. I have purchased what books I can find that are available to help with this, but I do not quite know the answers. Suggestions on books that are still available that cover the 1930's Mountain Division including its branch lines would be appreciated. Thanks you, Larry Morgan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:24:39 -0500 (EST) From: Harry Owens Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fd752f02ff964b1487317478bb104129 IN all fairness to AMTRAK I have to say that service between Harrisburg and Philadelphia is running on time. I take these trains every week and there isn't a problem. BUT go one foot west of Harrisburg station and the trouble begins. Harry OwensOn Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Doug and Marianne wrote: > > > As for AMTRAK, it could not come at a worse time. It could result in > >the demise of AMTRAK as we know it. The fact that AMTRAK should not be > >used as a means of transport, only for those who have gobs of time for > >connections, underscores the critics claim that AMTRAK is just a joy ride > >for RR nuts. > > I am a "TRAIN NUT" (as certified by my mother-in-law), and I'm not going to > ride Amtrak later this month between Johnstown and Philadelphia due to the > unreliability. I was willing to pay significantly more for the 2 train > tickets, than the cost of a rental car, but not at the risk of so many hours > late. Even us nuts have our limits. Once us nuts are not riding Amtrak who > will be left?? > > Doug. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 14:45:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on former PRR,PC,Conrail...now NS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 78165ab2ecf9becda838363f2b2a18ed In a message dated 99-11-07 00:21:28 EST, patrick@dementia.org writes: What happened when PRR and NYC merged (I was still a few months away from being born at the time)? Did they have initial troubles < Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on former PRR,PC,Conrail...now NS Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:41:08 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f94fbabddfda2a373bfaff750d9ef995 Does anyone know how many trains the PRR got over the mountain from Altoona at the peak of traffic (probably WWII)? Seems to me there were 55-60 passenger trains, so must have been a couple hundred freights over a 24 hour period back then. They did it then with telephones, teletypes, telegraphs, and hand signals. Using steam engines and steam helpers, with all the servicing required. Today they have radios, cell-phones, computers, sattelites, etc. What am I missing? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: bubbles@visi.net To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 11:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Amtrak on former PRR,PC,Conrail...now NS > > Hi gang.... > > Its no surprise to me that there are problems. I live > here near NS's hometown (I'm in Suffolk near Norfolk) > And passenger trains have been gone from here for over > thirty years. Its just some of the inbred ideas > management has passed on over the years. Both NS > and Amtrak need to work this out and soon. > > It (freight train ops) gets mentioned in the business > section of the local paper ever two or three weeks. > Its had such a effect on NS operations that NS > has said here that the stock holder dividend would > be lower this quarter than it has been in almost > ten years. Remember NS's attitude toward steam trains? > Well Amtrak will only fare a little better. Then > again...i'd like to see what Amtrak's attitude > is gonna be like after a while of running NS freights > on the NEC.(which in my humble opinion is fine with me.) > PRR and PC did ok. > > Why is it that the PRR (and PC) were able to run both > freight and passenger trains on all their lines for > so many years and did'nt have a problem like this. > And they had a higher freight and passenger tonnage > volume then. > > We did'nt have this when Amtrak took over the passenger > trains and then when Conrail took over the freight > end of it. Where does NS get its management from > these days? Remember when PRR taught its managers > from the ground up as railroad men.NS could use the > Claytor brothers right about now. > Is it all some of NS's attitude to the former PRR > which has been gone now for over thirty years? > There still are some NS management that was > around then and now. But running a railroad like > this would be very foolish on their part. > > Its sad that here in this day and age of mega mergers and > techniclogical advances we can't even run them on time > with the smaller tonnage volume we have today. > The fixed plant has'nt changed but so much. > The employees that run the trains still do > so in a more or less same manner (at least engines > still pull cars and start and stop.) > So its got to be the way its all managed. > > Nuff said.... > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:11:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on former PRR,PC,Conrail...now NS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f9fdd948af2d89207ac2873064959676 In some places the third and fourth track. The BROAD WAY has been severly restricted ( except AR-UN to MO, still have all 5 mains ) but the CTC and computers can cope with that. It is still the human factor that comes into play. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] New MT coil-elliptical trucks Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:18:42 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5b0b5540736964bd2f2a45d5093b6c4b The coil-elliptical trucks that are on the MT PRR round-rooof boxcar are already available separately. The ones that I know of are #1137 and #1138, 1 pair with short and medium coupler extensions, respectively. I don't know of a long extension, nor of couplerless or low profile wheel versions at this time. I took a look at these coupers, and they appear to be copies of MT's 50-ton Bettendorfs with the left coil (looking at it from either side) replaced by a leaf spring. The structural members look like they're squarer than stock MT Bettendorfs; I don't know if this is intentional (ie, the prototype truck was fabricated out of bar stock) or if it's simply fresher tooling. Are either of these features a Pennsy hallmark? In other words, did MT model a known PRR truck, or did they start with their Bettendorf tooling? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 14:30:56 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] New MT coil-elliptical trucks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5a9c1f6881f353ed6a5f3db406f98193 Dennis, The tooling is all new and they used PRR plans for them. Chuck Friedlein Dennis Rockwell wrote: > The coil-elliptical trucks that are on the MT PRR > round-rooof boxcar are already available separately. > > The ones that I know of are #1137 and #1138, 1 pair with > short and medium coupler extensions, respectively. I don't > know of a long extension, nor of couplerless or low profile > wheel versions at this time. > > I took a look at these coupers, and they appear to be copies > of MT's 50-ton Bettendorfs with the left coil (looking at it > from either side) replaced by a leaf spring. The structural > members look like they're squarer than stock MT Bettendorfs; > I don't know if this is intentional (ie, the prototype truck > was fabricated out of bar stock) or if it's simply fresher > tooling. > > Are either of these features a Pennsy hallmark? In other > words, did MT model a known PRR truck, or did they start > with their Bettendorf tooling? > > Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA > > I love the smell of brakeshoes in the morning! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:10:23 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] 027 Pennsy X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 955f73171b96444f1dde4260971681b6 --Boundary_(ID_CjKRPyU7WC5wUH4zv0SyRQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walt and the List, This is a subject near to my HO-sized heart. I would eventually like to get some basket case Madison cars for my O Scale MTH K4s to pull (I had the money for either the K4s or the MTH passenger cars, so it was a no-brainer). My favorite decals are from Champ. I prefer dulux gold lettering and striping, so I'd use set P156. If you wanted bronze gold lettering, try set P4. To add stripes, use set S91 for dulux gold, and set S90 in bronze gold. You can link to Champ's site through Keystone Crossings, if memory serves. Hope this helps! Doug Walt Prusick wrote: > Dear listI am currently 'refurbishing' a number of older 027 cars and > was wondering who handles S and O scale decales. Before anyone cries > 'foul', all of these cars were basket cases. Included are a number of > Madison passanger cars which I would love to do in tuscan. And yes, I > have replaced the grabs with wire, and done other little tweeks, so > although not up to par with my HO equipment, grandpap and the kids > should be happy. Any help on the decals would be greatly > appreciated. Walt Prusick --Boundary_(ID_CjKRPyU7WC5wUH4zv0SyRQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Walt and the List,

This is a subject near to my HO-sized heart.  I would eventually like to get some basket case Madison cars for my O Scale MTH K4s to pull (I had the money for either the K4s or the MTH passenger cars, so it was a no-brainer).  My favorite decals are from Champ.  I prefer dulux gold lettering and striping, so I'd use set P156.  If you wanted bronze gold lettering, try set P4.  To add stripes, use set S91 for dulux gold, and set S90 in bronze gold.  You can link to Champ's site through Keystone Crossings, if memory serves.

Hope this helps!

Doug

Walt Prusick wrote:

Dear listI am currently 'refurbishing' a number of older 027 cars and was wondering who handles S and O scale decales. Before anyone cries 'foul', all of these cars were basket cases. Included are a number of Madison passanger cars which I would love to do in tuscan. And yes, I have replaced the grabs with wire, and done other little tweeks, so although not up to par with my HO equipment, grandpap and the kids should be happy. Any help on the decals would be greatly appreciated. Walt Prusick
--Boundary_(ID_CjKRPyU7WC5wUH4zv0SyRQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 17:32:38 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Cal Scale 190-311 USRA Tender Trucks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ff97737002f5fe8379260c3bb9f3cb07 Hello list, This is marginally off topic (as I understand it, none of PRR's USRA power had the USRA tender trucks), but I'll ask anyway. Do any of you have experience with Cal Scale's USRA Tender trucks? Are they assembled, or in kit form? Do they roll decently? I've been unlucky with brass tender truck kits for some reason; this is one of the few areas where I'd prefer to purchase ready to run products. So far as I know (I also have a PSC catalog), the Cal Scale USRA tender trucks are the only ones available in HO. Thanks in advance! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cal Scale 190-311 USRA Tender Trucks Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:28:30 -0700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 54326d29d517c61cc2bc519b20cbdb33 Hi Doug and all, While I haven't had a chance to look over the USRA truck, I did recently acquire a pair of Cal Scale's Andrews tender truck (for my long-delayed L1s project). They aren't too bad, and roll decently. A bit on the pricey side though (at 20 bucks a pair). Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 4:37 PM Subject: [PRR] Cal Scale 190-311 USRA Tender Trucks >Hello list, > >This is marginally off topic (as I understand it, none of PRR's USRA >power had the USRA tender trucks), but I'll ask anyway. Do any of you >have experience with Cal Scale's USRA Tender trucks? Are they >assembled, or in kit form? Do they roll decently? I've been unlucky >with brass tender truck kits for some reason; this is one of the few >areas where I'd prefer to purchase ready to run products. So far as I >know (I also have a PSC catalog), the Cal Scale USRA tender trucks are >the only ones available in HO. > >Thanks in advance! > >Doug > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:30:43 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cal Scale 190-311 USRA Tender Trucks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 23f20669dbb4a45abe42febae2af9d1f Hi Doug & list members, Whoa there, Doug. I'm looking at Pennsy Steam: A-T by Carleton, page 21 has a photo of a USRA 0-6-0 (PRR road class B28) with USRA tender trucks (a type of leaf-spring Andrews, from the overall appearance). So I wouldn't say "none" so quickly... - Claus > Hello list, > > This is marginally off topic (as I understand it, none of PRR's USRA > power had the USRA tender trucks), but I'll ask anyway. Do any of you > have experience with Cal Scale's USRA Tender trucks? Are they > assembled, or in kit form? Do they roll decently? I've been unlucky > with brass tender truck kits for some reason; this is one of the few > areas where I'd prefer to purchase ready to run products. So far as I > know (I also have a PSC catalog), the Cal Scale USRA tender trucks are > the only ones available in HO. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:02:17 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] USRA Trucks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c2afa42525d697fbe138428087217866 Hi all... Ok since some of us are talking about tender trucks... What type of truck were under the K-5 tenders...This would be the original ones not the later post war keisels. They also look to be a type that Bowser lists in their catalog as a USRA type. The ones they sell are close to the K-5 type,but there is a little bit of difference. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 7 Nov 99 20:25:32 EST From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] Re; Amtrak on the former PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3ae70f572e29a89c4a192d3137c5d197 Bill Bigler wrote: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; Amtrak on the former PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cdab195dc5ede899d3b726898daef077 PETER TYRRELL JR. wrote: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I think that what is missing is the way we operated in those days. In the > late 1930's the Empire State was occupied by the first tenant Thirteen and one > half months after ground was broken. The steel was moved over the PRR on a > just in time basis, as there was no room to pile and store it > in Manhattan. Today you could not get a building permit that fast, let alone > environmental approval. We live in a different world today. Greetings to Peter and the list: So true. Many carloads of cement moved over PRR in support of building the Pennsylvania Turnpike, 160 miles of unprecedented four-lane divided highway with seven tunnels, plus 10 interchanges and 10 service plazas, was built from Oct. 27, 1938, to Oct. 1, 1940 -- less than two years. East Broad Top also got some of this construction traffic (sort of a consolation prize for having lost the South Pennsylvania RR connection 50 years earlier). And remember, this was *government* doing this. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@prodigy.net Lam. 3:22-23 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:33:27 EST Subject: [PRR] Amtrak on the former PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 214c63621bb000ae3e08a94023a43e57 In a message dated 11/7/1999 7:53:30 PM Central Standard Time, Cupper@prodigy.net writes: << Many carloads of cement moved over PRR in support of building the Pennsylvania Turnpike, 160 miles of unprecedented four-lane divided highway with seven tunnels, plus 10 interchanges and 10 service plazas, was built from Oct. 27, 1938, to Oct. 1, 1940 -- less than two years. East Broad Top also got some of this construction traffic (sort of a consolation prize for having lost the South Pennsylvania RR connection 50 years earlier). >> I was always impressed that the entire Cincinatti area interurban complex was completed and up and running in 11 months in the early 20th century -- read that somewhere, perhaps someone in the area can confirm or deny. However, money talks--the approach and road bridge over the Conrail tracks at Hammond, Indiana , to get to Mr. Trump's lakefront casino there was up in a flash. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:47:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The NS problems with the PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9c6ed87cd8a2e68eca8674e61f518b77 The problem is not track capacity or track condition. The problem lies with NS decision to transfer NS Chief Dispatchers into former CR dispatch centers. The NS policy seems to be that a dispatcher cannot make a move without approval of the Chief Dispatcher. Relegating the dispatchers to button pushers. The result is Chief Dispatchers unfamiliar with the nuisances of the track, best locations for passings, time to move between CP etc are making all the decisions. The end result is numerous crews "timing out" and/or sitting waiting for clearance and replacement crews unavailable. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:38:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Structure Drawings X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5246014abec848e924ce5ecf540bb02b In a message dated 11/06/1999 6:50:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ajc5150@net66.com writes: > One book you want is 57 Plans. These are drawings from maintenance > department of the PRR. > I have my copy right in front of me, and I'm not sure of the exact title. I > found my copy at a train show earlier this year. It says it was published > in 1967, but I think it was recently re-released. > The book is "Pennsylvania Railroad Standard Maintenance of Way PLANS" Published in 1967 by The Builders Compendium, Cossayuna, NY 12823. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:27:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Emblems. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2ee9bc798df736575b117f733bad89e3 Larry, Proper keystone logos are a real problem, and we don't have to pick on the 3-rail manufacturers to see it. Let's face it, even in HO, there was a time when, if you hung a keystone on anything, it'd sell. In a message dated 11/7/99 10:01:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, lpmorgan@iquest.net writes: << This is my first posting since rejoining the list. It is a test as well as a question. In 3-rail, I am seeing many keystone emblems. I am not sure I understand the time periods. I understood the CIRCLE KEYSTONE was the only one used on freight cars.>> No. Specifically for freight cars, NK - 1876 to 1929, no keystone CK - 1930 to early 1954, Circle keystone (often omitted on flat cars) SK - Feb 1954 to early 1961, Shadow keystone PK - 1961 to merger, Plain keystone There'll be much more on this if I ever get the Covered Hopper Lettering article completed for the PRRT&HS magazine, the Keystone. Was it different for cabin cars?>> No, except that during the long CK period, most cabins were still lettered in the fourth NK variant, displaying no keystone. N8 cabins were the exception -- built late, they seem to have carried the CK from delivery. << Is a cabin car with a PLAIN KEYSTONE>> >From after 1960 << or SHADOW KEYSTONE clearly from the early 1950s or later?>> 1954-1961 << How about the DOODLEBUGS? What is the time period for the various keystones?>> My observation is that these cars were lettered like passenger cars. PENNSYLVANIA across the letterboard was normal until almost the end, when some might have gotten diesel-style red/white keystone decals instead, after a repaint. << Did PRR STEAMERS have a keystone under their cab windows before the 1950s? >> No. I believe the only keystone belonging on a steam engine is the cast number plate up front (there's a T-1 paint scheme that also paints keystones on the tender, I think). Notice that, in general, there's freight car lettering (including cabins), there's passenger car lettering, and there's locomotive lettering (in freight and passenger variants). At the same time, all four of these lettering realms could have somewhat different standard practices. Hope this helps, Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 23:05:55 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Emblems. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d18243c32e75eb655c6b5bef7863d1c1 Rick, Larry & List: No Pennsylvania gas car (doodlebug to you Lines Westers) that I know of ever was repainted with any kind of emblem except... one of the two Westinghouse diesel-electric cars (4663, I believe), which you may possibly recall seeing as rebuilt with a shovel-nosed front end for a short-lived experiment on the Grand Rapids-Muskegon branch in the late 1930s (?) Being a railcar man (Brill, baby, Brill), I have always wondered about that oddball rebuild. Anyone know the story behind it? Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New MT coil-elliptical trucks Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 00:13:08 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 49b8a6999083419abc8da48704dedd63 On 7 Nov, Chuck Friedlein wrote: > The tooling is all new and they used PRR plans for them. Great! Now, the next questions are, what's the Pennsy name for this truck, and for what cars is this truck appropriate for in the 1954 time frame? Personally, lacking anything better, this is now the truck of choice for all of my 50-ton PRR rolling stock. I would assume, however, that this wouldn't be the closest available N Scale truck for all such rolling stock. Too much of my photo evidence is out of my modelling period for me to be sure about such things. For instance, the caption under the only photo in the PRR Color Guide Vol 1 that clearly has a similar truck in it says that they're special high-speed trucks. Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA Boxcars, flat cars, going-to-North Platte cars... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:41:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Amtrak Announcement Due Today From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8efd02aab691da7f51892d2041bee761 A report in yesterday's (Harrisburg) Patriot News reported that Amtrak is making a big announcement today, in conjunction with the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation. The announcement entails "high speed rail", the "Keystone Corridor" (Philly to Harrisburg), and "millions of dollars". The project was cited as being the largest passenger rail project since the glory days of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Boy it was good to hear that! The "PRR-Talk" lists Dan Cupper was quoted as saying this line was already rated for 90 mph. So, the conjecture is that they will be upgrading to well beyond that. Apparently ridership has risen dramatically on this corridor over the past few years. -------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@dsop.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:43:58 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5a89f867559fe45ec2f6186531762a93 --On Son, 7. Nov 1999 21:47 +0000 Rich Orr wrote: > The problem is not track capacity or track condition. The problem lies with > NS decision to transfer NS Chief Dispatchers into former CR dispatch centers. This is just another symptom of the real problem: arrogance (see my earlier rant in list archives). Now, formerly cash-rich NS has been rumored to have borrowed money from BNSF to meet payroll. Recently, a a well-connected RR historian told me that three friends of his, NS field hands (former CR employees), received their pay in the mail on BNSF checks! Taken together with the recent downgrading of NS stock to "negative" by S&P, this bodes ill for railroading in Pennsylvania -- and for deregulation. In an article last week in the Pgh Post-Gazette, it was interesting to see NS officials blame Hurricane Floyd's ravages, in part, for their failure to solve problems in PRR territory. Meanwhile, Conway Yard (on the unflooded banks of the O-Hi-O) is still a parking lot filled with empty loads and loaded empties (sort of a model railroad "'timesaver' from Hell") and ANTRAK's Eastbound Captitol Limited averages 6.5 hrs. late into Pgh because of congestion west of there. We'll see if NS can pull this out, but it's just possible that NS may have reached its high water mark as an independent corporation. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines From: Fred G Rea Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:04:01 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f399cc8b06c8f482b234becedd933c14 Does this forebode a BNSFNS in the near future? Then, of course, UPCSX would be soon there after. Fred --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu To: SUVCWORR@aol.com, fredrea@juno.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:43:58 -0500 Message-ID: <224359.3151050236@gruel167.ppp.andrew.cmu.edu> --On Son, 7. Nov 1999 21:47 +0000 Rich Orr wrote: > The problem is not track capacity or track condition. The problem lies with > NS decision to transfer NS Chief Dispatchers into former CR dispatch centers. This is just another symptom of the real problem: arrogance (see my earlier rant in list archives). Now, formerly cash-rich NS has been rumored to have borrowed money from BNSF to meet payroll. Recently, a a well-connected RR historian told me that three friends of his, NS field hands (former CR employees), received their pay in the mail on BNSF checks! Taken together with the recent downgrading of NS stock to "negative" by S&P, this bodes ill for railroading in Pennsylvania -- and for deregulation. In an article last week in the Pgh Post-Gazette, it was interesting to see NS officials blame Hurricane Floyd's ravages, in part, for their failure to solve problems in PRR territory. Meanwhile, Conway Yard (on the unflooded banks of the O-Hi-O) is still a parking lot filled with empty loads and loaded empties (sort of a model railroad "'timesaver' from Hell") and ANTRAK's Eastbound Captitol Limited averages 6.5 hrs. late into Pgh because of congestion west of there. We'll see if NS can pull this out, but it's just possible that NS may have reached its high water mark as an independent corporation. Vagel Keller --------- End forwarded message ---------- ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:19:20 -0600 (CST) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: Re: [PRR] The NS problems with the PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e3332c7b4c510d46fc26360c45a826e7 This thread has been fascinating. It is an almost exact duplication of the problems that occurred down here when UP swallowed SP. One would think the management folks up there would have learned from others' mistakes. Guess not. Buy NS stock while it is low. They will work through their problems eventually just like UP did, and the stock price will go up. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 13:16:10 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Amtrak-PennDOT to spend $140 million to upgrade X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e0ff85a1e3974e5bc5dde3fa2d2704a7 Jerry Britton wrote: > > A report in yesterday's (Harrisburg) Patriot News reported that Amtrak is making a big announcement today, in conjunction with the Pennsylvania > Department of Transportation. > Pa. Lt. Gov. Mark Schweiker and Amtrak President George Warrington were the headline speakers at this morning's press conference at Amtrak's Harrisburg station. Amtrak and PennDOT will spend $140 million to upgrade service on the Hbg.-Phila. line to 110 mph standards under Amtrak's "Acela Regional" banner. Some of the best news involves motive power: The plan involves continuation of electrification, which has often been threatened, on the 103-mile line. Currently, the service is propelled 100 percent by Genesis diesels, even for the three-Amfleet-car locals that protect the Hbg-Phila. and Hbg.-Phila.-NY schedules. For the press conference, AEM7 909 in Northeast Corridor paint scheme was heading three Amfleet cars repainted in Acela Regional colors (variations of turquoise). Attendees walked through the cars, whose interiors had been refurbished. Here are the highlights of the plan: -- Rehabbing of AEM7 electrics specifically for this service. -- Rehabbing of Amfleet cars to Acela standards (i.e., business-class service on some cars). -- Conversion of some Amfleet cars to cab cars. -- Restoration of Amtrak service to Suburban Station in downtown Philly (thus, the electric locomotives and the cab cars). -- Installation of more continuous welded rail on the line, and signal work. -- Elimination of the last three remaining highway grade crossings on the line, all in Lancaster County (Irishtown Road between Lancaster and Paradise, Eby-Chiques Rock Road and another local road between Lancaster and Elizabethtown). -- Upgrading of catenary and power distribution system. -- Minor station improvements at Harrisburg, Elizabethtown, Lancaster. -- Construction of a new station at Harrisburg International Airport. -- Target running time of 90 minutes for a limited-stops express. -- First trainset should enter serive in the spring of 2000. Copyright (c) 1999 by Dan Cupper Above summary may be shared for non-commercial uses with copyright notice retained. Permission is required to reprint it in any periodical or publication, electronic or otherwise, for which a subscription fee of any kind is charged. # # # ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MSand17545@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:19:57 EST Subject: [PRR] Atglen and Susquehana Branch? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: da943d1a64d2cd5c01ab281a9cdc0d04 I live near the (Atglen and Susquehanna Branch) which is an abandon branch of the Pennsylvania railroad and I was wondering what's to come of it, I heard the railroad is planning to take down its trestles. Is this true? Does the railroad still own this branch (right of way)? Are all the culverts and bridges still intacked? Thanks for helping me, I really hope someone can restore this branch or at least make a trail out of it! Thanks again for the help! Graham ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:14:11 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] Passenger car question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6b5c78a7aa3e09435cf6482df86380b9 Hi, Does anyone know the difference, if any, between a B60 and a B60B baggage car. The LIRR had B60B's but not B60's and I wanted to know the difference to see if the Eastern Car Works B60 kit would work for the LIRR. Thanks! Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash Department of Psychology P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 714-278-2669 714-278-7134 (Fax) E-Mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:54:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2af4c92130e4c8de1292312d7f99c6e8 In a message dated 99-11-08 12:52:38 EST, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: We'll see if NS can pull this out, but it's just possible that NS may have reached its high water mark as an independent corporation. >> <> Apropos of nothing, please note the middle two letters of BNSF. Further, I predict any merger between the UP and CSX will be called "Union Pacific" except by CSX employees, who will call it "The Borg". Resistance is futile. Rick Tipton Earth zulu minus five ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:17:53 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak on former PRR,PC,Conrail...now NS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5779903f2ecf79a28c5daf608e927c4f Actually, the PC merger was worse than the current situation with NS. The historical sources about the PC merger (2 are listed below) note endless problems that came from combining two near bankrupt, very dissimilar lines that never learned to work together...until CONRAIL came along and used Uncle Sam's money to salvage what was left. PC Problems at the time of the merger included: 10% of track bad ordered to less than 10 mph 9% of freight cars bad-ordered 1/3 of revenues unbilled at 30 days a 10% error rate in each systems computers--which could not be made to talk to each other. $400,000 operating loss per day NET cash on hand at merger of $13 million--and no credit average train moved 37 miles a day and sat idle for 20 hours a day. One entire freight train was lost on the system for 10 days Management attitudes--"If you don't like it, walk" AJ Perlman, ex-NYC pres and 1st Pres of PC to disgruntled commuters The current NS problems will be (are being?) solved and NS will prosper as usual. It's only a matter of time. Their management does know what it's doing, even if it is not always the way that PRR or Conrail would have done things. NS and it's predecessors have been always been successful--after all NS bought Conrail and not the other way around. (The same can be said about CSX.) The books are: The Wreck of the Penn Central by Dugher & Binzen No Way to Run a Railroad by Stephen Salisbury ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:27:05 -0700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 32b27e062ac2aa1e9ed62378ebf43ec7 Down here in (ex) SP country they ALREADY are calling the UP that! Bill Daniels Tucson AZ > Fred >> >Apropos of nothing, please note the middle two letters of BNSF. Further, I >predict any merger between the UP and CSX will be called "Union Pacific" >except by CSX employees, who will call it "The Borg". Resistance is futile. > >Rick Tipton >Earth zulu minus five > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 19:35:48 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] Electrified Lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cd863855872cb1e58d91693d6e9def00 Howdy Alfred: You could have been at the Farm Diner or Hennigans Restaurant. The Farm Diner is in Mount Joy proper while Hennigans is out a bit. You can see the railroad from inside the farm diner, not at Hennigans. You can almost see my house from the Farm Diner. You were sitting next to Amtrak's former PRR Harrisburg MAIN LINE ( what branch was this?) There has been considerable talk about this line on this list today - the last is a post from Dan Cupper on the press release today. There is considerable passenger traffic on this line and its picking up. No through NS freights, as this line from Harrisburg to Philadelphia is mostly commuter (Septa). In Conrail days it had as many as three locals per day working out of Lancaster working west. One went as far as Middletown. I haven't figured out the NS operation yet, but we had our first GE come through about a month ago. I don't know how the local industrial tracks like these heavy units, though I have not heard of any derailments. In years gone by the PRR blue ribbon fleet went through town. I can remember many double headed G's with long strings of passenger equipment bumping behind. Someone commented that this line is rated at 90mph. I don't think that they get much over 79mph on the jointed stuff that runs through town. AGO3@aol.com wrote: > This summer I was in Mt. Joy, Lancaster County, PA., and I ate dinner at a > restaurant in town. Behind the restaurant was an electrified line. I know > this is Conrail (x-PC and PRR). What branch was this? I thought all > electric service was eliminated on Conrail. Was this an Amtrak line? > > Alfred Olsen > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "Conrail-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:57:03 EST Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9d0903dfa6e894fcb16227770f0afde4 Remember what BNSF really stands for: "Buy Norfolk Southern First". I have heard that the BNSF is interested in buying NS if things don't improve within a year. But with the way the last 2 megamergers have gone (UP/SP and CR/CSX/NS), I doubt that the STB will approve any more megamergers anytime soon. I'm still holding on to the faint hope that the STB will step in and start operating NS's portion of CR separately until NS gets their act together (if that ever happens). In my humble opinion, it's time to put "The Thoroughbred" out to pasture. Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] WHAT HAPPENED TO PRR! Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:22:44 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a940e192668b5ec7feaa7e0a179d6143 I THOUGHT THIS WAS A PRR TALK PAGE. LATELY MOST OF THE TALK IS OF CURRENT EVENTS. WHAT UP JERRY? GREG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:52:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] WHAT HAPPENED TO PRR! From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5839c694ac89082be798f697a8cfe7f5 On 11/8/99 8:22 PM, Greg Stone at (gas@fastinet.net) wrote: > I THOUGHT THIS WAS A PRR TALK PAGE. LATELY MOST OF THE TALK IS OF CURRENT > EVENTS. WHAT UP JERRY? So talk PRR! True, there's a thread about NS problems and a theoretical merger with BNSF that, if anything, belongs on the Conrail list (hint, hint), but the thread about Amtrak improvement of the former PRR main line between Philly and Harrisburg is somewhat appropriate. There are over 350 subscribers on this list. I am not the entertainment chair! Everyone is entitled to speak and should...PRR! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:56:03 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Emblems. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cbd36aaf37686c7389a140d964138831 Is this the same one that ran on the Indianapolis & Vincennes starting in 1941? Steve Long Richard Wallis wrote: > Rick, Larry & List: > > No Pennsylvania gas car (doodlebug to you Lines Westers) that I know of ever was > repainted with any kind of emblem except... > one of the two Westinghouse diesel-electric cars (4663, I believe), which you > may possibly recall seeing as rebuilt with a shovel-nosed front end for a > short-lived experiment on the Grand Rapids-Muskegon branch in the late 1930s (?) > Being a railcar man (Brill, baby, Brill), I have always wondered about that > oddball rebuild. Anyone know the story behind it? > > Richard Wallis > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 20:58:31 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: aa27cdaa2cecb9f2af00fbd161d05e17 I'm still holding on to the faint hope that the STB will step in and >start operating NS's portion of CR separately until NS gets their act >together (if that ever happens). In my humble opinion, it's time to put "The >Thoroughbred" out to pasture. > That's certainly a pleasant thought, Sean. Although I doubt the STB will make any move on its own. Probably only when shippers start demanding action from their Congressmen will anything happen. BTW, are you aware "The Thoroughbred" has been named "Nightmare" in Conrail Country? -----Original Message----- From: Sean121982@aol.com To: RickTipton@aol.com ; fredrea@juno.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 8:22 PM Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines >Remember what BNSF really stands for: "Buy Norfolk Southern First". I have >heard that the BNSF is interested in buying NS if things don't improve within >a year. But with the way the last 2 megamergers have gone (UP/SP and >CR/CSX/NS), I doubt that the STB will approve any more megamergers anytime >soon. I'm still holding on to the faint hope that the STB will step in and >start operating NS's portion of CR separately until NS gets their act >together (if that ever happens). In my humble opinion, it's time to put "The >Thoroughbred" out to pasture. > >Sean McDonnell > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:02:00 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b55a1aa1f3d2e281edce270fe386bea6 Further, I >predict any merger between the UP and CSX will be called "Union Pacific" >except by CSX employees, who will call it "The Borg". Resistance is futile. > That's about the way the Conrail employees feel, Rick, with respect to NS. And all of this is made so much worse by the fact that CSX is, on balance, operating quite well and is quickly becoming "the new Conrail" with Mr. Conway and so much of the Conrail management team in place and making the railroad work. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Daniels To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 7:49 PM Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines > >Down here in (ex) SP country they ALREADY are calling the UP that! > >Bill Daniels >Tucson AZ > >> Fred >> >>Apropos of nothing, please note the middle two letters of BNSF. Further, I >>predict any merger between the UP and CSX will be called "Union Pacific" >>except by CSX employees, who will call it "The Borg". Resistance is >futile. >> >>Rick Tipton >>Earth zulu minus five >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:07:51 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7b58eff4b99c2504dcb19604c19c2576 > >> The problem is not track capacity or track condition. The problem lies >with >> NS decision to transfer NS Chief Dispatchers into former CR dispatch >centers. > We DO know that most of the problems on the mainline are the direct result of irrational-approaching downright stupid dispatching decisions. Furthermore, while the ex-Conrail dispatchers continue to serve in their previous positions, we KNOW that they must run virtually all of their moves past someone "higher up;" the proverbial, "We'll see what THEY say" reply to any radio query. "THEY" are unquestionably NS people. And "their" ability to make the wrong decision consistently defies the odds. One would think the "law of averages" would make them "guess right" half of the time. But "dumb moves" are made fully 60-70% of the time, and that has been going on since June. When you constantly stack the trains on the mainline, and can't sort the cars in the yards, you have what Conrail has become--the proverbial "parking lot." Fred may very well be onto something here! and >ANTRAK's Eastbound Captitol Limited averages 6.5 hrs. late into Pgh >because >of congestion west of there. ALL of the Amtrak trains are running up to six hours late! Even people who love riding passenger trains are beginning to give up. If I were running the National Association of Railroad Passengers I would be filing the biggest class-action lawsuit in history against the NS. God knows if Janet Reno's Department of INjustice can file against something people WANT like Microsoft Corp., railroad passengers should file against something we DON'T NEED like NS! > >In an article last week in the Pgh Post-Gazette, it was interesting to >see >NS officials blame Hurricane Floyd's ravages, in part, for their failure >to >solve problems in PRR territory. There is an interesting piece of psychology going on here. People who cannot accept responsibility for their own actions invariably blame other people--even hurricans in this case. Just as NS likes "blaming" former Conrail employees for "laying down" (what else does one do on a train that can't go anywhere?), they blame a hurricane that never even came close to here for the problems that were already rampant before the hurricane ever developed in the ocean. These people just plain don't know how to run a modern, 21st century railroad. Conrail's record of moving freight with on-time, guaranteed delivery was virtually unsurpassed in the industry. And NS has for all practical purposes destroyed this great heritage with five continuing months of stand-still and chaos. And we're supposed to "like" them? > >This is just another symptom of the real problem: arrogance (see my >earlier >rant in list archives). That's the word which has reverberated throughout Conrail territory since spring--ARROGANCE. Not "confidence." ARROGANCE. They apparently believe they really know a better way to operate Conrail. Wonder what it is? God knows it can't be what they've been doing for the past five months! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:20:25 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 61b46e2198e3cce5a3a28f6322b5e7af RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > fredrea@juno.com writes: > > << Does this forebode a BNSFNS in the near future? Then, of course, UPCSX > would be soon there after. > Apropos of nothing, please note the middle two letters of BNSF. Further, I > predict any merger between the UP and CSX will be called "Union Pacific" > except by CSX employees, who will call it "The Borg". Resistance is futile. Further apropos of nothing (or would that be a-manque-de-propos ?), and venturing dangerously off topic, BNSF has been stated to stand for "Buy Norfolk Southern First". And I agree further that UP plus anything seems to be UP. But don't look for a transcon any time soon. CSX is being Conrailized quickly, as per the predictions of many pundits before the break-up. I suspect the same will happen to NS, eventually and more slowly. Just seems that the PRR main line can't be run well by guys accustomed to single track and passing sidings. (Ah, there! back on topic!) BNSF and UP would step into this only at their very great peril. But I also think that having only 2 national systems (or 2.5 if we count IC/GTW/CN) is not truly viable. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:37:54 EST Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a02bcb7b1e8b886cca0ed68716afe4ee Terry, I haven't heard the "nightmare" nickname yet, but I do enjoy calling their locomotives "rearing jackasses". The way NS does things is indeed a nightmare. Sorry for the off-topic posts, Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:44:44 EST Subject: [PRR] Homer and Antis in Altoona X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a9a032178a14e3c562642f1c130327bf I figured I would ask the PRR brain trust the following question: How did the interlockings at Homer and Antis get their perspective names? I figured ALTO got its name from Altoona, and Works got its name from its proximity to the Juniata Shops, but I can't figure out where Homer and Antis came from. Thanks, Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:15:01 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Cyanocrylate cement on HO scale crankpin screws X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d6980d27ea990e64809d81815ea831cc Hello list, As most of you probably know, when I build my Bowser steam locomotive kits, I use cyanocrylate adhesive (CA/ACC/super glue) to secure the crankpins once I have everything running smoothly after I've painted the rods and mechanism. Tonight, I had a lesson in humility, as I learned that there's such a thing as too much cement. My T1 shed a crankpin I'd forgotten to glue, so I decided to add glue without dropping the driver or dissasembling the forward mechanism. This was mistake number one; if you're going to do a job, do it right! I managed to plug the crankpin screw hole with super glue, and then wondered why I couldn't get the screw to seat properly. I tried sticking my 0-80 tap in there, and managed to strip a thread or two. Finally, after some choice words, I did the job right, disassembled the mechanism and dropped the driver set. I reamed the hole clear with an old paper clip, and then retapped the hole (fortunately for me, I'd only stripped a thread or two instead of the whole thing). Reassembly was straightforward, and my T1 is now behaving again. Word to the wise; go easy on this stuff; I was lucky, and barely escaped buying a new driver set. Of course, I could blame this on the T1 jinx (reliability being largely unavailable at any price on the prototype), but a little common sense and a little extra effort at the start would have saved me some frustration. Now, suitably humbled, I return to my E6s. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:21:25 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: eddbcd3a2350963fd4a93b0f3bd8b91e Hi, Sean... There's even more. In the main lobby of the Conway "Y" is a cartoon outline figure of "Nightmare" with a noose around his neck. "Worst case of suicide I've ever seen" is the caption, in newsprint lettering. You're not off-topic at all, Sean. Not when one of the country's finest rail operations is being destroyed before our eyes. At least I know now that my modeling efforts will end with the "late Conrail" timeframe. Terry -----Original Message----- From: Sean121982@aol.com To: tstuart@forcomm.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 10:26 PM Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines >Terry, > >I haven't heard the "nightmare" nickname yet, but I do enjoy calling their >locomotives "rearing jackasses". The way NS does things is indeed a nightmare. > >Sorry for the off-topic posts, > >Sean McDonnell > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:24:44 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 13688b71946ffd14686604ae02d2204a Just seems that the PRR main line can't be run well by guys accustomed to single track and passing sidings. Actually NS has accomplished that in a way. Since much of the Conrail system is actually two-track, realize that NS uses one track to RUN trains, and one track to PARK trains. And five months later, that's still about all they can do! -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej To: RickTipton@aol.com Cc: fredrea@juno.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 10:14 PM Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines >RickTipton@aol.com scribit: >> fredrea@juno.com writes: >> >> << Does this forebode a BNSFNS in the near future? Then, of course, UPCSX >> would be soon there after. > >> Apropos of nothing, please note the middle two letters of BNSF. Further, I >> predict any merger between the UP and CSX will be called "Union Pacific" >> except by CSX employees, who will call it "The Borg". Resistance is futile. > >Further apropos of nothing (or would that be a-manque-de-propos ?), and venturing >dangerously off topic, BNSF has been stated to stand for "Buy Norfolk Southern >First". And I agree further that UP plus anything seems to be UP. > >But don't look for a transcon any time soon. CSX is being Conrailized quickly, >as per the predictions of many pundits before the break-up. I suspect the same >will happen to NS, eventually and more slowly. Just seems that the PRR main >line can't be run well by guys accustomed to single track and passing sidings. >(Ah, there! back on topic!) BNSF and UP would step into this only at their >very great peril. > >But I also think that having only 2 national systems (or 2.5 if we count IC/GTW/CN) >is not truly viable. > >-- >Mark > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Homer and Antis in Altoona Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:02:19 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0bf88af64286f8f49e0651b92d944b1c Sean121982@aol.com scribit: > > I figured I would ask the PRR brain trust the following question: How did the > interlockings at Homer and Antis get their perspective names? I figured ALTO > got its name from Altoona, and Works got its name from its proximity to the > Juniata Shops, but I can't figure out where Homer and Antis came from. Not sure about HOMER. ANTIS is from Antis Township. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:09:24 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2ad121eeaac66870d1085d9ceee1e322 Yeah, I'm afraid the Thoroughbred has pulled up lame! But OTOH the SP/RGW merger went well, as did BNSF as far as I know, so mega mergers don't appear to have to be bad. But we sure refuse to learn from the past! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: Sean121982@aol.com To: RickTipton@aol.com ; fredrea@juno.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 8:06 PM Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines >Remember what BNSF really stands for: "Buy Norfolk Southern First". I have >heard that the BNSF is interested in buying NS if things don't improve within >a year. But with the way the last 2 megamergers have gone (UP/SP and >CR/CSX/NS), I doubt that the STB will approve any more megamergers anytime >soon. I'm still holding on to the faint hope that the STB will step in and >start operating NS's portion of CR separately until NS gets their act >together (if that ever happens). In my humble opinion, it's time to put "The >Thoroughbred" out to pasture. > >Sean McDonnell > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:33:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Homer and Antis in Altoona X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1e2f07c4eedb7bbfb1ffb14c302bdc9e Let me put my thinking cap on. I predict Dan Cupper will be the final authority. But, Antis is named for Antis Township which lies east of Altoona near Bellwood, Pa. Homer, I know, was a reference to Homer Hump in the old westbound Altoona receiving yard days which ceased operations around 1957. Homer interlocking is a relatively recent (last 10 years) connection to the old PRR passenger main from Rose Yard in Juniata. Dave Seidel Altoona ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] Renovo News Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:31:32 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5f7584419a89b5a66805ee960a542860 Dad came down on Sunday and we spent the whole afternoon talking about what you guys were looking for and then about the whole railroading area in general. He is going back up to Renovo on Thursday and is going to get in touch with a couple of friends that use to work in the shops in Renovo and Altoona and ask them some of your questions. If anyone has anymore let me know for we will be together on Thanksgiving and then Christmas so I should be able to keep on top of the info for you. I am hoping to get back up home myself the second week of December, if I do I will get some pictures and post for the group. Here is your info so far: 1. The coal tower has a tank on the side of it. The tank had sand in it and was pressurized. This was where the sand came from for the steam engines. Directly underneath the tower, a coal car would come in and dump there contents. Then the little buggy would be filled and would go tot the top to drop the coal into the hold. Dad says that they were able to keep different grades of coal and sizes.There were four chutes for delivering the coal to the tenders. Just to the left of the coal tower if you were looking east is where they would bring the engines in and dump there fire and ash pans. It was a pit that was always filled with water. A gantry crane would travel the length of the pit to empty the ash into waiting gondolas or hoppers. What ever they had available at the time. 2. The coals wharf was used up until about 1945. In around that time they built the coal tower. It is the only thing left standing today with the exception of the engine house and shops. 3. The turntable was in existence up until they shut down Renovo operations. It was a typical open pit single bearing turntable. if you have a picture of the shops, the long building running parallel to Erie Ave was were they worked on rebuilding stem engines, the first building perpendicular to the engine bay was were the tenders were worked on. The building along the mountain was there power plant. the next building in was there foundry. The buildings laying between the transfer table were the car shops and passenger repair shops. 4. Dennis the picture of your two milk cars was a normal and very often occurrence for the railroad. The cars came from Sheffield Pa and were on there way to Borden Milk Plant. Not quite sure which one though. The special couplers were to prevent uncoupling if there was a derailment. Very odd though, at that time, 1920's to 1950's, they had such progressive protection for milk but the shelf couplers for today's tankers did not become the standard till the 70's. They had no markings on them except car status and were painted PRR Red. Milk production was a big user of the railroad, a daily occurrence. 5. The ice house was in operation till the early 1960's. There are still timetables showing icing operations as late as 1959,1960. I will get a more definitive date on it when I talk to my uncle. The icehouse was in the west yard up along side the mountain. There was a spring from the mountain that fed the water for its operation. The ice was brought up out of the ice house to the wooden platform and was moved by a chain that had spikes or teeth in it. There were three or four spots that the ice was delivered to on the platform. An interesting way that they determined whether a car needed iced was almost all produce that was shipped through Renovo had bananas in its consist. The man responsible for icing operations would open up a crate break a banana in half and put a thermometer in it. If the temperature was not right he would have the cars cut and moved over to be iced. When finished icing they would be spotted onto the next train that was leaving. 6. The stock pens in Renovo were very small and there were two of them. The size was about 40'X40'. There was no barn associated with it and they would spot the cars, empty the animals, let them drink and whatever eat then pack them back up. Very quick neat and short. Dad remembers caused he played there. 7. Now for modeling the area. I would start at Keating Summit, have a siding with two tracks for engines to be held from shoving up the grade and dynamic braking down the grade into Emporium. Model the interchange at Emporium, just a wye could do with a couple of sidings. This is where the PRR branches north to Buffalo and east to Erie. There was originally an engine house and turntable with a small yard. The next spot coming east would be Driftwood, model as an interchange. Two tracks swung south to go Altoona, this was called the low-grade. Next would come Keating, model this as a wye also, here is where the New York Central would leave the PRR mainline and continue on to Clearfield. Also the railroad from Emporium to Keating traveled along the Sinnemhoning Creek, at Keating it meets the Susquehanna River. Continue east and the next area to model would be a siding called Cooks Run. Here the railroad shoved hopper cars up to have them loaded with coal and also have coal washed. This existed into the 80's. Next would come the town of Westport. Here have three through sidings parallel to the mainline. Coal was loaded here from the nearby mountains. A lot of coal was brought out of here. Next came Durys Run which was the western end of the yard limit for Renovo. Then comes Renovo with its classification yard and any other operations that you wish to model. The town structures were very interesting if you wish to detail some of them to. The eastern yard limit was Farwell. There were three tracks on the eastern end of the yard and two on the western end.Here the mainline continued onto Lock Haven. With the exception of two important sidings for holding trains nothing else happened till Lock Haven. Lock Haven can be modeled as an interchange with the line that goes to Tyrone. You can also put in a classification yard though not as expansive as Renovo for it would handle cutting for local traffic only. Lock Haven did take a lot of Refer business here. Continuing on south between Lock Haven and Jersey Shore have the New York Central break off on its own trackage to Jersey Shore. Here their tracks continue on the opposite side of the river and at Jersey Shore they would move their head end power from one end to the other so that they can take there train up Pine Creek to Wellsboro and on to Corning New York. The Erie Railroad would also come down this way to Newberry Jct. You can then model the PRR from Jersey to Williamsport ending with the passenger station there that they used to have to shove back there consist. Use Newberry Junction as the stop for freight. Here you could model four interchanges of railroads. The , PRR, NYC, Reading, Erie. The entire mainline from Wiiliamsport to Buffalo was two tracked. Today it is single track with passing sidings CTC out of Pittsburgh. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:54:04 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] New MT coil-elliptical trucks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e3b674e5822ea95a7940b49146a89487 Dennis, They are Pennsy's 2D-F12 trucks. The coil and eliptic (leaf) springs were arranged either way without much thought to which side they were on in relation to each other from one truck to another. Most photos of the X32b cars show them with trucks having the "leaf left" build-up. Have a look at the photos in both the April and the October 1990 Mainline Modeler. The main reason for this arrangement was to reduce/eliminate the harmonic oscillations by using the uneven damping affect of the coil and the eliptic springs. I can't attest to the "high speed" capability mentioned in the photo caption (which one?)--actually, there are a couple of photos in Vol 1 of that Color Guide showing these trucks, two of which are on X31A cars on page 77, and also an X32B on page 38, but have no mention of high speed trucks. These were used on quite a few other PRR cars, though most were later refurbished with all coil springs. Also, if I remember correctly, many of the General American/Evans "DF" (Damage Free) cars were delivered with the same sideframe design--not sure of the tonnage rating. Chuck Dennis Rockwell wrote: > On 7 Nov, Chuck Friedlein wrote: > > > The tooling is all new and they used PRR plans for them. > > Great! Now, the next questions are, what's the Pennsy name > for this truck, and for what cars is this truck appropriate > for in the 1954 time frame? > > Personally, lacking anything better, this is now the truck > of choice for all of my 50-ton PRR rolling stock. I would > assume, however, that this wouldn't be the closest available > N Scale truck for all such rolling stock. Too much of my > photo evidence is out of my modelling period for me to be > sure about such things. For instance, the caption under the > only photo in the PRR Color Guide Vol 1 that clearly has a > similar truck in it says that they're special high-speed > trucks. > > Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA > > Boxcars, flat cars, going-to-North Platte cars... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:04:19 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] keystones / cabin cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b5ae25296b7f14fd121c596e0f3fbcea Hi all, please allow a PRR-fan from overseas to ask some questions you might think below the level of your normal talk. I would also appreciate hints for books and literature available today (not necesserily TRAINS and Kalmbach books, as I am a Trains Magazine subscriber since some years). Here the questions: 1) Keystones I cannot imagine the change from circle keystone to shadow keystone on freight cars and cabin cars to be done in a short time span (1954). How long would cars with circle keystone or even without any have circulated? I guess the new emblem might have been applied during routine overhauls. 2) Cabin cars Can you enlighten me about the scheme cabin cars were assigned to trains? Did they follow a freight train from one region into another, or from yard to yard, or any other method? I.e., is it possible to find cabin cars from various regions in one yard in the east? I bought recently some Bowser kits, and like them very much. They are lettered for Philadalphia region, but I also have one for Buckeye (purchased in Columbus OH during a short stay early October). For what time and lines antennas on the cabin cars would be mandatory? Best regards and thanks in advance for any help, Burkhard Sanner Germany P.S. I find the PRR-list a phantastic source of information. Listening to your bringing up answers to even very exotic topics and digging up memories is fascinating. I also am highly interested in the fate of ex-PRR lines today, as those are the ones I still can visit and railfan... For me, the NS thread is far from being off topic!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:14:15 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Troubles on the former PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b427dbcd93147a49d64867bbfe4d60e8 Lest we forget (or never knew).... Yes, I'm surprised when I see trains sitting on the old PRR main near Latrobe. (Maybe its due to the tie replacement work, maybe due to operational screw-up). Some point to the past, saying "It worked better then. Why can't these @#$% idiots do as well?" In the summer of 1963, I walked the old Ridgway & Clearfield, the PRR Ridgway Branch, from Brockway to Ridgway. A half-mile north of Brockway I came on a culvert which was plugged. The little stream had flooded the ditches for a couple hundred feet and water had been seeping across the track for so long that there was a luxuriant growth of sphagnum moss hiding the ties and rails, if there were any ties. The rails had cut/crushed deep grooves into the moss as they deflected under the weight of trains. Yes, trains. A couple miles out of town, I had to step aside for an F unit pulling a couple of empty hoppers and a boxcar toward Brockway and toward the accident-waiting-to-happen. Grass and weeds and trees were growing right up to the track, and one could clearly see the AAR clearance diagram worn into the vegetation. Some years later, in 1975, Erie-Lackawanna was going to move their last coal train out of Brockway before shutting down the line. In commemoration, they used their red white and blue Bicentennial unit. The party was spoiled when, while sitting there waiting to depart the next morning, 150 feet of rail fell over under the coal train. It is easy to forget how bloody awful the railroads had become in the 60's and 70's. There were reasonable people who were speculating that the day of the railroad had passed, that even if money could be found, there weren't enough rolling mills to make the rails needed, that all was in a downward spiral from which there was no escape. Conrail (albeit with piles of government money) and others, including NS, showed that there was a way out and we have benefited from it. Cut these guys some slack. Things have been worse, things will get better. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:22:18 -0500 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Homer and Antis in Altoona X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 70c8635c09b05b564443f2871ce9270f Greetings to Sean and the group, As for ANTIS, it is located in Antis Township, Blair County. However, I don't know who or what Antis Township is named after. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 09:44 PM 11/08/1999 EST, Sean121982@aol.com wrote: >I figured I would ask the PRR brain trust the following question: How did the >interlockings at Homer and Antis get their perspective names? I figured ALTO >got its name from Altoona, and Works got its name from its proximity to the >Juniata Shops, but I can't figure out where Homer and Antis came from. > >Thanks, > >Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Miracle Castings Inc." Subject: [PRR] NS problems Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:24:07 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fe76bae5011b88fb26337d6dde35b77f Fred Rea wrote: >Does this forebode a BNSFNS in the near future? Then, of course, UPCSX >would be soon there after. This probably wouldn't be a bad thing. Canada has had a couple of true transcontinental railways for a lot of years, and it does have it's advantages. Pat Lawless ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:30:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Troubles on the former PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 89746823392f409201fb1b35d12410dd In a message dated 11/9/99 7:18:36 AM Central Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << It is easy to forget how bloody awful the railroads had become in the 60's and 70's. There were reasonable people who were speculating that the day of the railroad had passed, that even if money could be found, there weren't enough rolling mills to make the rails needed, that all was in a downward spiral from which there was no escape. Conrail (albeit with piles of government money) and others, including NS, showed that there was a way out and we have benefited from it. Cut these guys some slack. Things have been worse, things will get better. >> Well put. Not a Pennsy line , but in 1974-76, a typical large power transformer shipment from Allis-Chalmers in West Allis, WI , derailed on the average at least once and some up to three times before it got out of Milwaukee (We had to take them back and reinspect, etc, each time) on Milwaukee Road or C&NW. In 1973-74, if you stood on the platform at Paoli awaiting an MU train and a freight came by on the outside mains, you stood back as far as you could, watching the cars oscillate wildly back and forth on track with tie plates with as few as one spike each. And a night in a roomette on the Pennsylvania Limited from Chicago to Pittsburgh in 1970 was like being thrown about in a large industrial tumbling machine for 9 hours, the track was so bad. By contrast, videos of Conrail I took in 1992-4 showed a gradual shift from a few slightly rusty road units to units which looked almost like they had just been painted and waxed. Trackwork is in much better condition. And, once you get over the initial fact of government intervention, don't forget Conrail was a private corporation during most of the improvement phase. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:41:43 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 802a1683c22fcc9d05f80493fcb95801 Or you could go to http://www.bluemoon.net/user/msrr.html and see what the LAST railroad in the US will look like... On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 RickTipton@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 11/8/99 12:54:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, >fredrea@juno.com writes: > ><< Does this forebode a BNSFNS in the near future? Then, of course, UPCSX > would be soon there after. > > Fred >> >Apropos of nothing, please note the middle two letters of BNSF. Further, I >predict any merger between the UP and CSX will be called "Union Pacific" >except by CSX employees, who will call it "The Borg". Resistance is futile. > >Rick Tipton >Earth zulu minus five > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "velure" Subject: [PRR] p-mikey??? Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:31:36 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6b68baede648aad8896fa7394e44e4c3 i have film footage that is simply titled "derailment on the p-mikey" i believe this is the pittsburgh and mckeesport railroad. did this railroad exist, or was it a part of the PRR? the derailment is in everson, pa where it crossed the B&O and PRR on a double diamond and then ended in what appears to be a transfer yard. the film footage is shot from a second story window overlooking the yard and down to the derailment. the yard is full of coal to be transformed into coke a few miles away along the PRR to connellsville. did the p-mikey exsist...if so, is there any info on this railroad? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 11:38:36 -0500 From: hosam Subject: [PRR] LAST RAILROAD was NS problems w/ PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 05c86b6e0a3b71e85700e145abf36414 At 10:41 AM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote: > > >Or you could go to http://www.bluemoon.net/user/msrr.html and see what the >LAST railroad in the US will look like... > Good Morning, Great pictures but I suspect that will never happen and here are my reasons: With the trend towards mega-mergers railroads are on the way to becoming one. As with all mergers there are problems getting the new organization to function smoothly. This gives our government an opportunity to pass new laws, either punitive or tax, which only contributes to more inefficiency in the new organization. Where will this lead? To gridlock of course! Well the Federal goverment will not allow this to happen, no sir, they will simply nationalize the rails in the nations interest. No matter that there is no international crisis, the reasoning will be in ther national interest. Why, all commodities must be delivered or all our ports will fillup with containers from other nations. Unless these containers are delivered on time, economic impacts on the developing nations will create an international crisis. Now the goverment can act!! Congress will meet and develop the necessary plan of action for this takeover. As with all Federal endeavors everything will be renamed to suit the goverments penchant for acronyms. Following is a short list of proposed acronyms for rail use: Engines will be Mobile Unit Diesel or MUD Track will be Fixed Unit Rail or FUR Highway crossings will be Sites of Potential Accidents or SAP Derailments will be Not On Track or NOT Engineers will be Drivers of Large Locomotives or DOLL Fatalaties will be Dead As Doornail or DAD The Railroad will be United States Goverment or USG, which will quickly be tagged by the pundits as "Unreliable, Slow and Goverment operated. Newspaper headlines concerning an accident where a truck strikes a train might read: "USG DOLL reports MUD & FUR flew @ SAP, no DAD but NOT". Of course there will be no newspapers but these events will be reported on the internet "The McRail Report". This is similar to the renowned "Drudge Report". Some of this reporting is currently available on the Railroad talk list. Further developments will lead to the States operating parts of the rail system under lease from the Goverment. This would cause the rolling stock and engines operated this way to be labeled State Leased Under Goverment. Pundits will be quick to tag the system as "Slow Late Unreliable Goverment" After painting all leased equipment with the initials "SLUG", some astute Congressman will propose a new bill to rename the system. The running joke of the time will be : The Boss "I see you are on time for work today" to which the Employee replies "Yes I walked into town rather than take the SLUG". Rather than continue this abuse the Goverment will levy a new tax to fund the States repainting cost. The new equipment will be known as United Goverment Lease Yearly or UGLY....... Well I could go on for hours but I hear the Feds knocking on my door now. Take care, hosam(S.A. McCall) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:02:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER: Please Kill MegaMergers Thread From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 18a7e49d2f92cbd9366c0542b1ced6f1 Please cease the thread on megamergers (BNSFNS, etc.). It's relevance to this list dies many, many posts ago. This list does concern itself with the PRR's legacy lines, as they relate to former PRR rights-of-way, etc., but to stretch that to what the successor's successor's successor is doing administratively/operationally is going a bit too far. I would allow such a thread to continue on my Conrail-talk list, but it would actually be more appropriate for a Norfolk Southern list...if there is one. (If not, I'd be glad to set one up!) Thanks a bunch! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 12:43:49 EST Subject: [PRR] ALTO & ATOONA X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0cd987024ee47720c7a0e19b8f35109d In a message dated 11/8/99 10:11:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, Sean121982@aol.com writes: << I figured ALTO got its name from Altoona, >> Actually, it was the other way around: The PRR designated it's staging area, below the summit, as "ALTO" and the town of Altoona grew up around it Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] LAST RAILROAD was NS problems w/ PRR lines Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 09:55:18 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: da2b8cb895795de6256048df6ad38e35 > ---------- > From: hosam[SMTP:hosam@amaze.net] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 8:38 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] LAST RAILROAD was NS problems w/ PRR lines > > At 10:41 AM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Or you could go to http://www.bluemoon.net/user/msrr.html and see what > the > >LAST railroad in the US will look like... > > > I got a good chuckle out of that. Not at all what I was expecting. Employed by that last railroad, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:45:10 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] Re: Troubles on the PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3a18c30fc984be11dc3c18c61fca328c Hello list: I have been following the current thread on then vs. now regarding operating conditions with great interest. I have long been curious about how decisions were made to maintain or not to maintain, above and beyond the normal constraints of falling income. But one thing that played a big part in the "old PRR's" situation that was quite absent from latter-day Conrail was the sheer magnitude of property to maintain, a situation which grew even more acute after the 1968 merger. More than just pumping money into the enterprise, government intervention in the form of deregulation, and the mandating of route shrinkage (remember the term "rationalization?"), gave Conrail an almost unbelieveable advantage over the Pennsylvania. And that same advantage was eventually transferred to the likes of NS and UP, et al. Less track to maintain meant being able to put more in what remained. Today, even so-called branches--which in the early 1960s would have been rickety, to say the least--are usually well maintained and impressive to see. Now, I have a question: Given the poor condition of the track superstructure itself in, say, 1960; how much more serious was the condition of the subgrade? The rampant foliage which often could be so dense as to obscure the rails certainly was as much a symptom as a sight. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 12:54:53 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] p-mikey??? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 48244fbad0aeb4a74d56272ab7dd5191 velure wrote: > i have film footage that is simply titled "derailment on the p-mikey" i > believe this is the pittsburgh and mckeesport railroad. did this railroad > exist, or was it a part of the PRR? It was the Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youghiogheny ( the P-Mickey), a Vanderbilt line and part of the P&LE system (virtually its line east of Pittsburgh, I believe). Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:16:23 EST Subject: Re: vck@andrew.cmu.edu: Re: [PRR] NS problems w/ PRR lines X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: af63793e90df1ad21e27b5afd45d31cd In a message dated 99-11-08 21:55:42 EST, tstuart@forcomm.net writes: > They apparently believe they really know a better way to operate Conrail. > I don't think CR could have been run any better than it was. With on-time percentages consistently in the high 90s, what was there to change? The railroad got the job done correctly and on time. I don't think there is a better way to do things. Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 19:04:32 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] keystones / cabin cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d4db28122cae3a0368d5c9be5e36b65d --Boundary_(ID_OpHLivD18zsWM2wJ9kUpBQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Burkhard and the list, To cite but one example, on page 60 of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment is an H33 covered hopper pictured on December 28, 1974. It is still in the circle Keystone scheme, albeit heavily weathered. You can run the Circle Keystone cars past the unfortunate demise of the PRR in 1968 and not worry about it too much (though a whole fleet still in the circle Keystone scheme would be inappropriate). As far as books and literature, it depends on what you want. I love steam engines and passenger trains; I consider Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, Hirsimaki's Black Gold-Black Diamonds, and Morning Sun's Pennsy Steam Years II to be the best general works on the subject of steam power. Morning Sun has a six book series on PRR's diesel years, five of which are still available from the publisher. Other books may have great pictures and questionable text (The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 comes to mind). As far as the cabin car question, I'm as clueless as the next person. Perhaps we can enlist Dan Cupper or Rick Tipton to clarify things. Doug Burkhard Sanner wrote: > Hi all, > > please allow a PRR-fan from overseas to > ask some questions you might think below > the level of your normal talk. I would also > appreciate hints for books and literature > available today (not necesserily TRAINS > and Kalmbach books, as I am a Trains > Magazine subscriber since some years). > > Here the questions: > > 1) Keystones > I cannot imagine the change from circle > keystone to shadow keystone on freight > cars and cabin cars to be done in a short > time span (1954). How long would cars > with circle keystone or even without any > have circulated? I guess the new emblem > might have been applied during routine > overhauls. > > 2) Cabin cars > Can you enlighten me about the scheme > cabin cars were assigned to trains? Did > they follow a freight train from one region > into another, or from yard to yard, or any > other method? I.e., is it possible to find > cabin cars from various regions in one > yard in the east? > I bought recently some Bowser kits, and > like them very much. They are lettered > for Philadalphia region, but I also have > one for Buckeye (purchased in Columbus > OH during a short stay early October). > For what time and lines antennas on the > cabin cars would be mandatory? > > Best regards and thanks in advance > for any help, > > Burkhard Sanner > Germany > > P.S. I find the PRR-list a phantastic source > of information. Listening to your bringing up > answers to even very exotic topics and > digging up memories is fascinating. I also > am highly interested in the fate of ex-PRR > lines today, as those are the ones I still can > visit and railfan... For me, the NS thread > is far from being off topic!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_OpHLivD18zsWM2wJ9kUpBQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Burkhard and the list,

To cite but one example, on page 60 of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment is an H33 covered hopper pictured on December 28, 1974.  It is still in the circle Keystone scheme, albeit heavily weathered.  You can run the Circle Keystone cars past the unfortunate demise of the PRR in 1968 and not worry about it too much (though a whole fleet still in the circle Keystone scheme would be inappropriate).

As far as books and literature, it depends on what you want.  I love steam engines and passenger trains; I consider Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, Hirsimaki's Black Gold-Black Diamonds, and Morning Sun's Pennsy Steam Years II to be the best general works on the subject of steam power.  Morning Sun has a six book series on PRR's diesel years, five of which are still available from the publisher.  Other books may have great pictures and questionable text (The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4 comes to mind).

As far as the cabin car question, I'm as clueless as the next person.  Perhaps we can enlist Dan Cupper or Rick Tipton to clarify things.

Doug

Burkhard Sanner wrote:

Hi all,

please allow a PRR-fan from overseas to
ask some questions you might think below
the level of your normal talk. I would also
appreciate hints for books and literature
available today (not necesserily TRAINS
and Kalmbach books, as I am a Trains
Magazine subscriber since some years).

Here the questions:

1) Keystones
I cannot imagine the change from circle
keystone to shadow keystone on freight
cars and cabin cars to be done in a short
time span (1954). How long would cars
with circle keystone or even without any
have circulated? I guess the new emblem
might have been applied during routine
overhauls.

2) Cabin cars
Can you enlighten me about the scheme
cabin cars were assigned to trains? Did
they follow a freight train from one region
into another, or from yard to yard, or any
other method? I.e., is it possible to find
cabin cars from various regions in one
yard in the east?
I bought recently some Bowser kits, and
like them very much. They are lettered
for Philadalphia region, but I also have
one for Buckeye (purchased in Columbus
OH during a short stay early October).
For what time and lines antennas on the
cabin cars would be mandatory?

Best regards and thanks in advance
for any help,

Burkhard Sanner
Germany

P.S. I find the PRR-list a phantastic source
of information. Listening to your bringing up
answers to even very exotic topics and
digging up memories is fascinating. I also
am highly interested in the fate of ex-PRR
lines today, as those are the ones I still can
visit and railfan... For me, the NS thread
is far from being off topic!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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--Boundary_(ID_OpHLivD18zsWM2wJ9kUpBQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 20:48:39 +0000 From: Albert Alecknavage II Subject: [PRR] C&PD Trip Info Request X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5c3f909f23a9004ef0b0c8575bb5ceb5 Greetings to the list. This weekend, I am to travel with friends along the Pennsy's (now NS') Columbia & Port Deposit Branch. This is our first foray into the area to investigate the PRR heritage of this line, and we could use some help. Our "tour" will begin in Perryville, MD and proceed north to Columbia, PA. My limited knowledge of the "Port Road" includes vague memories of the inaccessibility of the line. Can anyone who is more familiar with it offer tips to us regarding: * How to access the tunnels (Stewart, Frazier, & Wildcat). * How to access the three creek flumes above the right-of-way. * The hydroelectric dams: scenic or not? * What is the name of the area where the C&PD and the Atglen & Susquehanna come together on two parallel, split-level bridges? * Any other spots that are of scenic interest--whether a train shows up in the shot is nice, but not essential. * General info on NS daylight traffic there--if any! Thanks in advance for any help you can give to a Port Road novice. Albert Alecknavage II ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "George N Pierson" Subject: [PRR] Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:10:06 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 054d7ffa2cb691bb3433b9d83504d880 Hi, all, I recently received a mailing from Penn Valley Pictures on some of their new videos (the Clarence Weaver material). I was wondering if anyone out there has seen vol. 7, Steam in the 30's and 40's or vol. 8. I'd like a brief review before ordering. Thanks! George N. Pierson e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:59:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] keystones / cabin cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 89ad6db66b0d987a4381af67823f7183 Burkhard and all, I think if you have time to search through Jerry Britton's Cabin Car data base you may find your answer. You will find not only the car's assignment but how it was equipped (with or without antenna masts). You'll be able to locate cars in the area you seek to model (correct car #s). The more you use this tool the more aware you'll become of how the P Co. used their cars. I'm interested in modeling the Pennsy in Wellsville, Ohio. I've been able to locate all the cars assigned to Wellsville Yard, their prototype numbers, equipment, and which were held for work train assigments or locals. Just an amazing amount of information for your enjoyment. Generally I found the newer Cabins (N-8s, N-5Cs and N-5Bs) were assigned to "pool" service, in my case out of Conway Yard (the world's largest push button yard, in it's time). I could check Mingo Jct. and so on to see what else was being used near by. There is no certain date for this roster but, we believe it represents the late 1950's. Have a look and prepare to stay a while. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:00:51 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] p-mikey??? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 389431e410218e37eb15c621ec2c2a3c The P, McK&Y. ran from Connelsville, Pa to about Mckeesport where it tied to the P&LE main running from Pittsburgh to Brownsville, Pa. It had connections at the B&O's Connellsville yard and also across the river with the Western Maryland. Even into the 80's the Pmickey's passenger depot still existed at South Connellsville. The passenger platforms sat on top of the depot since it was elevated, definitely a strange sight. I think WM also used this depot. Connellsville was heaven for rail fans. Here's the roads that entered Connelsville : Pittsburgh & West Virginia( now N&W) B&O Western Maryland Pennsylvania P, McK&Y (ran by P&LE) N&W had trackage rights on the B&O to Hagerstown since the B&O gutted the WM,in the 70's, once used by the P&WV. This was at one time the old Alpha jet route: Eastbound NKP>W&LE>P&WV>WM>(Reading?)>(CRRofJ?) You eastern guys can pick up the chime from here. Steve Long Richard Wallis wrote: > velure wrote: > > > i have film footage that is simply titled "derailment on the p-mikey" i > > believe this is the pittsburgh and mckeesport railroad. did this railroad > > exist, or was it a part of the PRR? > > It was the Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youghiogheny ( the P-Mickey), a Vanderbilt > line and part of the P&LE system (virtually its line east of Pittsburgh, I > believe). > > Richard Wallis > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:02:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [CR] C&PD Trip Info Request X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 598d2c3e42ebd2196a1f01e3f6ce0297 In a message dated 99-11-09 20:53:16 EST, you write: > * What is the name of the area where the C&PD and the Atglen & Susquehanna > come together on two parallel, split-level bridges? I think this site is located in Safe Harbor, PA. Sean McDonnell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) p-micky? Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:10:10 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 53d5ee5e4a8318767af173e5083cb053 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF2AF6.CE434620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, Is this possibly the PC&Y (Pittsburgh, Chartiers and Youghiogheny) that = maintains an interchange with the P&LE at McKeesRocks? If so, then they = are very much alive! However, the map supplied with "The Pennsy In The = Steel City", by PRRT&HS, clearly shows this road crossing the P&LE main = at McKees Rocks, following Chartiers Creek southerly and = interchanging with the Pennsy at Scully Yard. Might the handle P-Micky = refer to Pittsburgh-McKeesrocks? I don't rightly know, I could be wrong. Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF2AF6.CE434620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,
Is this possibly the PC&Y = (Pittsburgh,=20 Chartiers and Youghiogheny) that maintains an interchange with the = P&LE at=20 McKeesRocks? If so, then they are very much alive! However, the map = supplied=20 with "The Pennsy In The Steel City", by PRRT&HS, clearly shows this = road=20 crossing the P&LE main at McKees Rocks, following Chartiers Creek = southerly=20 and <gasp> interchanging with the Pennsy at Scully Yard. Might the = handle=20 P-Micky refer = to Pittsburgh-McKeesrocks?=20 I don't rightly know, I could be wrong.
 
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BF2AF6.CE434620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:16:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] p-mikey??? Pee- Mickey-Why (P.Mc.& Y.) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2ba65263749e76a0e9c2c415e432cf33 Steve and all, The railroad was very real indeed. The Pittsburgh, McKeesport & Youghiogheny. My Grandfather refered to it as the "Pee Mickey Why" or P.Mc.& Y. The Tichy rebuilt USRA car was supposed to be a P.Mc.& Y car, NYC system of course. Mainline Modeler Magazine ran an article and photos years ago. Richard Hendrickson built up the car for Model Railroading magazine about the same time. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:25:03 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] keystones / cabin cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 596a4a49149476ce3e4bcb997e563a88 A couple of things I've picked up from previous postings to this list and in readings in printed matter: Many cabins were assigned to specific crews (possibly based on the conductor) and, therefore, would not have ventured outside of that crew's assigned territory. A searchable database on Jerry's Keystone Crossings from the 1950s shows how cabins were assigned to specific yards throughout the system, sometimes to specific runs. Other cabins were assigned to pool service, which meant that they were not necessarily dedicated to specific crews ... different color cupolas signified E-W or N-S direction of flow, but I don't recall which color went with which cardinal direction. As to paint schemes, there are several excellent cabin car illustrations from various periods from late-steam thru pre-merger in _Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads_, Caboose Data Book, No. 2, published by NJ International, Inc., 77 W. Nicholai St., Hicksville, NY 11801, in 1988. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:34:25 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] p-mikey??? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 400af842dc648f07fedc900d8e1b2aa9 > into the 80's the Pmickey's passenger depot still existed at South Connellsville. > Still standing, although the viaduct was removed. >I think WM also used this depot. Correct. It was basically the end of the WM's Connellsville Extension (from Cumberland), but I understand that WM freight trains also ran west to a junction with the P&WV before N&W took control of that line, even though the terminal was at BOWEST Jct a little ways to the east. > Pennsylvania According to an employee of the general contracting firm that occupies the open land just to the west of the old P&LE (Pmickey) station, the dark red hip roofed station that sits along the highway was the PRR's station. 'best, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:27:07 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 714954242055d584ccc7ad20a142fa99 I really liked Steam in the 30's and 40's - one of their better tapes in the Pennsy series IMHO. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Division WWII -----Original Message----- From: George N Pierson To: prr Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 9:01 PM Subject: [PRR] >Hi, all, > >I recently received a mailing from Penn Valley Pictures on some of their new >videos (the Clarence Weaver material). I was wondering if anyone out there >has seen vol. 7, Steam in the 30's and 40's or vol. 8. I'd like a brief >review before ordering. Thanks! > >George N. Pierson >e-mail: george.pierson@trnty.edu > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Stoneworks Kit From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:40:26 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d274a72b378bc8321b5a1b244b386e82 At a local swap meet I had the chance to pick up the Model Railroad Stoneworks 30^ Angle Skewed Stone Arch Bridge 2 Arches 2 Tracks. My question is there anything little tips I should know putting the kit together and is it a difficult kit to build? Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:17:13 -0500 From: jpbtrans Subject: [PRR] Peoria Division X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0a986823c249eac8df4ebeb958acad39 Gentlemen, You have both been a great help to my research. I do have a few more questions, if I may. 1. The coal mine at Lovington. When did it close? What was the capacity of the trackage there? 2. What type of industrial base did Decatur have, other then agriculture? 3. Was Decatur an important enough point to warrent its own switch engine or two, for the local work or did each train do its own. 4. Was there any passenger traffic on the branch at any time? 5. Would the Peoria branch have been viable in 1965? 6. Any other information you may have would be welcome. I'am not picky, I just want it all!!! Thank you again for the help. Jon Anderson (jpbtrans@gateway.net) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:29:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Homer and Antis in Altoona X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9ba2fc3b05a649aae17bcb28b6e38afc " HOMER " I think was the latter name for the former " WJ ", which was the stone hump tower over the main line at MP 233.0. Homer Gap run ran under the main just east of the tunnel where " WJ " was located so it seems that when they went from the old call letters to the named towers this was called " HOMER " do to its close proximity to Homer Gap Run. " ANTIS " being in Antis Twp. The area behind ANTIS is called Pinecroft and since there is a "PINE" on the Buffalo Line, it seems that they chose ANTIS over using PINE being that they would not be that far apart. Pat ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:40:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTO & ATOONA X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d24901ddeed1c314c9e7400a5e65057e When did ALTO get its name change from JK. Seems like the towers got their call letters way back when the PENNSY cut its R/W over the mountains. To me ALTOONA came about when the RR bought the old Robinson farm then started to lay out the town that it has become. ALTO came into being 100 plus years later. Pat ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:10:56 EST Subject: [PRR] Baltimore track pans X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c376a65aa67c5b281e4703c2ef79d2d8 Rereading Pennypackers M1 article in a 1979 Trains. He mentions track pans being in place at Baltimore. How late were these in service and does anyone know an exact location? Thnaks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:36:24 -0600 From: rboydrrs@inlink.com (Robert A. Boyd) Subject: [PRR] re: troubles on the old PRR X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c1d92d82c31196e56f4703a822ad1769 Been following the commentary about how NS seems to be having financial problems lately, perhaps as a result of the Conrail takeover? If I recall, wasn't their portion of the ex-CR supposed to be organized as a separate paper entity called Pennsylvania Railroad? Ya know, we might be looking at the paper entity taking over NS to bail them out of trouble - but then, that would make PRR a primarily north-south system. I'll bet the shades that haunt Mt Royal Station must be having a good laugh. The mind boggles-- :-}> Bob Robert A. Boyd ======== Those Classic Trains "Beginning A Century-long Tradition Of Fine Modelmaking" "The Limited" On Line - The Golden Age Of Railroad Passenger Service http://www.thoseclassictrains.com history - technology - modeling - sources Classified Ads - Bubba's Web Resources - and Psycho too! ======== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FarbLand@aol.com Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:59:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Renovo News X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 66133c531fdb7070cbb25269a55b6b58 In a message dated 11/9/99 12:48:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, 102016.1343@worldnet.att.net writes: > Dennis the picture of your two milk cars was a normal and very often > occurrence for the railroad. The cars came from Sheffield Pa and were on > there way to Borden Milk Plant. Not quite sure which one though. This is purely supposition on my part but there used to be a Borden plant located in Arcade NY. on the Arcade and Attica RR. which interchanged with the Pennsy Buffalo line. Granted that is a long way for milk to travel but I thought I would pass it on Brian C ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:01:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroad Stoneworks Kit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fb0649698277b96bbabe98d89eaee786 Randy, I've built both the skewed two track version and the Rockville kit from Model Stoneworks. Take your time getting the joints as tight as you can then use patching plaster to fill in any voids.I glued some 100 grit wet/dry paper to some plywood and used this to sand the joints. Do not use joint compound as it will take coloring differently ( don't ask me how I know this ) With the addition of some PRR railings these really make a signature item on the row for PRR layouts. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:14:57 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria Division X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7608d2d894674710b708d3660b8d92d4 jpbtrans wrote: > Gentlemen, > > You have both been a great help to my research. I do have a few more > questions, if I may. > > 1. The coal mine at Lovington. When did it close? What was the capacity > of the trackage there? > 2. What type of industrial base did Decatur have, other then > agriculture? > 3. Was Decatur an important enough point to warrent its own switch > engine or two, for the local work or did each train do its own. > 4. Was there any passenger traffic on the branch at any time? > 5. Would the Peoria branch have been viable in 1965? > 6. Any other information you may have would be welcome. I'am not picky, > I just want it all!!! Ya know... I gotta tell you... before I had to drop everything to traipse all over Indiana and Illinois looking for pictures to illustrate the book (and spending a small fortune in the process), I was actually working on a full-length "Keystone"-intended history of the Terre Haute & Peoria. If I had the time to get my notes together, collect my thoughts and type it out, I could probably answer a whole bunch of these questions, and at length. But then, I'd have the Keystone article I had planned to write... I think. And if I posted it here, it would be hardly necessary to have Chuck print it, or would it? I'm not trying to be funny or flippant. This is an actual problem I have had occasion to think about. Is this the forum of choice for the kind of history I have been trying to research and write? It's something I wonder about when I'm asked to contribute to one of the burgeoning number of web pages which purport to offer an encyclopedic history of pieces of the PRR... which I don't really have time to do since I'm trying so desperately hard to finish the big hard-copy projects I have undertaken... which brings me back full-circle in this little ramble. So, Jon... if you could be just a wee bit patient, I'll do what I can do to help answer your questions. In the meantime, the short form answers go like this: 1. Mid to late 'twenties (don't have my notes handy--they're under the pictures somewhere), about the same time many other midwestern mines closed due to non-union competition from Kentucky and West Virginia. Track capacity for the mine was not great. Then again, while I don't have specific figures, I think the majority of the tonnage shipped out on the Wabash, and probably for their locomotives. 2. Decatur once had an iron rolling mill. Other stuff I don't have. 3. The Vandalia had at least one switch job. I'd be surprised if the PRR did not also, at least until after WW2. 4. Certainly. The TH&P had one through train for a while, as did predecessor Illinois Midland. Plus locals. Passenger trains on the PRR became exclusively gas-electric car-equipped in the late 'twenties, and ended west of Decatur in the early 'thirties. The remaining Terre Haute-Decatur round-trip became a mixed by WW2, and ended sometime around 1950. 5. It was hardly viable in 1920. It existed in 1965, but could hardly have been profitable. After Conrail start-up, you'll recall, the line east of Decatur was state subsidized, and passed through the hands of a couple of designated operators before being abandoned in 1984. The line west of Decatur lasted until 1987 as a part of the Illinois Terminal. 6. Well... Jon, didn't you used to sing with Yes? Richard Wallis (Weary in Wheaton) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 02:36:34 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR building standards X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5ff20f5a5d5de2ba81a4755d233d8865 An earlier message asked about standard stations used on the PRR and if any documentation existed. I answered that there were no standard stations and now realize that I was wrong !! While looking thru my PRR library for some information I came upon a book I had purchased at Timonium about 2-3 years ago. The title is Interstate Commerce Commission Division of Valuation Eastern District, PRR Company Lines east of Pittsburgh, Type book for buildings Circa 1920. It's a 67 page non bound book with a number of standard station plans some of which include the location of the stations. Also included are pass. shelters, baggage and express buildings, freight stations, yard master offices, outhouses and coal boxes, shops and engine houses, company dwellings and retaining walls. The book is in a loose leaf binding with a bright purple cover. I'm not sure who had these for sale but if I find out I'll post it to the group. If I remember correctly the individual also had some B&O books on the same subject. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 01:01:02 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR building standards X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c510b2cf4628b36f4b0721b605b1c050 Hi Ken, All, Sounds like that could be a book sold by Gary Schlerf (Trains & Stuff, Ltd.) except that it would now be 120 pages and is spiral (comb?) bound with plastic cover. Still $20. On my "to get" list. Gary's email is NETRAINSTF@aol.com His address is: 10216 Bent Creek Rd., Oyster Harbor, Ocean City, MD 21842 410-213-7122 Office 410-213-7124 Fax Later, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:58:42 -0500 From: Michael Bezilla Subject: Re: [PRR] Renovo News X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6eb07796bf1dbaacffcafcee03ff8f68 Lest it be confused with Sheffield, Pa., on the P&E near Kane, let's not forget that there was a Sheffield Farms dairy company. They had their own milk cars -- as did Borden and also Abbots-- and all three dairies' cars could often be seen perhaps as late the 1950s on trains throughout central and north central Pa.: the Buffalo line, the Bald Eagle branch, the Lewisburg & Tyrone branch, the Bellefonte branch, etc. Please correct me if someone knows otherwise, but I believe the Sheffield Farms milk cars were battleship gray, maybe some yellow trim. Kind of squarish tank cars. Quite unique. I don't know about the Abbots and Bordens but 4-6 Sheffield mtys bound for Bellefonte were regularly attached to the Red Arrow out of Phila and cut out at Altoona. Does anyone have color photos of the Sheffields? -m >> Dennis the picture of your two milk cars was a normal and very often >> occurrence for the railroad. The cars came from Sheffield Pa and were on >> there way to Borden Milk Plant. Not quite sure which one though. > >This is purely supposition on my part but there used to be a Borden plant >located in Arcade NY. on the Arcade and Attica RR. which interchanged with >the Pennsy Buffalo line. Granted that is a long way for milk to travel but I >thought I would pass it on ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:05:52 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] C&PD Trip Info Request X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 56a9dd14f70b9698029ce4cb38fee7c1 Hello Albert, >This weekend, I am to travel with friends along the Pennsy's (now NS') >Columbia & Port Deposit Branch. This is our first foray into the area >to investigate the PRR heritage of this line, and we could use some help. >Our "tour" will begin in Perryville, MD and proceed north to Columbia, PA. >My limited knowledge of the "Port Road" includes vague memories of the >inaccessibility of the line. Can anyone who is more familiar with it >offer tips to us regarding: First, see the "Hobo's Guide: C&PD" at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/guide/colum_port.html The line is relatively innaccesible, but with the leaves falling you will have the best chances of seeing a lot during the winter months. The branch is still lightly traveled in daylight as far as I know. Places to focus on - Perryville, Columbia (see COLA tower while it still stands, don't miss the old Reading freight house, follow the Columbia branch and the old reading tracks). In general the line is difficult to photograph, and that will not be improved by the low autumn light. While in the area, you might also enjoy trying to follow the A&S ROW and shooting photos of places like Martic Forge before those bridges are torn down. Finally, from Columbia, you can follow the Columbia branch back to Lancaster. >* How to access the tunnels (Stewart, Frazier, & Wildcat). I believe that two are just north of PILOT. Get access to the ROW at PILOT, walk north about a mile. >* How to access the three creek flumes above the right-of-way. >* The hydroelectric dams: scenic or not? Holtwood - access is difficult, the coal plant was torn down a couple of months ago. Safe Harbor - access ain't great, but the view from the lookout area above the dam is nice, and you get a reasonable view of the curved A&S high bridge. From the bottom, you can get very close to the two bridges at safe harbor, but you will always be on the "shadow" side. Access is controlled by the power company to the other side. I understand that once or twice a year they open the dam for tours...Interesting factoid: coal was dredged from the safe harbor impoundment and shipped by rail to the Holtwood steam plant, up to 50 carloads/day!!! Thus the siding at safe harbor served as more than just a place to deliver supplies to the dam. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:45:32 -0600 (CST) From: harperd@tamug.tamu.edu (Don Harper) Subject: [PRR] PRR: former PRR equipment X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d1b56f69851bae7ee37e2b50480d997d For those of you who are interested in the whereabouts of former PRR equipment, this just came in on the Railspot listserver. The Longhorn RR operates out of Austin, TX >For those of you who are curious about the lineage of the current Longhorn roster, here's the scoop. ---------- > > Longhorn 7250 was built as PRR 7230 to PC 7230 to CR 7230 to CR 7583 to > Juniata Term 7250 to Longhorn > > Longhorn 8625 built as PRR 8648 to PRR 7648 to LV 7648 to CR 1013 to > Juniata Term 8625 to Longhorn > > Longhorn 9275 built as Indianapolis Union 30 to CR 9608 to Juniata Term > 9275 to Longhorn ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:35:24 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] C&PD Trip Info Request X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 74de8a191520837de759f6230b6f7370 On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. wrote: > will not be improved by the low autumn light. While in the area, you might > also enjoy trying to follow the A&S ROW and shooting photos of places like > Martic Forge before those bridges are torn down. Finally, from Columbia, > you can follow the Columbia branch back to Lancaster. Has the maintainer of the A&S guide got anywhere? (according to the top page: Atglen & Susquehana Branch - Editor: FredAbend@aol.com) Should we others be contributing? My hope is to go back out and check out the rest A&S, C&PD and the NC south of New Freedom sometime before the end of the year... but not this week, since I'm in Seattle now and won't be getting back to Pittsburgh (by train) until Monday AM (unless NS really sucks, in which case, PM:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: [PRR] Coal dredging? Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:51:48 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b6d617ee4e5385d79c47ee5ab7342ff2 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 9:06 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] C&PD Trip Info Request Holtwood - access is difficult, the coal plant was torn down a couple of months ago. What was the purpose of a coal plant at Holtwood? I understand that once or twice a year they open the dam for tours...Interesting factoid: coal was dredged from the safe harbor impoundment and shipped by rail to the Holtwood steam plant, up to 50 carloads/day!!! Thus the siding at safe harbor served as more than just a place to deliver supplies to the dam. First, those tours at Safe Harbor have been mentioned on list before, but does anyone know more about them? Are any dates planned for the future? Anyone? Second, can anyone give insight to this coal dredge operation? Was there a seam that was cover by water and worked before the area was impounded? What time frame are we talking? Were there any other coal operations in that area on the state? This is the first I have ever heard of such. Slate is mined in the Delta area and there are some mentions of gold mining too, though I think these were very small and very old. Thanks, Conan Evans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:09:17 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal dredging? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c5faf7509a8e767967e85d5f46bc7279 Greetings to Conan and the list: The coal was anthracite silt that washed downriver from the hard coal regions in the days of extensive deep mining that took place at massive breakers that sized and washed coal. The waste water, with coal silt too fine to be harvested by the breakers' screens, was dumped into the creeks that were tributaries of the Susquehanna. Remember that the North Branch of the Susquehanna flows through Wilkes-Barre, so the presence of hard coal oprations should not come as too much of a surprise. There were so many coal barges more or less permanently moored along the Susquehanna in Harrisburg for dredging purposes that they were collectively called the Susquehanna Navy. This ended in approximately the 1920s-30s. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@prodigy.net Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:23:43 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal dredging? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 96c20a4a93a6f120659fbf961fae0903 >Dan Cupper said >There were so many coal barges more or less permanently moored along the >Susquehanna in Harrisburg for dredging purposes that they were >collectively called the Susquehanna Navy. This ended in approximately >the 1920s-30s. The coal fired steam power plant at Holtwood was built specifically to use this antracite coal. Coal dredging operations in the impoundments behind Safe Harbor and Holtwood dams continued into the 1950s Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:24:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Pans and catenary X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0f3f96ce10d923d93a2b6f9035b4db92 Does anybody know of any water pans on the electrrfied sections after the installation of catenary? And if so for how long were they operational? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MSand17545@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:47:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna and Atglen Branch X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cea645ce2e64e3e3b92d6d18e0210c44 Has FAST (FRIENDS TO SAVE THE ATGLEN AND SUSQUEHANNA TRAIL) gotten anywhere on there fight to help preserve that historic branch from the wrecking crane. Why don't more of us help them to preserve it for a trail? If any info write back Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "velure" Subject: [PRR] in the sig Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:55:40 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e8047cfdeff7dab5b02b04e4d55169e9 > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. i get an error when i follow us this url. what's the deal? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] in the sig Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:03:45 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d3faf08639d243bdfcd54f845fc99028 On 10 Nov, "velure" wrote: > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > i get an error when i follow us this url. what's the deal? Remove the trailing ".". MS mailers are too stupid to know to do that. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:05:54 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] in the sig X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7f82898d79e8e2a61a0998ec363bca40 I didnt have any problems getting there at all.... On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, velure wrote: >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >i get an error when i follow us this url. what's the deal? > >-steve > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "velure" Subject: Re: [PRR] in the sig Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:18:54 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3417d10d5826a756d1434ece97435f1f all is well now. for some odd reason, i was getting held up with the cookie thru my fire-wall. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal dredging? Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:16:25 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ce5ff229e43eaa1870408f225d3283d6 Just like the urban sprawling of today washing silt into the rivers and the Bay! Was Safe Harbor the only place for this dredging operation. There are dams above Safe Harbor that I would suspect are older then it. Were dredging operations carried out in these areas too? This is absolutely fascinating. Is there any reference material on this subject? I have a book about the great floods of PA and there is some mention of the barge traffic around Harrisburg, but I always thought it was because of the canal systems. The steam plant at Holtwood, did it provide a backup for electric production in times of low water? When was it built? Thanks, Conan -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:Cupper@prodigy.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 3:09 PM To: Conan Evans Cc: TALK PRR- Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal dredging? Greetings to Conan and the list: The coal was anthracite silt that washed downriver from the hard coal regions in the days of extensive deep mining that took place at massive breakers that sized and washed coal. The waste water, with coal silt too fine to be harvested by the breakers' screens, was dumped into the creeks that were tributaries of the Susquehanna. Remember that the North Branch of the Susquehanna flows through Wilkes-Barre, so the presence of hard coal oprations should not come as too much of a surprise. There were so many coal barges more or less permanently moored along the Susquehanna in Harrisburg for dredging purposes that they were collectively called the Susquehanna Navy. This ended in approximately the 1920s-30s. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@prodigy.net Acts 4:12 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "velure" Subject: [PRR] locomotive type needed Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:18:45 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c3c0c6912ba57e2b0e6e41214f1a60d4 i guess this catapults me into the "fringe" of the hardcore SPF paradigm, but... i just bought a house and the house number is 1758. what PRR locomotive shared this number. i would love to use this as my holiday / change of address card. also, a picture would be nice. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:31:30 -0500 (EST) From: bubbles@visi.net Subject: [PRR] Standard stations and the Northern Central Rwy. X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c9cbc256b8b233b3d4d25971be34cf0e Hi All.... This recent talk about standard stations reminded me that the Northern Central Rwy....after it was controlled by but before it was leased to the PRR had a standard station design. This was for small town stations such as New Freedom,Pa.,White Hall,Md., and many others. New Freedom (which American model builders has a HO kit for) is still standing and is currently undergoing restoration. As a side note to this....If you ever have the chance.... and travel much...visit the D.L&W station in Scranton,Pa.... Now a hotel., then visit Baltimore's Penn station. If you see something familiar its because Baltimore's Penn station used some of the design of the Scranton station. One if i remember right is one story higher than the other. (Also see the Baltimore article in the spring 95 issue of the "Keystone".) Also...for those wanting to tour the former NC line between New Freedom to the south. If you have a bike...use one. Its a long way from New Freedom to Monkton and on to Cockeysville where you'll find rail again. As some know...this was a two track main at one time and has been turned into a Rail-Trail. Most places where former stations were are accessable...but mostly they were/are off narrow hilly country roads so be careful. The station at Monkton has been restored and is very busy on Weekends. You'll find some former industries along the line. There are still many bridges in place and some signal equipment too. (case in point is the signal mast at Monkton.) While the 1866 passenger station at cockeysville is gone the freight station still stands and is/ was used a lawn mower shop. Its still in its PRR Grey paint and still has it slate roof. Also lots of the rail in the old...and i mean the old section of the industrial park at Cockeysville is still there and runs to many of the buildings that the PRR used to serve. The Northbound passenger platform at Cockeyville might still be there under the weeds and dirt...but be careful as the property where the station was, while still showing signs of the station platform and some foundation is also now occupied and used for a private home.Thats the Southbound side where the station was. There are a couple of small industries at White Hall,Md. but they have long ago been converted to other businesses. The stone Bank building near Parkton and where Sparks was might still be there along with a old Railroad hotel...unless its been torn down since i was there last. I haven't seen the rest of the line in a while so i can't say whats still there or not. If you continue south...some of the double track has been restored for light rail service. The stations at Lutherville and Riderwood have been saved as homes and except for the light rail operation...much of the line until you get to former Mt. Vernon yard looks much like it did in late PRR days. You know...if you think about it... as with the Rail-Trail from New Freedom to York where the Trail is next to the tracks...The same thing could be done with the Maryland part. This was a two track main line....there could still be room for a Trail and you could have a single track line restored to Cockeysville (you have to go to Texas,Md. to rejoin rail again) The state of Maryland owns the property and a deal could be made between NS,Md. state ,Baltimore co, and perhaps interested parties in Pa. to restore the rail line. Two things could be done. First this would give NS a line running from Baltimore to Harrisburg which would make Amtrak happy in keeping them off that part of the NEC. Or and least likely to happen...this line could be used to expand the dinner train service to Cockeysville. ( I doubt they would want to go any further south than Cockeysville because of the light rail traffic south of Texas,Md.) Oh well....this is what pipe dreams are made of. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:26:20 EST Subject: [PRR] Cabin car assignments X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 337df7d0b1478a98aee37bfe259992ae In a message dated 11/9/99 8:09:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << As far as the cabin car question, I'm as clueless as the next person. Perhaps we can enlist Dan Cupper or Rick Tipton to clarify things. Doug Burkhard Sanner wrote: (snip) > 2) Cabin cars > Can you enlighten me about the scheme > cabin cars were assigned to trains? Did > they follow a freight train from one region > into another, or from yard to yard, or any > other method? I.e., is it possible to find > cabin cars from various regions in one > yard in the east? > I bought recently some Bowser kits, and > like them very much. They are lettered > for Philadalphia region, but I also have > one for Buckeye (purchased in Columbus > OH during a short stay early October). > For what time and lines antennas on the > cabin cars would be mandatory? > > Best regards and thanks in advance > for any help, > > Burkhard Sanner > Germany>> Gize, I feel fairly ignorant on this point. We have ample evidence that up to the system consolidation of 1920, cabin cars were assigned to a division, and tended to stay home. For example, you couldn't run a PFtW&C N6A on the Panhandle Division that paralleled it because it wouldn't clear all those tunnels between Pittsburgh and Columbus. Also, cabins were clearly marked for their division. By the 1940's, cabins were marked for divisions (when were they marked for regions ?). In the 1950's (we guess), Mark Bej's tantalizing list of cabin assignments tells us by number who is "at home" in specific towns, and in some cases on specific runs. At some point, multidivision cabin pooling started, signalled on the PRR by the yellow cupolas (E-W pool) and gray cupolas (N-S pool) on a minority of all-steel cabin cars. By the 1960's, some of the wood-sheathed N6B's (originally only used on the Panhandle Div, and then later the standard cabin of Lines West) had migrated onto Lines East as local and work cabins. I'm not sure whether this tells us Lines West now needed fewer cabins, or that Lines East had lost a generation of its own wood-sheathed cars (N4, ND, NDa?) to old age. Antennas were applied on steel cabins for those divisions equipped with induction train phones. I can't remember offhand which divisions (even on Lines West) this would be. However, about 1964, modern mobile radio equipment was installed on the PRR, and the antennas were usually cut off. The "radio" decal (white circle on red square) is characteristic of this period, but probably not universal. Notice I've raised as many questions as I've answered. Can anyone cite the Keystone articles that deal with cabin assignments? Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:26:18 EST Subject: [PRR] CK lettering surviving to 1974 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5cc45b886afe1ecc7f88dfdd66758430 In a message dated 11/9/99 8:09:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Burkhard and the list, To cite but one example, on page 60 of Morning Sun's PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment is an H33 covered hopper pictured on December 28, 1974. It is still in the circle Keystone scheme, albeit heavily weathered. You can run the Circle Keystone cars past the unfortunate demise of the PRR in 1968 and not worry about it too much (though a whole fleet still in the circle Keystone scheme would be inappropriate). >> I got my first SLR in 1974, so I have abundant photo evidence of the PRR car fleet of the period. The first thing to say is that freight car paint tends to last until something drastic happens to the car (major repair, rebuild for different use, illegibility of markings). Having said that, do recognize that the H33 is the exception that proves the point. These roller-bearing equipped cars were among the last out in CK (1953), and lived a protected life in assigned service. Very very few of them were ever repainted by the PRR (see my upcoming Keystone article on covered hopper lettering). Similarly, the 65' G26, a mill gon not supplied to scrap dealers, lived a charmed life, waiting for the next bridge beams, etc. , and could still be seen in CK in 1974 and later unless it had been through the G26C rebuilding program to stiffen the carsides. By comparison, the X46, one of the last production box cars to be delivered in CK, might still be caught in CK in 1974, but original lettering usually bordered on illegibility, and the logo itself was often a pattern in rust. The X46 was particularly unfortunate to have been "born" at the beginning of universal use of fork lift trucks, which tend to sideswipe carsides and bend/warp doors, generating lots of rusty spots and streaks. In 1974, an X46 was almost 50% likely to have been repainted in PK (plain keystone, starting 1961). To stretch a point further, high-wear cars like open hoppers or gondolas were REALLY hard to find in CK in 1974, as they had already hit the point of illegibility and had to be repainted. Bottom line, if you model PRR past 1965 (I do), these CK cars should be (as you point out) weathered as OLD cars, and should be in the minority. In an allied thought, by 1974 finding a PRR cabin car in any PRR paint scheme was a real find. I never saw one in CK (or more correctly, NK4). Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:48:19 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] locomotive type needed X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: fede52757ab2878ca3d419aff0912059 The only reference to an engine with the number of 1758 is an H6. Best guess is that it was built about 1900. It may have been part of the original order by lines east in 1899. May have been built by Baldwin - they built over 1000. It was probably retired in the late 20's to early 30's. It is not listed as one of the later H6a or b. Cos Sorry, I could not find anything more specific. velure wrote: > i guess this catapults me into the "fringe" of the hardcore SPF paradigm, > but... > > i just bought a house and the house number is 1758. what PRR locomotive > shared this number. i would love to use this as my holiday / change of > address card. also, a picture would be nice. > > -steve > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:16:21 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] PRR 477656 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3c8cae2382b421e1bc5b0d998fa11ab7 Hi, PRR 477656/PC/CR 22824 cabin car has been reported at a Museum, Maybrook, NY, and Casey's Caboose Stop, Titusville, PA. Seems like one of these is in error. Does anyone know the numbers for either or both of these locations? I wrote Casey's twice but received no reply. I'd guess they don't know a cabin car from a log cabin. Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 113 West 17th Street, Leadville, CO 80461 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] locomotive type needed Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:17:10 -0700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d52daab77eb7095a17008bee968a984b Hello; Acording to my (old) copy of Edson's KEYSTONE STEAM AND ELECTRIC, 1758 belonged to a H6 (2-8-0) locomotive. Round plate, but there is nothing that would prevent you from doing your address up with a keystone. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: velure To: talk prr Date: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 3:27 PM Subject: [PRR] locomotive type needed >i guess this catapults me into the "fringe" of the hardcore SPF paradigm, >but... > >i just bought a house and the house number is 1758. what PRR locomotive >shared this number. i would love to use this as my holiday / change of >address card. also, a picture would be nice. > >-steve > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:52:08 -0500 From: David ott Subject: [PRR] Re:Model Railroad Stoneworks Kits X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 77d733325867568202ef777a925828ca Hello All, Are these kits still commercially available? Thanks, Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:50:48 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] locomotive type needed X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d9b33d0b7b27a9f94e296b170e885c2b Steve and the list, According to Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster, the second and last steamer numbered PRR 1758 was an H6 (narrow belpaire firebox, not the free-steaming H6a/H6b). She was built by Altoona Machine Shop in August 1899 and scrapped in April 1925. Enjoy your house!!!! Doug velure wrote: > i guess this catapults me into the "fringe" of the hardcore SPF paradigm, > but... > > i just bought a house and the house number is 1758. what PRR locomotive > shared this number. i would love to use this as my holiday / change of > address card. also, a picture would be nice. > > -steve > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:15:12 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] E3sd running board question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e8896fac6b5fed784a9412ccf384ac75 Hello list, I was rereading (for about the fifth time) Apex of the Atlantics and I noticed (for the first time) that the E3sd Atlantics as originally built (and for a considerable time afterwards) had running boards that changed height at the locomotive's cylinders. For example, see page 36 of Apex of the Atlantics; there an unknown E2d is shown at Manhattan Transfer with the running board jog over the cylinders. In Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, on page 32, there are pictures of E3d 4150 (in 1910), E5s 4160 (in 1916), and E5s 1766 (in 1939) with the running board jog. Fortunately for me, the changeover period dates to at least the 1930s; on the same page in Carleton's book, there's a shot of E5s 1750 in June 1939 with what I'd call the conventional (ie straight) running board that doesn't change elevation at all. My question to the list is basically: WHY? Every time running board height changes, isn't a tripping hazard created? Since I model the 1948-52 timeframe, I will run my eventual E5s/E3sd with straight running boards (which the Mantua Atlantic boiler castings have), but for those of you in earlier times, this could mean more work with the Zona saw. Ferreting out PRR steam information for over a dozen years.... Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Lake Boats (resolved questions) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:37:18 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4ca43d1dc01593dd83ac5d70e4590a51 [Jerry has reviewed for relevance.] I was finally able to resolve questions left over from an old discussion on this list. The discussion topic was first the PRR lake boats, then veered somewhat off track. If you see this message on prr-talk, it's because Jerry allowed its slightly off-topic content on. Here's the scoop. 1. There were and are still boats that are "captive" to the Great Lakes. Two or three ports build them, Lorain Ohio, and some place in Wisconsin, I want to say Sheboygan. Some of these boats can make it through the Soo locks (and thus into Lake Superior) but not the Welland. 1a. BTW "boats" is the correct term. That is what the sailors call them on the Lakes; they are not generally called "ships" 2. Remember the "can the boats be taken out on the open ocean" arguments over which lots of hot air got vented on this list? My contention (acquired from several sources) was confirmed. It is the ocean-going vessels venturing into the Lakes that is the more troublesome situation, and it has to do with wave period as I mentioned. Here's how it works. Waves on an ocean, waves on a string (e.g. a piano, car antenna, jump-rope), waves in a tube (flute, organ), etc. all act the same. See your high school physics text for this factoid. The size of the medium determines the preferred (stable) distances between waves. Waves that do not match these preferred distances do not last long. The ocean is a huge bathtub; the Lakes are merely large. The wave period (distance between waves) on the Lakes is considerably shorter than on the open ocean. Thus, a ship on the open ocean essentially never (essentially = even better than "close enough for government work") finds itself in the situation where it its bow and stern are on wave crests, with a trought amidships. However, this is not true on the Lakes. There, with the much shorter wave periods, it can often happen that a lake boat is "suspended" by bow and stern while the midsection is either poorly supported or unsupported. The longer boats may actually sit on 3 wave crests and 2 troughs. What effect does this have? The frames may bend the point of cracking and even failure. Oceangoing vessels that are to sail the Great Lakes must be designed more rigidly (and thus: more expensively) to survive intact. Incidentally, how do I know this? I've already posted at least one reference in the previous post on this topic, and all can easily retrieve it via the prr-talk archives. However, I was prompted into posting this update because of a conversation I recently had with the husband of a patient of mine. His credentials? Nothing much. Just been sailing on lakers for upwards of 40 years. Not that he's any expert or anything, tho. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:56:54 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: [PRR] Re: Peoria Division X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2525b09f2beb0525e25caea8a42eb8cd --------------1137179E98904BB563D603D9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jpbtrans wrote: > Gentlemen, > > You have both been a great help to my research. I do have a few more > questions, if I may. > > Here's my answers > 1. The coal mine at Lovington. When did it close? What was the capacity > of the trackage there? Check the track chart, I don't have one > 2. What type of industrial base did Decatur have, other then > agriculture? Again both direct and reciprocal switching are listed on the > track chart > 3. Was Decatur an important enough point to warrent its own switch > engine or two, for the local work or did each train do its own. It looks > like it at one time > 4. Was there any passenger traffic on the branch at any time? > Yes, in 1941, 1943 to 48 it was trains 909 and 910 both were mixed > trains. That's what years I have in employee timetables. > > 5. Would the Peoria branch have been viable in 1965? yes usually two > geeps like the Crawfordsville Branch to the end. > 6. Any other information you may have would be welcome. I'am not picky, > I just want it all!!! > Now for what you didn't ask for: Power? 1948: Steam, B, E, excluding E6, H6, 8, and 10, that's it. Diesel: all prohibited for what was available in 1948. Whaaa? A centepede on the TH&P? Fat Chance, too many light bridges. On Lines West, H series were "bread & butter" engines used for everything and seen everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me to see them used for the mixed trains. An excellent choice. Maximum speed? Quite a racetrack: 30 mph for both frt and pass. I can do 1902 on the TH&P: westbound: No19 Lv. TH at 7am Arv Peoria at 12:55pm Daily except Sunday and no.21 (extension of St. Louis Express Daily)Lv. TH at 3pm Arv Peoria at 9:10 PM Daily eastbound: No. 10 Lv PEO. at 3:50pm Arv Terre Haute 9:55pm daily except sunday and No. 20 Lv Peo 7am Arv Terre Haute 12:45pm The one thing that makes the Peoria branch interesting is the lack of interlockers, a lot of stop boards at crossings. Both roads were required to stop. Look at this: Paris,Il across the Big Four's Cairo Branch Lovington: Wabash R.R. Midland City: I.C. R.R. Morton: Santa Fe Oakland City was interlocked , but was built on a shoe string budget, the building looked like an outhouse, with two time releases and a few indicators. > During the 50's switch stand lamps were not required on switches. (they > were probably hanging inside someone's garage, like mine looks.) > Steve Long --------------1137179E98904BB563D603D9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

jpbtrans wrote:

Gentlemen,

 You have both been a great help to my research. I do have a few more
questions, if I may.

 
Here's my answers
1. The coal mine at Lovington. When did it close? What was the capacity
of the trackage there?   Check the track chart, I don't have one
2. What type of industrial base did Decatur have, other then
agriculture? Again both direct and reciprocal switching are listed on the track chart
3. Was Decatur an important enough point to warrent its own switch
engine or two, for the local work or did each train do its own. It looks like it at one time
4. Was there any passenger traffic on the branch at any time?
Yes, in 1941, 1943 to 48 it was trains 909 and 910 both were mixed trains.  That's what years I have in employee timetables.
 
5. Would the Peoria branch have been viable in 1965? yes usually two geeps like the Crawfordsville Branch to the end.
6. Any other information you may have would be welcome. I'am not picky,
I just want it all!!!
Now for what you didn't ask for:  Power?
1948:  Steam,  B, E, excluding E6, H6, 8, and 10, that's it.
Diesel: all prohibited for what was available in 1948.
Whaaa? A centepede on the TH&P? Fat Chance, too many light bridges. On Lines West, H series were "bread & butter" engines used for everything and seen everywhere. It wouldn't surprise me to see them used for the mixed trains. An excellent choice.
Maximum speed? Quite a racetrack: 30 mph for both frt and pass.
I can do 1902 on the TH&P:
westbound:  No19 Lv. TH at 7am Arv Peoria at 12:55pm Daily except Sunday
and no.21 (extension of St. Louis Express Daily)Lv. TH at 3pm Arv Peoria at 9:10 PM Daily
eastbound:   No. 10 Lv PEO. at 3:50pm Arv Terre Haute 9:55pm daily except sunday
and No. 20 Lv Peo 7am Arv Terre Haute 12:45pm
The one thing that makes the Peoria branch interesting is the lack of interlockers, a lot of stop boards at crossings. Both roads were required to stop. Look at this:
Paris,Il across the Big Four's  Cairo Branch
Lovington: Wabash R.R.
Midland City: I.C. R.R.
Morton: Santa Fe
Oakland City was interlocked , but was built on a shoe string budget, the building looked like an outhouse, with two time releases and a few indicators.
During the 50's switch stand lamps were not required on switches.  (they were probably hanging inside someone's garage, like mine looks.)
 
Steve Long --------------1137179E98904BB563D603D9-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:09:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR B74 Horse Car, X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2eaa632d3a7180dbc8ead567a54618fc Modelers, Anyone complete the new Bethlehem Car Works PRR B74 Horse Car yet? I picked mine up about 3 weeks go. Found an open evening to start it and went at it. Very nice brass side etchings and well detailed plastic/resin ends. Ranks right up there with their earlier B-60 and M70b headend cars. After an hour or so into the building of the kit, I found out there was a few important styrene strips missing. Can't build it without them. So I put those parts aside and worked on what I could on the remaining parts of the kit. The kit then sat for a week and a half. In the meantime I ordered the correct Pennsy 6 wheel trucks (Precision Scale) from D&S Hobbies. They arrived and I found myself trying to figure out how and where I was going to mount them. More on that later. Today I returned from the hobby shop with replacement styrene so I could continue on the kit. Now those parts are done. Next step was assembling the ends, sides and floor together. Fairly easy job. But when I was done with that step, I test fit the roof and noticed that the large door end is not designed correctly. It is not tall enough. If you glue the end piece on flush with the bottom of the sides you will see when you place the roof on it is not tall enough. I quickly broke all the glue joints before it was too late and had to hand fit the the end piece so it was flush with the roof. I then had to add extra strene to the bottom of the end piece so it would be flush with the bottom of the sides. I know you are lost by what I am saying but if you built this kit you probably know what I mean. Now, that all done I glued the other end in place and all is correct and square. A little filing and sanding of the roof to get a nice matching contour is all that remained. Now flip the car over and figure out those truck locations. My mistake was not having the trucks I was going to use on hand while I built the undeneath of the car weeks ago. My previously done work did not allow for the trucks to be centered on the already glued in bolsters and center beam. Modification (minor) was done to allow the attachment of the Precission Scale trucks. The car now sits perfectly square and level on the tracks. All that needs to be done is final detailing and my favorite thing I like to do, Painting. Photos of the finished model will be placed here when they are available. I didn't intend this to be a review of this model but it looks like it is. Be prepared for some slight deviations from the instructions. But once finished I think this will look great in a fast mail train to get those race horses to their next destination.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:15:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:Model Railroad Stoneworks Kits X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9825f663aa40c52e92e82589b6da3195 Yes they are , all kits are available in fact the Rockville bridge kit was just made available about 3 months ago. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:53:48 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Peoria Division X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0eab930451c3c5a81628eab8c26e2580 --------------2F210B51ACC92B794046E74F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Long wrote: > > >> >> 5. Would the Peoria branch have been viable in 1965? yes usually two >> geeps like the Crawfordsville Branch to the end. > Yeah, but they probably only really needed one. >> > > Maximum speed? Quite a racetrack: 30 mph for both frt and pass. In 1930 they could go 50 on tangent, 40 on curves. > The one thing that makes the Peoria branch interesting is the lack of > interlockers, a lot of stop boards at crossings. Both roads were > required to stop. Look at this: > Paris,Il across the Big Four's Cairo Branch The Cairo division crossing ultimately got an interlocker remoted from Midland in the 1960s. The other thing that was interesting was that, for the most part, the branch was an except Sundays operation. All but a handful of the block stations were dark on Sundays, and basically 7am-5pm on weekdays. That isn't to say that trains didn't run at night or on Sundays, just not many or often. It is a fascinating little branch. I like to call it Pennsy's Prairie branch line. Richard Wallis (say Jon--why so much interest in this particular corner of the PRR?) > Lovington: Wabash R.R. > Midland City: I.C. R.R. > Morton: Santa Fe > Oakland City was interlocked , but was built on a shoe string budget, > the building looked like an outhouse, with two time releases and a few > indicators. > >> During the 50's switch stand lamps were not required on switches. >> (they were probably hanging inside someone's garage, like mine >> looks.) >> > > Steve Long --------------2F210B51ACC92B794046E74F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Steve Long wrote:

 
 
5. Would the Peoria branch have been viable in 1965? yes usually two geeps like the Crawfordsville Branch to the end.
Yeah, but they probably only really needed one.
 
Maximum speed? Quite a racetrack: 30 mph for both frt and pass.
In 1930 they could go 50 on tangent, 40 on curves.

The one thing that makes the Peoria branch interesting is the lack of interlockers, a lot of stop boards at crossings. Both roads were required to stop. Look at this:
Paris,Il across the Big Four's  Cairo Branch

The Cairo division crossing ultimately got an interlocker remoted from Midland in the 1960s.  The other thing that was interesting was that, for the most part, the branch was an except Sundays operation.  All but a handful of the block stations were dark on Sundays, and basically 7am-5pm on weekdays.  That isn't to say that trains didn't run at night or on Sundays, just not many or often.

It is a fascinating little branch.  I like to call it Pennsy's Prairie branch line.

Richard Wallis

(say Jon--why so much interest in this particular corner of the PRR?)

Lovington: Wabash R.R.
Midland City: I.C. R.R.
Morton: Santa Fe
Oakland City was interlocked , but was built on a shoe string budget, the building looked like an outhouse, with two time releases and a few indicators.

During the 50's switch stand lamps were not required on switches.  (they were probably hanging inside someone's garage, like mine looks.)
 
Steve Long
  --------------2F210B51ACC92B794046E74F-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 06:20:52 EST Subject: [PRR] C&PD, A&S, track pans, Susquehanna Navy, FAST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: be62f72125537ec81aefcd8261a7da1f Greetings to the List, especially all who sent posts on Lancaster County yesterday: I'd like to give replies in more depth then I'm going to do, but I'm faced with some time constraints that prevent me from checking out what I'm sending. So I'm doing this off the top of my head (always dangerous!). If I'm in doubt I'm going to add a question mark in parentheses (?). Access to the tunnels: Coming north from Perryville on Route 222 start watching for Pilottown Road as soon as you cross into Pennsylvania. Pilottown Road will wye off to your left and you'll have to make a very hard left to get on to it. If you reach Wakefield and Pa. 272, you've gone too far. Going south on Pilottown Road watch for Cook's Landing Road. Turn right on to it and follow it to the Susquehanna and the tracks. After parking you can walk upstream (north) to Williams Tunnel (I never heard it called Stewart). This is the least photogenic of the three as it's on a tight curve and poorly lit. A short walk downstream from where you park will take you into Maryland and Frazers Tunnel. This is the second best location. Poor north side, great south side. Continue south through the tunnel and after a while you'll reach Wildcat, best of the three. Good north side, great south side. Access three flumes: Go north to Columbia, get on 441 (River Road), continue south on River Road through Washington Boro until you are about to start going up a hill (Turkey Hill). Pull of to the right and park at the base. Walk back the tracks, go around Turkey hill that juts out into the Susquehanna, and continue until you reach the flumes. Be aware that this is a long, long hike. Hydroelectric dams: Conowingo: poor. Holtwood and Safe Harbor: ok C&PD and A&S joined at "Port" between Washington Boro and Turkey Hill. A&S began climbing while C&PD dropped until Safe Harbor where C&PD crosses the Conestoga on a low bridge and A&S did so on a high bridge. Columbia is a good location for photos. NS traffic, based on my own observation, generally follows the Conrail pattern -- eastbound parade in the early evening and westbound early morning. At this time of the year that puts most traffic at night. However, this is only a general rule. NS trains can be caught going either direction at any time. I'm the negligent maintainer of the A&S guide. I've just not gotten around to pulling all my information together into a format I'm happy with at all. I'll commit to having the information to Jerry before the end of the year for posting. I'm basing much of the information on the article I wrote for the Winter 1994 Keystone, "The Atglen & Susquehanna: Lancaster County's Low Grade." However, I do have some more information that I want to incorporate. I apologize for taking so long on this. Susquehanna Navy above Safe Harbor dam: Dan explained the source of the coal. In the case of Safe Harbor the coal settled out in "seams" above the dam and Pennsylvania Power & Light had a dredge, tug or tugs (?), and barges to recover the coal. Workers unloaded it above the dam, conveyed it to a cleaning/drying building, conveyed it across the Conestoga to a small yard for loading into coal cars. The railroad then took it down to Holtwood for burning in the plant there. This operation lasted until Hurricane Agnes in 1972. Agnes destroyed much of the equipment and rearranged the river bottom and seams. However, there was only a few years of coal left so the operation would have been over soon anyway. After Agnes PP&L trucked coal in, believe it or not. Track pans were in electrified territory. I have a slide of one at Atglen on the Main Line in the early fifties, not long after the railroad stopped using the pan. At the same location I have a B&W of workers stringing catenary in 1938 (?) with the pan filled with water (?). FAST is still fighting. All the rest of this paragraph (?): Last I remember is the WHOLE A&S (all the way to Wago Jct.) is now on the National Register of Historic Places. Last court ruling said the railroad could sell it to the townships. Lancaster County is still interested in it as a trail. Rumors have it that NS may approach the situation differently than CR. Amtrak still owns the overhead catenary and accompanying easement. I suspect that dredging went on above Holtwood before Safe Harbor. That would explain the location of the power plant and would say that the plant got built in a time period between the dams. Then when Safe Harbor came the complicated operation I explained above originated. However, this is just speculation on my part. The coal plant was just another source of power for PP&L. The whole grid made up for the times of low water flow. There are tours of the dams, but I don't know the hours. Typically, as I recall, you don't get to go deep inside to where the really neat stuff is. I have gone deep inside on special tours for the American Society of Mechanical Engineers of both Holtwood and Safe Harbor. Hope all this helps. --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] C&PD, A&S, track pans, Susquehanna Navy, FAST Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:26:28 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cc832fb3fb7545225c6a7e50055bdc7c One terribly minor correction to Fred's gobs of excellent material: FredAbend@aol.com scribit: > have it that NS may approach the situation differently than CR. Amtrak still > owns the overhead catenary and accompanying easement. There is minimal to no catenary any more on the A&S. What Fred meant to say is that Amtrak still owns the cat poles and high-tension lines atop them. ( I say "minimal" only as a hedge, as I _heard_, but did not observe first-hand or confirm, that some smidgeon of catenary may have been left at the easternmost end for storing/holding SEPTA. ) -- Mark Slowly converting the English language into C++ syntax. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "velure" Subject: [PRR] my late-evening Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:41:43 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9c9927fc281ec0c5f51994b92e2876a7 my wife sent me out for ice cream last night around 7:30, so... i hop in the car and went to relay md. (a 10 min. drive). nothing seemed to be going on, so i decided to head up to the stadiums where the old B&O tunnels under Baltimore. i managed to catch the last commuter train and then realized it was 8:30pm. so much for ice cream. i quickly jumped in the car and hopped on MLK blvd up to mt. royal station. this area has always puzzled me. i could never figure out where the B&O went after it came out of the tunnel. i found Falls Road and then found the Amtrak maintenance entrance. here's where the night gets good. i see ditch lights and then see the CSX train on a bridge above the NEC. now it all makes sense. by this time, it's 9:30. i am standing under the mt. royal ave. bridge and am looking into the NEC tunnel and what comes popping out? a ballast train. the poor GP was chugging hard pulling about 10 loaded ballast cars. as i watch the ballast run move past the station, i see a headlight drop out. i shine my flashlight in that direction and what do i find? a freight train waiting in the station. i get all excited, but just my luck, an Amtrak work truck comes driving out of the maintenance yard and stops where i am standing. asks me what i'm doing, and i reply "i'm watching trains." without hesitation he says "how can you see anything from back here, why don't you go over there" and points to the old NC line. "just say off the main." 2 Amtrak trains move through toward D.C. and a MARC train play musical sidings. i figure its about time that freight train moved out, but it was still in the hole. finally another Amtrak train rolls south and the freight soon follows. after the freight rolls past i hop in the car and drive to halethorpe. i found a way to get in where the B&O crosses the NEC so, i was sure to see some trains. 7 on the B&O and 2 Amtrak northbound and the southbound freight. in four hours of running around chasing trains, i managed to see 17 moving trains. the treat of the night was seeing a heavy freight rolling down the NEC being over taken by a south bound passenger train. wow. at midnight, i decided it was time went home. i walk in the door and my wife is in bed. a note on the fridge reads "i gave up on the ice cream. did you see any trains?" -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:56:28 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car assignments X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8c2b4d559aecce9d4b70932445332e3b from Rick Tipton's post: > By the 1960's, some of the wood-sheathed N6B's > (originally only used on the Panhandle Div, and then later the standard cabin > of Lines West) had migrated onto Lines East as local and work cabins. I'm > not sure whether this tells us Lines West now needed fewer cabins, or that > Lines East had lost a generation of its own wood-sheathed cars (N4, ND, NDa?) > to old age. The 1950's database at 'Keystone Crossings' five N6B's assigned to Hagerstown, MD near the south end of the Cumberland Valley branch, and one at Chambersburg, once the CV's operating HQ. One of the Hagerstown N6B's was in MoW (wreck train) service, but the others were assigned to general freight runs, probably peddler and local service from the looks of it. They don't seem to have been used on trains requiring helpers ... north bound coal drags (out of CUMBO Yard) got the N5-series, and that makes perfect sense. I believe there's a _Keytone_ article that observes Lines West cabins moved east (and steel cabins, west) in the wake of the post-WW1 consolidation and advent of the regional system. Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:51:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lake Boats (resolved questions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b5e2d021a4059f48cfb46e19a4202de6 The Wisconsin boat building location is Sturgeon Bay. Both the CSX car ferries Badger and Spartan were built there. As many as 20 ore boats winter there. The boat yard is Johnson Brothers and is in and out of operation these days. The problem with the Great Lakes is the rebound of wave action off shorelines for one. I rarely go out that there is not a chop rather than swells. There are more wrecks in Lake Erie than any other as the condition you describe with boats being supported on wave crests and not in the middle is a very serious concern. Most boats waste no time crossing lake Erie because it is very shallow - typically 30' - so a 15' wave uses all the water creating a 30' differential to the trough. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:25:48 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Accumate HO scale sized couplers announced at Chicago Show X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bd2b4a7831c84db0da643b5721e96709 Hello list, Did any of you that were lucky enough to go to the Chicago show see the new Accumate couplers that were announced at the show? As I understand it, Accurail said they were going to produce a smaller, closer to scale Accumate coupler. For the few of you unfamiliar with their current couplers, they're sold separately, but many of us will know them because they're the couplers that Red Caboose puts in their X29/clone boxcar kits. I use the regular Accumates extensively; I like them a lot because they seem less prone to drooping than some other manufacturers. They come in handy on some of my Roundhouse steamers which have coupler pockets cast into the metal frames (this is one of the cases where the Kadee plastic shank couplers, the McHenry/Bachmann EZ Mates, Accumates, and the other plastic couplers are priceless). Thanks in advance! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:48:21 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Re: Engine Number Check ? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 98614eb401f167b66dc5bb5dc4f239d1 --Boundary_(ID_+n17g11O1EUFcoT0tjE4vw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, If you're talking about the LIRR, their #41 was a G5s ten wheeler built at Altoona in June, 1929 and retired in November, 1951. This information comes from Ron Ziel's Long Island Heritage: the G5 1924-1955. Bowser makes a nice G5s; I numbered mine for the PRR 5741, which is preserved at the RR Museum of PA. Ziel's book has pictures of her with both the circle number plate in 1941 and a Keystone number plate in 1948. The 41 has a 110P82 tender (when this batch of LIRR engines was built, I believe that PRR sold LIRR tenders from M1 mountains, which were converted from 110P75 to class 110P82a for use with the hand fired G5s locomotives. The 41 lacks the pilot mounted air tank that appears on about half of the LIRR G5s engines and most of the PRR G5s engines. Now, if you're talking about the PRR, that's a little bit different. According to Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster, the last of 6 PRR engines to bear the number 41 was an I1s built by Juniata in December 1918. She was converted to an I1sa in 1943 and sold for scrap in January 1957. As I'm sure you know, she carried a round number plate her whole life. Modelling the early I1s engines without feedwater heaters will involve a lot of cutting on the Bowser I1s, which is a model of the Baldwin built engines, but it's not impossible. Hope this helps! Doug PRR 41 boxcar46 wrote: > Doug,Could you check and see what "Engine 41" was ? I know that > one of the engines run on the Long Island....But was just > curious...... Don't rush....but the next time you have the book out > ....If you would. Thanks, > Bill Knepper > PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) > End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. --Boundary_(ID_+n17g11O1EUFcoT0tjE4vw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill,

If you're talking about the LIRR, their #41 was a G5s ten wheeler built at Altoona in June, 1929 and retired in November, 1951.  This information comes from Ron Ziel's Long Island Heritage: the G5 1924-1955.  Bowser makes a nice G5s; I numbered mine for the PRR 5741, which is preserved at the RR Museum of PA.

Ziel's book has pictures of her with both the circle number plate in 1941 and a Keystone number plate in 1948.  The 41 has a 110P82 tender (when this batch of LIRR engines was built, I believe that PRR sold LIRR tenders from M1 mountains, which were converted from 110P75 to class 110P82a for use with the hand fired G5s locomotives.

The 41 lacks the pilot mounted air tank that appears on about half of the LIRR G5s engines and most of the PRR G5s engines.

Now, if you're talking about the PRR, that's a little bit different.  According to Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster, the last of  6 PRR engines to bear the number 41 was an I1s built by Juniata in December 1918.  She was converted to an I1sa in 1943 and sold for scrap in January 1957.  As I'm sure you know, she carried a round number plate her whole life.  Modelling the early I1s engines without feedwater heaters will involve a lot of cutting on the Bowser I1s, which is a model of the Baldwin built engines, but it's not impossible.

Hope this helps!

Doug

PRR 41

boxcar46 wrote:

 Doug,Could you check and see what "Engine 41" was ?    I know that one of the engines run on the Long Island....But was just curious...... Don't rush....but the next time you have the book out ....If you would. Thanks, 
Bill  Knepper
PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net)
End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa.
--Boundary_(ID_+n17g11O1EUFcoT0tjE4vw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Lake Boats (resolved questions) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:41:08 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: da04990ee81712763def2f24c840204b NDBPRR@aol.com scribit: > The Wisconsin boat building location is Sturgeon Bay. Thank you. Looks like I only got the initial "S" correct. I was wondering ... That's what happens when your notebook (and camera ...) are in the car, not on your person 24/7. > swells. There are more wrecks in Lake Erie than any other as the condition > you describe with boats being supported on wave crests and not in the middle > is a very serious concern. Most boats waste no time crossing lake Erie > because it is very shallow - typically 30' - so a 15' wave uses all the water > creating a 30' differential to the trough. And other interesting problems like storms pushing all the water to one end, like happened here (Cleve-Lorain-Toledo) in June, grounding several boats. Enough from me, getting way too far off topic. Self-censoring now. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:50:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Accumate HO scale sized couplers announced at Chicago X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1e54511395193acece1334a7fcfce230 In a message dated 11/11/99 11:37:09 AM Central Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Did any of you that were lucky enough to go to the Chicago show see the new Accumate couplers that were announced at the show? As I understand it, Accurail said they were going to produce a smaller, closer to scale Accumate coupler. >> Promised in January. As I indicated on another list, the combination of these couplers with the narrower tread wheels now available really takes us to another generation as far as models are concerned. Just put some Reboxx double insulated metal proto wheels on two brass cabin cars. I had temporarily replaced the original equipment wheels (way too wide) with plastic since they were the only cars bothering our DCC, but the new wheelsets seem to have solved the problem on two counts, narrower tread width and the double insulation. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] C&PD, A&S, track pans, Susquehanna Navy, FAST Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:00:19 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8fd4d326dd5a448b4529ca9a1e2bbab1 On 11 Nov, FredAbend@aol.com wrote: > [ ... ] > Susquehanna Navy above Safe Harbor dam: > [ ... ] Workers unloaded it > above the dam, conveyed it to a cleaning/drying building, conveyed it across > the Conestoga to a small yard for loading into coal cars. The railroad then > took it down to Holtwood for burning in the plant there. [ ... ] Is this the track that curves under the Port Road bridge, through pavement, in some pictures of the area? Dennis Rockwell SPF(N) dennis@bbn.com Cambridge MA Box cars, flat cars, going-to-North-Platte cars... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MSand17545@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:46:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Atglen and Susquehanna Branch This is what official at NS X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cfb13202f02e83f849ad459a84e9dac5 We are at this very moment reviewing what we want to do with this old right-of-way. It may have some value as a transportation corridor in the future, or it may be more valuable as a trail, or some other use. We are still trying to sort out what many of our newly acquired assets can mean to us and don't want to make any decisions that we'll regret later. Thanks for your interest. At 03:36 PM 11/8/99 EST, you wrote: > I live near the (Atglen and Susquehanna Branch) which is an abandon branch >of the former Pennsylvania railroad which Norfolk and Southern now owns. I >was wondering what's to come of it, I heard the railroad is planning to take >down its trestles (The Safe Harbor Trestle and the Martic forge trestle). Is >this true? Does Norfolk and Southern plan to keep ownership of this branch >even thought the tracks are gone and soon the trestles too? Thank You for >this valuable info it will help me out a lot. > Sincerely, > Graham Sanders ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stuthayer@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:46:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Accumate HO scale sized couplers announced at Chicago X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ba34b004e67e1a7503892d3595ad2256 In a message dated 11/11/99 10:37:09 AM Mountain Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Did any of you that were lucky enough to go to the Chicago show see the new Accumate couplers that were announced at the show? As I understand it, Accurail said they were going to produce a smaller, closer to scale Accumate coupler. >> I was there covering the show for Model Railroad News, and I got a chance to take a look at these new couplers. I am waiting to see what these couplers end up being like before I make a commitment to convert over to them. They are still not ready. I was told there is still a a little tweaking to be done. My initial observations indicate to me that they will not be compatible with any of the Kadee clones. However, I could be wrong. You are right in that they are smaller then the traditional Kadee, but they are detailed to better represent a real coupler. I was pretty excited by what I saw. Stuart Thayer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:01:06 -0500 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a8f299428e3097d13306f170adeb9b19 Frank Bagrash wrote: > Does anyone know the difference, if any, between a B60 and a B60B > baggage car. The LIRR had B60B's but not B60's and I wanted to know the > difference to see if the Eastern Car Works B60 kit would work for the > LIRR. Frank and list, Ignoring dimensional and hidden construction differences, there were several spotting features that distinguish B60 from B60B. All the B60 cars were built with clerestory roofs and four windows in the sides (besides those in the doors). Two windows were between the doors and one was approximately centered above each truck. All the B60B cars were built with deep arch roofs and none had windows in the sides other than those in the doors. At least one B60 was rebuilt with a shallow arch roof - #5740 in 1940. There may have been others. The pattern of splice plates in the sides also help define whether the car is a B60 or a B60B. Class B60 had two panels between the doors and three between the door and the end of the car. Class B60B had three panels between the doors and four between the door and the end. This meant that B60B had riveted splice plates approximately centered above the trucks and could never have had windows there. Over the years the windows were removed from the B60 cars, but the characteristic locations of the splice plates remained and help us to tell a B60 from a B60B. So, does this mean you're out of luck for the LIRR B60B? No, not at all. The Eastern Car Works kit #1010, which they call a B-60, is not a B60 at all. It is a B60B. I wish somebody would produce a nice kit of a true B60, which was an important PRR car, even if not quite as numerous as the B60B. Bob Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:43:39 -0500 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] keystones / cabin cars X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ae5efaf6e8eb42cd46cb0bc1fcb55f7f ELM2@aol.com wrote: > Burkhard and all, > I think if you have time to search through Jerry Britton's Cabin Car data > base you may find your answer. > There is no certain date for this roster but, we believe it represents the > late 1950's. Have a look and prepare to stay a while. > Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" Ed and list, The cabin car database mentioned above appears to be identical to the information in a cabin car assignment list that was given to me many years ago. The first page of the paper copy had the title and other wording: "System Cabin Car Assignments, Manager Freight Train Operations, Philadelphia, PA. May 15, 1957". So there is a specific date for the list. It's the only cabin car assignment list I have ever seen. I wish we could find more. Bob Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:51:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e7bedb887a8622c9f6264ddf2ec9fa55 Bob, Do you know of any photo of the B60's that show these windows still installed?. I have never seen one with windows. In what time period were the windows removed to more resemble what we know a B60 looks like?....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger car question Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:15:56 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 783a517fc1397b6539cc71377fac8f8e Gary and all, On page 6 of Wayner's 'The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad' there is a photo of what appears to be a B60, #7298. "Pennsylvania Lines" appears on the letterboard. It is also lettered "United States Mail Storage". It matches Bob's description of windows and body panels. Andy -----Original Message----- Bob, Do you know of any photo of the B60's that show these windows still installed?. I have never seen one with windows. In what time period were the windows removed to more resemble what we know a B60 looks like?....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:48:22 +0000 From: Albert Alecknavage II Subject: [PRR] C&PD Trip Info Request X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 87055eb2073b86512cd0e3e26eec280a Greetings to the list. A big thank-you is in order to all of the friendly, knowledgable listers who helped to relieve me of my ignorance. The Port Road, I now realize, is very far from my usual sort of railfan experience. Actually, it seems like my Saturday is going to be more like the first 15 minutes of "Raiders of the Lost Ark"! Here's hoping the weather cooperates... Albert Alecknavage II ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:22:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pans and catenary X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: da6a8336af70776a959c342d3de247ed In addition to my original question I have to wonder if any precautions had to be taken to prevent grounding from water spray such as when the tender would be filled completely with possible blowout of the tender hatch from water pressure? Could there have been some restrictions as to speed or how full to fill a tank? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:18:24 EST Subject: [PRR] A&S High Voltage and Safe Harbor tracks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 345148e752b8fd4ebc510f067feb891a Mark is right about the catenary on the A&S. It's gone, but the high voltage lines at the top of the cat poles remain. I speculate that the lines' importance is going up now that Amtrak is going to upgrade the Keystone Philly-Harrisburg service andstart using AEM7s back on the line. As far as the tracks at Safe Harbor are concerned here's the way the tracks went for the coal. Down river from the Conestoga's mouth a line left the C&PD and, running between the Port Road and the Susquehanna, descended until it ducked under the Port Road and A&S near the Conestoga. The line crossed the access road to Safe Harbor dam and ended in a small yard that sat beside the Conestoga. This is where the coal loading facility was. So a train with loaded hoppers would leave the yard, pass under the A&S and C&PD, run upgrade, get on to the Port Road, and proceed down to Holtwood. The above I documented years ago in a sketch I did. What follows is from memory. Off the above line, near the Conestoga and the access road, another line split, crossed the access bridge over the Conestoga and went back to the lower level of the dam. I believe this was for bringing large equipment back to the dam's power house although I never saw it used. This is the line you'll most likely see in photos I believe. Hope this helps. --Fred A. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger car question Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:24:53 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c0bd74bd5dd9c416e022ad49193612f6 Although I am surely not educated on B60 or B60B cars at all I believe I've found one in original paint about two weeks ago. In the yard at the Middletown and Hummelstown Railroad in Middletown, PA. I'm probably wrong but I believe the number is 9276 and it has the star above the number. If anyone is really interested I can go over there during lunch and verify the number. Kris > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert L. Johnson [SMTP:rjohnson@capslock.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 10:01 PM > To: Frank Bagrash > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car question > > Frank Bagrash wrote: > > > Does anyone know the difference, if any, between a B60 and a B60B > > baggage car. The LIRR had B60B's but not B60's and I wanted to know the > > difference to see if the Eastern Car Works B60 kit would work for the > > LIRR. > > Frank and list, > > Ignoring dimensional and hidden construction differences, there were > several > spotting features that distinguish B60 from B60B. All the B60 cars were > built with clerestory roofs and four windows in the sides (besides those > in > the doors). Two windows were between the doors and one was approximately > centered above each truck. All the B60B cars were built with deep arch > roofs and none had windows in the sides other than those in the doors. At > least one B60 was rebuilt with a shallow arch roof - #5740 in 1940. There > may have been others. > > The pattern of splice plates in the sides also help define whether the car > is a B60 or a B60B. Class B60 had two panels between the doors and three > between the door and the end of the car. Class B60B had three panels > between the doors and four between the door and the end. This meant that > B60B had riveted splice plates approximately centered above the trucks and > could never have had windows there. Over the years the windows were > removed > from the B60 cars, but the characteristic locations of the splice plates > remained and help us to tell a B60 from a B60B. > > So, does this mean you're out of luck for the LIRR B60B? No, not at all. > The Eastern Car Works kit #1010, which they call a B-60, is not a B60 at > all. It is a B60B. I wish somebody would produce a nice kit of a true > B60, > which was an important PRR car, even if not quite as numerous as the B60B. > > Bob Johnson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 04:37:31 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin car assignments X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e63d1984521b4f7265ec4f17b682acca --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > By the 1960's, some of the > wood-sheathed N6B's > (originally only used on the Panhandle Div, and then > later the standard cabin > of Lines West) had migrated onto Lines East as local > and work cabins. Rather earlier, I think. Often saw an N6B on the local freight which served the team tracks and Ligonier Valley interchange in Latrobe, PA. That was certainly before 1948 (for we moved away from Railroad St. in '48). At the same time, the Ligonier Valley had an NC. Remember seeing both N6B and NC sitting side-by-side. Remarked on the similarity. Only years later learned that the N6B probably had been an NC once upon a time. I've always assumed the appearance of what I later learned was Lines West equipment was due to the demand for equipment brought on by WW2 (the big one). As I recall, N6B's and locomotives with Lines West tenders were common enough on the Pittsburgh Division during the war years that they did not excite much comment. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:37:03 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: Re: [PRR] A&S High Voltage and Safe Harbor tracks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 95ad08ddf2ee3de204ca99b334c0c1f2 This is just speculation on my part. Since the A&S was used to provide 25 Hz juice to the Phila. line (from the Safe Harbor Dam) and since Safe Harbor no longer produces 25 Hz, why would Amtrak need the A&S high voltage circuit. Now more speculation on my part, since Amtrak is buying commercial 60 Hz at various locations and feeding the new Boston project with 60 Hz, would it not make more sense to abandon the A&S/Port road high voltage circuit in favor of commercial transmission? Could it also be that in the purchase of the Harrisburg line from Conrail, that only the high voltage circuit was transferred to Amtrak, Conrail kept control of the catenary - and when abandoned - they could economically recover the cat. Amtrak may be responsible for the rest - and if the high voltage circuit comes down, someone (read government) may require that the poles come down also. This would cost Amtrak a lot of money and I think that they just can't justify the expense on an abandoned line. Cos FredAbend@aol.com wrote: > Mark is right about the catenary on the A&S. It's gone, but the high voltage > lines at the top of the cat poles remain. I speculate that the lines' > importance is going up now that Amtrak is going to upgrade the Keystone > Philly-Harrisburg service andstart using AEM7s back on the line. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:02:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] A&S High Voltage and Safe Harbor tracks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 618cd8ca72e50496522226cdfa2327ea Maybe, but PRR/PC/Conrail/Amtrak always liked getting power from Safe Harbor as it was the cheapest source. The last I toured Safe Harbor (back before CR abandoned A&S if I remember correctly) the dam had the ability to put out 25 Hz or easily switch that electricity over to 60 Hz for their other customers. I don't know how difficult it would be to get the 60 Hz to Amtrak's transmission lines. If Safe Harbor can easily do that, then much of the economics comes down to the length of transmission to the Main Line and the inexpensive (relatively) power from the dam vs. other closer commercial sources. PP&L also is traditionally cheaper than PECO. And then there is the wild card of deregeulation... It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. --Fred A. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:16:14 -0500 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a449c40a85697e05c728f06c76970e77 Andy Cich wrote: > Gary and all, > On page 6 of Wayner's 'The Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad' > there is a photo of what appears to be a B60, #7298. "Pennsylvania Lines" > appears on the letterboard. It is also lettered "United States Mail > Storage". It matches Bob's description of windows and body panels. Andy and list, Technically, the car mentioned above is class MS60. It differed from B60 only in having stanchions inside for hanging mail sacks, the lettering "United States Mail Storage" instead of an express company, and the bars in the windows. MS60 cars were later (ca. 1931?) converted to B60. Bob Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:24:31 -0500 From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM (Keith B. Thompson - Sun) Subject: [PRR] Track work X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 87c8fee35efc6027ccf4814911e43977 Hello, I have a couple of questions, perhaps someone can help point me in the correct direction. First I'm modeling some 1949 PRR mainline in S (1:64) scale. I would like to know what the appropiate size rail would be? I can get code 100 or 125 for hand laying pretty easily. I don't know what the # rail PRR used and realy would not know the conversion even if i did :( Second, I am looking for a source of information on track details, like fish plates, brackets, tie plates, details around switches, crossovers etc. so I can add these details to my track. Unfortunate I am not near any 1949 track to go out and take a look! Thanks, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:48:42 -0500 From: "Robert L. Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ff7406141ba4c5ed3c8806f1672f5796 Gary Mittner wrote: > Bob, > > Do you know of any photo of the B60's that show these windows still > installed?. I have never seen one with windows. In what time period were > the windows removed to more resemble what we know a B60 looks > like?....Gary Gary and list, In addition to the MS60 Andy posted, I can offer the following. In "Pennsy Power III" at the top of page 369 is a photo of B60 5518 with windows. The caption says mid-1930's, but it's more likely to be mid-teens to early twenties. Adams Express changed to American Railway Express in 1918. It's my impression that such lettering changes occurred fairly rapidly in passenger equipment. The presence of opal glass in the Pullman combine also indicates a date earlier than mid-1930's. Other B60 cars with windows can often be found in photos of early twentieth century PRR passenger trains. For example, see "Pennsy Power III" at the bottom of page 158 and the top of page 155. A note on PRR tracing C68288B "B60, MS60 General Arrangement" says "Windows have been removed 4-25-1924". This means removed from the drawing, of course. It took a long time to remove them from all the cars. Often this was done in gradual steps. The first step was to replace the glass with sheet metal - painted Tuscan Red. The next step was to put a metal plate over the outside of the window frames. Then the window frames were often cut out and replaced by a welded insert. Finally, when the side sheets were replaced, all trace of the windows disappeared (other than the characteristic location of the side sheet splice plates, of course). The 1937 photo of B60 5753 on page 8 of "Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book" shows a car with plated-over windows. By the way, the drawing on the next page of the book is really a B60B, not a B60. Bob Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track work Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:02:36 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a9f63cec8bb32e561c3c001542395c3c KBT: I think that the code 100 rail would be closer to the 130PS (6") and the 131RE, 133RE, and the 140RE rail that the PRR was using in the late 1940's on their main lines. The 131, 133, and 140 pound rail was in the vicinity of 7" to 7-1/8" tall. The code 125 rail would be the best for the 152PS and 155PS (8" approx.) rail that the PRR used. I believe that the Pennsy used this rail, the the most part, on their mainlines in central and western Pennsylvania to accommodate the heavy coal and ore traffic. Howvever, the 131, 133, and 140 rail were being used on mainlines throughout Pennsylvania too. I hope that this helps. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM [mailto:thompson@ridgeback.East.Sun.COM] Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:25 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Track work Hello, I have a couple of questions, perhaps someone can help point me in the correct direction. First I'm modeling some 1949 PRR mainline in S (1:64) scale. I would like to know what the appropiate size rail would be? I can get code 100 or 125 for hand laying pretty easily. I don't know what the # rail PRR used and realy would not know the conversion even if i did :( Second, I am looking for a source of information on track details, like fish plates, brackets, tie plates, details around switches, crossovers etc. so I can add these details to my track. Unfortunate I am not near any 1949 track to go out and take a look! Thanks, kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:03:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] RE: Passenger Car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c85c0926fdbf2f354d27cb8fcb70b106 Bob, Well done in documenting your statement. I cecked those pics in Pennsy Power 3 and thy show the details well. I would have never thought that was done on these cars. You taught me alot these past few hours....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:28:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cool Doings at "Keystone Crossings"? From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 40cb75b3966f1b036133a5c89baf9b6e Over the past 24 hours I did my first redesign of the main page of "Keystone Crossings" since its inception four plus years ago. I hope you like it. Comments are welcome. I am especially proud of a new gimmick I developed...Both the pop-up menu and the Site Search that were previously at the top of the page are now located below the links to within the site (to improve search engine visibility -- too much code at the top before). Instead of clicking on a "GO" button to execute these two functions, there now now PRR position light signals in the STOP position. When you move your mouse over one, it changes to a GO position! It then executes when you click on it. I think it's pretty darn cool...HTML and JavaScript. (Took me four hours to figure out the measly 14 lines of code!) I've only tested it with Macintosh Internet Explorer 4.5, so I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who can't get either to work. (Browsers 4.x w/JavaScript and above only, please.) BTW: The Site Search database is currently being re-indexed, so it will not return any records. Enjoy! P.S.: There's a lot coming soon. Randy Williamson has provided me with dozens of track charts for scanning. Also, Dave MacLean and I went together and secured 10 ETT's from 1954-55 which will be scanned in as well. Lot's of good information!!! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:56:38 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Track work X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 87b9c2f1250ddbd212623d37c4ef667f --- "Keith B. Thompson - Sun" wrote: > First I'm > modeling some 1949 PRR mainline in S (1:64) scale. > I would like to know what the appropiate size rail > would be? I can get code 100 or 125 for hand laying > pretty easily. I don't know what the # rail PRR used > and realy would not know the conversion even if i > did :( I don't have the dimensions of "real" rail to hand. In re the model rail: S scale 1/64" = 1", say .016" to the inch code 100 rail would represent rail 6 1/4" high code 125, 8" As I recall, 152 lb/yard rail is about 8" high. If nobody else does it before then, I'll check the Carnegie Shape Book this weekend. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:51:36 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal dredging? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2ab51753d3d4dc1938a27ce1312ccd57 Conan said >This is absolutely fascinating. Is there any reference material on this >subject? Transactions A.I.E.E., June 1927, pp815-826. "The Holtwood Steam Plant: Design and Operation in Coordination with Water Power" F.A. Allner. Electrical World, February 7, 1955, pp75-78. "Holtwood's New River Coal Unit" J.Q. Wray and R.R. Bennett. The later source (1955) says "To reclaim this coal, a 14" hydraulic suction dredged, barges, unloader, wharf, and coal-reclaiming plant were constructed at Safe Harbor at a cost of $6.2 million. Fifty carloads of coal a day are (Note use of present tense!-BFS) delivered to Holtwood on a five-day week basis." >The steam plant at Holtwood, did it provide a backup for electric production >in times of low water? When was it built? The plant went into operation in 1925, and with additions of new units (such as noted in the 1955 article) operated at least into the '80s. The steam plant was designed to take the "peak loads" in times of high flow, when the hydro plants handled the "base" power needs and conversely to take the "base" needs in times of low flow. Fred A said: >So a train with loaded hoppers would leave the yard, pass under the A&S >and C&PD, run >upgrade, get on to the Port Road, and proceed down to Holtwood I'm a gonna have to model this as part of my C&PD/A&S layout! The bridges at Safe Harbor now consist of THREE different levels!!!! WOW!!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:59:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Hello all. . . and "Helper help" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4f75ba5d374b5808d48e4025c6c08642 Hello Jerry and list. My name is Jon and I'm brand new to the list. I've got a question that I'm almost embarssed to ask. I've always known that helper locomotives on The Pennsy are called Snappers, but I've never known why. I've tried researching this but have never come up with any info on the subject. Can anyone help me with my helper / Snapper Question ? Thanks. Jon JONS6755@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/10/99 Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 20:06:15 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 44e4714f01ed09599008134008fb10f1 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Vagel Keller wrote: Subject: Re: [PRR] p-mikey??? From: Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 21:34:25 -0500 > into the 80's the Pmickey's passenger depot still existed at South Connellsville. > Still standing, although the viaduct was removed. >I think WM also used this depot. Correct. It was basically the end of the WM's Connellsville Extension (from Cumberland), but I understand that WM freight trains also ran west to a junction with the P&WV before N&W took control of that line, even though the terminal was at BOWEST Jct a little ways to the east. > Pennsylvania According to an employee of the general contracting firm that occupies the open land just to the west of the old P&LE (Pmickey) station, the dark red hip roofed station that sits along the highway was the PRR's station. 'best, Vagel Keller Hi Vagel: If you are referring to the building on the "West Side" of Connellsville, PA, i.e., West of the river (along new US Route 119) opposite the PMcK&Y station, it was not a PRR station. I think it was a P&LE station, but can't verify it. Unfortunately, the person who could verify whose station it really was, my Uncle, Lawrence P. Grass, former Yardmaster at BOWEST has gone to that Big Yard Office in the sky. The PRR station was in Connellsville proper on Pittsburgh Street , one or two blocks North of its crossing with Crawford Avenue (old US Route 119). The stub-end spur tracks to the PRR station crossed new US Route 119 about 1/4 to 1/2 mile East of the river. After crossing the river, the PRR tracks crossed old US Route 119 in the "West End" near the site of the Hagan Dairy plant. Furthermore, I believe Steve Long incorrectly called the area we are describing, South Connellsville. It is known as the "West Side." On the other hand, South Connellsville in on the East side of the river, South of Connellsville proper and near the B&O yards. The "West Side" is also the site of the former West Penn Power Co. car barns, maintenance & Repair shops and storage. The PRR probably serviced the WPPCo. Somewhere in that same area is a place called New Haven, which was the proposed terminus of the famous New Haven and Dunbar Railroad (NH&D). It never made it to New Haven. However, the PRR continued through Wheeler, Watts and then to the thriving metropolis of Dunbar, PA. I know all this because I am sometimes known as the "Dunbar Kid". I wear many hats. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:19:56 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger car question X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9ba42edf31d4296a695c58300eec2404 Gary and the list, It took some digging, but check out page 369 of Staufer's Pennsy Power 3. It shows B60 5518 with windows. Hope this helps! Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Bob, > > Do you know of any photo of the B60's that show these windows still > installed?. I have never seen one with windows. In what time period were > the windows removed to more resemble what we know a B60 looks > like?....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 19:30:02 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Design Roots of B70 baggage car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8f880e3de94b863bf2aa5ed7bbc94a1d Hello list, While scrounging up data for the B60 questions on the list, I came up with a question of my own. Does the relatively uncommon (compared to the numerous B60 class) B70 have any relationship, designwise, to the P70 coaches? For that matter, does the B60? According to my copy of Pennsylvania Railroad, Passenger Equipment roster, October 1, 1954, the B70 was a rare bird; there appear to be less than forty of them. The NJ International book Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book says on page 15 that the B70 design was "adopted" in 1924. What sort of service would PRR use these in preference to the B60? Thanks in advance! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 00:37:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Design Roots of B70 baggage car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5ad355d26a2efbec618bb398eff6c493 In a message dated 11/12/1999 7:37:46 PM Central Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Does the relatively uncommon (compared to the numerous B60 class) B70 have any relationship, designwise, to the P70 coaches? >> Someone else can comment if any B70's were built from scratch. My count could be off, but in approximate numbers, 21 were converted from M70s, 39 from BM70s. 45 B70b's (which appear to have 3 doors ala the B74B's) were converted from BM70's. Some were done by 1946. Some of the last conversions of BM70KA's to 23 B70b's and 1 to a B70 occured in the mid 50's. Source the Spring 93 Keystone article on RPOs. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:30:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Track work X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 378a91d9c59925482624a6c11c3feb7d Hi kbt, I model the Pennsy in S also. Ted Andrews' answer below is right on the money. Code 100 will be a little light for 130-lb, but will provide a good contrast to the 125, which is clearly acceptable only for the 152 lb. To convert model rail to S scale height, multiply the rail code by 64 and divide by 1000 to get the height in inches. 125 scales out to 8", for example. For detail materials -- fishplates, etc., there is not a lot available in S, but you can use Grandt O scale items and not be too far off. Lee Rainey "Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << I think that the code 100 rail would be closer to the 130PS (6") and the 131RE, 133RE, and the 140RE rail that the PRR was using in the late 1940's on their main lines. The 131, 133, and 140 pound rail was in the vicinity of 7" to 7-1/8" tall. The code 125 rail would be the best for the 152PS and 155PS (8" approx.) rail that the PRR used. Ted Andrews >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 07:42:11 -0600 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] Re: Cool doings at Keystone Crossings X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bd5d598a04c97a7d35f187cd76626fa8 Jerry > Instead of clicking on a "GO" button to execute these two functions, there > now now PRR position light signals in the STOP position. When you move your > mouse over one, it changes to a GO position! It then executes when you click > on it. I think it's pretty darn cool...HTML and JavaScript. (Took me four > hours to figure out the measly 14 lines of code!) > Tried it in Netscape 4.7, two comments, the signals are in stop position but appear GREEN in color, rather than clear (lunar) or RED They did not change when mouse was moved over, but work fine John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:43:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Lake Boats (resolved questions) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 88a384e2edd9393b970b2d2fc55ab3dd Mark, Isn't that one of the theories of the demise of the Edmund Fitzsgearld? Usually the lake waves are smaller as you say. But during that storm she sank in the waves were abnormally huge. Thus being a large boat as the Fitz was, she was not supported in the middle of 2 waves she was riding on and eventually cracked into 2 pieces. Lake boats were not intended for that kind of battering. As to the other theory behind the sinking it was this. The Fitz was what 800'-900' long? Now if you have a boat that long that is getting tossed around on 200 ft of water, somethings got to give. According to a documentary on TV, while riding those large waves the bow drop so low that it hit the bottom of the lake. Thus buckling the hull of the ship. Either theory sounds plausible. Well, thats far enough off topic for me to go....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] harrisburg eastern tower Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 06:22:56 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a0833bff91d4a85f24507706dbd3374f Jerry, do you have photos of the tower to the east of harrisburg station? On my recent visit in october I managed to get photos of it from all sides if you are interested. Do you know the name of the tower? Greg Stone PRRTHS member always interested in any info or photos of the Renovo yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 11:37:04 -0500 From: Christopher Chany Subject: Re: [PRR] harrisburg eastern tower X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: afb1a0ed6ff5662723393dcd0af69946 Greg, The tower to the East(railroad) is in the station proper. Harris tower is nearby but Railrod West. (I'm building a model of it and have stopped to get pictures often. Need some inside shots though) Unless your talking about a tower further east near the Pennsy supply yard? Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick" Subject: Re: [PRR] harrisburg eastern tower Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:24:37 PST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d4eb0ecd3c0c5137f3a96447daa0cccb Hi gentlemen and please excuse me for posting this wrong, but i have a question and i am new to this type of newsgroup. Does anyone know where i can get pictures of the old Metroliners? Also, at one time you could get a Metroliner HO train set. Anyone know where i could do that? Thanks for your help. ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:51:27 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] harrisburg eastern tower X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ba99b9d7ea6bb4f41dca7f71b58544f2 --Boundary_(ID_PDwYmP64BN4E/5sxqpNM3A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick and the list, By old, I'm assuming you mean the self-propelled MU Metroliners that proved to be reliability-challenged in service. Pennsy Electric Years has, on page 114, a great shot of a Metroliner consist led by the 813, still in PRR paint on 11 January 1969; the cars hadn't yet entered revenue service. Also, try Trains Magazine from the late 60s and early 70s; photos of the Metroliners are legion, especially in PC and Amtrak paint (which pretty much puts them outside this discussion list....). Bachmann made an HO and N Metroliner train set in the late 60s and early 70s; it was not noted for its reliability (nor, unfortunately, was the prototype). You may be able to find Metroliner sets and cars at large train shows, like the one at Timonium Maryland or the GATS shows. Hope this helps! Doug Rick wrote: > Hi gentlemen and please excuse me for posting this wrong, but i have a > question and i am new to this type of newsgroup. Does anyone know where i > can get pictures of the old Metroliners? Also, at one time you could get a > Metroliner HO train set. Anyone know where i could do that? Thanks for > your help. > > ________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". --Boundary_(ID_PDwYmP64BN4E/5sxqpNM3A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick and the list,

By old, I'm assuming you mean the self-propelled MU Metroliners that proved to be reliability-challenged in service.  Pennsy Electric Years has, on page 114, a great shot of a Metroliner consist led by the 813, still in PRR paint on 11 January 1969; the cars hadn't yet entered revenue service.

Also, try Trains Magazine from the late 60s and early 70s; photos of the Metroliners are legion, especially in PC and Amtrak paint (which pretty much puts them outside this discussion list....).

Bachmann made an HO and N Metroliner train set in the late 60s and early 70s; it was not noted for its reliability (nor, unfortunately, was the prototype).  You may be able to find Metroliner sets and cars at large train shows, like the one at Timonium Maryland or the GATS shows.

Hope this helps!

Doug

Rick wrote:

Hi gentlemen and please excuse  me for posting this wrong, but i have a
question and i am new to this type of newsgroup.  Does anyone know where i
can get pictures of the old Metroliners?  Also, at one time you could get a
Metroliner HO train set.  Anyone know where i could do that?  Thanks for
your help.

________________________________________________________________
Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com
Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com

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--Boundary_(ID_PDwYmP64BN4E/5sxqpNM3A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:59:14 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Crossing Changes X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1fe84c16c3068630fc4d2b1acb18da79 Hello Jerry and the list, Nice job on the site changes! Keep up the good work! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Evil Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] harrisburg eastern tower Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 11:59:00 PST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d688c4c02e48391017db2bc313b718ad www.nycsubway.org has some great historical photos of rail operatings around NYC. This includes photos of Metroliners. Go to http://www.nycsubway.org/commuter/amtk/amtkhs1.html and get what you need. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:58:51 -0500 From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Metroliners: X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 214660386b8bed94cc32f3e5390ab44e Gem imported a them in the mid 70's. They came in sets, one powered and one unpowered. By today standards they are kind of bland, but a great place to start. Not sure what the typical price is - I have seen them at shows for around $100.00. A picture of them appears in "The Brown Book" on page 155. Cos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 14:07:51 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 276c8b4aa213ef00958ba94832c7a7ce Hello list, I wanted to add a front coupler to my recently purchased Mantua Atlantic. Mine is the nominally collectible PRR Lindbergh Atlantic, numbered for E6s 460, though it's really an E3sa/E7s as it comes from the box. Adding the rear coupler was a cakewalk; I dropped a McHenry KS coupler right in to the tender. The front coupler was a little trickier, but still doable. Note that I value operation over mint condition; those that consider this a true collectible will no doubt be shocked by my actions. I unscrewed the dummy coupler and set it aside. Then, I tried stuffing in a Kadee 37 (underset regular shank) in its own box to see if it would fit, but it was too fat. Next, I tried a Kadee 37 in a #5 box, and this was thinner, but still required filing. I filed the opening in the pilot until the coupler box would fit (it's wide enough, but not deep enough). It went relatively quickly; my needle files sliced through the zinc frame/pilot casting in short order. I drilled out the original screw hole with a #50 bit and used a long self-tapping screw to tap the hole for a 2-56 screw. With that out of the way, I slid the coupler box into place and used a short screw to secure it. I have a few minor scrapes on the pilot from my filing; black paint will take care of that in short order. Now I can have double headed Atlantics (or I will, once my Bowser/MDC E6s is finished). Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:59:57 -0500 From: jpbtrans Subject: [PRR] Harrisburg Tower X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 1082ba541d5a505ed14c242565cfd06f Hello List, Wasn't the tower near the station in Harrisburg: "Cork" If not, where was this one located? Jon (jpbtrans@gateway.net) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Evil Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Tower Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 15:10:16 PST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e649fae602cadd1c8fc422e4bb967497 CORK is in Lancaster. The east side of Harrisburg station was controled by STATE which is located inside the depot. The west side of the station was controled by HARRIS which is a seperate tower. Now STATE controls everything. Go to this site for track diagrams and tower interior pics. http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/C-index.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:18:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Tower X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7d205d2d44c92f7859fbcabeee797336 I think Cork tower is in Lancaster. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:55:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners: X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: af0e2b90e5ce8180378c7017875b7ed7 Anybody beside me who has repainted these and operates them for the PRR? When first delivered they were in PRR paint and pictures are very hard to come by. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Tower Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:02:02 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a5a212818a4c00876f5384ec7b92258e Evil Mike scribit: > > CORK is in Lancaster. Correct. Almost certainly named for the nearby Armstrong Cork Company. I say "almost certainly" because I've never seen any official PRR document saying so. > The east side of Harrisburg station was controled by > STATE which is located inside the depot. Right. Looking at the south (RR-east) wall of the station from the employee (lower) parking lot, STATE occupies the rightmost 90% or so of the station, at the level of the drive-up from Mulberry St. The leftmost 10% is a stairwell to the upper level, where the Power Director (Load Dispatcher) is. (BTW, I've heard both terms for the latter position - can anyone clarify?) Just "inward" from STATE is the relay room -- impressive in and of itself. > The west side of the station was > controled by HARRIS which is a seperate tower. Specifically, HARRIS was/is a separate building. > Now STATE controls everything. (what is left of the Amtrak portion of HARRIS). > Go to this site for track diagrams and tower interior pics. > http://members.aol.com/amtrakmaps/C-index.html For older maps, go to my site: http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk and click on the Philadelphia--Harrisburg main line. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners: Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:16:08 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2db2851c288c18ef1c98f4195d4cf2aa When they were first delivered, they came with the PRR keystone logos. I don't believe that they ever operated in revenue service on the Pennsy explaining the lack of pictures. As delivered by Budd, there was a problem with the doors opening unexpectedly while at speed. Budd hired a consultant (I believe J. W. Marchetti, Co. which later became part of the Budd Co.) to assist in identifying and correcting the problem. The cars used for testing were kept at Morrisville and ran between there and New Brunswick while testing, usually at night. Rumor was that it took so long to find the problem because they did not turn the test equipment on until the problem occurred...too late to identify the cause. By the time that the problems were worked out, PRR was PC and most of the cars were in the PC dress. My Father was a management consultant to J. W. Marchetti and I got to go with him an two trips to Morrisville during the layovers. The interiors at that time contained no seat cushions or other amenities...just a lot of test gear. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, November 14, 1999 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners: >Anybody beside me who has repainted these and operates them for the PRR? >When first delivered they were in PRR paint and pictures are very hard to >come by. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:34:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] harrisburg eastern tower X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c7799ddb6d895dcd6986a618c10a57cc In a message dated 11/14/1999 1:53:50 PM Central Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << Bachmann made an HO and N Metroliner train set in the late 60s and early 70s; it was not noted for its reliability (nor, unfortunately, was the prototype). >> When I was modelling the modern era, I considered using the Bachmann cab car (unpowered) as a start for the push-pull cab car on the end of one or the other of the Amtrak Chicago-Michigan trains. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:37:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 97840e2f4a4818c937b28e2242417a3f In a message dated 11/14/1999 2:17:01 PM Central Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << I filed the opening in the pilot until the coupler box would fit (it's wide enough, but not deep enough). >> Perhaps the new proto coupler from Accumate will eliminate this need. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] tower at harrisburg Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 19:53:00 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 801e7d3c901bea96c8b673a5e27a37b4 The tower I was speaking of is located just east from the station. The tower to the west is an all brick building which has been restored, Harris tower I believe it is known as. The tower I photograhed is right in the middle of the triangle of three tracks. One track passes over the other as it passes the tower. The one it passes over heads up and towards the station. The third track diverges from the flyover track then also heads towards the station. The tower has its windows blocked closed. It is a larger tower then harris tower in that it is longer. Jerry are you aware of this tower? Are you interested in copies of the photos? --Greg Stone member PRRTHS always looking for info or photos on the Renovo yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:32:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] tower at harrisburg From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7e958f4fa906a57ba8c8ece59043d3c8 On 11/14/99 10:53 PM, Greg Stone (gas@fastinet.net) wrote: > The tower I was speaking of is located just east from the station. The tower > to the west is an all brick building which has been restored, Harris tower I > believe it is known as. > The tower I photograhed is right in the middle of the triangle of three > tracks. One track passes over the other as it passes the tower. The one it > passes over heads up and towards the station. The third track diverges from > the flyover track then also heads towards the station. The tower has its > windows blocked closed. It is a larger tower then harris tower in that it is > longer. > Jerry are you aware of this tower? Are you interested in copies of the > photos? Congratulations...I think you have photographed and are speaking of the former Reading RR tower!!! As far as I know, this is the only remaining tower east of the station. Let's try some ASCII. West is top. Reading Cumberland Valley Branch | | | | STATE/ | \ station HARRIS ---------|--------------PRR Mains-------------------------- ---------|--------------PRR Mains-------------------------- WESTBOUND ---------|--------------PRR Mains-------------------------- / / / * / /-------------/ / Reading (to Rutherford Yard) Is the "*" above the tower you are referring to? If so, it is a Reading tower. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal dredging? Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 01:39:28 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 15fafaeff991e38729d66bfb8adc08b3 On 12 Nov, "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > The later source (1955) says "To reclaim this coal, a 14" hydraulic suction > dredged, barges, unloader, wharf, and coal-reclaiming plant were > constructed at Safe Harbor at a cost of $6.2 million. Fifty carloads of > coal a day are (Note use of present tense!-BFS) delivered to Holtwood on a > five-day week basis." That's a serious coal stream; they did this for *years*? > Fred A said: > >So a train with loaded hoppers would leave the yard, pass under the A&S > >and C&PD, run > >upgrade, get on to the Port Road, and proceed down to Holtwood > > I'm a gonna have to model this as part of my C&PD/A&S layout! The bridges > at Safe Harbor now consist of THREE different levels!!!! WOW!!! There's a good overview of this site in Pennsy Electric Years (Volkmer), bottom of page 48, which shows both bridges (A&S, C&PD), plus the tracks on both sides of the Conestoga. The track downstream from the Conestoga might have been taken up when this shot was taken (1968), but where it used to be is clearly visible. I've been arguing with myself ever since I got the book whether there was a track or not on that side, but Fred's message clinched it. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:41:19 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] tower at harrisburg X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b9276a9d81f7dc38e44d58c6c3bc671c Greg Stone wrote: > > The tower I was speaking of is located just east from the station. The tower > to the west is an all brick building which has been restored, Harris tower I > believe it is known as. > The tower I photograhed is right in the middle of the triangle of three > tracks. One track passes over the other as it passes the tower. The one it > passes over heads up and towards the station. The third track diverges from > the flyover track then also heads towards the station. The tower has its > windows blocked closed. It is a larger tower then harris tower in that it is > longer. > Greg and the list: This is Capitol interlocking, on the former Reading, where the RDG "connection" (and former lead to the RDG passenger station) joins the convergence of the former RDG Lebanon Valley Branch (CR Harrisburg Line) to Hershey, Lebanon, and Reading and the former RDG PH&P (Philadelphia, Harrisburg & Pittsburgh) Branch to Shippensburg adn Chambersburg and by extension, Hagerstown, Md., also known as the Lurgan Branch. The tower is a former RDG structure. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:48:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Hello all. . . and "Helper help" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 058a0d89acc637813494942fdb280a31 We went through this a while ago - I've been around a lot longer and my question was a bit more complex: Were all helpers "Snappers" or were all "Snappers" helpers? I was of the opinion that a Snapper was a push out of the yards - as differentiated from an over the road Helper, union rules pay books etc etc The answers I got back were mostly "It depends" on where you were and when you were there -" So the best answer is that a "Snapper" is a helper on the PRR the way a Cabin Car is what most folks call a Caboose. Personally, I think a Snapper was an engine that provided the jump start to get a train out of the yards - and I would hold my use of the word to that - But there were many other opinions and citations by "The List" that provided much broader answers. I don't know how deep you want to delve, it's in the archives, and there was a LOT of it ! Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Griffin Subject: [PRR] RE: Renovo News Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 07:58:38 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 44583a23b5655897e30feaea8bd7aad7 Hi All, Wayne, great info. However, without trying to be crass, the Buffalo Line was not double tracked all the way from Williamsport to Buffalo. I have 1945 Track Charts that show several stretches of single track on this run. One that is of the most interest to me, is the stretch between HY interlocking (Huntley) and SG Interlocking (Sterling Run). HY was north of Driftwood, and both were controlled from DR (Driftwood). I think this makes for some very challenging operation, and intend to model the area faithfully as part of my Renovo to Emporium layout. While we're on the subject, does anyone have Track Charts for the Williamsport Division from circa 1940. I'd like to trade copies of the Renovo Yard area north to the Renovo Division Line. In exchange, I'll offer a similar number of pages from the Buffalo Division or Renovo Division Track Charts Does anyone have a picture of the Passenger Station at Emporium? This will be a focal point in my modeled version on Emporium. Wayne, if you get up to "Gods Country" again and take any pictures, I'd love to see them. - John - John Griffin Senior IT Analyst Computer Support Services CAE Electronics Ltd. pho: 514.341.2000 x3332 fax: 514.340.5583 net: griffin@cae.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:35:22 EST Subject: [PRR] THE WRECK OF THE EDMUND FITZGERALD: NOVEMBER 10 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bad2d97ae709ddd291549e9ada96d498 In a message dated 11/13/99 8:51:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << According to a documentary on TV, while riding those large waves the bow drop so low that it hit the bottom of the lake. Thus buckling the hull of the ship. Either theory sounds plausible. Well, thats far enough off topic for me to go....Gary "Or she might have dove deep and hit bottom" As a former (two summers = thirty years ago) Lakes Sailor I believe that it's much more likely that the boat bottomed out, crossing the shoals and sunk when the cargo absorbed the water coming through the hatch covers and the cargo. ANYWAY, I just wanted to say that the Gordon Lightfoot song is probably one of the greatest "Wreck" songs of all time. Knowing the VAST liberties taken with many Railroad wreck songs - The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald is accurate as far I know and the haunting "up - over and down" pitch and roll melody could only have been written by a person who has actually sailed. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:23:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Happenings From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 19e9bfe7a10f28d11368204494abbf4d Was at the Northern Central Chapter, PRRT&HS meeting yesterday... * The New Freedom station restoration is coming along beautifully, with special thanks to PRR-Talk's Bill Knepper who is one of the coordinators of the project. The outside is done and painted and looks fantastic! They are currently fitting the footers that will support the deck. The interior will be the next job. Part of the inside will be used as a history of the railroad. * The Hanover Junction station is next to be restored. It is hoped to restore it and use part of it as a regional Civil War museum. Remember, this is where the famous photo was taken of President Lincoln on his way to deliver the Gettysburg Address. The chapter agreed to sponsor the placement of holiday "greens" on the station via the park service. * It was reported that the Howard Tunnel is the oldest active railroad tunnel in the world. Some claim! Meetings in 2000 will be Feb. 13, Apr. 9, Sep. 10, and Nov. 12. I will post a separate message about the status of the 2000 National Convention. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:35:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS 2000 Convention Plans From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c42bbeecc5b3be3d9741b684b94b21e5 The Northern Central Chapter is hosting the 2000 National Convention of the PRRT&HS, to be held May 4-6 at the Radison/Penn Harris in Camp Hill, Pa. Planning seems to be coming along well, under the direction of chapter president Bill Lewis and Ivan Franz. All is subject to change, but here is what is currently in the pipeline: Potential Sessions (offered by uncommitted as yet): PRR Advertising Final Years of the GG-1 at Sunnyside Covered Hopper Car Lettering GP7's and GP9's (w/modeling) Lake Erie Ore Docks Lines West "So You Want To Save..." (restoration how to) How "The Keystone" is produced Tour: Only tour so far is the Pennsylvania State Archives. Included will be not only a tour, but time to research. Unfortunately, limited to 20 people (by lottery). The good news, they've committed to offer this tour for the three years the convention is in Camp Hill, so 60 will get to go. Model Railroading: 1. Special Open House of the Keystone Model Railroad Historical Society. Nite to be determined. 2. Several modular layouts to be on-site. Improvements: 1. Shorter sessions. 45-60 minutes. 2. Microphones for all speakers! Current Schedule: Thursday Vendor Room Session 1 (evening) Open Slide Show Friday Vendor Room all day Model Room all day Session 2 (afternoon) Session 3 (afternoon) Session 4 (evening) Saturday Business Meeting Vendor Room all day Model Room all day Tour of State Archives (1-4 p.m., limit 20 people) Session 5 (afternoon) Session 6 (afternoon) Dinner Session 7 (evening) (PRR Advertising) Sunday HARRIS Tower open house for trainwatching (afternoon) Watch the Northern Central Chapter web site for updates: http://prrths-ncc.pennsyrr.com --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] tower at harrisburg Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:20:15 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6d782631e6bc8a9b8e19e6c718cf0d00 Greg Stone scribit: > > The tower I was speaking of is located just east from the station. The tower > to the west is an all brick building which has been restored, Harris tower I > believe it is known as. > The tower I photograhed is right in the middle of the triangle of three > tracks. One track passes over the other as it passes the tower. The one it > passes over heads up and towards the station. The third track diverges from > the flyover track then also heads towards the station. The tower has its > windows blocked closed. It is a larger tower then harris tower in that it is > longer. > Jerry are you aware of this tower? Are you interested in copies of the > photos? > --Greg Stone OOOOOHHHH. THAT tower. That's CAPITOL tower. (I think it's CAPITOL, may be CAPITAL.) It's a Reading, not Pennsy, tower. Been boarded up and closed for years, since at least back when I started railfanning in 1978 or thereabouts. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:49:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 284ec7f6736285d01082a88318416e89 Yesterday at the Northern Central Chapter (PRRT&HS) meeting, one of the guys shared the rumor that Norfolk Southern is "seriously considering" reopening the Enola Yard as a major classification yard, including the retracking of the eastbound yard. I offer two observations: 1. Do they need more room to park trains? 2. Will they innovate and reinstall the catenary? ;-) Along those lines, Ivan Franz made a prediction that, not knowing when, but in his lifetime, NS will buy the land and make a curve connection so that eastbounds on the former Reading line can turn north/west on the west side of the Susquehanna so as to enter Enola from the south. Apparently NS is already using the existing Reading/Cumberland Valley connection with backing moves to get trains into Enola to avoid a Harrisburg runaround. Hmmm! Certainly sounds feasible. The Reading line is certainly higher in elevation, but they could build a grade that would ease down to the former Northern Central tracks, pass through where LEMO was, continue downgrade to join the A&S/Low-Grade/York Haven (your choice of names) line at STELLA, and on into the south of Enola. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:37:07 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: becc5e554020b6d425c1780f0a6d04d8 Jerry Britton scribit: > I offer two observations: > 1. Do they need more room to park trains? > 2. Will they innovate and reinstall the catenary? ;-) Hey! Everyone knows that Microsoft "innovate"d the catenary, after Al Gore "invented" it! :-) :-) :-) (Apologies to John Cooper -- I just couln't help myself.) > Along those lines, Ivan Franz made a prediction that, not knowing when, but > in his lifetime, NS will buy the land and make a curve connection so that > eastbounds on the former Reading line can turn north/west on the west side > of the Susquehanna so as to enter Enola from the south. This connection has been pathetically easy to create from day 1. > Apparently NS is already using the existing Reading/Cumberland Valley > connection with backing moves to get trains into Enola to avoid a Harrisburg > runaround. Right, and the book _History of the Cumberland Valley Railroad_ -- an excellently researched tome -- spells out why this connection went in the way it did: to give the RDG trouble. Of course, in the end, it hurt the CV, as RDG picked up their proverbial football and built their own bridge to play with. Now, anyone who's been to the area knows that the RDG and CV could easily be connected by buying somewhere between 2 and 4 properties in Camp Hill (I think), one of which is a feed mill or some such contraption. Yes, it would cost $$$, but they could potentially abandon a bridge, or keep the bridge for hot run-through traffic. A forward, rather than reverse, connection to the CVRR would be effected. Granted, given the times, the town would have a cow about the grade crossing, and no doubt, a bridge would have to be built as well. Anyway, once on the CV, one would simply follow the traditional route to LEMO, around the NW wye, and down into Enola. Heck, it's only money. > Hmmm! Certainly sounds feasible. The Reading line is certainly higher in > elevation, but they could build a grade that would ease down to the former > Northern Central tracks, pass through where LEMO was, continue downgrade to > join the A&S/Low-Grade/York Haven (your choice of names) line at STELLA, and > on into the south of Enola. This is harder to do in my entirely blissfully ignorant yet somewhat humble opinion. Take a good look at the height of the bluffs (dare I call it that?) where the RDG jumps off the west shore and onto the bridge. Dang tough to fit a nice broad curve in there, let alone having a place to put it while descending to the NC. I think my solution's better. Question for the experts (Al?): Each track of a line that is timetable east-west has a north rail and south rail, and other directions are given relative to timetable direction. Understand that. Now, if an E-W line crosses a N-S line, then one has (potentially) a NW wye, SE wye, NE wye, and SW wye. But what happens if the crossing tracks are both E-W or both N-S? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:53:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: df5650207c5535fa74eb2e4f449d06de On 11/15/99 2:37 PM, Mark Bej (bejm@eeg.ccf.org) wrote: > Now, anyone who's been to the area knows that the RDG and CV could easily be > connected by buying somewhere between 2 and 4 properties in Camp Hill (I > think), > one of which is a feed mill or some such contraption. Yes, it would cost $$$, > but they could potentially abandon a bridge, or keep the bridge for hot > run-through traffic. A forward, rather than reverse, connection to the CVRR > would be effected. Granted, given the times, the town would have a cow > about the grade crossing, and no doubt, a bridge would have to be built as > well. Anyway, once on the CV, one would simply follow the traditional route > to LEMO, around the NW wye, and down into Enola. Mark: I see where you are talking about connecting...about a mile west of the river, in the neighborhood of the Lemoyne Plaza shopping center, where the two lines are only about 200 yards apart. While that would be nice for the railroad, it will never happen. True, only a couple of properties would be needed...and they'd probably sell, the township would never allow a crossing of that road, Hummel Avenue, which is extremely busy. Furthermore, it would not be feasible to build that road up to cross over the new connection. Where Ivan is referring to, which would be feasible, is a curve right where the Reading meets the Susquehanna...AT the river. The Reading line is right alongside I-83/Rt. 581. As soon as it passes under Bridge Street (or whatever they call it at the Lemoyne exit) there would be a gentle curve to the left, bringing it approximately 90-degrees and lowering down onto the Northern Central grade, which it would meet right about where LEMO tower stood. This route would bound on a sewage treatment plant, but I don't think it would need to pass through it. It is probably a very feasible alignment. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:26:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Equipment dislocations X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5807bd903b5ae88e947858c9c46f7b59 In a message dated 11/12/99 7:45:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > By the 1960's, some of the > wood-sheathed N6B's > (originally only used on the Panhandle Div, and then > later the standard cabin > of Lines West) had migrated onto Lines East as local > and work cabins. Rather earlier, I think. Often saw an N6B on the local freight which served the team tracks and Ligonier Valley interchange in Latrobe, PA. That was certainly before 1948 (for we moved away from Railroad St. in '48). At the same time, the Ligonier Valley had an NC. Remember seeing both N6B and NC sitting side-by-side. Remarked on the similarity. Only years later learned that the N6B probably had been an NC once upon a time. I've always assumed the appearance of what I later learned was Lines West equipment was due to the demand for equipment brought on by WW2 (the big one). As I recall, N6B's and locomotives with Lines West tenders were common enough on the Pittsburgh Division during the war years that they did not excite much comment. >> Glad of the correction -- must have been great seeing the Pennsy around WWII. I imagine the press of business generated all kinds of equipment dislocations in that period. Of course, this followed the dislocation caused by electrification. Probably another good argument for systemwide standardization. Otherwise, moving steam power to some foreign division would have created chaos. All of this a reminder, of course, that the Pennsy did things in a BIG way. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:51:45 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Car X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5253207c60895ca0dac831f4b566aa1d Hi, > > I'm looking at a photo of some members of the Central Pa. Chap., NRHS, > standing in front of a PRR steel, cupola cabin car attached to a > Lycoming Valley Railroad diesel locomotive at LVRR's Newbury Yard near > Williamsport, PA. > > What cabin car is this and where is it stored? Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 113 West 17th Street, Leadville, CO 80461 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:14:24 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] PRR paint colors/schemes X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f57b9fde21c5bf264a3523e22e3768e8 A question or two from a novice modeller: 1) What were the PRR standard paint colors for the early to Mid 50's for different classes of painted structures? ie, stations, tools sheds, etc. I know about the PRRT&HS paint chip sets but I still need to know which parts of which buildings received which colors. In looking through asst'd books, I find few color pictures and few of buildings...a couple of towers that are ?buff with ?brown trim and red window sashes. 2) what do any of you suggest for reasonable matches for the standard PRR colors: ie, buff, lt gray, dark gray, etc. The only real structures I have seen are the old NYP&NRR stations and asst'd out buildings here on Delmarva which are yellow and maroon and gray. Thanks for the info, JimMcDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 18:51:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 601949f2e223c266f705c11008c717c5 Jerry, for us non Pa residents would you or someone post a diagram on the web site of this proposed trackage. I've been to Harrisburg a few time but I'm confused about the location. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Evil Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:12:01 PST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 86716cfa8f686aec01570f761b204502 Here's a diagram of the Harrisburg PA area. http://www.trainweb.com/eastpenn/images/hbgmap.gif ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:07:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners: X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f0cd1eafbd3eddef74310939a31117c4 In a message dated 99-11-14 19:18:14 EST, dennis@onerrave.com writes: << When they were first delivered, they came with the PRR keystone logos. I don't believe that they ever operated in revenue service on the Pennsy >> Among my most treasured photos are several that I took myself while the brand-new Metroliners, which were undergoing testing on the Reading's New York Branch, sat at Jenkintown. Beautiful keystone logo, but it had become a PC before they entered revenue service. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:07:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] tower at harrisburg X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 559d8d927a21d6d2ff98746c7232da48 In a message dated 99-11-15 12:31:41 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << That's CAPITOL tower. >> Was called "PH&P Junction" in Reading days. Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:07:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Harrisburg Tower X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: feb5e5f37e698dc2f5b0d7ddf39d7fc3 In a message dated 99-11-14 19:07:54 EST, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << where the Power Director (Load Dispatcher) is. (BTW, I've heard both terms for the latter position - can anyone clarify?) >> I think, but am not 100% sure, that the Power Director is the man who is in overall charge of that function. The Load Dispatcher is whoever happens to be on duty at the time. At times, the Power Director and Load Dispatcher could be the same person. Re the naming of towers: I would dearly love to see a list of every tower with the source of its name. I wonder if something like this could be hidden away in Lewistown? Rich Copeland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:21:33 -0500 From: "Mark Bej" Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill -Reply X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 210c14a4984b364f9baadd30bee1ffaf CENTGA@aol.com scribit: > Jerry, for us non Pa residents would you or someone post a diagram on > the web site of this proposed trackage. I've been to Harrisburg a few > time but I'm confused about the location. Todd Horton Todd et al., try this. Sorry for the extremely long URL, not my fault: http://www.mapquest.com/cgi-bin/ia_find?uid=uwmd06y8vb73u3mq%3Aanq07lg4t&mscsid=&link=ia-map-result&SNVData=njij9-g67%253bvdduvj%257c0u6%2Ccjtsc%2528z%2Cf7c3m%25280%2Cc2j%257c5u0zn9.3rs%253b_agf2a0.q8k8%2529c2j%257c5u0rn9.q8k8%2529cw8%257c.0yywq4%2Ci4o6%2540klqrkq%257cl%2524bcjs%257cdyx1%2529iw%253b2%253btb0fj%257cfiid%257c7xbfjw.q8k8dr-oxiw%253ba%253bB%257cWIK%253bW%2540BBD%253bwbwik5%257crxhqje.gm2nxp%2528%2512shxclm%2526%252bW%2513%2526%252b%2510F&mouse_mode=zoomin&map.x=363&map.y=358 If this does not work, start with http://www.mapquest.com and enter Lemoyne, PA and when you get the map, click on the first bar below the word "City" and you should get the right zoom setting. Also you may want to hit the "+" below "Map Size". Got it? Now for orientation. The Reading is the RR track closer to 581/83, nearly touching it at one point. The CV (PRR) is the track crossing the river across the tip of City Island. The reverse connection from RDG to CV is south of and parallel to 581, west of Creek Rd. This area is also the site of my proposed "forward connection" from RDG to CV. The location Jerry spoke of is just as the RDG is about to get to its bridge across the river, curving north and west, to join the NC. The NC is the track paralleling the river, the one farther from the river. The one closer to the river is the A&S, which did not connect with the CV in any way. Quick trivia question: from memory, who can specify which wye tracks existed at LEMO? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:26:55 -0500 From: "Mark Bej" Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill -Reply X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2834f3cbf8baaaca1d5e3ea5532cfce7 CENTGA@aol.com scribit: > Jerry, for us non Pa residents would you or someone post a diagram on > the web site of this proposed trackage. I've been to Harrisburg a few > time but I'm confused about the location. Todd Horton Another great site is Terraserver. Start here: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=13&T=10&X=85&Y=17&Z=243&W=2 And then zoom in: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=12&T=10&X=170&Y=34&Z=243&W=2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 20:39:19 -0500 From: "Mark Bej" Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill -Reply X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a756a6773b913582b2812ade731f96d0 Evil Mike scribit: > Here's a diagram of the Harrisburg PA area. > http://www.trainweb.com/eastpenn/images/hbgmap.gif A very good diagram. Couple quick comments: Amtrak territory extends up to CP-HARRIS, i.e, there should be a little red wye. STELL a tad more NW than indicated, and configuration of Shippensburg Sec. (ex PRR ex CVRR) is not quite correct. Otherwise, most excellent, dude! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 19:55:33 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8c9432a706b9021e9d0cc0231c2797b9 Bob and the list, I've occasionally used Kadee's 711 couplers, but recently I've tried to stick with the out of scale, but virtually indestructible regular Kadees. No, I haven't had a 711 fail on me in service. It's just that the Kadee 5s (or equivalent) are forgiving of imperfect mounting; the 711s need to be exactly right in height or else you'll have unwanted uncouplings. I should note that my trackwork, until recently, could be considered very much less than perfect. I, too, eagerly await the scale sized Accumates in a hopefully smaller box!!!! Doug Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/14/1999 2:17:01 PM Central Standard Time, > doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: > > << I filed the opening in the pilot until the coupler box would fit (it's > wide enough, but not deep enough). >> > > Perhaps the new proto coupler from Accumate will eliminate this need. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:09:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7b2f38c4093fcbd05677c8366b8408f3 Doug, Bob, You guys really like those plastic Intermountain, Accumate, Mchenry style plastic couplers? I once put a dozen or so (intermountain couplers) on my hopper cars and parked the train on a grade for a few days. One day I went to move the train and had nothing but uncoupling. What happened was the cars were bunched up while sitting on the grade the plastic springs had lost their tension and were useless from then on. Had to replace them all with the good old reliable Kadee's. I believe Mchenry now went to the metal springs did they not? Still, you can't beat a Kadee!.....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:36:13 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] Scale Size Accumates in HO X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c6e5eb51620a90e3c79668f2c6c16385 Hello list, Accurail has just updated their web site (I usually access it through the NMRA's Directory of Worldwide Rail Sites, www.ribbonrail.com, but I think Jerry has a link, as does Model Railroader's home page). They have a description of the new scale sized Accumates, but no photos as yet. They've described how they're going to make the new couplers compatible with existing automatics and how their new draft gear should be compatible with existing draft gear. Very interesting! Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:19:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR paint colors/schemes X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ccc068671be503cdae06b6a0c25f9f7f In a message dated 11/15/1999 4:24:35 PM Central Standard Time, jlmcdaniel@esva.net writes: << what do any of you suggest for reasonable matches for the standard PRR colors: ie, buff, lt gray, dark gray, etc. >> For buff and brown, I use PollyScale military colors. Use desert khaki, but I'll have to look up the number, since there were two of them and one is closer. I also used Nato brown for the brown trim, but in brighter light I think I can do better so am still searching. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:21:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2932aa534e21418388279d6656b2b997 In a message dated 11/15/1999 7:51:23 PM Central Standard Time, doug.kisala@mciworld.com writes: << I, too, eagerly await the scale sized Accumates in a hopefully smaller box!!!! >> I understand that is the plan. Bob Zoelelr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:27:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6f9ba44056bb647dd85a224a973590ea In a message dated 11/15/1999 8:14:17 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << You guys really like those plastic Intermountain, Accumate, Mchenry style plastic couplers? >> Actually, no. However, I am willing to give the Accumate a shot since I like smaller couplers, wheel flanges and treads. I bought a 25-pack of Intermountain's early offerings and 20 pair sit in my junk drawer because the shank fractured on a 1.5% grade on a 20-car train. I understand they have improved this, but I use Kadees for standard size couplers, a few McHenry's for special situations. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Metroliners: From: "Michael E. Allen" Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 01:22:32 EST X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c7d1aca275b99d214cbff52666e164d4 Yes. Since the Metroliner/Amfleet design could be considered to be the "next" type of PRR standard passenger car design. I managed to latch on to two sets and a couple spare shells along with several Bachman Amcoaches. One set is running as God intended as 2 married pairs. The power car and one of the dummies bracket a pair of amcoaches as a single trainset and the remaining pair of dummies are in a box. The spare shells were kitbashed into control cars ala Amtrak. One is part of a trainset powered by a Walthers E-60. A control car and some of the Amcoaches have stayed in the Bachman AMTK scheme while the E-60 is in tuscan with gold striping, its coaches, and the Metroliner cars are done in an Erzatz PRR scheme with a tuscan window panel and Keystones at each end. It may not be pure Pennsy but it was fun MEA ________________________________________________________ PRINCETON TERMINAL RAILWAY Telephone 609-683-0356 Management Services Telecopier 609-683-0192 Michael E. Allen meallen@juno.com W.R Allen Associates wrallenassoc@earthlink.net On Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:55:28 EST NDBPRR@aol.com writes: >Anybody beside me who has repainted these and operates them for the >PRR? >When first delivered they were in PRR paint and pictures are very hard >to >come by. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact >"listmaster@dsop.com". ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: [PRR] Accurail Autoracks Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 00:42:29 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7aea7c43daa79192d54648010ff71e48 This past weekend I purchased Accurail's PRR Bi-Level and Tri-Level autorack kits. I have a few observations to share and some questions to ask. The first area is reporting marks. Photos seen in my references indicate that the TRI-Level cars had KTTX or ETTX reporting marks. BI-Level cars had BTTX reporting marks. (The text in CG II says that BI-Levels were ETTX, but the photos on the same page don't support that statement, so the text must be a misprint.) However, Accurail's TRI-Levels have TTRX and their BI-Levels have TTBX. Are either of these correct? The build dates on the cars are 10-69, so that is obviously wrong for PRR. The Model Railroader review says that the model represents Paragon racks. CGII says that the PRR cars had racks from either of two builders, Paragon Bridge & Steel or Whitehead & Kales. So that's good news that the racks actually match the prototype. The flat car, on the other hand, does not match any I could find in the photos in my references. So this leads to two questions. First, what is the prototype for Accurail's flat, and did the PRR have any? Second, are there any other correct HO flats that could be kitbashed into a proper PRR car? Does anybody make KTTX, ETTX, or BTTX reporting marks? I searched Microscale's and Champ's pages to no avail. I suppose I could just use an alphabet set. References: Morning Sun's Color Guide, pgs 42,43 Morning Sun's Color Guide Vol. II, pgs 126,127 Pennsy Power III, p 414 Nov. '99 Model Railroader, Pgs 18-19 While the models seem to lack PRR accuracy, they are nicely done. There is a lot of detail and the lettering is sharp. Anyone else have any PRR autorack modeling tips? Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW:[PRR] Enola Yard Rumor Mill Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:40:12 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 76b01af49a86efb286eb991612de01d2 Mark asked. Each track of a line that is timetable east-west has a north rail and south rail, and other directions are given relative to timetable direction. Understand that. Now, if an E-W line crosses a N-S line, then one has (potentially) a NW wye, SE wye, NE wye, and SW wye. But what happens if the crossing tracks are both E-W or both N-S? ---------------------------------------- Usually engineering works are referred to in terms of geographic north-south-east-west, as plans typically include magnetic North arrows regardless of the railroads, sometimes chaotic, direction designations. The identification of where the connection between two railroads is made would be by geographic quadrant designation, i.e.., NW-NE-SE-SW. Many times engineering plans will also include the railroad's track direction designations and destinations drawn adjacent to the track to which it applies. If there is a potential for confusion, when discussing the project, one might also include a statement that the new connection would permit a straight away move from point A to point B. Those points typically being recognizable terminal locations. For example when the PC installed a connection between the East-West designated former PRR E&P Branch and the East-West designated former NYC Stoneboro Branch at Jamestown, so trains could make a straight away move from Wheatland,PA to Ashtabula,OH the connection was in the SW quadrant. There was already an extant connection in the NW quadrant to permit the movement of NYC trains from Stoneboro to Girard Jct. which was a ancient trackage rights agreement (ca. 1865) the Jamestown & Franklin Railroad had with the Erie & Pittsburgh Railroad. It was made before the J&F went to Ashtabula and permitted the coal and oil traffic from Stoneboro to get to Ashtabula (coal) and Cleveland (oil) via the E&P to Girard Jct and thence west on the LS&MS (J&F's parent) to Ashtabula and/or Cleveland. These two connections made for an interesting operation in later years. PC was hot to remove unnecessary trackage especially high maintenance items such as crossing diamonds, which is understandable. So in the late PC era when the west end of the E&P (Westford to Thornton Jct.) had been taken out of service and there was only one customer west of Jamestown they removed the diamond. The local freight, which usually had not more than one or two cars, had to make what I call a saw back move. Arriving from Wheatland going west on the E&P the local headed toward Ashtabula using the new connection, then backed down, east, toward Stoneboro on the Stoneboro branch, then continued west on the E&P using the old connection. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alan Buchan" Subject: FW: [PRR] PRR paint colors/schemes Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 07:47:31 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b902f36f8089e7de9867800da056dadf Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR paint colors/schemes From: Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:19:03 EST In a message dated 11/15/1999 4:24:35 PM Central Standard Time, jlmcdaniel@esva.net writes: << what do any of you suggest for reasonable matches for the standard PRR colors: ie, buff, lt gray, dark gray, etc. >> FWIW - I use Polyscale colors - "Aged Concrete" for siding, "Dirt" for trim and "Caboose Red" for just the window sash. The "Dirt" trim color is much lighter than the color chip but I believe it gives a nice faded look. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:08:44 -0700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0ef9fefc37d6ac1a13c5568985052ca7 Hello, I also have had bad experiences with most of the plastic Kadee knock-off, but the Accumates are done up differently, with a split shank ala the smaller Kadees. I haven't noticed that the much beefier internal springs tire out like the other couplers. Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, November 15, 1999 9:37 PM Subject: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic >In a message dated 11/15/1999 8:14:17 PM Central Standard Time, >mittner@webtv.net writes: > ><< You guys really like those plastic Intermountain, Accumate, Mchenry > style plastic couplers? >> > >Actually, no. However, I am willing to give the Accumate a shot since I like >smaller couplers, wheel flanges and treads. I bought a 25-pack of >Intermountain's early offerings and 20 pair sit in my junk drawer because the >shank fractured on a 1.5% grade on a 20-car train. I understand they have >improved this, but I use Kadees for standard size couplers, a few McHenry's >for special situations. > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: [PRR] Re-Post Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:50:29 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: d3de562be0f257ec78d62c87a1919d6c To the Group I researched this and posted it a while ago about the Potato Creek Railroad. I am not sure that it was ever posted for I never received back so I am reposting it after I read about the inquires lately. I am also requesting form the group, does any one have the phone number and address for Audio Visual Designs that make PRR Calendars. I heard that they are back in business and I would like to get a calendar from them this year. Also do they have a web page. Thanks Wayne On the Potato Creek Railroad, there is a logging company called the Goodyear Lumber Company. It was owned by Frank H. Goodyear supported by his brother Charles Waterhouse Goodyear. They began there operations with there fist limber mill on line between 1875 1877. This is only an educated guess by authorities of the area. This mill was in the town of Wrights PA. Located between Port Allegheny and Keating Summit. The Potato Creek Railroad ran from Keating Summit west to Keystone. It passed a famous mill in Norwich. The Goodyear's had a major mill operation here. In Norwich you can put a mill pond, band saw, a general store, small town with a boardwalk sidewalk, three bay enginehouse and major repair shop for cars and engines. The route of the railroad from Keating summit was: Keating Summit 0.0 Miles Liberty 3.0 Miles Sykes 6.7 Miles Big Hollow 10.7 Miles Norwich 13.7 Miles Keystone 12.2 Miles Betula 15.4 Miles The railroad not only did logging transportation it served as a passenger train combing freight and passengers. The Potato Creek railroad was incorporated on Jan 10, 1907. They owned side rod locos as well as shays and climax engines. Keystone had a chemical factory and Betula a stave well. The primary wood lumbered was hemlocks. I hope this gives you a start. Give a yell if you need something of more detail or have interests in other areas. You can also model interchanges at First Fork, Driftwood, Emporium, Wharton. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:29:46 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: [PRR] More Peoria branch X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6dafd92c1b85b6cd60fb694afe9035cb Jon Anderson & List: I had not intended to continue this thread on the Peoria branch, but... I was unable to leave it completely alone (probably because I am so fascinated by the line). In lieu of any evidence to the contrary (like first hand testimony of former PRR people), I have come to view the Peoria branch as a perennial loser. Jon, you were asking about traffic--perusal of the 1945 CT1000 produces only grain elevators and coal yards on line, plus a handful of warehouses, a brick yard and a small steel firm in Decatur. Since the PRR's ownership (through lease) ended at Farmdale, there were no industries listed for Peoria; and it is unlikely that there would have been much solicitation anyway given the close working relationship with the TP&W via Effner. In short, it was (and always had been) an agrarian line. Moreover, thanks to its light-duty road and inability to handle 100-ton cars, the branch would be at a distinct disadvantage even in the agricultural business as the 1960s wore on. As I mentioned in an earlier post, roadway was especially poor. Maximum grades on the whole branch were 1.46% eastward, and 1.70% westward--both probably credited to the line above Maroa. The line was cursed with numerous weak bridges. Coverdale & Colpitts' 1945 Construction history specifically listed 11 bridges, just the major ones, which added together totalled more than 4,890 feet. Probably well over 90% of this was wooden-pile trestle (341 spans), and almost all of the short bridges were trestlework. Track had been laid with 56-pound steel well into this century, and was only 85 pound section thereafter which, with the exception of a small amount of 100-pound rail, lasted to the very end. Studying old ETTs reveals the relative dearth of traffic west of Decatur. In 1930 there were only two sidings of more than 32-car capacity above Maroa (approx 74 cars each, at Waynesville and Mt. Joy, and most likely originally used for doubling the grades in between--for years Mt. Joy was the site of a coal dock for fueling locomotives). Most of the rest held 20 cars or less. By 1952 there were only six sidings left above Maroa, none over 25 cars long (Morton), and most for 15 or 16 cars. After the GM&O operated tower at Atlanta closed in August of 1964 (part of a CTC installation on the old Alton line), there were no open block stations above Maroa (itself a daytime IC trainorder office); and no block-limit stations in operation either. Seems bleak, yet at the same, it also sounds like a marvelous modeling opportunity. The Peoria branch was, in short, a quaintly backward line, operated with indifference by a company which had never wanted it in the first place. Had anyone else been willing to take it off their hands, the Pennsylvania would have been rid of it in a trice. And unless something else occurs to me between now and whenever I get to write the Keystone article that's been planned for months, that's about it. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Triumph Vol II From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 09:56:21 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 861bacc5d16877619384d4b171031c1a Did anyone read the ad in the latest issue of Trains Magazine. I found it quite humorous when I read `Satisfaction Guaranteed as always' I find it hard to lay down $68.00 for this book from a publisher who is very arrogant is his writings. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:03:07 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph Vol II X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f410537d5b3777c78eb3bc1f105e4457 On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com wrote: > Did anyone read the ad in the latest issue of Trains Magazine. I found it > quite humorous when I read `Satisfaction Guaranteed as always' I find it > hard to lay down $68.00 for this book from a publisher who is very arrogant > is his writings. I'd do it just for the pictures, but as yet I haven't found a copy anywhere I've been or looked. Attitude aside, the material in Triumph I made it worthwhile even if I consider it a "picture book" and ignore the other content! -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:24:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Triumph Vol II From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 42a3fb853fa9b7c6589cec8c1576e902 On 11/16/99 11:03 AM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >> Did anyone read the ad in the latest issue of Trains Magazine. I found it >> quite humorous when I read `Satisfaction Guaranteed as always' I find it >> hard to lay down $68.00 for this book from a publisher who is very arrogant >> is his writings. > > I'd do it just for the pictures, but as yet I haven't found a copy > anywhere I've been or looked. Attitude aside, the material in Triumph I > made it worthwhile even if I consider it a "picture book" and ignore the > other content! Bill Lewis, president of the Northern Central Chapter, gave the book a pretty good look. Anyone who knows Bill, knows he has a ton of PRR stuff and is himself a wealth of information. Bill read every photo caption and all the text. He found one partially mislabeled photo and one questionable. That's it! He was very impressed with the improvement since Harumph I. The mislabel concerns a photo of the eastbound classification yard at Enola. It is labeled westbound classification yard. (Off hand I forget what the questionable issue was.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 10:40:53 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 305d2ecd4afae8256154bd2db182b312 Doug said: >I wanted to add a front coupler to my recently purchased Mantua >Atlantic. Mine is the nominally collectible PRR Lindbergh Atlantic, >numbered for E6s 460, though it's really an E3sa/E7s as it comes from >the box. I like the term "nominally collectible"! On what do you base the E3sa/E7 designation? I ask as I would really prefer to have an E3sa as power for my wire train, and given that the Mantua locos are all can motor powered, it might make an excellent starting place for a kitbash/detail project... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:56:22 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8f8cae87276da218c66deaf8a81133a5 On 11/16/99 11:40 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> I wanted to add a front coupler to my recently purchased Mantua >> Atlantic. Mine is the nominally collectible PRR Lindbergh Atlantic, >> numbered for E6s 460, though it's really an E3sa/E7s as it comes from >> the box. > > I like the term "nominally collectible"! On what do you base the E3sa/E7 > designation? I ask as I would really prefer to have an E3sa as power for > my wire train, and given that the Mantua locos are all can motor powered, > it might make an excellent starting place for a kitbash/detail project... I, too, would like to know how the E3sa/E7s designation was arrived at. I'm not being critical, just ignorant! As recently mentioned on the "Merchandise Service" announcement list, Mantua has announced a new run of the Atlantic (and the American) in PRR livery...due in August 2000. (MS is taking reservations if you care to think that far ahead!) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:03:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] E3sa/E7s X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f7af3b1d05a8fb36003b001f69dafd85 Jerry, I am sure the answer you are lokking for is burried somewhere in the book Apex of the Atlantics. It has been quite awhile since I read that but that book covers the E class's pretty well....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 11:07:50 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal dredging? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7034ccfef67a12e28198e0a9b49596d6 I wrote: >>Fifty carloads of coal a day are (Note use of present tense!-BFS) >>delivered to >>Holtwood on a five-day week basis." Dennis replied: >That's a serious coal stream; they did this for *years*? Yes, and in fact for convenience, coal that was dredged from the Holtwood dam impoundment was transferred within the Holtwood complex by rail car as well! >There's a good overview of this site in Pennsy Electric >Years (Volkmer), bottom of page 48, which shows both bridges >(A&S, C&PD), plus the tracks on both sides of the Conestoga. >The track downstream from the Conestoga might have been >taken up when this shot was taken (1968), but where it used >to be is clearly visible. > >I've been arguing with myself ever since I got the book >whether there was a track or not on that side, but Fred's >message clinched it. In fact, when I was last there, several years ago now, I believe that I noticed tracks still on the "road bridge" over the Conestoga...I figured that this was the tail of the switchback into the dam, and never realized that it was also access to the coal loading yard! Time for some more rr archeololgy! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:33:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal dredging? From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4def46e8ec21fbabf7de33015f5a7dd7 I just want to pass on to all that I find this thread entirely fascinating! If someone wants to assemble a history on this, with us all searching for photos, it would make a wonderful addition to Keystone Crossings. Also, this presents a wonderful opportunity for modeling...even a bookshelf modeler could model the plants at Safe Harbor and Holtwood with complete operations. Wonderful! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:02:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Coal Dredging From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3685910099ff86888190375552046dba Okay, now you've got me searching the net for "coal dredging"... See http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/susq_trail_index.html This is a PP&L site. The maps shows the Susquehanna River. Click on the "Wetlands Nature Area". In the closeup map, click on "coal dredging ruins". Hey, a photo (anticlimatic) and very brief history. See http://www.ppl-inc.com/plants/holtwood.htm This is a photo of the Holtwood Dam. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 12:43:01 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Dredging X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: bb5773990da7fcc9e340951ae62e8dbd Jerry said: >Okay, now you've got me searching the net for "coal dredging"... hehehehehe! >See http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/susq_trail_index.html >This is a PP&L site. The maps shows the Susquehanna River. I think that this site is way upstream of Holtwood/Safe Harbor in Berwick PA >See http://www.ppl-inc.com/plants/holtwood.htm Also see: http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/attractions.html for the Holtwood/Lake Aldred PPL recreation areas...Note that the photos of the dam at http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/facerock.html and http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/dam.html are reversed! The dam is on the east shore, not the west! While http://www.ppl-inc.com/generation/holtwood.html shows the correct orientation, but a different view from the link Jerry found! As for Jerry's comment >>Also, this presents a wonderful opportunity for modeling...even a bookshelf >>modeler could model the plants at Safe Harbor and Holtwood with complete >>operations. Wonderful! I couldn't agree more! This is why this will be featured on my layout. Of course, the bookshelf/switching layout idea has tons of merit. The C&PD line is represented by staging at both ends, The A&S can be a dummy line up on the hillside, and an operator or two could work full time on getting carloads back and forth from Safe Harbor to Holtwood as well as around Holtwood. I'm trying to figure out how you could run Safe Harbor/Holtwood as a empties in - loads out operation... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com _ _ / \ / \ ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:52:49 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9777f3ffc306723894a9f8bf8d37252f Folks, I do this every few years. I have tons of HO stuff -- Bowser, Proto 2000, etc. -- but do not yet have a layout. I continue to plan, but constantly am frustrated by available space. Once again, I am considering the switch to N scale. Pinch me! I am a PRR modeler. I REALLY want to model the Harrisburg Passenger Station (10 tracks plus 3 freight tracks) and nearby Locomotive Shops (30 stall roundhouse, huge in/out yard, 8 stall diesel house). In HO scale, this would require about 50'. I was going to do it on two levels. The prototype features a pretty straight run through these two areas which adjoin each other. My available space is a room 24.5' long and 9.5' wide. There is an additional 8' by 8' room at one end, so it all forms an "L". In N scale, I could get the station and loco facilities in, on one level, along the 24.5' wall. It would also give me lots of room to meander back and forth along the main line. Timetable operations are of primary importance. Ranking extremely closely is accurate representation of trackwork (I have prototype valuation maps). The downsides I see of N: * I have big, clumsy fingers * I have enough trouble decaling HO scale * Though much improved, still not a great selection in N scale of RTR The upsides of N: * Though not 4:1, probably 3:1 increase in usable space * Ability to fit in what I'd like to model So, speak up! Share your thoughts! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kollar, Kris" Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal Dredging Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:12:02 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: aed6e588c1879eba1f94f4159ad68ee3 It was stated, " >See http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/susq_trail_index.html >This is a PP&L site. The maps shows the Susquehanna River. I think that this site is way upstream of Holtwood/Safe Harbor in Berwick PA." Bruce is correct this web site is from the power plant located in Berwick. The closest PRR line would be on the other side of the Susquehanna river where the line went through places like Wapwollopen and Mocanoqua. > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [SMTP:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 1:43 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Dredging > > Jerry said: > >Okay, now you've got me searching the net for "coal dredging"... > > hehehehehe! > > >See http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/susq_trail_index.html > >This is a PP&L site. The maps shows the Susquehanna River. > > I think that this site is way upstream of Holtwood/Safe Harbor in Berwick > PA > > >See http://www.ppl-inc.com/plants/holtwood.htm > > Also see: http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/attractions.html for the > Holtwood/Lake Aldred PPL recreation areas...Note that the photos of the > dam > at http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/facerock.html and > http://www.ppl-inc.com/landman/dam.html are reversed! The dam is on the > east shore, not the west! While > http://www.ppl-inc.com/generation/holtwood.html shows the correct > orientation, but a different view from the link Jerry found! > > As for Jerry's comment > >>Also, this presents a wonderful opportunity for modeling...even a > bookshelf > >>modeler could model the plants at Safe Harbor and Holtwood with complete > >>operations. Wonderful! > > I couldn't agree more! This is why this will be featured on my layout. > > Of course, the bookshelf/switching layout idea has tons of merit. The > C&PD > line is represented by staging at both ends, The A&S can be a dummy line > up > on the hillside, and an operator or two could work full time on getting > carloads back and forth from Safe Harbor to Holtwood as well as around > Holtwood. I'm trying to figure out how you could run Safe Harbor/Holtwood > as a empties in - loads out operation... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave > Barry > > PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:20:23 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 83d626d261490989b462714ddcd1617f Jerry: Another potential downside to converting to in N scale is the lack of suitable catenary. Maybe someone makes it in N scale but I do not know if it would be prototypical. Also, I don't think that there are alot of PRR brass electics in N scale. As far as HO scale is concerned, how about three levels? I think the MR had an article about a couple of years ago (written by John Armstrong?) regarding the "mushroom" type benchwork. I was multileveled benchwork that was staggered. Perhaps there is potential application in your case. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 1:53 PM To: LDSIG; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: Bruce Smith Subject: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale Folks, I do this every few years. I have tons of HO stuff -- Bowser, Proto 2000, etc. -- but do not yet have a layout. I continue to plan, but constantly am frustrated by available space. Once again, I am considering the switch to N scale. Pinch me! I am a PRR modeler. I REALLY want to model the Harrisburg Passenger Station (10 tracks plus 3 freight tracks) and nearby Locomotive Shops (30 stall roundhouse, huge in/out yard, 8 stall diesel house). In HO scale, this would require about 50'. I was going to do it on two levels. The prototype features a pretty straight run through these two areas which adjoin each other. My available space is a room 24.5' long and 9.5' wide. There is an additional 8' by 8' room at one end, so it all forms an "L". In N scale, I could get the station and loco facilities in, on one level, along the 24.5' wall. It would also give me lots of room to meander back and forth along the main line. Timetable operations are of primary importance. Ranking extremely closely is accurate representation of trackwork (I have prototype valuation maps). The downsides I see of N: * I have big, clumsy fingers * I have enough trouble decaling HO scale * Though much improved, still not a great selection in N scale of RTR The upsides of N: * Though not 4:1, probably 3:1 increase in usable space * Ability to fit in what I'd like to model So, speak up! Share your thoughts! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:33:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 3984b67ef003e1be2d90952fd69be3bf On 11/16/99 2:20 PM, Andrews, Ted (Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com) wrote: > Another potential downside to converting to in N scale is the lack of > suitable catenary. Maybe someone makes it in N scale but I do not know if it > would be prototypical. Also, I don't think that there are alot of PRR brass > electics in N scale. > > As far as HO scale is concerned, how about three levels? I think the MR had > an article about a couple of years ago (written by John Armstrong?) > regarding the "mushroom" type benchwork. I was multileveled benchwork that > was staggered. Perhaps there is potential application in your case. I have a design for three levels that is workable, I think. It uses the top level for staging. It's not a mushroom design, as the 9.5' width of the room is too narrow to allow the requisite aisles for that type of design. The problem is that the station area, in HO scale, requires 4' of depth. The loco facility, as it rounds the roundhouse, requires 5'. The operating possibilities are wonderful, but it does require access to the same "scene" from both sides. And placing both "scenes" on opposite walls of the same level would only leave a 6" aisle down the middle! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Sebring open house -- when? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:34:58 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 197f27030eea6ee27790cc61969c79a6 I'm losing it. Or have lost it. But could whoever posted info about the Sebring (Ohio) open house in the former PRR freight depot repost when this will occur? Last weekend and this weekend, as I recall, but which days specifically and what time? Thanks. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:29:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Terre Haute-Logansport Line From: EJ Caylor X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: aa4c32f39f72c38826c4344a0b16dd9c Spent a couple hours last Saturday trying to find what was left of the PRR Terre Haute - Logansport line (aka Crawfordsville Secondary). Didn't see a sight of it from Crawfordsville down until about a mile north of Waveland, when it suddenly pops up out of nowhere. I was amazed to find about 3 small trestles left from the line north of town. The first was a little worse for the wear, it's walkway along the west side of the trestle starting to fall. The second & third were pretty decent looking. I took some back roads to get a picture of one, & as I set up the shot, the farmer who owned the land told me I could go get a closer look. It only elevated the track about 6 feet above a drainage ditch, but it still looked in pretty good shape. I got a few shots of it, hope to get it up on my site whenever I get a chance away from school. Drove on to see if I could get somemore looks at the line, but as soon as I got south of Waveland, it disappeared again. Does anyone have any information on the last days of it's operation? How was it run in the late PRR/PC years? When was it abandoned? What industries were served? E.J. Caylor Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Denton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Accurail Autoracks Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:08:56 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7bcb351bf8e2ba578cb32191d208cb86 Andy The Microscale no. is 552. Champ also had a set, but I cannot remember their number... When Trailer Train first started their cars in late'59, they used RTTX for tri-level and BTTX for bi-level cars. If you are modeling the early '60s then the Microscale set will do fine. Larry -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy Cich Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 1:42 AM To: Prr-talk Subject: [PRR] Accurail Autoracks This past weekend I purchased Accurail's PRR Bi-Level and Tri-Level autorack kits. I have a few observations to share and some questions to ask. The first area is reporting marks. Photos seen in my references indicate that the TRI-Level cars had KTTX or ETTX reporting marks. BI-Level cars had BTTX reporting marks. (The text in CG II says that BI-Levels were ETTX, but the photos on the same page don't support that statement, so the text must be a misprint.) However, Accurail's TRI-Levels have TTRX and their BI-Levels have TTBX. Are either of these correct? The build dates on the cars are 10-69, so that is obviously wrong for PRR. The Model Railroader review says that the model represents Paragon racks. CGII says that the PRR cars had racks from either of two builders, Paragon Bridge & Steel or Whitehead & Kales. So that's good news that the racks actually match the prototype. The flat car, on the other hand, does not match any I could find in the photos in my references. So this leads to two questions. First, what is the prototype for Accurail's flat, and did the PRR have any? Second, are there any other correct HO flats that could be kitbashed into a proper PRR car? Does anybody make KTTX, ETTX, or BTTX reporting marks? I searched Microscale's and Champ's pages to no avail. I suppose I could just use an alphabet set. References: Morning Sun's Color Guide, pgs 42,43 Morning Sun's Color Guide Vol. II, pgs 126,127 Pennsy Power III, p 414 Nov. '99 Model Railroader, Pgs 18-19 While the models seem to lack PRR accuracy, they are nicely done. There is a lot of detail and the lettering is sharp. Anyone else have any PRR autorack modeling tips? Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:47:54 -0500 From: Steve Long Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Terre Haute-Logansport Line X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ee16bde475d17e8b3db4c2e096a8ee6a Hey! Who said you could walk on my railroad? I have track charts and know it like the back of my hand. I was there watching it since 1957 until it was removed during late 1979 to 1980. The best thing you can do is get older county maps or wait for me to scan some to you. I can do it by the county, and you will get a better feel for it or receive a track chart and still not know where you are at. In Crawfordsville , it's still there from just north of Ames to almost where the shale pit had a long spur away from the main. Steve Long EJ Caylor wrote: > Spent a couple hours last Saturday trying to find what was left of the > PRR Terre Haute - Logansport line (aka Crawfordsville Secondary). Didn't > see a sight of it from Crawfordsville down until about a mile north of > Waveland, when it suddenly pops up out of nowhere. I was amazed to find > about 3 small trestles left from the line north of town. The first was a > little worse for the wear, it's walkway along the west side of the > trestle starting to fall. The second & third were pretty decent looking. > I took some back roads to get a picture of one, & as I set up the shot, > the farmer who owned the land told me I could go get a closer look. It > only elevated the track about 6 feet above a drainage ditch, but it still > looked in pretty good shape. I got a few shots of it, hope to get it up > on my site whenever I get a chance away from school. Drove on to see if > I could get somemore looks at the line, but as soon as I got south of > Waveland, it disappeared again. > > Does anyone have any information on the last days of it's operation? How > was it run in the late PRR/PC years? When was it abandoned? What > industries were served? > > E.J. Caylor > Central Indiana Railroad Information Network > http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: [PRR] MP54 decals? Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:00:15 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 9652c9cfc16a14ae1d1db9ddcc24dba6 Can someone please inform me what would be the proper HO decals for "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letter board of an MP54? And for car numbers? Thanks in advance. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:18:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Terre Haute-Logansport Line From: EJ Caylor X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f99799fbfaf0cd133eb2963eac107b51 I'd love to take a look at those county maps & track charts. I probably won't be able to get back down there until after the new year. The next trip I'm taking is going to be some picture taking on the CSX St. Louis line. I've lived next to it all my life, so I guess I can consider it my line, hahaha. E.J. Caylor Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:49:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sebring open house -- when? X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 12924dc7f799fbf9923992a144bf530e Mark, The Sebring open house continues this coming Saturday and Sunday from 10 AM through 6 PM for the final weekend. Hope you can make it. Otherwise, email me for a separate showing. Thank you for your interest. Dennis Sautters ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:09:21 -0800 From: Frank Bagrash Subject: [PRR] LIRR decals X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8b7f6f133648bc9d28079b7f7f94e7b5 Hi, Does anybody know of a source for HO scale LIRR passenger car decals (and PRR passenger cars as well)? Thanks! Frank -- Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) P.O. Box 6846 California State University Fullerton, California 92834-6846 E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu Boogie gently, babies ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:36:57 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: b2c25592c20eb659d8d7a179e48dbebd Gary, What follows is my own automatic HO coupler pantheon; it represents only my opinion! I like the Kadees (metal or plastic shank) and Accumates best. The more recent McHenry KS series with a knuckle spring (I believe the EZ Mate Mark IIs are the same thing) are also quite good. I've had difficulty with the early McHenrys, Proto 2000 couplers, and Intermountain couplers because of the molded on spring. The molded on knuckle springs from these manufacturers seem to lose their centering action, especially if stored. Because steam locomotive pilots can be a pain to work on due to close quarters, if I can, I like to use a one piece coupler, like the EZ Mate Mark 2; fiddling with the 2 piece Accumates or Kadees can sometimes drive me to distraction. The biggest benefit of the Accumates is that they don't, in my experience, droop at all. Occasionally, Kadees seem to droop a bid, but I can use one of the offset shank couplers to compensate if need be. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Doug, Bob, > > You guys really like those plastic Intermountain, Accumate, Mchenry > style plastic couplers? I once put a dozen or so (intermountain > couplers) on my hopper cars and parked the train on a grade for a few > days. One day I went to move the train and had nothing but uncoupling. > What happened was the cars were bunched up while sitting on the grade > the plastic springs had lost their tension and were useless from then > on. Had to replace them all with the good old reliable Kadee's. I > believe Mchenry now went to the metal springs did they not? Still, you > can't beat a Kadee!.....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:51:37 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a49569403e8107baf5cff27687f66af1 Bruce and the list, I have the E3a plans (in OO scale, 1:96) from the March 1941 Model Railroader. While the Mantua Belpaire boiler is not exact in every dimension, it's close enough to suit me. The biggest discrepancy from the prototype is that the firebox extends to the rear of the cab; to my knowledge, PRR never had any deckless Atlantics. Mantua did this to accomodate their older MG 84 motor. As my engine sits, it has nominal 80" drivers (they actually scale out to about 77") and piston valves with outside steam pipes, and (implied) Stephenson valve gear. While my engine has Mantua's Delta trailer (to represent the 460's KW), Mantua's parts catalog has an inside bearing trailer truck. When I model the 8063 (I already have the boiler, but have yet to purchase a Bowser E6s chassis), I'll use a leftover MDC trailer truck and a Bowser 50" wheel; so far as I can tell, the Mantua inside bearing trailer is only compatible with the Mantua chassis. I've cut off the firebox sides on my boiler; I'm going to use parts from MDC's PRR Atlantic, and I cut back the firebox a bit so the engine won't be deckless any more. Unlike the prototype, we can compromise a skosh and use the existing Mantua cylinders or Bowser's E6s cylinders to represent the 22x26 cylinders of the E3sa or the 22.5x26 cylinders of the E7s engines. Bruce, one final though; the last E3sa engines were gone by the early 30s, and the E7s class by 1939 (excepting the 8063). I'm modelling the 8063 because she survived (albeit masquerading as the 7002). My next atlantic after the 8063 will be an E3sd; they're far more common, and they should be easy to do with the modified Mantua boiler and a Bowser chassis. You mentioned wire trains; according to Carleton's Pennsy Steam: A to T, E3sd 3153 survived in work train service as a wire train engine until 1949 (although she had footboard pilots, and not the classic slat pilot). Hope this helps! Doug "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > Doug said: > >I wanted to add a front coupler to my recently purchased Mantua > >Atlantic. Mine is the nominally collectible PRR Lindbergh Atlantic, > >numbered for E6s 460, though it's really an E3sa/E7s as it comes from > >the box. > > I like the term "nominally collectible"! On what do you base the E3sa/E7 > designation? I ask as I would really prefer to have an E3sa as power for > my wire train, and given that the Mantua locos are all can motor powered, > it might make an excellent starting place for a kitbash/detail project... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness." - Dave Barry > > PRRMO: The PRR Modular Modeling Society! http://prrmo.pennsyrr.com > _ _ > / \ / \ > ____\_/_____________\_/____ ____________________________________ > |- _______/ O \_______ -| |_ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ _| > | / PENNSYLVANIA \ | | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| | > |/_________________________\|_|_|________________________________|_| > | O--O \0 0 0/ O--O | |=| 0==0 0==0 |=| > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:52:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8c59977ae217616f620b577952bdff7a Jerry. With all the connections you say you have in the model business, the switch to "N" should not deter you at all. Someone is always coming out with something new and with your info. and the business' resources, you can produce what you think you need and that will benefit all of us N-Scalers. Decaling is not all that bad and large hands really don't get in the way. Try something small to see if you would be satisfied. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:01:49 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] E3sa/E7s X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 76fd59da2d6f3ec133fa90061da143e5 Gary and the list, I just reread Apex of the Atlantics; while it does mention the E7s class, the E3sa is a rare bird that I didn't even know existed until I got Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster. They were superheated E3a engines with piston valve cylinders and outside steam pipes, but they had 22x26 cylinders, vs the E7s class' 22.5x26 cylinders. The E3sa's starting tractive force stayed at 27409, while the E7s class with the slightly larger cylinders had 28670. The E3sa engines were either converted to E3sd engines or retired by the 1930s. The last E3sa was PRR 4096 (which began life as PRR 301, renumbered in 4/12). She was converted to E3sa in July 1919 and was finally retired in June 1934. She was less than a year short of 30, having been built in May, 1905. Doug Gary Mittner wrote: > Jerry, > > I am sure the answer you are lokking for is burried somewhere in > the book Apex of the Atlantics. It has been quite awhile since I read > that but that book covers the E class's pretty well....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:10:34 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c1bfb380cd778a2ae3c16d084be7dfba Jerry, This is just my biased opinion that follows. If you like steam power, it's much easier and less expensive to stay with HO. Good steam does exist in N, but good PRR steam in N means brass. Otherwise, if diesels and electrics are okay, by all means, go with N. The electrics may be a problem in either scale if you want something that's not a GG1; so far as I know, the P5, E44, etc have only been offered in brass. P70s are available from Model Power in N; I don't know about streamlined cars. Antenna sets for PRR diesels are available in N; there was a recent Model Railroader article about detailing a PRR E8/EP22 with an antenna set. I'm not yet 30, but I've had HO trains for a quarter century, and I'm used to them; my friend's N scale layout is nice and runs smoothly. I love to build kits, both of steam engines and of cars; I would rather have a smaller HO layout with simpler operations than give up my kits. My friend plops his engines on the track and has buckets of fun. Your calculus may be different.. Once again, just a series of rants (or my own thoughts, depending on perspective). Doug Jerry Britton wrote: > Folks, I do this every few years. I have tons of HO stuff -- Bowser, Proto > 2000, etc. -- but do not yet have a layout. I continue to plan, but > constantly am frustrated by available space. Once again, I am considering > the switch to N scale. Pinch me! > > I am a PRR modeler. I REALLY want to model the Harrisburg Passenger Station > (10 tracks plus 3 freight tracks) and nearby Locomotive Shops (30 stall > roundhouse, huge in/out yard, 8 stall diesel house). In HO scale, this would > require about 50'. I was going to do it on two levels. The prototype > features a pretty straight run through these two areas which adjoin each > other. > > My available space is a room 24.5' long and 9.5' wide. There is an > additional 8' by 8' room at one end, so it all forms an "L". > > In N scale, I could get the station and loco facilities in, on one level, > along the 24.5' wall. It would also give me lots of room to meander back and > forth along the main line. > > Timetable operations are of primary importance. Ranking extremely closely is > accurate representation of trackwork (I have prototype valuation maps). > > The downsides I see of N: > * I have big, clumsy fingers > * I have enough trouble decaling HO scale > * Though much improved, still not a great selection in N scale of RTR > > The upsides of N: > * Though not 4:1, probably 3:1 increase in usable space > * Ability to fit in what I'd like to model > > So, speak up! Share your thoughts! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:48:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Rutherford Yard X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 142c7be7fd42109ecfbe59fc7f1a00a7 Hi Folks, You may be aware that NS is rebuilding the Rutherford yard on the east side of Harrisburg. It is being reborn as an intermodal yard (expansion of the existing Triple Crown Services facility). Driving up and down that part of Derry Street you watch the construction to your heart's content. The bridge spanning the yard is the best vantage point (in the 7400? block of Derry). Best wishes, George Pandelios ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:53:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/16/99 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 839108d0807fa7c3d8d6522f38ec253e Jerry wrote: >Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale >From: "Jerry Britton" >Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:33:57 -0500 Jerry, I think you should repent now before it's too late and switch to O. ;^) George (currently wrestling with space issues himself) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 20:56:13 -0600 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 0b2dd17d3c0a7ac436b506fd90f0d1b4 Jerry, Just keep in mind that the poor eyesight and clumsy finger quotient increases with age. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: LDSIG ; PRR-Talk LIST Cc: Bruce Smith Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 1:02 PM Subject: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale >Folks, I do this every few years. I have tons of HO stuff -- Bowser, Proto >2000, etc. -- but do not yet have a layout. I continue to plan, but >constantly am frustrated by available space. Once again, I am considering >the switch to N scale. Pinch me! > >I am a PRR modeler. I REALLY want to model the Harrisburg Passenger Station >(10 tracks plus 3 freight tracks) and nearby Locomotive Shops (30 stall >roundhouse, huge in/out yard, 8 stall diesel house). In HO scale, this would >require about 50'. I was going to do it on two levels. The prototype >features a pretty straight run through these two areas which adjoin each >other. > >My available space is a room 24.5' long and 9.5' wide. There is an >additional 8' by 8' room at one end, so it all forms an "L". > >In N scale, I could get the station and loco facilities in, on one level, >along the 24.5' wall. It would also give me lots of room to meander back and >forth along the main line. > >Timetable operations are of primary importance. Ranking extremely closely is >accurate representation of trackwork (I have prototype valuation maps). > >The downsides I see of N: >* I have big, clumsy fingers >* I have enough trouble decaling HO scale >* Though much improved, still not a great selection in N scale of RTR > >The upsides of N: >* Though not 4:1, probably 3:1 increase in usable space >* Ability to fit in what I'd like to model > >So, speak up! Share your thoughts! >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 22:56:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Peoria Thread X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7522fc79c21799d84b6afbb4994f439f Ran across this the other night: "In granger country, other Geeps ply the Peoria Branch with western traffic that bypasses the congested Chicago and St. Louis terminal areas." From article in April 1964 Trains, p. 40, "All about America's largest locomotive fleet" by Bert Pennypacker. Any thoughts on that statement? --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:38:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c150af7dbf9f9a23431ce8b9b88e8513 In a message dated 11/16/99 10:03:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, blaird@wt.net writes: << Jerry, Just keep in mind that the poor eyesight and clumsy finger quotient increases with age. Jerry - you are approaching the point in life when you should be considering the switch to "O" Scale or "O" Guage (3 Rail) Check out the beautiful Mike's Train House SCALE E-6s and T-1 in the current catalog -The Centipedes in the last book - The Jordan Spreader the wedge plow and the N-8 Cabin with the "Little Guy" drinking coffee in the cupola. (All lighted, at under $50 each) The great MTH Rail King 100 ton OPERABLE Crane Car, not lighted, at under $50. Screw the scenery and the detail - and the frustration of trying to be a super accurate semi-professional model maker - set em up on the carpet and run 'em with your kids and have fun. This from a 55 year old 2 Rail "O" Scaler who's thinking of returning to my 3 rail "roots" If only one of the 3 Rail Manufacturers would make a decent H-21....... Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 01:26:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Life-Like Canada C-Liners X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 7d389f5eb5733afc374650b930630591 Mike and All, Here is how I remember the conversation and what I reported to Bob Hundman at Mainline Modeler and will be in the upcoming "Scuttlebutt." First of all the Fairbanks Morse CFA-16 (4 axle) locomotive will be released from Life Like of Canada and Life Like USA as a Proto 1000 Series locomotive. It will fall into this category because the kit will not have the normal upgrades you would expect to find on Proto 2000 locomotives, such as etched metal grill work, separate grabs, ect. Instead it will have no grabs at all, just dimples where the grabs go. The tooling was fantastic and up to par with everything released to date. They will release the Canadian versions starting with the Canadian Pacific Maroon and Gray in January of 2000, followed soon behind with the Canadian National Green and Gold. The Canadian versions of course have only three fans on the rear of the roof unlike the US made locomotives with four. The US versions will be released in around April. THERE WILL BE NO B UNITS PRODUCED! But this is what Life Like had said regarding the F-3 phase 2 also, so time will tell. We did see the frame and it was made very similar to what Athearn is using under the new Genesis F units. It is a potmetal casting with the frame sides extending up and the mechanism down inside. What we saw was very impressive and although I think that the market is small for a locomotive like this (I am in for 2 being a Pennsy fan) I think that it is up to us to support the product with sales before we go begging for the B units. It will retail for about $69.00 US Funds, and worth every penny! This is how I saw it. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 23:45:02 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] LIRR decals From: "Doug and Marianne" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 67dddf42d6fa9d6561e344a3f22a43f2 >Hi, > >Does anybody know of a source for HO scale LIRR passenger car decals >(and PRR passenger cars as well)? Thanks! > >Frank Within the past year, I purchased LIRR decals at Hobby Images in Hicksville, Long Island (ph. 516-822-8259). I purchased N scale, but the same are available in HO. The decals do not have any manufacturer or address. You can also try Willis Hobbies in Mineola, Long Island (ph. 516-746-3944) I used my decals to decorate N Scale FM C-Liners (two schemes) and passenger cars in the blue and gray Tichy scheme from the late 1950's. The C-Liners, observation car, and BM-60 were on display in the model room if you were in Altoona. Good Luck Doug N. Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GenJim833@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 04:11:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5bd44991650627a4406d51413395d654 I don't mean to get off the track here, but I am working on a book about the Pennsy and its latter day operations and would like to know where I can get the following information to put in a 50-100 page book: Sample freight schedules, photos of diesels with trains, maps, a condensed diesel roster that lists the PRR's diesel fleet by groups of units ra ther than individual units I have have seen on a well-knwn and excellent website. I would be willing to purchase any duplicate items at a reasonable cost, that includes employee timetables for the following early 1960s regions: Buckeye,Southwestern, Philly, New York, and Chesapeake as I am trying to cover the 9 region structure in effect during the early sixties as well as the three-region structure in the final years. My mailing address is: James Mancuso 56B South Main Street Perry, NY 14530 e-mail address: GenJim833@aol.com Any assistance will be most appreciated and I will give credit where credit is due. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cathatjim@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:36:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e477f05f91df8111019c823af0b481cd Jerry I have bad eyesight and large hand's and yet I'm still able to model in N scale. I'm in the process now of installing PRR antenna's to the appropriate engines. Key will release a T1(diesel has hyphen's steam doesn't correct?) in the next year. I went into N because of lack of space and the fact I didn't like the way HO looked. Reminded me too much of toys I had as a kid. N is not only do able, but the chance to run longer trains and more trains in less space make it worthwhile. My 2 cents worth Jim in New Orleans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Baldwin AS-16 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:32:19 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 6c17af6e54cc3dbce07a2b58d29f22e4 Hi List, I am looking for any information on the Baldwin Road Switcher AS-16 PRSL class BS-16. A general arrangement drawing would be great. I am especially interested in PRSL engine # 6009 as Baldwin changed designs frequently. I need underbody detail photos or drawings in the air and fuel tank area. I would be will to buy or trade for anything that you might have. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] PRR 244 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:25:16 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 272806da9a4278189d064f6b8d3c7d5b PRR Gize: I was watching Fox news (national cable channel) last night and they showed a video of a crash test that the FRA conducted at their test site in Pueblo, Colorado. It was car metroliner 244 running into a concrete wall at about 50 miles per hour. The test was for investigating the crashworthiness and survivability of commuter cars. The front end of the car including the vestible area was completely crushed. This car looked very familiar. Also, there were threads on this list abouth a couple of months ago regarding remaining PRR metroliners being sent west for destructive testing. Well, apparently (and sadly) it is happening. Have any of these cars in this class been set aside for preservation? Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:37:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4cf21f006c40b70830c40de97aafde9b Question concerning Middle Division trackage, circa 1954. It is my understanding that at VIEW interlocking (Duncannon, Pa.) the four mainline tracks -- with passenger trains on the center two tracks west of that point -- reduced to three through the interlocking, then four again east of the interlocking. However, I believe this is where passenger trains were switched onto the two south side tracks and the freights used the two tracks closest to the river. Proceeding east, the four line mains went through Cove, Perdix, and then met BANKS interlocking, where p-consists pretty much continued on their way, but freights were routed to either the Rockville Bridge or into Enola. ______________________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola ____\________/________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola _______\__/___________________________________?_________Rockville ____/ \________________________________?_________Rockville VIEW BANKS Is my assessment of the four tracks between VIEW and BANKS correct: freights on two tracks closest to the river and passengers on two tracks away from the river? Also, was BANKS tower itself located between the tracks and the river, or between the tracks and the mountain? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:39:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Pinch Me! From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 94372556e3f7fe110e879e84e2ba27be Thanks for all the feedback on switching from HO to N scale. I shall, once again, remain with HO. I received some excellent suggestions for space utilization which helped greatly! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:07:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: Pinch Me X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 2a8ea48b54464adab89c41c014e3b1ca  Jerry Wrote: Thanks for all the feedback on switching from HO to N scale. I shall, once again, remain with HO. I received some excellent suggestions for space utilization which helped greatly! (end) DANG!!! I was hoping for an HO liquidation sale! HeHeHe!.......Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:11:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Third Annual Modeling Needs Survey -- From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f5595cc295b03c9895a165f5932b50df Time for the 3rd Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! Please partipate by listing up to three PRR products that you would like to see produced in each of the categories listed. If you know the PRR class, please include it. Respond by replying to this message, but change the recipient to me at "jerry@pennsyrr.com" (not to the list) and send by Wednesday, November 24. When submitting, please APPEND the subject line with your scale. I will summarize over the Thanksgiving Holidays. The results will be posted to the list as well as circulated to several dozen model manufacturers. Thank you! YOUR SCALE: STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK / MOW ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: STRUCTURES DESIRED: OTHER DESIRED: --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:31:01 -0500 From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin AS-16 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: a0c8bd8a6700b6688b38b92fc63cc784 Bill Lane wrote: > Hi List, > > I am looking for any information on the Baldwin Road Switcher AS-16 PRSL > class BS-16. A general arrangement drawing would be great. I am especially > interested in PRSL engine # 6009 as Baldwin changed designs frequently. I > need underbody detail photos or drawings in the air and fuel tank area. I > would be will to buy or trade for anything that you might have. Any help > would be greatly appreciated. > > Thank You > Bill > Bill, Gladulich's book "By Rail To The Boardwalk" has a ton of AS-16 pictures. It might even have one of 6009. I also have some 8x10's at home that I will check. The "PRSL in color" (sic) is another source as are a couple of books put out by the West Jersey Chapter of the RRHS. Unfortunately, almost all of these photos do not show or do not clearly show the area you are interested in. Hope someone remembers an article or drawing that you could use. Let me know what turns up. I two Stewart models I want to work on. As I remember 6009 was the version with the flat class light on the front of the nose and a separate number board high on the hood. Later models had the box-like attachment for the class lights and number board. There was an article in either MR or RMC showing how to kitbash the AS 16 into a PRR 616 with flat class lights and number boards. Good luck. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:29:43 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria Thread X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e617f698513bff25600ffd592a72f748 FredAbend@aol.com wrote: > Ran across this the other night: > "In granger country, other Geeps ply the Peoria Branch with western traffic > that bypasses the congested Chicago and St. Louis terminal areas." From > article in April 1964 Trains, p. 40, "All about America's largest locomotive > fleet" by Bert Pennypacker. > Any thoughts on that statement? > --Fred Abendschein > Fred: Uh huh. I think Bert was guessing. The route to bypass congested Chicago & St. Louis terminals was via Logansport, Effner and the TP&W. Especially after the PRR bought half of the TP&W in 1960. Richard Wallis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:32:32 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e4cc62827b58455e0967ece803f373ff Jerry Britton scribit: > > Question concerning Middle Division trackage, circa 1954. > > It is my understanding that at VIEW interlocking (Duncannon, Pa.) the four > mainline tracks -- with passenger trains on the center two tracks west of > that point -- reduced to three through the interlocking, then four again > east of the interlocking. However, I believe this is where passenger trains > were switched onto the two south side tracks and the freights used the two > tracks closest to the river. Jerry, I don't have a middle division ETT immediately available, but that would answer your question. You could contact me at home late this eve. > Proceeding east, the four line mains went through Cove, Perdix, and then met > BANKS interlocking, where p-consists pretty much continued on their way, but > freights were routed to either the Rockville Bridge or into Enola. > > ______________________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola > ____\________/________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola > _______\__/___________________________________?_________Rockville > ____/ \________________________________?_________Rockville > VIEW BANKS > > Is my assessment of the four tracks between VIEW and BANKS correct: freights > on two tracks closest to the river and passengers on two tracks away from > the river? > Also, was BANKS tower itself located between the tracks and the river, or > between the tracks and the mountain? Shame on you! The map is available on line, and you didn't even check it! http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/banks.gif I can't slap your face across the 'Net, so please do so yourself. Then repeat: "Thank you, Sir, may I have another?" (apologies to the late Jim Belushi and the entire _Animal House_ gang) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AndersonCL@nswccd.navy.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR 244 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:34:36 -0500 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: da58a292471ea867c0ad2f731d6b8ac0 Ted - One minor... but, perhaps significant point, Car #244 was not a from Metroliner! This car is one of four remaining Budd "Pioneer" EMU's that were produced for the Pennsy back in the late 1950's. Six were manufactured, 3 cars in each group with varying component configurations such as clasp or disc brakes. The idea was to evaluate the performance of each groups for incorporation into a fleet which was to replace the aging MP-54's. They ran, almost exclusively in Philadelphia commuter operations. The surviors were last last operated by SEPTA into the mid 1990's when there standard couplers, hard to get components, which prevented integration with the balance of SEPTA's EMU's caused them to be "set asside". These cars were sent west to Pueblo last year. A Metro car is preserved at Strasburg... Of course many remaining examples have been modified by Amtrak for use as control cars. The balance of the remaining, fleet in either original or modified configurations, reposes at Amtrak's Wilmington Shops. Chas -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted [mailto:Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 9:25 AM To: 'PRR-Talk' Subject: [PRR] PRR 244 PRR Gize: I was watching Fox news (national cable channel) last night and they showed a video of a crash test that the FRA conducted at their test site in Pueblo, Colorado. It was car metroliner 244 running into a concrete wall at about 50 miles per hour. The test was for investigating the crashworthiness and survivability of commuter cars. The front end of the car including the vestible area was completely crushed. This car looked very familiar. Also, there were threads on this list abouth a couple of months ago regarding remaining PRR metroliners being sent west for destructive testing. Well, apparently (and sadly) it is happening. Have any of these cars in this class been set aside for preservation? Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cathatjim@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:41:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Third Annual Modeling Needs Survey -- X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5e31839876d33294dd64287e9a1c677c YOUR SCALE: N-scale STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: M1 or J1 ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: FM Trainmaster, C-liner, New better detailed Eire-built's, Baldwin BP20, Alco Century series, and Kato rerelease of PRR F-7's. DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: E-44, New Haven EP-3 and EP-5, new metroliiner release FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK / MOW ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: Pennsy Cabin Cars, any of the N5 or N8 series PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: Observation cars, such as Tower View, Mountain View, Samuel Rea. STRUCTURES DESIRED: More prototypically correct U.S. passenger stations. PRR Signal towers and PRR catenary OTHER DESIRED: Thank you Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:06:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Third Annual Modeling Needs Survey -- X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 35c0d3636795f08557554ffc769e6fae In a message dated 11/17/1999 10:18:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > YOUR SCALE: HO > > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > Plastic I-1 Plastic G-5 Plastic H-9 > > > ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > None > > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: LS25 BS24 BF15 a and b units > > > > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK / MOW ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > GLCA plastic Fm K7/K7a in plastic > > > PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > R60 in plastic Correct pullman configurations in plastic > > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:34:57 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 65f59b7b649a7936a32c843437960d33 In all the modelling mags there are always ads for n-cat or some such thing which appear to make catenary for nscale...I dont have a magazine handy here...but they are always in RMC and others.... On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 PKMac1@aol.com wrote: >Jerry. With all the connections you say you have in the model business, the >switch to "N" should not deter you at all. Someone is always coming out with >something new and with your info. and the business' resources, you can >produce what you think you need and that will benefit all of us N-Scalers. >Decaling is not all that bad and large hands really don't get in the way. Try >something small to see if you would be satisfied. > >Pat McKinney > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > Will Semanchuk-Enser Technical Support & Co-Network Administrator alcoman@bluemoon.net net.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Online System V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network http://www.bluemoon.net mud.bluemoon.net 4000 - MoonMud bbs.bluemoon.net irc.bluemoon.net-ZUHnet Buffalo, NY IRC Server Home Page:http://alcoman.railfan.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:13:41 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f54148cc75123888e4ade4197615e01f View from 1950 track chart. Banks from 1963 interlocking diagram. Banks *** /-------< /----/-/--------< <-----\-----/------------------------<------------------------/ /-/-----------> <------\ /------------------------->------------------------/-/--------------> >-----/-\-/-\------------------------<---------------------/-/-------------- ---< >----/-------\----------------------->--------------------/----------------- ---> *** View > ---------- > From: Mark Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:32 AM > To: jerry@pennsyrr.com > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage > > Jerry Britton scribit: > > > > Question concerning Middle Division trackage, circa 1954. > > > > It is my understanding that at VIEW interlocking (Duncannon, Pa.) the > four > > mainline tracks -- with passenger trains on the center two tracks west > of > > that point -- reduced to three through the interlocking, then four again > > east of the interlocking. However, I believe this is where passenger > trains > > were switched onto the two south side tracks and the freights used the > two > > tracks closest to the river. > > Jerry, > I don't have a middle division ETT immediately available, but that would > answer your question. You could contact me at home late this eve. > > > Proceeding east, the four line mains went through Cove, Perdix, and then > met > > BANKS interlocking, where p-consists pretty much continued on their way, > but > > freights were routed to either the Rockville Bridge or into Enola. > > > > ______________________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola > > ____\________/________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola > > _______\__/___________________________________?_________Rockville > > ____/ \________________________________?_________Rockville > > VIEW BANKS > > > > Is my assessment of the four tracks between VIEW and BANKS correct: > freights > > on two tracks closest to the river and passengers on two tracks away > from > > the river? > > Also, was BANKS tower itself located between the tracks and the river, > or > > between the tracks and the mountain? > > Shame on you! > The map is available on line, and you didn't even check it! > > http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/banks.gif > > I can't slap your face across the 'Net, so please do so yourself. Then > repeat: "Thank you, Sir, may I have another?" > > (apologies to the late Jim Belushi and the entire _Animal House_ gang) > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Athearn 2-8-2 Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 22:40:17 -0000 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e791dc413c6f14ff03e05be49034acb7 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF2FBA.640A91A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have just got my Athearn L2s and found that they had fitted a strange = front coupler mount. It looks like a NEM coupler box but isn't.. A KD No 19 with a couple of shims to jam in the NEM tails fitted does = fit and comes out the right height. I picked it up at the Tollworth Model Railway Exibition and it was duly = admired by various people on my Swedish Layout. ( I do have a Pennsy layout but the Swedish is odd...). Patrick Grace=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF2FBA.640A91A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have just got my Athearn L2s and found that they = had fitted=20 a strange front coupler mount.
It looks like a NEM coupler box but = isn't..
A KD No 19 with a couple of shims to jam in the NEM = tails=20 fitted does fit and comes out the right height.
I picked it up at the Tollworth = Model Railway=20 Exibition and it was duly admired by various people on my Swedish=20 Layout.
( I do have a Pennsy layout but the = Swedish is=20 odd...).
 
Patrick Grace
 
------=_NextPart_000_0044_01BF2FBA.640A91A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:07:02 -0800 From: Chuck Friedlein Subject: Re: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 65acd94f8718f627bc3ddea6d183b3d6 Greetings, Forgive me for chiming in on this conversation, but if you stay in HO scale, I make PRR suburban catenary poles you can use for live pick-up. Contact me off line at if you'd like some information. Chuck Friedlein Friedlein's Rail Replicas "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > Jerry: > > Another potential downside to converting to in N scale is the lack of > suitable catenary. Maybe someone makes it in N scale but I do not know if it > would be prototypical. Also, I don't think that there are alot of PRR brass > electics in N scale. > > As far as HO scale is concerned, how about three levels? I think the MR had > an article about a couple of years ago (written by John Armstrong?) > regarding the "mushroom" type benchwork. I was multileveled benchwork that > was staggered. Perhaps there is potential application in your case. > > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 1:53 PM > To: LDSIG; PRR-Talk LIST > Cc: Bruce Smith > Subject: [PRR] Pinch Me -- Considering Switch to N Scale > > Folks, I do this every few years. I have tons of HO stuff -- Bowser, Proto > 2000, etc. -- but do not yet have a layout. I continue to plan, but > constantly am frustrated by available space. Once again, I am considering > the switch to N scale. Pinch me! > > I am a PRR modeler. I REALLY want to model the Harrisburg Passenger Station > (10 tracks plus 3 freight tracks) and nearby Locomotive Shops (30 stall > roundhouse, huge in/out yard, 8 stall diesel house). In HO scale, this would > require about 50'. I was going to do it on two levels. The prototype > features a pretty straight run through these two areas which adjoin each > other. > > My available space is a room 24.5' long and 9.5' wide. There is an > additional 8' by 8' room at one end, so it all forms an "L". > > In N scale, I could get the station and loco facilities in, on one level, > along the 24.5' wall. It would also give me lots of room to meander back and > forth along the main line. > > Timetable operations are of primary importance. Ranking extremely closely is > accurate representation of trackwork (I have prototype valuation maps). > > The downsides I see of N: > * I have big, clumsy fingers > * I have enough trouble decaling HO scale > * Though much improved, still not a great selection in N scale of RTR > > The upsides of N: > * Though not 4:1, probably 3:1 increase in usable space > * Ability to fit in what I'd like to model > > So, speak up! Share your thoughts! > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:27:18 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e0a3a5c30a32f27e33725777cb099e3f The below diagram wasn't helpful you say? Here's another try. Just in case it doesn't work again, it's 4 lines with 15 characters each. View tower is across tracks from river. <---\-----/---< <----\ /----> >---/-\-/-\---< >--/-------\--> *** View > ---------- > From: John Cooper[SMTP:johncoop@microsoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:13 AM > To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; 'Mark Bej' > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage > > View from 1950 track chart. Banks from 1963 interlocking diagram. > Banks > *** > /-------< > > /----/-/--------< > <-----\-----/------------------------<------------------------/ > /-/-----------> > <------\ > /------------------------->------------------------/-/--------------> > >-----/-\-/-\------------------------<---------------------/-/------------ > -- > ---< > >----/-------\----------------------->--------------------/--------------- > -- > ---> > > *** > View > > > ---------- > > From: Mark Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:32 AM > > To: jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage > > > > Jerry Britton scribit: > > > > > > Question concerning Middle Division trackage, circa 1954. > > > > > > It is my understanding that at VIEW interlocking (Duncannon, Pa.) the > > four > > > mainline tracks -- with passenger trains on the center two tracks west > > of > > > that point -- reduced to three through the interlocking, then four > again > > > east of the interlocking. However, I believe this is where passenger > > trains > > > were switched onto the two south side tracks and the freights used the > > two > > > tracks closest to the river. > > > > Jerry, > > I don't have a middle division ETT immediately available, but that would > > answer your question. You could contact me at home late this eve. > > > > > Proceeding east, the four line mains went through Cove, Perdix, and > then > > met > > > BANKS interlocking, where p-consists pretty much continued on their > way, > > but > > > freights were routed to either the Rockville Bridge or into Enola. > > > > > > > ______________________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola > > > > ____\________/________________________________?_________Rockville/Enola > > > _______\__/___________________________________?_________Rockville > > > ____/ \________________________________?_________Rockville > > > VIEW BANKS > > > > > > Is my assessment of the four tracks between VIEW and BANKS correct: > > freights > > > on two tracks closest to the river and passengers on two tracks away > > from > > > the river? > > > Also, was BANKS tower itself located between the tracks and the river, > > or > > > between the tracks and the mountain? > > > > Shame on you! > > The map is available on line, and you didn't even check it! > > > > http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/banks.gif > > > > I can't slap your face across the 'Net, so please do so yourself. Then > > repeat: "Thank you, Sir, may I have another?" > > > > (apologies to the late Jim Belushi and the entire _Animal House_ gang) > > > > -- > > Mark > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Trackage Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:50:16 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 32a39ba83870899a444bd6b4adaf26b5 John Cooper scribit: > > View from 1950 track chart. Banks from 1963 interlocking diagram. > Banks > *** > /-------< > > /----/-/--------< > <-----\-----/------------------------<------------------------/ > /-/-----------> > <------\ > /------------------------->------------------------/-/--------------> > >-----/-\-/-\------------------------<---------------------/-/-------------- > ---< > >----/-------\----------------------->--------------------/----------------- > ---> John, looks like the line-wrap monster bit you. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:09:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Looking for an Interlocking From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 60d1a1b1717bb37931f27c50cf14c777 The current layout draft I am working on calls for a "classic" PRR interlocking plant between my hidden staging and the east end of Harrisburg. The mains will be four tracks, straight through. I'm not yet sure if it will be visible or not. I am trying to identify a similar prototype interlocking between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. PARKesburg fits the bill functionally, but the diagram on Mark Bej's site indicates a spreading of the tracks on the western half of the plant. I can't afford the space to do this. Is this the case? Looks like the only other one that fits the bill might be OVERBROOK. Has correct number of tracks. Any other candidates? I will need a similar interlocking west of Harrisburg. Even though the trackage isn't quite right, I think I'm going to take some liberty with BANKS and make it a 4-in/4-out traditional interlocking. It will be visible on an upper level shelf. The shelf will have enough depth to include the tower and the river bank. I will then create a custom backdrop of the river and the other side. (Gee, I guess I "could" put an N scale train on the far side of the river for the line to Sunbury, huh -- and I just thought of that as I was typing this!) VIEW (Duncannon) also has an awesome view, not to mention the bridge, but it closes to three tracks and I need to maintain four through. Although I could take a liberty there... Anyone know of a published photo of VIEW tower? I've never seen it. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:17:50 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 244 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: f0465c1223e3428e28c0cd094c65931e Ted the 244 was one of three that Septa sold to the test facility. They will all be used in crash testing. There were six cars total built by Budd in the late fifties. One was lost due to a fire and the remaining 5 lasted in service until the early nineties. Septa stripped the electrical gear and pantographs off all five with the idea to turn them into a push-pull set to be used with Septa's ALP-44's. It was determined to be too expensive and the project was scrapped. The cars sat at the Frazer facility until recently. Two have been saved and they are at Strasburg. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BillJewett@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:04:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail Autoracks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: c901d39103d7facbb604a43fd0708050 In a message dated 11/16/99, ajc5150@net66.com writes: << Anyone else have any PRR autorack modeling tips? >> Modeling the rack cars has been covered, but are there any affordable autos to load 'em with? Best I have seen are Countryside Models, "50's style pickup trucks, 8 for $19.95 + $4 shipping." Still a pricy load even on a bilevel. Bill Operations SIG ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 15:31:35 -0600 From: John Sheets Subject: [PRR] First ex-PRR MU destroyed at Pueblo X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 75c113a149df907a8859d89c29bc420f As part of the testing to develop more crash resistant car designs, the first of several SEPTA (nee-PRR) electric MU's was crashed at the DOT Pueblo facility yesterday, as reported on NPR this morning. The crash resulted in the first 6 feet of the MU collapsing with "severe injuries" to several crash dummies riding in the car. One was hurled thru a broken window and ejected from the car. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] Looking for an Interlocking Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:57:14 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 89ee43890bf809996aae581c681368a4 Bryn Mawr also fits your requirements. I would say that Bryn Mawr is more "classic" being on tangent track and having standard 4 track mains on either side. Overbrook, however, might fit better logically because it controlled the western end of 52nd st yard and the "classic" 4 track mainline really started west of Overbrook. Maybe your staging yard should be modelled after 52nd st? Here's overbrook. City line ave strattles the interlocking and the signal bridges can be clearly seen. Station is just east of City Line Ave on south side of tracks. Tower is the next building just east of the station. http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2393&Y=22133&Z=18&W=2 Here's Bryn Mawr. Tower is at the west end of the westbound station platform. Freight station can be seen just east of the underpass. The station is just west of the underpass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2365&Y=22151&Z=18&W=2 John > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 12:09 PM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Looking for an Interlocking > > The current layout draft I am working on calls for a "classic" PRR > interlocking plant between my hidden staging and the east end of > Harrisburg. > > The mains will be four tracks, straight through. I'm not yet sure if it > will > be visible or not. I am trying to identify a similar prototype > interlocking > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. > > PARKesburg fits the bill functionally, but the diagram on Mark Bej's site > indicates a spreading of the tracks on the western half of the plant. I > can't afford the space to do this. Is this the case? > > Looks like the only other one that fits the bill might be OVERBROOK. Has > correct number of tracks. > > Any other candidates? > > I will need a similar interlocking west of Harrisburg. Even though the > trackage isn't quite right, I think I'm going to take some liberty with > BANKS and make it a 4-in/4-out traditional interlocking. It will be > visible > on an upper level shelf. The shelf will have enough depth to include the > tower and the river bank. I will then create a custom backdrop of the > river > and the other side. (Gee, I guess I "could" put an N scale train on the > far > side of the river for the line to Sunbury, huh -- and I just thought of > that > as I was typing this!) > > VIEW (Duncannon) also has an awesome view, not to mention the bridge, but > it > closes to three tracks and I need to maintain four through. Although I > could > take a liberty there... Anyone know of a published photo of VIEW tower? > I've never seen it. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for an Interlocking Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:01:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 35661f9346a431057f48157defe8251f Jerry Britton scribit: > The current layout draft I am working on calls for a "classic" PRR > interlocking plant between my hidden staging and the east end of Harrisburg. > The mains will be four tracks, straight through. I'm not yet sure if it will > be visible or not. I am trying to identify a similar prototype interlocking > between Harrisburg and Philadelphia. Good luck. The trackage is so screwy because of all the bypasses ... Best examples of a somewhat standard interlocking would be PAOLI, BRYN MAWR, and OVERBROOK, or specifically, portions thereof. > PARKesburg fits the bill functionally, but the diagram on Mark Bej's site > indicates a spreading of the tracks on the western half of the plant. I > can't afford the space to do this. Is this the case? Remember the interlocking diagrams are not to scale! They are not n:1 blueprints. But the tracks _do_ spread some, they have to, to accommodate the flyover of the main line #1 track over the A&S. > Looks like the only other one that fits the bill might be OVERBROOK. Has > correct number of tracks. > VIEW (Duncannon) also has an awesome view, not to mention the bridge, but it > closes to three tracks and I need to maintain four through. Although I could > take a liberty there... Anyone know of a published photo of VIEW tower? Take the liberty. Much better scenery than PORT, MIFFLIN, LEWIS, JACKS, you name it. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: NDBPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 17:56:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Square end obs X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8cb374b55c44ded45a0c9583094a6d3a Everybody knows Mountain View and Tower View but does anybody know the names of the other square ended observayion cars? I know one was Alexander Cassat and the others are supposed to be named for former presidents of the PRR but what were their names and assignments? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Baldwin AS 616 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:06:18 -0800 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 4d69f166b64c6a571805830491b0be90 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF3126.72913360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tom, I had the idea a few months back of converting an AS-16 to an AS-616. If = you are modeling an earlier version with commonwealth 3-axel trucks, = wait for Stewart to reintroduce this model (in conversation with them, I = was informed an improved version is due out after the new year). My = research indicated some dissatisfaction with the original truck. If you = are looking for a later model, featuring outside equalizied trucks (see = Pennsy Power II, page 218 fig 1 and 2 for comparison). Note the = increased height on the long hood. On the later model it appears to be = even with the cab. This I believe this was the subject of the article = Tom Mahon referenced. To varify this means going thru MR issues back = about 1 1/2 years. Rather not do that. Pretty sure this was the case though. Hope this = helps Walt Prusick ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF3126.72913360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tom,
 
I had the idea a few months back of = converting an=20 AS-16 to an AS-616. If you are modeling an earlier version with = commonwealth=20 3-axel trucks, wait for Stewart to reintroduce this model (in = conversation with=20 them, I was informed an improved version is due out after the new year). = My=20 research indicated some dissatisfaction with the original truck. If you = are=20 looking for a later model, featuring outside equalizied trucks (see = Pennsy Power=20 II, page 218 fig 1 and 2 for comparison). Note the increased height on = the long=20 hood. On the later model it appears to be even with the cab. This I = believe this=20 was the subject of the article Tom Mahon referenced. To varify this = means going=20 thru MR issues back about 1 1/2 years.
Rather not do that. Pretty sure this = was the case=20 though. Hope this helps
 
Walt Prusick
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF3126.72913360-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:24:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Square end obs X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: da9ab02e278f782942eaf7de1106e414 Another in the same class as the Mountain and Tower Views was the Metropolitan View....Gary http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac1@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:50:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Square end obs X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5b15f61734afddef9f4b368ea38ef711 PRR 8421 Thomas Alexander Scott PRR 8422 George Brooke Roberts PRR 8423 Frank Thomson PRR 8424 Alexander Johnston Cassatt PRR 8425 James McCrea PRR 8426 Samuel Rea PRR 8427 William Wallace Atterbury Class POS 211, Pullman 1949 Hope this helps. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:14:44 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Square end obs X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 44ae5ff012cb121240c59f0004f17d16 Gary: Are you sure about that? I believe Metropolitan View was a round end car originally in FOM paint. As far as the other square ends go, another was the Samuel Rae. I'm out of town right now, so I can't get to my info and can't recall the rest of the names. These "other cars" were assigned to The Spirit of St. Louis, The Cincinnati Limited and The Liberty Limited. I also believe on was held in reserve or as an alternate. Gary Mittner wrote: > Another in the same class as the Mountain and Tower Views was the > Metropolitan View....Gary > > http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:55:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Mikes Train House PRR N8 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: e47a83b24256f0e826016b3a82f36181 List, I was able to find the new MTH PRR N8 today. The last one on the shelf. MTH is completely sold out of this one and it is only 3 weeks old! At least that is what I am hearing. It is one of those "got to have" models. Even though I did not need it, I already have a Max Gray Brass Import, the $39.00 price tag was hard to pass up. When I brought it home to compare with the Max Gray N8 and Photos it appears to be a pretty good model. Scales out in length to the Brass model perfectly. Sets a little higher but that is probably due to the tin plate trucks. I will probably switch to scale wheelsets and couplers in the future. The details are nicely done throughout. Although not as fine as the Brass N8 it is certainly well worth the price tag. There is one detail that has been "goofed" on. Whether it is a mistake on this particular one or the way they were all made I do not know. Comparing it to photos and the Max Gray model, it differs in the location of the smoke stack and transmitter coils. MTH mistakenly placed them on the opposite roof end. They should actually be placed on the other end of the roof, (same side as the tool box on the underside). I will have to see if they are able to be removed and relocated. Stay tuned! This N8 is part of MTH Premier Line which means it is scaled for O scale. MTH is also releasing the N5C in the Rail King Line. Although not O Scale dimensions it doesn't look very far off. May have to pick one of them up too. If your not in O scale, this is still worth taking a look at. Makes a nice display piece anyway....Gary PS: Dick, that guy in the cupola is still drinking java!!! http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:35:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Square end obs From: Jerry Britton X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: cf03f992e44111c1e863a0e5d7132d21 On 11/17/99 5:56 PM, NDBPRR@aol.com at (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote: > Everybody knows Mountain View and Tower View but does anybody know the names > of the other square ended observayion cars? I know one was Alexander Cassat > and the others are supposed to be named for former presidents of the PRR but > what were their names and assignments? Thanks You will find very diffinitive information on Keystone Crossings, in the Passenger Operations section. http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ See the class rosters at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/POS211.html http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/POS21.html These pages indicate build dates, intended names, actual names, renames, last known status, train assignments, etc. Enjoy! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:59:02 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] LIRR decals X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 5415fa80780c8bd1a31df9de0024e29a Frank and the list, I've got Champ's catalog in front of me. For the LIRR, they list PH48, bronze gold LIRR for heavyweight equipment and PH95, white lettering for streamlined cars. They have many PRR sets; the one I usually work with (because I prefer the dulux gold lettering) is PH156. For a heavyweight car, you'll also need stripes; Use set S87 for bronze gold and S88 for dulux gold. Doug Frank Bagrash wrote: > Hi, > > Does anybody know of a source for HO scale LIRR passenger car decals > (and PRR passenger cars as well)? Thanks! > > Frank > > -- > Frank M. Bagrash, Ph.D. 714-278-2669 > Department of Psychology 714-278-7134 (Fax) > P.O. Box 6846 > California State University > Fullerton, California 92834-6846 > E-mail: fbagrash@fullerton.edu > Boogie gently, babies > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:00:33 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 8e62b7ed4d516246f41537da4a629a08 Fred, Good point! Doug Fred G Rea wrote: > Minor nit pick. Isn't OO scale 1' = 4 mm making its ratio smaller than > HO's 1:87, not larger (i.e. !:96)? > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:37:40 -0600 From: "doug.kisala" Subject: [PRR] PRR E3sa engines, revised and expanded (plus the E2sa class) X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: ef00aafce56b4bf8693a8df5a68b87c8 Hello list, The information that follows is from Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster. Since so many of you expressed surprise (justifiably so) that the E3sa class existed, I went through the roster to find all of the E3sa engines, including those that later became E3sd engines. I also included a pair of E2sa engines I found. The following E2sa engines were converted from E2a engines 5254 (4/17 5754, 9/19 5227) J 3/04, E2sa 9/19, E3sd 4/23, sc 4/40 5256 (9/17 5756, 8/19 5231) J 4/04, E2sa 8/19, E3sd ?, sc 3/33 The following E3sa engines were converted from E2a engines 5252 (10/17 5752, 9/19 5113) J 3/04, E3sa 9/19, E3sd 5/26, sc 12/36 5294, J 8/05, E3sa 4/19, sc 10/37 (the last E3sa to be retired) The following E3sa engines wer converted from E3a engines 301 (4/12 4096), J5/05, E3sa 7/19, sc 6/34 758 (3/13 4138), J3/04, E3sa 8/19, sc 1/34 1219, J 5/05, E3sa 8/19, E3sd 12/26, sc 2/37 1220, J 5/05, E3sa 9/19, sc 1/31 2065, J 8/05 E3sa 7/19, E3sd ?, sc 2/31 2421, J 7/03, E3sa 6/19, sc 3/28 3010, J 10/05, E3sa 2/19, sc 7/31 3011, J 10/05, E3sa 5/19, sc 7/30 4017, J 5/05, E3sa 9/19, sc 9/30 4095, J 5/05, E3sa 9/19 sc 9/31 6243, J 8/04, E3sa 3/19, sc 12/30 So, what we have is a class that numbered, at its peak, 13 engines, two of which were later converted to E3sd engines. Plus a pair of near-sisters in the E2sa class, both later converted to E3sd engines. I have yet to see pictures of these engines, but I imagine they'd look very similar to the more common E7s class. Aside from Edson's roster, Pennsy Power 3 has a table (by Edson, naturally) that includes the E3sa engines, but doesn't mention the E2sa engines (probably for space reasons, also, both were converted to E3sd engines after only a few years as E2sa locomotives). The major specs on the E3sa engine were 22x26 cylinders, 80" drivers, 205lbs boiler pressure, 195000 lbs weight (vs 190,600 for the E3a), and 27409 tf. Now, I return to my E6s, which is now in final assembly. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:36:03 -0400 From: Jeff & Cindy Levan Subject: [PRR] Another Holtwood visual aid X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 87c1c51e5fc4bc4924689f4ab68b627a Everyone, I've been following the Safe Harbor/Holtwood coal dredging thread rather closely. It's quite an interesting aspect of the C&PD/Port Road. Check out this link for another visual aid to knowing the layout of Holtwood. You can navigate to the Safe Harbor view also... http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=1930&Y=22047&Z=18&W=2 Regards, Jeff Levan nsportroad list moderator @onelist ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:17:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Peoria Thread X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 97c5538b681acca0bb2282312f22d60c Richard, The route you describe certainly jives well with the impression I've been getting of the line to Peoria. On the other hand, the sentence from the article did not agree well at all with the picture I've been building up in my mind. --Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Daniels" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:00:44 -0700 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 50aab383f5fa2a4c75c34053a88176cc Doug and all, HUH????? Last time I looked OO was somewhat LARGER than HO scale. In fact my calculator sez the ratio is about 1:72.2. How do you get 1:96 from 4mm = 1foot (which is 304.8mm)? Curiously, Bill Daniels -----Original Message----- From: doug.kisala To: Fred G Rea ; prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:09 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Adding a front coupler to a Mantua Atlantic >Fred, > >Good point! > >Doug > >Fred G Rea wrote: > >> Minor nit pick. Isn't OO scale 1' = 4 mm making its ratio smaller than >> HO's 1:87, not larger (i.e. !:96)? >> >> ___________________________________________________________________ >> Get the Internet just the way you want it. >> Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >> Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:22:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail Autoracks X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: dfb25d614b7aab9cd0c529b68891acc2 Bill for the early seventies you can use the pickups that Life Like has has for years. Although they did use a specialized model of the Ford F-150 called a trailer special which has a longer wheelbase than a normal pickup. I have kitbashed a few of these into short bed models. The detail isn't bad and with a new paint job and some chrome detailing they don't look bad. There is a company called Resin Unlimited that has announced a 67 Ford Galaxie that will be offered in a twelve pak in different colors for $29.95. These will include a seperate interior /frame and wheels. Another good car for the tri'levels are the old Monogram now Con Cor 70 Mustangs. These are nice models for the $5 price range. We still need more common vehicles of the sixties and seventies. We have enough of the Corvette's / Cobra's and 57 Chevies. Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BigHookX45@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:29:43 EST Subject: [PRR] 3 Chime PRR whistle available X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 38e4d289a722cbdfd2b242bb7b148c9d I have in my posession a PRR 3 chime whistle and brass whistle valve casting. I blew it last year and is sounds great. It is available to the first person who makes me the right offer. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". If problems persist, contact "listmaster@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: OnTrackHby@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:30:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for an Interlocking X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: 08e2b2ea62c2e2d63096e04d7e649ffe <